Overall chronic muscle/joint pain

[Songwriter]

I have a friend who I would like to help. She's 82 and in constant pain, can't figure out why. Only thing she mentioned was taking a drug one time that the doc said could cause drug-induced lupus. Never heard of that but I read up on it and yep, it's real. Wow, now that's a serious side effect! Drugs are evil!

Drug-induced lupus is supposed to go away when you get off the drug.

These are things that come to mind.

1) fibromyalgia, the mystery disease
2) gluten intolerance
3) aspartame
4) statin drug

I don't know if she takes a statin, I will ask but she eats the typical SAD and she does drink diet cokes.

She is fighting depression due to constant pain. Says it's all over, like muscle and joint pain. She does not have gnarly joints like you see with rheumatoid arthritis, so, I suppose it's not that.

[sveltecelt]

hi songwriter
It sounds like your friend has to stop those diet colas! The aspartme can contribute to/worsen depression. The caffiene can leach minerals including magnesium. Not enough magnesium in her diet can contribute to chronic pain

Also, as a hypothyroidism sufferer myself, I know that depression and chronic pain are symptoms of hypothyroidism. This is pretty common in post-menopausal women. Your friend should get her thyroid checked!

Also, the SAD diet contributes to hypothyroidism because of all the hidden soy, wheat/gluten, refined oils. She needs to get away from those foods!

Is she willing to make any dietary changes or able to see a doc about possible blood tests?

I hope she gets better. Best of luck to you both! :)

[NoWhammies]

I suffered overall pain for years. The culprit for me was chronic inflammation caused by an undianosed dairy allergy. Once I figured it out and cut out the dairy, the chronic pain went away. Other food sensitivities that can cause this type of thing can be wheat (and other gluten products), soy, nuts, eggs....all sorts of food intolerances can cause massive inflammation throughout the body. Trust me - I suffered for years - severe pain that no doctor could figure out. Now - I am a different person - all because of dairy - in all of its forms. I have to read labels religiously and avoid any dairy derivative, including anything with whey, lactose and casien. It is in a lot of stuff - so I pretty much make everything from scratch and don't buy processed foods, don't eat butter or margarine, etc. It's worth it though, for how much better I feel. :)

[Nancy LC]

Gluten intolerance caused my joint pain, it isn't an uncommon side-effect. But it seems like dairy spurs muscle cramps for me sometimes. Oh man, she's taking statins too? Those would definitely cause the muscle pain. She should discontinue them! Why would they put anyone that old on a statin?

Yes, drug induced lupus is real. But it should be gone once you stop the drugs. There are also innumerable autoimmune diseases that can cause joint pain. But the easiest thing to do is try a GF diet. It took a few months for the pain to go away, but I had my IBS clear up in 2 days of going GF.

[Zuleikaa]

The only thing left to mention is vitamin D defiiciency.

This might be apt because of her age, the elderly are prone to vitamin D deficiency because their ability to make it from the sun decreases with age. The elderly are also more suseptable to vitamin D deficiency because they tend to not get out in the sun as much as younger people and have a more shut in lifestyle.

Vitamin D deficiency is quite common in the elderly and expresses itself as unlocalized bone and muscle pain as well as osteoporosis.

A vitamin D test called 25[OH]D can easily eliminate the possibility of vitamin D deficiency, any result under 60 ng/nmol is considered deficient.

A non clinical indication of vitamin D deficiency is to press down on the breast bone for 5 seconds. If pain occurs and remains when the pressure is removed, it's a good indication of the presence of vitamin D deficiency.

[LessLiz]

Actually, there is another thing to consider: plainly the amount of carbs from any source. I am finding that for me, the source makes zero difference.

For the last 3 weeks I've eaten 100 - 125g carbs per day. I cannot describe the extent of the pain I've been in. Since March 10 I've been avoiding everything with gluten in it -- still in intense pain. Almost impossible to walk pain. In the past I've dropped dairy to no avail.

So looking at my food diary and my health journal, I found that the pain began creeping up when carbs started creeping up, and that when carbs hit the 100g per day level the pain skyrocketed. On Sunday I dropped to 15g carbs. By Sunday afternoon the pain was mostly gone. On Monday I was in ketosis. The pain is continuing to decline, and is now an occasional twinge.

