Confirmation : Hn parttime divers

[Marc Verha]

Thoracic morphology in Near Eastern Neandertals and early
modern humans compared with recent modern humans from high and
low altitudes KJ Weinsteina 2008 JHE 54:287-295

Paleoanthropologists have long noted the unique
"hyper-barrel-shaped" Neandertal thorax as inferred from
fragmentary ribs, clavicles, and sterna. Yet scholars disagree
whether the Neandertal thorax represents an adaptation to cold
climates or elevated activity levels.

Given the difficulties of reconstructing overall chest shape
from isolated and fragmentary thoracic skeletal elements, it
is worthwhile comparing Neandertals and contemporaneous early
modern human fossils from the same geographic region to recent
modern human skeletons that are known to have enlarged chests.
This study compares thoracic skeletal morphology in two Near
Eastern Neandertals (Tab?n C1 and Shanidar 3) and two early
modern humans from the same region (Skh?l IV and V) with four
samples of recent modern human skeletons from the Andes (n =
347): two coastal groups and two groups from high altitudes.
The two highland groups, similar to their living descendants,
exhibit morphological evidence of anteroposteriorly deep and
mediolaterally wide chests as part of respiratory adaptations
to high-altitude hypoxia. I calculated the percentage of
deviation of each Neandertal and early modern human fossil
from the means of the four recent modern human samples for
clavicle and rib lengths and curvatures.

Shanidar 3 and Tab?n C1 exhibit ribs that are slightly larger
and less curved than the Andean samples, indicating slightly
larger thoracic skeletons than modern humans who are known to
have enlarged chests in response to increased respiratory
demands. Skh?l IV and V have significantly shorter ribs with
greater curvature suggesting especially narrow thoracic
skeletons. Comparisons with Andean populations suggest that
the enlarged thoraces of Neandertals may reflect high activity
levels, although results from this study do not exclude cold
adaptation as an explanatory factor.

_____

IOW, Hn had thoraxes resembling high altitude Hs populations
with adaptations to high altitude hypoxia.

Curiously, the author concludes that Hn had high activity
levels or perhaps cold adaptations.

- Hn did't live at high altitudes. Many are found at the
coasts.
- Many Hn didn't live in cold environments, incl.the ones from
the study (Shanidar & Tabun).
- Hs with high activity levels don't have thoraxes as in
high altitude Hs populations, but rel.narrow thoraxes
as in Skhul.

Conclusion : If the Hn thorax was adapted to hypoxia, it was
not to high altitude hypoxia (no Hn there), but to the other
situation in which hypoxia is frequent: diving.

This fits with Hn pachyostosis & auditory exostoses, features
almost exclusively seen in diving mammals: slow diving & in
colder water resp.

Hypothesis: coastal Hn seasonally followed the rivers inland.

--Marc Verhaegen http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT
http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/outthere.htm http://users.-
ugent.be/~mvaneech/Fil/Verhaegen_Human_Evolution.html

[Lee Olsen]

On Mar 24, 2:39=A0am, Marc Verhaegen <m_verhae...@skynet.be>
wrote: <snip fabrications>
> Hypothesis: coastal Hn seasonally followed the rivers
> inland.
>
> --Marc

No coconuts, no algae, no crayfish found in Neandertal caves:
Hypothesis falsified.

[Marc Verha]

Savanna Fools deny neandertals at Gibraltar:

Op 24-03-2008 22:06, in artikel 7b23f25b-5217-4209-86bc-7d900-
c9ef2da@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com, Lee Olsen
<paleocity@hotmail.com> schreef:

> On Mar 24, 2:39 am, Marc Verhaegen <m_verhae...@skynet.be>
> wrote: <snip fabrications>
>> Hypothesis: coastal Hn seasonally followed the rivers
>> inland.
>>
>> --Marc
>
> No coconuts, no algae, no crayfish found in Neandertal
> caves: Hypothesis falsified.

[Lee Olsen]

On Mar 24, 4:34=A0pm, Marc Verhaegen
<m_verhae...@skynet.be> wrote:
>
> Op 24-03-2008 22:06, in artikel 7b23f25b-5217-4209-86bc-7d9-
> 00c9ef...@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com, Lee Ols=
en
> <paleoc...@hotmail.com> schreef:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 24, 2:39=A0am, Marc Verhaegen
> > <m_verhae...@skynet.be> wrote: <snip fabrications>
> >> Hypothesis: coastal Hn seasonally followed the rivers
> >> inland.
>
> >> --Marc
>
> > No coconuts, no algae, no crayfish found in Neandertal
> > caves: Hypothesis falsified.

top posting loon says:

> Savanna Fools deny neandertals at Gibraltar:

Wetloon lies about what was said, but what is unusual about
that? First of all, loon, a few sites near the coast do not
negate thousands of sites found inland.

