Food Preparation Plays a Major Role In Development of Type 2 Diabetes

[dina1957]

Food Preparation Plays a Major Role In Development of Type 2 Diabetes

How your food is cooked may be as important to your health as the food itself. Researchers now know more about a new class of toxins that might soon become as important a risk factor for heart disease and metabolic disorders as trans fats.
This class of toxins, called advanced glycation end products (AGEs), are absorbed into the body through the consumption of grilled, fried, or broiled animal products, such as meats and cheeses. AGEs, which are also produced when food products are sterilized and pasteurized, have been linked to inflammation, insulin resistance, diabetes, vascular and kidney disease, and Alzheimer’s disease.

A new study at Mount Sinai School of Medicine reveals that AGE levels are elevated in the blood of healthy people, and even more so in older individuals than in younger people. Of particular interest was the finding that a major determinant of the blood levels of AGEs is the amount of AGEs in the diet, not dietary calories, sugar, or fat.

“AGEs are quite deceptive, since they also give our food desirable tastes and smells,” says Helen Vlassara, MD, senior study author, Director of the Division of Experimental Diabetes and Aging, and Professor of Medicine and Geriatrics at Mount Sinai School of Medicine. “So, consuming high amounts of grilled, broiled, or fried food means consuming significant amounts of AGEs, and AGEs in excess are toxic. People should be given information about their AGE intake and be advised to consider their intake in the same way they would think about their trans fats and salt intake. They should be warned about their AGE levels the way they are about their cholesterol levels or cigarette smoking.”

Inflammation and oxidative stress are more common in older age, so the goal of the study was to assess whether AGEs played a significant role in age-related inflammation and oxidative stress by measuring AGE levels in both young and older individuals. The study involved 172 healthy men and women who were divided into two age groups—those between the ages of 18 and 45 and those between the ages of 60 and 80. Dr. Vlassara and her team also wanted to assess whether AGE levels correlated with dietary intake. To do this, her team recorded the patient’s body weight, body fat, three-day dietary information, and collected blood samples to measure biomarkers of inflammation, such as C-reactive protein (CRP). Blood samples were used to test for two common AGEs, called carboxymethyllysine (CML) and methylglyoxal (MG), which latch on to proteins and fats.

The blood tests showed that AGE levels were 35 percent higher in individuals age 65 and older compared with those younger than age 45. The study also showed that in all of the participants, the higher the consumption of foods rich in AGEs, the higher the blood levels of AGEs, and higher the levels of CRP and other markers of inflammation.

Much to the researchers’ surprise, the study also showed that AGE levels could be very high in young healthy people. In fact, high AGE levels found in some healthy adults in this study were on par with AGE levels observed in diabetic patients in their earlier studies. The fact that healthy adults had levels similar to those seen in diabetic patients may suggest that early and prolonged exposure to these substances in the diet could accelerate the onset of diseases. Dr. Vlassara notes that the availability and consumption of AGE-rich foods is high and correlates with rising rates of diabetes and heart disease.

“Excessive intake of fried, broiled, and grilled foods can overload the body’s natural capacity to remove AGEs,” Dr. Vlassara notes, “so they accumulate in our tissues, and take over the body’s own built-in defenses, pushing them toward a state of inflammation. Over time, this can precipitate disease or early aging.” Once AGEs enter the body, it becomes more difficult to get them out, especially as people age. Older people have a reduced capacity for removing AGEs from the body, the researchers explain, most likely because kidney function slows down as the body ages.

As Dr. Vlassara cautions, “although the accumulation of AGEs pose an immediate and significant health threat to the older adult population, they are also an invisible, lingering danger especially for younger people and this needs to be addressed. AGE levels should be shown on nutrition labels so everyone is aware of them when buying or preparing meals – and our studies explain why.”

A Simple Solution: Steam, Boil, Stew

Despite the ubiquity of AGEs, Dr. Vlassara and her team offer simple, safe, and economic solutions that echo the recommendations given concerning trans fats—watch what you eat. New methods of cooking to reduce AGE intake, particularly steaming, boiling or making stews, can make a difference. “Keeping the heat down and maintaining the water content in food reduces AGE levels,” Dr. Vlassara says. A 50 percent reduction in AGE intake could have a significant and positive impact on overall health and may even help extend one’s lifespan, according to Dr. Vlassara. In other studies, the team has found that cutting AGE intake in half, but maintaining a diet comprised of the same calories and fat, increased the lifespan of animals when compared with animals fed their usual diet.

