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Roger Lee
Tue, Jan-16-07, 17:17
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: PRE-CLOVIS TOOLS
IN MINNESOTA? Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:36:57 -0600 From:
Topiltzin-2091@webtv.net Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology.mesoamerican

Tools Found In Walker, May Be 14,000 Years Old (AP) Walker,
Minn. Archaeologists have discovered stone tools atop a
hill in this northern Minnesota town that may be 13,000 to
14,000 years old, according to a published report. From the
rough stone tools, archaeologists are speculating that
"we're looking at certainly the relatively earliest
occupants of the North American continent," biologist and
archaeologist Matt Mattson said in a Star Tribune of
Minneapolis report Thursday night. He worked on the project
for the Leech Lake Heritage Sites Program, which is based
near Cass Lake. Britta Bloomberg, Minnesota's deputy
historic preservation officer, said it may be among the
oldest known archaeological sites in North and South
America. A half-dozen archaeologists, soil scientists and
others who have examined the site all said the artifacts
are genuine, she said. The stone tools were found while
archaeologists were investigating the path of a road where
the city is planning to expand for a community center,
housing and businesses. Archaeologists found 50 or more
objects while digging through an area of about 50 square
yards. The artifacts ranged from large hammer stones to
small hand-held scrapers. Mattson said the objects were
found underneath a band of rock and gravel that appeared to
have been deposited by melting glaciers and then covered by
windblown sediment, Mather said. David Mather, state
archaeologist for the National Register of Historic Places,
said the find "is something off our radar. We didn't think
it was even possible in Minnesota." "(This) could be a real
watershed for understanding Minnesota's history," he said.
Mather said the site appears to be "much older" than the
Clovis era of finely made spear points that defines the
paleo-Indian period. The find is "startling enough that
appropriate response from every archaeologist and glacial
geologist is skepticism." But, he added, a half-dozen
archaeologists, soil scientists and others who have
examined the site all say the artifacts are genuine. Human
remains, wood or textiles, if there were any, would have
dissolved long ago in the acidic soil. The oldest human
remains found in Minnesota belonged to the Browns Valley
Man, who lived about 9,000 years ago. His remains were
discovered in 1933 in a gravel pit near the town of Browns
Valley in western Minnesota. Walker is about 190 miles
northwest of the Twin Cities.

(© 2007 The Associated Press. Topiltzin-2091@webtv.net wrote:

Another news article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/2007011-
3/ap_on_sc/archaeological_find Ancient stone tools found
in N.America

By STEVE KARNOWSKI, Associated Press Writer Sat Jan 13,
1:39 AM ET

MINNEAPOLIS - What appear to be crude stone tools may provide
evidence that people lived in Minnesota 13,000 to 15,000 years
ago, which if confirmed would make them among the oldest human
artifacts ever found in North America, archaeologists said
Friday. ADVERTISEMENT

Archaeologists in the northern Minnesota town of Walker dug up
the items, which appear to be beveled scrapers, choppers, a
crude knife and several flakes that could have been used for
cutting, said Colleen Wells, field director for the Leech Lake
Heritage Sites Program.

"They don't look like much," Wells acknowledged. "They don't
look pretty."

Several archaeological experts who weren't involved with the
dig expressed a healthy dose of skepticism, but they
acknowledged they were also intrigued.

Wells and other archaeologists discovered around 50 objects
this past year while investigating a route for a planned road
that would serve a major community development project in
Walker. The items were found beneath a layer of glacial
deposits that had been covered by windblown deposits. Based on
what's known about the geology of the area, they believe the
objects are between 13,000 and 15,000 years old.

"The finding is intriguing but it really needs to have its
precise age nailed down and more needs to be known of the
artifacts," said David Meltzer, an archaeologist at Southern
Methodist University in Dallas.

Much more research needs to be done to allow firm conclusions,
Wells and her colleagues acknowledged. "It's bound to be
controversial," said Matt Mattson, another archaeologist on
the project.

Not only do the age of the items and the soil in which they
were found need to be confirmed, it must also be determined
whether the objects are really human-made artifacts or merely
rocks that were chipped in interesting ways by glaciers
during the Ice Age. And it's not yet certain if the items
were left at the site by humans, or carried there by glaciers
or flowing water.

Other researchers have found that that part of Minnesota
apparently was something of an "oasis" around 13,000 years
ago, an area free of ice cover with shifting glaciers on most
sides but with an access route to the southeast, Mattson said.

Tom Dillehay, chairman of the anthropology department at
Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tenn., was intrigued by
the edge he saw on a photo of one of the objects found in
Walker, saying it could have been chipped by a human.

"It's probably worth protecting the site and going back in and
more systematically excavating with the geologists and other
disciplines to see if it's a real site," he said.

