Uses and Abuses of Induction

[Karen]

More sage words from Dr. Atkins in the new edition of DANDR...

Uses and Abuses of Induction

Induction not only jump starts your weight loss, it is also a convenient refuge to which you can retreat whenever you need to get off a weight loss plateau or to get back on the program after a lapse. So, if you’ve fallen off your lifetime maintenance program for whatever reason, you can return to induction, and, like the ignition of an automobile, it will get your engine to turn over and start you down the road again.

If you reached your goal weight before slipping off the wagon for a brief period, you won’t have to do induction for long – just until you get back into lipolysis and the secondary process of ketosis. You’ll know that has happened when you once again experience the ability to be in control your appetite – the feeling that was such a revelation after the first forty-eight hours of induction.

These are perfectly appropriate uses of induction. However, Induction can be abused, and that abuse can ultimately threaten your ability to maintain a healthy weight. First of all, if you retreat into induction every time you stray, you may begin to reinforce a dangerous pattern of behavior. By knowing Induction is there as a refuge, it may keep you from following the guidelines of the stage you are in. For a minor infraction, or even a day of cheating, there is no need to go back to induction. Simply drop down 5 or 10 grams for a couple of days, or go back to the previous phase. It is important that you learn how to eat properly as a way of life. Zigzagging back and forth between Induction and lifetime Maintenance means you have not integrated this new, healthy eating pattern into your life.

Another more serious concern I have is the impact this back-and-forthing can have on your metabolism. (See "The Wrong Way to do Atkins." (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29249&highlight=atkins+abusers) I have heard people say, “I love doing Atkins because we can cheat on weekends, then go back to induction Monday morning.” While this behavior pattern may work in the short term, it will probably backfire in more ways than one. It’s likely that your metabolism will adapt at a certain point – in a sense, developing a tolerance. People who repeatedly regain weight and then go back to Induction sometimes find that they do not experience the dramatic and easy weight loss they initially enjoyed. Add in the fact that none of us is getting any younger and our metabolisms natural tendency to slow down with passing years. Finally, your body pays a price healthwise if you dramatically switch back and forth from a fat-burning to a glucose-burning metabolism.

If you keep retreating into Induction from Lifetime Maintenance, it becomes a form of yo-yo dieting. I’m not saying you shouldn’t go back to Induction when you need it, I’m simply saying don’t do it regularly, in the belief that it will always work the same for you. You may be in for a nasty surprise.


From the new edition of Dr. Atkins New Diet Revolution, Avon Books paperback edition, January 2002.

[rustpot]

Wise words from the Master but slightly troubling nonetheless.

There has always been comfort in the low carb equation:

Carb reduction to level X = ketosis = weight loss

But if

"its likely that your metabolism will adapt at a certain point - in a sense developing a tolerance"

if we Yo Yo Atkins, I would love to know the bio - chemical reasons why.


What is the effect on the body from going from a glucose burning metabolism to fat burning to glucose burning and back again?

This is more of a rhetorical question aimed at the Dr. But if anyone does know the answer you know where to find me.

[razzle]

good questions, rust. I can tell you (and Wa'il and others can verify) that LC did not work as well the "second time" (after a month lapse) for me. I can only assume if I continue to do this, eventually it will not work for me at all as a method of fat loss.

The more general answer is that our body has powerful mechanisms that protect our body fat (or our "set point weight" if you prefer that concept). even when the calorie intake exceeded 10,000 per day ] What those mechanisms of fat-protection are, not even the most expert obesity researchers know. hormones, enzymes, the sneaky ability of the body to add fat cells only at four times in life (0-3, puberty, pregnancy, and when rebounding weight back after a diet) but never to lose a single one of those fat cells (we only lose fat molecules out of the cells, not the cells themselves). They are pretty sure they know the why--which is an evolutionary biology answer regarding survival and the protect of fat stores. I realize you wanted a more specific answer regarding the precise mechanisms, but I honestly don't think it's out there ...if it is, I haven't run across it in my recent researches.

Karen, very useful post! I gotta convince myself to raise those carbs again!

