Vanity can be a Good Thing

[Pete]

Vanity can be a Good Thing

I stumbled onto this forum about a week ago looking for something on nutrition. I’ve been struck by the number of stories where the undercurrent is subtle justification of not looking good and settling for something less. To be sure, there are medical and other reasons people are overweight, but for the most part, it’s giving up on yourself that does it. I did it. The standards you set for yourself will end up defining you as a person, whether you like it or not.

I was fortunate in that as a kid and an adult, I was never overweight until about 7 years ago. I was an aggressive, outgoing professional and relatively tall at 6’0”. But corporate life, bad eating habits, drinking and giving up smoking caused me to gain at least 40 lbs. It was only recently that I began to understand how difficult it is for people when they are pre-judged by their appearance. I had worked with many of my colleagues for years, but even they had forgotten what I looked like when I first met them. Newer people who worked for me never knew me as teenager, a younger person or a competitive tennis player; it was hard for people to believe I ever did play tennis. They began to form an image of me that was largely inaccurate.

One day, prior to going on my diet, I caught myself making some derogatory comments about my weight in front of some people after being kidded - a sort of comedic fallback just like certain kids used to do when they were picked on in school. I realized for the first time in my life how a lot of people cope with being ostracized. It was a terrible realization that I had lost my self-esteem - and I had readily accepted that in front of others.

With the help of my wife and the prodding from my kids, I went to the Dr. Bernstein clinic and got into the program. It’s been three months and I’ve lost about 56 lbs. Everyone comments on how good I look and I get a lot more attention from women. I haven’t really changed – I’m still the same person. Unfortunately, people don’t always see that, particularly people who don’t know you. Its really vain on their part. I can’t help but like the way I look and when I was going through this program and had cravings, I kept imagining what I looked like when I was younger. That did the trick.

Don’t use the excuse that the images and standards that are set by society are too difficult to obtain. Picture yourself at 20 lbs or even 50 lbs lighter. It will keep your hand in your pocket next time you reach for something you shouldn’t. Develop some vanity – it goes a long way.

[nOcaRbgurL]

Hello Pete,
Such wise words that are very encouraging and taken straight to my heart. After falling off the program on the first day many times, I've vowed to get back on and stay on. Though it's only my first day and I havn't cheated one bit, that really is a remarkable thing for me. I'm the type of person who looks for overnight success and I have to realize that it doesn't happen that way. Your words will be etched in my head and whenever i get a craving or about to slip, i'll think about how good i'm going to look in the future and that's better than any food out there!!! Keep it coming everyone!!

[Pete]

nOcaRbgurL ,

I'm glad to see you're inspired. Try and look at this way. Take it one day at a time. If you stick to what you're supposed to do, tomorrow you'll be a little bit thinner. It works, it always works. Don't follow the scale too much, but just do what you're supposed to do, knowing tomorrow you're going to look better. And there's always sugar free jello!

[Andy Davies]

Pete, I too was impressed by your wisdom and rhetoric. Also by the amount of weight you have lost. Congratulations! I wondered whether you were referring to (among other things) a thread I started up called "In the eyes of others", which dealt with some of the issues you raise. It sounds as if you have something new to contribute to it, so if you click on this link, it will take you there:

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26316

Jane, if you want to stick to a new way of eating you are finding difficult to maintain, why not start up a journal, if you have not already done so. This will help to keep you focused and on track. It will also enable checks and any necessary tweaks to be made. Glad you found Pete's words inspiring - there was some good sense there. Incidentally, you would need to start your journal under the letter "N" as they are filed alphabetically under the first letter of each user name.

Good luck to you both,

Andy

[Karen]

Develop some vanity – it goes a long way.

Hmm. Tried that and it didn't quite seem to work. But, learning how to be humble and grateful has worked wonders.

Don’t use the excuse that the images and standards that are set by society are too difficult to obtain. Picture yourself at 20 lbs or even 50 lbs lighter.

Have you ever had any contact with anorexics or bullemics? They picture themselves as being much lighter and work towards that goal. It's their choice to behave in this way, but it's still heartbreaking to see happen.

Karen

[Pete]

Karen,

Come on, you know the reference to bullemics is out of context. I'm beginning to realize that using a pun like vanity is not going to go over well here.

[Karen]

Come on, you know the reference to bullemics is out of context.

Outside of here yes, but in the context of this forum, no. There are people here who have been and are bullemic as a way of life. How did they get this way?

You seem to have found the right way of life and that is a great accomplishment. I would like to believe it's what everyone here is trying to achieve.

Karen

[Pete]

Karen,

And the right way of life is the key. I could have easily replaced "Vanity" with Health and maybe I should have. But I hope readers understand the point. If someone's version of looking better is being thinner (within limits of course), it can have healthy benefits - which is the real end game.

[susanna]

Pete,

Your words were quite encouraging and visualizing yourself thinner can be good a motivator. I sometimes look at my picture from 3-5 years ago (okay someitmes older) and I realize I wasn't always fat (and ugly). I've decided to put one of those pictures on my fridge so the next time I go and grab a snack that is a nono I'll think twice.

