very high fat diet

[classic86]

i originally posted this in south beach forum, but their a little fanatical over there so im transfering it here, basically a summary of my very high fat dairy diet; just wanted to see what people think about it since i havent shared this with anyone, btw ive been on this for over a year (im a senior ~ a university);
disclaimer: i dont do this for weight loss, but for health, im one of the skinny people that doesnt gain weight no matter what i eat, however since starting a high fat diet ive seen vast improvements in my muscle structure and health

"dairy is very, very important, but not because its somehow superior to meat, its not, its because its damn near impossible to find fatty-enough meat in a US meat section

the optimal human diet consists of about 80-90% animal fat, the rest is protein; this might come as a surprise to some people but this has roots in our evolutionary history, see before we were ever hunters, we were always scavengers, and what we scavenged on the savanna were for the most animal carcasses, not fruits and veggies...rotting animal corpses ; however, since we did not kill our own prey we always had second pickings after the carnivore was done with the meal, and usually we had to fight over the kill with other scavengers such as hyenas and vultures and also the carnivores such as lions, cheetahs etc. (this is where our amazing ability to throw rocks really shined); see the reason we walk upright not because we're hunters but because we're scavengers, we can see much farther than any animal by being able to climb trees and stand up on our back feet to view the surroundings, helping us find carcasses easier in a grassy savanna environment; this is also why there's a strong sexual selection for height, and why we find it attractive; anyways ill cut this anthropological reason short and get into the meat of things... literally

when a carnivore kills an animal it either eats it all or stashes it and guards it, most of the time we found a carcass the only things that were left were what the other animals couldnt get it; here comes the fun part, humans harvested the brains, the bone marrow, the tongue and the eyes, and whatever scrap meat was left on the bones, what this adds up to is fat, lots of it, to the tune of 80% of our diet with the rest being protein, so our diet was never high carb, but it was never high protein either... (history lesson: first human tools were developed to more efficiently crack open thick bones and animal skulls to get at the fat inside)

to sum all this up, we never evolved to eat alot of protein, and its deff not optimal to eat anything above 20% protein long term, especially when you have all the fat you want available to you; see my diet would undoubtedly be 90% pork fat, but the problem is i cant get my hands on so much fat in fat-phobic US where pigs are bred leaner to sell better to the misinformed masses that cut out their fat off the meat before they cook it, so i turned to the next best thing - dairy! unlike meat, you can get your hands on all the high-fat dairy you want, BUT there are a few issues and ill mention them.

here is my diet - full fat sour cream, light/heavy cream. yea thats IT, (i also take Vit D pills and Vit C, for reasons i dont have the space to go into here); those are the 2 things i eat every day for months and months, and guess what... never felt or looked better in my life; now ill explain why i dont eat cheese or drink milk.. with dairy, you want to get as much fat as you possibly can while getting as little protein and carbs as you can, this disqualifies cheese, milk, even half and half (too watery and low density),(dairy protein casein also has some specific negative aspects besides constipation that i wont go into here, but you can look it up yourself) optimal thing here would be HEAVY CREAM, the holy grail of a high fat diet, but unfortunately just about every heavy cram manufacturer decided to start adding Carrageenan to it, in fact im only able to find one brand of cream at all that doesnt have it, i consider myself lucky (if your not familiar with Carrageenan look it up, ill just say that this is something you DONT want to put into your body, EVER)

so let me break my diet down for you in calorie terms
its 75% animal fat, 50% saturated fat overall, about 10% carbs and about 10% protein (i know it doesnt add up to 100%, sue me); when you cant get your hands on tons of raw animal fat or good natural lard, this is as good as it gets, but when i move to a country where pigs are still pigs ill probably switch to pig fat (interesting fact: when the spaniards first brought pigs, cows and chickens to the mainland, the aztecs hated the taste of beef and chcken, but went ballistic over the taste of pork - it tasted exactly like the human sacrifices they were used to eating!! )
if anyone here is familiar with the Mongols, they conquered half the world on a diet of nothing except dairy and meat...and they were mostly lactose intolerant!! ironic

the Mongols didnt drink milk like people do today, they ate the cream or soured it into sour cream or made cheese, the history lesson is free on the house

cheers

[Tecumseh]

Thanks. I am double majoring in anthropology and sociology. I am almost finished with my sociology work then I will pursue anthropology. I find this kind of stuff fascinating.

