Are we herbivores?

[kaypeeoh]

Are you more like a dog or a rabbit?
Dr. William Roberts, editor of the American Journal of Cardiology and cardiovascular pathologist, is a perennial source of clever ideas on heart disease.

In a recent editorial, Dr. Roberts comments:






"Because humans get atherosclerosis, and atherosclerosis is a disease only of herbivorers, humans also must be herbivores. Most humans, of course, eat flesh, but that act does not make us carnivores. Carnivores and herbivores have different characteristics. (1) The teeth of carnivores are sharp; those of herbivores, flat (humans have some sharp teeth but most are flat for grinding the fruits, vegetables, and grains we are built to eat). (2) The intestinal tract of carnivores is short (about 3 times body length); that of herbivores, long (about 12 times body length). (Since I am 6 feet tall my intestinal tract should be about 60 feet long. As a consequence, if I eat bovine muscle [steak], it could take 5 days to course through those 20 yards.) (3) Body cooling for carnivores is done by panting because they have no ability to seat; although herbivores also can pant, they cool their bodies mainly by sweating. (4) Drinking fluids is by lapping them for the carnivore; it is by sipping them for the herbivore. (5) Vitamin C is made by the carnivore's own body; herbivores obtain their ascorbic acid only from their diet. Thus, although most human beings think we are carnivores or at least conduct their lives as if we were, basically humans are herbivores. If we could decrease our flesh intake to as few as 5 to 7 meals a week our health would improve substantially."



You can always count on Dr. Bill Roberts to come up with some clever observations.

I think he's right. Some of the most unhealthy people I've known have been serious meat eaters. Most of the vegetarians have been among the healthiest. (I say most because if a vegetarian still indulges in plenty of junk foods like chips, crackers, breakfast cereals, breads, etc., then they can be every bit as unhealthy as a meat eater.)

Should you become a vegetarian to gain control over coronary plaque and other aspects of health? I don't believe you have to. However, modern livestock raising practices have substantially modified the composition of meats. A steak in 2006, for instance, is not the same thing as a steak in 1896. The saturated and monounsaturated fat content are different, the pattern of fat "marbling" is different, the lean protein content is different. Meat is less healthy today than 100 years ago.

Take a lesson from Dr. Roberts' tongue-in-cheek but nonetheless provocative thoughts. Pardon me while I chew on some carrots.
Labels: Are you more like a dog or a rabbit?

[ReginaW]

Thus, although most human beings think we are carnivores or at least conduct their lives as if we were, basically humans are herbivores.

The good doctor seems to have forgotten the very real classification of omnivore, which is what we humans are, like bears, chickens, pigs and racoons!

[Dodger]

It's time to put Dr. Roberts out to pasture; to graze with the rest of the herbivores.

[K Walt]

"Because humans get atherosclerosis, and atherosclerosis is a disease only of herbivores"

Not quite. Dogs get atherosclerosis. And oddly, it goes hand in hand (paw in paw?) with diabetes. I presume dogs get diabetic when eating dry dog food based on corn and wheat.

And I'm not sure herbivores get atherosclerosis when eating their normal (grass and leaves) diet.

[Nancy LC]

Odd he never considered omnivore a possibility.
But there's so much to debunk in this. Where to start?
PART 6:
What Comparative Anatomy Does & Doesn't Tell Us about Human Diet (http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-6a.shtml)

I had a cat die of heart disease due to his high carb (conventional cat food) diet. :\

Myth #11: The human body is not designed for meat consumption.

Like that of other primates, the human digesting system can cope with many different diets, including meat-based, vegetarian (although some vegetable matter needs to be cooked to release the nutrition), fruitarian and omnivorous. Humans seem to be remarkably adaptable to different diets. Quite what we have been "designed" for is open to conjecture, and probably the most accurate statement would be to say that we have been designed to be quite flexible in our diets.