It's weird that even though I've gained 30-50 lbs over the past year, I don't see that big person everyone else sees. Maybe that's why people tend to gain the weight and never quite lose it. 'Cause we don't realize how much we've changed physically.

Thanks for your story.

[razzle]

I would discourage people from vanity, especially women, for we have been told all our lives that we are only worth a plugged nickle insofar as we match some impossible (not "difficult to attain"--impossible!) "beauty" goal.

I think that for women especially, I'd suggest (if they wanted my advice) working with "Fat acceptance" or other therapeutic sanity-enhancing techniques in addition to losing excess fat.

Then, learn to judge others not by how fat they are/how tall/their race/how "fashionable" clothes or haircuts they can afford, but by the content of their character. Be blind to everything but true substance in others.

Focus on what your body can do, not on how it looks.

Accept that some fat on the thighs and buttocks is healthy and normal for a woman, not a sign of weakness or moral decay.

Embrace your stretchmarks and sagging breasts as signs of mature womanhood, of blessed signs of your bringing new life into this world.
Surround yourself with people who also are accepting of many types of people, who look for character rather than looks.

Cut the time you spend in front of a mirror in half every six months. Take that saved time and use it to paint, garden, create, volunteer with people in need, or meditate/pray however that is most meaningful to you. And laugh, laugh, laugh--one of the best ways to spend time in life!

This path leads, in my experience, to a richer life of mind and spirit, a more interesting group of friends, and the possible end to the fixation on external details and self-hatred that plagues well over half the women on this board and elsewhere, whether they manifest that self-hatred through vomiting, taking dangerous diet pills, or not.

And then, you'll be well situated for reaching ages 40, 50, 60, and beyond, when very few people will give you credit for outward "beauty." You'll have something inside you that no one can take away with a insult or slight.

By all means, don't give up on your Self. But Self is much much more than externals. Joyously discover all the myriad facets of yourself. Live fully now, at 15 or 50 or 150 pounds overweight, too! You're a one-time gift in a vast universe. Know that and rejoice in it.

[Pete]

I must admit, I've never spent this much time on a computer in a forum like this.

You know Razzle, I've posted a few strong sentiments in this forum and the feedback seems like - well, a little bit of self defence is the best way I can put it. Its everywhere. I'm not out to criticize anyone. That's not it. But why do you say "I would discourage people from vanity?" That's not really the subject of my post, that's not it at all.

Its about the continued rationalization that seems to me to be the cause of most people's problems. Why should people work on "Fat Acceptance"? Would you say that to an alcoholic? A drug user?

I agree with you whole heartedly that you have to set realistic goals, but as soon as you set the standard too low, as soon as you start to rationalize appearance by "the impossible beauty goal" I think you lose out and your not facing the problem head on. Its tough, very tough. I've been there. A lot of people in North America are overweight - they don't all have medical problems. I still am a little overweight. I may never get to where the charts tell me I should be. But I think its worth the try, I think its very good to try and "look good" - because its really about being healthy. If vanity does it, so be it. Its the end game, the end game.

[razzle]

yes, I would say to a drug user to accept themselves and love themselves for the person they are inside, to not beat themselves up solely but educate themselves about the nature of their metabolic disorder. We can only grow as human beings from a point of self-love, never from a point of self-hatred. Drunks who get dry starting with self-hatred are never recovering alcoholics; they are only dry drunks.

Am I defensive? I read through my post and see mostly love and caring for any new person arriving here, not anger. Perhaps I am defensive though. Ten years of anorexia (talk about "self control!") , rebound weight gain eating only 1200 calories a day, and then later understanding the nature of obesity and eating disorders has made me both more rigid in some ways (we must work towards self-acceptance and acceptance of the variations in body types of others) and less rigid in others (knowing that the nature of obesity is not behavioral for most people but metabolic and knowing that each individual's experience and background is going to be different).

You might want to read this: Adiposity 101 (http://www.omen.com/adipos.html) to self-educate a bit about situations other than your own. I see from your posts that you're missing a lot of facts--which is not shameful or anything, and can be remedied. Rarely do women end up overfat (a definition that is more cultural than carved in stone and objective) because of overeating, though that is more common for men and may be how you got overfat. European longitudinal studies show that the lowest rates of morbidity and mortality are in women from 30-40% body fat, so "thin" isn't clearly the healthiest state. Weight loss from all sources (including 'healthy diets") always results in increased mortality rates and decreased life expectancyy. What about neuropetptide Y research, the role of lipoprotein lipase, the metabolic response to weight loss? And so on. There's a lot to learn about obesity as both a physical and social phenomenon, and much that reseachers don't yet know a thing about. Most family practice MD's are woefully ignorant about metabolism and obesity, too, much less your typical morning talk show host, who informs the typical person of all his 'facts'.

Trust this claim: obesity is such an unpleasant social situation that no one would choose it voluntarily or avoid it if a simple act of will for six months were all it took to remedy it. If weight were easy to keep off, 99.8% of women would not regain their lost weight within 7 years of taking it off.