[ngarbade]

well apparently this is so true......I have gone on and off atkins several times. And now when I am on I can go a month with no weight loss..i get discouraged because of no weight loss....and get off the diet....feel guilty.....get back on again..... :( is there no end to this madness...........AND will I eventually start to lose again

[joanie]

After losing about 60 lbs on Weight Watchers in 2001, and then gaining back about 10 or so over the holidays, I decided that I wanted to try something different from WW. I was tired of buying low-fat everything (it's not required, but you use up all your "points" very quickly if you eat full-fat foods) and I was tired of dealing with points.

When I started the plan (around Jan, '01) I ws nursing my daughter full time and WW is one of the few plans that has a nursing program. I was able to eat a lot of points and lose weight, because nursing burns about 500 cals a day. I never completely stopped losing weight on WW if I followed the plan, I just got bored, and wasn't enjoying the meetings that much. Since I didn't really stall, I don't think I'm "metabolically resistant". But induction has not been that dramatic for me. I'm exercising, doing the program properly, in ketosis, and weight loss hasn't been any greater than it would have been on WW. That's kind of disappointing. And no, I'm not losing a tremendous amount of inches, either. And yes, I drink water like a fiend (always did do that.) We'll see what happens when I weigh in this Sunday, but right now, I wouldn't call induction a dramatic weight loss method. It's pleasant to follow, but I don't know if I'll get to my goal weight doing it. And that's a little disappointing.

[lowcarbQT]

Here's my very unscientific take on this particular tidbit from Dr A.

"its likely that your metabolism will adapt at a certain point - in a sense developing a tolerance" Seems if ya turn the switch off and on too many times, eventually you burn out the switch.

Seriously though, I think he's refering to homeostasis. It would seem to me that if you factor that in and ,say ,do the weekend carb fest/induction monday your body would adapt. It would come to expect that. Then on the other hand if that was the case, what would be the point of CCLL? am I making sense?

I especially liked this little tidbit really, if only for the fact that it's suppossed to be a WOL not a quick fix.

[gwilson38]

This is an excellant post. Since I just finished posting a reply to "meat fast", thought I should clarify my postion on it. I do totally agree with the fact that if U continue to run to induction everytime U cheat then U havent learned anything. But at the same time I find that because low-carbing is a WOL I will need lots more time to fine tune it. Im gulity of doing a meat fast at least once every couple weeks, however in the last few months over all, day to day my carb count is way up and yet I still am able to maintain my weight. Like Doctor Atkins says, This is one plan U can personalize to your own needs.

[tlcdoula]

I have a question about induction.

What if you never go far from induction ?

I agree and know its true that each time you cheat and go back on its harder to lose the fat. The first time I was on I lost 40 lbs in about 6 months.. It was awesome.. Then for some stupid reason I quit and gained 20 back. I went back and forth on atkins and didnt lose anything.. then went to low fat for 4 months and went to the gym.. didnt lose anything either. Now since being on atkins started again Jan 3 I have lost about 10 lbs. Not as much as I would have liked but at least it is something.. Now if I can get the scale moving again I'll be sooo happy :p

But everytime I have been eating low carb I have not gone much over 20 carbs a day, except on special occasions.. so Im wondering if my body has become adapted to this..

[ngarbade]

so is the back and forth thing aimed at people that eat on the weekends and then LC during the week??? usually i atkins for 4 or 5 months then get off a while.....it seems this time NOTHING is coming off even on induction. Is there a way to correct or jump start this?

[razzle]

there's no way I know to correct it OR the lowered BMR from low-cal dieting. I'm sure the trials that might work for anyone else might not work for the next person. I've tried nearly everything I can think of--upping calories and gritting my teeth through the weight gain, going paleo, a CKD (actually worse in weight gain than anything else I tried), eliminating potential allergen LC foods one at a time, exercising everywhere from 30 to 150 minutes per day, focusing those hours on weights, focusing on cardio, slow cardio, hard cardio; I've had my doc test for T4, T3, DHEA, blah blah blah blah, looking for a mechanistic solution. All I have to show for it is shorter teeth (from the frustrated grinding ;) )

