Lots of questions

[nekia]

I am new to this forum, and I have a lot of questions. I am a type 2 diabetic, but they have told me I might be 'evolving' to a type 1. I am very insulin resistant. I take actos, and am currently using an insulin pump. Before I started low carbing, my levels were very well controlled with the pump. Unfortunately, the good control made me gain weight very easily, and that's why I needed to try a different approach. I gained 60 pounds since being on the pump, and the low fat, high carb diets only produced a very slow frustrating weight loss. Initially, I started dieting at the beginning of November, using the Medifast diet system. It's low carb, but also very low fat. I lost 15 pounds in a little over a month. It's also very low calorie, too. Under 1000 calories the way I was doing it. Unfortunately, it became a little too expensive for me to be able to continue on it, so I decided to try Atkins. I had tried it many years ago, and was familiar with the concept. Also, my Mom has done Atkins for years and has lost a ton of weight and went off insulin altogether. (she is diabetic too). I didn't seem to lose weight very fast the last time I tried Atkins, nor this time either. Only about 5 pounds in 3 weeks now. I am feeling very frustrated at this point. I am definetely in ketosis, but the only benefit to that so far seems to be the decreased appetite. My other major problem is that my levels are much more difficult to control on this diet. I had my insulin to carb ratio figured perfectly when I was eating normally. I have to bolus everytime I eat, so I give a bolus just based on the number of carbs I am eating, not the protein. For some reason my body seems to be very sensitive to the protein when I am following Atkins. My levels don't come down as well as they should be. Almost like I need additional insulin for the foods that have no carbs. I have read that you need some insulin for protein also, but never knew how much. It never seemed to be a problem when I was following a high carb low fat diet. My levels were perfect back then. I have always been confused by this, because it happened the last time I was doing Atkins, too. I just wonder if this diet can work for me? It sure did for my Mom. I followed induction for 2 weeks, and am still keeping my carbs around 20, but I just added some nuts, is really the only difference.
Also, I don't really eat any salad, because I just don't like it much. But I do eat cooked veggies everyday, or some coleslaw. I probably don't drink 8 glasses of water everyday, but I try to drink as much as I can. I know my Mom didn't drink all that water either, but it didn't seem to effect her weight loss. Could any of these things I mentioned be causing me a problem? Does anyone know why me levels are higher when I do this diet? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[ReginaW]

Nekia,

Can I ask where you're located?

[dina1957]

My other major problem is that my levels are much more difficult to control on this diet. I had my insulin to carb ratio figured perfectly when I was eating normally. I have to bolus everytime I eat, so I give a bolus just based on the number of carbs I am eating, not the protein. For some reason my body seems to be very sensitive to the protein when I am following Atkins.
nekia,
You are not the only one struggling with control on a very low carb level. I am T2 with no insulin or meds, and everytime I try protein/fat mostly diet, my numbers get worse. Protein requires insulin as well, especially red and dark meats. It has stored glycogen, which gets converted into glucose but rather slowly, so you need to account this protein as certain number of carbs, may be as 1 g of carbs per oz of protein, sorry I can't give you the correct ratio here. There is also gluconeogenesis on a low carb, when liver converts protein into glucose, and this also keeps your Bgs higher. You may want to read Dr.Bernstein book (he is T1 for 55 years) and/or ask pump user on Dr.Bernstein forum, not too many here I believe.
http://www.diabetes-normalsugars.com/

When I eat a bit more high fiber/low GI carbs than suggested per Bernstein and Atkins, my Bg spikes slightly but come down pretty fast too. If I stick to protein and fat mostly, they do not spike but rather stay at higher level for hours. Beef is the worst choice for me in this term, I have read that beef raises insulin 27% more than pasta. In general, protein rich food is not a freebee, and may require substantial insulin secretion in diabetics. Consider than protein is slowly digested, this raise may continue for hours after a meal. Bodybuilders love animal protein especially beef for it's anabolic properties, and I believe it is also due to their insulin raising properties too.;)
Ironically, I have been on a lower carb diet with high protein intake for few years prior to being Dx with T2, so now I am suspecting that my diet high in protein and fat somehow contributed to this diagnosis. Dr.Bernstein suggest limit protein intake to 3-4 oz per meal for weight loss and Bgs control.
My levels don't come down as well as they should be. Almost like I need additional insulin for the foods that have no carbs. I have read that you need some insulin for protein also, but never knew how much. It never seemed to be a problem when I was following a high carb low fat diet. My levels were perfect back then. I have always been confused by this, because it happened the last time I was doing Atkins, too. I just wonder if this diet can work for me? It sure did for my Mom. I followed induction for 2 weeks, and am still keeping my carbs around 20, but I just added some nuts, is really the only difference.
May be you should account protein when you estimate your bolus insulin. I figured it on my own, since I don't use pump and don't take meds, but my meter tells me that I should watch my protein intake. So lately I have increased my high fiber carbs and lowered protein and fat, and see much better numbers.
I am probably the only one on this forum who has higher Bgs on Dr.Benstein and Dr. Atkins plans, and must eat morer high fiber carbs and less protein and fat to obtain better control. As usual, YMMV.