And controlling metabolic obesity has little to do with looking in the mirror and admitting we're bad or weak. Most of the women here work, raise kids, keep a house with precious little help, may have worked their way through school, are upstanding members of both their real life and on-line communities. They are not weak. They are not bad. And beating themselves up further will help them not one little bit. Self-hatred has never been shown to speed weight loss. But it surely can sap all the joy from a life.

[Pete]

You see Razzel; I don't think it’s about looking in the mirror and admitting your bad or weak either. And yes, metabolic obesity is a problem and I'm sure there are other medical conditions that contribute to being overweight. I'm not questioning that or attacking that. My point is different.

No, I haven't read too much on obesity. I've listened to my doctor, read the Health Canada guidelines on nutrition as he suggested, went to a specialist and read a few US studies that suggest that 61% of US adults are overweight or obese and 13% of children are. I'm sure there are similar trends in Canada. Now, unless there's something in the ecosystem we don't know about, 61% of the US population can't all be subject to some medical problem. If women don’t end up overfat from overeating as you suggest, then maybe it’s from underexcercising. We can play on the words all day, but damn it all, its just about trying to be healthier and honest with ourselves. That's my only point. No offence meant, no attack on anyone but the rationalization that its "okay", because I work, I'm good, I like myself today - that’s the killer in my view. Heck, I used those kind of rationalizations.

Well, I think I've overdone it. I certainly didn't intend my original post to be antagonistic. I think I'll call it quits. My apologies if I have inadvertently offended anyone, that was not my intention.

[Karen]

If women don’t end up overfat from overeating as you suggest, then maybe it’s from underexcercising. We can play on the words all day, but damn it all, its just about trying to be healthier and honest with ourselves.

I agree with the last part of your statement.

But Pete, this is a Low-Carb support group. We recommend to anyone who comes here to pick a plan and read the book that goes along with it, and I'm recommending that to you too, even if you don't intend to follow it! Reading Protein Power by Drs. Michael and Mary Eades is a real eye-opener.

Now, unless there's something in the ecosystem we don't know about, 61% of the US population can't all be subject to some medical problem.

It is a medical problem, and a huge one! It's called insulin resistance! It's slow, insidious, and deadly. It is the root of obesity, diabetes and heart disease. It's caused by a diet heavy in carbohydrates.

Along with it comes carb addiction, which is an addiction that few people recognize. Everyone thinks they're doing the right thing because of the way that low-fat and the Food Pyramid have been touted as the second coming. What it has done is given people licence to eat carbs, because, well hey, they're not fat! For all the people on this forum, that obviously hasn't worked.

It's dangerous to keep on messing with your body and looking at this as a "diet" that you can hop on and off of. You can gain weight on a low-fat diet. You can put yourself into "starvation mode" by not eating enough calories. With low-carbing, very simplistically, it's fat in = fat off and less carbs = fat off.

Low-carb, done properly teaches you good eating habits for the rest of your life without starving or mucking up your metabolism. Low-carbing is the light at the end of the tunnel for a lot of people. Hopefully they will learn more about themselves on the path to health and sanity as part of the process.

Karen

[Pete]

The diet I was on through Dr. Bernstein and with the help of my own doctor is not too different from what your describing. It was a low carb diet and I'm still very careful regarding sugars and carbs. It was also a low fat diet if I can call it that, but never has it been advocated to me that you can just eat as many carbs as you like because its not fat.

[Natrushka]

Originally posted by Pete
The diet I was on through Dr. Bernstein and with the help of my own doctor is not too different from what your describing.

Pete, I have been following the discussion (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24419) that's been ongoing in the Plan Comparison SubForum and I beg to differ. What Karen described is a way of eating for life. One that heals and nurtures. There are no weekly 100$ fees or chastisement for falling out of ketosis. Fat loss is a byproduct of healing insulin insensitivity - there is no promise of 4 to 5 lbs to be lost a week. It is not a diet.

I would definitely call Dr. B's diet a 'diet' and 'a low fat diet' - "his theory is that by only eating roughly 900 calories a day, and by limiting your fat and carbs within those calories, your body is forced to burn the fat on it. " 900 calories isnt something a body can sustain - unless it weighs no more than 80 lbs.

Before comparing plans you should take the time to read what you're comparing it too - I am sure a copy of Protein Power is available from your local library.

Nat

[Andy Davies]

Well Pete, you've made quite an impact here in the 24 hours since I replied to this thread before!

If it's any consolation, I did appreciate the irony in the word "vanity", and I do think there was some good material in that post.

What you now need to do is to read some of the books being recommended to you by my learned colleagues. If you have only read government guidelines and official statements, some of your comments are understandable. But please, even if only for the sake of balance, read and discover what researchers have learnt that the government do not tell you about.

And while I was pleased to see you had visited my "In the eyes of others" thread, I have had to set the record straight there as well.

I think in time you will become a very useful and helpful member here... you are certainly capable of making an impact!

