Can't feed 17-year-old enough on paleo menu

[Mrs. Skip]

My 17-year-old son agreed to try eating the healthy, paleo way with DH and I. Previously, he would eat the paleo meal I cook with DH and I, and I would make additional food for him, such as rolls and pasta or potatoes, and there would be plenty of snacks for him, such as nuts and ice cream and fruit and sandwiches and sometimes chips and cookies. He eats alot.

He is currently 6'1", 150 pounds, healthy, active, lean and wiry, plays sports, lifts weights. He will probably end up around 6'5" or so. (DH is 6'4" and son appears that he will be taller than dad, based on hand and foot size.) Anyway, so he is a kid who is still busy growing.

Anyway, I put a lot of time and effort into giving him plenty of healthy food for the short-lived experiment of having him eating totally paleo and healthy...(no grains, no sugar.)

He ate enormous amounts of everything I gave him...it was extremely expensive, to be honest. He would eat most of the 3-4 pound roast I would make, and he'd eat all his vegies and handfuls of nuts to snack on....apple or two for dessert, a bowl of berries, and then fry up 4 or 5 eggs, and he was still looking for food...

But in the evening of the third day, a few hours after a big dinner, he finally said he was just too hungry and he drove over to Burger King and ate three Whoppers, king-size fry, a large coke, and then a shake.

He didn't do it to be rebellious...(in fact he went with my blessing!)...he was just too hungry. And I was already tired of trying to keep him fed and not hungry by feeding him this expensive paleo food.

Has anyone else had this experience? I just can't figure out how to feed a large appetite enough healthy food, and in a way that doesn't cost the entire month's food budget in a week.

We have gone back to our old system of eating, (him eating the healthy meal, and then a whole lot of other stuff) simply because I can't figure out how else to do it. He said he'd be willing to do all paleo again, as long as there is plenty of food and he isn't hungry.

Any ideas? I'd really like to see him eating all healthy...since under normal circumstances, he does eat a lot of sugar and grains....

I am sure that this can be done...Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! :)

[AimeeJoi]

i know it's not really paleo but my boyfriend has a hollow leg too :lol: and to fill his stomach in between meals and also cut the cost of groceries he eat apples sliced thin and basically uses the slices to scoop peanut butter into his mouth. He can eat almost an entire jar with 1 apple. Actually now we are a little more financially stable and he uses almond butter which is more paleo but also way more expensive. For $3.00 your son could eat 1 big apple and a jar of natural peanut butter (whole foods unsweetened brand) I bet this would at least put a dent in his appetite for awhile. Also bananas and plain yogurt (about 1 lb at a time) is another not really paleo thing that my bf eats in between or after meals if he's not full enough, but it is better than Burger King imo

[MeatGood]

Here is the simple answer:
He is addicted to sugar and grains…

Now the longer explanation:
3 days is far too short of time for your body to fully adjust to this way of eating.
In the beginning you will crave things, and your mind will make up all kinds of excuses to get them. People used to eat this way for hundreds of thousands of years. If it did not work, we would not be here today. I really don’t think he was starving eating as much as he was, I think he was just not used to it. His body was craving this that and the other thing and he gave into it. It takes roughly a week and a half minimum to start to get adjusted. At first you will tend to eat huge quantities of things, because you have cravings and your body is used to all the carbs. and sugar, its not getting them so you feel like you need to eat and eat.
But after a short bit, like I said, more like 1.5 weeks, you will start to adjust and your portions will decrease.

So like I said, he is addicted to grain and sugar and 3 days is way to short of time to fully adjust.

But really, it is hard to get anyone to change their eating habits unless they truly wish to.

[fetch]

I don't have the answer for you. Maybe cut the fruit, nuts, and dairy down and/or out and try something more akin to Atkins Induction by feeding a ton of non-starchy vegetables first (cheap), then fat (little more expensive), then protein (expensive) until he's "satisified but not stuffed" to get the "hunger" under control? Be advised it'll take closer to a week or two than a day or two of eating this way to do so.

