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Marc Verha
Wed, Jun-20-07, 17:16
Algis at AAT (+ my comments --MV):

I don't think anyone has posted this before but if not, I
thought it might be of some interest to read what Jablonski
wrote about the AAH in her latest book "Skin" (I have included
relevent footnotes with the text where relevant): Jablonski,
Nina G 2006 "Skin - a natural history" University of
California "Explantions for the nearly hairless state of the
human body abound. Without direct fossil evidence that could
document the timing and content of hair loss in humans,
scientists have proposed likely evolutionary scenarios using
comparative anatomical, physiological, and behavioural
information, as well as varying amounts of imagination. The
resulting hypotheses range from the well founded to the wacky,
with hairlessness being attributed to everything from a
heritage of swimming to nit-picking. The best supported
theories involve the importance of sweat in human evolution

(MV: Just-so statement without evidence (perhaps elsewhere
in her book?), but not impossible: overheated sealions
on land sweat on their naked hindlimbs.)

- the topic of this chapter. It might be useful, however, to
take a look at some of the other ideas that have gained
notice over the years. The explanation that has had the
greatest popular appeal is the so-called aquatic ape
hypothesis [1 - Hardy 1960, Morgan 1982]. According to this
idea, the beginning of the human lineage around six to seven
million years ago was marked by an aquatic phase, during
which ancient hominids - a term that describes all the
members of our lineage since we last shared a common
ancestor with chimpanzees - lost most of their body hair,
gained a layer of body fat under the skin (subcutaneously),
and made the transition from being routinely on four legs to
standing and moving on two (that is, became bipedal.) [2 ­ a
definition of the term `hominid']

(MV: Hardy thought the semi-aq.phase happened more than 10
Ma. Elaine has no clear opinion, but AFAICT she used
to believe it happened after the H/P split & before
the apiths. I don't think most people who know
something on AAT still believe that. Jablonski is
ill-informed: why not read the recent literature on
AAT before trying to discuss it?)

As evidence of the aquatic phase, this hypothesis notes that
fossil remains of our distant hominid relatives of our distant
hominid relatives are most often found in the vicinity of
ancient lakes.

(MVI: Not so: AAT evidence is based on *comparative* data.)

It also observes that several of the anatomical
characteristics of modern humans, such as hairless bodies and
subcutaneous fat, are shared by aquatic mammals like dolphins
and whales. In the peak years of its popularity (the
1970s), the aquatic ape theory - which sounded relatively
simple and described out ancestors swimming and carrying
babies in water - seemed an attractive alternative to
the other hypotheses then available for the emergence of
humans, many of which cast our beginnings in a context
of mindless violence and conflict. [3 ­ Notes that in
the 60s and 70s lots of work promoted hunting and that
this inspired works such as Ardrey's `African Genesis'
suggesting that human ancestors were `killer apes'.
Jablonski concludes: "The enormous popularity of the
aquatic ape hypothesis was a reaction against Ardrey's
view of human nature" pp187] The aquatic ape hypothesis
is not, however, supported by the facts.

(MV: Jablonski doesn't address the SC fat & furlessness,
but simply states her belief on the matter.)

Let's look at the situation in which our distant ancestors
found themselves in tropical Africa.

(MVI: ?? "our distant relatives"(when??) in trop.Africa"??
Hasn't Jablonski heard of the retroviral data, which
suggest our ancestors were absent from Africa 4-3 Ma??
This alone makes what follows irrelevant.)

First, a hominid ancestor who spent much of its time in a lake
would have had to enter the water from the shoreline. For
millions of years the shores of African rivers, lakes and
waterholes have not been friendly places. Thick with
crocodiles constantly on the prowl for hapless prey,
shorelines are dangerous places where few animals linger. Our
hominid ancestors, only about one metre (a little over three
feet) tall and lacking claws, big teeth, or weapons, would
have been no match for such formidable predators.

(MVII: Apparently Jablonski still believes she descends
from Lucy??)