At the moment, changing one’s approaches to cooking is the only defense against excessive AGE consumption. There is no routine clinical test to inform individuals of their blood or dietary AGE levels nor established treatment to reduce high AGE blood levels. “The concept that food-related AGE intake is harmful is new to the general public,” says Dr. Vlassara, “and scientists are now seeing how AGE intake fits with the current trends of disease epidemics. Hopefully, these wake-up signals, together with other gathering evidence at the cellular and molecular level, will accelerate our efforts to develop effective measures against excessive dietary AGEs. This issue, however, should be dealt with as an important health hazard now, rather than later.”

The study, which was done in collaboration with, and supported by, the National Institute on Aging (NIA), is published in the April issue of the Journal of Gerontology: Medical Sciences.

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This article came from
http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/results.php?storyarticle=4767

Please visit Diabetes In Control for the most current news in Diabetes care.
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[pauleo]

Very interesting - thanks!

[dina1957]

Very interesting - thanks!
Can be one of the answers why diabetes soars: BBQ, fried, broiled, and grilled, and lots of it...

[Gostrydr]

so it's now the way we cook this villianous meat?

Diabetes soars because of grilled meat..yeah I see it the correlation.

Couldn't be from some of the things we shouldn't eat that can CAUSE diabetes like grains,potatoes,pasta,excessive fruit.

So explain how cultures around the world who throw there meat on a pit and broil the crap out of them, don't have this problem??

Such nonsense..

We all know barbequing is hardly ideal,but the cause od diabetes???

[NorthPeace]

We all know barbequing is hardly ideal, but the cause od diabetes???
Whatever makes our pancreas have to work too hard? Those are the culprits. Find that link and you have your villain.

[dina1957]

Whatever makes our pancreas have to work too hard? Those are the culprits. Find that link and you have your villain. I can't agree more, we see pancrease is only in regards of insulin, but we completely ignore that it is a mutitasking organ and also makes digestive enzyme. I have read times and times, that altered proteins are harmfull for our health, and indeed cause diabetes, pancreatic cancer, and burden liver. We need protein for surviving and repair, but quantity, quality, and preparation method play big role.

[Lisa N]

One little tidbit of data that tends to throw a wrench in this theory is that AGEs are also found to be high in vegetarians as was pointed out in another thread (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=332586) (who I can't see as being big on grilling their veggies). :lol:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=11876491&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

CML levels (O: 427.1 +/- 15.0,V: 514.8 +/- 24.6*, LO: 525.7 +/- 29.5**, SV: 492.6 +/- 18.0* ng/ml) were significantly lower in omnivores than in vegetarians.

[dina1957]

One little tidbit of data that tends to throw a wrench in this theory is that AGEs are also found to be high in vegetarians as was pointed out in another thread (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=332586) (who I can't see as being big on grilling their veggies). :lol:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=11876491&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

I believe all vegetables contain protein as well, even in much smaller amounts than meat. It depends what cooking method is used.
However, back in old days, diabetics were adviced to avoid fried, grilled and broiled meat and replace it with steamed, poached, and boiled, at least, when drs believed in "let food be your medicine". ;)
I believe everyone even non-diabetics would elliminate array of problems and improve digestion alone by choosing alternative cooking techniques and minimizing AGEs.

[Lisa N]

I believe all vegetables contain protein as well, even in much smaller amounts than meat.

That may well be, Dina, but if the group that is eating less in the way of protein has higher levels of AGE in their blood than those who eat more meat it's not the meat causing the problem. :idea:

[NorthPeace]

We use A1c, glycated hemoglobin, to monitor our blood sugars, or degree of diabetes over time. So we make our own AGEs. Cutting out AGEs from our diet should help, while we take measures to lower our blood sugars to healthy levels. That in turn will also reduce overall AGEs in our system. So diabetics should avoid cooking styles that promote glycation, so it would seem...

[Lisa N]

So we make our own AGEs

In a manner of speaking. Glycated hemoglobin is formed when glucose attaches to a molecule of hemoglobin, not because of a maillard reaction.

http://www.dlslab.com/dls/page_server/46990ECDAE246067E16E2C3FFA

Glycated hemoglobins are hemoglobin components formed through a two-step non-enzymatic reaction between hemoglobin and blood glucose. The first step consists of the formation of a reversible aldimine form of hemoglobin to glucose linkage. In the second step, the labile aldimine form is converted slowly to the stable and irreversible ketoamine form through an Amadori rearrangement.