I mean, I understand growing boys eat - I watched multiple brothers and associated friends well over 6" go through puberty. The refrigerator in the house fetch grew up in was a barren wasteland more often than not. But your son's eating habits sound extreme. I can't help but wonder if he's confusing carbohydrate cravings and/or any wavering of his blood glucose values with "hunger". And honestly, his portion sizes sound like they are out of control.

[Nancy LC]

Well... eggs are not expensive. If he needs more calories what about dates, bananas, nuts (Trader joe's has great prices on nuts), coconut milk shakes. Add more fats to his food. Chicken is usually pretty reasonable.

If you still can't fill him up, how about adding dairy before resorting to cheap carbohydrates like grains?

[Mrs. Skip]

Thanks for the suggestions...I think I can try some of these suggestions...adding in more fats like coconut oil in his food, and more dairy, more fruit, and the peanut butter with the apple thing...maybe trying to fill him up strategically...

(BTW, he doesn't normally do the Burger King thing, but I had no excess food in the house at the time.)

I can't help but wonder what paleo man did with his teenage sons...

As far as DS's appetite being excessive, I don't really think so. Not if you look at the activity in his day, and calculate that he is still growing taller at the same time, and at a pretty rapid rate right now.

Weekdays-
Wake up, go to school (sometimes biking the 4 miles on nice days, although sometimes driving.)
Have gym class during school
After school sports practice, usually 3-4 hours of intense exercise
Come home, eat alot
Go downstairs to basement and lift weights, about one hour
Hang out with friends most evenings, playing tennis or basketball or football (just pickup games for fun) and this usually lasts a couple of hours until he goes to bed

On Saturdays, play high school sports game, later in the day work for construction company carrying sheetrock, moving rocks, etc. In evening, usually play more sports with friends. (Just turned 17, just starting to think about girls. So far, no dates yet. :lol: LOL Maybe someday soon that will change things to less sports, who knows!)

On Sundays, hike in the mountains for fun after church, or go swimming at the gym, and work out with weights, and jog on treadmill.

IMO, he is burning a heck of a lot of calories simply in activity, and growth takes a lot as well. I have no idea of the actual number of calories he consumes/burns in a day, but he is so thin and wiry that it is definitely not an excess.

His goal in life currently is to become buff. (Wish it was to get a scholarship to a good college.... ;) )

His body fat is only 5%, which is really low. (He doesn't get this from my side of the family. I have the opposite problem! ;) :lol: ) DH and his side (as well as my other kids) are all tall and lean, and tend to stay slender throughout the stages of life. So he seems to be genetically programmed not to store much fat. That side of the family seems to somehow "waste" their calories. They all eat quite a bit more than my side of the family...who tend towards short, round and dumpy... :lol:

Anyway, I'd still be interested in any more ideas! At this stage of his life, it just takes a lot of calories to fuel all that activity. He may be addicted to sugar/grains, but I think he was suffering more from lack of calories, since he was getting quite a few carbs in fruit and berries, etc. (Although it was less carbs than he was used to eating. )

Still, he would have preferred eating more roast beef to anything else. He loves meat and vegetables, always has. Maybe that's why he's so willing to try paleo! It is usually me telling him that three pounds of meat is enough, and to fill up on cheaper stuff! :o (the truth comes out....) :o

I'm going to try these suggestions, so we'll see what happens....honestly, it had turned into a full-time job just trying to keep him fed....that's why I got tired of it after three days!...but maybe I can try again...

[fetch]

Good luck. Do let us know how it works out.

[PlaneCrazy]

It's been shown in studies, Gary Taubes mentions this in his new book, that people who burn a great many calories can definitely handle many more carbs without the concomitant insulin spike. So I wouldn't worry too much if he does eat the carbs, especially if they're unrefined, such as fruit.

If he's serious about cutting the carbs out and eating paleo, then the only answer is fat. Fat, fat, fat. Tubs of sour cream are not that expensive and are pretty filling. The peanut butter (he can handle the extra carbs) will work well, as will drinking whole milk, especially if you throw in a carton of heavy cream into the whole milk to boost the fat level a bit. Cheese is also great in terms of concentrated fat. Dairy delivers the highest fat-per-dollar that I've found.