Second, where are the coconuts and crayfish at Gibraltar?
Where is the evidence for coastal Hn seasonally followed the
rivers inland? It can be demonstrated that lithic material was
moved about rather long distances by Neandertals, what would
that have to do with migrations? Nothing, it only means they
needed flint.

Don't give up your day job.

[Lee Olsen]

On Mar 24, 6:34=A0pm, Marc Verhaegen
<m_verhae...@skynet.be> wrote:
> > First of all, loon, a few sites near the coast do not
> > negate thousands of sites found inland.
>
> :-D
>
> Inform, my little boy.

Still obsessed with little boys, eh? Pervert.

http://tinyurl.com/ynwm76 "The evidence indicates that this
Neanderthal moved over a relatively wide range of at least 20
kilometres or even further in their lifetime. Therefore we can
say that Neanderthals did move over their lifetimes and were
not confined to limited geographical areas."

Movement of 20 km really is not far compared to the 50,000 sq.
mi. range of the Iniut (Binford 1983). Later, Hss were moving
seashells inland for a couple hundred km, IIRC, but it is not
demonstrated that was a "seasonal migration" or simply one
group trading with another.

[Marc Verha]

> First of all, loon, a few sites near the coast do not negate
> thousands of sites found inland.

:-D

Inform, my little boy.

[Rich Travs]

Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>
> Thoracic morphology in Near Eastern Neandertals and early
> modern humans compared with recent modern humans from high
> and low altitudes KJ Weinsteina 2008 JHE 54:287-295
>
> Paleoanthropologists have long noted the unique
> "hyper-barrel-shaped" Neandertal thorax as inferred from
> fragmentary ribs, clavicles, and sterna. Yet scholars
> disagree whether the Neandertal thorax represents an
> adaptation to cold climates or elevated activity levels.
>
> Given the difficulties of reconstructing overall chest shape
> from isolated and fragmentary thoracic skeletal elements, it
> is worthwhile comparing Neandertals and contemporaneous
> early modern human fossils from the same geographic region
> to recent modern human skeletons that are known to have
> enlarged chests. This study compares thoracic skeletal
> morphology in two Near Eastern Neandertals (Tab?n C1 and
> Shanidar 3) and two early modern humans from the same region
> (Skh?l IV and V) with four samples of recent modern human
> skeletons from the Andes (n = 347): two coastal groups and
> two groups from high altitudes. The two highland groups,
> similar to their living descendants, exhibit morphological
> evidence of anteroposteriorly deep and mediolaterally wide
> chests as part of respiratory adaptations to high-altitude
> hypoxia. I calculated the percentage of deviation of each
> Neandertal and early modern human fossil from the means of
> the four recent modern human samples for clavicle and rib
> lengths and curvatures.
>
> Shanidar 3 and Tab?n C1 exhibit ribs that are slightly
> larger and less curved than the Andean samples, indicating
> slightly larger thoracic skeletons than modern humans who
> are known to have enlarged chests in response to increased
> respiratory demands. Skh?l IV and V have significantly
> shorter ribs with greater curvature suggesting especially
> narrow thoracic skeletons. Comparisons with Andean
> populations suggest that the enlarged thoraces of
> Neandertals may reflect high activity levels, although
> results from this study do not exclude cold adaptation as an
> explanatory factor.

From

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17949791

which you seem afraid to include.

> IOW, Hn had thoraxes resembling high altitude Hs populations
> with adaptations to high altitude hypoxia.
>
> Curiously, the author concludes that Hn had high activity
> levels or perhaps cold adaptations.
>
> - Hn did't live at high altitudes. Many are found at the
> coasts.

Altay mountains in Siberia.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v449/n7164/full/nature-
06193.html

> - Many Hn didn't live in cold environments, incl.the ones
> from the study (Shanidar & Tabun).
> - Hs with high activity levels don't have thoraxes as in
> high altitude Hs populations, but rel.narrow thoraxes as
> in Skhul.
>
> Conclusion : If the Hn thorax was adapted to hypoxia, it was
> not to high altitude hypoxia (no Hn there), but to the other
> situation in which hypoxia is frequent: diving.
>
> This fits with Hn pachyostosis & auditory exostoses,
> features almost exclusively seen in diving mammals: slow
> diving & in colder water resp.
>
> Hypothesis: coastal Hn seasonally followed the rivers
> inland.

To follow the herds?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060118210756.htm

[Rich Travs]

Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>
> > First of all, loon, a few sites near the coast do not
> > negate thousands of sites found inland.
>
> :-D
>
> Inform, my little boy.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v449/n7164/full/nature0-
6193.html ... Thus, the geographic range of Neanderthals is
likely to have extended at least 2,000 km further to the east
than commonly assumed. ...

