THERMOGENIC INFO: Xenadrine, Hydroxycut, Ripped Fuel, Diet Fuel, Metabolife, etc ...

[Luxsit]

Meg,
After thinking about this more, I might back down to 1ml x 2 for last day if 2ml is making you feel too amped. Let me know how it goes. I am not weighing until a week from tomorrow. I've gone to a 3 day full body curcuit and 35 minute post Cardio routine. I hope between Spirojet and new routine to be down about 10 pounds by next weigh in. We will see...

[Meg_S]

lol, yes I see what you mean about the taste. I think it would not be so bad if you just swallowed it, but holding it under the tongue for 120 seconds makes it just take over your mouth, I have to drink right after, and literally shudder while swallowing.

2ml seems to be the limit so far. I really dont mind feeling wired, and love it for working out.. but the way I am today is the limit. I would feel worried if I was any higher.
I'm going to take 2ml again tomorrow, and for the next cycle do 1, 1.5, then 2. Maybe after a few cylcles I'll bring it up to 3.
I will try not to weigh myself until next weekend. Ok, as I was writing that I knew there was no way, so I won't "measure" myself until next weekend, and do pinch and mirror tests.

Keep in touch with your progress!
take care,
Meg

[quietone]

I have tried many things out there trying to find an easy solution to losing weight and it is not worth it. I am in my 40's and anything with ephedrine or high levels of caffeine gave me terrifice chest pains. Yes, the ephedrine stopped my appetite, but after a few days I would have to stop everything. And I tried gugguls. My daughter in her 20's tried it all too, and she had side effects also that weren't worth it. She has now lost weight with calorie restriction.

The best mix for me is this: low carb and weight training. I don't mean looking big and bulky etc. Just toned. I got a couple of tapes of Cory Everson and it is the best investment I ever made. I have seen interviews with her since, and not only does she know her stuff, she is not fanatic about it.

Bottom line: if you don't do this naturally, how do you know you will be able to maintain it?

[Trainerdan]

Thank you for sharing your point of view and experiences. As it has been stated before, thermogenics and all supplements in general are not for everyone.

However, as far as being able to maintain it, we know it is possible from those who have travelled the road before us. It is this reason that I am here (as well as the other members that have experiences in this area)... to help and guide those who are travelling down the same path that I/we had to go down to achieve my/our fitness goals.

Proper supplementation CAN give you the edge/nudge needed to break through your plateau and take you to a new level. There are many members on this baord that are testament to that (see the Success Stories area, there are many there).

Granted, nutrition and exercise are the most important aspects to any successful fat loss program. But, supplements can play a pivitol role too. It's just a very individual decision and one that should be carefully weighed out.

Congratulations on your success! :)

[Luxsit]

Meg,
I get the swallowing shudders too, you have to dring something right after to get rid of that taste.

I also do not recommend supplementation for everyone. As far a maintenance goes, not only does LC become a WOL, but so does exercise. My parents knew nothing when it came to exercise. I am the first generation who learned what to do and how do it. I hope to pass this on to my Daughter so that she does not have to go through 40 years of struggles to finally understand how to fuel and care for her body. For those who do it au-natural my hats off to you. Our bodies are amazing at adaptation. I am spending the week at sea level. I went to work out in the gym today, and could hardley get my heart rate above 120 during curcuit training. Guess I am used to the thin air up in Colorado.

Regards,
Lux :wave:

P.S. This is a bit off topic, but on leaving the gym, I saw they had some ABB Pure Pro in Grape flavor in the Cooler for sale. I asked the guy at the desk if he'd ever tried it, he said no, but take a bottle and give it a try. Well, I tried it, and it's not bad at all. It has 40g Protein, 2g Carbs, a bunch of BCAA, potassium, etc. I could get used to drinking the stufff. They were charging $3.50 per bottle which is a bit steep compared to protein drink. Maybe I can find a cheaper source???

[Meg_S]

It is official. I am an addict. I hate that we have to cycle this stuff because I want it every day. I am grumping around today drinking tea and coffee because I don't have my eca high. <sigh>
I don't need cautions here, I'm easily addicted to anything and I know it. (food, drink, stimulants, sex)
Just a rant..
Meg

[Trainerdan]

Life just isn't as fun when cycling off of stimulants. LOL.

I have been off for the past few months, and I miss the running-off-at-the-mouth sensation that the NYC stack gives me.

Also, cardio isn't nearly as speedy. Not quite as sweaty either, which is a good thing since when I am on EC or NYC, I turn into one big sweat gland.

[Paminpa]

Hi. I have personally tried a whole bunch of the thermogenic weight loss combinations [hydroxicut, xenadrine, lowcarbers miracle, etc. too many to count] and I have never lost any weight with any of them. Maybe my body is weird or something, but, they just don't seem to work their "magic" for me.

[sonikrx]

You are all fooling yourselves if you think that any magic pill will be the answer to your weight problems. I am a pharmacist and I get asked about these "magic" pills and here is my blanket answer. "You can take the pills that contain Ephedra and Caffeine if you want to DIE!!!" Ephedra is a methamphetamine derivitive and a very dangerous drug! It has been linked to may deaths! No pill is ever going to be the answer. All Ephedra is doing is speeding up you metabolism (not to mention your heart) that is not healthy. The caffeine is just a dieretic, so you lose about 5-10 pounds in water weight. So speeding up the heart, and dehydrating yourself is dangerous and you could DIE!

Soni

[PAMMYSUE]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But this coming from someone who wants to be 118 pounds. Try being 258 and see how you would think. I take xenadrine (ephedrine free) and
caffeine free) It may all be psychological but I feel better and my body is starting to shape better. I work out at the gym 4 days a week and taking xenadrine in the mid morning gives me the energy to go work in the gym. Until you weight 200 -250 and have absolutely no energy then you should not throw stones. I myself take the pills for 2months, stop 2 months extra. I have lost 36 pounds on the Atkins diet and lost 45 inches working in the gym. Until I get strong enough and build make my energy level, then I will take xenadrine. No one is taking these pills to be on a suicide trip, everyone needs a little push. You just have to be smart about it.

Good luck to all.

Entitled to my own opinion!!!!!
Pammysue

[John2001]

Ok, I'll throw in a comment or 2 here. I've never heard anybody here reffer to these products as a do all, end all, "magic pill". Sure lot's of folks would dream it was true.

There are a lot of products out there, (Seen on TV) that promise the world. They show you all these men and women in perfect shape, eating pizza and popping a pill, and look what you get. If that was the truth, everybody here would be eating pizza 3 times a day and be as skinny as a rail.

As Trainerdan has said before, these products, used properly, can aid in losing weight. They are not a "magic pill". If they were, none of us would be here, and all these losing weight companies and products would be out of business in a year, seeing how everyone used the products and are now in perfect shape.

Like any drug, product, or food, they have to be used properly. Many of any deaths I've heard reported, linked to thermogenics, are from people who did not follow the instructions. Took way too much, too fast, or consumed drinks / cocktails while on these products.
You don't drink a full bottle of cough medicine so you can get rid of a bad cough in an hour.
We all know there is no "quick fixs" in life, just things that will aid or help us in our quests.

BTW: I don't use any "Thermogenics" but have been reading up on these products for quite sometime now, and will be making a decision on which to use in the near future, as an "aid", to futher along my weight loss. I do not buy in to anything I see on TV as a quick fix, nor will I ever go off my LC WOL with or without, any of the product out there. Proper diet(LC) and exercise is my WOL, for the rest of my life.
Just my 2-cents worth, John

[sonikrx]

I am not throwing stones at anyone, I am a health care professional that knows that these pills do not and will not be a permanent fix to any thing. I hate to see you people throw your money away on drugs what are dangerous or just placebos. I spent 6 years in school to learn how drugs work in the body and most of these are bogus! Eating right and exercise is what is working for you not the pill. I just do not want someone to die of a heart attack, like many already have. Just remember just because the are "natural" and OTC does not make them safe. Arsenic is natural too. As for the energy thing try a Vit-B 50 complex it will do more then the others and is much less expensive.

[PAMMYSUE]

Nicely put John......... :thup:

I believe that "most" people feel the same way, we want to take these pills as an "aid" in weight loss. We dont expect to look like super models in 10 days. When you hit rock bottom and cant stand the way you look, those commericals do convince you that there is a possibility. But my feeling is if you are LC and exercising and using your head about your program. An aid is not going to hurt, like Trainer Dan does say, on for a month or so and then off for a month or so. If you get to the point where your happy with your metabolism and your energy level is up, then dont go back on them. Everyone needs to use there heads and do what is best for themselves.

But like I stated before until you weight 200/250, you will not understand the psychological effect the weight has on you. Work or not work, doesnt matter, if I think it is working that is all the matters.

As John said, do your research. Lots of pros and cons both ways.

I am done ranting now...............

Pammysue :wave:

[Trainerdan]

Sonik,

Thank you for your point of view.

This thread is for showing both sides of the coin of themogenics. And while your statements are a bit off-the-mark, they are welcome nonetheless.

I hate to see you people throw your money away on drugs what are dangerous or just placebos

This thread is here to guide those who have made an eductaed decisiob to use thermogenics to the products that are NOT fakes/placebos. Hence the products I named in the title.

The EC stack is safe if used as directed and in the proper dosage. In fact, it was proven safer and more effective than the diet drug Redux.

If you are going to cast stones and make bold comments about people dying, please back it up with some science/studies ... with references.

All of the info we are putting here showing the advantages of epehdrine and caffeine are backed by science.

And caffeine is a whole lot more than a diuretic. As a pharmacist, you should know that. Caffeine is a trimethylxanthine , and is considered a pharmacological sport ergogenic designed to function like naturally occurring hormones or neurotransmitters.

However, because caffeine may be found naturally in beverages like coffee, it also may be classified as a nutritional sport ergogenic .

Caffeine is a central nervous system stimulant and causes an increase in psychological and physiological arousal from the sympathetic nervous system. As a result of this stimulation, the catecholamine epinephrine is released from the adrenal gland. Epinephrine may improve the inotropicity or contraction strength of the heart and increase the use of fatty acids as a fuel source during aerobic or endurance exercise, thus sparing muscle glycogen. Lastly, caffeine plays a role in the release of calcium from the sarcoplasmic reticulum storage sites in the cell. This may stimulate more powerful muscle contractions for anaerobic or power sports.

Sounds like alot more than just a water-loss pill (diuretic), huh?

[Luxsit]

I suggest we move on in this discussion. I was going to reply the other day but I am glad I did not.

No one here who has studied weight loss to any degree believes that a "Pill" alone is going cause significant weight loss. There is no magic. It's a combination of eating differently and exercise. Supplements can however with some people help them get past stalls in there weight loss efforts. I know, I been one of them. I did not die.

However, throughing ones academic credentials around and making statements of fact without any studies or research to back them up is as irresponsible as well. We respect the right for anyone to make and state an opinion.

I think we have stated many times that these supplements are not for everyone. Everyone's body reacts differently. We always recommend doing the research and proper study on these supplements before taking them.

As to academic credentials in general I had an MD tell me that I should consider stomach bypass surgery and that LC dieting is dangerous. After reading the various complications of this surgical procedure, which include blood clots, infection, and death. I decided that education does not always equal wisdom.

Regards,
Lux

[Shark01]

Originally posted by sonikrx
"You can take the pills that contain Ephedra and Caffeine if you want to DIE!!!"

What a moronic ignorant comment :rolleyes: Countless studies have shown its usefulness in losing weight, without everyone dying. Our healthcare system really is in sad shape :nono:

[mbschlgr]

I have a very very very sluggish metabolism and am considering one of the EC stacks, which one does everyone consider to be the best, and I don't need replies from anyone that is against them I have studied the effects and am still making the choice.

I am considering Ripped Fuel but if there is one that is better I would love to know...

[PAMMYSUE]

I myself I use Xenadrine EFX (ephedrine free). I like it because it doesnt make me jittery and I am noticing that it is helping with my reshaping. But there are several good ones, got to find one that is good for you.

Good Luck.......

Pammysue :wave:

[Meg_S]

I like Spirojet so far. I have to admit, I've never used thermo's properly - meaning at the full dosages or throughout the day as frequently as they say to. It's always been in the morning or before workouts, and for energy slumps or in driving emergencies. (where it's either sleep or take something stronger than coffee)
Anyway, I have been losing size painfully slowly over the last year, despite pretty consistent diet and exercise and over the last um, 2-3 weeks there seems to be a noticable shrinkage going on which is surprising me because my diet and exercise has been less consistent and intense than ever (meaning since the beginning of the year when I started monitoring things)
I'll keep an update on it, but the other thing I like about it is that every other thermo has given me a brain fog. My body would be jittery, and ready to do something but my brain was in a cloud. Now I'm just wired, full of energy, alert and don't seem to have the crashes that I do with coffee or other thermos.

Meg

[mbschlgr]

I went to GNC last night and talked with the guy there, he said if I am trying to build muscle along with weight loss use the Ripped Fuel. He recommended either Hydroxycut or Xenadrine for thermogenic weight loss. He said his wife didn't have any luck with the Hydroxycut but had great luck with Xenadrine, so I opted for the Xenadrine. He said it is great with getting your weight loss a jump start... Jump starts to me work best because when I see weight loss fast in the beginning I can stay with it even if the rest of the loss is a bit slower. He also recommended 4 weeks on and 4 weeks off. I was a bit jittery about an hour ago and do feel a bit "different" today. I should have taken the half dose, but it will pass and this afternoon's dose I will only take the half dose (1 tab as opposed to 2)

Notes: usually by now I am starving (usually due to morning fatigue) and the thought of eating right now turns my stomach.

I am also thirsty, this is good too because consuming enough water has always been a downfall.

I feel like I want to exercise like a maniac right now!!! (very unusual for me I've been winded from walking from the car thru the parking lot to the grocery store I am soooo out of shape)

Meg, you mention lately that you are noticing shrinkage, I assume that is from the Spirojet???

[Meg_S]

I am assuming my shrinking is because of the spirojet.. only because there was none before it. It has a thumbs up from me.. if I continue to lose size I'll know that it's the spriojet, just because I am such a sluggish loser. I've never been this slim, even at 12 years old. I was always tall and big, I think my body has a higher set point for fat and is reluctant to give it up.

Meg

[PAMMYSUE]

How did you hear about Spirojet? Is it a liquid? Is it nasty tasting? Where can you buy it?

I really like the Xenadrine but I am almost out and I really need a jump start myself. I have lost inches but no weight for over a month. Iam in a major stall period.

Pammysue :daze:

[Luxsit]

I was surfing around the net and found Spirojet.

Yes, it's a liquid.

Yes, it's nasty tasting, and your supposed to hold it under your tongue for 90 seconds prior to swallowing. Prepare to wash it down with something.

If you check back a couple post from Meg or I, I think you will find a link or two where you can buy it. Don't pay more than $40 for the small size. Small size should last a month easy.

Regards,
Lux :wave:

P.S. I've been off Spirojet for about a week. I had surgery attempt #2 to remove a Kidney Stone on Tuesday. This time they blasted the little bugger to Kingdom come with a laser. I taking a couple days to recoup before jumping back into my routine.

[mbschlgr]

Anyone heard of this??? I just saw an ad for it and remember seeing it at GNC

[mattieBCIT]

After about a month of heavy work out. (Weight Lifting and Cardio) I started taking Hydro-Lean.

Im at 239 lbs at the moment, and my goal is 195. When i started the workout, i was at 248 lbs a month ago. So i lost about 5 lbs without any help from the supplements.

My question is this.

I am very healthy, dont have any allergies, no high blood pressure, I'm not epileptic, or anything. Now that i come to think of it, i never had any medical problems.

So.... right now im only taking half the recommended dosage, 2 in the morning 30 min before breakfast, and 2 about 30 min before my work out.

(I work out 5-6 times a week, 1-1.5 hours a day ---> 30 min Cardio, rest weight lifting)

And what happens is that i get cold palms, sometimes clammy, my heart beat / min is higher then usual, about 20 beats higher, im also a lot hotter, and cant sleep until about 12 if i take me 2nd dose at around 4pm.



I just want to know if im in any serious risks if i take this for about 5 weeks. And then get off for about a month..and maybe take it again later on.

[Luxsit]

Hi MatteiBCIT,

I would invest the $15 and get Trainnerdans book on Metabolism. It explains cycling of stacks and has recommendations for workout routines. I think I remember recommendation being that you should do 3 weeks on, 1 week off on ECA stacks ( I'm sure Trainnerdan will chime in with the correct answer). I have the same problems with sleeping using a stack. I never take a second dose after about 2pm if I want to get to bed on time.

Regards,
Lux :wave:

[nkd2662]

Hi I am really wondering if one of these products would benefit my weight loss efforts. I have a few questions:

I might have a thyroid problem... I am getting it checked out on Tuesday. I have low blood pressure, low body temp, and an extreme difficulty losing weight. Would an ECA stack be harmful to me in that circumstance?

How useful are the Ephedra free forms of these products?

Would taking just plain old ephedra as a supplement be as effective as taking the ECA stack?

Sorry if these questions have already been answered... I just did not feel like going through a million pages of responses.


Thanks in advance!!


Nora

:wave:

[PAMMYSUE]

To NKD2662,

I had a thyroid problem when I first started my program. After talking to several people and reading Trainer Dans book. I choose to not take any Ephedrine products. I take Xenadrine EFX (ephedrine free). I like it because I dont get chittery or have headaches. Since loosing 36 pounds I no longer have a thyroid problem. But I dont really want to take any ephedrine products, everything I have read, alot of side affects. Plus Xenadrine you buy inexpensively at Walmart - usually around 24.00. I dont know how much actual weight I have lost taking the product. I think it helps with the shaping of the body.

Just my opinion. Good luck! Ask any questions, you will usually get all your answers.