Pat Everson, head of archaeology for the Minnesota Historical
Society, said she hadn't been to the site or seen the
artifacts personally, but she'd read the reports, knows the
archaeologists involved and considers them "perfectly
credible." Still, she counted herself among the skeptics.

"It's an extraordinary claim and it requires some
extraordinary evidence," Everson said. "But it's certainly
worth pursuing."

Several experts agreed it is possible people were in Minnesota
that long ago.

"It seems to be there is an increasing body of science that
there were stone stools and people here in that time period in
North America," said Dan Rogers, chairman of the anthropology
department at the National Museum of Natural History at the
Smithsonian Institution in Washington.

The long-accepted theory was that people first arrived in the
Western Hemisphere 11,200 years ago — corresponding with the
age of arrowheads found in the 1930s near Clovis, N.M. — via a
land bridge from Asia over what is now the Bering Strait.

But a consensus is emerging that some humans arrived thousands
of years earlier, even if scientists disagree on just how much
earlier. And several agreed that if the Minnesota objects do
turn out to be 13,000- to 15,000-year-old tools, they'd be
among the oldest human artifacts ever found in North America.

That's why the local archaeologists are hoping to get back
into the site after this winter, and hope to work out a way
with the city of Walker to preserve it for sometime in the
future when more advanced testing methods might be available.

"Once it's gone it's gone," Mattson said. "We're looking at
absolutely irreplaceable links in human history here. Once
it's gone there's no retrieving it."

Daryl Krup
Wed, Jan-17-07, 06:16
Roger Lee Bagula wrote: <snip>
> Tools Found In Walker, May Be 14,000 Years Old (AP) Walker,
> Minn. Archaeologists have discovered stone tools atop a hill
> in this northern Minnesota town that may be 13,000 to 14,000
> years old, according to a published report.
<snip>
> Another news article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070113/a-
> p_on_sc/archaeological_find Ancient stone tools found in
> N.America
>
> By STEVE KARNOWSKI, Associated Press Writer Sat Jan 13,
> 1:39 AM ET
>
> MINNEAPOLIS - What appear to be crude stone tools may
> provide evidence that people lived in Minnesota 13,000 to
> 15,000 years ago, which if confirmed would make them among
> the oldest human artifacts ever found in North America,
> archaeologists said Friday.
<snip>

Note: the ages given in these articles are not likely to be
accurate, as based on what we know about the geology
of the area, the glacial outwash gravel above the
artifacts might date from between 15,000 B.P. and
13,000 B.P. (radiocarbon dates), which would make the
Walker "artifacts" more than 16,000 years old.

Walker is East of the tip of the arrow below "Red River
Lobe" and in line with a NNE extension of the "St.Croix
Moraine" label on this map of ice extent at about the time
that that outwash gravel would have been deposited:

http://www.fromsitetostory.org/sources/glacialmaps/13000f.gif

Later ice margins are too far away, and too far downslope,
to have contributed that outwash gravel to the Walker site:

http://www.fromsitetostory.org/sources/glacialmaps/glaci-
almaps.asp

In fact, the Walker site might have been exactly on that
13,000 B.P. ice margin, if it follows the ice-marginal
cjhannel running SW from Walker and Leech Lake (marked by a
chain of lakes along the Great Northern Railway line on this
topographic map):

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=47.10139&lon=-94.58694&da-
tum=nad27&u=4&layer=DRG250&size=l&s=1000

OR

http://tinyurl.com/355qub

So far as I know, there are no dates on that glacial outwash
gravel, and immediately-beside-a-continent-sized-ice-mass is
an uncomfortable camping site, and there is, as yet, no
evidence that the "artifacts" are not simply
glacially-altered pebbles in a glacial deposit.

Wait for a peer-reviewed article.