EDA:
Ok, have found this info that you may find helpfull:


What is the insulin index?

The insulin index was developed to overcome some of the limitations of the glycemic index, which ranks different foods according to their effect on blood sugar levels.

Normally, the carbohydrate in the food you eat is eventually broken down into sugar. As it enters the blood, the sugar triggers the release of the hormone insulin. Insulin helps to move nutrients from the blood into the cells of your body.

Traditionally, nutritionists thought that a greater glycemic response means a greater insulin response. Because insulin (combined with excess calories) promotes the storage of nutrients such as carbohydrate or fat, a diet with a low glycemic index, in theory at least, is supposed to make weight loss faster and easier.

However, while the link between the glycemic index and insulin holds true with some foods, it certainly isn't the case with all of them. When you eat a food high in protein (such as beef, for example), insulin levels will rise, even though blood sugar levels stay the same.

So, scientists from the University of Sydney decided to develop the insulin index [10]. Foods are given a score based on the insulin response to a fixed amount (239 calories) of a test food...
The listing is for members only...;)

http://www.thefactsaboutfitness.com/articles/fatloss.htm

David Mendosa provides the limited index on his site:



Glycemic Score Insulin Score
BREAKFAST CEREALS

All-Bran 40 32
Porridge (Oatmeal) 60 40
Muesli 60 40
Special K 70 66
Honeysmacks 60 67
Sustain 66 71
Cornflakes 76 75

CARBOHYDRATE-RICH FOODS

White pasta 46 40
Brown pasta 68 40
Grain [rye] bread 60 56
Brown rice 104 62
French fries 71 74
White rice 110 79
Whole-meal bread 97 96
White bread 100 100
Potatoes 141 121

PROTEIN-RICH FOODS

Eggs 42 31
Cheese 55 45
Beef 21 51
Lentils 62 58
Fish 28 59
Baked beans 114 120

FRUIT

Apples 50 59
Oranges 39 60
Bananas 79 81
Grapes 74 82

SNACKS AND CONFECTIONARY

Peanuts 12 20
Popcorn 62 54
Potato chips 52 61
Ice cream 70 89
Yogurt 62 115
Mars bar 79 112
Jellybeans 118 160

BAKERY PRODUCTS

Doughnuts 63 74
Croissants 74 79
Cake 56 82
Crackers 118 87

Cookies 74 92

http://www.mendosa.com/insulin_index.htm


it looks like some whole grains even not (white pasta) have higher GI,and trigger less insulin response than low GI protein rich food.
Very interesting and often overlooked view on diabetic diet IMO.

HTH

:wave:

[nekia]

ReginaW, I am in Mankato, MN.

I am probably the only one on this forum who has higher Bgs on Dr.Benstein and Dr. Atkins plans, and must eat morer high fiber carbs and less protein and fat to obtain better control. As usual, YMMV.

What type of high fiber carbs do you eat?

[dina1957]

ReginaW, I am in Mankato, MN.



What type of high fiber carbs do you eat?
bran a-crisp crackers for grains and ocationally 1/2 of steel cut oatmeal, beans and legumes (lentils, kidney and garbanzo), broccoli, cabbage, brussel sprouts, fennel, leaks, radishes, daikon, celery and celeriac, spinach, salad greens, scallions, onions and garlic, green leafy veggies, brussel sprouts, beets in salads, and small sweet potatoe now and then. I also eat bell peppers, asparagus, endives, cucumbers, avocado, tomatoes, olives, seeds and nuts. I eat all berries, melons, apples and pears, apricots, plums and prunes (these contain mostly xylitol), peaches and nectarines, tangerines, small amount of grapes and pomegranates. But I eat these fruits in season only, and as a part of a meal for desert with some cheese or nuts usually.

