America's Most Obese Cities

[kyrasdad]

Forbes list: America's most obese cities (http://go.fark.com/cgi/fark/go.pl?i=3224851&l=http://www.forbes.com/2007/11/14/health-obesity-cities-forbeslife-cx_rr_1114obese_slide_2.html%3FthisSpeed%3D15000)

It's a slideshow, not a list, or I'd have pasted it. Interesting stuff with notes on how the various cities are reacting to their obesity rates.

[camaromom]

I do wish that someone would reimburse me for either my gym membership or my attendance at the gym. I know there are companies in my area that do, but unfortunately not where I work.

[LessLiz]

I wish someone would reimburse me for the cost of my car. There are companies that provide cars, but not where I work.

And yeah, that's about as relevant to obesity as a gym membership.

[Kary]

Even though my area is not on the list, I started noticing about a year ago that the number of overweight/obese people seemed to be increasing. It is obviously phat to be fat. But you know, I have always been a person who likes to buck the trend. So while everyone else gets fatter, we will all be getting thinner :).

[southbel]

What I found interesting about the comments about the cities was how they commented based upon the geographic region. If a city were in the South, they automatically blamed it upon the gluttony of the people and Southerners' fried foods. However, if that city were just about anywhere else, it was because of poverty levels, car driving, lack of exercise, etc.

Now, I found this to be quite a biased approach to looking at the obesity issue. I think a large problem for our Southern cities is NOT the Southern culture, love affair with food, the way we cook, or whatever you want to call it. We have a VERY high poverty level in the South and in our Southern cities, it is even worse. I think this is the largest contributing factor to our obesity problem, much as we see across the rest of the country. I just get so sick and tired of hearing that same old excuse bandied about that we Southerners just fry everything and that's why we are all fat.

Actually, if you look back in history, Southerners were NOT always fat until, like the REST of the country, we started eating convenience meals and fast foods. We just stopped eating fresh, whole foods, just like everyone else, and thus got fat. Let's make fresh, whole foods truly affordable and THEN we can really see a drop in this obesity problem.

For the record, most traditional Southern food is NOT deep fried, just cooked VERY high fat from fresh foods. Oh, and lots and lots of veggies.

Well, sorry for the mini-rant, but it just gets a little frustrating to see this same biased view perpetuated over and over again.

[black57]

What bothers me is the comments on how poorer areas have little access to fruits and vegetables. That is not true. You have access to fresh fruit and vegetables. They are also more likely to buy cheaper cuts of meats like beef heart and liver. So a well educated food stamp recipient should be very healthy. They are just not educated.

[rightnow]

Gosh, who eats beef heart and liver? Any of the nearest 50 people in my family would probably faint if I tried to serve them something like that. That's akin to cow's tongue, pig's feet and tripe (stomach lining) in my world. Maybe it's a cultural thing? I eat sirloin steak, roast (shoulder/butt), pork chops, chicken, tuna, or I just do without meat. I wouldn't know how to cook anything else, but I think I'd be afraid of it anyway! Good thing I'm not poor.

[glendarc]

After years of observing I've decided that i feel a real regret that society has "progressed" to the point where both adults in any family absolutely have to work to make ends meet, whether they want a career or not. Who has the time or energy to cook a decent meal after an 8-hour work day? And how many quick, convenience meals, or take-outs, are NOT overloaded with carbs. In today's economy it's very difficult to eat properly.

I'm so glad I was born early enough so that I could be a stay-at-home mom and raise my kids on home cooking. We didn't have all the latest in technology, but there wasn't the same speed of obsolescence back in the 50's and 60's and 70's as there is today. A lot of us drove 15 year old cars and had 10 or more year old TVs ... nothing works that long these days!

Glenda
(PS - I love liver!!!! - cubed, and stir fried with bacon & onion and just a splash of worcestershire sauce - mmmmmmm ... yummy!)

[southbel]

What bothers me is the comments on how poorer areas have little access to fruits and vegetables. That is not true. You have access to fresh fruit and vegetables. They are also more likely to buy cheaper cuts of meats like beef heart and liver. So a well educated food stamp recipient should be very healthy. They are just not educated.

If faced between choosing beef heart or frozen pizza at the same price, the poor shopper is likely to choose the frozen pizza because that choice seems more palatable. So, I think the problem still remains making healthier, palatable foods more affordable.

Since most of these high carb convenience foods are made with products that are government subsidized to the Nth degree, they are hugely affordable to the lower income class. Perhaps the answer is to roll back these subsidies or to reverse how they are apportioned. I don't know.

However, until we can make that frozen pizza the same price or even more expensive than a healthier alternative, I doubt we will see that many people reaching for beef hearts or liver just because it is healthier. We need to make all fresh, whole foods more affordable.

I am telling you, at this income level, people will be driven more by their affordability level and what is deemed healthy will come second. This is out of sheer necessity for their own financial survival.

[Demokat]

I used to volunteer at a food pantry, and the majority of the food there was starchy: pasta, rice, beans, macaroni & cheese, etc. Occasionally you'd see canned tuna or peanut butter, but mostly it was crap like Ramen noodles. People are driven by convenience and price. If you're working 2-3 jobs and trying to juggle familial responsibilities, it's a lot easier to throw something in the microwave than prepare a sit-down meal. It's also a hell of a lot cheaper to buy Ramen noodles than even a cheap cut of steak.

[Demokat]

What bothers me is the comments on how poorer areas have little access to fruits and vegetables. That is not true. You have access to fresh fruit and vegetables. They are also more likely to buy cheaper cuts of meats like beef heart and liver. So a well educated food stamp recipient should be very healthy. They are just not educated.


Have you been to an inner city grocery store? In my city (Boston), there's a huge difference between the quality of food offered. The big chains around here (Shaw's, Stop & Shop) also charge higher prices in the inner city. There was an expose of this a couple years ago on one of the local news programs.