[Wifezilla]

dairy is very, very important, but not because its somehow superior to meat, its not, its because its damn near impossible to find fatty-enough meat in a US meat section

Tell me about it! I have been on a carnivore only eating experiment for the past month. Getting enough fat has been a big problem!

[classic86]

id suggest eating meat with sour cream, they go together very well - i know beef and pork do, i dont remember ever trying it with chicken

that should raise your fat-to-protein ratio to at least 50/50 (sour cream is 80% fat by calories if i remember correctly)

since i wrote that up ive actually gone to a pork/creamcheese/sour cream diet, you can only give up meat for so long...

i didnt mention how i cook pork but i chop it into very small pieces (1/2inx1/2in or less) and cook it on high heat in a skillet with the lid off it takes less than 10 minutes to be fully cooked, just have to stand there and flip it over very minute or it will burn; and by cooking it on high heat you get a very different taste from cooking it slowly with the lid on, a taste i much prefer, although on a fire is obviously even better, but i am yet to figure out a way to have an open fire in my kitchen...someday

[Wifezilla]

id suggest eating meat with sour cream

This does help. I do that with white meat chicken. Otherwise I get wicked hungry about 2 hours after eating it.

[ElleH]

I rely heavily on heavy cream to get my fats up. TBL for TBL it has twice the fat and less than half the carbs of sour cream. Sometimes I make a sauce out of the drippings of the meat I've just cooked out of heavy cream, too.

As a matter of fact, I just drank half a cup of cream after dinner tonight (very lightly sweetened with DaVinci Khalua-flavored syrup) to get my fat up to 80% for today. I ate it out of the cup with a spoon...just like melted ice cream!

Classic, I'm curious as to your protein intake in grams per day? It's one thing to say "I eat 75% fat per day,10% carb and 10% protein" but without knowing the grams of anything, I don't know how much it is. And I'm curious if you know the grams of any of them (I can figure it out from any one of them.).

Ya know, it's interesting. We are about to go on a short vacation, and I'm stressing about how I'm going to stay on plan. I could try drinking cream and eating a little bit of meat. The cream in combination with the meat really holds my appetite for a LONG time and kills cravings when I'm at home, and I never seem to remember it when I'm away from home. We'll have a full kitchen and will be eating *most* of our meals in--so it should be very doable. I can't believe it...i actually have hope that I can stay on plan while on a trip. (Haven't had much success there...) It's sad that I can't take any DV syrup with me to spruce them up a little bit (flying)...but I will have sweetener packets with me.

[classic86]

i really cant give you any concrete numbers my eating schedule is erratic at best, sometimes i eat 3 times a day sometimes only once; most of the time i just eye it, its not like you have to have exact percentages, what your eating is great, to be honest there are days when i want to pig out on protein and others when i dont even want to touch it just want the most fat i can eat

the heavy cream you buy is carrageenan free i take it? i simply cant get any or id be drinking it too believe me

the fact that heavy cream and meat holds your appetite for a long time somehow does not surprise me

why would you have a problem on a trip? what store doesnt carry sour cream, meat and cream cheese? even if you cant get heavy cream its not like your committing heresy by eating other high fat dairy; be flexible, heavy cream is great but your not going to always be able to get your hands on some, so have widely-available alternatives in mind

~wifezilla - interesting thing i just remembered... my favourite food before i ever did low carb was fried chicken wings with blue cheese...oh man i used to eat TONS of them...and people would always tell you how their super bad for your health... life is not without a sense of irony

i never did forgive my parents for forcing me to eat vegetables when i was young... -_-

[Sandollar]

Ask your butcher for some suet...he'll probably give it to you for free!
I stuff it in my crockpot with a roast, and when it's rendered down and lovely and salt n' peppery, I pour it into a cup and stick it in the fridge. Whenever I want some fat I just stick the cup in the microwave to liquify it...then sip it like bullion.