[Marc Verha]

Op 30-03-2008 07:46, in artikel
47EF292F.4B5F197D@hotmMOVEail.com, Rich Travsky
<traRvEsky@hotmMOVEail.com> schreef:

> Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>>
>> Thoracic morphology in Near Eastern Neandertals and early
>> modern humans compared with recent modern humans from high
>> and low altitudes KJ Weinsteina 2008 JHE 54:287-295
>>
>> Paleoanthropologists have long noted the unique
>> "hyper-barrel-shaped" Neandertal thorax as inferred from
>> fragmentary ribs, clavicles, and sterna. Yet scholars
>> disagree whether the Neandertal thorax represents an
>> adaptation to cold climates or elevated activity levels.
>>
>> Given the difficulties of reconstructing overall chest
>> shape from isolated and fragmentary thoracic skeletal
>> elements, it is worthwhile comparing Neandertals and
>> contemporaneous early modern human fossils from the same
>> geographic region to recent modern human skeletons that are
>> known to have enlarged chests. This study compares thoracic
>> skeletal morphology in two Near Eastern Neandertals (Tab?n
>> C1 and Shanidar 3) and two early modern humans from the
>> same region (Skh?l IV and V) with four samples of recent
>> modern human skeletons from the Andes (n = 347): two
>> coastal groups and two groups from high altitudes. The two
>> highland groups, similar to their living descendants,
>> exhibit morphological evidence of anteroposteriorly deep
>> and mediolaterally wide chests as part of respiratory
>> adaptations to high-altitude hypoxia. I calculated the
>> percentage of deviation of each Neandertal and early modern
>> human fossil from the means of the four recent modern human
>> samples for clavicle and rib lengths and curvatures.
>>
>> Shanidar 3 and Tab?n C1 exhibit ribs that are slightly
>> larger and less curved than the Andean samples, indicating
>> slightly larger thoracic skeletons than modern humans who
>> are known to have enlarged chests in response to increased
>> respiratory demands. Skh?l IV and V have significantly
>> shorter ribs with greater curvature suggesting especially
>> narrow thoracic skeletons. Comparisons with Andean
>> populations suggest that the enlarged thoraces of
>> Neandertals may reflect high activity levels, although
>> results from this study do not exclude cold adaptation as
>> an explanatory factor.

> From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17949791 which you
> seem afraid to include.

Are you really so stupid that you don't understand what "JHE
54:287" means?? You're a ridiuculous child, Travsky, like the
other Savanna Fantasts here.

>> IOW, Hn had thoraxes resembling high altitude Hs
>> populations with adaptations to high altitude hypoxia.
>>
>> Curiously, the author concludes that Hn had high activity
>> levels or perhaps cold adaptations.
>>
>> - Hn did't live at high altitudes. Many are found at the
>> coasts.
>
> Altay mountains in Siberia.> http://www.nature.com/nature/j-
> ournal/v449/n7164/full/nature06193.html

Now are you claiming that the Hn at Gibraltar had thoraxes
like Andean highlanders?? Grow up, little boy.

>> - Many Hn didn't live in cold environments, incl.the ones
>> from the study (Shanidar & Tabun).
>> - Hs with high activity levels don't have thoraxes as in
>> high altitude Hs populations, but rel.narrow thoraxes as
>> in Skhul. Conclusion : If the Hn thorax was adapted to
>> hypoxia, it was not to high altitude hypoxia (no Hn
>> there), but to the other situation in which hypoxia is
>> frequent: diving. This fits with Hn pachyostosis &
>> auditory exostoses, features almost exclusively seen in
>> diving mammals: slow diving & in colder water resp.
>> Hypothesis: coastal Hn seasonally followed the rivers
>> inland.

> To follow the herds? http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2-
> 006/01/060118210756.htm

:-D Repeating that the earth is flat doesn't make it flat, my
:little boy.

Grow up, SF: ear exostoses, chronic hypoxemia, pachyostosis -
each of these 3 features leaves no doubt that (some?all) Hn
frequently dived. This fits the protruding midface (not seen
in cold-adapted mammals), the broad feet (not seen in
cursorial mammals) & all other features in which Hn differs
from Hs. I see no reason why they couldn't have killed animals
in shallow water (eg, herds crossing rivers, animals trapped
in swamps etc.), but it's riduculous to believe they ever ran
after mammoths or horses over the steppe. There's no doubt
they (all populations?) spent a lot of time in water, although
possibly seasonally, probably usually not in salt water (Hn
has much larger paranasal sinuses & less pachyostosis than
He), & possibly mostly the adult men.

http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/outthere.htm
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT

[Marc Verha]

Op 30-03-2008 07:47, in artikel
47EF2968.E9A17373@hotmMOVEail.com, Rich Travsky
<traRvEsky@hotmMOVEail.com> schreef:

> Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>>
>>> First of all, loon, a few sites near the coast do not
>>> negate thousands of sites found inland.
>>
>> :-D
>>
>> Inform, my little boy.
>
> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v449/n7164/full/natur-
> e06193.html ... Thus, the geographic range of Neanderthals
> is likely to have extended at least 2,000 km further to the
> east than commonly assumed. ...

Yes, my boy, these don't negate the coastal finds.