[nawchem]

dina I was curious if beef raises insulin but not bs, as a diabetic wouldn't that help you keep your bs low?

I am interested in diabetes and the journals I've read seem to be that LC dieting gradually improves control over time. It seems that exercise is very beneficial with this disorder. Make your changes slowly one thing at a time give it 6 weeks and see what happens with less protein, more fiber stuff.

A lot of first month weightloss is water. If you went right from medifast system to atkins you're not going to get the big water wt loss most get the first 2 weeks. I would be overjoyed to see 5lb in 3 weeks gone. Its not bad at all, especially considering many don't lose wt in the 3rd week on atkins. Hang in there and give it another month. I bet you will be healthier and things will move in the right direction for you. The other thing you could do is keep your calorie level at the same as it once on medifast see if that speeds things up.

[dina1957]

dina I was curious if beef raises insulin but not bs, as a diabetic wouldn't that help you keep your bs low?
it does raise BG but slowly and can keep Bgs higher for hours. My concern is now that if indeed animal protein spikes insulin and not much Bgs, over long term it "drains" b-cells and at the end result is not better than on a higher carb diet. I also trying to figure out if eating lots of protein on lower carb diet is what actually made me a diabetic I also think if animal protein raises insulin, it also contributes to higher level IR without us realizing it. :q:

[nawchem]

I see what you mean. It just seems like - what can you eat then? I'm sticking to chicken and seafood vege diet I feel like thats what helps the most-I get low bs not high but probably the same concept as a diabetic.

[ReginaW]

I am in Mankato, MN.

I tried to send you a private message, but I think you're too new to be able to receive PM's on your account?

I know a couple of doctors in MN you can contact for possible referrals in your area; so you can find someone who is familiar with carbohydrate restriction with someone who is T2 and on insulin....since you're on insulin, you really *should* be monitored as you tweak at this point.

If you'd like the contact information, email me and I'll send it to you - I can't post it here since it's private contact info.....my email is controlledcarb at aol dot com

[Lisa N]

I tried to send you a private message, but I think you're too new to be able to receive PM's on your account?

Members need to make 25 posts before they can send or receive private messages. :)

I was curious if beef raises insulin but not bs, as a diabetic wouldn't that help you keep your bs low?

The missing piece of the puzzle here is that proteins such as beef and, to an even greater extent, fish do cause an insulin response in most people. However, when insulin is released, so is glucagon which counteracts the effects of insulin. In many T2 diabetics, their phase 1 insulin response is no longer functioning or greatly diminished so only the glucagon is released which prompts the liver to begin gluconeogenesis. Strange thing is, not everyone reacts to a protein meal with increased blood glucose. In fact, studies indicate that very few do. Personally, I can eat a fairly large steak and see very little increase in my blood sugar.
Something else I should point out is that low carbing, when followed properly, is a high fat, adequate protein, low carb way of eating, not a high protein way of eating.
I've read studies that indicate that because the high circulating insulin levels in diabetics actively promote the breakdown of muscle tissue that they have greater protein requirements than a non-diabetic; up to 1 gram pr kg of body weight. The good news is that most people achieve that without really thinking too much about it.

[dina1957]

Something else I should point out is that low carbing, when followed properly, is a high fat, adequate protein, low carb way of eating, not a high protein way of eating.
This is true, but hard to stick to, without adding significant amount of fat to eery meal, such as it suggested in ketogenic diets to reat epilepsy. They give children heavy cream diluted with abit of water with every meal, tomake up for almost 90% of fat.
When carbs and very low and protein greately limited, it is hard to maintain RDA macros and not being hungry. I don;t think drinking heavy cream at my age will benefit my cardiovascualr health.
I've read studies that indicate that because the high circulating insulin levels in diabetics actively promote the breakdown of muscle tissue that they have greater protein requirements than a non-diabetic; up to 1 gram pr kg of body weight. The good news is that most people achieve that without really thinking too much about it.
Interesting, but I have read that higher insulin contributes to muscle gain, not breakdown, since insulin is highly anabolic; it's lack of insulin that is causing breakdown of muscle tissue and only in T2 with very poor control, or T1 that can hardly gain any muscles. Hardly anyone is developed countries is protein defficient. I can easily get 100 g of protein daily if I watch my carbs closely just to meet RDA, and some days even 120g. It is hard to satisfy all the criteria.