I've concluded that the only "solution" is: accept a slow loss and learn the lesson that diets don't work. They are known to cause worse obesity along with a host of ailments. Treating LC as a diet will also render it ineffective for many people. If you have the genetic predisposition to it (hint you might: childhood onset of obesity), every time you go off, you're consigning yourself to a slower loss and higher final weight. All you can do is permanently change your lifestyle--eating and movement and attitude--and accept the rate of loss and the final weight you balance out to. There's no good data about the long term effects of this "WOE" approach, either--it's possible the body would even adapt to this moderate approach and regain to set point weight eventually. We'll have to be the experimental lab rats for that!

For yo-yo dieters in particular, if you start out at 300 (to choose some random numbers), you may not ever lose below 200--but if you can maintain 200 forever, be able to now physically do what you couldn't, lower your BP and cholesterol, celebrate! If my current weight is the lowest weight I can reach, eating and exercising healthily, I want to take it with grace and cheer. Don't get fixated on not looking like a fitness model. If you had the genetics for that, you'd look like that eating hot fudge sundaes twice a week. (an act that would stall the typical hyperinsulimic forever)

someone here--LC sponge, I think--did it right. One shot, no history of yo-yo dieting, took her 20 months to lose a moderate amount of weight, she's still staying with maintenance. For those of us who have a lifetime of doing it wrong, we may well have to accept more moderate definitions of success.

whenever I post a realistic view, I keep thinking about how unsucessful it would be as a diet book--lol--we want to hear the magic solution exists, and it really may not for all of us.

[Karen]

One shot, no history of yo-yo dieting, took her 20 months to lose a moderate amount of weight, she's still staying with maintenance.

This makes me laugh ruefully to myself.

I don't have a history of yo-yo dieting, but I have a long history of trying to find the optimum way to eat for balance - physical, mental and spiritual. All of those ways included vast amount of carbs, whether it was big bowls of brown rice, or low fat chocolate sorbet.

The only time I ever lost any weight with one of these endeavors was a flirtation with food combining about 15 years ago. In retrospect, I was starving myself because I had chosen the vegan version! Thank God the addictive pull of carbs made me gain weight again!

So, through low-carbing I've come to see that for all those years I was feeding my addiction, and that's why I never got anywhere with finding the balance. Now I am.

Karen

[allisonm]

This is a great thread. Thanks for starting it Karen; I don't have the new edition of Atkins.
Originally posted by razzle
even when the calorie intake exceeded 10,000 per day ]I am both horrified by this study and curious to know more. Can you give me a reference to it Razzle?

Originally posted by razzle
For those of us who have a lifetime of doing it wrong, we may well have to accept more moderate definitions of success.Depressing thought. So there aren't people who tried low-fat over and over again, saw the light, made the switch and are now living thin, happily ever after? I guess I just assumed they exist.

What you're saying certainly rings true, though. I think my long history with low-fat diets has permanently slowed my metabolism. I've been taking my temperature throughout the day for a week and I never get above 97.5 degrees. I even tried taking a thermogenic twice today to see if it would have any effect. After a thermogenic, a cardio workout and a hot shower I was still below 97 degrees. I think I've been tested for hypothyroidism in the past with negative results.

How about if we don't yo-yo Atkins, if we just stick with it? Can we recover?

Most importantly: Am I making things worse by eating 40 gms. carb one day and 15 the next? Must I make it perfectly even all the time?

Allison

[Karen]

Most importantly: Am I making things worse by eating 40 gms. carb one day and 15 the next? Must I make it perfectly even all the time?

I think as you get further into this WOE, as you fine tune and find out what the optimum way of eating is for you, it will matter less. If only for the reason that you are very comfortable with it and it really is your WOL.

Listening to what you need is the key. Once you get completely past cravings and have a good grasp of them, then you can really listen to what your body is telling you.

I think it's important to "eat by numbers" at first because it's a big part of retraining yourself. You find out about carb counts, hidden carbs, caloric intake and what combinations make you feel physically good. Once you're trained, you don't even think about it. Then, you can just enjoy!