Andy

[Pete]

Natrushka,

I certainly don't think the Dr. Bernstein "diet" phase is a maintenance phase or a way of life, certainly the doctors at the clinic don’t and neither does my regular doctor. Who in their right mind could think they can sustain a diet at 900 calories? No one advocated that to me either and I’m certainly not advocating it to anyone else. At first the “diet” is drastic yes, but I do think certain facets of it are very similar to the Protein Power Plan after you’ve reached your desired weight. Being careful about sugar and drinking alcohol, and moderating your intake of starchy foods like bread and potatoes, excercising more, is something I’ve had a discussion about with my regular doctor and the doctors at the Bernstein clinic – they both recommended restricting my carbohydrate intake based on my previous inclination to eat food with high sugar content. I went through the impact and role of insulin in the body for quite some time with them. I have moved onto a way of eating for life that seems quite similar to the Protein Power Plan. You don’t go to the clinic for $100 a week and play cards.

Anyways, as I’ve reiterated previously, I wasn’t trying to make any comment about a low carb “diet” per se. I don’t want to read anymore about how to diet and moderate my intake of carbohydrates. I’ve discussed it with my doctors – I understand the implications. My real point, as has been reinforced by your post and Karen’s is that the “defensive” arguments come up every time I try to get to the heart of the matter, which is being honest with ourselves and doing something about it. Actually, I think these posts are almost comical now. I write about how many Americans are overweight and Karen writes that our North American diet, heavy in carbohydrates, is a “disease”. More double speak. What disease? Eating poorly may cause disease, but it’s a lack of education and yes, (dare I say it) will power that’s contributing to disease. Eating too many french fries is not analogous to leukemia. You talk about a way of life that heals and nurtures and try to imply I’m advocating living on 900 calories. I’m talking about getting off our asses, stop making excuses, exercising more, caring about how we look so we can help ourselves get healthier, and stop wasting time explaining why there are real reasons you can’t trust a weigh scale. Who do we think we’re kidding? I kidded myself for years.

Rather than pick every sentence apart, why not take the discussion into something more positive? That is really, for once and for all, what the post is all about. It’s not about wading into “low-carb” parlance and getting shot at. I don’t want to do that anymore. I never intended to do it. How do you find ways to exercise? How do you deal with the cravings you have, for food you should moderate? How do you motivate yourself? How do you help yourself?

I think caring about how you look and being thinner can help some people get healthy. That’s all, nothing more than that.

[Natrushka]

Originally posted by Pete
I think caring about how you look and being thinner can help some people get healthy. That’s all, nothing more than that.

And I think caring too much about how you look and wanting to be too thin can turn women in to anorexics and bullemics. And I still think that you just do not 'get it' - If it were as easy as going on a calorie restricted diet and exercising more I would never have ended up here. I am not a carb addict. I have more will power than anyone I know. It's 8:a.m. on Sunday morning and I could be snuggling under the covers right now - I'm here printing off my workout so I can go lift weights. I am not lazy and I do not eat too much - nor did I to get FAT. I ate by Health Canada guidelines - I ate low fat, I restricted calories, I worked out twice a day for 45 minutes at moderate aerobic intensity. I got FATTER. I had a great cardio profile and my blood lipids were the envy of anyone - but I was still FAT. In the 6 months that I have been following a LC WOL, where I was encouraged to eat when I was hungry and came to educate myself as to the nature of insulin resistance and the ignorance of most medical professionals, I have lost over 68 lbs, 13% of my BF and gained muscle mass. I can now sleep through the nigth unintereupted. I am stronger. I am healthier - my lipid profile has improved. I eat 1600 - 1900 calories a day.

And I still maintain that you do not 'get it' and it appears you never will. This is a LC support forum. This insn't weight watchers.

Nat

[Pete]

And I think caring too much about how you look and wanting to be too thin can turn women in to anorexics and bullemics.

I think that's judgemental, discriminatory and too far reaching. Driving a car can kill you if you fall asleep at the wheel. What's your point? I can't figure out your point. My point is, thinking about my appearance helped me changed my WOL, I guess you think that's bad.

I know its a LC support forum and not weight watchers. And I think educating ourselves about insulin resistance is very good. I did it too. I admire you for adopting a certain WOL and getting healthier. Now how did you motivate yourself to do that?

[Natrushka]

Originally posted by Pete
I can't figure out your point.


That much is obvious. My POINT is that the focus should not be on 'thin' and getting there by any means possible. The focus should be on 'health' and being comfortable with who you are - not trying to conform to what society has decided you should look like. I am not doing this to be 'thin' or to weigh less. I am doing this to be strong and lean and healthy.

N

[Pete]

I never said thin. You did. How about thinner?

[Natrushka]

You said "thinner". You can be 'thin' and still have all kinds of body fat. Losing 4 - 5 lbs a week will make you thin - it wont make you lean. It most certainly will not make you 'healthy'. Losing muscle mass makes you lighter and proportionally fatter. It lowers your metabolism. Being 'thin' shouldn't be a goal - not at the expense of being healthy.