If it's good enough for the bird feeder, it's good enough for me!!:)

I like sour cream on everything. Same with creme fraiche.

[classic86]

i actually hated the taste of suet, but i just cooked it like i cook my pork, in the skillet plain no salt or anything, it just melted into a puddle

no idea why, i guess i like my fat to have structure to it, like pork fat i absolutely adore plain in pieces i just chug that stuff down

[waywardsis]

I'm doing the carnivore challenge along with Wifezilla :wave: and I agree, it's a challenge getting fat up there! Eggs help - 1 tbsp butter per egg works out to about 80% fat. Forget how much protein though.

Ever read The Optimal Diet by Jan Kwsensomethingski? (note:that is not his last name, I just can't spell it) His idea is that we should eat 1g protein and 3-4g fat per lb "Ideal" body weight.

[ElleH]

i really cant give you any concrete numbers my eating schedule is erratic at best, sometimes i eat 3 times a day sometimes only once; most of the time i just eye it, its not like you have to have exact percentages, what your eating is great, to be honest there are days when i want to pig out on protein and others when i dont even want to touch it just want the most fat i can eat

the heavy cream you buy is carrageenan free i take it? i simply cant get any or id be drinking it too believe me

the fact that heavy cream and meat holds your appetite for a long time somehow does not surprise me

why would you have a problem on a trip? what store doesnt carry sour cream, meat and cream cheese? even if you cant get heavy cream its not like your committing heresy by eating other high fat dairy; be flexible, heavy cream is great but your not going to always be able to get your hands on some, so have widely-available alternatives in mind

~wifezilla - interesting thing i just remembered... my favourite food before i ever did low carb was fried chicken wings with blue cheese...oh man i used to eat TONS of them...and people would always tell you how their super bad for your health... life is not without a sense of irony

i never did forgive my parents for forcing me to eat vegetables when i was young... -_-

The cream I have has that in it. It's just seaweed or something, isn't it? I guess I better research it. But I doubt it will make me give it up. I won't give up aspartame or MSG, and I doubt this is any worse!!! I haven't noticed any problems with it and lose weight very fast when I add a lot of cream and decrease my protein.

I don't' stay on plan on vacation b/c of the stress of it, the temptations of it, etc. I am not good with just eating the same thing day after day, but for the trip, I will try it, b/c I don't want to go off plan!

Well, if you can just give me an idea of how much you eat on average, that would be great. Not that the eating habits and amounts of a 21 year old male would apply to me! ;)

[classic86]

only a month away from 23 actually -_-

carrageenan is bad..BAD stuff, is a few lbs worth risking your long term health for? you make that choice as an adult, there's no right or wrong about it really

"I guess I better research it."
works better when you do it BEFORE you start eating the stuff, im surprised you dont get stomach aches, that stuff wrecks your intestines

http://www.notmilk.com/carageenan.html

have you researched aspartame?

one of the benefits of a high fat diet as you undoubtedly know is that we dont experience hunger like people on high carb diets, i have had terrible appetite last few days, and when i get a sore throat i can fast for days, its a natural reaction of your body to suppress appetite when it needs to repair itself or fight infection, something thats alot harder to do when your constantly throwing loads of carbs in the oven

the process of switching between eating and running off batteries (fat) is so effortless when you eat mostly fat that your body has a much easier time getting you to fast when it needs it, its 11:40pm as i type this and i havent even eaten anything today because i have a sore throat and my appetite is exactly 0, however i never get TRULY sick anymore, i havent had a runny nose or coughing or sneezing fits or sore eyes that you usually get when you get sick - for a year now, a cold is slightly uncomfortable now at worst

[ElleH]

Yes, I've researched aspartame. I don't use much of it, but I do use a little.

I've never heard of carrageenen being controversial before yesterday...so researching it wouldn't have occurred to me. No, my stomach is fine. I feel great, actually, since I went back what I call "high-fatting" a few days ago.