Even if they managed to get into the water, ancient hominids
would have faced other big problems. Human skin has few
defences against the waterborne parasites that live in African
lakes and rivers. In the African tropics, one of the greatest
health risks for people who spend time in and around water is
schistosomiasis, a parasitic infestation caused by a tiny worm
that can swiftly penetrate and migrate through the skin. Many
other parasitic diseases are transmitted to humans this way,
leading to untold numbers of deaths and a calamitous loss of
vigour and livelihood for many populations who depend on water
[4 "In addition to diseases that involve waterborne parasites
burrowing into the body, malaria - caused by a parasite that
infects a water-breeding mosquito - leads to even greater
morbidity and mortality throughout the tropics" pp187].

(MVIII: Ever heard of the untold deaths & calamities caused by
lack of water?? Moreover, there is no schistozomiasis
in seawater.)

If hominid ancestors had lived in an aquatic habitat during
their early evolution, the human immune system would reflect a
history of assault by such parasites. It doesn't. Only in the
last ten thousand years or so have we started spending much
time in the water, as we developed agriculture and fishing,
and our immune systems have not yet been sharpened by natural
selection to resist the attack of the nasty organisms that
inhabit these freshwater lakes and rivers.

(MIX: Just-so statements without evidence & relevance &
wrong AFAICS.)

The aquatic ape hypothesis also doesn't adequately explain why
hominids would have evolved hairless skin. Naked skin is
advantageous to fully aquatic mammals like whales and dolphins
because it reduces drag and buoyancy. This is especially
important when the animal is diving or speeding along in the
water, either in search of food or on long-distance migration.

(MX: Just-so statements without evidence. Human hairiness
is as in other tropical medium-sized semi-aquatic
mammals such as babirusas (+-naked, but patches of
hairs). No need to construct far-fetched
"explanations".)

But we have no evidence to suggest that hominids ever engaged
in such activities, although they have occasionally foraged
along shorelines and in shallow water for shellfish and
similar food.

MXI: There is obvious behavioural evidence: that humans as
opposed to chimps can dive for severql minutes & can
swallow food underwater proves our ancestors were
parttime divers once.

[5 - "The idea that hominids may have utilized shellfish and
other shallow-water food resources is currently being pursued
by Alan Shabel, a PhD student in the department of integrative
biology at UCLA" pp187] For animals who spend only part of
their time in water, a naked skin is in fact something of a
liability because it leaves them vulnerable to the problems of
thermoregulation when they are on land. Animals like otters,
fur seals, and sea lions, which weigh less than 1000 kilograms
(or less than a ton) and spend some time on land, are covered
with smooth, dense fur that insulates them against the cold
when they are out of the water. Only the giant semi-aquatic
mammals such as the walruses and hippos, whose large size and
barrel shape make it hard for them to lose heat from the
body's surface, have naked skin.

(MXII: The usual black-white thinking of anti-AAT people. AAT
says human ancestors were medium-sized tropical
semi-aquatics: these animals seem to be about as
haired as humans are.)

In addition, all mammals committed to a fully aquatic or semi
aquatic lifestyle have evolved a streamlined body shape with
small appendages such as fins or flippers to improve their
hydrodynamics and minimize the area of skin in contact with
the water [6 - Wheeler 1985]. If you spend much of your life
in the water surrounded by watchful and hungry predators, you
need to be able to move fast and maneuver deftly in water. The
ancient hominids, in contrast, were fairly short, bipedal
apes, with long gangly arms, who wouldn't have been able to
dog-paddle or defend themselves in the water for five minutes,
let alone spend their days diving and cavorting while swimming
after prey or one another.

(MXIII: If Jablonski had compared chimp to human
hydrodynamics, she hadn't said all that & she had
known that humans are extremely versatile in the
water. Hasn't she heard of the Moken, Ama etc.?)

In short, we didn't lose our body hair because we passed
through an aquatic phase. All the human features that this
hypothesis ascribes to a heritage of swimming and diving can
be explained far more convincingly and parsimoniously as our
adaptations to an active life in a hot and mostly open
environment.