Also, our access to decent fresh fruits and veggies here in the Northeast is seasonal-even in affluent areas. Whole Foods always has fresh fruits and veggies, but you pay a premium for them in the winter. Since you live in SoCal and veggies don't have to be shipped across the country, consider yourself lucky. I just love paying $7.99/lb for asparagus!

[rightnow]

One of the biggest shocks to me was when I moved from southern coastal california to a variety of other states. Hartford, Portland, Seattle, Fort Worth, and now NE Oklahoma -- nowhere do they have the quantity and quality and pricing for produce that I had back home. Sometimes even decent garlic has been hard to find and pricey, never mind avocados, oranges, bell peppers. (Currently the colored (non-green) bell peppers are $2.50 each in the grocery store here. Guess what will dominate my garden this coming year...) What fruit is here tends to be smaller, not always in such good shape (underripe, overripe, or beat up), and much more pricey.

That doesn't mean veggies are unaffordable. But in terms of food people like, that don't require a lot of time and mess in cooking, that will feed several people, definitely I think the frozen pizza wins. ;-)

[cartersg1]

I live near Cleveland, one of those obese cities. I would also like to believe our climate has something to do with it. Cold, rainy and snowy from November until sometimes May, we don't get out much if we don't have to. It's just miserable. Walking in the city is extremely tortuous during a snow squall off Lake Erie with those winds whipping around you. It's a reality; who wants to go for a walk? The city does have rec centers but like ours, you must pay for a membership. Access to the indoor walking trail is only $30 a year for us; access to the entire gym is more.

And I'm so darn tired of poverty being equated with obesity. MOST people in poverty do not have an education. I have worked in the social service field with an organization that helped people find jobs and gave them the tools and incentives to keep those jobs as they came off welfare. The number one issue - a vast majority of the clients did not even finish high school. They had children in their teens, collected welfare, did not live in an intact family and had ZERO social support to complete a GED or continue onto at least a 2-year associate's degree or some vocational training. They did not know anything about nutrition, budgeting, finances...even how open a bank account, keep a balance, write a check! Many struggled with reading and comprehension skills to complete job applications. So without some basic education, they were left out of the loop. Whether it's cultural or social, it's hard to tell. We did not give our clients ANY nutrition training. It just wasn't a consideration. They had so many other issues to deal with - most didn't even own an alarm clock. Just making sure they got to work everyday, understanding that it was important to their long-term future, was enough.

The Food Stamp program requires you to buy the brand name cereals and many are LOADED with sugar. When we adopted our daughter, the program was transferred to us. We kept it until the adoption was final - it more trouble than it was worth. We made separate trips to the store for those items and she was ALWAYS with us, otherwise we'd have to talk to the manager. There are no sugar-free options. The peanut butter HAS to be a specific brand; cold cereals are the sugar-laden ones, juices that are all-natural may not qualify, no skim milk but cheese and eggs are on the list. In short, the program is stacked against actual good nutrition in favor of processed, sugar-laden foods. There was a move to add fruits and veggies but I don't know where that is in Congress. If you receive food stamps, the system is stacked against you. And if you have NO culinary training or even a basic understanding of food groups, you're out of luck. You make due with boxed mac & cheese, pasta, sugar-laden drinks and cookies and such. But this is for ANYONE who doesn't bother to cook and relies heavily on processed foods.

We're too busy to cook? I work (outside the home AND on my PhD) and my husband works. We own a crockpot - toss something in and leave it. It's more along the lines of a lack of planning rather than a lack of time. I have taken an hour on a Sunday afternoon, gotten THE FAMILY involved and we've put together meals for the week. All we need to do is toss them in the oven when we get home or in the crockpot before we leave for the day. It's a cop-out to say you don't have time when the whole family should be involved in the process. If your kids are older, they need to go to the store with you and pick up items that YOU need off the shopping list. Get them involved in the whole process.

We've gotten lazy - we drive to work, we drive everywhere. Hiking is something for the weekend in good weather or if we're on vacation. We've been told we have no time to cook because we're so overprogrammed or place watching TV or playing video games above a good meal or family time. Watching TV together is not family time. We turn the TV off two nights a week and listen to music, play games, read or some other activity. The TV is off more frequently than that but we make an effort to do it two nights a week. The kids need soccer - sure. It's good exercise and teaches them about teamwork and such. They NEED to not order another pizza after the game because no one bothered to make anything.

Poverty does not need to equal to obesity. It's all about making educated choices (how to spend your money) and if you don't even have a basic education (and a library card), you don't have access to the information to make those choices. Granted, schools are still teaching the old food pyramid with 6 - 10 servings of grains on the bottom as a foundation (my daughter came home with her politically motivated tripe just before Thanksgiving), but with a library card, you can check out a couple of cookbooks and make a decent meal. Cheers!

[Tiffanylip]

I used to volunteer at a food pantry, and the majority of the food there was starchy: pasta, rice, beans, macaroni & cheese, etc. Occasionally you'd see canned tuna or peanut butter, but mostly it was crap like Ramen noodles. People are driven by convenience and price. If you're working 2-3 jobs and trying to juggle familial responsibilities, it's a lot easier to throw something in the microwave than prepare a sit-down meal. It's also a hell of a lot cheaper to buy Ramen noodles than even a cheap cut of steak.

My husband and I have often discussed the high cost of a LC carb diet. On our last trip to the grocery store we tried to spot the cheapest food items that could feed a family.

Ramen - $0.11/package
White Bread - $0.59/loaf
Mac & Cheese - $0.19/box
Bananas - $0.79/lb
Cabbage - $0.39/head
Candy bars - 3/$1.00

Now if you're on a budget, isn't that more appealing than $2.79/lb for chicken breast, $3.99 for a bunch of asparagus, $2.50 each for red/yellow bell peppers?