Bulk sausage is also pretty cheap and low-carb. (down here in the south we get great, local brands. Not the best quality of meat, still somewhat factory farmed, but the flavor is incredible.)

Fat will fill you up, period. I don't care how hollow your leg, if you want to feel full, then go for the fat. Five ounces of fat will fill you up more than five ounces of carbs, no question. It sounds like for him, it may need 5 POUNDS of fat instead.

As MeatGood said, though, that was definitely not enough time for your body to adjust. You may need to stock up on lots of fatty foods for the first week. After his body, which I'm sure is screaming for more fuel, switches, his eating will settle down. My concern is that the switch will be pretty extreme in someone that active. Perhaps his young system will adapt easier than old crusty ones like mine, but it may not.

Even if he decides paleo is not for him, and he wants to eat carbs, make sure that as many as possible are un-processed carbs, like those found in whole foods: potatoes, carrots, brown rice. Dont' skimp on the fat even then. It sounds like he will be able to use as much fuel as you can throw at him.

Good luck!

Plane
Who once could eat like that and stay skinny. Not anymore. :rolleyes:

[TarHeel]

When I first started low carbing in the spring of 2003, my extremely active, underweight, husband was still alive. I'd make a low carb, high protein, high fat supper, with an added starch such as rice or baked potato or corn on the cob for him, and a little while afterward, he would eat an an apple, half a can of roasted peanuts, and at least two cups of Starbucks ice cream.

He never gained weight and he was in his late forties, early fifties. Had to be the daily exercise at work and at home in the yard. Drove me nuts, it did.


It sounds as though your son is just needing the extra carbs and calories. I wouldn't worry about it. At least he's learning to stay away from the refined sugar, etc.

Kay

[ProteusOne]

Here is the simple answer:
He is addicted to sugar and grains…
I would suggest following this logic. It does take a while to rid the body of these cravings. And sadly for some of us they may never go away.

[Ann1231]

My son is 17, 6'5", 202 pounds. He eats peanut butter by the bowl for snacks and that makes him feel really good. He also munches on nuts, leftover meats, apples (not many though), carrot sticks in peanut butter, cans of tuna or chicken...not what you'd call paleo in the can but it makes him feel good and it's still a lot better than sugary, carby garbage. He is extremely strict with his diet. He also lifts weights and does the whole sunrise to way past sunset schedule. I'm exhausted trying to keep up with him!

His first week or two of paleo was tough but he was very determined to see it thru and now it's been a few months and he's loving it and just ran thru the living room in his boxers bragging about his great body :rolleyes: He's being silly but I do have to say his confidence has increased so much because he really DOES have a great physique now!

[PlaneCrazy]

This would be a good diet for a young man, especially one who is on the skinny side, because the amount of protein you eat encourages the body to build muscle and gives it plenty of fuel with which to do it.

I've noticed that even my broken down old body (43) has been building more muscle since I've been eating this way again, and I'm not even exercising! It's been a strange phenomenon. It's almost too good to be true, but I sit at a computer all day and the most exercise I get is playing with my two-year-old son in the evenings and mowing the lawn on the weekends, maybe an occasional bike ride.

And yet, I'm losing weight steadily, and I'm gaining muscle, or at least tone in my existing muscle.

If I had a young, active body (I definitely wouldn't tell my wife :) ) I can only imagine what it would do with all of this fat and protein for fuel. I would probably be running around in my boxers bragging about my body as well. Of course, all that would do is make my wife laugh herself silly, but that's another problem. :D

Plane

[MeatGood]

I wish CVH would post to this one.
If I remember right he does body building and I don’t think he has a problem getting enough calories at all.

I personally run 6 miles a day, and again don’t seem to have an issue with getting plenty to eat.

One option though, if he loves Burger Kind, I would go there and buy like 5 whopper Jrs without the bun and have those for lunch. They are 99 cents a piece, which works out to like lunch under 5 bucks.