(MXIV: Yes, in short, all antelopes & lions are naked & fat &
run on 2 legs...)

[7 "The advocates of the aquatic ape hypothesis have also
opined that habitual bipedal posture and locomotion originated
while humans were partially aquatic. Many other more
convincing hypotheses that are consistent with available facts
have been developed to account for this key innovation in
human history. George Chaplin and I have advocated a
hypothesis for the origin of bipedalism based on bipedal
social displays as efficacious methods of social control
(Jablonski and Chaplin 1993.)" p187]." Jablonski
(2006:39-41)

(MV: We're no interested in Jablonski's fantasies.
Facts please.)

Thanks a lot, Algis!

--Marc Verhaegen http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT

AAT = Homo littoral dispersal after the Homo/Pan split c.5 Ma.
³Aquatic Ape Theory², contrary to what many PAs still think,
is not about apes, nor about having been aquatic, nor about
australopiths. The physiological, anatomical, behavioural &
DNA differences between Homo & Pan show that our Homo
ancestors some time after the Homo/Pan split ~5 Ma lived at
the waterside (coast/lake/river). AAT says our ancestors after
the H/P split got at Java, Dmanisi, Flores... along the
waterside, not over dry & open plains. A lot PAs now agree
with a warm+wet rather than warm+dry past, eg, Wrangham's
delta hypothesis Ph.Tobias
http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/outthere.htm Chr.Stringer
http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/003982.html

Paul Crowl
Thu, Jun-21-07, 17:18
"Marc Verhaegen" <m_verhaegen@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:C29F41C1.37A6%m_verhaegen@skynet.be...

> The resulting hypotheses range from the well founded to the
> wacky, with hairlessness being attributed to everything from
> a heritage of swimming to nit-picking. The best supported
> theories involve the importance of sweat in human evolution
>
> (MV: Just-so statement without evidence (perhaps elsewhere
> in her book?), but not impossible: overheated sealions
> on land sweat on their naked hindlimbs.)

Like you, she makes the routine error of standard PA --
believing that the species consists only of adult males. The
most naked members are babies, and then infants and small
children. None of them sweat.

[..]

> Let's look at the situation in which our distant ancestors
> found themselves in tropical Africa.
>
> (MV: ?? "our distant relatives"(when??) in trop.Africa"??
> Hasn't Jablonski heard of the retroviral data, which
> suggest our ancestors were absent from Africa 4-3 Ma??
> This alone makes what follows irrelevant.)

It may SUGGEST that. It does not prove it. The extensive
fossils suggest some other story. One (IMO very likely) is
that hominids and baboons were highly competitive and that --
fairly unusually among primates -- one taxon was able to
substantially exclude the other from its habitat, so that
contact was minimal, and the disease did not have the
opportunity to cross-infect.

> First, a hominid ancestor who spent much of its time in a
> lake would have had to enter the water from the shoreline.
> For millions of years the shores of African rivers, lakes
> and waterholes have not been friendly places. Thick with
> crocodiles constantly on the prowl for hapless prey,
> shorelines are dangerous places where few animals linger.
> Our hominid ancestors, only about one metre (a little over
> three feet) tall and lacking claws, big teeth, or weapons,
> would have been no match for such formidable predators.
>
> (MV: Apparently Jablonski still believes she descends from
> Lucy??)

She also demonstrates a near-total ignorance of natural
history. (She must have 'benefited from a training as a
standard PA.) She says that early hominids were " . . lacking
claws, big teeth, or weapons . . ". They were, according to
her, the ultimate in 7-stone weaklings. Hopelessly slow at
running and poor at climbing, they'd have been destroyed
within a generation by almost any of the competing species.

After seeing this, you know that there is no point in reading
her stuff any further. Her 'thinking' is less value than that
of a 5-year- old child.