[Lee Olsen]

On Mar 30, 2:32=A0pm, Marc Verhaegen
<m_verhae...@skynet.be> wrote:

> Are you really so stupid that you don't understand what

a mountain beaver is????

First these amateurs claim they did an "extensive survey" of
the literature... Verhaegen et al. (2002) Page 213: "Our
extensive survey of the literature [17]" (Who is "[17]"? They
cite themselves, who else would made such a claim)

Of course their survey was proven not to be "extensive" at all
as demonstrated by this totally false statement:

TREE 2002 Page 213-14: "... capybaras Hydrochoerus
hydrochaeris and mountain-beavers Aplodontia rufa [24]. Both
these semi-aquatic rodents feed mainly on riverside herbs,
grasses and the bark of young trees."

Anyone even remotely familiar with the literature knows
mountain beavers are not semi-aquatic and any survey, let
alone "extensive survery" would find this.

These amateur incompetents then go on to,
"Acknowledgements" (page
216), thank "four anonymous referees for corrections and
discussions" who didn't know anymore about biology than
the authors themselves or they would have picked up on
such an obvious error. Talk about incompetence confirmed
by more incompetence, this is sloppy research at its
worst. The four anaonymous referees proved the journal
TREE uses amateurs to peer review their papers.

MV et al. then go on to claim: "suggests that most hominids
might have dwelt in 'wet' rather than 'dry' habitats, and this
has been confirmed by recent discoveries [14,18,19]."

A non-extensive "survey" of sloppy work then leads to the
conclusion that "A.robustus =3D wading"? This isn't even a
good example of spiritual imagination. "Garbage in =3D garbage
out" is the most parsimonious conclusion for this despicable
opinion paper:

M Verhaegen, P-F Puech & S Munro 2002 Aquarboreal ancestors?
Trends in Ecology & Evolution 17:212-7

[Spiznet]

It is obvious that Hn never had legal driver licenses, so if
they were part-time drivers, they would have been driving
illegally!!?!?

Are they talking about those jeeps and guns that Jimm McGurk
keeps talking about in your macro?? The Hn would swoop down
into the savanna, scoop up a few Hs wimmen and hi-tail it back
up to the European interior.

All in a day's work back in 64my!!!

-spiznet

On Mar 30, 7:54=A0pm, Lee Olsen <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 30, 2:32=A0pm, Marc Verhaegen
> <m_verhae...@skynet.be> wrote:
>
> > Are you really so stupid that you don't understand what
>
> a mountain beaver is????
>
> First these =A0amateurs claim they did =A0an "extensive
> survey" of the literature... Verhaegen et al. (2002) Page
> 213: "Our extensive survey of the literature [17]" (Who
> is "[17]"? They cite themselves, who else would made such
> a claim)
>
> Of course their survey was proven not to be "extensive" at
> all as demonstrated =A0by this totally false statement:
>
> TREE 2002 Page 213-14: "... capybaras Hydrochoerus
> hydrochaeris and mountain-beavers Aplodontia rufa [24]. Both
> these semi-aquatic rodents feed mainly on riverside herbs,
> grasses and the bark of young trees."
>
> Anyone even remotely familiar with the literature knows
> mountain beavers are not =A0semi-aquatic and any survey, let
> alone "extensive survery" would find this.
>
> =A0These amateur incompetents then go on to,
> "Acknowledgements" =A0(page
> 216), thank "four anonymous referees for corrections and
> discussions" who didn't know anymore about biology than
> the authors themselves or they would have picked up on
> such an obvious error. Talk about incompetence confirmed
> by more incompetence, this is sloppy research at its
> worst. =A0The four anaonymous referees proved the
> journal TREE uses =A0amateurs to peer review their
> papers.
>
> MV et al. then go on to claim: "suggests that most hominids
> might have dwelt in 'wet' rather than 'dry' habitats, and
> this has been confirmed by recent discoveries [14,18,19]."
>
> A non-extensive "survey" of sloppy work =A0then leads to the
> conclusion that "A.robustus =3D wading"? This isn't even a
> good example of spiritual imagination. =A0"Garbage in =3D
> garbage out" is the most parsimonious conclusion for this
> despicable opinion paper:
>
> =A0M Verhaegen, P-F Puech & S Munro 2002 =A0Aquarboreal
> ancestors? =A0Trends in Ecology & Evolution 17:212-7

[Lee Olsen]

Marc Verhaegen <m_verhae...@skynet.be> wrote:

Message-ID: <C3FDE43F.FC0B%m_verhaegen@skynet.be> Why do you
believe the "spears" could not have been used for fish?

Proof this wetloon doesn't know anymore about fishing than he
does about diving.