The best way to get those AGE's lower in your body, IMO, isn't to avoid the occasional grilled steak, but avoid foods that created glycated hemoglobin; in other words, foods that elevate your blood sugars. :idea:
This is evidenced by the fact that the vegetarians in the linked study above, whose diet is very high in carbohydrate containing foods, had higher levels of AGE in their blood than omnivores who get a lower percentage of their calories from carbohydrates than vegetarians.
Based on that, I'd be willing to bet that if you tested someone who had been low carbing for a period of time (no off plan eating) that you would find they have much lower levels of AGE in their bloodstream than their higher carb counterparts despite a higher meat intake.

[TimesTwo]

I doubt earlier civilizations cooked their food by steaming, boiling, or stewing it. They most likely cooked it over an open flame. I also doubt they had many cases of type 2 diabetes. Why? They were active and didn't eat refined carbs.

Major role? Please.

[dina1957]

Diabetes soars because of grilled meat..yeah I see it the correlation.

Couldn't be from some of the things we shouldn't eat that can CAUSE diabetes like grains,potatoes,pasta,excessive fruit.
we ate it all along before and diabetes was not at epidemic proportions, but it is processed food with los of chemicals that causes major illnesses in this country, including diabetes.

So explain how cultures around the world who throw there meat on a pit and broil the crap out of them, don't have this problem??
The cultures that eat the most meat grilled and chared are known to have higher rates of cancer too. BTW, which culture it is?
AFAIK, many rural cultures use techniques other than cooking on the OPEN FIRE, they dig w hole and put entire animal inside the pit wrapped in leaves or covered with clay, and then put hot coals on the top, dirt, and let it cook on LOW TEMPERATURE for almost 24 hours.
Many cultures cook their meat this way, and some cook on open fire, but not for hours.
if you talk kebobs, it is cooked very fast and never broiled to death, like BBQed meat.
[quote[
We all know barbequing is hardly ideal,but the cause od diabetes???[/QUOTE]
it depends how much of this yu consume daily, and diabetics have already enough of AGEs as is. I just think it is easier for the body to digest food that was steamed and boiled, rather than BBQed and broiled.
if you disagree with the results of the study, contact the original website.

[dina1957]

That may well be, Dina, but if the group that is eating less in the way of protein has higher levels of AGE in their blood than those who eat more meat it's not the meat causing the problem. :idea:
Vegeterians not always eat healthy diet, and many consume junk food as french fries, chips, and other junk, even boca burgers contain bunch of soy protein, so vegeterians are not a great example.
How about comparing meat eaters that eat mostly boiled and steamed food with meat eaters that eat mostly BBQed and broiled, apple to apple so to speak...:idea: I would like to see a study like this.

[dina1957]

Based on that, I'd be willing to bet that if you tested someone who had been low carbing for a period of time (no off plan eating) that you would find they have much lower levels of AGE in their bloodstream than their higher carb counterparts despite a higher meat intake.


Much to the researchers’ surprise, the study also showed that AGE levels could be very high in young healthy people (non-diabetic). In fact, high AGE levels found in some healthy adults in this study were on par with AGE levels observed in diabetic patients in their earlier studies. The fact that healthy adults had levels similar to those seen in diabetic patients may suggest that early and prolonged exposure to these substances in the diet could accelerate the onset of diseases.
Italic is mine, and please, note, young and healthy, so it is the meat that cause high AGE level not the carbs but high level of AGE even without diabetes, causes similar health issues.:idea:

[pauleo]

I think most dietary studies that make a conclusion on meat are flawed, even though the statistical methods may be sound, because they don't make fine enough distinctions about the state of the meat. Here you are talking about cooking method. I would also argue that the distinction of grass-fed cattle versus grain-fed cattle is important for beef (and naturally-fed versus unnaturally-fed for any animal but grain-feeding to ruminants is most suspicious to me).




Vegeterians not always eat healthy diet, and many consume junk food as french fries, chips, and other junk, even boca burgers contain bunch of soy protein, so vegeterians are not a great example.
How about comparing meat eaters that eat mostly boiled and steamed food with meat eaters that eat mostly BBQed and broiled, apple to apple so to speak...:idea: I would like to see a study like this.