[kyrasdad]

Low carb eating is more expensive than junk-carb eating; no doubt about it. You can do it cheaper, but you can't do it cheap. You can eat tuna, eggs, chicken thighs, and use frozen veggies instead of fresh to cut the cost, but you will not reach the lows of a starch-based diet.

I was a bit surprised that my city (Tulsa, OK) didn't make the list. I was 350 pounds and routinely wasn't the largest person in a particular restaurant. Now, at 250, I barely register. It is just anecdotal, of course, but it sure seems like the numbers of really obese people have skyrocketed in the last 10-12 years around here. There were always fat people, but the sheer number of extremely obese seems to have grown at a huge rate.

This is a fairly active city, too. You can go to the River and see hundreds of bikers and runners on any given morning. I imagine that places like Tulsa, where it's hard to walk or bike to anywhere, are going to face this more than urban areas where you're forced to walk on a daily basis.

When I was in college at Oklahoma State, you had to walk everywhere. I don't mean a little walking, I mean a lot. I walked mile to campus and probably another couple on campus and then back routinely. Hated it at the time, but if my job put me in a position to do that daily, I'm sure I'd be tons more healthy for it.

[southbel]

The Food Stamp program requires you to buy the brand name cereals and many are LOADED with sugar. When we adopted our daughter, the program was transferred to us. We kept it until the adoption was final - it more trouble than it was worth. We made separate trips to the store for those items and she was ALWAYS with us, otherwise we'd have to talk to the manager. There are no sugar-free options. The peanut butter HAS to be a specific brand; cold cereals are the sugar-laden ones, juices that are all-natural may not qualify, no skim milk but cheese and eggs are on the list. In short, the program is stacked against actual good nutrition in favor of processed, sugar-laden foods. There was a move to add fruits and veggies but I don't know where that is in Congress. If you receive food stamps, the system is stacked against you. And if you have NO culinary training or even a basic understanding of food groups, you're out of luck. You make due with boxed mac & cheese, pasta, sugar-laden drinks and cookies and such. But this is for ANYONE who doesn't bother to cook and relies heavily on processed foods.

Ok I DEFINITELY agree with you here. The WIC program, the Food Stamp program -- they are both so backwards and do not help but actually hurt in terms of nutrition. It never made sense to me. When I was teenager, I worked as a cashier in a local grocery and we got quite a few WIC participants through the line. Here is a program that is supposed to be for the health and nutrition of women, infants, and children and yet the foods that would be listed are exactly as you described. I can remember, even at that young age, being confused as to how this would be considered "healthy". I knew this even at this age because this was food my mother wouldn't even let me have because it was just too much sugar.

Yet, our own government is willingly stuffing all of this sugar into these children? Getting the sugar addiction started early and now they wonder why we have an obesity epidemic, especially amongst the poor? Shameful. Why don't they make protein, veggies, and fruit part of the WIC and Food Stamp program?? I just don't understand this at all.

I don't think poverty means you will absolutely be obese, just like I don't think being Southern equates to being obese either. However, I do think the odds are stacked against you, in terms of education, finances, and the inane Food Stamp program guidelines.

[cartersg1]

WIC is meant to supplement a budget while food stamps are the main source of a food budget. I shoud say WIC gives you the vouchers to buy certain foods, not the food stamp program. But it still does not encourage healthy eating, either way. If WIC does add veggies and fruit, it would be a miracle of sorts. I watched a women purchase a Coke and a small bag of chips with her food stamp debit card last week. How do I know it was a food stamp card? There is a separate pin pad machine for it in my state. There are no restrictions on the purchases except perhaps for alcohol and tobacco.

I know what it's like to live on very little income and I still managed to eat fairly well. I used beans to extend the meat and eggs were a source of protein that was cheap. I made casseroles for dinner that would double as lunches. I learned from my grandmother who raised six kids during the Depression.

[Dodger]

I learned from my grandmother who raised six kids during the Depression.Those who lived through or were raised during the Great Depression are much better able to know what to give up and what to keep when times are tough. My grandparents and parents wasted nothing and reused a lot. I grew up using soap bits to wash with. All the small pieces of soup were pressed together and made into a new bar. I never took a bath alone. At least one of my brothers was in the tub with me. I did not get new clothes until I was in high school (previously I had to wear my older brothers clothes from the previous year. I recently saw a photo from my childhood in which I had a shirt made from an old discarded table cloth and pants made from old curtains. Does anyone recycle like that anymore?

[southbel]

Those who lived through or were raised during the Great Depression are much better able to know what to give up and what to keep when times are tough. My grandparents and parents wasted nothing and reused a lot. I grew up using soap bits to wash with. All the small pieces of soup were pressed together and made into a new bar. I never took a bath alone. At least one of my brothers was in the tub with me. I did not get new clothes until I was in high school (previously I had to wear my older brothers clothes from the previous year. I recently saw a photo from my childhood in which I had a shirt made from an old discarded table cloth and pants made from old curtains. Does anyone recycle like that anymore?
I don't think so but I also believe some of the skill sets necessary to do those types of things are lost in these newer generations. I also came from a generation of waste not want not. I can remember this same attitude towards clothing, food, everything. We bought whole chickens because it could be used 50 ways to Sunday even after eating it for a "meal". But now people don't know how to sew anymore, how to cook, or how to recycle in this manner.

Perhaps simple classes like Home Economics that have been waylaid in our "modern" times would be a welcome addition back into our educational system. It's time people learn how to live a bit old fashioned again, I think! Modern convenience isn't always for the best.

[ElleH]

I'm curious as to how they even gathered this data.

Anyway, I don't do that kind of recycling with clothing, but I think I do pretty well:

-hand me downs older boy to younger boy whenever I can
-girl clothing gets traded in at consignment shops for credit on clothing
-buy ALL clothing from wal mart and target and consignment sales and shops and only buy from places like Kohls, Penney's or Sears on deep deep discount (more expensive stuff comes as gifts--I have never even been inside a Gymboree)
-sweats from one year become winter PJ's for the next year, since they are usually just a little too short but still fit otherwise on my tall, slim children
-ditto summer t-shirts and knit shorts: they will be used as summer PJ's the next year when they have become stained and worn.