Nat

[Andy Davies]

Pete, I'd like to make two suggestions: firstly that you start up a journal of your own, under the "P" section of the Bootcamp/Journals sub-forum, and secondly that you read Nat's. Her journal is the most viewed thread on this entire forum, and it is massively popular among members as a source of information and inspiration. You want to know about Nat's motivation, when she was persuing this way of life? All you have to do is visit her journal and read about it.

Andy

[Pete]

I see. So your empirical research tells you “Losing 4 - 5 lbs a week will make you thin - it won’t make you lean.” Maybe true, but you see, your doing it again, your getting defensive. I’m not advocating losing 4 - 5 lbs a week or not being lean. How did that get into the discussion? I guess when I used to grab my stomach with two hands and there was a lot left over some of that could have been muscle. Okay, sure. It didn’t feel like muscle or look like muscle, but I’ll go with you on that. I’m glad I don’t have that much particular muscle any more.

I think you’re really objecting to me using projected imagery of a societal “norm” as you refer to it, as a means to an end – the end being healthy, and maybe my method of weight loss too, which I can understand. But I’m not advocating my specific method to anyone – although I think managing carbs is a very good thing as others have pointed out. You make the point that thinner is not necessarily healthier. I understand that. I’m just talking about what motivated me to get healthier. Being lean and well toned is certainly in my imagery, maybe I expressed it as thinner, (here we go with the choice of words thing again) but I’m with you on this. Your right, it should be healthy. I think I said that about 5 posts ago. But my view of it is; that when you get leaner, healthier, whichever way you express it, if you’re very overweight, you’ll probably lose weight (hopefully fat) and look thinner (leaner) when you accomplish that. I assume that’s why everyone around here lists their weight. And to me, I think I look better leaner, so that helped me. We can rationalize anything. Sure, I could be 290 lbs and have a lot of muscle - but I’m not playing professional football. Okay? Vanity; its a play on words, a pun. Time for a truce.

[Pete]

Andy,

Thanks for the suggestion. I will read Nat's but I don't think I'll do my own.

Gotta go ride my bike.

[Karen]

This forum is bulging with threads, journals and posts that are full of motivation, inspiration, hard facts, basics and great philosophical discussion.

You're right Pete. This is getting comical to the point of being pointless. I'm taking my leave of this thread.

Karen

[Andy Davies]

Pete,

Just a few words of advice, intended for your own benefit. Things that we men write up are taken differently by women, and I am now aware that your words on this forum have been considered confrontational and aggressive by some of my colleagues. Indeed, they have caused offence and distress.

We welcome anybody here to come and talk about low-carb topics, and partake of our teaching and learning, supporting and being supported "family". But we do expect people to conduct themselves in a way which is not offensive to others. It could be that you are not accustomed to interacting with women, or do not realise how your remarks are being received. I guess what I am saying is that if you were a footballer, I'd be holding up a yellow card.

Andy

[Natrushka]

Originally posted by Andy Davies
Things that we men write up are taken differently by women, and I am now aware that your words on this forum have been considered confrontational and aggressive by some of my colleagues. It could be that you are not accustomed to interacting with women, or do not realise how your remarks are being received.


The implication of this statement, Andy, is that it is necessary to 'talk differently' or 'talk down' to us and that we, as women, are unable to handle a confrontational and/or aggressive situation. That only women found this thread offensive is an assumption that we both know is false. Only women responded - 3 of us to be exact. I would prefer the words "grossly unresearched" in place of 'confrontational' and "dismissive" in place of 'aggressive'. You could probably work 'patronizing' in there somewhere as well.

Nat

[Pete]

Actually Andy, I think I agree with Nat on this one. I think you stepped in it there. So is there a double standard here as Nat suggests? What is the double standard?

If you read all my posts, do you think I was purposely being offensive? I wasn’t trying to be. I did write:

“Well, I think I've overdone it. I certainly didn't intend my original post to be antagonistic. I think I'll call it quits. My apologies if I have inadvertently offended anyone, that was not my intention.

What about Nat's posts in response to mine - any aggression there? Do you think all women would be offended with me? By the way, I think five women responded and a few wrote they found it inspiring. What about when Nat wrote:

“And I think caring too much about how you look and wanting to be too thin can turn women in to anorexics and bullemics”.

Hmmm, I’m not sure how all women or men would react to that. I certainly didn’t like that. It smacks of reverse discrimination.

Nat writes:

“Grossly unresearched.”

I WASN’T as I’ve written, I don’t know how many times, writing a term paper on low-carb diets. Nat wants to keep coming back to that. I acknowledge she’s got me beat on the subject – hands down, no contest.

Look, thank you both for responding to my post, I’m sorry if I’ve offended you, I wasn’t trying to do that. I apologize. It did lead to some lively discussion and that was good. I take your points: truce, truce! Stop shooting.

[Pete]

Oh, yah, one more thing Andy. I've been married to my lovely wife a long time, I have a wonderful daughter, and I'm a Senior VP and Director in firm where almost 1/2 of our 5,000 employees in Canada are women.

[ruby]

Heh! Heh!