Karen

[razzle]

allison, the citation is in this long (but fascinating) article on the failures of dieting and behavioral therapy as treatments for obesity:

garner article (http://web.jadeinc.com/bigbeautifulpeople/garner.htm)

Above (and always), I'm just theorizing about the slower/more moderate success for some of us in LCing. My theory (which is informed but not expert, so take it with a mixture of half lite salt and half regular ;) ) goes--all these things will make it harder for you to lose and you'll lose more slowly:

yo-yo dieting in the past (lf or atkins--both result in similar problems)
being female
childhood onset of obesity
being over 35 (or so)
hyperinsulinemia by test, symptoms, or gestational diabetes

I have rationales for listing many of these (medline research, Adiposity 101's summaries of research, the article I linked above, and more), but would love to see more data collected and analyzed. I suspect that Atkins does not work at all for some people, but those people drop out and don't hang out on BB's, so it's impossible to quiz them and try to find common characteristics for that group.

Even for us turtles, I think it's worthwhile to hang in there, tho--a size 14 is better than a size 28 any ol' day, and the health benefits are so good, why go back to the old way?

[Marlaine]

Karen.....

Interesting information there from Atkins. Thanks for posting it.

I really must get that new book!

Marlaine

[allisonm]

Thanks for the replies Karen and Razzle. I agree with everything you've said. I do get exasperated, though. I qualify for a slow metabolism by every single one of your criteria Razzle!

Allison

[kachookat]

Originally posted by Karen


Listening to what you need is the key. Once you get completely past cravings and have a good grasp of them, then you can really listen to what your body is telling you.

Karen

Thanks for this Karen. And please tell more. I started Atkins on Jan 22 and have been almost perfect for induction. The one time I ate a cookie (Valentine's Day), I noticed the next day the sugar cravings were really knocking on my door. And this past week it was there again just for the fun of it. Is this the death throes of my sugar fang (overgrown sweet tooth) or what? You make it sound as though eventually it will go away. I sure hope so. What can you tell me?

Also, the comments somewhere in this thread about controlling appetite are really nice too. I'm actually hungry in a healthy way I haven't felt for years. Overall I feel like my whole system is healing and happy. That's a nice way of life to establish for oneself, eh?

I'm enjoying everyone's comments. Please keep them up.

Oh, one more question. Why the emphasis on Splenda? I found one called Sweet One which is readily available in the grocery stores, has no carbs, and even less aftertaste than Splenda. Is it cursed some way?

Thanks again.

[Karen]

The less sweets you eat - and this includes artificial sweeteners - the more your cravings will diminish. Every time you eat something sweet, you stand a chance of physically re-addicting yourself to sweets. It is also very easy to become dependent on artificial sweeteners. If you have no problems with using artificial sweeteners - craving them, thinking about them - then you are probably safe.

I don't know about the sweetener you are talking about. Canada and the US have different ones and although the names may be different, they can be made out of the same things. Check the article on Sweeteners in Low Carb Tips at the top of the page. You can heat Splenda and it's supposed to be "safer" than other sweeteners, but I suppose that's relative to what you think dangerous is.

Karen

[tinkerbell]

I have been on Atkin's Induction since Jan.1/02 and have lost 24 pounds. I feel great. I have been slowing down on my weight loss but still losing 1-3 lbs. a week. When I started I weighed 192 lbs. and am down to 168. This is the first diet that I have stuck with this long. I plan on losing 50 lbs. :wave:

[MsRachel]

Well, I'm glad I read "Jumpstarting Induction" before I read this topic, but I'm equally glad that I did read this topic. It gives me balance. I am re-starting Atkins today. The first topic I read was full of encouragement and motivation and really made me take steps to re-start today versus tomorrow or Monday. But, reading this post brought me back to earth so I wouldn't set my expectations real high and then when I am inevitably unable to meet those too high expectations, then quit. I like this quote from Razzle's post:

Originally posted by razzle
For yo-yo dieters in particular, if you start out at 300 (to choose some random numbers), you may not ever lose below 200--but if you can maintain 200 forever, be able to now physically do what you couldn't, lower your BP and cholesterol, celebrate! If my current weight is the lowest weight I can reach, eating and exercising healthily, I want to take it with grace and cheer. Don't get fixated on not looking like a fitness model. If you had the genetics for that, you'd look like that eating hot fudge sundaes twice a week. (an act that would stall the typical hyperinsulimic forever)

So, now instead of being disappointed that I'm not losing as fast as I did the first time around I will take whatever I can lose with grace and cheer! If 195 (which is the lowest I got the first time around) is the lowest I can get, than sobeit. I will focus on treating this as a way of life and not a diet.