[Lisa N]

Dina, every thing I can find suggests that while protein may provoke an insulin response, it does not provoke an increase in blood sugar readings. I know, I know...you are the exception to the rule and the studies seem to confirm that because most of them demonstrate no appreciable rise in blood sugar after a protein meal, even in T2.
I'm curious...does fish have the same effect on you as beef? How about chicken or pork?
No...I wouldn't suggest that you start drinking cream, especially since you have increased your carb intake but lots of people here don't seem to have a problem sticking with a high fat, adequate protein, low carb plan without swilling whipping cream at every meal, myself included.

To the OP, 20 grams of carb may be too low for you and you may be better off with what Dr. Bernstein suggests with a 6-12-12 pattern (6 grams of carb for breakfast, 12 for lunch and 12 for dinner and, depending on how many hours you tend to be awake, a 4th meal with 12 grams of carb as well. Also, how much protein are you eating? What types of protein are you eating?
I agree with Regina that because you are insulin dependent, you should probably work with your doctor as you tweak and get your basal and bolus levels reconfigured to your new menus. There are other factors at play here besides what you eat such as how long you go between meals and your activity level. I'm sure that you're aware that even stress and sickness can play a part in your overall controll.

[dina1957]

Dina, every thing I can find suggests that while protein may provoke an insulin response, it does not provoke an increase in blood sugar readings. I know, I know...you are the exception to the rule and the studies seem to confirm that because most of them demonstrate no appreciable rise in blood sugar after a protein meal, even in T2.
I am not saying that I have a large spike from protein, but Bgs will stay at 100-110 for hours after meal, while less protein and more carbs (beans and fruit) carbs do not spike my BGs much and keep 2 h pp in 80-90 range. If I wake up with fasting of 120 (it is high but I have draded DP), and eat bacon and eggs, my 2 h pp will be 110. If I have a cup of plain yougurt with bran cracker for BF, 2 h pp will be <100.
I'm curious...does fish have the same effect on you as beef? How about chicken or pork?
Beef and pork are the worst, fish and poultry better. I think it could be arahidonic acid, not only protein in meat, but overall, the protein portion matters the most.
No...I wouldn't suggest that you start drinking cream, especially since you have increased your carb intake but lots of people here don't seem to have a problem sticking with a high fat, adequate protein, low carb plan without swilling whipping cream at every meal, myself included.
Lisa, I can't stick to 6-12-12 plan no matter what I do. I have this very distinct pattern. First day or two on 6-12-12 plan, my FBG drops slightly (<110), then it will jump to 140-150 range and just hang there.
Also, 2 h pp would be 10 points higher, around or >100. I went from 5.4% to 5.7% on 6-12-12 plan mostly due to higher Bgs overnight because of higher degree of gluconeogenesis.
Addtionally, this level of carbs makes me irritable, anxious, fatigued, nauseated, headachy, constipated, with a really bad acid reflux, and simply miserable.
My point of protein being insulin stimulator was not a short term glucose control but a long term. So, adequate protein (20%) is not enough for me to feel full on a 30g carbs, and too much fat gives me acid reflux. I feel much better eating more fiberous carbs (feel fuller faster), less protein and fat. No leg cramps too.

To the OP, 20 grams of carb may be too low for you and you may be better off with what Dr. Bernstein suggests with a 6-12-12 pattern (6 grams of carb for breakfast, 12 for lunch and 12 for dinner and, depending on how many hours you tend to be awake, a 4th meal with 12 grams of carb as well. Also, how much protein are you eating? What types of protein are you eating?
I agree with Regina that because you are insulin dependent, you should probably work with your doctor as you tweak and get your basal and bolus levels reconfigured to your new menus. There are other factors at play here besides what you eat such as how long you go between meals and your activity level. I'm sure that you're aware that even stress and sickness can play a part in your overall controll.
I think the most important is to count protein in addition to carbs when calculating bolus, and slightly increase carbs per meal may be helpfull too. Diabetes is a very complex disorder, and especiallly for insulin users. It is trial and error for all of us.