Pammysue

[amyelbr]

If I consume about 150 carbs a day and burn off 100 of those carbs or more. Will I be able to still lose weight??? And what diet pill REALLY works?

amy :wave:

[Luxsit]

Amyelbr,
The problem is that if you consume over 30 so grams of carbs per day you take your body out of ketosis regardless of how many calories you burn exercising. The goal of an LC plan is to get your body into and stay in Ketosis, where your body burns it's own fat for energy. This is not to say that a calorie reduced diet and/or exercise won't help you loose weight, it's just that many of us here have fought the yo-yo diet battle for many years. We have come to believe that fat in a persons diet is beneficial to our health. The key is getting a good balance of fats. Our systems don't handle the highly processed carbohydrates foods that food industry pushes at us daily. Our bodies finely regulate the levels of sugar in our blood. I encourage you to do some studies on the bodies regulation of blood sugar. It helped me to understand how consuming relatively moderate amounts of carbohydrates with fats actually causes the body to store excess sugar and fats in the body as body fat.

As far as a diet pill, this thread discusses supplements that increase the bodies metabolism and have helped some people overcome diet stalls or help speed weight loss rates if used properly. These supplements may not work for everyone. This is why I encourage anyone considering taking supplements to do the research first before diving in.

There are a number of diet pills out there both over the counter and by prescription. Personally I have taken Zenical, I did not like it, it gave me gas and weird smelling bowel movements. I can't say it really helped me, there are those who had sucess using Zenical to loose weight, the problem is that it does not help you make better food choices because eventually you have to stop taking it. Another prescription pill is Meridia, I call it the Prozac of diet pills. I don't like anything that messes with my mental or emotional state so I've never tried it.

Bottom line is that I don't think there is any magic diet pill that allows you to drop weight without corresponding diet and exercise components. Supplements are aids, they do not replace time at the gym or learning how to correctly fuel your body for your particular metabolism.

Well, my 2 cents

Regards,
Lux :wave:

[mbschlgr]

learning how to correctly fuel your body for your particular metabolism

Lux, I sure agree with you there!!! The less I eat the more I gain... I am finding out the hard way the I personally have to eat approximately every 3 hours making that around 6 times a day of protein and green leafy vegetables and plenty of water. My energy levels drop and I have a hard time doing the exercise part along with even normal housework, so I also use Xenendrine in the half dose to keep me going. Currently it works!

I used a plan from Provida Life Sciences but reduced the carbs even more, I lost a bunch of weight on it FAST... but it is such a strict way of eating (portion control with specific combinations at specific times) I fell off the wagon again.

Currently I am back to general lCing and with moderate exercise to get myself back into the swing of things for a few weeks. I am waiting for my Winsor Pilates to arrive and will then use that.

One thing I learned for sure is that there are soooo many hidden carbs out there that you really do have to stick with just the basics or you could get yourself into trouble with adding more and more carbs and not even knowing it.

[PAMMYSUE]

Everyone makes some great points !!!!!!! :bhug:

I have been stalled for so long, and the point you made mbschlgr is something I will have to look into. I have a bad habit of skipping meals, exspecially breakfast. So last Sunday I went back to induction. I am trying to keep carbs to around 20. My schedule is so crazy that I dont have time in the morning to eat alot of breakfast. So I started stopping at McDonalds and getting a sausage/egg mcmuffin. I then loose the muffin and only eat the sausage and egg. But the thing about eating every 3 hours makes sense. I think I am hurting myself by skipping meals. :confused: I got to try something, I am within 3 inches of going to the next size down pants. I cant stand it. I joined a gym 2 weeks ago, I am not sure what else I can do.... :rolleyes:

Let us know about the pilates, I have heard alot about it. I want to try it but I have not flexibility. I had back surgery 2 years ago and still dont have much range of motion.

Well I am so greatful for this thread. It is so nice to have people to bounce ideas off of.

Everyone have a great day :wave:

"Life is to short, enjoy life"

Pammysue

[John2001]

The problem is that if you consume over 30 so grams of carbs per day you take your body out of ketosis regardless of how many calories you burn exercising. The goal of an LC plan is to get your body into and stay in Ketosis, where your body burns it's own fat for energy. This is not to say that a calorie reduced diet and/or exercise won't help you loose weight, it's just that many of us here have fought the yo-yo diet battle for many years.

Just an off question for you. GF had tryed LC many years ago and didn't get the results she wanted on it. (She did say, she didn't think she did it correctly!)
My question is this, would someone still loose weight if they did, per say, low fat, reduced calories and exercise, while on one of these thermogenics? I figure one would loose due to the low cal and low fat, along with moderate exercise due to increasing your motabolic rate. As long as your body can handle carbs, unlike ourselves here.

She has done L-fat, reduced calorie, and exercised in the past, with pretty good results, so I would think, by adding a thermogenic, it would help the process along too.

Kind of a silly question, but wanted to get your view on this as well as anyone elses comments.

Just can't sway her to the LC WOL.
Well....not yet anyway! lol

Thanks, John

[mbschlgr]

So I started stopping at McDonalds and getting a sausage/egg mcmuffin. I then loose the muffin and only eat the sausage and egg

Pammysue, change to the egg mcmuffin! The sausage can have a ton of sugar in it!!! I was eating sausage too and wondered what was up, I couldnt get myself into ketosis, and it turned out sausage was one of the problems!!!!!

I eas the egg mcmuffin sans muffin and that seems to work, I buy 2 of them and eat one, save the other for 3 hours later...

What ECA are you using?? :confused:

[PAMMYSUE]

NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :(

Never thought of that. Is it just the sausage at McDonalds? When I started LCing and I would dinner, not wanting much to eat would fry up some Echrich Smoked Sausage and still do. Do I need to stay away from the sausage, I hope not. :confused:
In the regular egg mcmuffin is the ham ok?

I am currently taking Xenadrine EFX. I do think it is helping in my shaping. I am working 3 days a week at the gym with weights and machines.

This weight is just getting flustrating..............

What about one of the other places for breakfast?

Pammysue

[mbschlgr]

I too had no idea that sausage contained so much sugar. I was never in the habit of reading labels and when I started I had a rude awakening! I love sausage, and have gone back to just plain old bacon (but look at the package first!!) and Canadian Bacon (which is what is on the Egg McMuffin)

The Xenedrine that you take is the efedra free right??

I'd try staying away from the sausage for a couple of weeks and see what happens. Sodium is another thing I never take time to watch either!!

[PAMMYSUE]

I never look for the Sodium either. I am to busy looking for how many carbs are in it. Do you have any idea what a good sodium level is? :confused:

Now for lunch I just went and worked out for one hour and stopped at McDonalds and got a plain grilled chicken with a little bbq sauce on the side. Think that is ok? There are just McDonalds all around me.

Yes I am taking Xenadrine EFX (Ephedrine Free).

Trainer Dan - Iam starting to work out - following your book :D

Its really nice talking to you mbschlgr. Its great to bounce things off one another.

Pammysue :wave:

[mbschlgr]

bbq sauce on the side

Hate to do this to you, but bbq sauce is usually loaded with sugar!!! The only reason I am so keen on things right now is that I had been ignoring those "little" things and my weight had begun to pop right back on up, I was down to 160 at the beginning of the summer and last week was back to 176 :eek:

bbq sauce, sausage, catsup, onions, beer on the weekends "Oh lite beer, that's not bad!!! LOL" well it caught up with me!

I have finally started to get myself back into ketosis with just eliminating the little things above...

The rule of thumb I have heard to follow is if it tastes sweet don't eat and that is usually the truth! :thup:

[PAMMYSUE]

Your just full of good news today!!!!!! lol

But your right I never thought about it.... Like last night I had steak burgers with some ketsup on it. So what can you use instead, any ideas. I have no problem eating chicken and meat etc. But I have to have something on it. According to my carb book the ketsup is only 4 grams per 1 teaspoon, Mustard is 0 grams. Quess I only use mustard. What about spices, like oregano - chili powder??

Off the wall question. If you are LCing, say you eat something with -0- carbs and the sodium is hi, How does that effect you?
Like I stated before, I wasnt watching the Sodium level.

Something else to think of. Now that we are LCing and checking labels after labels. Before when we werent LCIng - I cant imagine how much carbs I was eating. So my theory is. .................If I was possibly consuming 300- 500 grams of carbs a day and now I am trying to stay around 30- 40. Somedays I goof and possibly have 50-60. God, you would think the inches would still be falling off. I myself I have changed my eating habits tremendously.

My other thought: Because I dropped to 50 carbs or so. That is why I lost the 36 pounds. Now my body has to have alot less to loose anymore? I lost the 36 pounds with no exercise. I wonder if I stay around 40-50 grams and exercise they way I have lately that it will work again????

IAM SO CONFUSED :confused:

Thanks for letting me bounce these ideas of you.

Pammysue :wave:

[mbschlgr]

Sodium aids in water retention!!

When I eat chinese, big puffy fingers and feet :eek:

Oregano, chili powder, etc are all great, in fact most spices (except salt) we need salt in our diets but most stuff already has a tone in it and we don't need to add more. Me, I just cant' eat eggs without some salt on them.

I was just re-reading Atkins again last night, it is always good ro keep referring to it. Some people have to keep their carb count lower to lose than others. This is addressed in his book in the OWL section (Ongoing Weight Loss). By adding carbs back into your diet in only 5 grm increments. If you continue to lose, you can add 5 more grms. etc.

Some even have to go back to induction every once in awhile and some have to remain at induction level to lose, that is me! I am very sensitive to carbs and I get very lazy and gain...

water is a huge key too, I drink over 2 quarts a day!!!

[Luxsit]

I don't know if I consider it a thermogenic, but I use a lot of hot sause since being on LC. :)

Regards,
Lux :wave:

[Link_nz]

Originally posted by mbschlgr

bbq sauce, sausage, catsup, onions, beer on the weekends "Oh lite beer, that's not bad!!! LOL" well it caught up with me!

I have finally started to get myself back into ketosis with just eliminating the little things above...



Whats wrong with Sasuage!!!?

I eat it every day!!!

(though i am on a stall) hehe

[PAMMYSUE]

We were talking about the sausage on the egg mcmuffins at McDonalds. I was stopping and getting one in the morning. I have also been stalled for well over a month. I was eating Eckrich smoked sausage when I first started and still lost weight. But I think you have to watch the sugar content of the product.

All I know is this whole thing is getting confusing. All I want to do is loose weight. See how this sounds. I eat two egg mcmuffins this morning (just the eggs). I had hamburger for lunch (no bun) and just a teaspoon of catsup. No other stacks. Now for dinner I will have a skinless chicken breast. I can hope to loose 5 pounds by tomorrow right! Tee hee :D Aint I funny.

Hey Trainer Dan - Question.

When I was 25 I was a body builder (almost ready for competition) but met husband, life fell apart. No I am getting back to the gym. My problem is I have alot of muscle mass. With just getting back into it I find myself using probably more weight then I should. Because using 15 - 20 pounds seems wimpy to me. If I do this I am afraid I am going to build more muscle mass then loose inches. Does that make sense? Reason why I say I am maybe loosing more weight then I should is because I can hardly move this am. I used the leg press - used 45 pounds each side and my legs got sore. It didnt bother me when I was doing it but the next morning it did. Its been awhile - is the theory - less weight more reps or more weight less reps. I thought about alternating every other way. :confused: Any ideas?

Good luck to all!!!!

Everyone go eat sausage........ :D

Pammysue

[mbschlgr]

Originally posted by Link_nz
Whats wrong with Sasuage!!!?

Most (not all) sausage has sugar in it!!! Plus fillers, of which consist of bread, etc. You have to read the labels on sausage unless of couse you make your own and know what goes into it!! We know someone who used to own a store that made sausage, he is also LC now and was the one who filled me in on staying away from it. Breakfast sausage: here are the ingredients of one that I pulled from my freezer:

Meat Ingredients (Pork,Beef) Mechanically Separated Turkey, Water, Textures Soy Protein Concentrate, 2% of BHA, BHT, Citric Acid, Flavorings, Salt, Sugar

Now I don't know what BHA or BHT is but just reading the words sugar and flavorings runs a flag up. Now when I do the hidden carb count based on the package it shows 3.8g in just 2 tiny little sausage links!!!!!!

[Meg_S]

How long of a break do you need from thermos to start them again? I've only been on spirojet for 3-4 weeks, but before that for I don't know how long I was taking lower dosage "lots of other brands of eca" for workouts etc. I just have a strong gut feeling that I should take a break but don't know how long is needed.

Meg

[Trainerdan]

I usually say 12 weeks on, 4 weeks off ... but I know some people who say to stay "off" as long as you were "on".

The 12 weeks on, 4 weeks off works for me. Currently, have been off for 10 weeks already ... in another month of so I will be back "on", as cutting begins again in January.

[mbschlgr]

Originally posted by mbschlgr
Anyone heard of this??? I just saw an ad for it and remember seeing it at GNC

I had asked about this a bit back, is it that no one has heard of it?

[Leonie]

Help...I have been low-carbing for 3 weeks, ans have been in ketosis for all that tims- until i started an ECA, and I have been unable to register a reading since.

If my body is unused to caffeine, could this be throwing me out? Could I still be burning fat WITHOUT being in ketosis?

Help please!

[Leonie]

Help...I have been low-carbing for 3 weeks, and have been in ketosis for all that time- until i started an ECA, and I have been unable to register a reading since.

If my body is unused to caffeine, could this be throwing me out? Could I still be burning fat WITHOUT being in ketosis?

Help please!

[mbschlgr]

From what I've heard, caffine can. I am on an ECA stack (Xenedrine) and am in ketosis but very light ketosis. I am thinking that it could be part of it.

[eatdirt40]

Well, i started taking diet fuel and it says "part of a low fat diet" and i want to stay low carb also. How would i get all my calories? i want to eat a lot of protein for muscles and everything but i cant get all my calories from protein. How can i get atleast 1,000 calories while being low-fat and low carb???

[mbschlgr]

Originally posted by eatdirt40
Well, i started taking diet fuel and it says "part of a low fat diet" and i want to stay low carb also. How would i get all my calories? i want to eat a lot of protein for muscles and everything but i cant get all my calories from protein. How can i get atleast 1,000 calories while being low-fat and low carb???

LC and LF do not really go together...

But, I do recommend www.fitday.com (http://www.fitday.com) You can set your own goals and log your routine and meals...

[eatdirt40]

I seem to be in a tight situation. I dont know what to eat. I am taking diet fuel and i am having trouble eating enough calories. From reading so many low carb plans i am totally against bread and spegghetii and things like that. so i would really appreciate if someone would show me a meal plan for the day fitting enough calories in without bread etc... So i would reallly like an example meal plan for the day. Any help needed.

[krc]

I'm wondering about the products "Fat Solutions AM/PM" they are thermogenic but no ephedrine and I don't think I see any asprin either.

Would you take a second and check out the contents for me:
AM:
Chromium (as chromuim chloride) 150 mcg

Thermogenic and Sugar Control Blend: 1,200 mg
Aloe vera concentrate, green tea leaf extract, guarana seed extract, citrus aurantium extract (immature fruit), licorice root extract, ginger root extract, cinnamon bark, CitriMax <(-)hydroxycitrate extract of Garcinia cambogia fruit>, Gymnema sylvestre leaf extract, vanadium (vanadyl sulfate)

Natural Fruit Concentrates: 250mg
Pineapple, orange, raspberry, strawberry, cherry, blueberry, grape, grapefruit, lemon, lime and papaya

PM:
Manganese (as manganese sulfate) 3mg

chromium (as chromium HVP chelate) 200mcg

Protien Blend (as hydrlyzed collagen) 3,000mg
Typical profile: L-alanine, L-arginine, L-asparticacid, L-cystine, L-glutamic acid, glycine, L-histidine, L-hydroxylysine, L-hydroxyproline, L-isoleucine, L-leucine,L-lysine, L-methionine, Lphenylalanine,L-proline, L-serine, L-tyrosine and L-valine

Proprietary Blend: 500 mg
Aloe vera concentrate, conjugated linoleic acid, CitriMax <(-)hydroxycitrate extract of Garcinia cambogia>, green tea leaf extract (98% total polyphenols, 70% catechins) and vanadium

sorry that was so long but I hoped you would understand what all that means.

thank you
Kim

[mbschlgr]

Originally posted by eatdirt40
I seem to be in a tight situation. I dont know what to eat. I am taking diet fuel and i am having trouble eating enough calories. From reading so many low carb plans i am totally against bread and spegghetii and things like that. so i would really appreciate if someone would show me a meal plan for the day fitting enough calories in without bread etc... So i would reallly like an example meal plan for the day. Any help needed.

The best way to come up with some ideas is to browse the journals! This is where we all post our meal plans and believe you me, I've gotten some terrific ideas there...

Feel free to take a look at my journal (just click on the journal icon) then while there, click on some of the others that visit to see what they eat.

[Tarrant]

Hey dan you're very knowledgable about E/C/A stacks and I've been taken Xenadrine for awhile and have been wondering about this. When I take it it's like i can focus or concentrate easier. Before I was constantly daydreaming and just wanting to leave and had a hell of a time sitting through classes, but If I take some Xenadrine before I go to school I have no problem at all, i can sit through the whole lecture and pay attention. Which ingredient is having this effect on me, is it the ephedrine?

And I was just looking through your journal and I noticed you took your ECA 3 times a day, which ECA do you take?

[Luxsit]

Tarrant, I'm no expert, but have you ever been tested for Attention Deficit Dissorder? The supplement you are taking may act very much like the drugs they subcribe for ADD. Most are amphetamine based. If you have constant issues with staying on task and focusing you might want to look into this. I have a Daughter with ADD non hyperactive.

Regards,
Lux :wave:

[Tarrant]

Interesting, how do I get tested for ADD?

[Luxsit]

Tarrant, I think you need a referral from your primary care physician to a Psychologist who is trained in testing and identifying ADD. The Psychologist makes the diagnosis and the Physician can prescribe the meds if indicated. The identification process for ADD is not an exact science. It's based upon clinic testing somewhat like IQ tests.

Regards,
Lux :wave:

[Mjsturg1]

My first question would be are the "ephedra-free" versions of Ripped Fuel or Xenadrine also effective???