[Rich Travs]

Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> Op 30-03-2008 07:46, in artikel
> 47EF292F.4B5F197D@hotmMOVEail.com, Rich Travsky
> <traRvEsky@hotmMOVEail.com> schreef:
> > Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> >>
> >> Thoracic morphology in Near Eastern Neandertals and early
> >> modern humans compared with recent modern humans from
> >> high and low altitudes KJ Weinsteina 2008 JHE 54:287-295
> >>
> >> Paleoanthropologists have long noted the unique
> >> "hyper-barrel-shaped" Neandertal thorax as inferred from
> >> fragmentary ribs, clavicles, and sterna. Yet scholars
> >> disagree whether the Neandertal thorax represents an
> >> adaptation to cold climates or elevated activity levels.
> >>
> >> Given the difficulties of reconstructing overall chest
> >> shape from isolated and fragmentary thoracic skeletal
> >> elements, it is worthwhile comparing Neandertals and
> >> contemporaneous early modern human fossils from the same
> >> geographic region to recent modern human skeletons that
> >> are known to have enlarged chests. This study compares
> >> thoracic skeletal morphology in two Near Eastern
> >> Neandertals (Tab?n C1 and Shanidar 3) and two early
> >> modern humans from the same region (Skh?l IV and V) with
> >> four samples of recent modern human skeletons from the
> >> Andes (n = 347): two coastal groups and two groups from
> >> high altitudes. The two highland groups, similar to their
> >> living descendants, exhibit morphological evidence of
> >> anteroposteriorly deep and mediolaterally wide chests as
> >> part of respiratory adaptations to high-altitude hypoxia.
> >> I calculated the percentage of deviation of each
> >> Neandertal and early modern human fossil from the means
> >> of the four recent modern human samples for clavicle and
> >> rib lengths and curvatures.
> >>
> >> Shanidar 3 and Tab?n C1 exhibit ribs that are slightly
> >> larger and less curved than the Andean samples,
> >> indicating slightly larger thoracic skeletons than modern
> >> humans who are known to have enlarged chests in response
> >> to increased respiratory demands. Skh?l IV and V have
> >> significantly shorter ribs with greater curvature
> >> suggesting especially narrow thoracic skeletons.
> >> Comparisons with Andean populations suggest that the
> >> enlarged thoraces of Neandertals may reflect high
> >> activity levels, although results from this study do not
> >> exclude cold adaptation as an explanatory factor.
>
> > From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17949791 which you
> > seem afraid to include.
>
> Are you really so stupid that you don't understand what "JHE
> 54:287" means?? You're a ridiuculous child, Travsky, like
> the other Savanna Fantasts here.

An online reference is the polite thing to provide, Marc.

> >> IOW, Hn had thoraxes resembling high altitude Hs
> >> populations with adaptations to high altitude hypoxia.
> >>
> >> Curiously, the author concludes that Hn had high activity
> >> levels or perhaps cold adaptations.
> >>
> >> - Hn did't live at high altitudes. Many are found at the
> >> coasts.
> >
> > Altay mountains in Siberia.> http://www.nature.com/nature-
> > /journal/v449/n7164/full/nature06193.html
>
> Now are you claiming that the Hn at Gibraltar had thoraxes
> like Andean highlanders?? Grow up, little boy.

Where does it say that, jongen? You claimed "Hn did't live at
high altitudes" and I showed you wrong.

> >> - Many Hn didn't live in cold environments, incl.the ones
> >> from the study (Shanidar & Tabun).
> >> - Hs with high activity levels don't have thoraxes as in
> >> high altitude Hs populations, but rel.narrow thoraxes
> >> as in Skhul. Conclusion : If the Hn thorax was adapted
> >> to hypoxia, it was not to high altitude hypoxia (no Hn
> >> there), but to the other situation in which hypoxia is
> >> frequent: diving. This fits with Hn pachyostosis &
> >> auditory exostoses, features almost exclusively seen in
> >> diving mammals: slow diving & in colder water resp.
> >> Hypothesis: coastal Hn seasonally followed the rivers
> >> inland.
>
> > To follow the herds? http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases-
> > /2006/01/060118210756.htm
>
> :-D Repeating that the earth is flat doesn't make it flat,
> :my little boy.
>

Grow up, jongen. Accept that neanderthals hunted and lived at
higher altitudes.

[Rich Travs]

Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>
> Op 30-03-2008 07:47, in artikel
> 47EF2968.E9A17373@hotmMOVEail.com, Rich Travsky
> <traRvEsky@hotmMOVEail.com> schreef:
>
> > Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> >>
> >>> First of all, loon, a few sites near the coast do not
> >>> negate thousands of sites found inland.
> >>
> >> :-D
> >>
> >> Inform, my little boy.
> >
> > http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v449/n7164/full/nat-
> > ure06193.html ... Thus, the geographic range of
> > Neanderthals is likely to have extended at least 2,000 km
> > further to the east than commonly assumed. ...
>
> Yes, my boy, these don't negate the coastal finds.

And coastal finds aren't the rule, jongen.

[Lee Olsen]

On Apr 7, 12:39 pm, Marc Verhaegen
<m_verhae...@skynet.be> wrote:

> Ever heard of Ice Ages =3D levels 100 m lower than today?