The pain was so intense last week that I could not sleep. I was sleeping less than 3 hours a night. I was maxed out on Advil. I slept the last 2 nights without awakening, and am not taking any pain killer.

I'd be willing to bet that the actual mechanism causing the pain is strongly affected either by carbs in general or something in the particular carbs I've been eating, but I don't think its gluten or dairy. The big thing for me is not being in pain.

[Rose1942]

Don't forget to find out if she is taking a statin, or was taking one for a long time. Severe muscle pain is one of the side of statins (among others). Even if she was taking a statin and is no longer, this is to be considered because sometimes the damage is irreversible.
http://www.spacedoc.net/muscle_pain_statins.htm

[MizKitty]

Statins all but dissolved my muscles, made me in constant pain all the time, made me so weak I couldn't walk to the end of my driveway and back. And caused depression.

When I finally learned it was the statin (at the spacedoc site above) and told my doctor I was having these known side effects, he waved it off and told me it couldn't be the statins. I asked him to report it and he wouldn't. It's taken me 18 months to recover just to feeling semi-normal again.

The problem is, if your 82 year old friend is on a statin, convincing her that they do nothing for women, and that it's causing her problems, when her doctor is telling her to take it, won't be easy.

[Hutchinson]

The only thing left to mention is vitamin D defiiciency.

This might be apt because of her age, the elderly are prone to vitamin D deficiency because their ability to make it from the sun decreases with age. The elderly are also more suseptable to vitamin D deficiency because they tend to not get out in the sun as much as younger people and have a more shut in lifestyle.

Vitamin D deficiency is quite common in the elderly and expresses itself as unlocalized bone and muscle pain as well as osteoporosis.

A vitamin D test called 25[OH]D can easily eliminate the possibility of vitamin D deficiency, any result under 60 ng/nmol is considered deficient.

A non clinical indication of vitamin D deficiency is to press down on the breast bone for 5 seconds. If pain occurs and remains when the pressure is removed, it's a good indication of the presence of vitamin D deficiency.Expert Opinion Paper on Vitamin D Deficiency
Diagnosis and Treatment of Vitamin D Deficiency (http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/PDFs/diagnosis-vitdd.pdf) is a new paper by four vitamin D experts. Vitamin D insufficiency is extremely common these days. In the UK most adults average 40nmol/l in the Winter and at best in the Summer achieve only 70nmol/l
40ng/ml or 100nmol/l is the level at which our body's immediate needs are met starts to build up stores.

The figures in this paper show the patterns for (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=17218096) those who spend a lot of time in the sun and have a natural vitamin d status and the figure shows a similar pattern can be achieved if people take and EFFECTIVE amount of vitamin d.

I take 5000iu/D3/daily I live at latitude 52 in the UK (cloudy island) so don't get a lot of summer sunshine. My status was 49ng/ml or 147.5nmol/l at the end of summer.

[Wifezilla]

Chronic pain is a vitamin D deficiency symptom. Fish oil is also helpful for joint pain. I take both daily.

[Hutchinson]

Chronic pain is a vitamin D deficiency symptom. Fish oil is also helpful for joint pain. I take both daily.Indeed People with low vitamin d status use more pain killers and for a lot longer than those with adequate vitamin d status. (http://www.asaabstracts.com/strands/asaabstracts/abstract.htm;jsessionid=4B05E5B25C2F6A654147B0D5F900966E?year=2007&index=3&absnum=1501)

This recent study confirms the findings
Cod liver oil reduces NSAID usage (http://www.nhs.uk/news/2008/03March/Pages/Codliveroilreducespainkilleruse.aspx) I'm sure you are aware that Cod Liver Oil is a good source of vitamin d and the 10ml/daily would contain around 800iu typically. While this isn't an enormous amount it is a significant increase. It would have been far better, from the pain point of view if the 25(OH)D levels had been taken and all participants had their status raised to above 40ng/ml or 100nmol/l. Only when people start taking Vitamin D insufficiency seriously will we see a reduction in heart/cancer incidence.