[nekia]

Just thought of another thing. I have seen my blood sugar levels rise just form eating pork rinds, and nothing else. Aren't pork rinds pretty much all fat? I still don't seem to be losing much weight on this diet. Is it possible that I could just maintain my current weight on this diet, and never lose anything? I am still in ketosis, but feeling I may never lose another pound.

[Lisa N]

Beef and pork are the worst, fish and poultry better.

Dina, that doesn't make a lot of sense because fish has a higher insulin response than beef does (higher than popcorn, almost the same as potato chips) and yet doesn't cause you as much problem. Since it doesn't, then I'd say that theory is busted. I don't think Arachidonic acid would be responsible, either, since this study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12524655&dopt=Abstract) shows it's actually beneficial to blood glucose readings and insulin sensitivity.


Lisa, I can't stick to 6-12-12 plan no matter what I do.

Dina, if you go back and read my previous post, I wasn't suggesting that you do that. I was suggesting that the OP (original poster) increase her carb intake to more of a 6-12-12 pattern giving her 10 more grams of carb daily (or more, depending on how long she is up every day) than she currently is eating because taking your carb level too low can have a negative impact on blood sugar stability.

I think the most important is to count protein in addition to carbs when calculating bolus

Dina, since neither of us is insulin dependent or on a pump, I stand by the suggestion that the OP seek the advice and guidance of her doctor and be monitored more closely while she is getting her insulin doses recalibrated to her current eating regime. She may very well need to consider protein amounts in her dosages but neither of us are qualified to make that assessment.

[Lisa N]

Just thought of another thing. I have seen my blood sugar levels rise just form eating pork rinds, and nothing else. Aren't pork rinds pretty much all fat? I still don't seem to be losing much weight on this diet. Is it possible that I could just maintain my current weight on this diet, and never lose anything? I am still in ketosis, but feeling I may never lose another pound.

A serving of pork rinds, in general, contains 9 grams of protein and 5 grams of fat but that's just for the plain ones. BBQ or other flavors can contain sugars. That's more protein and less fat than a serving of peanuts. I generally don't eat pork rinds because they are so high in sodium and cause me to retain a lot of water. :idea:

Weight loss seems to be difficult for those on insulin because the insulin favors fat storage more than it does fat useage. That doesn't make it impossible for you to lose weight, but it does make it harder and the weight loss slower. You may find that you need to keep your calories lower and your exercise higher to keep the scale moving downward. Without a menu, though, it's hard to guess as to why you aren't losing. Can you post some average days menus?

[dina1957]

Just thought of another thing. I have seen my blood sugar levels rise just form eating pork rinds, and nothing else.
I can;t tolerate pork and pork fat either, raises my BGs. I recall from Dr.Bernstein forum that pork is a big NO for many diabetics, it is not amouunt of carbs per se, it has more to do with arachidonic acid.
I still don't seem to be losing much weight on this diet. Is it possible that I could just maintain my current weight on this diet, and never lose anything? I am still in ketosis, but feeling I may never lose another pound.
I have lost weight initally by cutting most fat and grains, and eating very little in general. But adding fat and trying to match 6-12-12 and al micros, made me re-gain good portion of it. I can only lose if I eat less protein and keep fat around 30%, and watch my protions. Portion control is easy if I eat enough high fiber food. For the past couple weeks, I ate lots high fiber veggies, some beans, lower fat dairy, some chicken breast and fish ( 3-4 oz daily), and some fruit. I already lost a dress size wihout seeing much changes in my BGs, actually fasting is <120, which is low for me. I also started swimming (an hour 4-5 days a week), so this has something to do with weight loss too.
Overall, protein and high fat diet never helped me to lose weight, this type of diet makes me hugrier and since I love protein and fat, I can;t control my portions, and overeat.
We all different in fact, and this is why some lose all weight on ketogenic diet while others don't.
YMMV

[dina1957]