I want to read that this is a magical way to lose weight, but I need to read that this is a way of life and take baby steps to change my habits forever. Thankfully, I can do that here, I can read about everyone's successes, those first-timers really lose fast, LOL and I can read about the slow steady losses of the turtles. It's wonderful! Thank you for starting this topic Karen and thank you all for the information you contributed.

Rach

[Natrushka]

Originally posted by MsRachel
So, now instead of being disappointed that I'm not losing as fast as I did the first time around I will take whatever I can lose with grace and cheer! If 195 (which is the lowest I got the first time around) is the lowest I can get, than sobeit. I will focus on treating this as a way of life and not a diet.

Rach, this is a great attitude to adopt :) Losing fat is wonderful, no doubt about it, but LC has so much more to offer. I firmly believe that only when it becomes more than a diet to you, do you truly experience all the benefits that come with a LC WOL.

Cheers,
Nat

[Lessara]

Only one time in my life have I ever dieted and lost weight. I've tried lots of diets but lost no weight at all. So am I a yo yo dieter?
Or just a person who loses weight with differculty?

[Atrsy]

I am an yo yo dieter from way back, in my mid 50's, taking HRT, and I am a very slow loser. From what I learned from this thread, my weight is not because of genetics, it is because I caused it by my own habits.

I really was hoping that combining Atkins with an exercise program, I could up my metabolism and eventually lose the weight. Now you are telling me that I may only get to 200 and never get to be thin--ever! What a depressing thought.

But as was stated in this thread, the benefits from this program are so wonderful that I too will be happy if I can just keep from gaining more. I love the extra energy, the extended endurance, the clean teeth, the ability to sleep at night, etc. And at my age, I always think that a little extra weight is good in case of illness. I will have reserves available to me that thin people don't.

I WILL NOT QUIT!

[razzle]

msrachel and atrsy--good attitudes! self-acceptance and a shift to "health" as a goal more important than "looks" is a shift that I think will do a lot of us much good.

Lessara, I think yo-yo dieting means having lost and gained, lost and gained. How many times or how much weight to make you an "official" yo yo-er? That I can't say. I've lost 50 3 times and regained it, and 25 another 8 times and regained it...and spent a decade eating 500 calories a day most days, so I'm certain I qualify. :rolleyes: As far as I know, there's no evidence that people who lower their calories for a short period of time but achieve no weight loss suffer either loss of BMR or LBM that those who DO lose suffer, which is probably part of what creates that turtle effect.

[Marlaine]

Originally posted by Atrsy
I really was hoping that combining Atkins with an exercise program, I could up my metabolism and eventually lose the weight.

Atrsy...

I had a bit of a rough start with Atkins myself (it's all there in my journal if you are interested). I persevered though, with the help from my doctor and my newfound friends here, and I feel that I've achieved a wonderful level of success. Like you I thought adopting an exercise program as well would help. Today marks the end of my 7th week doing Body for Life and I've already seen results. My ultimate goal is not just a number on the scale, but a LBM to support the way I'd like to be eating.

I know it takes time for our bodies and metabolism's to adjust to this WOL, but they do in fact adjust eventually. Keep on keeping on. You CAN do it!

Marlaine

[Karen]

Bumpity-bump!

Karen

[Natrushka]

Bump Bump!

[VALEWIS]

Razzle, enjoyed your post hugely as I believe you are right...as you point out, if you are genetically going to be a fat storer and are not naturally thin, then it is going to become a compromise regarding appearance, with emphasis on being healthy and well exercised, and responsivity to ketogenic diet is going to be very individual (as are most things in life).