[waywardsis]

Wow, this Food Stamp info is totally shocking me. I don't know if we even have a similar thing in Canada. I think there's a food allowance built in to welfare (which isn't much). When I was in high school my boyfriend at the time was living on his own and on student welfare - he got a lot of groceries from the Salvation Army food bank, and many times there was homemade stews and soups included.

[southbel]

I'm curious as to how they even gathered this data.

Anyway, I don't do that kind of recycling with clothing, but I think I do pretty well:

-hand me downs older boy to younger boy whenever I can
-girl clothing gets traded in at consignment shops for credit on clothing
-buy ALL clothing from wal mart and target and consignment sales and shops and only buy from places like Kohls, Penney's or Sears on deep deep discount (more expensive stuff comes as gifts--I have never even been inside a Gymboree)
-sweats from one year become winter PJ's for the next year, since they are usually just a little too short but still fit otherwise on my tall, slim children
-ditto summer t-shirts and knit shorts: they will be used as summer PJ's the next year when they have become stained and worn.
Kudos to you Elle. Back when my husband and I were in the military, we did and we did so because, quite frankly, we had to do so to make ends meet. My parents and grandparents were very much of this mindset as well because this is how they were raised and this is just how life should be lived.

That being said, I will admit to completely NOT doing so now. Once my husband and I both got out of the military and finished college, got great jobs, etc, I got the big house, the nice cars, etc, etc. However, lately it's began to bug me a bit and I remember longingly the simpler times when it wasn't about the brand name or having the latest greatest thing.

So, perhaps this thread has just hit a chord with me. I live a life of excess now and I am in the process of scaling back. I have done so with my food but the rest is a bit harder when the rest of your family has gotten so used to having so much "stuff". I just find it all so damn tiring, to be honest --- shoot it takes me three weeks just to decorate the house for Christmas because of the fresh greenery required, the additional items needed that have to match the decor of the house, and on and on. Bleh! Yes, the life I live RIGHT now is exactly what is wrong with America. Either way too much excess or way too many people in need.

[tmatrocks]

So a well educated food stamp recipient should be very healthy. They are just not educated.

But - you've just hit on the problem. I suspect (perhaps in a broad generalization I am likely to get flamed for) that most folks on food stamps are not the brightest bulbs on the tree.

[tmatrocks]

Plus - obesity is not confined to the poor, the stupid, the whatever - it know no boundaries.

I was morbidly obese, and it was my fault. I think more of us need to 'fess up to that fact, take responsibility for our unhealthy ways, and quit looking for the government or newspaper articles to help us! On the other hand, if we defeat our obesity, like I did, take the credit for the success!

It was NOBODY ELSE'S FAULT I was so friggin' fat but my own. There - I said it.

It is to MY CREDIT I am now under 230. Try and keep me from patting myself on my back!

(Sorry for the rant - please accept it in the spirit intended!!)

[Absinthe62]

But - you've just hit on the problem. I suspect (perhaps in a broad generalization I am likely to get flamed for) that most folks on food stamps are not the brightest bulbs on the tree.


Well, at least you knew it was coming...

I remember my Grandmother using food stamps because she was POOR. She was so ashamed of using them, that she insisted I drive her to shop in an area where no one knew her. Damn, I miss that sweet lady. :cry:

True, many food stamp users may be uneducated, but many are seniors who simply need them to make ends meet.

[rightnow]

I was a bit surprised that my city (Tulsa, OK) didn't make the list. I was 350 pounds and routinely wasn't the largest person in a particular restaurant. Now, at 250, I barely register. It is just anecdotal, of course, but it sure seems like the numbers of really obese people have skyrocketed in the last 10-12 years around here. There were always fat people, but the sheer number of extremely obese seems to have grown at a huge rate.
I'm in NE OK (Ottowa County) and I agree. I used to sit outside walmart in my car waiting for my ex to come out with just a few groceries he was running in quickly for, and I was just astounded. I would sometimes count the people, looking for a percentage of who was 'normal' vs 'overweight' vs 'obese' vs 'morbidly obese' and frankly, the % of 'morbidly obese' seemed to me to be waaaaaay over the national standards, and that of the obese and overweight as well.

I thought maybe it just seemed more to me, because I spent most of my life in Southern Coastal California which actually had better weather then than it does now on the whole (I noticed the weather pattern changing over the course of my life), and seems to emphasize outdoors-ness and fitness. Maybe some is that two seasons a year here you can't operate outside at all, for heat or cold. I don't know.

At the christmas parade, half the band in the jr and high school are fat, even the bleeping flag twirlers are often obese -- this was unheard of when I was in school, you could not qualify to wear a spandex leotard in public if you were 13 and 60 lbs overweight! But apparently there are so *many* kids obese now that the standard has changed. It's shocking.

[rightnow]

I learned from my grandmother who raised six kids during the Depression.
In a world more and more of families that have nothing but one parent who is never present because they're either working or exhausted, that lineage is dying.

I didn't learn to cook, to garden, to can, to plan meals, to sew, to budget or conserve, in fact to do ANYTHING useful, unless cleaning is considered useful. I learned effectively nothing from my "family" growing up. This included missing minor things such as how to interface with people.

Had I not been an unusually gifted and obsessive reader from the age of 5 my life would be radically different. I've had to seek out and educate myself about nearly everything in life including stuff that even in the most casual family, most people learn as part of growing up.