[Lisa N]

the study also showed that AGE levels could be very high in young healthy people (non-diabetic). In fact, high AGE levels found in some healthy adults in this study were on par with AGE levels observed in diabetic patients in their earlier studies.

Dina, I'm not sure how you can jump to the conclusion here that 'young healthy adults' with high AGE's were meat eaters since the study does not say. If any conclusion could be jumped to, it would be that the healthy adults they refer to were the vegetarians since those were reported with the higher AGE levels.
Your contention is that it is meat that causes high AGE levels is not supported by this study since those who are not eating meat (particularly meat cooked at high temperatures) had higher levels had higher levels of AGE than those who were, so something else caused the high AGE levels in that situation.

AFAIK, many rural cultures use techniques other than cooking on the OPEN FIRE, they dig w hole and put entire animal inside the pit wrapped in leaves or covered with clay, and then put hot coals on the top, dirt, and let it cook on LOW TEMPERATURE for almost 24 hours.

I've had pit cooked pig and can tell you that the skin of the animal is definitely carmelized (browned) despite the long and slow cooking.
Of course, if you're really determined to avoid AGE from cooking, you could always eat everything raw. ;)

[pauleo]

AFAIK, many rural cultures use techniques other than cooking on the OPEN FIRE, they dig w hole and put entire animal inside the pit wrapped in leaves or covered with clay, and then put hot coals on the top, dirt, and let it cook on LOW TEMPERATURE for almost 24 hours.

By coincidence I just read about traditional australian aborigine people (fifty years ago when some remained) cooking kangaroo - first thrown on top of a fire to singe off the fur, then covered in a cooking pit with the hot ashes of the fire on top to cook. No waiting for 24 hours in this instance though, the author said the kangaroo was eaten very soon afterward, so that although the very outer layer of meat was cooked, it was mainly raw bloody meat.

[Gostrydr]

Ok Dina..

I am now prediabetic. I have hardly ever grilled my meat..I have baked most of it and ate alot of tuna out of the can.

I ate alot of protein powder as a supplement for my weightlifting goals.

I ate clean,clean fricking clean.

In the 80's I followed the advice of Mr. Quack Job, Robert Haas and doubled my carb intake.
Nothing refined..fruit,whole wheat pasta,brown rice,yams,baked potatoes,black eyed peas,grape nuts...and all of my protein source was low fat. Every fricking last bit of it...

Genetics I bet, or maybe becaue I'm not italian or I'm not from Rome.

I can hardly wait.

[dina1957]

Ok Dina..

I am now prediabetic. I have hardly ever grilled my meat..I have baked most of it and ate alot of tuna out of the can.
What makes you think that baking does not create AGEs, unless you cook your steam, boil, or poach all other cooking methods applying heat directly or indirectly will create AGEs, even baking. I do make often fish a pappiloitte ( in parchemtn paper), and same way chicken breas, if you bake, it still will brown. But on a serious side, and honestly, not trying to bea shark here even you not always polite, do you ever considered that your BB years and lots of protein consumed (regradless of cooking method), made you pre-diabetic to begin with, and then you added lots of carbs to the insult? Hey, I went the same route: lots of clean food: chicken, tuna, meat, plus 3 protein shakes between the meal, and kept carbs low (50-60g) to see gianing muscles and weight overall, and jump from pre-diabetic to T2.
See, we did nto grill, broil or bake food back home, my mother had her thinking that fried, grilled, and seared meast is bad for you, so she boiled, poached, and simmer everything. I cooked a bit differently, and when we came to US, we ate lots of beef, broiled and grilled ( stove top grill), not BBQ, but not boiled either. I think in europe when most ppl live in apprtments, outdoor grilling is rare in general, unless it is festival style cooking.

I ate alot of protein powder as a supplement for my weightlifting goals.
Lots of protein even on a clean diet and I bet also low fat diet, so you combined lots of protein with low fat high carb diet, this screams - higher insulin basal and bolus. Same thing I did, but I kept my carbs lower. Who knows what would happen if I continue my diet of fresh produce, still no sugars and junk, and ate less protein especially in form of meat, whey PS, etc.
I believe protein is anabolic, and it does raise insulin, and excessive protein makes us fat as much as too much carbs.