> Even if they managed to get into the water, ancient hominids
> would have faced other big problems. Human skin has few
> defences against the waterborne parasites that live in
> African lakes and rivers. In the African tropics, one of the
> greatest health risks for people who spend time in and
> around water is schistosomiasis, a parasitic infestation
> caused by a tiny worm that can swiftly penetrate and migrate
> through the skin. Many other parasitic diseases are
> transmitted to humans this way, leading to untold numbers of
> deaths and a calamitous loss of vigour and livelihood for
> many populations who depend on water [4 "In addition to
> diseases that involve waterborne parasites burrowing into
> the body, malaria - caused by a parasite that infects a
> water-breeding mosquito - leads to even greater morbidity
> and mortality throughout the tropics" pp187].
>
> (MV: Ever heard of the untold deaths & calamities caused by
> lack of water?? Moreover, there is no schistozomiasis
> in seawater.)

Idiotic argument on top of idiotic argument. Schistosomiasis
is a HUMAN parasite -- showing that we have co-existed with it
for many thousands of generations.

And there are PLENTY of equivalent nasties in sea-water. The
fact that none parasitise us shows that we have no
evolutionary history in sea-water.

> If hominid ancestors had lived in an aquatic habitat during
> their early evolution, the human immune system would reflect
> a history of assault by such parasites. It doesn't. Only in
> the last ten thousand years or so have we started spending
> much time in the water, as we developed agriculture and
> fishing, and our immune systems have not yet been sharpened
> by natural selection to resist the attack of the nasty
> organisms that inhabit these freshwater lakes and rivers.
>
> (MV: Just-so statements without evidence & relevance & wrong
> AFAICS.)

It's an argument -- and far from a 'just-so statement'. But it
is packed with errors and demonstrates profound ignorance.
Most species have large numbers of unpleasant parasites
against which they have NOT evolved strong defences. In any
case, the 'guinea-worm' (causing schistosomiasis) has been
parasitising humans for a million or more years.

> (MV: Just-so statements without evidence. Human hairiness is
> as in other tropical medium-sized semi-aquatic mammals
> such as babirusas (+-naked, but patches of hairs). No
> need to construct far-fetched "explanations".)

Yep. No need to construct far-fetched "explanations".)

But what does MV immediately do?

> MV: There is obvious behavioural evidence: that humans as
> opposed to chimps can dive for severql minutes & can
> swallow food underwater proves our ancestors were
> parttime divers once.

That must be why human infants can be poisoned by tiny
quantities of salt. It must also be why they could dispense
with a insulative covering of fur.

> In short, we didn't lose our body hair because we passed
> through an aquatic phase. All the human features that this
> hypothesis ascribes to a heritage of swimming and diving can
> be explained far more convincingly and parsimoniously as our
> adaptations to an active life in a hot and mostly open
> environment.
>
> (MV: Yes, in short, all antelopes & lions are naked & fat &
> run on 2 legs...)

AAT explanations of nakedness, etc., may be appalling. But the
standard PA ones can only be described as much worse.

> [7 "The advocates of the aquatic ape hypothesis have also
> opined that habitual bipedal posture and locomotion
> originated while humans were partially aquatic. Many other
> more convincing hypotheses that are consistent with
> available facts have been developed to account for this key
> innovation in human history. George Chaplin and I have
> advocated a hypothesis for the origin of bipedalism based on
> bipedal social displays as efficacious methods of social
> control (Jablonski and Chaplin 1993.)" p187]." Jablonski
> (2006:39-41)

It is extraordinary that anyone would want to propose as daft
a theory for bipedalism as "social displays as efficacious
methods of social control" -- but, in this field, daftness
reigns supreme.

Paul.