People I know who don't read seem doomed unless they have substantial education/fluency in other areas to compensate. I can tell which of my kids' acquaintances are readers, even at age 11, just by how they behave -- the readers have some depth the non-readers don't have. It's just the experience of however briefly 'being' many different people I suppose, that reading provides. I've really seen a substantial difference in people who read for pleasure vs. don't as adults (the marked exception being people who don't read for some physical reason like dyslexia); it's like there is some depth of thought missing. I guess when your entire perception of reality is limited mostly to the television, this just changes your "depth perception" or something.

I am sincerely working toward lowcarb, I have a better income than most people in my region, and although I'm a single mom I work from home. Despite those fabulous advantages, it is still difficult for me. Not the eating -- who cares, lowcarb food is great -- but the planning, the budgeting, the shopping, storing, the preparing, cooking, cleaning, etc. This is an entire LIFESTYLE -- food-related stuff "dominates" the minimal spare time that I have, and after a life of spending zero time on it besides a drive through line or nuking something in plastic (when I bothered eating at all) it is a huge, huge adjustment. And frankly I don't think I'd do a fraction as well if I didn't have years of reading about LC and the last year especially of interacting with people about it.

I think there is a difference between becoming informed, and then taking responsibility for yourself, vs. evaluating others as at fault for their ignorance, whatever the source of it. One can be self-determined but still realize that without a lot of the experience, exposure, and self education we have obtained, people would be lost, not through any "fault" of their own, just through the circumstance our culture and governments have encouraged to flourish.

I have lived or worked near welfare neighborhoods at times, lived in a van for 8 months once in California (on purpose actually-- I was working p/t but as an executive at the time!) which exposed me to tons of stuff I didn't know about -- and interacted with what amounts to a subculture in our society. Some people are on welfare because they are just poor. Often single motherhood, illness, or age relates to that. However, a vastly greater percentage are on welfare because they haven't the education, ambition (which relates to education of many forms, I'm talking self-education here not just school), to do otherwise.

I've met so many people who couldn't read a newspaper well, couldn't balance a checkbook -- these people short of some radical change are NEVER going to be budgeting well, planning carefully based on menus, doing the math to convert or scale menus, they're not going to *understand* nutrition frankly, and most of them would not comprehend the need for it anyway. The TV says do this, or sitcoms demonstrate people doing this, and they will do it. This is not because they are stupid, it is because people will model what they are exposed to, that is the way humans work.

No matter what the government regulations say, they aren't reading those. You could enforce watching a 60 second commercial every day on what makes good food, and still, the sheer enormity of media-blitz exposure (and in-store/etc. exposure) to food-related advertising would make any good advice a needle in a hayst-- well, in a looming continent-sized iceberg. You raise people on more "indoctrination" (affecting not just 'information' but 'desires' and 'deep rooted beliefs') about food than the most optimistic government could hope for in a population, and it all points to what is fast, what is easy, what is sweet-salty-tasty, you watch a whole culture shift to where that is what is normal even in the home, and that's pretty much all she wrote. I don't think it is even reasonable to expect a different result than we have obtained. Our society could not have done better at programming all this if it had been 1000x more organized and tried.

[Demokat]

But - you've just hit on the problem. I suspect (perhaps in a broad generalization I am likely to get flamed for) that most folks on food stamps are not the brightest bulbs on the tree.

Well, Tom, you asked for it! :D

Your quote is correct. Many people who receive public assistance aren't educated. The vast majority are seniors and women with children.

Instead of blaming them, though, blame the crappy underfunded schools and lack of investment in the communities where they live. Human beings by nature want to better themselves. If you put enough obstacles in their way, eventually they'll give up. You can't keep kicking somebody down year after year, decade after decade, century after century, and then blame them for their situation. It is much easier to blame the victim though, and focus on the 'culture' that makes them that way.

Compound the social situation above with the idiots who deem it's OK to buy chips and soda with food stamps, and you have an obesity epidemic.

[Demokat]

In a world more and more of families that have nothing but one parent who is never present because they're either working or exhausted, that lineage is dying.

I didn't learn to cook, to garden, to can, to plan meals, to sew, to budget or conserve, in fact to do ANYTHING useful, unless cleaning is considered useful. I learned effectively nothing from my "family" growing up. This included missing minor things such as how to interface with people.

Had I not been an unusually gifted and obsessive reader from the age of 5 my life would be radically different. I've had to seek out and educate myself about nearly everything in life including stuff that even in the most casual family, most people learn as part of growing up.

People I know who don't read seem doomed unless they have substantial education/fluency in other areas to compensate. I can tell which of my kids' acquaintances are readers, even at age 11, just by how they behave -- the readers have some depth the non-readers don't have. It's just the experience of however briefly 'being' many different people I suppose, that reading provides. I've really seen a substantial difference in people who read for pleasure vs. don't as adults (the marked exception being people who don't read for some physical reason like dyslexia); it's like there is some depth of thought missing. I guess when your entire perception of reality is limited mostly to the television, this just changes your "depth perception" or something.

I am sincerely working toward lowcarb, I have a better income than most people in my region, and although I'm a single mom I work from home. Despite those fabulous advantages, it is still difficult for me. Not the eating -- who cares, lowcarb food is great -- but the planning, the budgeting, the shopping, storing, the preparing, cooking, cleaning, etc. This is an entire LIFESTYLE -- food-related stuff "dominates" the minimal spare time that I have, and after a life of spending zero time on it besides a drive through line or nuking something in plastic (when I bothered eating at all) it is a huge, huge adjustment. And frankly I don't think I'd do a fraction as well if I didn't have years of reading about LC and the last year especially of interacting with people about it.

I think there is a difference between becoming informed, and then taking responsibility for yourself, vs. evaluating others as at fault for their ignorance, whatever the source of it. One can be self-determined but still realize that without a lot of the experience, exposure, and self education we have obtained, people would be lost, not through any "fault" of their own, just through the circumstance our culture and governments have encouraged to flourish.