What a thread! My 2 cents: (and I know you didn't ask for it) ;) :D

I work with many women, actors mostly, where the pressure to be thin is preposterous. Some of them show up in class bone thin, and where there used to be energy and vitality, there is now a sort of anemic tiredness. But hey, their low slung jeans look great, the navel piercings are shining on their tight abs, and they're proud. That's not vanity, that's enslavement.

On the other hand Petie boy, I didn't take much offense to anything you said and found it all amusing. My mother, in her 90's, always said, "Put your nose in the air, and a smile on your face, and your $2.00 Woolworth's dress will look great." She was proud as a peacock, and yes, vain. I'm vain myself. Vain enough to know that what I see now in the mirror ain't what I saw 20 years ago. So, in terms of your visualization stuff, I rather liked what you said, and am in total agreement when it comes to me . But then again, I think I have a fairly healthy maturity about these things.

Perhaps others here may be struggling with deeper and more complex issues, and the defensiveness you sense is just the shock troops guarding the camp: women who've gone around, been around, and know the landscape pretty well. We need them for those who can't do it for themselves. I only wish some of the women I teach could defend themselves so well. Most, sadly, would probably agree with you.

Anyway, to change the subject, try this visualisation: Who's sexier: Marilyn Monroe or Gwyneth Paltrow?

The typical female media role model now looks like a boy. No hips, not even waist definition.

It's a big deal that Camryn Manheim is working. What? SHe's fantastic!

I'm not as sophisticated as Karen, Nat and others who've devoted more thought to this subject. And I can be pretty cavalier and could easily get myself into hot water like you did here. Except for one thing: I'm a woman Petie. It helps. I keep hearing beautiful vibrant young women disatisfied with their bodies. And I'm pretty sure not many of them would debate you. Now how would you feel about that?

There ain't a whole deal of deductive and inductive logic going on here, in my answer, just some ideas I wanted to share with you, so you might have a better lay of the land.

I liked your original post and was going to say "right on! " --- till I read the analysis. At first I thought it was all so humourless, and felt a little sorry for you, still do, because I thought you started off rather earnestly. But then I reconsidered and understood that some people here have thought a lot harder, and a lot deeper about these issues than both me, and you, pal.

SO my advice Pete, is take it on the chin! And no hard feelings okay?

So long guy,

Ruby :wave:

[upncomer]

I love this site because everyone here speaks from the heart. Sometimes I do not agree with them, but that doesn't make what they say wrong.

What gives a lot of people the willpower to go on is by picturing oneself at their desired weight. This in itself does not cause anorexia or bulimia. I know, I was an anorexic when I was 19. It was not because I falsely saw myself as being too fat - it had to do with alchoholic parents.

Before people start slamming each other unnecessarily, please remember that some of us cannot put into words exactly what we are trying to say. I wish to God I was as eloquent as some of you out there, but I'm not.

When reading these posts, I glean what I can to further help my own cause and then discard the rest.

Now, I will get off of my soapbox. Thanks for your post, Pete - you had some good opinions as well as bad - I took what I could - thanks again for sharing your ideas.

[wangeci]

[QUOTE]Don’t use the excuse that the images and standards that are set by society are too difficult to obtain. Picture yourself at 20 lbs or even 50 lbs lighter. It will keep your hand in your pocket next time you reach for something you shouldn’t. Develop some vanity – it goes a long way.[/ QUOTE]

Pete,


This was a very strong and meaningful statement. It really does some a lot of things up. We are all here, because we can and finally are taking control of our weight and no longer blaming society (although their standards are a bit High, I may add.....), but you did sum it all up.

Congrats on your control and your weightloss and your wonderful attitude about it all.

Cindy

[Andy Davies]

OK Pete, as you see, you do have support here. And you are right, Nat has been aggressive as well. I think Ruby and Darla have introduced a positive and very pleasant perspective into this thread, which for me rounds things off here. As you say...truce.

Andy

[Pete]

Anyway, to change the subject, try this visualisation: Who's sexier: Marilyn Monroe or Gwyneth Paltrow?

Now ruby, you don't expect me to tackle that one, do you? Ironic you should mention Camryn Manheim my wife has worked with Camryn in a movie; she says Camyrn’s one of the best.

[ruby]

Hey Pete,
Yes, one of the very best to be sure!

PS. I'm down .5 lbs............!!!

Ruby :)

[RamonaK]

Pete... you stumbled into the lioness's den. Having never been a woman.. three is absolutely no way you can relate to the years of objectification of women... the strive for utter body perfection.. that does not actually exist.. and if it does for some women it is usually at the expense of her sanity or health. I can appreciate what you are saying... we should be proud of who we are and have an inner drive of being the best we can be. I also agree that somewhere along the line.. I gave up.. and do give up periodically... then reaffirm to myself.. I am worth being healthy. and having a body in which I feel comfortable in my own skin.

Thanks for giving us all something to think about...