[Janja]

I think it's too facile to simply say your son is "addicted to sugar and grains," Mrs. Skip. When delegations of Indians (who I am guessing ate pretty "Paleo") toured Philadelphia, Boston, and Washington during the time of the Lewis and Clark expedition, their hosts had a hard time feeding them. A native man might still be hungry until he had eaten many rabbits (the numbers 9 or 12 are what stick in my memory) in one day. Their hosts were amazed at how much they ate.

Now this could be because the Indians would eat as much food as they could when food was available, but I also believe that a muscular, energetic, well-exercised man (especially a young one) requires huge amounts of food. I remember when my brother was a teenager he would eat a whole box of cereal and a carton of milk for breakfast, and he would order two dinners when we ate out. He was thin as a rail.

I'm not trying to argue with anyone, your son may indeed be addicted to sugar and grains, and it is probably best for him not to eat them. But I agree with those who say he probably needs to eat some of the healthier carbs (and plenty of fat too, of course) in order to get enough calories for the fuel he needs. I agree that those who are very active and muscular can tolerate carbs better than the rest of us can... the healthier carbs, of course. This will help stave off bankruptcy, too!

[ProteusOne]

I think it's too facile to simply say your son is "addicted to sugar and grains," Mrs. Skip. When delegations of Indians (who I am guessing ate pretty "Paleo") toured Philadelphia, Boston, and Washington during the time of the Lewis and Clark expedition, their hosts had a hard time feeding them. A native man might still be hungry until he had eaten many rabbits (the numbers 9 or 12 are what stick in my memory) in one day. Their hosts were amazed at how much they ate.

Now this could be because the Indians would eat as much food as they could when food was available, but I also believe that a muscular, energetic, well-exercised man (especially a young one) requires huge amounts of food. I remember when my brother was a teenager he would eat a whole box of cereal and a carton of milk for breakfast, and he would order two dinners when we ate out. He was thin as a rail.

I'm not trying to argue with anyone, your son may indeed be addicted to sugar and grains, and it is probably best for him not to eat them. But I agree with those who say he probably needs to eat some of the healthier carbs (and plenty of fat too, of course) in order to get enough calories for the fuel he needs. I agree that those who are very active and muscular can tolerate carbs better than the rest of us can... the healthier carbs, of course. This will help stave off bankruptcy, too!
But how will one ever know if the large appetite is a result of carb addiction without giving the test a fair chance? I mean, this teen could be being set up for a whole host of problems for later in life - healthy now or not. How can you advocate higher carbs for someone if you really think about how the idea of eating Paleo came about? Sounds like an addiction talking.

I speak from experience here. I also have a teen who's thin, very thin, and can sit down to whole pizzas and 2-litre sodas. In fact, he out eats his overweight father. However, on the occasions that he eats the way I do (meats and veggies) for several days, his appetite decreases, his energy level increases, and he becomes much more balanced. I see it time and again. Of course, he thinks it's horse shit, but I'm not the only one who notices.

I'd say at least give the logic of it some thought.

[Janja]

But how will one ever know if the large appetite is a result of carb addiction without giving the test a fair chance? I mean, this teen could be being set up for a whole host of problems for later in life - healthy now or not.
You may be right, Proteus.

How can you advocate higher carbs for someone if you really think about how the idea of eating Paleo came about? Sounds like an addiction talking.


Nope, not me. I am pretty well carb-free (except for berries, nuts, low-carb veggies), and going low-carb has done great things for my health and well-being. I only brought this up because what I read about what the Indians ate when they traveled to Washington (see Undaunted Courage by Stephen E. Ambrose) really made an impression on me. I thought, "This must be what healthy active young men are supposed to eat!" But you're right, it would be a good idea to test for carb addiction.

[MeatGood]

It still sounds like the classic addict and enabler scenario to me.
The addict claims that they can’t possible stop doing X because it is not good for them and they come up with many reasons, among these is that perhaps they are different and special and being clean just isn’t right for them. The enabler tired of trying, gives in and will help support the addiction and look for excuses why they have to do this.

Your example talked of rabbits, last time I checked rabbits are pretty lean meat and not much meat on them to begin with. Unless these were Jack Rabbits or something.