Yes, dear, I am an adult--old enough to be your mother, in fact. Maybe age will teach you to soften your delivery? Just b/c you're on the internet doesn't mean manners don't matter. ;)

Thanks for the info re: fat. I've been doing it for a while myself. Not to the extent you do, but I'm betting I eat more fat than 99.99% of the people on this board.

[M Levac]

VHF diet. LOL, that works for me. Next, UHF diet.

I feel lucky to have come across this thread. I just started buying and drinking heavy cream. I drank almost one full quart since yesterday and had another full quart in the fridge. I threw them out. No use keeping them at this point.

I'm in Montreal and we have quite a selection of butchers and other meat markets, especially on boulevard Saint-Laurent. I guess I'm the lucky guy here for that. Anyway, I discovered that butcher who's been there for as long as I've been alive and he has the best pork cuts I could find anywhere. Well to be honest, I didn't look any further once I figured it out. I'm chewing on bacon strips all day long from now on. I eat a selection of cheap but excellent pork meat. It's surprising how good the meat is even though it's very cheap compared to other prime cuts. Last I went there, I told him keep the fat on. He replied fat is the best part. It's all good. It takes a while to get used to the amount of fat I eat but I think I'll be ready to eat full fat lard eventually.

Basically, I want to eat about as much fat as I can. I figured that the more fat I eat, the faster I use the fat I have on my body. It's a matter of BMR. But maybe it's more subtle than that. I don't know, I'll see how it goes.

[classic86]

"I figured that the more fat I eat, the faster I use the fat I have on my body."

no, the more fat you eat, the less carbs you eat which means you pack on less fat, but to get rid of your existing "reserves" you have to consume less calories than your burning day after day, a high fat diet allows you to do this painlessly, and by cutting off the carbs its just a matter of time before you cut down your fat stores; you cant pig out on pork and expect to burn off your stores, your body doesnt turn to fat stores unless you burn more than you put in, and a fatty pound of pork has ALOT of energy

now, once you burn off the fat reserves you can pig out on porkchops as much as you want since your not eating carbs you wont pack the fat back on

most people severely underestimate the amount of time they can fast, if you have 15 pounds of adipose fat you can go for a month without eating, most people now feel so dependent on food they forget that we're extremely adapted to starvation, in fact most of our cellular cleaning processes dont even become activated until we are in fasting mode, which in short means regular fasting is extremely good for your health, but ill leave that story to another time


elleh - i assure you my mother doesnt get any special treatment as far as my manners are concerned; whenever i come by now she's afraid to even have fruit lying
around -_-

[M Levac]

To use fat reserves (lipolysis), two conditions must be met:

- Insulin must be absent
- fat must be eaten

Going into starvation means no fat is being eaten. One condition is not being met. BMR will slow down to maintain calories in-out balance to avoid losing precious fat reserves. Fat reserves will remain intact after calories from fat eaten run out. Gluconeogenesis will begin, protein stores will be used instead of fat stores. Especially since you need proteins for building blocks, repair and maintenance. You will shrink alright but not by lipolysis.

Coming out of starvation will take a while because BMR is so slow from it. You wrote you eat about 10% carbs. That's ample enough to prevent lipolysis. Especially since BMR is so slow. Insulin is present, no lipolysis can take place. One condition is not being met.

[Fauve]

Martin,
Are you saying calories don't count if carbs are very low?

[M Levac]

Martin,
Are you saying calories don't count if carbs are very low?

I'm not the one saying it, Gary Taubes is:

http://www.stevens.edu/csw/cgi-bin/index.php

[classic86]

i disagree with you
but then again we learned from different people
i am from the "Bear" school of thought

here's my take - fasting is fasting, your body is incredibly efficient and adapted at keeping you alive, it is also very efficient at protein conservation, in fact so efficient that when you enter fasting your body begins to scavenge flawed proteins of all kinds from your cells (due to incorrect folding, dna errors, etc.), there are always tons of messed up proteins proteins scattered throughout your body, this is the result of the thousands of reactions that take place in every cell every second; while there are dedicated proteins that are assigned to clean this stuff up they often cant cope with the load, this is documented stuff im not making this up..; anyways in fasting mode your body gathers these up and burns them for fuel ALONG WITH FAT; the result of this is you clean our your cells and burn your adipose fat at the same time, thats why the energy boost when fasting is so intense (i cant even fall asleep i have so much energy), your body isnt going to be burning all protein thats silly you would get nitrogen poisoning, what makes you think your body wouldnt be burning the optimal fuel mix - 90% fat 10% junk protein recycling