My second question is if someone were to take just a tyrosine supplement-would that help at all ? I used to take them in the summer because I thought it would help my tan last longer...LOL

[Tarrant]

mjsturg, i tried ephedrine-free xenadrine and it sucked :p doesn't have the same effect at all, at least on me

[SexySue]

Mahuang is one deadly substance. A kid died from taking a stacking drug very recently. Some say that it might of been because he abused them. I feel that anything that messes with the heart rate is not good for you. Caffeine is one of those products that doctors tell you to stay away from. Some people love stacking but you have too ask yourself, at what price? Is your heart any worse for wear? How much of your life span have you shaved off using the product? And just because it works for you now doesnt mean it is not going to hurt you later. Just something to think about.

[Trainerdan]

Tarrant ... When I take EC stacks (I am not right now, but I start again in February/March), I take Xenadrine or Hydroxycut. Now that Hydroxy has revamped it s formuals and included green tea, I think I am gonna start with that in February. In March I plan to swith to a NYC stack. Then the fun starts from there ... ;)

[Trainerdan]

KRC ... It seems that there are alot of great ingredients inthat formula, but noth enough to do anything. For example, the effective dose for CLA per day is 4,000 - 6,000 mg.

See what I mean?

Alot of companies are cashing in on the new supplements that are availbel now, and they put a bunch of them in one "magic" formula. The problem is, there is never enough of any of the ingredients to actually do anything.

[Trainerdan]

EATDIRT ... Look in my journal. There are a few samples of my eating in there. You may have to scroll through a few pages to see some of the different ones, but they are there.

It'll at least give you some ideas.

You can check out Fern2340's also. She isn't as heavy on supplements as I am.

Therms work on LC diets, you don't have to be LF.

[krc]

Ok so I would have to drink half this bottle to have it do anything right? Do you know of an alternative that is ephedrine free? Or (other than stacking) are there some specifics I should add. I already take chromium picolinate. Should I add green tea and in what dose ( I thought it came in capsule form).

As always, your advice is greatly appreciated. :D

KRC

[dsights]

I have been reading about SpiroJet by ADR Pharmacia and I was wondering what kind of result anyone has had with it.

[adnil53]

Posted by Tarrant on Dec-09
Before I was constantly daydreaming and just wanting to leave and had a hell of a time sitting through classes, but If I take some Xenadrine before I go to school I have no problem at all, i can sit through the whole lecture and pay attention. Which ingredient is having this effect on me, is it the ephedrine? I didn’t see anything on this for an answer other than the attention deficit disorder… I did find this to be true on Diet Fuel as well… makes me wonder, really what could be causing this?… I don’t wish to be getting any tests… just curious. Also is it normal to be over hot while taking it? Or is it the w/o’s that cause that heat? It is 70° in my house, but most of the time it feels at least 80°!!!

[adnil53]

Also is it normal to be over hot while taking it? Or is it the w/o’s that cause that heat? It is 70° in my house, but most of the time it feels at least 80°!!!
I read over the thread and found that answer... :D It is most defiantly the Diet Fuel... And this is what I found out also... People use an ECA stack to increase alertness, speed up metabolism, aid weight loss, enhanced athletic performance and increase mental sharpness. So yes it appears to help mental sharpness... so cool... :)

[dsights]

I have started taking xenadrine RFA a couple of weeks ago and haven't had any problems with it, but I have a question concerning the caffiene. I have read that for an ECA stack to be effective there has to be a specific ratio of ECA. I used to be a softdrink junkie, but I now limit myself to one a day ( which I nurse all day long). I was wondering if the added caffiene in the softdrink will botch up the ECA stack?

[Kaela]

I have a question too. I've been reading studies on ECA stack and they all seem to be done with a low fat diet. I also read that the stack makes you pee less. Is this bad for a low carb diet since you have to pee alot to get rid of the ketones? And can the caffeine raise your insulin level? :confused:

[alexis143]

I take Metabolife, which is the same as a ECA stack, and it actually makes you pee a lot because you are very thirsty when you take it. I think it has to do with the fact that you get very warm (thermogenics). I drink about 15 glasses of water a day while taking the pills. Hope that helps!
Alexis :)

[Trainerdan]

ALEXIS & KAELA ... Caffeine is a diuretic, which probably accounts for the extra trips to the bathroom. You are doing the right thing by drinking extra water otherwise you could run the risk of dehydrating yourself.

DSIGHTS ... The extra caffeine may make you feel a little overstimualted if you drink it within 4 hours of taking the Xenadrine. Other than that, you are cool.

[_wilow]

I've been on slenderwiegh a lot over the past 3 or 4 years and it's worked well. Concerned about the ephedra/caffeine mix and effects on my heart (family history of heart problems) so wanted to try an ephedra free product. Ever heard of Takeoff from gnc? It has...
6%synephrine alkaloids (immature fruit) 300 mg
guarana seed extract and green tea leaf extract (200 mgcaffeine) 1000 mg
L-tyrosine, 250 mg
Triple Ginseng Concentrate 250 mg [Panax ginseng root extract (10% ginsenosides,) American ginseng root extract ( 5% ginsenosides) and Siberian ginseng root extract (>8% eleutherosides)]
Adrenal Support Blend [Licorice root extract (13% Glycyrhizin), astragalus root extract (1% 4'-hydroxy-3'methoxyisofflavone) and schizandra berry extract (9% schizandrins)]
Ginkgo biloba leaf extract (24% flavonglycosides, 6% sesquiterpene lactones)

It's greek to me and would appreciate some feedback on the effectiveness and dangerousness. They recommend one a day and an extra one before workouts and to use it 12 weeks on, three off.
Thanks a lot! Lisa

[vbrowne]

Hi, I apologize if my question has been answered. This tread is massive.

I have purchased a product called T2 by Sci-fit. The health food store told me to take 2 in the morning on an empty stomach, I can't, they make me feel sicky, so I take them with my breakfast, then 2 30 mins. prior to workout, which I do, and that's okay. These don't contain any ephedrine. I have been taking them regularly for 2 weeks. I was wondering when I can expect to see results, should I only use them in conjuction with working out, or because they say "supplement" can I continue taking them indefinately. Once these have run out, I am going to switch to Xanadrine - any comments or advice?

Thanks.

Vikki

[ebeth2210]

Okay, I'm confused. Are Hydroxycut and Xenadrine the same thing? If not which would be better for me? I'm not a bodybuilder or anything. I just want something to take the edge off my appetite and especially something to give me the energy to get some exercise. I have always been a low energy person ever since I can remember, but lately I'm dragging real low. Its depressing because I know a little exercise would go a long way. Don't get me wrong, I'm not depressed, just dragging energy wise.

I bought some Hydroxcut awhile back, but the cashier had such terrible things to say about it, that I returned it. She said she took less than the recommended dosage.

Does anybody have any advice on prescription weight loss drugs? And one last thing,if I do have a bad reaction to the Hydroxcut, is it something that will go away after I quit using it?
Theres a whole website dedicated to people who say it ruined their life.

Thanks
Mary

[GYMGIRL]

I've worked in a supplement store for six years & tryed every new supplement that comes out. The best one that is on the market at the moment is Lean System 7. Its Ephedrine free but you have an amazing amount of energy all day & it really kills your appetite. It has an ingrediant in it called Yerba mate. Check out the web site www. leansystem7.com. This stuff is amazing & way better than Ephedrine as you don't get the ups & downs.

[laneybuggy]

I recently bought Xenadrine EFX which is ephedra free & it also has the Yerba-Mate in it.

I don't notice any negative effects, though its only been a week...

[Kaela]

ebeth- if you have a bad reaction to Hydroxycut it will go away.(But I'm not a Doctor) If you mean a bad reaction by nervousness or light-headedness than yes, it will go away. I'm taking Metabolift, I started out slowly so I don't get dizzy or anything. Take the right amount for you which will probably be less than half of what the bottle says.

Trainerdan or Fern or anyone who knows!- I know that EC stack is a thermogenic so I took my temperature while on it. (A few hours after I worked out) and it was 98.7 Is my temp supposed to bbe higher than that? I thought the stacks work by causing your body to heat up so does this mean it's not "working"??

[vbrowne]

I take T2 Thermogenic, I take 2 - 30 mins. prior to my workout, i haven't taken my temp, but I know it's "up there" just by how I feel - more intense workout feeling than without the pills. I'm going to finish these then switch to Xenadrine to try. I'm going into week 3 of the pills, will I start to notice excelerated fat loss soon - I just want to know that i'm not taking these pills for nothing. HOpe someone can answer my question.

Thanks.

[Meg_S]

Hi, I know that not rotating and taking a break from a stack can exhaust your adrenal glands.. Would taking a dose prior to a workout 4-6 days/week, and at no other time do the same thing? Could I continue to take whatever stack I am using (spirojet) .. or should I just get off it for a couple months?

Thanks,
Meg

[PAMMYSUE]

HEY TRAINER DAN:


LET ME RUN SOMETHING BY YOU.


I DID ATKINS FROM APRIL 02 - DEC 02. I HIT A BRICK WALL.
LOST 35 POUNDS BUT NOV AND DEC DID NOT LOOSE OR GAIN ANYTHING. WAS TAKING XENADRINE EFX AT THE TIME. SO I COMPLETE CHANGED EVERYTHING. WENT OFF XENADRINE 1/1/O3, ON 1/6/03 STARTED BFL. DOING THEIR DIET AND SO FAR HAVE LOST 5 INCHCES AND 4 POUNDS. SEEMS TO BE DOING GOOD. NOW TODAY I WENT BACK ON THE XENADRINE. DO YOU THINK I WILL GET STALLED AGAIN. JUST THAT I DONT SEEM TO BE LOOSING MUCH WEIGHT. I FOLLOW THE DIET AS CLOSE AS A CAN. THE ONLY THING I MUST START DOING IS DRINKING A POTEIN DRINK. HAVE TRIED A COUPLE BUT THEY MAKE ME GAG
THE ONLY ONE I HAVE NOT TRIED IS MYOPLEX? HAS ANYONE TRIED IT AND DOES IT TASTE DECENT? ANY SUGGESTIONS ON HOW TO DRINK LET ME KNOW.

ALSO I NEED PROTEIN SNACKS. CAN DO COTTAGE CHEESE. ANY IDEAS.

PAMMYSUE

THANK YOU.

[John2001]

Hi Pammysue,

Can't answer the other questions, maybe Dan can.

Protein shakes: I take Biotest brand, Low Carb Grow. (Vanilla flavor)
Low in carbs, 2-3g and the taste is, what I'd say, great!
(even my GF liked the taste when she tryed it)

Funny you asked about cottage cheese too, last night
I mixed a scoop of the protein shake with the cottage cheese.
Not bad, I just put a little too much powder into the mix! lol
A little dry. Going to have some again tonight, as this morning
I woke up, ready to go, not tired / sleepy. Could have been
just this morning, but the only thing different in my diet was
having the protein powder mixed with cottage cheese last night.
I do the shake in the work week mornings.

Mix in the following:

8-oz's water, 2-eggs, dash of half and half or heavy cream,
and a little flax seed oil.

Blend it up in one of those handheld blenders in a tall
measuring cup / glass.

Not bad at all. I try to make it every morning during the
work week, when I have don't have time for a real breakfast.
Just my 2-cents! lol
Cheers, John

[PAMMYSUE]

THANKS ALOT FOR THE SUGGESTIONS JOHN.



I WILL TRY YOU RECIPE. WHAT I MEANT TO SAY IS I CANT DO COTTAGE CHEESE BY ITSELF. NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT PUTTING IN A PROTEIN DRINK.

ANY OTHER IDEAS LET ME KNOW.

THANKS AGAIN.


PAMMYSUE

[red1cutie]

Hi everyone. I'm new to this site and I have been reading alot of the postings on this board. I want to lose about 65 lbs. I want am torn between doing trying the protein power plan and the body for life eating plan.

I was wondering which one would result in faster weight loss. Also, in order to lose weight faster should I do the body for life training program or should I just do cardio 5 times per week. I also want to get toned. I don't know my body fat.

Also any supplements that would help me get the most out of working out.

Please help. Thanks.

red :)

[Cores]

I've always heard how bad ephedra is for you, but there seem to be many people on these boards who are dedicated to Xenical and supplements such as this. Are they okay to take as long as there are according to teh directions, or are they really just a scam? What about just taking Dexatrim Natural or something like that? Not as effective? Thanks for taking the time to read!

:daizy:
Cores

[vbrowne]

I heard Dexatrim gives you the shakes - like the ephedra based products - check the ingredients - I take Xenadrine EFX - no ephedra 4 times a day (2 in the morning and 2 b4 my workout at lunch time - NO MORE) - I follow directions on all products to a T, not following and thinking they know more is what causes problems (sorry for my soap box there). I'm sure Xenadrine is helping me - I follow atkins and work out, but I'm sure over the years my metabolism has been buggered up due to yo-yo dieting and of course, I'm getting older :mad: - I just wish I could find this product for less $$$ - it's a tad expensive. Hope that helps.


Vikki

[Kaela]

ok, I'm a little worried. My brother and grandma just told me tht they saw a study that where they gave a certain number of people ec stack and some of the people died. I haven't been able to find anything on the onternet about it but that's what they said. Anyone heard anything about it??

[ATP]

I am new to this and I was just reading about the hydroxicut talk going on here. Just to let you know, I went to GNC yesterday and got a bottle of the new formula of Hydroxicut which is Ephedra free. That is the new formula and I was told the old formula is going away...... I don't know what the difference on it's performance is and I don't know if the new formula works because I still have taken one since I forgot it at home, but I will begin taking it tomorrow and I'll let you know if I think it works. I guess I'm a little afraid that it isn't going to work since it's different from that all these people have been taking. If any one out there has taken the new formula let me know if it does work like the old one. If you like the old formula you need ot get it while it's out there because it is going off the market soon. :roll:

[Laura-Lyn]

Well GNC had a sale of their dietary supplement "Cuts". I want to improve my weightloss and it seems to be getting slower each pound I lose. What I want to know is has any body else had any results, negative or positive, with this? And how long till you noticed anything? Can you feel any difference?

Guarana extract 187.5 mg
green tea extract 125 mg
coleus forskohlii extract 62.5 mg
citrus aurantium extract 112 mg
sunflower oil extract 75 mg
guggul extract 50 mg
white willow bark 50 mg
Alpha Lipoic Acid 18.8 mg
cayenne pepper 30 mg
dandelion root 37.5 mg
ginger root 25 mg

[Rhys]

Hi everyone! First I want to say--this is a GREAT forum! I've spent many wonderful hours here, browsing, and there is no better source of information anywhere--thanks to all of you for taking the time to help out!

It's my 2nd day as a LC-er, and I'm excited that this will finally be the answer for me--I'm certain now that I do NOT process carbs well. But since we're in the ECA forum, I'll direct my questions that way...

I purchased Hydroxycut about a week ago. I used one pill once a day (in the morning on an empty stomach) for 2 days. I didn't notice any of the 'jittery' side effects--if anything, I felt noticeably CALMER afterwards. I stopped because for some reason I thought I read/heard that it is most effective at the end of a weight-loss program, to whittle away those last few pounds, rather than at the very beginning of the program. (Sort of like the difference between trying to clear away a mountain, as opposed to an anthill, with a child's sand shovel.) Am I wrong? Should I take it right away?

My body fat is so STUBBORN...although I've never tested my temp in the morning, I've had it tested several times during the day during check-ups, etc, and it's never over 97 degrees.

Thank you for any information!

--Rhys

[floridagal]

I started taking Xenadrine this week (and love it!) but had a question regarding other supplements. Before Xen I was taking CLA, L-carnitine and Cromium. Can I continue taking these along with Xen???

[Promenea]

Whew, just read the whole thread. It seems like ephedra is on the way out because it isn't specific enough for beta 3 adrenergic receptors and for some people can cause heart problems, probably those that have a genetic predisposition to problems or to those that abuse the drug.

Anyway, I've been reading about the effects of octopamine and it seems to be pretty specific for beta 3 adrenergic receptors and lipolysis induction. Are there any thermogenics that have their base as octopamine? I know bitter orange has it but I don't know if it is an effective dose.

[BUM3]

Any input on the new product I keep seeing on TV called Zantrex-3?

I called GNC and was given an internet address to do reading on it: Zoller Laboratories (http://www.zollerlaboratories.com)

I'm currently using Xenadrine, and have had some decent results in the last 30 days. Since my supply is running thin and I need to pick something else up, does it make sence to try this one?

Mario

[doreen T]

hi Mario,

I'm hardly an expert on thermogenics ;) .. but I did a bit of searching about Zantrex-3. The product claims to be ephedra and ma huang free, but it's really hard to find out just exactly what's in it. Here's their blurb:... the active compound in Zantrex™-3 is not only the new weight loss winner, the ultimate appetite suppressant, but with the addition of its incredible, high energy, proprietary xanthine-based stimulant, Zantrex-3 gives you all the energy you want, whenever you want… without ephedra, ma huang or any ephedrine derivative ..

http://www.zollerlaboratories.com/zantrex_pg2.aspIt also looks as though Zantrex-3 is the only product made by Zoller Laboratories ;) There is a 1-800 # listed on the page, but likely that's just for taking orders, not for dispensing information. ???

So, there's no idea what is the "appetite suppressant" in this stuff, and xanthine usually means caffeine.

I did a Google search, and there is a similar product, with similar-sounding advertising and promises of rapid weight loss, with similar-sounding ingredients .. called Xantrex (:rolleyes: ) .. you can read about it here (http://www.bodyandhealthessentials.com/non_ephedra_super_diet_pills_women.htm). It's recommended for short term use only, definitely cautions against using for extended periods.

hth,

Doreen

[BUM3]

Thank you for the heads up Doreen. Looks like the special thing in their product is what they call their new “super stimulant” (containing a highly absorbable, proprietary xanthine mixture) whatever that means in english :rolleyes:

What I'd be interested in knowing is how this will work with my intense exercise program and new eating schedule... any thoughts?

Mario

[Luxsit]

I just wanted to chime in with my 2 cents. I think that the current media hype on Ephedra is just that - hype. I think also the Medical professions attack on Hebral supplements is typical of their treatment of anything that does not come from the Pharmaceutical Industry. It seems common sense that you don't take Ephedra then go outside in the sun, and do an intense, long duration workout, without monitoring your heartrate, body temperature and water intake. Now if you can't take Ephedra because it make you jittery then don't. There are lots of good alternatives available. I still feel Ephedra is safe if used with the appropriate precautions.