[black57]

Don't forget to find out if she is taking a statin, or was taking one for a long time. Severe muscle pain is one of the side of statins (among others). Even if she was taking a statin and is no longer, this is to be considered because sometimes the damage is irreversible.
http://www.spacedoc.net/muscle_pain_statins.htm

In line with Zuilekela's statement, statins also cause a vitamin D deficiency. Drs. have been known to prescribe vitamin D to their statin patients.

[Hutchinson]

Drs. have been known to prescribe vitamin D to their statin patients.Indeed but the only prescribable form of Vitamin D is D2 Ergocalciferol and The Case Against Ergocaciferol as a Vitamin Supplement (http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/84/4/694) still stands.

There has been a recent paper from Holick disputing this but I am not convinced. The number of people he used was too few to be representative of the general population. 68 in 4 different groups means only 17 were actually taking D2 alone. The number of older people (who are know to have particular problems converting the synthetic product D2 to the natural form the body uses D3) must have been less than a handful given the average age was 38rs. None of the people in that trial achieved the natural levels of vitamin D3 status that the body naturally stabilises at given adequate sun exposure.

So although it is true that some doctors may be prescribing Vitamin D it is probably also the case that if you are getting a doctors prescription for Vitamin D2 ergocalciferol, it is probably better left at the pharmacy as your body will respond more reliably to Vitamin D3 Colecalciferol.

If your prescription is for 50,000iu D2 you can buy 50,000iu D3 from Bio-Tech Pharmacal who also supply 5000iu. As Vitamin D3 is unobtainable in the UK at these strengths I trust the mods will allow the reference to that company as I have no financial interest in providing that name.
If you are getting some daily sun exposure and want a lower strength then Carlson's do 360 oil based gel caps 2000iu for around $11.28 from the usual USA discount supplement providers so there is absolutely no excuse for the rip off pricing for less effective version by the pharmaceutical companies. (http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2007/11/vitamin-d2-rip-offs.html) It's a disgraceful scam and health professionals should not be party to it.

[Squid]

It sounds like she's not being well-diagnosed by her doc. How about a consultation at a pain clinic?

[SylvieK]

Actually, there is another thing to consider: plainly the amount of carbs from any source. I am finding that for me, the source makes zero difference.

For the last 3 weeks I've eaten 100 - 125g carbs per day. I cannot describe the extent of the pain I've been in. Since March 10 I've been avoiding everything with gluten in it -- still in intense pain. Almost impossible to walk pain. In the past I've dropped dairy to no avail.

So looking at my food diary and my health journal, I found that the pain began creeping up when carbs started creeping up, and that when carbs hit the 100g per day level the pain skyrocketed. On Sunday I dropped to 15g carbs. By Sunday afternoon the pain was mostly gone. On Monday I was in ketosis. The pain is continuing to decline, and is now an occasional twinge.

The pain was so intense last week that I could not sleep. I was sleeping less than 3 hours a night. I was maxed out on Advil. I slept the last 2 nights without awakening, and am not taking any pain killer.

I'd be willing to bet that the actual mechanism causing the pain is strongly affected either by carbs in general or something in the particular carbs I've been eating, but I don't think its gluten or dairy. The big thing for me is not being in pain.

Liz, you've given me something to really think about. I posted in General Health that I was having problems with severe inflammation. I've been eating more processed meats lately, like deli ham and turkey. Looked at the label for the turkey and saw that it's got corn syrup and 4g of carbs per serving (about 1 oz). It didn't taste sweet (actually, it didn't even taste good, it was so overprocessed). But now I'm realizing that due to moving and disruptions I've been cooking a lot less and relying on packaged foods more, upping the carbs. I've also been using more half-and-half in coffee, where carbs can add up. I'm going to try going very low carb today and see if that helps.

Didn't mean to go OT. But it does seem difficult to offer advice or help people when they're very attached to habits that may be causing or contributing to their problems. Giving up a few dietary habits to see if there's improvement is a simple approach, so maybe one can make a case for the simplicity as a way to begin healing.