What I know from first had experience is if I have some carbs. I get really hungry, I will eat everything in the house. When I start low carb I feel like this for about 3 days to 10 days, depending, but that is just me, I hear some it can take like a month before they detox completely. During this time I am super hungry, but not really hungry, I am snacky, feeling like I should eat and I have not eaten anything good. It is not like my stomach is growling or anything, I am just feeling “hungry”. But after a bit my body starts to get used to it, and then I recognize when I am truly hungry and not just craving things. I watch my portion size become smaller because really I am not craving any more. At this point I eat a healthy normal amount.

Plus, on top of this all, I used to actually be an athletic health teenage boy at one time. I remember eating more, but I remember the ton of junk food I used to eat as well. I also remember that it would have been a difficult thing for any parent to try to force me to eat “healthy” simply because I would not have wanted to.

As for teenagers, no one really can say what is the best approach here besides the parent. I know I don’t try to make my kids eat Paleo. They are both thin and healthy so as long as they stay that way I am not forcing anything. But I do know if this changes, at least I have something I can offer them to do, that will help.

So now I have to wonder, why did you try to get your teenager on this WOE Mrs Skip?

[Nancy LC]

Hasn't anyone here ever had a fat bunny? I remember we had one when I was a kid, he was a fat, mean old rascal.

[ProteusOne]

What I know from first had experience is if I have some carbs. I get really hungry, I will eat everything in the house. When I start low carb I feel like this for about 3 days to 10 days, depending, but that is just me, I hear some it can take like a month before they detox completely. During this time I am super hungry, but not really hungry, I am snacky, feeling like I should eat and I have not eaten anything good. It is not like my stomach is growling or anything, I am just feeling “hungry”. But after a bit my body starts to get used to it, and then I recognize when I am truly hungry and not just craving things. I watch my portion size become smaller because really I am not craving any more. At this point I eat a healthy normal amount.
This is exactly what I go through. Great description of this great paradox.

[Ann1231]

What I know from first had experience is if I have some carbs. I get really hungry, I will eat everything in the house. When I start low carb I feel like this for about 3 days to 10 days, depending, but that is just me, I hear some it can take like a month before they detox completely. During this time I am super hungry, but not really hungry, I am snacky, feeling like I should eat and I have not eaten anything good. It is not like my stomach is growling or anything, I am just feeling “hungry”. But after a bit my body starts to get used to it, and then I recognize when I am truly hungry and not just craving things. I watch my portion size become smaller because really I am not craving any more. At this point I eat a healthy normal amount.



I agree, this is a great description. This is exactly what I went thru and can relate to still.

[Mrs. Skip]

I appreciate all these great replies. :)

Meatgood, you asked why I tried to get my son on this WOE. I really didn't try, just one day I said, "would you want to just eat all paleo and not the filler stuff?" and he was excited to try it, since he doesn't like the filler stuff much anyway, except to fill him up when he's still hungry. He has always much preferred "real" food, even as a baby. His natural inclinations are much more paleo than the inclinations towards diet of me, or DH, or any of our other kids (all DD's). (The rest of us have to make an effort not to eat a bowl of ice cream or a warm cinnamon roll when faced with temptation...) Whereas my son, even as a toddler, has always preferred meats and veggies to treats of any kind. Back in the days when I had believed the low-fat, high-carb hype, I found it quite odd and frustrating! What toddler wants a scrambled egg instead of a cookie?! And yet he did!

Janja, I really liked your input about how hard it was to keep the Indians fed. I feel a little like that right now!

I honestly don't know if I can keep DS filled up enough over the long haul without resorting to fillers. (Unless I win the lottery somewhere and have lots more money to spend at the grocery store!) I think I'll try to adapt some of the good advice given here, by adding more fats to his food, and put more effort into being sure that the fillers are healthier.

I hope he's not addicted to grains and sugars, because he HAS finally learned to like sugar more as he's gotten older...and as a reformed sugar addict myself, I wouldn't wish that on anyone! :lol:

[Nancy LC]

I'm on board with the carb driven hunger too. His body is just, so far, able to deal with the excess glucose by metabolizing it rather than storing it as fat. But the insulin load is going to catch up with him someday and it'll turn to fat instead of getting frittered away in futile cycles.