- Daryl Krupa

Deowll
Sun, Jan-21-07, 06:16
"Roger Lee Bagula" <rlbagulatftn@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pA6rh.60414$qO4.16507@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net...
> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: PRE-CLOVIS TOOLS
> IN MINNESOTA? Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:36:57 -0600 From:
> Topiltzin-2091@webtv.net Organization: WebTV Subscriber
> Newsgroups: sci.archaeology.mesoamerican
>
>
> Tools Found In Walker, May Be 14,000 Years Old (AP) Walker,
> Minn. Archaeologists have discovered stone tools atop a
> hill in this northern Minnesota town that may be 13,000 to
> 14,000 years old, according to a published report. From the
> rough stone tools, archaeologists are speculating that
> "we're looking at certainly the relatively earliest
> occupants of the North American continent," biologist and
> archaeologist Matt Mattson said in a Star Tribune of
> Minneapolis report Thursday night. He worked on the project
> for the Leech Lake Heritage Sites Program, which is based
> near Cass Lake. Britta Bloomberg, Minnesota's deputy
> historic preservation officer, said it may be among the
> oldest known archaeological sites in North and South
> America. A half-dozen archaeologists, soil scientists and
> others who have examined the site all said the artifacts
> are genuine, she said. The stone tools were found while
> archaeologists were investigating the path of a road where
> the city is planning to expand for a community center,
> housing and businesses. Archaeologists found 50 or more
> objects while digging through an area of about 50 square
> yards. The artifacts ranged from large hammer stones to
> small hand-held scrapers. Mattson said the objects were
> found underneath a band of rock and gravel that appeared to
> have been deposited by melting glaciers and then covered by
> windblown sediment, Mather said. David Mather, state
> archaeologist for the National Register of Historic Places,
> said the find "is something off our radar. We didn't think
> it was even possible in Minnesota." "(This) could be a real
> watershed for understanding Minnesota's history," he said.
> Mather said the site appears to be "much older" than the
> Clovis era of finely made spear points that defines the
> paleo-Indian period. The find is "startling enough that
> appropriate response from every archaeologist and glacial
> geologist is skepticism." But, he added, a half-dozen
> archaeologists, soil scientists and others who have
> examined the site all say the artifacts are genuine. Human
> remains, wood or textiles, if there were any, would have
> dissolved long ago in the acidic soil. The oldest human
> remains found in Minnesota belonged to the Browns Valley
> Man, who lived about 9,000 years ago. His remains were
> discovered in 1933 in a gravel pit near the town of Browns
> Valley in western Minnesota. Walker is about 190 miles
> northwest of the Twin Cities.
>
> (© 2007 The Associated Press. Topiltzin-2091@webtv.net
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Another news article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070113/a-
> p_on_sc/archaeological_find Ancient stone tools found in
> N.America
>
> By STEVE KARNOWSKI, Associated Press Writer Sat Jan 13,
> 1:39 AM ET
>
> MINNEAPOLIS - What appear to be crude stone tools may
> provide evidence that people lived in Minnesota 13,000 to
> 15,000 years ago, which if confirmed would make them among
> the oldest human artifacts ever found in North America,
> archaeologists said Friday. ADVERTISEMENT
>
> Archaeologists in the northern Minnesota town of Walker dug
> up the items, which appear to be beveled scrapers, choppers,
> a crude knife and several flakes that could have been used
> for cutting, said Colleen Wells, field director for the
> Leech Lake Heritage Sites Program.
>
> "They don't look like much," Wells acknowledged. "They don't
> look pretty."
>
> Several archaeological experts who weren't involved with the
> dig expressed a healthy dose of skepticism, but they
> acknowledged they were also intrigued.
>
> Wells and other archaeologists discovered around 50 objects
> this past year while investigating a route for a planned
> road that would serve a major community development project
> in Walker. The items were found beneath a layer of glacial
> deposits that had been covered by windblown deposits. Based
> on what's known about the geology of the area, they believe
> the objects are between 13,000 and 15,000 years old.
>
> "The finding is intriguing but it really needs to have its
> precise age nailed down and more needs to be known of the
> artifacts," said David Meltzer, an archaeologist at Southern
> Methodist University in Dallas.
>
> Much more research needs to be done to allow firm
> conclusions, Wells and her colleagues acknowledged. "It's
> bound to be controversial," said Matt Mattson, another
> archaeologist on the project.
>
> Not only do the age of the items and the soil in which they
> were found need to be confirmed, it must also be determined
> whether the objects are really human-made artifacts or
> merely rocks that were chipped in interesting ways by
> glaciers during the Ice Age. And it's not yet certain if the
> items were left at the site by humans, or carried there by
> glaciers or flowing water.
>
> Other researchers have found that that part of Minnesota
> apparently was something of an "oasis" around 13,000 years
> ago, an area free of ice cover with shifting glaciers on
> most sides but with an access route to the southeast,
> Mattson said.
>
> Tom Dillehay, chairman of the anthropology department at
> Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tenn., was intrigued by
> the edge he saw on a photo of one of the objects found in
> Walker, saying it could have been chipped by a human.
>
> "It's probably worth protecting the site and going back in
> and more systematically excavating with the geologists and
> other disciplines to see if it's a real site," he said.
>
> Pat Everson, head of archaeology for the Minnesota
> Historical Society, said she hadn't been to the site or seen
> the artifacts personally, but she'd read the reports, knows
> the archaeologists involved and considers them "perfectly
> credible." Still, she counted herself among the skeptics.
>
> "It's an extraordinary claim and it requires some
> extraordinary evidence," Everson said. "But it's certainly
> worth pursuing."
>
> Several experts agreed it is possible people were in
> Minnesota that long ago.
>
> "It seems to be there is an increasing body of science that
> there were stone stools and people here in that time period
> in North America," said Dan Rogers, chairman of the
> anthropology department at the National Museum of Natural
> History at the Smithsonian Institution in Washington.
>
> The long-accepted theory was that people first arrived in
> the Western Hemisphere 11,200 years ago — corresponding
> with the age of arrowheads found in the 1930s near Clovis,
> N.M. — via a land bridge from Asia over what is now the
> Bering Strait.
>
> But a consensus is emerging that some humans arrived
> thousands of years earlier, even if scientists disagree on
> just how much earlier. And several agreed that if the
> Minnesota objects do turn out to be 13,000- to
> 15,000-year-old tools, they'd be among the oldest human
> artifacts ever found in North America.
>
> That's why the local archaeologists are hoping to get back
> into the site after this winter, and hope to work out a way
> with the city of Walker to preserve it for sometime in the
> future when more advanced testing methods might be
> available.
>
> "Once it's gone it's gone," Mattson said. "We're looking at
> absolutely irreplaceable links in human history here. Once
> it's gone there's no retrieving it."