Ramona

[Pete]

RomonaK,

I appreciate what your saying and I do understand your point. You’ve actually hit the nail on the head. So many readers missed the point. My biggest disappointment in this whole thread is that it reveals the objectification that women feel and how defensive some have become. That’s the irony in the whole thing. What’s troublesome is that many women assume men cannot relate to the problem of living up to an image. But if you re-read my very first post, you will see that I related to it very well. I experienced it first hand.

[pjqueen]

Well i am sort of afraid to respond lol
not really, I did think pete was just pointing out the bennifits of seeing your self ( in a loving way) how you can be not how you should be. Not by some standard set by someone else but by your own.I have changed how I see myself I now. I also know the the way we talk about our selves either to our selves or infront of others does matter. for that matter how we think about our selves, and coming here has been very benificial so many people who are succesful and people who are having trouble and knowing theres a place that you can find help, infomation, support and of course opinions.

[tamarian]

Hi guys, I've been a silent observer here and find this thread very interesting, not to mention very passionate!

Pete, I'm not sure if vanity is the right word to describe what you elaborated on? In any event, it a thought provoking discussion.

There are so many levels to our desire to lose weight.

Motives/Goals:

1. Some of us want to look good, since we love ourselves.

2. Some of us want to lose weight in order to love ourselves.

3. Some of us want to lose weight to have someone else love us

Methods:

1. Some of us are willing to try anything to reach that goal.

2. Some of us follow what "authorities" tell us to do.

3. Some of us research and chose what works for us.

Tracking progress:

1. Some of us track our progress by how much weight we lose through the scale (thinness).

2. Some of us track our progress by how much fat we lose through the tape (leanness).

3. Some of us track our progress by how much better we feel (health).

Of course there are more options, but 3x3x3 of each could show how wide a variety of opinions we'll get on this topic.

In addition, those of us who have lost weight a lot of times and gained it back repeatedly tend to focus on the psychology of weight loss and body image to avoid bad mistakes.

My own choice from my experience so far is that I love myself as I am right now, and I love to get leaner and healthier. And I visualize what I'll be like when I reach goal, and I like it too, and look forward to it.

So I quite agree with you on the visualization part. However, I strongly beleive that DrB is essentially setting a trap for his customers by following a 900 calories plan. It works great for the 3 months, and afterward, your metabolism cannot sustain a maintenance plan easily, and the weight creeps up again and it's time for another crash diet.

I respect your opinion, and his (DrB), but I don't think it's the right approach. Nonetheless, I hope it works for you. At the end of 3 months, you may consider weight training to recover some LBM and ensure a healthy metabolism for maintenance. :thup:

Wa'il

[Pete]

tamarian,

I tend to agree that a person really has to come to grips with what he or she is going to do once he or she gets through the "diet" phase of Dr. Berstein's program. But I think a common sense approach can work and certainly restricting your carbohydrate intake is very important. That's why I think this forum is pretty good. I must say, the Doctor I spoke to at the clinic (and my own doctor) warned me that I would have to permanently change a few things regarding my lifestyle. I thought it was quite sensible advice and I didn't get the same impression other's seem to have from the Bernstein program. I think you can always gain weight back if you revert to the same eating habits that got you there in the first place. Anyway I haven't been to Berstein's since Christmas and so far so good. I wonder how others are doing with this.

Funny you should mention weight training. I have been doing that to get the tone back into certain parts of my body. Now that is slower going. By the way, have you (or anyone else) ever reviewed the Health Canada Body Mass Index Charts? No doubt this will provoke the next round of technical discussion, but I don't think I've ever been in the statistical "norm". I have always been about 10-12 lbs. heavier than I look or feel since I was a teenager. Skeletal structure and muscle content must have a little to do with it. Anyway, I'm not too concerned about that, since I can still see where at least 5-8 lbs. is hiding.

[rustpot]

Pete

Just visited the site and plugged in my numbers. Fascinating.

My problem is now revealed I am UNDERTALL not OVERWEIGHT.


I should be 7 feet tall and have formed a group called HeightWatchers which I think will be very profitable. Each month at the meetings the group will be measurered and then encouraged to sit up straight and think tall. Then we will walk around with books on our heads chanting the Heightwatchers mantra "Every day in every way I am getting taller and taller"

Of course there will be some cheating and stillettos will be banned but the hidden lifts will be difficult to spot. Wa'il has agreed to us having our own section on this site and is checking out rack sponsors and Doreen is investigating the science behind growth hormones.

Karen is working on low carb height recipes but is completely stumped all the ingredients are on the top shelf and she is undertall too.

Before I get too enthusiatic I had better just check that BMI again I might have misunderstood

[agonycat]

:lol: Rustpot you crack me up!

Thanks for the lighthearted approach. :)

[Pete]

Rustspot,

That's funny! Yep, the undertall society. I can just see it now....

[rustpot]

This thread has, through its twists and turns, brought out the underlying truth of body image and the damge that narcissum can do. I am convinced of the link between body image and dieting and how this is exploited by the dieting industry.

But it equally applies to cosmetic surgery, hair loss clinics, fashion etc. etc.