I see what you mean. It just seems like - what can you eat then? I'm sticking to chicken and seafood vege diet I feel like thats what helps the most-I get low bs not high but probably the same concept as a diabetic.
I eat fish mostly in summer, beef is only during winter time. I am not big fan of chicken and turkey, so I just try to make protein as a condiment rather than build my meal around it. For example, I make different broth and vegetables soups in winter, so I eat a bowl of soup with lots of veggies and 1-2 oz of meat. Same with salalds, lots of veggies with either an egg, or some cheese or 1-2 oz of chicken.
AS for hypoglycemics, not all of them become diabetics, I never got hypo episode, but can imagine it's no fun to be dizzy, shaky and hungry shortly after a meal.
I now think that plant fiber (both soluble nd insoluble) plays bigger role in satiety and overall health than fat and protein.
JMO:)

[dina1957]

Dina, since neither of us is insulin dependent or on a pump, I stand by the suggestion that the OP seek the advice and guidance of her doctor and be monitored more closely while she is getting her insulin doses recalibrated to her current eating regime. She may very well need to consider protein amounts in her dosages but neither of us are qualified to make that assessment.
It was just an idea, she has to go with her doctor advice, and get her pump calibrated accordingly. But it also may help other diabetics on Atkins and similar diet to start watching protein portions too.

[dina1957]

Dina, that doesn't make a lot of sense because fish has a higher insulin response than beef does (higher than popcorn, almost the same as potato chips) and yet doesn't cause you as much problem. Since it doesn't, then I'd say that theory is busted.
Not so fast, as I suspect type of fatty acids is what makes the difference. Fish is mostly Omega-3 while pork and beef contain mostly Omega-6, especially commercially raised animals.
I don't think Arachidonic acid would be responsible, either, since this study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12524655&dopt=Abstract) shows it's actually beneficial to blood glucose readings and insulin sensitivity.
Arachodnic acid stimulates both insulin and glucagon, not sure how is this helps with isnulin sensitivity.

Arachidonic acid induced release of insulin and glucagon: role of endogenous prostaglandins in pancreatic hormone secretion.



Phair RD (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Phair+RD%22%5BAuthor%5D),
Pek SB (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Pek+SB%22%5BAuthor%5D),
Lands WE (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Lands+WE%22%5BAuthor%5D).
The involvement of prostaglandins in the effects of arachidonic acid (20:4n-6) on insulin and glucagon release was investigated, using the isolated, perfused rat pancreas model. 20:4n-6, the substrate for dienoic prostaglandins, or 20:3n-3, a fatty acid that cannot be metabolized to prostaglandins were perfused over 55 min. 20: 4n-6 evoked triphasic insulin release: early and late phase during, and "off-response" following the perfusion. With 20:3n-3 the early phase of insulin release was 57% of that with 20:4n-6. 20:4n-6 stimulated only an early phase release of glucagon; 20:3n-3 had no effect. Indomethacin (10 microM, a cyclooxygenase inhibitor) inhibited by 50% the early phase of insulin and glucagon release induced by 20:4n-6, but did not modify insulin release during the early phase with 20:3n-3, or the late phase or off-response with either 20:4n-6 or 20:3n-3. We conclude that 1) the early phase release of insulin and glucagon which occurs with arachidonic acid is due in part to pancreatic biosynthesis of prostaglandins; and 2) in the other phases of insulin release evoked by the fatty acids, alternate "nonspecific" mechanisms may be involved.

PMID: 6430728 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=6430728&dopt=abstract

http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/33/10/929
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=436979
http://www.ihop-net.org/UniPub/iHOP/gs/321113.html







Dina, if you go back and read my previous post, I wasn't suggesting that you do that. I was suggesting that the OP (original poster) increase her carb intake to more of a 6-12-12 pattern giving her 10 more grams of carb daily (or more, depending on how long she is up every day) than she currently is eating because taking your carb level too low can have a negative impact on blood sugar stability.



Dina, since neither of us is insulin dependent or on a pump, I stand by the suggestion that the OP seek the advice and guidance of her doctor and be monitored more closely while she is getting her insulin doses recalibrated to her current eating regime. She may very well need to consider protein amounts in her dosages but neither of us are qualified to make that assessment.

[Lisa N]

Arachodnic acid stimulates both insulin and glucagon, not sure how is this helps with isnulin sensitivity.