I bet if he can withstand the transition to low carb for 2 weeks, his appetite will get much better.

[Mrs. Skip]

Now if only I can figure out a way to snare 9-12 rabbits each day...or perhaps a small deer... :lol:

[CVH]

For that one meal:

calories:4014

Fat: 263g 2367 61%

Carbs: 51g 164 4%

Protein: 342g 1366 35%

Assuming he eats more than one meal a day, he could be easily eating 150grams of carbohydrates a day. That's enough to make anyone hungry.

Carbs=Sugar, FACT, no matter where they come from.

An 80% fat 20% protein diet would be optimal, that would include very fatty cuts of meat, very little plant matter and maybe 1/2lb or so of butter if needed. I doubt he would be "able" to follow it. But that is what I eat and I am very active. Average day I "walk" about 10 miles, run 6-8, do about 2 hours of calisthenics, an hour or so of swimming and one hour martial arts and end my night with stretching and relaxation.

I never "snack", I wait till I'm hungry and eat 2-4lbs of meat, that could be twice a day, once a day or once every 2 days.

If I was eating like he was, I'd be hungry all the time too and would need to go to BK.

In short: Add alot more fat and alot less carbs and protein. There are many cheap fatty cuts of meat and fatty dairy products that do not cost alot and always buy in bulk.

One more thing, Don't listen to anyone telling you it's ok to eat cancer promoting, diabetes promoting, teeth decaying, etc... foods(Poison) just because there are no "visual" effects from them or immediate dangerous effects.

I used to smoke 2-3 packs a day, drink more than anyone I've ever known and do tons of drugs. I looked at some of my pictures back then, I look the same, I did not look "unhealthy" infact, I looked very healthy like I do now.

Does that mean I should start again untill I notice any visual effects AND then stop? That's an extremely idiotic way to look at it.

[CVH]

Now if only I can figure out a way to snare 9-12 rabbits each day...or perhaps a small deer... :lol:

http://www.victorpest.com/canada/traps.asp

You could always buy one of those and a cheap air rifle.

[dragonlfy]

Hm that is a tough one.

First off, I think there is some flexibility in his case due to special circumstances.

1. He's growing rapidly
2. He's very physically active
3. He's a big guy

I dont think everyone is addicted to grains and sugar, even though they are very addictive in nature. So I'm not going to accuse your son of being addicted especially because you said he's more of a meat lover anyway.
But I'm sure he has a fondness for junk food like most of us. Even wild animals do! There may very well be that element of dissatisfaction and that is driving him to eat more. And I think it's far more complex than saying someone is addicted. There's a whole interplay of hormones involved.

I know for me, despite totally believing in the paleo way of eating ( and I keep trying to stick to it) no matter how much I literally stuff myself with meat and veggies and fat and even fruit, I am not satisfied. Less so than when I add in just small amount of rice or sweet potato or something. I remember one night in particular, (and I am only 5 feet around 100 lbs) I ate over a pound of seafood in one sitting with veggies and berries on the side, then later on went out and got a rack of ribs and a salad. So despite having a physically rotund belly, I didnt have that feeling of being truly satisfied.

(I am aware that humans need 0 g of carbohydrates to survive and definitely wont die without starchy foods or dairy :) )

I dont know if this applies to him but it's just a thought.

When it comes right on down to it, we're all human beings, but we come in all shapes and sizes with different and unique metabolic demands. I think there is certainly some variance, to a degree. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that perhaps for him, and especially for this time in his life, it would be fine to just do the best you can and have the bulk of his diet as paleo centered, and the rest can be some of the healthier non paleo foods like starchy veggies, grains and dairy. The 80/20 rule.

However before doing that, I totally agree with everyone else here about upping the fat and fatty meats as well as nuts. Also what about frozen veggies to fill his belly? Those are cheaper than fresh. I would certainly try this out first. He may well start to see his hunger diminish, and as long as he eats enough calories and is not losing weight, and most importantly, is happy eating what he is eating, than maybe it will work out for him.