I ate clean,clean fricking clean.
In the 80's I followed the advice of Mr. Quack Job, Robert Haas and doubled my carb intake.
Nothing refined..fruit,whole wheat pasta,brown rice,yams,baked potatoes,black eyed peas,grape nuts...and all of my protein source was low fat. Every fricking last bit of it...
Just as I already mention: you got your pancrease worked up, I can only guess you consumed about 300g carbs daily and about 200 g protein, based on your stats. This is a huge load, and low fat just added to the insult. You think you will be still diabetic if you ate less protein, less carbs ( 100g) and more fat? I doubt it. Why it has to be either all high carbs and no fat, or 0 carbs and 80% fat, why not something in between?
Now, you are prediabetic, and you replace all carbs with fat, considering you eat 0 carbs ( not sure if this can be achieved unless you avoid eggs and hopefully you dropped your protein intake as well.

Genetics I bet, or maybe becaue I'm not italian or I'm not from Rome.
Could be genetics, but I think that eating lots of protein even baked contributed, as well, did you do aerobic or only lifted? I indeed dropped all carido and did weights only, futher making sutuation worse.

I can hardly wait.
here you got it.

[dina1957]

Dina, I'm not sure how you can jump to the conclusion here that 'young healthy adults' with high AGE's were meat eaters since the study does not say. If any conclusion could be jumped to, it would be that the healthy adults they refer to were the vegetarians since those were reported with the higher AGE levels.
Your contention is that it is meat that causes high AGE levels is not supported by this study since those who are not eating meat (particularly meat cooked at high temperatures) had higher levels had higher levels of AGE than those who were, so something else caused the high AGE levels in that situation.



I've had pit cooked pig and can tell you that the skin of the animal is definitely carmelized (browned) despite the long and slow cooking.
Of course, if you're really determined to avoid AGE from cooking, you could always eat everything raw. ;)
Lisa,
I did not content that meat is evil, the article was about COOKING METHODS that promote certain desease, but you will still argue that fried food is as easy to digest as poached or steamed?
I posted the study from the diabetic website, I did not add to the conclusion, neither the study mentioned vegeterians. It was about cooking methods not the meat eating per se: steamed, boiled, and poached meat, fish and poutry are healthy and do not contain AGEs. No need to eat raw BTW, just avoid caramelization and you will avoid AGEs.;)
But of course, there was something else in this situation, it was carbs they ate this meat with, as usual.

[Lisa N]

No need to eat raw BTW, just avoid caramelization and you will avoid AGEs.

Not if your body is glycating hemoglobin because of glucose spikes from the carbs in the diet. ;)
Dina, everyone has some level of AGE in their blood stream; even those with normal blood glucose levels have some level of glycation going on (there are normal levels of glycated hemoglobin on lab values and they aren't zero). The question becomes: when does that become a problem? At what level?
Diabetics have high levels of AGE...to that, I can only say, "well DUH!". :daze: Most diabetics are not all that well controlled despite medications; of course they're going to have higher levels of AGE. Based on that, it shouldn't come as such a shock that a group of people whose diet is naturally carb heavy (vegetarians) would have higher levels of AGE than a group who gets a lower percentage of their calories from carbs (note the trend...lower percentage of calories from carbs, lower AGE..see a pattern here? ;) ).
OTOH, if someone is eating in excess of 100 grams of carb per day, it might be wise to boil all their protein; they're probably getting quite enough AGE power from the rest of their diet.
Me, I'll stick with my 30-40 grams of carb per day and fire up the grill once in a while when the mood strikes for a nice rare steak. :yum:

[shaagu]

There is research showing that carnosine seems to be effective in helping to remove glycated protiens. Also this study shows positive effects of moderate alchohol consumption:

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/96/5/2385

From the little that I had read on glycation, from what I can tell it is indeed from glucose chemically attaching to protiens in the body. And it happens in diabetics and non-diabetics as well, advancing more rapidly in diabetics with poor BS control.
So I'm not sure eating grilled meat is the problem, i think it's the process that happens within the body that's bad...kinda like eating fat won't make you fat or eating cholesterol won't lead to higher cholesterol.

