ketosis and BG level

[eddiemcm]

Like a lot of diabetics, I have the dawn phenomena.
My BG will be about 120 in the morning even though
it's typically about 95 when I go to bed.
I find that my BG does a lot better by lunch if I have
about a 30 gram carb breakfast.
My dilemma: I decided to try getting into ketosis for
3-4 weeks to lose about 10 pounds.When I do extreme
LC,my BG refuses to go under 115.Is this normal?
Eddie

[AuntJoyce]

how many carbs at each meal? Are you eating more than 3 meals a day? You should give it more than 3-4 weeks. Improving insulin sensitivity takes some time.

Any chance you are overeating protein? You might want to trim that back a little and if you are hungry, add some fat.

[dina1957]

Like a lot of diabetics, I have the dawn phenomena.
My BG will be about 120 in the morning even though
it's typically about 95 when I go to bed.
I find that my BG does a lot better by lunch if I have
about a 30 gram carb breakfast.
My dilemma: I decided to try getting into ketosis for
3-4 weeks to lose about 10 pounds.When I do extreme
LC,my BG refuses to go under 115.Is this normal?
Eddie
Normal for me, this is why I stay our of ketosis. I must eat carbs for BF or else...

[eddiemcm]

Aunt Joyce, Dina
I appreciate your replies.
Doesn't appear I can do ketosis but I think
I can probably keep my carb intake low
enough to lose weight by minimizing carbs in
lunch and dinner.
About ratio of protein to fat:I don't have a clue
what is best for a diabetic.
Living,learning...
Eddie

[dina1957]

Aunt Joyce, Dina
I appreciate your replies.
Doesn't appear I can do ketosis but I think
I can probably keep my carb intake low
enough to lose weight by minimizing carbs in
lunch and dinner.
About ratio of protein to fat:I don't have a clue
what is best for a diabetic.
Living,learning...
Eddie
I started losing weight again by cutting a little bit of fat from my meals, it is imporant to watch your calories if you are not in ketosis, or you will gain weight.
JMO

[Lisa N]

When I do extreme
LC,my BG refuses to go under 115.Is this normal?

Define 'extreme low carb'.

[AuntJoyce]

Eddie: at your weight of 180, the recommended amount of protein according to the Protein Power calcs is about 5-6 oz of meat per meal. And I found out when I actually measure it out, that is not much! My understanding is that excess protein gets metabolized into glucose.

So try limiting protein to that and as I mentioned, add in enough fat so that you get enough calories and energy. That's probably 2-4 TBS of butter, oil or mayonnaise. Just a rough guidline.

The other thing that may help is to eat only 3 meals a day with 4-5 hours between meals. No snacks.

And don't forget the exercise!

[RobLL]

Eddie: at your weight of 180, the recommended amount of protein according to the Protein Power calcs is about 5-6 oz of meat per meal. And I found out when I actually measure it out, that is not much! My understanding is that excess protein gets metabolized into glucose.

So try limiting protein to that and as I mentioned, add in enough fat so that you get enough calories and energy. That's probably 2-4 TBS of butter, oil or mayonnaise. Just a rough guidline.

The other thing that may help is to eat only 3 meals a day with 4-5 hours between meals. No snacks.

And don't forget the exercise!

What's this too much protein bit? yoiks. Does dawn phenomena go away if you use orals or insulin?

[eddiemcm]

"Define 'extreme low carb'."
Lisa
25 grams

[eddiemcm]

"What's this too much protein bit? yoiks. Does dawn phenomena go away if you use orals or insulin?"
I'm a bit confused by the protein thing myself.
I don't use insulin or prescription meds.
I depend on herbal and exercise.
Exercising in the morning helps a lot but my
glucose control doesn't work very well until
midday.

[RobLL]

"What's this too much protein bit? yoiks. Does dawn phenomena go away if you use orals or insulin?"
I'm a bit confused by the protein thing myself.
I don't use insulin or prescription meds.
I depend on herbal and exercise.
Exercising in the morning helps a lot but my
glucose control doesn't work very well until
midday.

Eddie - sounds like we're in the same boat. I seem to be able to control my highs, but its real hit and miss getting down to the 80s. I am thinking about ALA and Evening Primrose Oil, but I really don't need anything to avoid highs.

[AuntJoyce]

What's this too much protein bit? yoiks. Does dawn phenomena go away if you use orals or insulin?

Sorry about the limiting protein part! But they never say to limit fats. If you are more active, you can handle more protein.

I don't think meds completely make dp go away. People on the Bernstein forum say they try a snack or nip of red wine or alcohol at night which helps lower fbg.

I can get down to the 80s but keeping it there takes a lot of commitment to not eat too much and to not eat anything on the no-no list!

[Lisa N]

My understanding is that excess protein gets metabolized into glucose.

It can but it's not a complete conversion (roughly 50%) and it's a slow process so you aren't going to spike from excess protein.

25 grams of carb isn't extremely low as most low carbers view carb restriction, but I don't think that's really necessary for someone who only has a few pounds to lose and is fairly active.
40-45 with an eye on calories would probably do the trick.

Insulin or other meds can help with DP but the tradeoff is the possibility of having a hypo episode in the middle of the night and that's no picnic, either.
For DP different things seem to work for different people. Some swear by a protein and fat snack at bedtime (like cheese or peanut butter), some say that a few ounces of wine seems to help. For me, neither snack nor bedtime toddy helped but it tended to diminish the longer I low carbed.
The thing is, nearly everyone experiences DP to some degree; even 'normal' people tend to have slightly higher blood glucose in the morning than they do the rest of the day but for diabetics the best way to ensure that your blood sugar will stay elevated until lunchtime is to skip breakfast completely, so don't skip breakfast!

[eddiemcm]

Thanks for all the replies.The helpfullness and
careing on this forum at times blows me away.
Eddie

[dina1957]

What's this too much protein bit? yoiks. Does dawn phenomena go away if you use orals or insulin?
insulin at bedtime works well for many, as I have read. Not sure if orals work the same, my concern with both: hypoglycemia and increased IR.