Regards,
Lux :exclm:

[Meg_S]

Agreed, Luxit. I was talking with a guy yesterday, and he said something that I had never heard of before.. which was that ephedra supresses the body's ability to regulate temperature.... thus the precautions about taking it, then going out into intense heat and exercising. Obviously this is just a "he said" kind of thing, but I'd like to find out more.

Meg

[Luxsit]

Meg, not heard specifically about impact on regulating body temperature. I have heard it reduces the awareness of fatigue, that it reduces swelling of unstripped muscle fibers, improves respitory efficiency.

Regards,
Lux :cool:

[BUM3]

I'm almost out of Xenadrine and will be picking up something soon. Either more Xenadrine or the Zantrex-3. Any thoughts?

Mario

[cherry]

does anyone know anything about SIBUTRAMINE HYDROCHLORIDE CAPSULES????.........

[Anshim]

Originally posted by Trainerdan in February 2002
At the time of this writing, I suggest the following 3 products:

(1) BetaLean by EAS
(2) Adipokinetix by Syntrax (technically, a NCY stack)
(3) Xenadrine by Cytodyne Technologies

Hi TrainerDan -

I hope you're still checking this thread! I just finished reading this entire thread, and your information/recommendations about ECA stacks is really interesting.

Waaaay back in February 2002, someone asked you to list your top 3 recommended products (see last post on page 3). Since it's been more than a year, and I'm sure many new products have been released to the market since February 2002, can you please update your top 3 recommended products?

Thank you!!

Anshim
:wave:

[JolieFleur]

I am currently taking:

Double X Multi-Vitamin/Multi-Mineral Supplements (Awesome)
Ocean Essentials Omega-3 Fatty Acids
Potassium Gluconate
Wellbutrin for mild depression :confused:
Ortho Tri-Cyclen

My roommate has some Dexatrim Results pills that she stopped taking b/c she's concerned about all the media hype surrounding diet pills. So I'm thinking about taking them. Anyone know of any bad interactions there?

[Anshim]

Hi Jolie -

Try

http://health.discovery.com/encyclopedias/checker/checker.jsp?jspLetter=A

or

http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/Interaction/ChooseDrugs

to check for drug interactions between any or all of your meds.

Hope this helps.

Anshim

[josiekat]

I'm confused. I have read through the posts & am not sure I understand the references between Hydroxycut & caffeine.

When I read through the ingredients on the bottle, I don't see caffeine or Guarana (sp?). This is what the label says:

Per serving: 2 capsules

Medicinal
Ephedrine (as Sida cordifolia) 10mg

Non-Medicinal
Hydroxagen (Garcinia cambogia) 1000mg
Green Tea 455mg
White Willow Bark 50mg

Did I read the previous posts wrong where it said to take hydroxycut with caffeine? Some of the posts also say that the product comes mixed with caffeine...is it coming from the tea?

I'm reading the bottle & it says improper use of this product includes but is not limited to using this product with other stimulants such as caffeine.

Please help....I'm so confused about all of this.

Thanks everyone!

[Deshukel]

I went to Xenadrines website...couldn't find regular. Are they only making Ephedra free now? They are claiming that it is better than before...Hmmmm.

https://www.cytodyne.com/products/EFX/default.asp

Now thqat I look at that link.. it is actually cytodynes site..

I'll have to research a little more.

I love that drumlib.com site...

[Magicbyrd]

Trainerdan...or anyone for that matter!!
I have been doing the lowcarb lifestyle for about 7 months now and have had great results (along with weight training and cardio). I'm down from 252 to 189. I am considering taking a fat burner...to help with the last bit of fat around my waist. I have high blood pressure and don't want to take ephedrine...etc. A friend uses Stacker2 which is caffiene...I take medication which controls my blood pressure nicely...particularly since losing 60 plus pounds and drink caffiene everyday...4 or 5 cups at least. (I know If I take the fat burner with caffiene I can't drink the coffee too). I will consult my doctor about this but wondered what you thought of the fat burners without ephedrine...??? :confused:

[Meg_S]

I have some articles saved about fat burners, I'll find and post them. Basically, without ephedra, or the herbal equivalant they're useless. Caff. and eph. stacked are worth far more than the sum of their parts, yes, fat burners may have all sorts of other ingredients but generally they're in such small doses as to be ineffective and they're only in there so that the companies can claim they have ingredients that do "such and such" and that the product is "new and improved."

Now, that said, has anyone heard of something called Hot Rox? It's really hyped, and really expensive - though it can be found for $50 instead of $90 and am curious as to what's the word going around. I've read testimonials in other forums as to it's effectiveness, but there were also people who said it did nothing. (shrug) anyone?

Meg

[Meg_S]

This is copied and pasted from a site: http://www.tomvenuto.com/res3art.cfm?compid=18&artid=101

Everyone has an opinion and different experience, I'm just passing on what I've seen.

At the end of the article are some advertisements for Tom Venuto's free newsletters etc.. and I've deleted them just in case we're not supposed to post things like that. If anyone actually wants to see them they can be found by clicking on the above like, you'll see the article+personal advertisements.

EPHEDRA-FREE FAT BURNERS - EXPERT'S ROUNDTABLE
Author: Tom Venuto
Date: Mar 24, 2003
Publisher: Fitness Renaissance

With Special Guests: Chris Aceto, Will Brink, Phil Kaplan, Jon Benson, Nelson Montana, and Lyle McDonald

"We've Made Ephedra Obsolete!"

"Clinically Proven More Powerful Than
Ephedrine-Based Fat Burners!"

"Groundbreaking University Research Yields
Unprecedented Results With Radical New Thermogenic."

"Fastest Acting Fat Burner Ever Created!"

"The Most Advanced Fat Burner Known to Science - Proven More Powerful Than Ephedra-Based Thermogenics!"

These are just a handful of the bold claims that many supplement companies are making about ephedra-free fat burners. But could they really be true?

Last year, ephedrine & ephedra sales skyrocketed to over one billion dollars, up 20% from the previous year, according to the Nutrition Business Journal. With the negative publicity surrounding recent ephedrine-related deaths and FDA pressure mounting, it’s been speculated that the push for ephedra-free products has more to do with maintaining bank account balances than it does with "groundbreaking new research."

Do the supplement companies see the writing on the wall? Do they fear imminent doom for their major cash cows, causing them to scramble for quick, albeit unproven, alternatives? Are they pulling a “bait and switch” on unsuspecting consumers who only recognize the brand names, but have no idea what’s really in the bottle?

Consumers who are tired of getting ripped off want to know the truth, so I asked six of the most knowledgeable and respected weight loss and bodybuilding supplement experts in the country to get the real scoop.

Some of the questions I put to these guys were:

* Are ephedra-free fat burners effective at all or just a big scam?


* What are your thoughts on the marketing of these products and the claims being made?


* Is the safety of ephedrine as big a concern for healthy people as the media makes it out to be, and if so, are the ephedra-free products really safer?


* How does this push for ephedra-free products tie in with recent events surrounding ephedrine (athlete deaths, FDA pressure, etc)


* What does the "real world" have to say about ephedra-free? (or if it's too early to tell, what do you think the real world WILL say?)

You’ll quickly discover as you read the responses that opinions on ephedrine are highly polarized and emotionally charged. But that’s exactly why and how I selected this panel: I did not pick six experts who agreed with each other nor did I pick only those who shared my personal point of view. Rather, I specifically selected this panel to present different viewpoints for your consideration.

Ultimately, you’ll have to decide for yourself whether ephedra-caffeine or the new ephedra-free products are right for you. Hopefully the facts you learn from these eye-opening essays will help you make an intelligent decision.

So without further ado, let’s get started, shall we?

CHRIS ACETO


Chris Aceto is a world-renowned bodybuilding nutritionist to the pros and author of "Everything You Need to Know About Fat Loss," "Understanding Bodybuilding Training and Nutrition," and "Championship Bodybuilding." He is a regular contributor to FLEX and Muscle & Fitness magazines. You can visit Chris on the web and order his books at www.nutramedia.com

It's silly to believe there will be a replacement for ephedra and ephedrine. First, ephedra exerts drug-like effects. And ephedrine is a drug. Both increase the heart rate and strongly stimulate the nervous system. The result is a release of catecholamines, strong messengers that literally stimulate fat cells to break down. In my opinion, ephedrine is the second most effective fat loss drug next to phentermine.

That said, there is no comparable substitute in terms of effectiveness. Not even close. A couple years ago, I put together an article for people who despised the stimulatory effects of ephedrine. The goal was to find alternatives - supplements that might facilitate fat loss - without feeling the jittery or over stimulation that occurs with ephedra, ephedrine and added caffeine.

I didn't find anything significant. I did list tyrosine, calcium, selenium, green tea (before the green tea bandwagon took off) and guggul products and a few other things. They may work and I would certainly suggest them for someone who is serious about getting lean- who plans to DIET - but they'll never replace ephedra and especially ephedrine. Plus, people like to feel 'high.' You can’t get that high-type edge from anything else.

Oh, don't forget: Ephedra not only speeds up the metabolic rate, but it prevents protein breakdown. When you diet, you risk losing muscle (protein) and when that happens, your metabolic rate slows. Ephedrine products prevent that.

I think what we'll see is this: When people who used to use ephedrine products with success switch to ephedra-free products, they'll just stop buying them. Some companies will probably go out of business.

PHIL KAPLAN


Phil Kaplan is a 20-year industry veteran, public speaker, outspoken consumer advocate, author of hundreds of articles, several best-selling books including “Transform!” and "The Best You've Ever Been," and too many more programs to mention. Phil writes "The Fitness Truth" column and is heard every Saturday morning on his Mind & Muscle Fitness Hour Radio Show at 9 AM on News radio 610 in South Florida, worldwide on the Internet via www.philkaplan.com (phone: 1 800 552-1998)

Most of the new ephedrine-free formulas have simply replaced ephedrine with synephrine. Whether they use the words "citrus aurantium," or "bitter orange," the active alkaloids are synephrine. Is synephrine safe? Who knows? It hasn't been used for any extended period of time as a several-times-per-day fat burning compound. It's unfortunate, but the reality is, we often have to wait until enough people get injured or die due to abuse or overuse of a product before it's deemed unsafe. Ephedrine has been out there for years and the dosages are well into the millions with ephedrine sales amounting to well over $1 billion annually. There have been enough documented strokes and deaths to now seriously question whether the brakes should be put on ephedrine sales. Synephrine risk, by comparison, still remains an untested unknown.

Before the big push for ephedrine free formulas, synephrine (or its isomer phenylephrine) was used in nasal sprays. If you ever read the warning label on Neo-Synephrine, you'll find it closely mimics the standard warnings posted in tiny print on ephedrine compounds.

The synephrine research is sketchy, there is a lack of relevant research directly considering synephrine as a fat burner, and because it's an alpha adrenergic agonist, the vasoconstrictive properties certainly make it contraindicated for anyone with a history of hypertension. While ephedrine has resulted in weight loss, both in the laboratory and anecdotally, synephrine has not demonstrated anywhere near the weight loss potential of the compound it's being used to replace. Judging by the way they're marketed, the synephrine formulas are being developed so supplement sellers maintain revenues. They know words such as "thermogenic" sell products, and they know if ephedrine becomes a black market product, millions will be seeking out an alternative.

When weighing out the value vs. the risk involved with synephrine usage, it's important to note that many of the supplements sold as fat burners are conglomerates of stimulant compounds. Even if synephrine does prove safe on its own, combine it with L-tyrosine, yohimbe, caffeine, and stimulant herbs and the test of time can only tell. Unfortunately, the test of time may lead to injuries and deaths that could have been prevented if these products do find their place in the market without adequate safety testing.

NELSON MONTANA


Nelson Montana is the Author of "The Bodybuilding Truth,” and his brand new book, "Bottom Line Bodybuilding." He is an industry insider and bodybuilding journalist with articles featured in Muscle Mag International, Testosterone Magazine, and other publications on and off the web. You can visit Nelson on the web at www.nelsonmontana.com.

Are ephedra-free fat burners safe and effective? That depends on the product, the ingredients, and the quality of the company. I've never been a fan of ephedra anyway. I believe there are better alternatives, but some products are just "ephedra-wanna-be's" in that they're milder (and less effective) versions of it. (i.e. synephrine).

As much as I'm all for civil liberties and a big believer in the use of supplements, there's no denying that ephedra is hardly free from side effects. It's a drug -- no two ways about it.

Anything that stimulates the CNS can arguably be called a fat loss product. The problem is, the body will always try to maintain homeostasis and in doing so, attempt to slow the metabolism down when it’s over stimulated. Consequently, once you stop using the stimulant, your metabolism is more sluggish than ever, and you gain back the weight you lost -- and then some.

The research on ephedra-free is all shaky. The supplement companies are promoting these new products as “Advanced” or “new and improved,” of course. That's business. What do you expect them to say? It's ALMOST as good? You can't attract customers by promoting a product as "not bad." You must convince the public they can't live without it! It's up to the consumer to do his or her homework.

But the ad men know people are lazy and they exploit that. Like most supplement claims, it's all a stretch. And they'll stretch the truth as far as they can and get away with it.

Anyone can say that almost ANY nutrient is a factor is fat loss or muscle building or clearer thinking, simply due to the fact that the body works in tandem. If a component is missing, it starts breaking down -- all the way down the line.

There’s really a bigger issue involved here. For one thing, the term "thermogenic" is a bit of a farce. The amount of ephedra (or any other CNS stimulant) needed to actually raise core body temperature will make you feel like death warmed over. The weight loss effect comes mostly from the appetite suppression.

The key to permanent weight loss is twofold. Rule number one is: You must burn more calories than you consume. There's no denying that, no matter what anyone tells you.

The other, and often overlooked aspect, is to stimulate the thyroid to burn more fat -- and to do it in a way that's healthy, not with the use of drugs. I get more into that in my new book: BOTTOM LINE BODYBUILDING. The Cold Hard Facts On: Training - Nutrition - Supplements- And Drugs.

Let's face it. If these products worked so well, we'd all be eating calzones and cheesecake and be ripped! It just doesn't work that way. Body alteration is a lifestyle -- not a quick fix.

WILL BRINK


Will Brink is a well-known and respected industry journalist and consultant whose articles have been featured in: Muscle Mag International, Muscle & Fitness, Muscle Media, Physical, Woman's World and Let's Live. Will is the author of "Priming the Anabolic Environment" and two best selling e-books:
Muscle-Building Nutrition:
www.musclebuildingnutrition.com
Diet Supplements Revealed:
www.aboutsupplements.com
Will’s home page, "The Brink Zone":
www.brinkzone.com

The current explosion of ephedrine-free weight loss products is more a function of market pressure vs. being based on any breakthroughs in science per se. Many companies may be seeing the writing on the wall regarding the bias media coverage and FDA's intent to ban ephedrine, and feel it's best for their company to distance themselves from ephedrine.

Claims by some companies that their new ephedrine-free "fat burners" are equivalent to- or even superior to -EC based products, is wishful thinking and marketing driven BS. That's not to say that some compounds found in the new E free products might not be useful for fat loss (which depends on the compound in questions of course), but none have had head to head in vivo studies comparing to EC, which has a plethora of data to support both the safety and effectiveness of EC. When any company funds a study of their new E free formula vs. a properly designed EC formula, and shows equivalent fat loss, then my opinion will be altered. I wont be holding my breath however...

On the matter of EC side effects so hyped by the media; the side effects of EC are short lived, transient, and minor in normo-tensive healthy people, as has been shown in literally dozens of studies. The dangers of EC are far over stated and often financially/politically motivated. It's sad, but typical of the medical community and FDA to basically ignore the data on ephedrine. Seems to me, those living in glass houses should not throw stones, as FDA "approved" drugs kill an estimated 125,000 Americans each year and deaths from prescription drugs are the fifth or sixth leading cause of death in the United States. Does that mean we should ban pharmaceutical drugs? Of course not, because often (1) the benefit of the drug outweighs the risk and (2) when you look at the total number of people taking FDA approved drugs and divide that by the number of people who die from these drugs, the risk is relatively small.

Such is exactly the case with ephedrine based fat burners, which to date have been related to not even a handful of deaths. It's often an ignorant doctor or nutritionist who gives the above dire warning about the risks of ephedrine. But what about the risks from doctors? According to a report from the U.S. Dept. of Health & Human Services, there are 120,000 Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year! Should we ban doctors, or realize that the amount of good they do per person greatly outweighs the risk? What is that risk? Again, it comes down to a simple risk to benefit assessment. Being we know that obesity is a major factor in the deaths of millions of Americans, and we know that ephedrine based fat burners are quite safe, it would appear the benefit of such products far outweigh the risks.

Bottom line: EC products appear quite safe and highly effective, but they are not for everyone. Nothing in life us 100% risk free. E free formulas may have their uses (this statement depends VERY much on the E free formula in question), but there is no proof they are the equivalent, much less superior, to a good EC based formula.

JON BENSON


Jon Benson is a nutrition and fitness counselor from Dallas, Texas and the founder of All Your Strength.com. Formerly overweight and ill, Jon Benson completely transformed himself; overcoming hypothyroidism, hyperinsulinemia, high blood pressure and obesity. He now spends his time teaching others how to transform from the inside out through his “Total Transformation Program.” Log on to www.AllYourStrength.com for more info and to subscribe to his free monthly newsletter.

When I was in my early 20s, I was the typical bodybuilder looking for a shortcut (this shy of steroids). I discovered the ephedrine/caffeine/aspirin (ECA) stack while reading an old pamphlet by bodybuilding guru Dan Duchaine.

The ECA stack, taken three times per day, worked miracles on my fat stores! I felt the thermogenic 'wave', a sensation of flushing heat from my toes to my head, several times a day. I knew I was on to something! Unfortunately, I was on nothing but a road to serious illness.

After years of cycling on and off this stuff, I began to notice extreme fatigue. I went to my doctor and, low and behold, my adrenal glands were diagnosed as "shot." I began therapy to repair them. During the therapy I developed and still suffer from panic disorder.