I feel good on this WOE even though I am not losing any more weight/fat. My only concern though, and I wish someone knowledgable would speak to this, is whether or not the current statements eminating from the powers that be re diet requirements is that being under 100 g a day carbs is not sufficient for brain energy needs..even factoring in higher protein levels, most Atkins eaters are not getting enough glucose according to this.

Any thoughts anyone?

Val

[LadyBelle]

is whether or not the current statements eminating from the powers that be re diet requirements is that being under 100 g a day carbs is not sufficient for brain energy needs..even factoring in higher protein levels, most Atkins eaters are not getting enough glucose according to this.

Before someone starts to rant about all the links being from the Atkins web site and biased, look at them. They are compiled by the Atkins web site, but are other studies and articles not origionating from Atkins.

This is completely false. For one thing protien is converted into gluclose. Also the carbs we eat are also converted to gluclose. Even in the complete absence of carbs the body will make gluclose. The brain can also use keotones for energy. Reference: Amiel, S.A., "Organ Fuel Selection: Brain," The Proceedings of the Nutrition Society, 54(1), 1995, pages 151-155.

Summary:
This review article analyzes fuel utilization of the brain. The brain’s first choice for energy is glucose. However, when glucose is not available, the brain uses ketone bodies. Using ketones meets the energy requirements of the brain and maintains its proper function.
http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/1/11-434439.html

Simply put, ketosis is evolution's answer to the thrifty gene. We may have evolved to efficiently store fat for times of famine, says Veech, but we also evolved ketosis to efficiently live off that fat when necessary. Rather than being poison, which is how the press often refers to ketones, they make the body run more efficiently and provide a backup fuel source for the brain. Veech calls ketones ''magic'' and has shown that both the heart and brain run 25 percent more efficiently on ketones than on blood sugar. http://atkins.com/Archive/2003/1/20-542932.html

Proof of this. My blood gluclose levels hold steady around 83-88 which is well in the normal range. If I was having low blood sugar enough to effect health, it would have to get down around 40. The only time my blood sugar would get that low is when I used to be on a higher carb low fat diet. The reason for this is you eat a ton of carbs which raise your gluclose levels. Your body produces a rush of insulin and can over compinsate, driving your gluclose too low. Kind of like the crash down from caffine.

[Suzan]

Okay, what can I expect? I have been doing Atkins since November of last year and have lost 41 lbs. Over the summer I decided to try and maintain the weight and add other foods. Basically I added a fairly good bread, had lots of fruit, had dinner out now and then....I had what I wanted but I never went crazy. I kept a close eye on my weight and it would up a couple one day, down a couple the next...I told myself that come Labour Day I would go back to being more strict, which I did. Also, over the two months I maintained the 41 lbs. weight loss which I was very happy with.

Now that I have gone back to Atkins will I have to wait until it starts coming off again?

Thanks.

Suzan

[red1cutie]

Hi Suzan! Congrats on maintaining you weight. Now that I have gone back to Atkins will I have to wait until it starts coming off again? If by that you mean how long will it take before you start losing again there is no one answer since everyone is different. I did read somewhere that each time you do Atkins it becomes harder and harder to lose at the rate you lost the first time you did Atkins. Induction will allow you to get back into ketosis, your cravings will diminish and you should begin losing again.

Peace
red

[Paleoanth]

Suzan-

If you followed an Atkins maintenance plan (and to me it kind of sounds like you did) then you never really went "off" Atkins. I don't think you should have too much a problem with restarting weight loss.

This is such important information. I am currently in Premaintenance/Maintenance and one of the things Atkins does say is that people can get to their CCLM for the week by going higher carb a day or two and then lower carb a day or two as long as it averages out. That is what I have done. That allows me to be a bit freer on one night a week where I have darn near anything I want (except actual sugar), without gaining weight. I will probably drop back to OWL in a week or two just to drop 5 more pounds. I seriously doubt I will go back to induction as I want to hold that in reserve, just in case I ever need it in the future.