I don't believe they explain the mechanism clearly, but the study that I referenced earlier showed much better blood glucose readings when AA was given and concluded:
In an acute study, 20 mg/kg AA plus 10 mg/kg zinc administered via gastric gavage significantly improved oral glucose tolerance in G-K rats when compared to rats given distilled water (DW) only.
and
results suggest that treatment of genetically diabetic G-K rats with AA plus zinc lowers blood glucose levels via improvement of insulin sensitivity.

Interestingly enough, beef contains a fair amount of zinc (more than pork or chicken) so while it may provoke an insulin response, it also may make that insulin more effective.

[Gostrydr]

I find it amazing that we are worried about the minute amount of glycogen in beef yet we do well on Melons which are some of the worst offenders of causing blood sugar disturbances.

I think the offenders in meat are white meat found in turkey breast and chicken breast due to the fact that they lack fat.

I forgot who wrote this but they compared chicken breast to white bread but the chicken breast has protien.

I still find it appalling of the use of insulin in type 2's

Your body makes enough insulin,yet is does not work in the Type 2..

so why inject more of it? Isn't that like putting fire out with gas?

IMO diet and excercise is the best way to control type 2 diabetes. Diet includes not eating food stuff that your body cannot handle,.
This includes grains(which are not healthy for you to begin with) and only eating fruit(1 small serving a day) with a skin. Apples,necteraines,berries,plums,peaches.

Your fiber should come from non-starchy veggies.

I know everyone states that everyone is different and blah,blah..but as a diabetic there are some basics and one is not to eat sugar..regardless of the form that it is derived from or if they are complex, slow burning,,blah blah..it is still sugar.

Sorry about the rant. If my mother would of listened to what I had to say and not the medical community,she would not be dead..

[Lisa N]

I still find it appalling of the use of insulin in type 2's
Your body makes enough insulin,yet is does not work in the Type 2..
so why inject more of it? Isn't that like putting fire out with gas?

In all fairness, not all T2s are the same. Some still make enough insulin but their bodies are resistant to it. Some have decreased insulin production due to burned out beta cells along with insulin resistance.
Some are actually T1 misdiagnosed as a T2; there is a period in some T1's where the pancreas is still producing some insulin but then stops as the beta cells are destroyed. I think that's what Nekia referred to when she mentioned that her doctors were thinking that she might be a T2 evolving to a T1.
If diet, excercise and oral meds fail to control blood glucose readings, the next step is insulin. Most docs don't go straight to insulin on a T2; they try other things first. A lot depends on how high the blood sugar readings are when a person is diagnosed. It's less of a situation of putting out a fire with gasoline as it is getting out a bigger hammer.
Low carb can enable a lot of T2's to get off insulin and even oral medications but not all. Those that don't get off meds completely often find that they need a lot less, though, and that can only be a good thing. :thup:

[Gostrydr]

I understand all the differences,but in my mothers case she fell and broke her hip. She was hospitalized. Up til then she had never been on insulin.

After she ate her breakfast which consisted of pancakes and syrup and oj, they took her blood sugar and were alarmed.

'Oh my god ,we have to get you on insulin!!"" I politely informed them that no she did not need the insuin,but perhaps some better food choices . Geared more to her condition.

Well long story short and after continuous battes with a nutritonist and the staff doctor, I stopped fighting them because it was stressing out my mother.

They started giving her insulin and I am not over dramatizing this,but she started to go downhill almost immediatley.

And they kept serving her mashed potatoes,grape juice,pizza..

but in their mind it was ok,because she was taking insulin.

Now she is dead

[Lisa N]

Gostrydr, I'm very sorry to hear about your mother and I agree that what they were feeding her was terrible for even a type 2, but there are so many variables going on (broken hip, hospitlization, increased pain and stress, pain medications, surgery for the hip fracture?, etc..., blaming just one of them (the introduction of insulin) isn't necessarily the correct explanation, IMO.
It's human nature to try to find meaning or patterns in events but we have to keep in mind that correlation does not show or prove causation. Statistically, diabetics with hip fracture (diet controlled and insulin dependent alike) have a higher rate of mortality than non-diabetics with the same injury. Even among 'healthy' people with hip fracture, there is a nearly 10% mortality rate from complications relating to the fracture in the first 30 days.
I'm sorry about your mother; I lost mine to alcoholism and breast cancer when I was 30. It still saddens me to this day to think that she might have lived long enough to see her grandchildren had she sought treatment for both conditions sooner.