Body image, how we see ourselves, how others see us, is almost at the heart of our daily lives, whether we are being interviewed for a job or buying a new pair of designer trainers.

If it moves on to rule, or even ruin in the case of eating dissorders, then we have entered the realm of psychological dysfunction. Vanity is the nastier flip side of body image and implies a conscious, even morbid, pre-occupation with self image. Powerfull nevertheless.

Wa'il's post above illustrates clearly the many permutations of why someone chooses to remould their body, and what motivates them to continue. Our perceptions of self are rarely at one with how others regard us. We are the ones that look in the shop windows at our own reflection - the man walking the other way is not thinking "doesn't that bum look big in that dress"

Thus my little muse on being undertall, it is all in the eyes of the beholder.

I think it was Kipling who wrote
As a man walked down the road, down the road walked three:
The man you see, the man he is, and the man he would like to be .

[agonycat]

I have avoided posting on this thread do to the "too close to home" feeling it brought.

From the time I got out of high school to the time I hit 31, I allowed others to manipulate what I looked like. As I aged I still maintained 115 pounds at 5'7". I thought I looked too thin, however my over bearing, abusive and deceitful husband at the time kept calling me fat or over weight.

Ten years I bought into it. Ten years I struggled with eating disorders of one that wasn't pleasant. Bulimia. What I didn't throw up, I took laxatives to flush out. Surprised I didn't kill myself trying to maintain that perfect "trophy wife" figure. Turns out after all that struggling and damage I did to my body, the jerk was seeing someone on the side that was twice my size. So yeah this thread brought back some really heart felt moments of how we see ourselves and how others picture us.

Now my only goal is to repair some of the damage I have done by first starving myself and then going the other direction. To find a happy medium somewhere in there that my body forgives me for past wrongs and is satisfied with whatever weight *IT* feels it needs to be at. No more pushing from me.

[Pete]

the man walking the other way is not thinking "doesn't that bum look big in that dress"

The world would be a much better place if this were true, but I'm certainly not convinced it is. As you imply rustspot, the goal should be not to let a preoccupation with self image lead to self destruction. On the other hand, too much rationalization can camouflage reality too. As long as we can find and maintain that balanced perspective - it'll work out.

[tamarian]

One comment regarding BMI (Body Mass Index): This is one of the most inaccurate tool to measure healthy weights. It relies only on your hight and weight. If you are broad shouldered, you need to lose muscles to fit that criteria. If you are small boned, you could be 30% fat, and be declared thin and lean.

If you calculate the BMI for world class atheletes, most of them will be decalred unhealthy and obese (and body builders would fall under morbidly obese).

There is no substitue to focusing on fat to determine how healthy is your weight. Losing muscle to satisfy the numbers based on weight and hight only would make your body sound good to insurance companies and government stats, but it's a false indicator.

Wa'il

[Pete]

Further to tamarian's point, I believe the Health Canada website also cautions readers and was reasonably balanced in its presentation of the Body Mass Index. I'm not sure it's categorically a "false indicator" since there are ranges. I note that there is no differentiation between men and women on the index. By trying a few examples you will find that a 5'6" adult, (male or female) could weigh 155 lbs and be in an acceptable range, subject of course to all the provisos. An update is expected in the fall of 2002. Here's what it contains:

The BMI is a valid measurement of weight in relation to health. It is not recommended for use as the sole measurement of either body composition or level of fitness . Although the BMI is useful for creating guidelines for healthy adults (ages 20 to 65 years), it does not apply to infants, children, adolescents, pregnant or breastfeeding women and adults over 65 years of age.

The Canadian Guidelines identify four zones or ranges of BMI. The risk of developing health problems increases the further weights are from the generally acceptable range.

For more information about the BMI Zones and how to calculate your BMI please refer to the BMI calculator at

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hppb/nutrition/bmi/index.html

Note that the Canadian Guidelines for Healthy Weights were not developed for use with pregnant or lactating women, highly muscular individuals or endurance athletes

[MaryB]

Pete,

I've found your story to be very heartfelt and wellspoken. Congratulations on your achievement and may you continue to maintain a "healthy" weight that satisfies your vainess! LOL! I must admit that I was a bit taken back by your word choice, but must also admit that I have more than my share of it! While not the sole OR the main reason I started LCing, a healthy degree of vainess has certainly been prodding me onward! Visualization has been a proven technique in many areas of life - top athletes use this all the time!

I also hope that in your daily routine, when you come into contact with "large" associates, you remember how it is to wear those shoes. Shame on the collegues that placed your self worth in your image, not your capabilities. Your realization of this flaw in society's view can be beneficial in the future. Good luck!!

mb

[Quest]

In what sense is "vanity" a pun in the original post?

[Dstar96920]

Ok, I refuse to feel guilty because I am doing lc to lose weight and LOOK BETTER. Yes, I admit it, I chose to lc because I would lose weight. I like it when I look good. No, I love it when I look good, and feel more attractive. I know that is vain. So what? To each his own. Good for you Pete! And good for ALL of us for deciding to do something to make us feel and yes, look better!