[dina1957]

Not if your body is glycating hemoglobin because of glucose spikes from the carbs in the diet. ;)
Dina, everyone has some level of AGE in their blood stream; even those with normal blood glucose levels have some level of glycation going on (there are normal levels of glycated hemoglobin on lab values and they aren't zero). The question becomes: when does that become a problem? At what level?
Diabetics have high levels of AGE...to that, I can only say, "well DUH!". :daze: Most diabetics are not all that well controlled despite medications; of course they're going to have higher levels of AGE. Based on that, it shouldn't come as such a shock that a group of people whose diet is naturally carb heavy (vegetarians) would have higher levels of AGE than a group who gets a lower percentage of their calories from carbs (note the trend...lower percentage of calories from carbs, lower AGE..see a pattern here? ;) ).
OTOH, if someone is eating in excess of 100 grams of carb per day, it might be wise to boil all their protein; they're probably getting quite enough AGE power from the rest of their diet.
Me, I'll stick with my 30-40 grams of carb per day and fire up the grill once in a while when the mood strikes for a nice rare steak. :yum:
The point was that HEALTHY PPL were compared to DIABETICS, you keep missing it. Healthy means non-diabetics and it also means their H1C is within lab range:p.


Grilled, fried or broiled animal products such as meats and cheeses contain a class of toxins called "advanced glycation end products" (AGEs), which have been linked to inflammation, insulin resistance, diabetes, vascular and kidney disease, and Alzheimer's disease, say a team from the Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York City…
http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/diet-myths-meat-grill-fry-or-broil-it.html

I agree that all diabetics have higher AGEs from higher Bgs alone, especially those who had it out of control for years. AGEs damage is cumillative, regardless to how low your present H1C is.
With better control for those after years of extremely high Bgs, it is prudent to be on a safe side.
I imagine that eating lots of BBQ, broiled, and fried food is much harder on our body than cooking food including protein using alternative techniques.
To each their own, but the eniter point was different: AGEs in otherwise healthy individuals can alone cause ailments.
Would eating lots of meat product containing AGEs make T2 healthier even on a VLC diet and H1C in non-diabetic range?

[dina1957]

So I'm not sure eating grilled meat is the problem, i think it's the process that happens within the body that's bad...kinda like eating fat won't make you fat or eating cholesterol won't lead to higher cholesterol.
but not all protein contains AGEs, only that is linked to Maillard reaction. so they suggest poach, sweam, and boil meat, fish, and poutry.
As for glycasalation of the protein inside the body, it is indeed linked to higher than normal BGs, and can be measured by H1C.
Also, as we get odler, AGEs accumulate in body tissues regardless of diabetes presence.

[Lisa N]

Healthy means non-diabetics and it also means their H1C is within lab range.

And how, may I ask, does this differ from a well-controlled diabetic who probably has a better A1c than most non-diabetics?
You're stuck on AGE = bad, bad, bad just like many people are hung up on cholesterol = bad, bad, bad despite the lack of evidence to support it.
I don't think that's the case since, as I pointed out earlier, everyone has some level of glycation going on in their body and this is considered perfectly normal. Everyone needs a hobby horse to ride, I guess. ;) If it makes you feel healthier to boil or poach all your protein based on the latest scapegoat of the medical world, knock yourself out.

AGEs damage is cumillative

IMO, that's a bunch of malarkey or everyone would die from AGE damage since we all have glycation going on in our bodies our whole lives.

AGEs in otherwise healthy individuals can alone cause ailments.

Again, boloney, IMO. Please support that statement with a study showing otherwise healthy individuals with normal A1C levels showing damage from AGE.

I imagine that eating lots of BBQ, broiled, and fried food is much harder on our body than cooking food including protein using alternative techniques

I agree. You imagine. There is absolutely no science-based evidence to back up the statement that the cooking method has anything whatsoever to do with the ease of digestion (personal anecdotes don't count as science-based evidence, BTW).
I also have to ask where you get this idea that the average low carber is eating lots of grilled, BBQ or broiled protein at every meal? I have something on the grill maybe once a week during the warmer months and maybe once or twice during the entire winter. Deep frying? Once in a great while (defined as less than once a month). More often than not, I use the slow cooker (braising) or saute' in the frying pan.