I have lived or worked near welfare neighborhoods at times, lived in a van for 8 months once in California (on purpose actually-- I was working p/t but as an executive at the time!) which exposed me to tons of stuff I didn't know about -- and interacted with what amounts to a subculture in our society. Some people are on welfare because they are just poor. Often single motherhood, illness, or age relates to that. However, a vastly greater percentage are on welfare because they haven't the education, ambition (which relates to education of many forms, I'm talking self-education here not just school), to do otherwise.

I've met so many people who couldn't read a newspaper well, couldn't balance a checkbook -- these people short of some radical change are NEVER going to be budgeting well, planning carefully based on menus, doing the math to convert or scale menus, they're not going to *understand* nutrition frankly, and most of them would not comprehend the need for it anyway. The TV says do this, or sitcoms demonstrate people doing this, and they will do it. This is not because they are stupid, it is because people will model what they are exposed to, that is the way humans work.

No matter what the government regulations say, they aren't reading those. You could enforce watching a 60 second commercial every day on what makes good food, and still, the sheer enormity of media-blitz exposure (and in-store/etc. exposure) to food-related advertising would make any good advice a needle in a hayst-- well, in a looming continent-sized iceberg. You raise people on more "indoctrination" (affecting not just 'information' but 'desires' and 'deep rooted beliefs') about food than the most optimistic government could hope for in a population, and it all points to what is fast, what is easy, what is sweet-salty-tasty, you watch a whole culture shift to where that is what is normal even in the home, and that's pretty much all she wrote. I don't think it is even reasonable to expect a different result than we have obtained. Our society could not have done better at programming all this if it had been 1000x more organized and tried.

Great post, rightnow. :thup:

[PilotGal]

the affluent get fat too. they eat out all the time..
it's not just a poor thing.

and as for obesity.. last time i was at disneyworld, my toes got run over by 3 scooters. it frustrated me so much that i said to my friend, "they should have one day set aside for just scooter people."
and disneyworld ain't cheap!

[Demokat]

I'm in NE OK (Ottowa County) and I agree. I used to sit outside walmart in my car waiting for my ex to come out with just a few groceries he was running in quickly for, and I was just astounded. I would sometimes count the people, looking for a percentage of who was 'normal' vs 'overweight' vs 'obese' vs 'morbidly obese' and frankly, the % of 'morbidly obese' seemed to me to be waaaaaay over the national standards, and that of the obese and overweight as well.

I thought maybe it just seemed more to me, because I spent most of my life in Southern Coastal California which actually had better weather then than it does now on the whole (I noticed the weather pattern changing over the course of my life), and seems to emphasize outdoors-ness and fitness. Maybe some is that two seasons a year here you can't operate outside at all, for heat or cold. I don't know.

At the christmas parade, half the band in the jr and high school are fat, even the bleeping flag twirlers are often obese -- this was unheard of when I was in school, you could not qualify to wear a spandex leotard in public if you were 13 and 60 lbs overweight! But apparently there are so *many* kids obese now that the standard has changed. It's shocking.

I don't think better weather tells the whole story. A couple of the New England states (MA, CT) and Colorado usually rank in the least overweight states, along with Hawaii (what I wouldn't give for their year-round weather!). Colorado has an outdoorsy culture and generally sunny weather, but MA and CT have crap weather. I think affluence and access to fresh food are factors in these states. Maybe it has something to do with access to public transportation too. We tend to walk more.

When I travel for business, I do notice the differences. In Boston, I was always the fat person in the room. When I go to the Midwest or the South, I was one of the thinnest. Maybe it's the car culture, always having to drive somewhere vs. walking. Or the access to fresh foods and quality of food. Or poverty. Who knows.

I went back to my high school yearbook recently and tried to remember who was overweight. Out of 50 kids in my graduating class, only two were overweight, and not more than 40 lbs. I also can't believe the number of overweight teenagers these days. It's more the norm than the exception.

[cartersg1]

Because my daughter also came with Medicaid, we get her vaccinations through the county health department. There are racks of flyers and brochures on all kinds of topics in the waiting area. The flyers about nutrition contain the processed, carb-heavy food pyramid along with information on a "balanced" diet. Again, 6 - 10 servings of pasta, bread, grains and potatoes are what they are advocating. SIX servings of pasta...per day??? Granted a serving size is small relative to the portion size most people think of but still, this is out-dated information. The WIC information on the wall wasn't any better. Sugar, starch, sugar, starch...yuck.

My DD asked me why we didn't have any cookies in the house. I told her that Mommy can't eat them and they really aren't that good for her and Daddy. Mommy makes good food for her that is better than all that processed stuff in the grocery store. She thought for a moment and told me it was okay if I didn't get cookies. What really bugs me is that, if the kids are good all day and stay "in the green cup", they get a snack of SKITTLES!!! Sheesh!! No wonder she comes home hungry even after a good lunch. All that sugar spikes quickly. I REALLY want the school to change it but, of course, the Skittles are donated and they can't seem to ask the donor to change their minds. I used to be a professional fundraiser - there are ways to approach a donor with information to allow them to make the decision about what to do. We have taught our DD that good behavior IS a reward unto itself - no privileges are removed, no toys taken away.

When good eating is not a priority or even "on the list" in the home, then it's a tough battle. Come home, plop in front of the TV and play video games until dinner, eat dinner, then plop down in front of the TV in your room so your parents can have the TV for their shows...it's a vicious cycle. And they drag chips, dip and soda into their room, maybe even have their own stash. It's interesting that while our interest in cooking is up greatly, our ability to do so is not. I love my little cooking schoolin the country. I have such a great time. I get a lot of praise for my cooking and everyone so darned impressed that I could make something so complicated or time-consuming. It's not complicated nor time-consuming if you plan, I say.