Ephedrine usage left me with taxed adrenals, a nasty adrenaline feedback loop, and MORE body fat that when I started the stack. It's taken years, but now I'm virtually free of stimulants. Both of my physicians are positive that, had I not played around with this junk, I'd be 'normal' today.

The herb "ephedra" is the mother of the drug ephedrine (herbs and drugs are really the same thing; the latter simply having the reputation of greater side-effects and get the pleasure of massive regulation and promotion to physicians). This is an important starting point, as most fat burners use ephedra as the main ingredient.

The physiological desire here is to generate greater body heat, a process known as "Thermogenesis." Since a calorie is technically a unit of heat, it stands to reason that the greater the core temperature of the body, the more calories are burned at rest.

Many other herbs and drugs are considered thermogenic to one degree or another. Caffeine is slightly thermogenic by itself. Combined with ephedrine (EC) it's a potent thermogenic aid and does, most assuredly, cause fat loss to occur.

So what's the big deal about EC? Well, on top of the slight to moderate risk of death, strokes and heart attacks, and a substantial risk of increased blood pressure and adrenal fatigue, ephedrine is addictive. There's no getting around this simple fact: ephedrine is the weaker chemical cousin of SPEED. That's right: You're a druggie if you're on ephedrine, ephedra, or ephed-whatever. Same thing, different degrees. How anyone can suggest that "weak speed" is SAFE is beyond me...but that's just my opinion.

Ephedra is far less addictive, less expensive, and less potent, hence its use in so many fat-burning supplements. The trouble is that it's no less harmful to your nervous system, especially if you have illnesses or genetic "time bombs" you are unaware of.

To one person, popping a few pills containing ephedra would cause no ill effect whatsoever. To another, a slight bit of the jitters. To a few, death. Those are the facts. You simply do not know. It's the biological equivalent of playing Russian Roulette.... all for a better set of abs? No thank you.

So, aren’t ephedra-free supplements considered a "safe" alternative? Sure, but only by the marketing companies that push this junk. There are major problems here, not the least of which is the fact that 99% of these supplements flat-out don't work. Nevertheless, the supplement industry has caught on with a vengeance. "Ephedra-free" products are all the rage.

Here’s the bottom line about ephedra-free:

(1) None of the ephedra-free supplements have any substantial research behind them. Most of the published, peer-reviewed research on ephedrine was conducted using a "stack" of ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin, in very specific dosages divided throughout the day.

(2) Most of the ephedra-free research was conducted by parties who gained financially from favorable reports (this is nothing new, especially in the medical arena.)

(3) Most of these supplements are ineffective at stimulating thermogenesis to the point to where significant fat loss occurs.

(4) Some people will suffer the same side-effects as ephedrine-based products due to the fact that most ephedra-free products still contain stimulants (Which once again, makes the product addictive and makes the manufacturers quite giddy).

(5) The psychology of "leanness in a bottle" is detrimental to anyone's long-term fitness and health goals.

What about those before and after pics that accompany the slick ads for ephedra-free supplements? Tom’s newsletter has frequently pointed out the rampant lies perpetrated in the bodybuilding rags: Get fat and flabby, snap a before pic, resuming their training and then credit this amazing 'transformation' on XYZ fat-burner. We won't mention names, but I think most of us know the companies responsible for this sort of consumer fraud.

My take on this issue is simple: I guess you could say that while ephedrine and caffeine may be legitimate fat loss aids, the most reasonable, safe and effective fat loss agents are still a great diet, less calories consumed than expended, weights, and cardio.

LYLE MCDONALD


Lyle McDonald holds a degree in kinesiology from UCLA and is the author of "The Ketogenic Diet." Arguably, he is the world's top expert on ketogenic dieting. (He literally “wrote the book on it”). Lyle’s articles have appeared in FLEX magazine, Hardgainer, Dirty Dieting, Think Muscle.com, and Cyberpump.com. Lyle is also well-known for his Body Opus diaries (http://low-carb.org/lylemcd/) where he documented his week by week experience on Body Opus. To order his book, visit Lyle on the web at www.theketogenicdiet.com.

When Tom approached me to give my opinions on the new crop of ephedra-free fat burners, I wondered if I'd be able to do it without calling everyone in the industry names. I probably won't but I'll do my best.

The current backlash against ephedrine/caffeine (EC) combinations is no surprise, even if it is a bit ridiculous. Yes, EC has caused a number of deaths over the years. So has any drug or substance you can care to name. Frankly, aspirin kills far more people per year than EC ever could. As well, in almost every case of EC associated death, the actual cause of death had more to do with improper use than anything else. Whether it was excessive dosing, combining it with other substances (the Herbal Ecstasy products were primarily EC and ravers are known for doing all kinds of other drugs) or simply folks who shouldn't have been taking it in the first place (i.e. individuals with preexisting heart conditions). And while the recent death of a professional baseball player was conveniently blamed on his use of EC, the fact that he showed up to camp out of shape and was forced to train in the heat is the more likely cause.

If one looks at the clinical research over the past 10 years or so, EC turns out to be extremely safe and effective as long as it is used properly and intelligently. It's only with abuse or non-intelligent use that problems can arise. Of course, the same can be said for any substance. Alcohol use is different from abuse, steroid use is different from abuse, and as I mentioned even aspirin can kill you if you abuse it. I consider EC one of the best dieting products to have ever come down the pike: it's effective, inexpensive and extremely safe AS LONG AS YOU USE IT CORRECTLY.

Of course, since our planet is mostly filled with morons, a bunch of people used it incorrectly and now the rest of us have to suffer by losing one of the best diet compounds ever. But all of this is really sort of irrelevant, the writing is on the wall for EC products and they are unlikely to be readily available in the near future. Even if outright legislation isn't passed banning EC stacks, the insurance necessary for companies to sell the stuff (just in case of litigation) will be too high. Supplement companies, always trying to stay ahead of the game, realized this and are now bombarding us with 'ephedrine free' fat burners that they claim are more effective than the EC stack. Twinlab jumped on the bandwagon, MuscleTech has released a new ephedra free version of Hydroxycut and the boys over at T-mag are busily hyping their new HotRox product just as they've hyped every other product they've ever released.

Which raises the question, are these EC free fat burners effective and are they more effective than the EC stack? Are they safer and do they accomplish anything in the real world. Here are my thoughts. Now, I can't claim to have looked at the ingredients of all the current crop of products so my comments are far from all inclusive. I did check out a few of the major ones (products by Twin and Muscletech and the ingredients in HotRox). For the most part, they are filled with crap.

Synephrine is a common ingredient, usually some type of stimulatory amino acid (most seem to pick phenylalanine although tyrosine would be a far better choice), Muscletech put Citrimax in their product. Other ingredients are green tea extract (which does seem to have an effect thermogenically by itself), a herbal form of caffeine (which is a mild thermogenic) and the standard mix of random herbs that probably do nothing at all. At least HotRox has some innovative compounds, they are using a 'super' form of 7-keto DHEA that Bill Roberts cooked up along with some other ingredients.

Frankly, I'm not impressed by most of these products and the claims of superiority over EC are nothing but that: claims. These products might have some effectiveness (anything is better than nothing) but as far as being superior to EC, I doubt it highly. As far as specific ingredient, synephrine is sort of a fake thermogenic, it makes you feel warmer but it doesn't do it by increasing how much heat you're generating (through true thermogenesis). Rather, it's a vasoconstrictor that makes you lose less heat. Hence you feel warmer but it's not increasing caloric expenditure. I should note that synephrine still *might* have an effect through it's action as an alpha-1 agonist; it might increase leptin uptake into the brain which can only be useful on a diet. I discussed this topic in my Bromocriptine booklet. Citrimax is crap from a fat burning standpoint unless you're a rat, although it may have mild appetite suppressant properties (it's also useful during carbohydrate overfeeding but you're not doing that on a diet). I already mentioned the amino acid combos but, even if they picked tyrosine, you can't get enough of the active ingredient into the product for it to do much. The limit on your standard capsule is 1 gram and you typically need gram doses of aminos to get anything done. Yeah, fine caffeine is a no brainer and green tea extract is probably useful (it inhibits adrenaline/noradrenaline breakdown so it's more of a thermogenic extender) but you can get those separately for a hell of a lot cheaper.

I should probably mention T-mag's HotRox since it's at least innovative and different from the rest of the crap products. Except for one abstract (that I'd like to see the human research on), 7-keto DHEA is unproven (except in rat liver slices). Gugguls actually do have some human research behind them and some people have reported good results so that works. The forskolin derivative they've included is interesting as well but I'm still not sure that any of these compounds (forskolin included) actually makes it to the fat cell; all of the research is done in a test-tube and I've never seen studies on oral bioavailiability of the stuff. Again, caffeine is a no brainer and although the inclusion of a tyrosine and tryptophan derivative is interesting, I doubt they can get enough in there to do much. If someone were going to try an EC free thermogenic (and has $70/month to toss), at least HotRox might have a chance of doing something; the rest are basically crap as far as I'm concerned.

I guess that pretty much sums up my thoughts. Frankly, all of the scare tactics used to discredit EC were pretty much crap. And with the possible exception of HotRox, most of the EC-free thermogenics I've seen are overpriced combinations of crap that are unlikely to have more than a mild effect (if they do anything at all). Most of these products are too new for any real world results to be there. I'm going to mourn EC which was about as close to a 'perfect' diet drug we had, but that's just the way it goes sometimes.

This article originally appeared in Tom Venuto’s Monthly E-Zine, “Bodybuilding & Fitness Secrets” (BFS).

Tom Venuto is a lifetime natural bodybuilder, personal trainer, gym owner, freelance writer and author of "Burn the Fat, Feed The Muscle" (BFFM): Fat Burning Secrets of the World's Best Bodybuilders and Fitness Models.

[Meg_S]

last note! I bought an e-book, the Will Brinks one called "Diet Supplements Revealed" and it said a similar thing about Ephedra and Caffeine. Both have small benefits on their own but togeher they work well, and then gave examples of studies.. then read world experience. It seems to work in the real world - unlike a lot of other supps.

I'm not promoting a stack here, just showing what I've learned. Please don't take this as endorsement or encouragement to take a fat burner if it is not for you.

Meg

[Trainerdan]

Well, here it is 2003 ... and here are my Top 3 Ephedra based products that are on the market ...

1. Xenadrine RFA (if you can find it still)

2. Hydroxycut new formula (with ephedra and green tea)

3. Anabolic Fitness NYC Stack combine with Biotest's T2.

As you can see, not much has changed. LOL. Just new products recycling the same old thing.

Meg, I have seen the ads for Hot Rox, but have no experience with it. I basically shun anything that is non-ephedra based as hype.

Josiecat , I am looking on my bottle of Hyrdoxycut right now, and under the HydroxtTea heading it reads Guarana extract. Also, green tea does contain some caffeine. Don't take caffeine with Hydroxcut since it already contains it. :)

[Magicbyrd]

Meg S
Thanks for the reply to my post. Very interesting stuff and helpful.

[Sox]

http://www.xenadrine-stacker-hydroxycut-review.com/fat-burners-diet-pills/lean-system-7-review-2.htm

Based on that link and lots of other stuff i've read (including here) I'm trying to figure out what's best for me.

Currently I'm looking at
Xenadrine EFX
Lean System 7
Hydroxycut

HCut is bloody expensive and I'm leary about it being nearly as effecitve as it was. I've read that EFX is still pretty effective and it's definitly a lot cheaper and less pills per day which is nice.

Then we run into Lean System 7. Now this stuff is expensive but sports the least side-affects (not that I woudln't mind being hyper and jittery (psst, after years of mt. dew and video games i kind of like that feeling)) but i guess less side affects are cool. I also have to give them credit for not being an ECA and then having to overcome the ephedrine change. I'm having a real tough time finding reviews on it though. Has anyone heard/read/experienced anything to warrant the price cost? I can find it for about 50-60bux/month. I can personally swing this cost if it looks really promising but want some background info first. Would really apprecaite feedback

Also, I saw a mention of not taking a thermogenic while on an antibiotic. I'm sorry if I missed the reasoning behind this but could somebody let me know? I take Doxycycline 50mg 2x/day. Only for another month and a half though.

Mucho Thanks

[josiekat]

Hey trainerdan,

Thanks for the help....I guess the Hydroxycut I have has different ingredients....could be the difference between the States & Canada...not sure.

I have done as much research as I can on them & have come up with different ideas as to how long I should take them for...some say 3 days....some say 6 days....some say I can take them indefinately.....my brain hurts from all of this thinking....I just want to make sure that I am well informed before I start using them.

Thx again!

Jo

[John2001]

Trainer Dan wrote : "I have seen the ads for Hot Rox, but have no experience with it. I basically shun anything that is non-ephedra based as hype."

Wish I read this thread before investing in Hotrox!! lol

My results: Nah-dah, as in nadda farging thing, but wasted $'s.

Stick to Dan's example, wish I had read it first!
I listened to the hype ad's and found it did nothing.

I do like other Biotest products, just not the (not so)Hot-rox.

Cheers, J

[timco]

Still there Dan?

I noticed you put xenadrine b/f hydroxycut in your list. Any particular reason for this? From looking on ebay, it seems that Hydroxycut is a bit more expensive than xenadrine, so I'm wondering if people in general consider it to be any more effective than xenadrine.

I haven't really tried either but am planning to start soon. I'm just wondering if I could take either hydroxycut or xenadrine, which would be the better one to take?

thanks for your help trainerdan!

Tim

[tofi]

Just a note that trainerdan has not posted on this board since June 2003 so that questions for him may not be seen by him. His e-mail problems apparently continue as a number of people have tried without success to contact him.

[timco]

Thank you, tofi.

I think I answered my own question. From reading a number of message boards, it seems that people do prefer xenadrine over hydroxycut in most cases.

I would still like to hear anyone elses opinion on the best thermogenic formula out there, if anyone is listening.

thanks again!

Tim

[Natrushka]

I haven't really tried either but am planning to start soon. I'm just wondering if I could take either hydroxycut or xenadrine, which would be the better one to take? Hi Tim, I'm not Dan but I can possibly help :)

I'd go with the Xenadrine - hyrdoxycut contains HCA (hydroxy citric acid) and it can interfere with ketosis. So if you're doing LC any other choice is best. I don't think you can actually get a real ECA stack anymore though.

Frankly, when I run out, I'm just gonna make my own ;)

-Nat

[timco]

Thanks for your reply, Natrushka,

What do you mean when you say that you can't get a real ECA stack anymore? I know that the E in ECA seems to have been banned, so how would you make the ECA w/o the E?

[Natrushka]

Tim, you make it with the E - all three ingredients can be bought legally, it's just the mix that is no longer available :)

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?p=1319506#post1319506

-Nat

[m0rgan]

here in australia the raw ingredients are hard to get too!
ephedrine, yohimbine, 7-keto-dhea etc etc are not found in the stores :(

unfortunately you have to know somebody to get anything that works

unfortunately i dont know anyone :(

[Natrushka]

m0rgan, can you not order the stuff online? Or would customs be a PITA?

-N

[misfit]

The Thermogenic deal just doesn't seem logical to me. I feel that if it worked, I wouldn't have 1 oz. of fat on me!!! The "Power Surges" would have burnt it all off looooong ago!! Talk about "Thermogenics" a person hasn't experienced any till you go through "the flashes"!!!!! LOL

[m0rgan]

aussie customs take their job very seriously, theres a list of controlled substances longer than the oxford dictionary....

so the chances of getting stuff though are low :(

obviously some gets through and we sheep are willing to pay through the nose to get it.
tis disheartening when I see the real price

[Natrushka]

That seems strange the ephedrine would be on such a list - it's a common cold remmedy ingredient. Are the regulations as strict over in NZ? What about health food stores, where things are sold as 'nasal decongestants' (this is how it works in Canada anyway - don't call it a fat loss supplement or claim it helps and it doesn't have to pass by Health Canada)

-N

[m0rgan]

no our government is careful about protecting my health and has duly banned ephedrine in all shapes sizes and forms

psuedo-eph is allowed but now they are keeping their eye on that too (meth manufacture?)
but that hardly counts as a fat burner anyway

[Serena]

I have read some of these posts and it's hard to find one about satcker 2 w/o ephedra. I bought some yesterday. I have been on Atkins for a little over a month and after 3 weeks of not being in ketosis and not losing, I took a couple of days off and then after a week of doing well and losing a few pounds and being in ketosis, I screwed up again! Anyway, I have made a comitment this time and I am on day 3 of about 1300 calories, 70% or higher from fat. I am still not in ketosis! I took the stacker yesterday once and one this morning...do you think that's why? I really feel like I need a little boost for the energy an dgave up coffee in the begining.

I workout 5-6 days a week and I was having a hard time finding the energy to do a really hard workout. I usually have this w/o schedule:

Mon: Run (sprint) 20-25 minutes, upper body
Tues: Spinning, abs
Wed: Run (sprint) 20-25 minutes, lower body
Thurs: Spinning, Abs
Fri: Run (sprint) 20-25 minutes, upper body
Sat: Spinning (usually)

I follow BFL quite a bit for the weights and the sprinting part. I have had great success with this ( I gained 70 pounds with a first pregnancy and then lost 80 with BFL and WW's).

Mostly I was posting here for info on Stacker 2 but also from trainer Dan, I am going to get a personal training cert at the end of the month and would like to burn some fat between now and then, what would you recommend? My body fat is around 18% now, my goal is 15%. I will also be getting a spinning cert in January, is my goal unreasonable for someone who does the kind of exercising that I do? I posted this under someone else's question for trainer Dan too, but I just noticed he hasn't post in over 2 months, anyone else?

[Meg_S]

Hey guys! I've been reading about a couple of thermos that I had prev. not heard of: Thermorexin and Liporexin. Any experience, thoughts?

[Trainerdan]

Never heard of either of them Meg ... Sorry ... I stick to the ones that always work for me ... I'll poke around and see what I hear though ...

[Meg_S]

Hey, I'll post some info on thermorexin and liporexin...including their claims. Lipo First


Liporexin is a stimulant free thermogenic and lipolytic (fat burning) formula.
It enhances your body's ability to burn fat as well as enhancing your metabolism. Most fat burners work by speeding you up, Liporexin enhances the natural thermogenic and lipolytic action of your body without the use of strong stimulants like ephedra. Liporexin is a powerful but more natural approach to fat loss.