McLark
Sun, Jun-24-07, 17:16
"Paul Crowley" <slkwuoiutiuytciuyik@slkjlskjoioue.com> wrote
in message news:VAvei.20460$j7.377623@news.indigo.ie...
> "Marc Verhaegen" <m_verhaegen@skynet.be> wrote in message
> news:C29F41C1.37A6%m_verhaegen@skynet.be...
>
>> The resulting hypotheses range from the well founded to the
>> wacky, with hairlessness being attributed to everything
>> from a heritage of swimming to nit-picking. The best
>> supported theories involve the importance of sweat in human
>> evolution
>>
>> (MV: Just-so statement without evidence (perhaps elsewhere
>> in her book?), but not impossible: overheated sealions
>> on land sweat on their naked hindlimbs.)
>
> Like you, she makes the routine error of standard PA --
> believing that the species consists only of adult males. The
> most naked members are babies, and then infants and small
> children. None of them sweat.

Ahem, Pauly, (so many assertions, so little time) "..routine
error of standard PA -- believing that the species consists
only of adult males." ? I've seen you say this many times
before yet never once saw anything like a reference pointing
to this alleged "routine error". Could it be because there
isn't any? I know female anthro types that have made an entire
career out of the study of gender differences and parenting
roles. They've looked at every aspect of the interaction
between social organization and ecological integration. Whole
books have been written, hell, whole fields of study have been
formed, entire departments have been created.....

I just can't believe that you would say something like that
--a man steeped in the PA literature like you are....;-)

http://www.citrona.com/sarahbhrdy.htm

And what about this "None of them sweat." business? Are you
trying to be clever? Perhaps this is some tounge-in-cheek
reference to your earlier stated digit-less grasp of the
entire field of anthropology? Perhaps you just don't know that
babies and small children sweat?

> [..]
>
>> Let's look at the situation in which our distant ancestors
>> found themselves in tropical Africa.
>>
>> (MV: ?? "our distant relatives"(when??) in trop.Africa"??
>> Hasn't Jablonski heard of the retroviral data, which
>> suggest our ancestors were absent from Africa 4-3 Ma??
>> This alone makes what follows irrelevant.)
>
> It may SUGGEST that. It does not prove it. The extensive
> fossils suggest some other story. One (IMO very likely) is
> that hominids and baboons were highly competitive and that
> -- fairly unusually among primates -- one taxon was able to
> substantially exclude the other from its habitat, so that
> contact was minimal, and the disease did not have the
> opportunity to cross-infect.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how the leopard got
its spots.

>> First, a hominid ancestor who spent much of its time in a
>> lake would have had to enter the water from the shoreline.
>> For millions of years the shores of African rivers, lakes
>> and waterholes have not been friendly places. Thick with
>> crocodiles constantly on the prowl for hapless prey,
>> shorelines are dangerous places where few animals linger.
>> Our hominid ancestors, only about one metre (a little over
>> three feet) tall and lacking claws, big teeth, or weapons,
>> would have been no match for such formidable predators.
>>
>> (MV: Apparently Jablonski still believes she descends from
>> Lucy??)

Isn't it amazing how Marco still believes that the bilge he
spills in this NG approaches rational thought?

> She also demonstrates a near-total ignorance of natural
> history. (She must have 'benefited from a training as a
> standard PA.) She says that early hominids were " . .
> lacking claws, big teeth, or weapons . . ". They were,
> according to her, the ultimate in 7-stone weaklings.
> Hopelessly slow at running and poor at climbing, they'd have
> been destroyed within a generation by almost any of the
> competing species.
>
> After seeing this, you know that there is no point in
> reading her stuff any further. Her 'thinking' is less value
> than that of a 5-year- old child.

And your "commentary" is a waste of bandwidth. I take issue
with your description of "standard PA" as involving "..a
near-total ignorance of natural history." Nothing, it seems,
could be further from the truth. Any casual glance at Ms.
Blaffer-Hrdy's CV, in fact, should be sufficient to dispel
such a notion. Honestly man, have you *no* idea what is
~involved~ in "standard PA"? Graduate level programs
*routinely* require course work ~outside~ of the department.
That's right, if you don't seek to buttress your PA training
with *natural history*, geography, physics, biology,
chemistry, geology, anatomy, physiology, et al, ad-infinitum,
you don't get your sheepskin.