once the junk protein is burned off (this could take many days depending on how messed up your body is), your body begins very strict protein conservation turning instead to full fat burning; your kidneys can recycle over 99% of the amino acids that pass through, your body knows it has fat reserves and its NOT going to be burning off your muscles while there's still tons of fat, evolutionarily that makes no sense: adipose fat> muscle tissue> internal fat< i believe is the order or things, your body would be willing to sacrifice muscle before its going to destroy your internal fat reserves (which cushion your organs)


its important to understand that this process is the same whether you start fasting after eating carbs or fat, its just that its much easier to slip into fasting on a high fat diet

the most important thing is not to eat ANYTHING during a fast, water excepting, that means NOTHING, no juice, no tea, etc. anyone thats ever done a several day fast knows how energetic and healthy you feel even after one day, the body is adapted to heal when your not eating, it cant fully work the healing processes and digest and absorb meals at the same time apparently, digestion is very stressful; ancient man was fasting so much of the time it was never an issue in the past, now with regular 3 meals a day you can see how the process is disrupted, however your body always has sleep, which is of course a multi-hour fast (thats why its called BREAKfast)...unless you dont give your body enough sleep that is, then your REALLY going to have problems

then again this is MY take on things, im not trying to pass this off as dietary law; however this is the opinion that Bear had as well although i dont think he went as far as to say protein salvaging took place

cheers

[M Levac]

We learned from the same people. I simply chose to listen to everybody and make up my own mind.

So you didn't listen to Gary Taubes speak, I take it? Otherwise you'd have a much different perspective on things. His conclusions are rather compelling. He's researched, collected, analyzed and synthesized 5 years worth full time of all kinds of data on the subject in a single book "Bad Calories Good Calories". Now he's touring the country trying to explain it to various groups.

Forgive me if I don't take "Bear"'s hypothesis seriously at this point. Speaking of which, would you mind post a link to this Bear person or theory? I'd very much like to see for myself and make up my own mind on the matter. Thanks.

In the meantime, browse this website at your leisure. The Taubes video is linked to on the front page.

[classic86]

In the meantime, browse this website at your leisure.
not sure what you meant by that...ive been on the site for months


Forgive me if I don't take "Bear"'s hypothesis seriously at this point. Speaking of which, would you mind post a link to this Bear person or theory?
you wouldnt take him seriously? you dont even know who he is, let alone read any of his work...notice i never said

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=287013&page=1&pp=15

its 251 pages long btw

i will listen to the link you posted right now, but honestly this Martin,
Are you saying calories don't count if carbs are very low?

I'm not the one saying it, Gary Taubes is: makes no sense, maybe it will sound less ridiculous after i listen to the guy?, what does that mean anyway "dont count" calories are calories, your body's energy source, fat 9 protein 4 carb 4 alcohol 5, and they all count

cheers

[M Levac]

why wouldnt you take him seriously if you've never even read his stuff?

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=287013&page=1&pp=15

its 251 pages long btw...enjoy

cheers

Arrogance is not the way to enlightenment. Thanks for the link.

[classic86]

Gary Taubes, an award-winning writer for Science, the New York Times Magazine and other publications, came to Stevens to discuss his controversial new bestseller, Good Calories, Bad Calories

the guy has an incentive to sell his book, while every person that i have studied had no incentive whatsoever, Bear never sold anything he simply shared his life-long research with us, with no benefit to himself whatsoever, in fact he got so swamped with emails after that he probably wasted a few full days just on answering questions

let me put it this way
if i had a bestselling book on Judaism out, would you take my theories as to who the "one true god" is 'seriously'?

edit:: Going into starvation means no fat is being eaten.
do you understand the difference between fasting and starvation? fasting ends when all your subcutaneous fat reserves run out and your body turns to muscle catabolism, this is when starvation begins, it takes a LONG time to enter starvation if you have adipose fat reserves present

[M Levac]

I'm only on the first page of that thread and already see that your conclusions are way off from his. A few examples to demonstrate.