Liporexin may also have a mild
nootropic effect, mostly due to its
high acetyl-l-carnitine content.




Ingredients:

Acetyl-l-Carnitine:
Also known as ALCAR. A more biologically active form of l-carnitine. This acetylated version of L-carnitine has been shown to have many beneficial effects on mitochondrial use of energy. Because of this Acetyl-l-Carnitine improves available energy and lipid metabolism. In addition, through the donation of its acetyl group it enhances the amount of available acetyl-choline, which will have nootropic(mind enhancing) effects. ALCAR also has a great number of benefits with respect to heart health.

Green Tea extract (50% ECGC):
Green Tea polyphenols have been shown in clinical trials to elevate metabolism by up to 6-8% or more. It also has great anti-oxidant benefits, improves glucose clearance and limits the enzyme 5a reductase.

Acetyl-l-Tyrosine:
A more biologically active form of tyrosine which is a precursor for dopamine and norepinephrine that are among the "fat burning" and appetite control neurotransmitters. Tyrosine is also essential for the synthesis of thyroid hormone.

DMAE:
DMAE is a precursor to acetylcholine the main neurotransmitter in the human brain. Supplementation with DMAE has been shown to increase neuromuscular performance as well as providing a direct but mild stimulatory effect which acts to reduce perceived exertion.

Grapeseed extract:
A powerful anti-oxidant. Grape seed extract has been shown to Reduce skin aging and loss of elasticity as well as Enhance capillary strength and vascular function.

Capsicum (7% capsicanoids):
Studies indicate that Capsicum can slow fat absorption in the small intestine and boost the metabolic rate so the thermogenesis (fat burning) is enhanced.

Guggulsterones Z and E:
Shown to maintain and improve thryroid levels, which is critical when dieting. Also reduces LDL cholesterol and some studies show that it increases HDL levels, an important, if secondary, concern among most people.

Ginger root 5% and Bioperine (both shown to enhance and improve absorption of the ingredients)

Vitamin B3- as co-factor Nicotinamide 5mg
Nicotinamide, via its major metabolite NAD++ (nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide), is involved in a wide range of biological processes but most importantly the production of energy.

Vitamin B6- as co-factor Piridoxal-5-phosphate 5mg
Piridoxal-5-phosphate is the active form of vitamin B-6, it is essential for protein synthesis and lipid metabolism. P-5-P has additional benefits with respect to heart health, influence on homcysteine levels, and on reducing pre-menstrual symptoms likely due to its effects on neurotransmitter synthesis.

Vitamin B5- as d-calcium pantothenate 5mg
d-calcium pantothenate is important for the production of the essential cofactor called Coenzyme A. Coenzyme A is necessary for production of steroid hormones and cholesterol. Coenzyme A is also necessary for some of the more important enzymatic processes include the break down and use of carbohydrates and fats. (ie. glycogenolysis, glycolysis, lipolysis, peroxisomal and mitochondrial beta oxidation, and the TCA energy producing cycle )

[Meg_S]

Thermorexin creates a complete thermogenic, anorectic and lipolytic environment to allow for optimal fat burning. What this means is that it increases your metabolism, helps manage your appetite and increases the use of stored fats for energy. In addition, Thermorexin provides mild nootropic effects will increase your focus in the gym.


Ingredients per capsule:

Thermogen and anorectant complex:

Synephrine hcl: 10mg
Synephrine is an alpha 1 agonist. Its main purpose is appetite suppression. It also has some mild thermogenic effects.

Caffeine USP: 100 mg
Caffeine is a basic part of most thermogenic stacks, it produces most of its effects by raising Cyclic AMP levels. In conjunction with other thermogens it has been shown to be more effective.

Yohimbine hcl: 3mg
Yohimbine is an alpha 2 antagonist. It is main effects are lipolysis of stubborn fats. It does this by blockin the A2 which is like an off switch for fat burning in those stubborn areas. It also has mild appetite suppressive effects

Theophylline: 30mg
Theophylline, derived from a 25% black tea extract, is a methylxanthine similar to caffeine. However it is also a mild beta adrenoceptor agonist. It provides mild stimulation, beta receptor related thermogenesis and bronchiodilation for improved cardio output



Green tea (98%): 50mg
Green tea extract provides 30mg (60%) of ecgc, a thermogenic enhancing polyphenol. Studies show significant increase in basal metabolic rate with green tea, significantly more when combined with other thermogens.

Nootropic and Focus Intensification Complex:

2-oxo-pyrrolidone: 50mg
Also known as piracetam, this is one of the most well researched nootropics. While its exact mechanism of action remains in contention its positive impact on memory and neurological function, which is often impaired while dieting, are undisputed.

DMAE: 40mg
DMAE is a precursor to acetylcholine the main neurotransmitter in the human brain. Supplementation with DMAE has been shown to increase neuromuscular performance as well as providing a direct but mild stimulatory effect which acts to reduce perceived exertion.

Vinpocetine: 3mg
Vinpocetine increases blood flow to the brain as well as increasing levels of noradrenaline and dopamine which increases mental energy and focus.

Acetyl-l-Carnitine: 50mg
Acetyl-l-Carnitine is a co-factor and regulator of a number of biological reactions that are important both for lipolysis and neural function including the synthesis of acetylcholine. It has been shown in numerous studies to improve the levels of beneficial neurotransmitters as well as upregulating their receptors. It has positive impact on thyrotropin (thyroid) and growth hormone releasing factors.

Acetyl-tyrosine: 50mg
A more biologically active form of tyrosine which is a precursor for dopamine and norepinephrine that are among the "fat burning" and appetite control neurotransmitters. It was added because Tyrosine is often depleted with "fat burner" use. Tyrosine is also essential for the synthesis of thyroid hormone.

Lipolytic Environment Complex:

Glucorell R®: 10mg/40mcg
Glucorell R consisting of 10mg of R+ alpha lipoic and 40mcg of biotin. GlucorellR has been shown to lower plasma insulin levels which is essential for fat burning. It is even more important with the use of fat burners since they can cause plasma insulin to rise as they "access" glycogen stores. The addition of Glucorell R takes care of the problem.


Additional Ingredients:

Kelp: 40mg

Kelp is rich in iodine and helps to maintain proper thyroid function which is essential for fat loss and energy.

Rhodiola Rosea (3% rosavins): 50mg

Rhodiola Rosea, also known as arctic root, is a powerful adaptogen. It has been shown in clinical trials to help maintain neurotransmitter production, endurance, and stave off depression (which is a common cause of cravings as high sugar meals raise serotonin levels). It also may have some benefits with respect to erectile function, which has been reported by testers of Thermorexin.

Bioperine®: 5mg

Bioperine is a black pepper extract that has been clinically shown to improve the uptake of nutrients

Ginger root extract: 3mg
Ginger root has been shown to improve uptake of nutrients, though by a slightly different method than bioperine. There is an additive effect, with respect to absorption, when they are used in conjunction.

MINERAL COMPLEX:

Zinc 4mg
Immune function and hormone maintenance. Also helps with tanning, essential for melanin production
Magnesesium 30mg
prevents cramping from heavy exercise and electrolyte depletion, may have benefits with respect to hormone levels
Copper 750mcg
Immune function, also important for melanin production.

Vitamin B1- Thiamine 5mg
Thiamin enhances circulation and helps with the metabolism of carbohydrates. It is also required for the health of the nervous system and is used in the biosynthesis of the neurotransmittersacetylcholine and gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA).

Vitamin B3- as co-factor Nicotinamide 10mg
Nicotinamide, via its major metabolite NAD++ (nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide), is involved in a wide range of biological processes but most importantly the production of energy.

Vitamin B5- as d-calcium pantothenate 10mg
d-calcium pantothenate is important for the production of the essential cofactor called Coenzyme A. Coenzyme A is necessary for production of steroid hormones and cholesterol. Coenzyme A is also necessary for some of the more important enzymatic processes include the break down and use of carbohydrates and fats. (ie. glycogenolysis, glycolysis, lipolysis, peroxisomal and mitochondrial beta oxidation, and the TCA energy producing cycle )


Vitamin B6- as co-factor Piridoxal-5-phosphate 3mg
Piridoxal-5-phosphate is the active form of vitamin B-6, it is essential for protein synthesis and lipid metabolism. P-5-P has additional benefits with respect to heart health, influence on homcysteine levels, and on reducing pre-menstrual symptoms likely due to its effects on neurotransmitter synthesis.

Vitamin B12- cyanocobalimin 300mcg 5000%
Cyanocobalamin is a Powerful blood building factor. It is a key nutrient for new growth. It is Important factor in maintaining health of nervous system, including brain cells. Cyanocobalamin is also necessary for normal digestion, absorption of foods, protein synthesis and carbohydrate and fat metabolism.

Vitamin C 50mg

Vitamin C is required in the synthesis of collagen in connective tissue, neurotransmitters, steroid hormones, carnitine, conversion of cholesterol to bile acids and enhances iron bioavailability. Ascorbic acid is a great antioxidant and helps protect the body against free radicals released during exercise and dieting.
Ephedra Free Formula

https://www.anabolicfitness.net/affiliate/images/ingred.jpg

[Meg_S]

I can't attest to the fat burning properties of thermorexin. I had it over the summer and in Germany months this year and they were NOT diet and exercise months. I will say though that it really helps me focus. I'm pretty bad when it comes to concentration, unless it's something I'm truly interested (mostly not things essential to living) Great energy and concentration, no excited or worked up feelings.

Just wanted to throw a few new products in the bank

[hcomeau]

So Trainer Dan, do you suggest Ripped Fuel as the best over the counter stack? I don't have any issues with my heart or thyroid etc... This is my third time trying Atkins and all the other times my cravings and portions did me in. I currently take Basic 3, Essential Oils and Dieter's Advantage. I started induction cheat free one week ago.

Is Ripped Fuel ok for induction? I know that my local walmart carries this supplement so it can't be that expensive.

[mrschmelz]

no our government is careful about protecting my health and has duly banned ephedrine in all shapes sizes and forms

Add the United States as a country that has now banned Ephedra. Personally, I am kind of upset. WHile I realize it has some serious risks, IMO that is only because of people not using it correctly/not knowing their FULL health before taking it.

[Meg_S]

Is it really completely banned? I bought some online the other day - at a normal, large, well known supplement store. Just straight E. I also bought some caffeine.

Does that mean I won't be able to order it online either soon?

I should stock up it that's the case ;)

[Meg_S]

1. We investigated the effects of the chronic administration of a sympathomimetic agent on energy expenditure, protein metabolism and levels of thyroid hormones and catecholamines in 10 obese subjects after a 6-week very-low-calorie-diet programme (1965 kJ, 60 g of protein, 45 g of carbohydrates). L-(-)-Ephedrine hydrochloride (50 mg three times a day by mouth) or placebo were administered during 2-week periods (weeks 2-5 of the VLCD programme) in a randomized, double-blind, cross-over design. Five subjects began with ephedrine and five with placebo. 2. The results were analysed separately in the two groups. No difference was found between them as regards weight loss during the very-low-calorie diet and drug treatments. Conversely, ephedrine therapy induced a significantly lower daily urinary excretion of nitrogen (and, consequently, a better nitrogen balance) with respect to placebo, independently of the drug sequence. Daily urinary levels of 3-methylhistidine during ephedrine and placebo treatments were similar. The fasting resting metabolic rate (oxygen consumption, ml STP/min) fell significantly during the very-low-calorie diet in both groups, but this effect was partially and significantly prevented by administration of ephedrine. Diet therapy significantly reduced 24 h urine levels of vanillylmandelic acid and homovanillic acid, which, however, increased to pretreatment values during ephedrine treatment. No significant effects were shown on 24 h urinary concentrations of adrenaline, noradrenaline and dopamine during the very-low-calorie diet and/or ephedrine treatment.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

[Trainerdan]

Good info Meg ... Proof that eph does improve nitrogen retention, as well as prevents the drop in resting metabolism normally brought on by lowering cals.

[Meg_S]

<cheering> now I don't have to feel so guilty for popping pills. For some reason taking EC makes me feel really guilty! Why? I don't know. Popping secret pills to "get skinny" LOL

I never believed they did anything for (my) weight loss, I just liked the energy. Now I know they're helping w/ LMB.

:) :) :)

[Janette360]

I too love taking ephedrin products. They has always worked wonders for me. I take it before my workout because they can be pretty intence and i need the energy. I am so dissappointed that they are banned. I can't find them anywhere. Can anyone help me!

[Meg_S]

I make my own stack.. buy plain E and plain C
I don't care about the aspirin, and prefer to drink green tea.

You can get both E and C at an excellent price at.. canI spell out websites on here?

www.*ody*uilding.com (http://www.*ody*uilding.com) you can guess what the * letter are....

[Janette360]

Thanks for your reply! Why do you make your own verses buying a premixed one? Oh, and congrats on your weight loss!

[Meg_S]

when it comes to EC stacks, (rather than ones with guggul or glucorell etc) it's the E and C that are the ingredients that count. Most companies put a lot of other things in that may or may not help.. but usually in quantities that dont make a difference, and then charge WAY more than what I pay just mixing my own. Plus - I don't need any vitamins which may be helpful, like chromium or B vitamins because I have an excellent multivitamin. I also don't need green tea - which can be helpful because I like to drink it. It just boils down to price.

Plus some of the thermos I find don't even give me the kick for my workout - which is the point of taking them! For me anyway, other people don't like it. I have a high tolerance to caffeine and stims though.

[Meg_S]

Just a note... APPARENTLY ephedrine hcl, which is the synthesized form of ephedra will still be widely available, but not able to be marketed as a fat burner... However, the way things are going I wouldn't be so sure that it will become harder to get as well.. though it will always be avail. on the black market as pharmacists buy it in bulk.

I ordered a pile of it today anyway.

[MyJourney]

I have the EAS BetaLean with Ephedra and the one without ephedra... I used to take ECA stacks and had great success on it but now I have been nervous about the ephedra one even though I want to take it.

I called them a while back to ask questions and they told me they dont make it anymore.

The ingredients are

Calcium from Calcium Carbonate 360 mg
Chromium from (Chromium Polynicotinate) 150 mg- Whats that?

Green Tea Leaf Extract -
50% Polyphenols, 150 mg; 35% catechins, 105 mg; 9% Epigallocatechin Gallate (EGCG) 27 mg 300mg

Ma Huang (stem, Ephedra sinica) 250mg
8% ephedra alkaloids, 20mg

Proprietary Blend-

L-tyrosine, potassium phosphate, white willow bark, L-Carnitine-tartrate 225 mg

Caffeine (from caffeine anhydrous, green tea leaf) 200 mg

Naringin (from grapefruit) 75 mg


I dont know what all those things are, but it doesnt seem like it would be more harmful than the ECA I used to take.

[VicW]

Marla Duncan was in absolutely fantastic shape for years before any of the theromgenics were on the market. I don't know when her before pictures were taken but it was long before thermogenits.
I did the old ECA stack in the mid 1980's and it worked but it does not do magic. In my Dr's opinion (who I work out with) he feels the old ECA was a more effective and safer combination than any of the current formulas. Personaly, I like the Universal Animal product 'cuts' based on availability of today's product.

[katlynweb]

I bought a bottle of this (with E) before the ban. Just recently decided to try them. I would like to know what to expect. How should I feel? What are danger signs to watch for (I already know the heart rate problems and am aware of the dangers of the product). I took them for 2 days and felt...NOTHING....can someone tell me what I SHOULD be feeling? How many to take and when to take them. Thanks!

[whatsupdoc]

I've taken Xenadrine EFT without ephedra and don't feel it helped much. Then I took Xenadrine RFA-1 wiht ephedra but had to stop taking it b/c my heart would race and my heart would beat too fast when working out.

all the bodybuilders use the ECA stack and ephedra is supposed to be the #1 fatburner. But, I would use ephedra with caution.

[whatsupdoc]

Also check to see how much ephedra is contained in your product. Apparently, Xenadrine RFA-1 was one of the more potent products.

[killamira]

i read about 10 pages of this post *whew! *and hadn't seen a reply or question like mine. So forgive if I am repeating something
Where I live they have pretty much taken all ephedra products off the shelves. Although you can buy plain ephedra. Only thing it has 375 mg in one pill. Is that too much of a dose??

[fridayeyes]

Killa - that 375 is the amount of the herb. You need to find something that says "standardized to 5% ephedra alkaloids" and do the math (375 x .05), or sometimes it will say '20 mg ephedra alkaloids." You shouldn't take more than 100 mg per day, and unless you're used to it and have a good tolerance, not more than 50 in one dose. I'd say to start at no more than 20. If your bottle has 25 mg in one pill, start with *one.*

Cheers,

Friday

[copperfish]

Dan can you give me the formula for the ECA Stack? Xenadrine has quit putting ephedrine in their product and I have taken it for years with success. Please reply to nlturner~pcmagic since I have not learned to navigate in the lowcarbforum yet and am afraid I will miss your answer.

[copperfish]

Can you tell me where you purchased your ECA? I am having trouble finding it. I have tons of the Xenadrine 'Ephedrine Free' and I do not like it. Thanks nlturner~pcmagic.net be sure to put lowcarb on the subject line.

[Trainerdan]

It's been banned, but you can find it on some sites still selling leftovers I'm sure.

Let me poke around and see what I can find ... I need to get more anyway. :)

[jagbender]

http://www.1fast400.com/?products_id=50
http://www.1fast400.com/?products_id=48
Here you go
Jag

[legwarmers]

ephedrine hcl is legal as a nasal decongestant... if combined with a cup of coffee you're good to go. i started at 16mg and when my body adjusted i settled at the 24mg. i just drink with coffee.

[skibunnie]

Ephedra was made illegal wasnt it?

[Trainerdan]

not illegal

[bfdzio]

Ok, so i'm going in for a physical checkup on my overall health soon hopefully, if I asked him to check me up to find out if taking a ephedra hcl 20mg+caffeine 200mg was safe for me, would he be able to tell me?

Also, it is a ECA stack..but i've always wondered, what purpose does the aspirin hold? how many mg's of aspirin should you take?