If that weren't enough, you go on to say that "...they'd have
been destroyed within a generation by almost any of the
competing species." That is alot of noise --signifying
nothing. IOW, it is a bald-faced, unsupported, wild and wacky
assertion. What you are claiming is that our hominid ancestors
actually were "..the ultimate in 7-stone weaklings." that you
try to paint Nina Jablonski as believing. Jablonski does not
believe that and I defy you to point to any passage where such
a ridiculous assertion has been printed. While we do not have
fangs and long claws, we are and have long been way more than
our competitors could handle. Your particular lineage aside,
we're quite adept at confronting the physical environment (the
weather, predators, the local carrying capacity) with the
appropriate response. It is what has made us so successful.

[the usual Marco prattle]

> AAT explanations of nakedness, etc., may be appalling. But
> the standard PA ones can only be described as much worse.

So claims the proponent of Australopithecine Dogs. --without
so much as an inkling of what PA's actually say.

>> [7 "The advocates of the aquatic ape hypothesis have also
>> opined that habitual bipedal posture and locomotion
>> originated while humans were partially aquatic. Many other
>> more convincing hypotheses that are consistent with
>> available facts have been developed to account for this key
>> innovation in human history. George Chaplin and I have
>> advocated a hypothesis for the origin of bipedalism based
>> on bipedal social displays as efficacious methods of social
>> control (Jablonski and Chaplin 1993.)" p187]." Jablonski
>> (2006:39-41)
>
> It is extraordinary that anyone would want to propose as
> daft a theory for bipedalism as "social displays as
> efficacious methods of social control" -- but, in this
> field, daftness reigns supreme.

Can you explain to me what "social displays as efficacious
methods of social control" actually means? And then explain to
me the impossibility of same with or without other evolutionay
contingencies? Take all the time you need and remember, this
is a take-home test. You will reference all quoted material
and cheating will not be tolerated.

> Paul.

--
"For whosoever quoteth scripture endlessly hath neither job
nor hobby." II Mumbleonians 4:19

Paul Crowl
Thu, Jun-28-07, 06:16
"MClark" <men@work.com> wrote in message
news:soydnbUwGLo65eDbnZ2dnUVZ_gSdnZ2d@comcast.com...

>>> The resulting hypotheses range from the well founded to
>>> the wacky, with hairlessness being attributed to
>>> everything from a heritage of swimming to nit-picking. The
>>> best supported theories involve the importance of sweat in
>>> human evolution
>>>
>> Like you, she makes the routine error of standard PA --
>> believing that the species consists only of adult males.
>> The most naked members are babies, and then infants and
>> small children. None of them sweat.
>
> Ahem, Pauly, (so many assertions, so little time) "..routine
> error of standard PA -- believing that the species consists
> only of adult males." ? I've seen you say this many times
> before yet never once saw anything like a reference pointing
> to this alleged "routine error".

I only make the point when I see an instance. Of course,
there's never any shortage.

> Could it be because there isn't any?

Read the quote above:
>>> The best supported theories [for sweating] involve the
>>> importance of sweat in human evolution

Babies have less hair than any other members of the species.
Is that because they sweat? Females often have much less hair
than males. Is that because they sweat?

The PA dopes (i.e. all PA types) come up with these daft
theories because their conception of human and hominids is
solely that of adult males.

> I know female anthro types that have made an entire career
> out of the study of gender differences and parenting roles.

Sure -- but it's dumb mouthing of things that their audiences
like to hear -- unsupported by a trace of intelligent thought,

> They've looked at every aspect of the interaction between
> social organization and ecological integration.

They would not recognise an instance of either "social
organization" or "ecological integration".

> Whole books have been written, hell, whole fields of study
> have been formed, entire departments have been created.....

Fake sciences never have the slightest problem generating
"books . . . whole fields of study . . . entire
departments . . "

Dopes like you are always impressed by them. They become
indisputable confirmation of the validity of the 'science'. In
fact, the idea that there is anything that can be questioned
does not even occur to your type of dope.