Obesity cuts across all incomes and groups. At a time when food shows are hugely popular and cookbooks are flying off the shelves, kitchens are HUGE investments and come with double ovens, dishwashers, vegetable sinks, professional gas ranges and Sub-Zero refrigerators, we are cooking less frequently. Go into new model homes and look at the size of the kitchens and all the amenities. My DD WILL leave this household, armed with cooking knowledge and enjoyment (or so I hope). I don't want her to face what I face - the need to lose weight. But the deck is stacked against the kids - carb-fest school lunches, incorrect nutritional information and fast food advertised for a fast lifestyle. Is it any wonder??? Cheers!

[ReginaW]

What really bugs me is that, if the kids are good all day and stay "in the green cup", they get a snack of SKITTLES!!! Sheesh!! No wonder she comes home hungry even after a good lunch. All that sugar spikes quickly. I REALLY want the school to change it but, of course, the Skittles are donated and they can't seem to ask the donor to change their minds.

Have you considered providing an appropriate snack (or perhaps even stickers or whatever) for your daughter and tell the school administration and teachers that under no circumstances are they to give her skittles?

[rightnow]

My little girl is overweight. It is the social nightmare of her life. Not to mention the physical nightmare, since she does karate. I'm determined to improve her lot in life, her health, her education about food and cooking, everything I didn't have. She wants to lose bodyfat. Desperately.

The problem is, crappy food tastes better to people who eat crappy food. Getting even adults off it is not easy, and most adults have the ability to refrigerate a lunch and nuke it for example. Getting a sixth grader off it is harder still.

Her school lunches look like a nationwide experiment in how to make everybody diabetic eventually. No matter what I feed her at home, she goes to school and eats breaded chicken fingers or corn dogs, canned corn or something, potatoes or french fries, canned fruit salad, whitebread roll, some kind of 'dessert', and a milk for lunch -- which means unless it is summer break I have no way of keeping her off enough carbs that doing so would keep her from craving carbs.

So I bought her these neat japanese trays-in-bags-with-chopsticks lunch boxes she thought were really cool (she's a total japanophile for some reason), planning that we would send lunch with her. But it turns out that's not nearly as easy as I'd planned. She doesn't like several things (such as peanut butter) that might help, and it can't be anything that needs heating or refrigeration, plus her friends might not think its cool (god forbid), plus she LIKES at least some of the school lunches.

Although she understands the school lunches are crap, at 11 years old she doesn't seem to have the maturity/discipline to skip them, and I think if I leaned on her it might just make her feel deprived and neurotic and sneak food, the last thing I want to invoke.

So the government requires 7 hours of her time, doesn't allow chilling or heating anything for food, and feeds her utter crap. Alternatively, I can find something to send with her some of which might either be embarrassing because it's different or, as she is prone to do (like me), might be prone to just make her skip eating altogether. MEANWHILE, and this is the part that gets me, they are ALREADY on occasion "teaching about nutrition" and she comes home sure that we should be eating tons of rice and bread and "whole grain pasta" and that meat and eggs and butter will not only make us fat but kill us.

Then she goes to her grandparents house where my stepmother, a diabetic who completely wallows in the glory of an official diagnosis (she was such a hypochondriac before I think it finally legitimized her LOL!), she is like a walking poster for the ADA, and will go out of her way to insist that her mom shouldn't be eating all those eggs let alone feeding them to her and on and on, but she figures baked potatoes and whole wheat dinner rolls are healthy food, so that's more for the kid. Grandma won't spend time with her for like 2 years now but just suddenly got the urge to have her over for a day and teach her how to make egg noodles (massive quantities of flour with some egg, kneaded like dough, flattened, rolled up, sliced, then untangled on cookie sheets to bake. Or is it boil. I forget). Not to mention refuses to let her drink anything with her meal, something she read somewhere apparently -- at the least she should be drinking *before* the meal, the body desperately needs water for digestion, sheesh.

I suspect she may have a gluten intolerance at some level which doesn't help since the low carb bread/wrap/tort stuff is way higher in gluten.

I think sometimes the reason I'm not more frustrated about my weight is because my gradual weight loss seems so much easier than ANY for her.

[cartersg1]

rightnow, I'm with you! My DD asks to be a "buyer" - someone who buys the school lunch. At $1.50 a piece, no way. Twice she's forgotten her lunch box at school. She told me five minutes before leaving the house so I had no choice but to give her lunch money. I didn't notice it wasn't on the kitchen island the previous evening because I get home late on Mondays and Wednesdays. ANYWAY, the second time, I had enough time to put a lunch in a grocery bag and send it on. She was not happy about it. I told her that I did not like the food served to her in the cafeteria - it was tasteless, bland and not good for her growing body. I do have those pangs of "celebrity" when it comes to my daughter - will she be singled out for the wrong reasons? Some kid has already called her beautiful curls "poofy". It's a constant struggle but I'm sorry - if your "cool" factor depends on what you eat, you're just going to have to lose points there, kiddo. My DD is a bi-racial child and I will not let her have friends who force her to choose between her "colors" in order to fit in and have friends. And I'm not going to let her feel their sting of impropriety because Mom is a good cook and she benefits from it. Forget that. I'll take myself to that school and give a cooking lessson to the entire class...

ReginaW - you asked if I had talked to the school yet. The answer is yes; at least with a couple of the teachers. I have not had a chance to talk with the principal. Food should never be used as bribery for correct behavior. It is what then builds in a child - if I'm good, I get candy. NOT! Some people think I'm just crazy for my ideas. They don't bother to understand - oh, a little candy won't hurt. It's not the candy; it is the association that goes with it. She does get candy once in a while but not on a regular basis! Our nephew cannot have corn and so no corn syrup so he can't have candy. MIL went out and bought two HUGE candy Easter eggs this year for both of them - TWO each! It was made from hardened buttercream frosting and 99g of carbs each!!! I shoved one in the back of the pantry and one that was open into the back of the frig, hoping they would be forgotten and it was then I tossed them.