Also...if I start taking ephedra in the morning 20mg, wash it down with coffee, I usually have about 3 cups in the morning, should I skip the caffeine the rest of the day?

[Meg_S]

be careful with caffeine intake.. you don't know how much you can handle on top of your homemade stack. Btw, I purchase mine from that site listed below too :) Cut out the excess until you know how your body will react. If your coffee is very strong 1 cup should suffice in the morning - the ephedra will give you more than enough of a buzz to compensate for skipping the other two. If it's weak (most american coffee) more than 1 cup might work.

Your physician will probably be able to tell you, but be prepared.. he may say it's not safe just as a general rule. I'm not sure how open minded or informed he is. Most people seem to consider ephedra dangerous and deadly and if you so much as sniff a bottle you'll be going into cardiac arrest and all kinds of wonderful things.

[legwarmers]

the aspirin is useless... skip it :)

"Aspirin {salicyclic acid acetate} and its naturally occurring methyl ester (methyl salicylate)—found in the leaves of Gaultheria procumbrens and on the bark of Betula lenta—have long been used as analgesics, anti-inflammatories, antipyretics and recently as anti-coagulants. The "A" portion of ECA, aspirin has been thought of potentiating the thermogenic and lipolytic properties of both ephedrine and caffeine. Recent research seems to contradict this however. At a study at The University of London's Department of Nutrition and Dietetics, 40 women (20 non-obese and 20 obese) were given either ephedrine and caffeine (30 mg and 100 mg) or ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin (30 mg, 100 mg, and 300 mg) post prandially (1050 kJ liquid meal). Using indirect calorimetry, observations were made in all groups every 30 minutes for 160 minutes. There was no significant differences between the groups that received aspirin and the groups that did not. We conclude that aspirin does not potentiate the acute thermic effect of ephedrine and caffeine.6

In another study conducted at King's College in London, it was demonstrated that aspirin does not potentiate the thermogenic response to ephedrine in lean women and only slightly so in obese women.7 The increase seen in this study represented a 1.2 kcal per hour increase in metabolism for lean women and a 2.4 kcal per hour increase in metabolism in obese women over use of ephedrine alone, which over an entire week, would represent less than one ounce of bodyweight. We feel that this is insignificant.7

Based on these two studies, we feel that aspirin and its analogs do not play a substantial role in inducing or increasing thermogenesis and/or lipolysis but they do have the potential to induce SAEs when consumed over long periods of time (e.g. ulceration of the stomach and increases in bleeding times). Therefore, we feel that aspirin and it's analogs should not be used in any thermogenic/lipolytic stack. "

The Ultimate ECA Guide
By Stephen Schmitz, MD, MPH
and Bruce Kneller, BSN-RN

References

1) Goodman and Gillman, The Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics, Ninth Edition, p.221.
2) FDA New Final Rule Regarding Serious Adverse Events (effective 04/06/9.
3) Office of Special Nutritionals: Market Review of Dietary Supplements Containing Ephedrine Alkaloids, August 27, 1996.
4) Lak CR, Rosenberg DB, Gallant S, et al. Phenylpropanolamine Increases Plasma Caffeine Levels. Clinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics, 1990;47:675-684.
5) Federal Register, Vol. 62(107). 21 CFR Part 111, Dietary Supplements Containing Ephedrine Alkaloids, Proposed Rule.
6) Horton TJ, Geissler CA. Post-prandial Thermogenesis with Ephedrine, Caffeine and Aspirin in Lean, Predisposed Obese and Non-obese women. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disorder, 1996 Feb;20(2):91-95.
7) Horton TJ, Geissler CA. Aspirin Potentiates the Effect of Ephedrine on the Thermogenic Response to a Meal in Obese but not Lean Women. Int J Obes, 1991 May;15(5):359-366.
Kucio C, Jonderko K, Piskorska D. Does Yohimbine Act as a Slimming Drug? Isr J Med Sci 1991 Oct:27(10):550-556.9) Galitzky J, Vermorel M, Lafontan M, Montastruc P. Thermogenic and Lipolytic Effect of Yohimbine in the Dog. Br J Pharmacol 1991 Oct;104(2):514-518.
10) Berlan M, Galitzky J, et al. Plasma Catecholamine Levels and Lipid Mobilization Induced by Yohimbine in Obese and Non-obese Women. Int J Obes 1991 May;15(5):305-315.
11) Hull KM, Maher TJ. Effects of L-tyrosine on Mixed Acting Sympathomimetic-induced Pressor Actions. Pharmacol Biochem Behav 1992 Dec;43(4):1047-1052.
12) Kull KM, Maher TJ. L-tyrosine Fails to Potentiate Several Peripheral Actions of the Sympathomimetics. 1991 Jul;39(3):755-759.
13) Wellman PJ, Marmon MM. Comparison on Brown Adipose Tissue Thermogenesis Induced by Congeners and Isomers of Phenylpropanolamine. Life Sci 1985 Sep 16;37(11):1023-1028.
14) Wellman PJ, Sellers TL. Weight Loss Induced by Chronic Phenylpropanolamine: Anorexia and Brown Adipose Tissue Thermogenesis. Pharmacol Biochem Behav 1986 Mar;24(3):605-611.
15) Welman, PJ, Marmon MM. Synergism Between Caffeine and DL-Phenylpropanolamine on Brown Adipose Tissue in the Adult Rat. Pharmacol Biochem Behav 1985 May;22(5):781-78.

[Trainerdan]

Ohhh .. Lookie lookie ... Meg is here. ;)

Good post Legs ... I was gonna just say "Drop the A" ... you had to go and take it to class on us. :)

[gnovi]

Dan (or anyone! :) ) - I am hoping that you might be able to help me out with the ECA stack, I have perused countless pages of this thread but I guess didn't come to any clear conclusions. I am taking Hydroxycut now, was taking Xenadrine EFX, but have become quite disillusioned with their effects as opposed to when I was on Xenadrine RFA-1 years ago. Basically I am just trying to boil down the exact things I need for the stack and make sure I understand the correct dosages.

Here are the products I've come up with for it:

Mega-Pro VasoPro
-with this product though is it actually 25mg of ephedra? As it states 25mg ephedrine HCl. And what is Guaifenesin?
Maximum Nutrients Caffeine - 200mg

I read that it should generally be a 20mg ephedra/200mg caffeine mixture, is 25/200 just as fine? Are those products ones you'd recommend for the ECA stack? Any better ones? No stores around me sell ephedrine HCl so I am looking at buying online. And taking legwarmers' post into account, aspirin is a pointless (and potentially dangerous) component of the ECA stack?

But if those products are correct, I would then take one dosage of VasoPro and Caffeine 200mg, up to three times daily for a proper stack?

Also how do you feel about the use of Green Tea extract in addition to the ECA stack? I was recommended the Green Tea extract which has 220mg EGCG, decaffeinated.

Thank you SOO much for any help in advance, I just wanted to make sure I have all of this correct before I go spending the little money I have on this... lol.

[Trainerdan]

25/200 is good. :)

Guafenesin is a component that they put with the Ephedrine Hcl so that it can assist in its use as a broncodialator, for those with asthma. It's also there so that meth labs can't use straight ephedrine hcl to make meth.

[Mishal]

Hey Trainerdan,

I'm new to the forums - I read through the entire posting for this thread, and I am thankful to you and the others for all the knowledge.
However, I was wondering if I could ask you a couple of questions.

I am on atkins right now - I am taking Xenadrine EFX - but I can't swallow pills (gag reflex) - so what I do is open the capsules and put them in low carb yogurt and take them that way. I've gotten used to the wretched taste by now! Cytodyne said that there are no downsides to taking out without the capsule - any ideas? btw - I do a 5 day 4 pill full dosage, 2 days off

I work out on the eliptical, and am doing light weight training 5-6 times a week in addition to all this. I'm really focused on losing my weight - I know both cardio and weight training are good in their own rights, so I'm doing 30 mins of weights, and 20 mins on the eliptical (2 miles) 5-6 times a day. When I do the eliptical - I tend to work hard, and my heart rate goes up to around 160-180 (EFX may play a part in this). Does this sound like a good plan?

I am also consuming less than 15 grams of carbs a day - which I plan to do for 7 weeks, and am drinking 4 liters of water a day.

I was interested in CLA - can I take these along with Xenadrine EFX or would you think that Atkins, excersize, and EFX are enough - I need to burn fat off my stomuch, and CLA sounds promising. What brand would you recommend (you can PM with this if you'd prefer).

I am 21 years old, and a male, so I feel with hard work, and diet (along with enhancers like EFX) I can lose my weight fast and effectivly - 40 pounds.

I would greatly appreciate any help - I'm trying to lose as much weight as I can, and I'm willing to work hard, and take supplements. I hope you can help me out on my questions! thanks alot!

One more things (edit) - any tips for losing a double chin, anyone?
Also, do you know of anyplace that I can still get Xenadrine EFA (with Epehdra)?

Mishal

[bfdzio]

If I may contribute my own opinion... if you say you are doing 20 mins on the elliptical 5-6 times a day, I would say you are doing too much cardio. In addition, increase your water uptake, especially considering you are taking a thermogenic, even though it has no ephedrine.

I have not read all these threads, but from the rumblings, the new ephedra free versions of the thermogenics from a few years ago are now useless. That includes Xenadrine EFX.

The Xenadrine with Ephedra was Xenadrine RFA-1 I believe, which you can no longer buy. As for the double chin, be patient, it will be gone. I'll tell you for me, my face fat and double chin were the first to go..as with a lot of people. So hang in there, few more pounds and you'll notice the change.

Thought i'd offer my opinion, but i'm not trainer..so with that in mind *cough* TrainerDan *cough*

[Built]

Green tea is great with or without stack. Drink it all day long. It's just good for you.

Okay, for entertainment purposes only...

Ephedra is the plant version of Ephedrine HCL. I don't trust plant sources in general - too much dosing variability. Ephedrine HCL is standardized.

Now, the ratios of E:C:A are 10 parts C to 1 part E, with or without a baby or low-dose (one quarter of a regular strength) aspirin.

In Canada, you can still legally buy over the internet and in some supplement stores Ephedrine HCL in 8 mg tablets.

So, if you stack 3 of the 8 mg pills (24 mg of ephedrine HCL) with 250 mg caffeine (2 and a half wakeups) and low-dose aspirin (or a quarter of a regular aspirin), you have the typical E:C:A ratio that many find they can safely take 3 times a day.

The ratios are NOT strict - you might fine that 2 ephedrine with one wakeup (16 mg ephedrine with 100 mg caffeine) is easier than trying to break up the wakeups. Think of the ratios as guidelines, rather than a strict recipe.

A word of warning about aspirin: if you take a lot of aspirin, you will bruise really easily. You might also get ringing in your ears. And if you don't take the enteric coated kind, it's really hard on your stomach. Many stacks have a WHOLE aspirin three times a day. A QUARTER of an aspirin 3 times a day won't hurt you. But 3 aspirin a day and I started seeing bruises all over myself from NOTHING. It really freaked me out.

Still being entertaining, I would further suggest to anyone starting that they titrate the dose up from a single 8 mg Ephedrine HCL and a strong cup of coffee or tea to see how it affects you. Some folks get jittery from the stuff, but mostly, that's the effect of the caffeine.

And do the same thing when weaning yourself off - you CAN just stop and be sleepy and lethargicfor a few days, or gradually cut the dose of the E while keeping the C a the same amount. Then gradually cut down on the caffeine until you are back to "normal".

[copperfish]

I am just totally impressed by the willingness of eveyone to help. Thanks to all who responded to my distress call. I did find Ephedrine, thanks JagBender and a special thanks for all others who responded. It is terrific.

[Trainerdan]

Mishal,

I am assuming you meant 5 - 6 times per week on the elliptical? ;)

[Mishal]

Hey guys
Thanks alot for the help!
Yeah, I meant 5-6 times a week! :)

So does anyone have any ideas to the remaining questions listed above?
I really appreicate the help!
So Xenadrine EFX is a waste of my time?

Thanks!
Mishal

PS - one more thing - do cutting gels work?

[Mishal]

Thanks bfdzio,

I have a question for you - what would work better - A CKD like you're doing, or a stict permanent induction diet? I dont mind not eating no carbs for 2 mths - but difficulty aside, which one of these would work better?
Im really impressed - you lost a s***load of weight, exactly what I need to do! :)

Thanks

[bfdzio]

From what i've heard they are..

TrainerDan- What about the use of alcohol when taking Ephedrine HCL and Caffeine? In addition, do you take this 7 days a week, or do you stop when you are loading...?

[Built]

Thanks bfdzio,

I have a question for you - what would work better - A CKD like you're doing, or a stict permanent induction diet? I dont mind not eating no carbs for 2 mths - but difficulty aside, which one of these would work better?
Im really impressed - you lost a s***load of weight, exactly what I need to do! :)

Thanks

I'm not bfdzio, but...

My feeling is to stick with induction until you begin to slow down (indicating your thyroid has slowed down), and then do something to kick start it, which means strategic carb refeeds (and heavy lifting, of course!)

- Built

[bfdzio]

^^ Exactly what Built said...I dieted down to this weight, sacrificing muscle in the process. Even though I am not at and beyond my original goal of 170, I am now trying to get my weight back up in lean mass. In order to do this, I needed to install a carbohydrate loading period on the weekends for muscle development while I diet during the weeks for fat loss.

So far, I've been following it rather "dirty" like, but i'm doing my best. I've probably had more fat than reccomended on the weekends, thats all. I however did remeasure myself, and after 4 weeks, I am down 1/2 inch around my abdomen, and up 1/2-1 inch just below my ribcage, which means i'm beginning to fill out my form (before, I was more underweight and muscle-less that at the bottom of my ribs, my stomach dipped inward a little..now its a smooth transition).

[jagbender]

Mishal
CKDor TKD if you are lifting is recommended. I did LC induction for about 14 months. I started CKD about 7 weeks ago. I have seen good results after tweaking the carb up cycle to 24 hours. I have been doing the NHE carb up meals for three weeks now. I am still losing a pound a week and making great progress with my lifting.
I bench pressed 300 pounds 7 reps Saturday. That was the most reps at that weight ever.
Like Built indicated continuous LC will slow your metabolism and deplete glycogen. The carb ups kick up your metabolism and replenish glycogen levels.
Remember to keep fat and protein low and carbs high on t carb up. Please read CKD 101 at the beginning of this forum for more info.
There are a few good books we can recommend also.

Jag

[bfdzio]

What is the exact amount of protein reccomended on the carb up? I was going through old posts, and some people said they used protein bars as their main meals during the carb up.

I also ask because on my carbup, I used a lot of fat free milk and cereal..which gave me a good amount of protein.

[Built]

What is the exact amount of protein reccomended on the carb up? I was going through old posts, and some people said they used protein bars as their main meals during the carb up.

I also ask because on my carbup, I used a lot of fat free milk and cereal..which gave me a good amount of protein.

Go to the first page of my journal. I put in the link that breaks down the NHE bulk and cut versions of the diet. There you will find the ratios that you seek.

:)

- Built

[bfdzio]

Thanks.

By the way...still looking for the answer to the question about E/C stack and alcohol. I tend to have a drink or two on the weekends, nothing excessive unless I've got a reason to celebrate :)

[Built]

I drink less than you do, but the odd time I've had a couple of drinks on stack, I haven't had any trouble.

[clgrein]

What to do now that Ephedra is banned? Are there still products on the market with this? I have used it before and love the energy feeling. Any suggestions to still finding similar items? I tried ephedra hydroxy cut... Didn't work.

[Trainerdan]

I am off of alcohol for the next 12 weeks ... but when I did take EC, there were times I am sure when I overlapped drinking with EC.

I did notice I got red faster, but that isn't saying much. LOL. I flush pretty easy (Irish + Ukranian = Not alot of pigmentation).

[jagbender]

I don't see a problem with mixing alcohol and E/C.

[jagbender]

clgrein,
Vaspro Ephedrine hcl is available at
http://www.1fast400.com/?products_id=50

Jag

[bfdzio]

I flush pretty easy (Irish + Ukranian = Not alot of pigmentation).

Hah...same here, i'm 50% Irish, 50% Brazilian....You would think that I would get a combo between my fathers dark Brazilian skin and my mothers pasty Irishness, but nope.....Pure white, never tan, just turn red.

[Built]

Oh cool - so I'm not the only one who has to stay away from 100 watt light bulbs!

[Meg_S]

(laughing) count me into the whitey club! Sometimes I feel like a mutant around here, everyones seems to have a dark tan... and they look at me as if I'm commiting a cardinal sin for being white. I am grateful for Neutrogena foam on a regular basis.


btw, I've used EC and drank.. no problem there.

[jagbender]

I can't wait till the end of summer. I have a little indian in me
I'll get tan enough for all of you ghosts!
Built 100 watt bulb! LMAO.

Jag

[Built]

Cool, so we're all fish-belly-white ('cept for Jag!) pill-poppin' drunks.

I'm so glad I've finally found my peeps!

;)

And Jag, for the record, there's rumours of a smidge of Mohawk blood in our family (and it shows in my Mum's lovely olive skin), but let's just say this white-girl won't be trying for status...my husband looked at the burn I got from being out in the sun for about 15 minutes and remarked "Does it pretty much just rain constantly in Scotland?"

<sigh!>

:lol:

[Trainerdan]

I carry Sportblock 45 in my car. :)

[Built]

I have a collection of hats since I had precancerous lesions on my nose two summers ago.

I don't care.

Hats are ELEGANT <she sniffed!>
;)

[Trainerdan]

I am grateful for Neutrogena foam on a regular basis.

Wow Meg, I never pegged you for a foam girl. :) Until my tanning actually browns me up, I have taken to the 6 second spray tan booth. Hopefully I won't need to keep that up much longer.

[jagbender]

Some of the things we talk about here!
:)

Jag

[bassgirl]

Boy do I feel lucky. I flash tan - 10 min in the sun and I'm golden (thanks to mediterrenian parents:))

Anyhoo, I just finished reading this entire thread, whew.
I've tried a bunch of ECA's over the years, and some E free.