Ever hear of moving back when the tide comes In?

> Ever heard of Mojokerto delta?

Huffman, O. F, and Y. Zaim. (2003). Mojokerto Delta, East
Jawa: Paleoenvironment of Homo modjokertensis--First Results.
Submitted to Journal of Mineral Technology, v.10, n. 2.

"Test excavations at the hominid site during 2001 and 2002
field seasons produced 250 fossil vertebrates. The nature of
the recovery suggests that additional hominid remains may be
found in the bed. Fossils from the excavations and nearby
surface collecting suggest that deer, muntjak, bovids, pig,
hippopotamus, rhinoceros, Stegodon, and large cat inhabited
the delta, together with Homo erectus.

The delta plain included--and perhaps was largely covered
with-- grasslands. Stable-carbon isotope signatures (=E413C)
have been obtained from the enamel of teeth of bovids,
cervids, and other animals from the hominid bed and other
localities in the hominid-bearing sequence in the Perning
district. This is the first use the stable-isotope method to
characterize the paleoenvironment of Homo erectus in Jawa. The
results encourage the more widespread use of the technique.
Most of the carbon isotope results fit the C4 photosynthetic
pathway characteristic of tropical grasses."

> Flores? How did they get there? Flying?

Did lemurs fly to Madagascar?

> Thru the savanna?

Cheetahs got all the way to China eating algae?

[Marc Verha]

SF thinks Gibraltar = high altitude:
>>>> - Hn did't live at high altitudes. Many are found at the
>>>> coasts.
>>>
>>> Altay mountains in Siberia.> http://www.nature.com/nature-
>>> /journal/v449/n7164/full/nature06193.html
>>
>> Now are you claiming that the Hn at Gibraltar had thoraxes
>> like Andean highlanders?? Grow up, little boy.
>
> Where does it say that, jongen? You claimed "Hn did't live
> at high altitudes" and I showed you wrong.
>
>>>> - Many Hn didn't live in cold environments, incl.the ones
>>>> from the study (Shanidar & Tabun).
>>>> - Hs with high activity levels don't have thoraxes as in
>>>> high altitude Hs populations, but rel.narrow thoraxes
>>>> as in Skhul. Conclusion : If the Hn thorax was adapted
>>>> to hypoxia, it was not to high altitude hypoxia (no Hn
>>>> there), but to the other situation in which hypoxia is
>>>> frequent: diving. This fits with Hn pachyostosis &
>>>> auditory exostoses, features almost exclusively seen in
>>>> diving mammals: slow diving & in colder water resp.
>>>> Hypothesis: coastal Hn seasonally followed the rivers
>>>> inland.
>>
>>> To follow the herds? http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases-
>>> /2006/01/060118210756.htm
>>
>> :-D

> Grow up, jongen. Accept that neanderthals hunted and lived
> at higher altitudes.

Repeating that the earth is flat doesn't make it flat, my
little boy.

[Marc Verha]

SF:
>>>>> First of all, loon, a few sites near the coast do not
>>>>> negate thousands of sites found inland.

me:
>>>> :-D Inform, my little boy.

>>> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v449/n7164/full/nat-
>>> ure06193.html ... Thus, the geographic range of
>>> Neanderthals is likely to have extended at least 2,000 km
>>> further to the east than commonly assumed. ...

>> Yes, my boy, these don't negate the coastal finds.

> And coastal finds aren't the rule, jongen.

Ever heard of Ice Ages = levels 100 m lower than today? Ever
heard of Mojokerto delta? Flores? How did they get there?
Flying? Thru the savanna?

[Lee Olsen]

On Apr 7, 3:42=A0pm, Marc Verhaegen
<m_verhae...@skynet.be> wrote:

>
> SF:
>
> > Ever hear of moving back when the tide comes In?
>
> Our little boy

What would a pervert know about it?

> Ever heard of Mojokerto delta?

Huffman, O. F, and Y. Zaim. (2003). Mojokerto Delta, East
Jawa: Paleoenvironment of Homo modjokertensis--First Results.
Submitted to Journal of Mineral Technology, v.10, n. 2.

"Test excavations at the hominid site during 2001 and 2002
field seasons produced 250 fossil vertebrates. The nature of
the recovery suggests that additional hominid remains may be
found in the bed. Fossils from the excavations and nearby
surface collecting suggest that deer, muntjak, bovids, pig,
hippopotamus, rhinoceros, Stegodon, and large cat inhabited
the delta, together with Homo erectus.

The delta plain included--and perhaps was largely covered
with-- grasslands. Stable-carbon isotope signatures (=E413C)
have been obtained from the enamel of teeth of bovids,
cervids, and other animals from the hominid bed and other
localities in the hominid-bearing sequence in the Perning
district. This is the first use the stable-isotope method to
characterize the paleoenvironment of Homo erectus in Jawa. The
results encourage the more widespread use of the technique.
Most of the carbon isotope results fit the C4 photosynthetic
pathway characteristic of tropical grasses."