[Gostrydr]

Thank you Lisa..that was much appreciated.

I know how you feel. I had my first child at 41 and it pains me that she is not here to see this amazing child!


She was actually in the hospital for 8 months and in that time she had a foot removed and had a stroke. It was just horrific

[nekia]

Lisa N asked awhile back for me to post a typical menu, and see why I am not losing much weight. Usually for breakfast I will have eggs with cheese and some type of meat, like bacon or sausage. I have tried some low carb muffin recipes, and I also make the mock danish recipe I found online. Sometimes I have vanilla almond pancakes, which I think I could eat everyday. Lunch is usually some type of meat and cheese on a low carb wrap. I have been snacking on almonds, string cheese, pork rinds, deviled eggs. Dinner is usually some kind of meat or fish. Shrimp, pork roast, hamburgers, steak or roast beef. I have cooked vegetables most of the time. I rarely eat salad except homeade coleslaw. I have tried to eat raw cucumbers lately or raw zuchinni. I'm not much of a salad person. I have been staying away from nutrasweet products, and meats with nitrites now for the last few weeks. The only other things I can think of is my water intake. I have a hard time getting 8 glasses a day. Most of ther time it's about half of that. As I mentioned before, my Mom had great success with this diet and never drank all that water. She read that your body doesn't need all that water but gets enough from the foods you eat, and what you do drink. The idea is that if you are not thirsty you don't need any additional water. I'm not sure what to think about that because I have read things on both sides of the coin. Also, a bad knee and plantar fascitis keeps me from being able to exercise the way I would like to, but I am pretty active on a new job I have started in the last several months. So my lifestyle is not totally sedentary. I am going to maybe try water aerobics and yoga in the coming weeks.
I also am confused about something else that has been happening. I seem to have very small amounts of keytones in the morning, but it increases as the day goes on and by evening my strips turn darker. Is it true that the level is not important, just as long as you are registering some amount of keytones? Someone told me that, and also it could be affected by my water intake. Although, yesterday it was low keytones all day and night for some reason. I tried a new brand of low carb wrap. I wonder if you can trust the carb count on those things? It was only supposed to be 4 net carbs. I am definetely at a stall it seems, and not sure what to do. The only good thing is that I am really so much less hungry. Insulin has always made me feel hungry, for years now, and this is a great relief to me not to have that gnawing feeling so much of the time like I used to. I eat so much less food it really astounds me sometimes. Just wish I could lose weight.
Oh, I also drink carb countdown milk, but not everyday, and use whipping cream in one to two cups of coffee a day. I use whipping cream in recipes too. Not too much usually though. I just don't know if these things can cause a person to stall, but have heard that they do for some people. Any advice at this point would be greatly appreciated.

[v-effect]

How can a person evolve into a Type 1, which is an autoimmune disorder?

[dina1957]

How can a person evolve into a Type 1, which is an autoimmune disorder?
In terms of complete beta-cells burnout, many T2 end up being on insulin just like T1. T1 is autoimmune, but the end results is insufficient insulin or complete lack of it, so unfortunately, T2 can "evolve" into T1 so to speak.

[Lisa N]

How can a person evolve into a Type 1, which is an autoimmune disorder?

Technically, you can't. You're either a T1 or a T2, although researchers are speculating that there may be such a thing as Type 3 diabetes (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4315609.stm). It is possible, though, to be misdiagnosed as a T2 when you are really a T1 still in what is referred to as 'the honeymoon phase'.
A lot of people confuse insulin dependent type 2 with Type 1 diabetes and while the end result is the same (both require insulin to live), the cause is quite different. Insulin dependent type 2s also usually still produce some insulin of their own while a true type 1 produces none.
Many people also mistakenly believe that only children get type 1 diabetes and while it is much more common in children, it can develop at any age.

Nekia, may I suggest that you input your daily menus into MyPlan or Fitday for several days? It may be that you are simply consuming more calories than your body can tolerate and still lose weight.
Something Dr. Bernstein also suggests is if you are keeping your carbs down and still not losing weight that you cut your protein intake by 1/3 at one meal and then by 1/3 at a second meal if you are still not losing. That means you need to know how much protein you are eating per meal to start with and MyPlan or Fitday will help you get some baseline numbers to work with.