The Soviet Union had vast institutions of 'Marxist Science' --
huge ranges of 'learned journals' and vast libraries and all
the rest. They all vanished in a puff of smoke after 1989 --
being seen to be utterly meaningless. The same will happen (if
more slowly) to all the PA trash that you respect so much.

> I just can't believe that you would say something like that
> --a man steeped in the PA literature like you are....;-)
>
> http://www.citrona.com/sarahbhrdy.htm
>
> And what about this "None of them sweat." business?

When did you last see huge tribes of infants with tiny spears
in the pudgy hands, charging across the savanna, sweating
heavily, as they chased down the antelope? (Heck -- that's why
they are so naked -- isn't it?)

>>> (MV: ?? "our distant relatives"(when??) in trop.Africa"??
>>> Hasn't Jablonski heard of the retroviral data, which
>>> suggest our ancestors were absent from Africa 4-3
>>> Ma?? This alone makes what follows irrelevant.)
>>
>> It may SUGGEST that. It does not prove it. The extensive
>> fossils suggest some other story. One (IMO very likely) is
>> that hominids and baboons were highly competitive and that
>> -- fairly unusually among primates -- one taxon was able to
>> substantially exclude the other from its habitat, so that
>> contact was minimal, and the disease did not have the
>> opportunity to cross-infect.
>
> And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how the leopard got
> its spots.

Verhaegen and the AAT folks at least try to explain the data
-- the baboon virus gene (present in all African primates --
except humans). All you (and other standard PA boneheads) can
do is pretend to ignore it -- with super-duper-clever comments
of this nature.

>> She also demonstrates a near-total ignorance of natural
>> history. (She must have 'benefited from a training as a
>> standard PA.) She says that early hominids were " . .
>> lacking claws, big teeth, or weapons . . ". They were,
>> according to her, the ultimate in 7-stone weaklings.
>> Hopelessly slow at running and poor at climbing, they'd
>> have been destroyed within a generation by almost any of
>> the competing species.
>>
>> After seeing this, you know that there is no point in
>> reading her stuff any further. Her 'thinking' is less value
>> than that of a 5-year- old child.
>
> And your "commentary" is a waste of bandwidth. I take issue
> with your description of "standard PA" as involving "..a
> near-total ignorance of natural history." Nothing, it seems,
> could be further from the truth. Any casual glance at Ms.
> Blaffer-Hrdy's CV, in fact, should be sufficient to dispel
> such a notion.

Her CV is merely proof that you can be near-totally ignorant
of everything remotely relevant to the subject, yet still
succeed in this so-called 'profession'.

She believes that early hominids had NO DEFENSIVE CAPABILITIES
-- unlike every other species on the planet. How ignorant is
it possible to get?

> Honestly man, have you *no* idea what is ~involved~ in
> "standard PA"? Graduate level programs *routinely* require
> course work ~outside~ of the department. That's right, if
> you don't seek to buttress your PA training with *natural
> history*, geography, physics, biology, chemistry, geology,
> anatomy, physiology, et al, ad-infinitum, you don't get your
> sheepskin.

All you are saying (insofar as you are saying anything) is
that much of the rest of academia is almost as bad as PA --
little or none of it requires its students to cope with
reality. They just 'learn' what is in the textbooks and churn
it out in the examinations -- or produce theses, the main
requirements of which are that they be politically correct and
use long words.

> What you are claiming is that our hominid ancestors actually
> were "..the ultimate in 7-stone weaklings." that you try to
> paint Nina Jablonski as believing. Jablonski does not
> believe that and I defy you to point to any passage where
> such a ridiculous assertion has been printed. While we do
> not have fangs and long claws, we are and have long been way
> more than our competitors could handle.

Except that you can't say how -- nor even indicate
possibilities. In fact, what the underlying Political
Correctness requires you to suggest is that BEFORE THE FALL,
all animals were nice to each other, and that no species had
any need for any kind of defence -- let alone any kind of (God
forbid) aggressive behaviour.

Paul.