BTW...if you're really all that afraid of maillard reaction, definitely avoid baked bread; you know, those wonderful, golden brown loaves of sourdough, for example; they're loaded with AGE. ;)

[dina1957]

And how, may I ask, does this differ from a well-controlled diabetic who probably has a better A1c than most non-diabetics?
You're stuck on AGE = bad, bad, bad just like many people are hung up on cholesterol = bad, bad, bad despite the lack of evidence to support it.

you are talking AGes or cholesterole, because there is planty of studies supporting that AGes are bad, and the cholesterole yet has to be proven to be completely harmless too.
I don't think that's the case since, as I pointed out earlier, everyone has some level of glycation going on in their body and this is considered perfectly normal. Everyone needs a hobby horse to ride, I guess. ;) If it makes you feel healthier to boil or poach all your protein based on the latest scapegoat of the medical world, knock yourself out.
You see how to works now, I posted article from diabetic website, and you get al worked up, trying to proof it wrong. We had this discussion few times about AGes, Maillard reaction, etc. I recall someone esle posted that steamed ansd boiled better that BBQed and broiled, but it did nto cause reaction. ;)

IMO, that's a bunch of malarkey or everyone would die from AGE damage since we all have glycation going on in our bodies our whole lives.
then ignore it...


Again, boloney, IMO. Please support that statement with a study showing otherwise healthy individuals with normal A1C levels showing damage from AGE.
Lisa, we are going rounds, I have provided the study.
here is the same thing just another article:

NBC11.com


Study On Risks Of Eating Grilled Meat

POSTED: 6:06 pm PDT April 25, 2007
The study was done in collaboration with and supported by the national institute on aging and is published in the april issue of the journal of gerontology: medical sciences.From Mt. Sinai School of Medicine: The class of toxins in the study, called advanced glycation end products (AGEs), are absorbed into the body through the consumption of grilled, fried, or broiled animal products, such as meats and cheeses. AGEs, which are also produced when food products are sterilized and pasteurized, have been linked to inflammation, insulin resistance, diabetes, vascular and kidney disease, and Alzheimer's disease.
http://www.nbc11.com/health/13131681/detail.html
http://www.ahc.umn.edu/news/releases/grilled101705/home.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0813/is_n6_v16/ai_7827195
and the last one posted on this forum by kebaldwin
http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=330114
I did not see you qulify this post as baloney.;)

I agree. You imagine. There is absolutely no science-based evidence to back up the statement that the cooking method has anything whatsoever to do with the ease of digestion (personal anecdotes don't count as science-based evidence, BTW).
see the links above. :idea:
I also have to ask where you get this idea that the average low carber is eating lots of grilled, BBQ or broiled protein at every meal? I have something on the grill maybe once a week during the warmer months and maybe once or twice during the entire winter. Deep frying? Once in a great while (defined as less than once a month). More often than not, I use the slow cooker (braising) or saute' in the frying pan.
where did i say that you eat too much broiled and fried food? My OP was about effect of exogenous AGes on our health, not was it about how much grilled and BBQ meat eat average low carber or your family eat daily. :rolleyes:
But since LC diet revolves around meat, there are more chances to consume more AGes: burgers, cheese, bacon (no one would eat raw or poached), fried egges, roasts, do I need to continue? But it does not mean that those who followed regular diet don't get too much AGes in their diet either.
So, it is fair to accume that the OP was indeed right, both exogenous (fried, broiled, BBQed, grilled) and endogenous AGEs (high BGs- not sufre though that ppl qualified as healthy would get post-prandial Bgs even after a carby meal), contrinue to ailments mentioned in the OP article.


BTW...if you're really all that afraid of maillard reaction, definitely avoid baked bread; you know, those wonderful, golden brown loaves of sourdough, for example; they're loaded with AGE. ;)
Lisa, what makes you think that I eat loafs of SD bread, LOL. I did not do this even back to my higher carb intake, I am not a bread person, I am more vegetables and fruit junky. I may eat a paper thin slice of skinny SD baguet once a month or so (barely any carbs in it and the crust almost non-existent) when I am in a mood for some good irish or french butter, still the tastiest way to eat butter IMO, this is pretty much it.
But thanks for the reminder anyways, I am very well aware of food containing AGEs and Maillard reaction in general.
But again, it is strange that French who eat SD bread daily, have no problems with it.:p same as Russians did not have problems with home made bread baked in russian wooden oven, which they ate in large quantity for centuries, very strange if you ask me.:D

[Lisa N]

I have provided the study.