[Lee Olsen]

On Apr 21, 4:01=A0am, Marc Verhaegen
<m_verhae...@skynet.be> wrote:
> Op 21-04-2008 05:59, in artikel
> 480C1138.400FB...@hotmMOVEail.com, Rich Travsky
> <traRvE...@hotmMOVEail.com> schreef:
>
>
>
>
>
> >> SF:
> >>>>>>> First of all, loon, a few sites near the coast do
> >>>>>>> not negate thous=
ands
> >>>>>>> of sites found inland.
> >> me:
> >>>>>> :-D =A0Inform, my little boy.
> >>>>> =A0http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v449/n7164/fu-
> >>>>> ll/nature06193.=
html
> >>>>> =A0... =A0Thus, the geographic range of Neanderthals
> >>>>> is likely to have exte=
nded at
> >>>>> least =A02,000 km further to the east than commonly
> >>>>> assumed. =A0...
> >>>> Yes, my boy, these don't negate the coastal finds.
> >>> And coastal finds aren't the rule, jongen.
> >> Ever heard of Ice Ages =3D levels 100 m lower than today?
> >> Ever heard of Mojokerto delta? Flores? =A0How did they
> >> get there? =A0Fl=
ying?
> >> Thru the savanna?
> > How did they get to southern Siberia, Marc? Swim uphill?
>

:-D =A0Wetloon Fantasts are stupid stupid stupid: they
:now think
there's no water inland.

> river valley =3D freshwater: explains why Hn has less
> dense bones

So, you admit He didn't live in river valleys, since they have
denser bones?

[Rich Travs]

Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>
> Op 21-04-2008 05:44, in artikel
> 480C0D9C.31D3F7AF@hotmMOVEail.com, Rich Travsky
> <traRvEsky@hotmMOVEail.com> schreef:
>
> >> SF thinks Gibraltar = high altitude:
>
> > No one said anything like that, Marc.
>
> Why do you have to lie? Your nonsense implied that: saying
> that Hn has a hypoxic thorax form because they lived in high
> altitudes is stupid stupid stupid: Gibraltar is no Andes &
> no Himalaya.

I posted material from an article from Nature. You claimed

Hn did't live at high altitudes

I showed they did and the Nature article puts that in the
Altay mountains. Look that up on a map... Nothing to do with
Gibraltar.

> The most reasonable explanation left for their hypoxic
> thorax form is that they spent a lot of time diving. This
> fits all other features of Hn we know (protruding midface,
> flat & long skull, ear exostoses, pachyostosis, broad hands
> & feet & forearms, broad torsos, huge brains etc.). There's
> *nothing* that excludes that Hn were waterside omnivores.
>
> As for the Nature link below: they *believe* that Hn did
> nothing but running over the plains after bovids or
> woolly rhinos.

Quote where in the article they claim that ->

You're a liar, Marc. Intellectually dishonest.

> Other evidence (tools, dentition, taurodonty, microwear
> etc.) suggests they ate a lot of other foods incl.cattails &
> dried fish. The simplest answer is: Hn were waterside &
> omnivorous. It's easier to catch a horse or whatever prey in
> the water than outside the water. Got it, my boy?

There is more game than there is waterside, Marc. Millions of
acres of land are a bigger resource than riversides or coasts.
Note the date on this link:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18396318 J Hum Evol.
2008 Apr 5

Isotopic dietary analysis of a Neanderthal and associated
fauna from the site of Jonzac (Charente-Maritime), France.
... We found that the Jonzac Neanderthal had isotopic values
consistent with a diet in which the main protein sources were
large herbivores, particularly bovids and horses. ...

Try keeping warm in the Altay with a coat made from fish.

You're wrong again, Marc.

> >>>>>> - Hn did't live at high altitudes. Many are found at
> >>>>>> the coasts.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Altay mountains in Siberia.> http://www.nature.com/na-
> >>>>> ture/journal/v449/n7164/full/nature06193.html
> >>>>
> >>>> Now are you claiming that the Hn at Gibraltar had
> >>>> thoraxes like Andean highlanders?? Grow up, little boy.
> >>>
> >>> Where does it say that, jongen? You claimed "Hn did't
> >>> live at high altitudes" and I showed you wrong.
> >>>
> >>>>>> - Many Hn didn't live in cold environments, incl.the
> >>>>>> ones from the study (Shanidar & Tabun).
> >>>>>> - Hs with high activity levels don't have thoraxes as
> >>>>>> in high altitude Hs populations, but rel.narrow
> >>>>>> thoraxes as in Skhul. Conclusion : If the Hn thorax
> >>>>>> was adapted to hypoxia, it was not to high altitude
> >>>>>> hypoxia (no Hn there), but to the other situation
> >>>>>> in which hypoxia is frequent: diving. This fits
> >>>>>> with Hn pachyostosis & auditory exostoses, features
> >>>>>> almost exclusively seen in diving mammals: slow
> >>>>>> diving & in colder water resp. Hypothesis: coastal
> >>>>>> Hn seasonally followed the rivers inland.
> >>>>
> >>>>> To follow the herds? http://www.sciencedaily.com/rele-
> >>>>> ases/2006/01/060118210756.htm
> >>>>
> >>>> :-D
> >>
> >>> Grow up, jongen. Accept that neanderthals hunted and
> >>> lived at higher altitudes.
> >>
> >> Repeating that the earth is flat doesn't make it flat, my
> >> little boy.
> >
> > Marc, did you bother to follow the Nature link?
> >
> > http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v449/n7164/full/nat-
> > ure06193.html