E free stuff I tried was a waste of money (Lean System 7, SAN Tight)
My personal favorite was VPX's Liquid Clenbutrx (which doesn't exist anymore)

I just oredered a bottle of VPX's Meltdown z-14. It sounds pretty good for what's available.
Anyone hear anything good or bad?

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/vpx/meltz.html

[bfdzio]

Maybe somebody can explain, most the ingredients on the list I do not recognize from other fatburners.

Container Size: 60 Capsules
Serving Size: 2 Capsules
Servings Per Container: 30

Container Size: 120 Capsules
Serving Size: 2 Capsules
Servings Per Container: 60

Amount Per Serving:

Caffeine Anhydrous: 200mg
Octopamine: 150mg
Coleus Forskohlii: 100mg
Tyramine: 75mg
Hordenine: 50mg
Citrus Aurantium: ~ 95% Synephrine 50mg
Evodiamine: 38mg
5-Methoxytryptamine: 25mg
Vinpocetine: 20mg
Rutaecarpine: 10mg
Hydroxyevodiamine: 5mg
Diiodotyrosine: 150mcg


Other Ingredients:
Gelatin, Cellulose.

Directions: Begin use with 1-2 capsules, two to three times daily to assess your tolerance. Never exceed 6 capsules daily or 2 capsules in a single dose. For best results use as a part of a moderate to low carbohydrate diet and exercise program. Sleeplessness may occur if taken too close to bedtime.

[Built]

Dunno about the others (other than the caffeine, of course, which can help mobilize fat stores), but Coleus Forskohlii is an Ayurvedic decongestant that did NOTHING for me, and Citrus Aurantium gave me the jitters so bad I stopped taking it. And I take ephedrine with no problems.

If it was me, I wouldn't waste my time on this product.

My .02

[bfdzio]

I have a bottle of Xenadrine RFA-1 and it says a serving is 2 pills, and each serving had 6mg ephedrine. That makes 12mg...Why does everyone else on here (cept Built) reccomend 20-25?

Oh, and as for the fat burner, I assume SOMETHING that is better than ephedra will come along someday, but before it got banned, I never believed any fatburners worked anyway. I think it had something to do with the ridiculous photos.

[bassgirl]

Built,

This is a bitt off topic, but I remember reading in a previos post that when you run, you actually gain weight. I have the same problem. I do weights (3x wk) and when I throw running in there to accelerate the fat loss, I stall, or gain some. But, I can lose just fine with weights and no cardio.
Have you found any reasoning to this? Do you do do any other cardio that may be effective?

Thanks :)

[bfdzio]

Its water I believe, your muscles in your body are holding onto it more when you exercise I think.

[bassgirl]

Really?
But why only with running?

[bfdzio]

I really do not know. I'd leave the proper answer to Built or TrainerDan, as i'm still educating myself as much as possible.

All I can promise is that is probably is not fat, and is in fact water. Why..I do not know for sure, but that was my guess.

[Chipperoo]

I have a bottle of Xenadrine RFA-1 and it says a serving is 2 pills, and each serving had 6mg ephedrine. That makes 12mg...Why does everyone else on here (cept Built) reccomend 20-25?


Pretty good explanation towards bottom of this page:http://www.drumlib.com/dp/000006.htm

[bfdzio]

Anecdotally, however, 20-25 mg ephedrine and 200 mg of caffeine seems to work quite well for most obese people.

I'm not obese though, and neither are most the people on this board. Do you still feel 20-25 is safe?

[bfdzio]

Oh, nevermind, read further........ :)

[Chipperoo]

Well, it says the studys were NOT done on obese persons, but that it seems to work well for most everyone. I have quite tolerance for stimulants and take just a bit more than most people, though not what I believe is an unsafe amount. I've read many places that 100mg of e per day is max safe dosage. I take 25/200 E/C three times a day and often take 50/200 for my midday dosage. I'm not one of the people that have EVER gotten any kink of "rush" of anything from E.

[Built]

I really do not know. I'd leave the proper answer to Built or TrainerDan, as i'm still educating myself as much as possible.

All I can promise is that is probably is not fat, and is in fact water. Why..I do not know for sure, but that was my guess.

I gained 30 pounds in two years running 10k 3x a week.

It seemed to stimlate my appetite while being catabolic to muscle tissue.

I do SOME cardio now, but I focus on diet and lifting for weight control.

There seem to be "optimal" levels of cardio that vary from person to person. For me, a couple of good hard bike rides a week, some walking, and maybe a couple of sessions of HIIT a week seem to be optimal.

Back to the dosing issue - I like to take smaller doses more frequently than three larger hits.

Plus, I'm a woman - I'm smaller than you, so I take a little bit less than you.

:)

[Chipperoo]

Built, you're doing the e dosing the best way there is to do it. Taking smaller doses every two hours is probably the best way to take e, as it keeps the level of it in your blood more consistent. Only reason I don't do it is 'cause you would have to do all that pill splitting and too hard to make the time to take something every TWO hours :) , but if you're willling to do that, it is the BEST way.

[skibunnie]

what is the difference between ephedrine and ephedra?

[Built]

Ephedra is the plant, ephedrine hcl is the drug. The drug is the one I trust - it's standardized. The plant extracts very tremendously on the dosing.

[copperfish]

I have a whole lot of Xenadrine EFX Ephedrine Free and I am thinking of taking it and just adding Ephedrine myself. Do you suppose that would be as effective as Xenadrine RFA-1 which has 335 mg Ma Huang? I found Xenadrine RFA-1 to be very effective for me. Curbed my appetite big time.

[skibunnie]

where do you purchase this stuff?

[bfdzio]

copperfish - I would just purchase some ephedrine and some caffeine. It will cost you about $14 total. Reason I say this is because of all extra junk they put into the EFX in order to create a ephedra like effect, i.e. the synephrine HCL I believe.

PS: Change your diet plan from "adkins" to "atkins" ...writing it with a D is my biggest pet peeve that people do! :lol:

skibunnie - The only place I know you can get ephedrine HCL is 1fast400.com, they have Vasapro Ephedrine still, but some stores may carry it (hard to find though, but it is legal). Additionally, all the other fat burners can be bought almost anywhere, at any pharmacy.

[Chipperoo]

And if you don't want to wait for the ephedrine to come in from ordering it, you can get some at most any convenience store to hold you over. Much cheaper to order from 1fast400 though. And fairly cheap caffiene can be had at WalMart.

[copperfish]

copperfish - I would just purchase some ephedrine and some caffeine. It will cost you about $14 total. Reason I say this is because of all extra junk they put into the EFX in order to create a ephedra like effect, i.e. the synephrine HCL I believe.

PS: Change your diet plan from "adkins" to "atkins" ...writing it with a D is my biggest pet peeve that people do! :lol:

skibunnie - The only place I know you can get ephedrine HCL is 1fast400.com, they have Vasapro Ephedrine still, but some stores may carry it (hard to find though, but it is legal). Additionally, all the other fat burners can be bought almost anywhere, at any pharmacy.
WalMart here I come and I promise that I will NEVER say Adkins again. I had to do a word association thang and it is copperfish~yahoo.com so I associate that with ATkins~ATkins. Does that make sense to you? Thanks to all for the help. I appreciate you all.

[tank5863]

I'm on Avapro for hypertension and my hp is around 120/75, but before I started LC'ing it was usually 140/85.
Is there anything I can use to help take off weight?

Thanks
Tony

[tank5863]

That should be bp instead of hp.

[Meg_S]

Tank...do you consume caffeine?

If you want help, be absoloutely anal about tracking your food, do not put a single bite in your mouth that does not belong there, do what works for you in terms of calories and use the stimulants (caffeine only, avoid eph) only for energy because of a caloric deficit. If you're on meds for high bloods pressure it's probably more important that you get your body into a healthy condition (talking bodyfat % here) than it is for you to be jacked up on stimulants for a minute increase in metabolism.
Increasing physical fitness also does a LOT for your bp.
Green tea is excellent, look it up on the net and on here - but it has caffeine, l-carnitine can be useful as well.

[tank5863]

I started out with Atkins with no results so I started the Cave Man diet and lost 8 pounds. Then I was reading about the Warrior Diet. I like to eat one big meal a day instead of eating all day. Seems when I eat breakfast I'm hungry all day. I am only working from 8 - 12 everyday so, I like to just have coffee in the morning then around 11:00 am I might eat an apple or orange or boiled eggs. Then around 1 pm have a salad, then 3 pm a big meal of protein and vegetables; maybe total of 1200-1500 calories. If I get hungry later I have some boiled eggs.
I'm confused on how many calories I am to eat a day. According to the 10 cal per pound body weight only that would be around 3000 calories a day just to be a vegetable????
Thanks
Tony

[Meg_S]

the 10 cal is a guideline, *I* think 3000 is way to much in most cases, regardless of weight. I'm sure some would disagree with me. If you're 300lbs of solid muscle at a low bodyfat %.. ok, I could see that. On the other hand, 1200-1500 seems low, but if you do not lose at a higher caloric intake... the only way to do so would be to increase both your muscle mass and activity.

Incidentally, to lose fat I eat similarly to you. I eat almost nothing in the mornings until 10-1 where a little peanut butter comes into play, and then a meal comes later. I also need to keep my calories down.

Do you exercise? I really think that as a male your cals should be higher than 1200, but like I said - if you don't lose... some weight training is probably in order.

take care,
Meg

[Trainerdan]

Tank,

The body does use a certain amount of energy just to sustain itself and function. This is called the base (basal) metabolic rate (BMR).

As for where your BMR is now, there are tests for it.

[tank5863]

I use to do Walk away the pounds 30 min. tape twice a day, but didn't loose any weight, so I thought I would quit exercises and concentrate on diet. That's when I lost the weight but I am starting to do a walking program where you go up and down with speed. Only going to do it 3 times a week to start. I might do some weights two days a week.
How much fat do you guys average eating a day?
Thanks for the info
Tony

[adukart]

I sweat real bad when taking E, is it alright just to take it before a workout and how much before, a half hour? Does anyone else sweat bad when taking E and is there anything I can do about it?

[Jalum]

TrainerDan, Built, and whomever else might be able to help. :)

My main source of exercise right now are 90-minute sessions of Bikram Yoga. For those unfamiliar, it's Hatha yoga, but it's done in a 95-105 degree room at 60% humidity. I've been doing it for years and love it.

I recieved my ephedrine and caffiene the other day, and have been taking 10mg/100mg twice a day and walking for 1-2 hours with no problematic side effects. Now, I'm a little hesitant about taking a thermogenic right before exercising in a sauna (essentially that's what it is). My purpose for taking the EC is to accelerate my fat loss, protect my muscle tissue, and motivate me to go to the Yoga Studio.

Should I be worried? Will the thermogenic + hotroom = stroke? I doubt this could happen, especially considering my low dosage. But better safe than sorry, and I figured it couldn't hurt to ask.

Thanks!

Jalum

[Built]

Since you're used to hot yoga, and you're only taking a tiny dose of stack, I personally wouldn't be worried about the combination. Just drink TONS of water, of course, but you already know that.

I take 4 times the daily dose you do (not all at once!), and I'm female and smaller than you. While everyBODY is indeed, different, your dose is small enough that I doubt you'd notice anything but easier breathing (ephedrine IS, after all, a decongestant).

But I'm not a doctor. I'm just offering up my .02 based on personal experience with exertion combined with heat.

[jamaicaker]

Has anyone taken Lean system 7? I have tried all the other products that I've seen posted here, however this gave me the most energy. I know cause I ran out of the product and haven't had the money available to purchase more. (trying to cut down on credit card bills) I usually order it online cause I can find it cheaper. hOwever, not if you order it from Great Britin (there currency is half of ours - you live you learn :).

Jamaica :wave:

[Phillip]

i was wondering if the new Ephedrine Free Hydroxycut works at all?

[Built]

From what I've heard, no.

[pookalee]

If you had to pick a brand of thermo, what kind would you use?

[clgrein]

No does not work, didn't give me even an ounce of energy!!! I started taking the max dose too! I did just purchase ripped fuel extreme.... LOVE IT it is also unfortunitly eph free, but it does work. Took two doses to kick in though!

[Built]

I make my own thermo:

Ephedrine HCL: 16mg (2 X 8 mg tabs)
Wakeups: 150 mg caffeine (one and a half tabs)
Daily low dose aspirin

I do mine as a low dose trickled through the day, but you can go higher. I think the max I ever took all at once was 32 mg E with 300 mg C. Too jittery for me, but for a larger person or a man, this might be the right dose. Start low, work up to your comfort level.

To back out of it, lower the dose of E first, then the C. Avoids excessive sleepyness and headaches that way.

[Phillip]

one thing that worked for me but is not a thermo... but is good if you're working out and trying to tone muscle mass and lose bf is NO2 www.getno2.com it's somewhat expensive but i also tried a stronger yet cheaper version.. Nitrox Extra.

[Built]

I've heard of this stuff - but didn't know if it DID anything.

Thanks!

[Meg_S]

Hi Philip, can you tell me more about your experience with NO2?
Sounds interesting.... like it might be good for athletic performance.

[Phillip]

well i noticed my endurance increased after sometime and after sometime my muscle tone would stay firm throughout the whole day which was a plus and i had more energy and after awhile i wouldn't get sore from workouts anymore... NO2 does alot.. it increases your slow and fast twitch muscle fibers.. it allow more oxygen to be delivered to the blood stream.. increases your cardiovascular system.. allows more bloood flow to not only the main muscles but also the small ones.. so all the nutrients from the food you eat gets distributed to every muscle in your body... and i was moving up on weights fairly quick..personally i think NO2 may have been a little better then Nitrox Extra.. it goes fairly nice with the atkins diet as well.. there is alot of information about NO2 and what Nitric Oxide does for you.. it's also suppose to signal cells to use fat for fuel rather then glucose and it's suppose to oxidize certain fat cells to burn them away.. thing is with it is you have to have a good diet and drink plenty of water.

[legwarmers]

NO2 seems to work for some, but not others.

i don't think you can increase either fast or slow twitch muscles. it's a matter of training for the development of one over the other (ie: long distance running vs sprinting)

[Meg_S]

I read the site and it sounded great, and then went onto a place where I like to buy supplements and the overwhelming majority of reviews were negative....just posting what I saw.

[sln88]

I went to the fast400 site, and it shows out of stock

http://www.1fast400.com/?products_id=193

Ephedrine 25 100 Capsules/25 mg $12.99

Out of Stock


Is this what you guys are ordering?

thanks

[Chipperoo]

Actually, no, this here (http://www.1fast400.com/?products_id=50&osCsid=da967b5c630cd004525365e68d693337http://) is what most get, but for some reason when I looked it was very HARD to find on their site right now, it was only listed in the "best sellers" section, as far as I could tell.

[realdeal31]

Something a bit less straining on the system that works has well is Xenedrine Ephedra free, man this thing is a bomb. And even if its ephedra free it works has well.

[Built]

Okay, realdeal - you're the first person I've heard say this. Good to know it works for some people.

What's the active ingredient? Is it synephrine?

[copperfish]

I just ordered some: Vasopro Ephedrine HCl 60 Tablets/25 mg $7.00

http://www.1fast400.com/?products_id=50

[copperfish]

I made a slight error. I ordered mine from Rocky Mountain Sports Nutrition LLC
www.DiscountAnabolics.com
60 tabs for 6.95 25 mg

[Carbinat0r]

I get mine from http://www.sndcanada.com/gc/gc_item.exe?F=D&K=AM-002&R=S%2Fephedrine&ID=07062236132421552154150&FF=S&FK=ephedrine&Z9=0


but only 8mg...expensive....
what is the

Guaifenesin
200mg

i am seeing on the other sites

[Jamori]

I'm looking to get some ephedrine as well, but it doesnt seem like i should be taking the Guaifenesin incorporated into all the sources i've seen: why take a decongestant if i dont need it?

can someone clear up what exactly it does along with any side effects, and if it's okay to take the guaifenesin along with ec?

[Carbinat0r]

I read lots of people saying you can get it (higher than 8mg) in canada if u know where to look....well...TELL ME WHERE..lol...PM me!...this 8mg 50pills...is tooooo expensive.....

[nyep]

This is kinda off topic. Sorry for the Noob post.

Will Vasopro Ephedrine HCl work w/ Hydroxycut Ephedra free? I hate coffee. Im not a big coffee drinker. I just figured, since Hydroxycut is Caffeine based, could it work ok with the missing ingredient?

Any feedback would be very appreciated.

[Built]

Why not just take ephedrine with wakeups? That's what I do. I hate coffee too.

[nyep]

I appreciate ur response.

[Meg_S]

agreed.. coffee can be a pain when you're in a hurry too.

You can get 1 or 200 capsules of 200mg caffeine from both the site listed below for the vasopro, and at bodybuilding.com, the bb.com is really cheap, like 5.95 or something ridiculous when I ordered. (close to Christmas)

[Meg_S]

I have a question for some of the more experienced....long term fitness people. I've been "off" E for about 2.5 weeks now, I wanted to cut it out becuas I wasn't feeling anything from it and had been taking it "recreationally" eg: to get through school on 4 hrs sleep, to be able to breathe (asthma) when I worked out, and to just have more fun working out for a Looong time.

Anyway, I'm lethargic as hell. I feel stupid (brain fog), I'm always exhausted.. can barely get through the drive home, and all I want to do is sleep when I am home. ALL THE TIME!! I JUST WANT SLEEP.
I'll sit with my books and be physically unable to stay awake. So I'll nap (unintentionally) get up in a couple of hours and drag around until it's time to go to bed and then I thankfully will flop into it. Oh, and on the occasions that I will actually get out to exercise, my asthma goes crazy and I can't breathe.

I noticed that yesterday after taking a 1/2 dose of E in the morning I felt great, and nevermind when I took a whole on in the evening before the frisbee match!! I'm really tempted to take it again, but am worried about creating a more severe problem. However.....
a) I need to get on with my life and get my school done and NOT deteriorate into a fat blob but b) is something going to be seriously wrong with me if I don't go on a long term E break?

Any insight is appreciated.
Thanks!
Meg

[Built]

I think it's the caffeine. Start taking just the caffeine part of your stack for a bit. Then wean yourself off. And get more sleep.

:)