Actually, Dina, you provided an article about a study, not the actual study. I also just realized that the article you posted says absolutely nothing about what the people actually ate; only that those with the highest intake of AGE (and there are lots of sources other than grilled meat) had the highest blood levels of AGE. Of course, they jump right into blaming that once a week grilled steak and ignore all the bread, french fries, etc... ;)

Lisa, what makes you think that I eat loafs of SD bread, LOL.

Because you said you did in a previous post. I'm pressed for time at the moment, but will find the link later.

[dina1957]

Because you said you did in a previous post. I'm pressed for time at the moment, but will find the link later.
Did I ever said I eat a loaf of SD, I said: I eat very thinly sliced on ocation, for me ocation is once a month or so. But if you read the studies, SD bread is the least to cause Bgs spike, good SD is not dense, like whole wheat, and has more holes in it than swiss cheese, making it barely any carbs in one thin slice, also since it is SD, the starches partially consumed by yeast, my pro-low carb dr. makes its own SD, so he suggested I try this when I really want to eat some good butter, so it is a treat for me.
Guess whatever you want, if I have really abused starches and carbs in general, my H1C would be in the same range as yours used to be bedfore Dr.B's plan-11.8% I recall. But i never crossed 5.9% since being Dx, and even before my H1C was less than than this, 5.2% 10 years ago, I found my old lab tests. 5.9% is good enough for most sugar eating non-diabetics, IMO.:)

[Lisa N]

Did I ever said I eat a loaf of SD,

Nope, just as most people here aren't eating half a barbecued cow every day, but you do eat sourdough bread and it still contains those evil AGEs so it just should not be eaten at all as there is no apparent safe level of any AGE promoting foods, right? Gotta avoid those AGEs, you know.
Or is it okay to eat AGE containing foods that you just happen to have a preference for? ;)

since LC diet revolves around meat, there are more chances to consume more AGes

Truthfully, I doubt it since maillard reaction foods are far more prevalent in the baked goods, cereals, and fast food industries as well as present in pasteurized items (milk, juice, etc...) consumed by those not on a low carb diet.
If anything, I'd say an average low carber probably consumes far less AGE containing foods than the average person by far or for that matter, even your average person trying to eat a 'healthy' diet AKA high carb, low fat. The study I linked to seems to bear that assertion out since the vegetarians had higher levels of AGE in their bloodstream than those eating a diet containing protein.
BTW...a low carb diet, properly followed, revolves more around fat than it does around meat with adequate protein and plenty of low carb veggies.

[Cajunboy47]

Food preparation:

My general opinion. I learned this from a Chinese Doctor:

For health, our diet should be as natural as natural can be.

Cooking at high temperatures until food is overcooked is not as desirable in effects as slightly undercooked at the same high temperature.

Also, raw vegetables in our diet is important.

While living in China, I learned to eat a variety of several vegetables at one meal, but not consuming more than an ounce of so of any one vegetable. Also the combination of raw and barely cooked seemed to have no impact on my maintaining a good blood sugar level. I enjoyed the combination of hot and cold foods at one meal, it was satisfying.

I believe it is important to follow a "natural foods only" diet, if we're going to consider food preparation at all.......

Cajunboy47

[dina1957]

And how, may I ask, does this differ from a well-controlled diabetic who probably has a better A1c than most non-diabetics?
Just got some interesting info on the subject, looks like FBG and H1C are not the most sensitive test for AGEs presence.
http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/results.php?storyarticle=4784

[Lisa N]

Just got some interesting info on the subject, looks like FBG and H1C are not the most sensitive test for AGEs presence.
http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/results.php?storyarticle=4784

I don't think that anyone in this thread suggested that they were. AGE can be tested for independently of blood glucose values as was done in the study that I linked to.

[Lisa N]

Cooking at high temperatures until food is overcooked is not as desirable in effects as slightly undercooked at the same high temperature.

Cajunboy47

Not to mention that overcooked, tough, dried out meat just isn't good eats. :p
I did a half pork loin on the grill yesterday; spice-rubbed and indirect heat for about 3 hours with soaked applewood added to the coals for flavor. It was medium on the inside and so juicy that it's still juicy even cold the next day.
That's my idea of good eats. :D :yum:
Then again, we maybe grill once a week even during the summer months although I'm not above slapping some ribs on the grill even during the dead of winter when the mood strikes.