In any case, I would be the "bad guy" for trying to outlaw Skittles. My daughter opts for carrots and a little ranch dressing for a snack or an apple...or a banana. But the rest of her classmates? Sugar...or fast food. The kindergarten picnic at the beginning of the school year was dominated by fast food. Only three moms bothered with the picnic basket. We sat together, overlapping our blankets with one another. I'm sometimes made out to be the "bad guy" because I don't take my DD out for fast food and those silly toys. So I do battle on a daily basis but I will not give in. ASK ME before you give my child something (I won't even get into the issue of Christmas and birthday gifts). Most days, it's fine but once a in while, because there's some code about rites of passage for a child, I get someone who says "oh, it won't hurt her" and will defy my requests. Cheers!

[black57]

If faced between choosing beef heart or frozen pizza at the same price, the poor shopper is likely to choose the frozen pizza because that choice seems more palatable. So, I think the problem still remains making healthier, palatable foods more affordable.

Since most of these high carb convenience foods are made with products that are government subsidized to the Nth degree, they are hugely affordable to the lower income class. Perhaps the answer is to roll back these subsidies or to reverse how they are apportioned. I don't know.

However, until we can make that frozen pizza the same price or even more expensive than a healthier alternative, I doubt we will see that many people reaching for beef hearts or liver just because it is healthier. We need to make all fresh, whole foods more affordable.

I am telling you, at this income level, people will be driven more by their affordability level and what is deemed healthy will come second. This is out of sheer necessity for their own financial survival.

I know this comment is late but, have you ever seen beef heart?. I have only seen it in the butcher's case all sliced up. It looks delicious.Beautiful slices of red unmarbled meat.It isn't sold as a whole organ. If you didn't know what beef heart is, you couldn't look at it and conclude that it tastes bad. It actually tastes very good and it is tender. Beef heart was a discussion on the boards here several years ago.That is where I first heard of using it for fajitas and stir frys. It is very reasonably priced. If I were poor and understood the importance of a low car diet expecially among the poor, I would develop a taste for beef heart. Just like I have developed a taste for liver. I am going to see if I can find the discussion.

[LessLiz]

I know this comment is late but, have you ever seen beef heart?. I have only seen it in the butcher's case all sliced up. It looks delicious.Beautiful slices of red unmarbled meat.It isn't sold as a whole organ. I have never seen it sliced, only in large chunks.

[southbel]

I have never seen it sliced, only in large chunks.
I concur. Here, they have it primarily in chunks as well.

[black57]

Well, perhaps they cut it in slices or strips to make it look more appetizing. I get it on ocasion at Stater Bros. and it looks very good. It tastes better than liver.

[reecesmama]

i have to admit, i found the discussion on food stamps very interesting....i am a single mom and full-time college student and changing my lifestyle to low carb has been VERY hard on my finances! i have always been the one to compare all ad prices & then shop at walmart (they honor all competitors ads) so i used to get two weeks of groceries for under $40-50, i didn't buy junk like cookies or chips..but we did eat rice, pasta, fruits & veggies on sale, etc -- VERY rarely meat, i couldn't afford it...i now easily spend $100-120 on groceries & that's still feeding my son with a lot of "ad busters", meat, almonds, different types of flours, etc...it can get VERY expensive...i think that a lot of people take forgranted what other people don't have....

-i am a senior in college & am still wearing my clothes from high school, i can't afford anything new

-my son's clothes are all bought at garage sales & from the 99 cent colour of the week at goodwill -- as well are his toys

-i borrowed his crib, changing table, etc

-my son will not get a christmas present from me this year, because i know he is only 2 and won't remember and that his grandparents will get him something

-i unplug everything at night, wash clothes in cold water, keep my theromostat low, all to save a few pennies

BUT i am a VERY happy individual! through having next to nothing, i have come to appreciate everything that comes my way! i have a roof over my head, will soon be in graduate school, and i have the most amazing son

...i think that americans have a problem with overconsumption in many different aspects - too much food, too much stuff, too much shit....simplify!!!

[reecesmama]

and just to add in - in NE, the average amount a person receives in food stamps PER MEAL is 79 cents! try planning a decent meal with that...because here you get food stamps only if you have next to zero income....so that's really all you have to make a meal!

[cartersg1]

I wish I could say "no Skittles" to my daughter's school. If I had known it from the beginning, I would tell them not to do it and give them an alternative, like stickers (which DD LOVES). But it was 6 - 8 weeks into the school year before I realized what they were doing. There was a box of Skittles on the teacher's desk at the orientation in August but nothing mentioned about giving them as a reward. At least I don't remember it. A lot of weird information was thrown at us at weird times - a lecture on how to drop off your kids in the morning was given in MAY during the first kindergarten screening and dealing with school lunches if the kids buy it. Like I'm going to remember that all summer?? There were three different orientations, all giving out different information. Anyway, if DD had allergies, I would have paid more attention. DD gets wound up, with and without sugar. In any case, I WILL do something after the Christmas break. I intend to bring in a HUGE stockpile of stickers. But I will discuss it with DD before I do it. She needs to know what we're doing and why, even if she doesn't understand. Maybe the other kids will choose a sticker or two over Skittles, although I doubt it. Frankly, I don't care IF they do. But I do plan to sit down with the principal - the very same woman who lectured us on dropping off kids back in May. She's very scattered, from what I've been told. I'm trying to remember if the school has vending machines...I'm not sure. The lunch menu is just plain gross...

I have not needed antibiotics for any sinus or upper respiratory infection this year!! It is a milestone because I've decided it's cheaper to eat right than spend hours in the doctor's office and waiting on scripts to be filled. A 10am appointment is often not seen until 10:45 - it's a HUGE hassle. But I still have to make the choice to eat right and get some exercise rather than camp out in front of the TV. Some of my students have 200 channels and I argue that there's STILL nothing on worth watching for long. So mcuh time is spent in front of the TV and computer and video games - we need to make the individual decision for our families that will be the best in the long run. The short term may be tough but what do we want our future to be? More of the same??? Cheers!