First paragraph of his first post:

"No carbs = no insulin."

Third paragraph, first post:

"The conversion mechanism requires insulin..."

It goes on like this. I don't see at this point how you could have come to the conclusions you wrote about. You disagree with me yet I agree with this Bear guy.

BTW, did you read the entire thread? I won't read the entire thread. I don't see the point anymore. I got what I needed out of it already from the first page.

[classic86]

show me where i said that adipose fat storage doesnt require carbs and thus insulin production

this is the foundation of the zero carb diet

propensity of fat storage is a direct result of your gene pool, that is the basis for somatotype theory, but in every somatotype insulin is the fat storage factor

maybe you should read the rest of his thread, Bear never said you have to "keep eating fat" to lose fat, he also never said "calories dont count"... you have to eat less fat/protein calories than you burn or simply fast

im going to make this extra clear
IF YOU EAT AS MUCH FAT AS YOU NEED YOU WILL NOT LOSE WEIGHT
your offering no incentive to your body to give up its highly valued energy reserves if your eating sufficient amounts of calories

Bear made this very clear

edit:: i just watched Gary Taubes' 1h:11m, and honeslty it was a waste of time because i learned absolutely NOTHING that i didnt already know and write right here

"carbs invoke a starvation response from the body and facilitate the process of fat storage"

there you go i just saved over an hour of time for everyone else since every person even remotely familiar with Atkins knows this

[M Levac]

Forgive me, you're right. I should read the rest of that thread. It's obvious that I need to learn about the subject. Perhaps in time I'll think just like you do and become one of the "Bear" school of thought. Silly me trying to think for myself. It's best to let others do that thinking and simply adopt their conclusions. My brain is useless and I should not use it for fear of breaking anything in there that I couldn't fix anyway.

You win.

[classic86]

the guy said nothing that Atkins didnt, what was the reason you insisted i waste over 1 hour of my time listening to him?

im very serious about that, his philosophy is "dont eat carbs you wont build fat"....wow...where have i heard that before

[M Levac]

the guy said nothing that Atkins didnt, what was the reason you insisted i waste over 1 hour of my time listening to him?

im very serious about that, his philosophy is "dont eat carbs you wont build fat"....wow...where have i heard that before

"The guy" also said that every time he spoke to scientist and he mentioned Atkins, they shut down, the discussion was over and that was that. From your last reply here, it clearly looks like you shut down, the discussion is over and that's it for that.

Like I said, you win.

[classic86]

this is a discussion thread on a forum

noone wins here, and the discussion isnt over until the thread gets locked

if you write something on a discussion thread be prepared to be challenged, to cop out with a "sorry i think for myself, you win" is pretty weak

once again i will mention the 2 things you said that i dont agree with and that i want you to substantiate

1)Basically, I want to eat about as much fat as I can. I figured that the more fat I eat, the faster I use the fat I have on my body.

2)Martin,
Are you saying calories don't count if carbs are very low?
Martin:I'm not the one saying it, Gary Taubes is


nevermind the fact that he never said "you can eat as much as you want just as long as you dont eat carbs, and you will lose weight", but maybe i missed it

these statements go against my diet, and since i started the thread its logical you discuss this with me

one of us IS wrong on those 2 points, thats just how it is, if you can prove to me your point i will gladly accept it and will make it mine, my only allegiance is to the most correct theory, not to Bear or anyone else

i think about everything in terms of survival, and in terms of surivival it would be SUICIDAL for the body to burn off your adipose fat while your EATING fat, UNLESS your eating LESS than your USING, your body doesnt think its fat, it values adipose fat as its most important survival measure in lean times (which in nature is almost always), thats why its so hard to LOSE it, the organism is built logically, intelligently if you will (without touching religion)

im a skinny guy, but even ectomorphs have pot bellies, this is no secret, i had one most of my life, and you know what when i first started zero carb i ate LOADS of food, probably at least 3000 calories a day, and i was VERY sedentary, guess what even at 0 carbs my stomach fat was STILL THERE after TWO MONTHS, it is only after i calmed down and got used to the diet and started eating less did i begin to lose my stomach fat, even after introducing dairy (which has some carbs obviously)

i hate online arguments as much as anybody, but this is a discussion not an argument, so be reasonable

[M Levac]

We've already gone through the entire discussion without success. It is futile to try again knowing the outcome on your part.