[Rich Travs]

Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>
> Op 21-04-2008 05:59, in artikel
> 480C1138.400FB3A9@hotmMOVEail.com, Rich Travsky
> <traRvEsky@hotmMOVEail.com> schreef:
>
> >> SF:
> >>>>>>> First of all, loon, a few sites near the coast do
> >>>>>>> not negate thousands of sites found inland.
>
> >> me:
> >>>>>> :-D Inform, my little boy.
>
> >>>>> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v449/n7164/full-
> >>>>> /nature06193.html ... Thus, the geographic range of
> >>>>> Neanderthals is likely to have extended at least
> >>>>> 2,000 km further to the east than commonly assumed.
> >>>>> ...
>
> >>>> Yes, my boy, these don't negate the coastal finds.
>
> >>> And coastal finds aren't the rule, jongen.
>
> >> Ever heard of Ice Ages = levels 100 m lower than today?
> >> Ever heard of Mojokerto delta? Flores? How did they get
> >> there? Flying? Thru the savanna?
>
> > How did they get to southern Siberia, Marc? Swim uphill?
>
> :-D Savanna Fantasts are stupid stupid stupid: they now
> :think there's no
> water inland.

SO they walked along the river side :-D

> If I were you, I'd take an atlas & looked where Teshik-Tash
> is/was situated: yes, my boy, river valley = freshwater:
> explains why Hn has less dense bones & larger para-nasal
> sinuses than He. BTW, there's a lot of tectonic activity in
> these regions: hot lakes are/were not rare.

[Rich Travs]

Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>
> >>>> SF thinks Gibraltar = high altitude:
>
> SF:
> >>> No one said anything like that, Marc.
>
> >> Why do you have to lie? Your nonsense implied that:
> >> saying that Hn has a hypoxic thorax form because they
> >> lived in high altitudes is stupid stupid stupid:
> >> Gibraltar is no Andes & no Himalaya.
>
> SF:
> > I posted material from an article from Nature.
>
> Good boy, I don't remember, but thanks.

Material which showed you wrong.

> > You claimed Hn did't live at high altitudes
>
> Liar.
>
> Travsky, you lack logical insight: you keep confusing "some"
> & "all".

Marc, you're just a pathetic liar.

Here's where you said that:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.anthropology.paleo/msg/f89-
f2f4c99a3f6f4?dmode=source Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 10:39:47
+0100 Subject: Confirmation : Hn parttime divers From: Marc
Verhaegen <m_verhae...@skynet.be> Newsgroups:
sci.anthropology.paleo ...
- Hn did't live at high altitudes. Many are found at the
coasts. ...

You are caught lying again.

[Rich Travs]

Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> SF:
> >>>>>>>>> First of all, loon, a few sites near the coast do
> >>>>>>>>> not negate thousands of sites found inland.
>
> >>>>>>>> :-D Inform, my little boy.
>
> SF:
> >>>>>>> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v449/n7164/fu-
> >>>>>>> ll/nature06193.html ... Thus, the geographic range
> >>>>>>> of Neanderthals is likely to have extended at least
> >>>>>>> 2,000 km further to the east than commonly assumed.
>
> >>>>>> Yes, my boy, these don't negate the coastal finds.
>
> SF:
> >>>>> And coastal finds aren't the rule, jongen.
>
> >>>> Ever heard of Ice Ages = levels 100 m lower than today?
> >>>> Ever heard of Mojokerto delta? Flores? How did they get
> >>>> there? Flying? Thru the savanna?
>
> SF:
> >>> How did they get to southern Siberia, Marc? Swim uphill?
>
> >> :-D Savanna Fantasts are stupid stupid stupid: they now
> >> :think there's no
> >> water inland.
>
> > SO they walked along the river side :-D
>
> Good boy, you finally got it: they followed the water
> inland! :-)

They followed the herds. :-) Game is far more abundant on the
open steppes and plains than fish.

> >> If I were you, I'd take an atlas & looked where
> >> Teshik-Tash is/was situated: yes, my boy, river valley =
> >> freshwater: explains why Hn has less dense bones & larger
> >> para-nasal sinuses than He. BTW, there's a lot of
> >> tectonic activity in these regions: hot lakes are/were
> >> not rare.