Of course if the artifacts are real people were somewhere else
in NA a long time before or these remains wouldn't exist. It
would not have been that easy to make it through an ice age
Minnesota winter.

Daryl Krup
Thu, Jan-25-07, 06:15
On Jan 24, 9:01=A0pm, vinc...@triumfunspam.ca (pete) wrote:

> Interesting site, and thanks for the links, but nope; the
> one I'm thinking of was
> 1) claimed as pre-clovis long ago - I think I encountered it
> =A0 =A0around 12-15 years ago, which is why I can't
> remember anything =A0 =A0about it, and it was old then
> 2) closer to the great lakes
> 3) tools discovered under a pebble/gravel type moraine layer
> 4) claimed a date around 15-16kya, and thus immediately
> crushed =A0 =A0into oblivion by the clovis orthodoxy.
>
> Now, the hazy doubtful part of my memory of this site
> includes something about it being turned up in some sort of
> excavation, and this allowed the clovis mafia to scoff that
> the stratigraphy had been corrupted, over the indignant
> protests of the people directly involved in investigating
> the site.

Pete: If you do recall some more detail on that site, I
would greatly appreciate hearing about it from you.=20

-=20 Daryl Krupa

Lee Olsen
Wed, Mar-07-07, 06:16
Roger Lee Bagula wrote:
> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: PRE-CLOVIS TOOLS
> IN MINNESOTA? Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:36:57 -0600 From:
> Topiltzin-2091@webtv.net Organization: WebTV Subscriber
> Newsgroups: sci.archaeology.mesoamerican
>
>
> Tools Found In Walker, May Be 14,000 Years Old (AP) Walker,
> Minn. Archaeologists have discovered stone tools atop a hill
> in this northern Minnesota town that may be 13,000 to 14,000
> years old, according to a published report.

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/breaking_news/1-
6840053.htm

Daryl Krup
Wed, Mar-07-07, 06:16
> Roger Lee Bagula forwarded:
> > Tools Found In Walker, May Be 14,000 Years Old (AP)
> > Walker, Minn. Archaeologists have discovered stone tools
> > atop a hill in this northern Minnesota town that may be
> > 13,000 to 14,000 years old, according to a published
> > report.

On Mar 6, 9:08 pm, "Lee Olsen" <paleoc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/breaking_news-
> /16840053.htm

More to the point:

The Walker Hill Site (21CA668): Comments on the Possibility of
a Late Glacial Human Presence in Minnesota Scott Anfinson
Minnesota State Archaeologist
2/20/07

http://www.osa.admin.state.mn.us/documents/The%20Walker%20Hil-
l%20Site.pdf

What I regard as an interesting quote: 'Archaeologists also
need to more aware of the recent advances in radiocarbon
date correction (Clovis is 2,000 years older than we
thought) and that "BP" and "years ago" are not the same.'

What is most interesting is this statigraphic description: '
... the basic description said the modern soils were
underlain by a thick (ca. 40 cm) Aeolian (loess) deposit
followed by a water-sorted sand/gravel/cobble layer, then a
water-sorted sand layer, and finally a layer of large
boulders. Most "artifacts" had come from the layer
immediately below the wind-deposited sands, ... '
I.e., most of the 'artifacts' came from stream deposits
associated with glacial meltwater flows strong enough to
have transported stones as big as an adult fist. That
stream would have deposited that water-sorted
sand/gravel/cobble layer sometime between the advance of
glacial ice to the Itasca and St. Croix Moraines and the
final cutting of the meltwater channel to the southwest.
That is still a pre-Clovis time frame, nowithstanding
the dating inaccuracies of the biologist presenting the
site. But most of the 'artifacts' could be younger than
that water-sorted sand/gravel/cobble layer, i.e.
associated with the time of deposition of the
wind-deposited sands above, which need not be
pre-Clovis, and might even be post-Clovis.

Let's hope that the 2007 excavation is done with more
attention to details of proveniance.

- Daryl Krupa