[cricket56]

This is very interesting to me. I was under the impression that because you denied the body of carbs it changes its metabolic process to burning fat ( first from the liver store etc) and was in a ketogenic state. Doing that allowed for increased calories and not interfering with the loss.
I am doing a higher fat and low calorie/very low carb diet now. I always did better on the older Atkins program that was much higher fat. Reading your post made me realize that I have gotten to basically this type of thinking as well and am glad to see I am not crazy.
Do you not eat any vegetables? That had been a problem for me in the past. I gained when I ate them. I am not usually hungry but try to have an egg or few bites of meat every several hours to keep the fires burning. What are your opinions?
Cricket56

[classic86]

well i never "snack" anymore, i eat once or twice a day about 1000 calories per meal (im wildly guessing here), but i know its at least 800 calories per meal (im going to point out my life is veeeery sedentary so my calories burned per day are not relevant to you possibly, but most people underestimate how much work it takes to burn off 2000 calories)

works better for me because your body has more rest from digestion, try eating 5 times a day and then eating 2 times a day, you should see a huge difference in how tired you are by the end of the day, taken to the extreme not eating anything for the entire day you'll turn into the energizer bunny by eveningtime

my meal spacing is very very different day to day, i lead a very sedentary life so i dont burn alot of calories so me giving you advice on how often to eat is actually not the best way to go, i guess all i can suggest is eat more and less often, but dont repress yourself if your obviously hungry

and no, i havent had a fruit or vegetable in over a year, however when my roommate makes meatballs he cuts up half an onion into the ground beef, so i guess TECHNICALLY ive had some onion, but those meatballs are really.. really good

ive hated vegetables my whole life, for most people eating vegetables has to be drilled into them by their parents whether they choose to admit that or not

obviously fruit is liked by most people being as it is almost pure sugar

hope that helped

[cricket56]

Hi classic86. I used to go on one meal a day. It did my GI system in,and didn't help the loss. I also am not as actie as I was. I had worked 6-7 days a week running from one patient emergency to another all over the county. If I had ever eaten more than 1500 cal in one day I would explode.I find myself comfortable with under 500 but try to get to 800 at least. Breakfast is 2 fried eggs in butter and water 6-9AM. lunch is litterally a bit of a piece of meat..maybe a couple of ounces of chicken or pork 1-2PM. If I can I take a bite of it about 11am I do,and eat dinner at hopefully 6-8 depending upon when hubsband's sched. and that is a smlall piece of meet or fish.I actually do enjoy vegetables but severely limit them. I had 2gms of iceburg lettuce yesterday and 3gms of brussels sprouts tonight with a piece of pork shoulder. I am still full an hour later.
I drink a lake full of water a day. I have tons of energy but don't have the ability to run it off. It never mattered how I ate as to the energy level. Today I had some sour cream with DaVinci caramel SF syrup for a snack. I rarely do that. I don't have a sweet tooth and never snacked either. I don't think of having a bite of protein snacking, but that is up to the interpretation. I've lost 1.5 pounds in 2 days eating like this. I had been at a stand still or bounced up for 1-2 lbs with every loss of ounces before it came back down.
Bottom line is that we found what is comfortable for our bodies and feel good effects from what we do {:-)

[Thump]

I couldn't eat that much fat. I guess I'm still fighting the brainwashing. Anyway, the attitude of the original poster to debate doesn't make me side with him either >.<
I love vegetable and I love milk, giving them up has been hard and I don't actually like the taste and texture of meat *sigh*. I'd gag if I had to eat suet or really greasy bacon.