Anatomical comparisons are useful only as a rough guide of what food types we can cope with or not (for example, we do not have a ruminant, and so we could never be grazers) but in nature, the rule of the game is survival to reproduction and not optimum life-span and wellbeing. Our pretty universal digestive system has been pivotal in making the human species one of the most successful on this planet, and also means that we have the design to pretty much choose which diet we want to follow (although the more restrictive the diet, the more the possibility that certain nutritional needs will not be met).
http://www.energygrid.com/health/2002/06ap-stephenbyrnes.html

[kaypeeoh]

Odd he never considered omnivore a possibility.
But there's so much to debunk in this. Where to start?
PART 6:
What Comparative Anatomy Does & Doesn't Tell Us about Human Diet (http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-6a.shtml)

I had a cat die of heart disease due to his high carb (conventional cat food) diet. :\


http://www.energygrid.com/health/2002/06ap-stephenbyrnes.html

Only recently has it been discovered that cats have a higher need for taurine than what's supplied by cat food. That deficiency, not the grains, leads to heart disease. Best source of taurine: mice and voles. :-)

[Gostrydr]

In my many years of working in a health food store I must say that the vegetarians who came into our stores were some of the sickliest people I have ever seen. Bad teeth,bad hair,lack of vim and vigor and not a cup of muscle to be found anywhere.

Now this is not all of them,but a large majority of them.

I think pure vegan is a bad way to go. If you do lacot-ovo then I can see it being an ok way to eat.

Meat is the supreme food. We are equipped with HCL for the digestion of fat and protien and the not very mentioned ealstase which helps us digest fibrous meats.

As far as our ancestors,I think they were oppurtunistic eaters.
I think meat dominated their daily food intake and they would occasionally eat plants,but they only ate fruit when it was in season. The type of fruit they ate is still up to debate but it was more of a rose hip type of fruit from the research that I have seen.

[Nancy LC]

Only recently has it been discovered that cats have a higher need for taurine than what's supplied by cat food. That deficiency, not the grains, leads to heart disease. Best source of taurine: mice and voles. :-)
Funny that they're getting diabetes, obesity and other diseases of the metabolism from the high carb diets though... and that goes right along with the heart disease.

[Rachel1]

Most humans, of course, eat flesh, but that act does not make us carnivores. Thus, although most human beings think we are carnivores or at least conduct their lives as if we were, basically humans are herbivores. If we could decrease our flesh intake to as few as 5 to 7 meals a week our health would improve substantially.

If human beings are herbivores, why do we eat meat? That's just silly. Put a chunk of meat in front of a true herbivore and they won't eat it. If humans did not have the digestive processes to handle meat, we wouldn't eat it - just like we don't eat grass or twigs. Clearly our digestive processes can handle meat as well as vegetable matter, and therefore we are omnivores. We CHOOSE whether to eat meat or veggies (or both). True herbivores (or carnivores) don't get a choice.

Rachel

[GeorgeMead]

It's time to put Dr. Roberts out to pasture; to graze with the rest of the herbivores. :wave: :agree: :yum: :D :thup:

[doreen T]

Dr William C. Roberts MD, of the Baylor Heart & Vascular Hospital in Dallas, editor-in-chief (http://www.elsevier.com/wps/find/journaleditorialboard.cws_home/525048/editorialboard) of the independent "American Journal of Cardiology" also serves on the advisory board (http://www.pcrm.org/about/) to the pcrm. So it's possible he has an anti-meat, animal rights agenda.

Just FYI ;)


Doreen

[GeorgeMead]

If human beings are herbivores, why do we eat meat? That's just silly. Put a chunk of meat in front of a true herbivore and they won't eat it. If humans did not have the digestive processes to handle meat, we wouldn't eat it - just like we don't eat grass or twigs. Clearly our digestive processes can handle meat as well as vegetable matter, and therefore we are omnivores. We CHOOSE whether to eat meat or veggies (or both). True herbivores (or carnivores) don't get a choice.Exactly, Have you ever tried to feed a dog a carrot?

[gryfonclaw]

Exactly, Have you ever tried to feed a dog a carrot?

Well, in all fairness, my dog will eat anything. :help:

[Nancy LC]

Yeah, I don't think dogs are quite the right species to ask that about. :p Anyone else read Marley and Me? I always think about the story where the dog ate all that mango or papaya and had orange poop.

Rats are also omnivorous. So are crows. Man, crows do love their meat.

[kallyn]

If you scroll to the bottom of this page there is a large yellow table which highlights the similarities and differences between our digestion system and that of a dog (carnivorous) and a sheep (herbivorous).

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/carn_herb_comparison.html

Anyone who says we are more like the sheep than the dog is selling something.

[Maerow]

That article is way way off base. We are neither carnivores or herbavores, we are omnivores. We can eat both meat and veggies.

I wouldn't trust a doctor that either doesn't know this, or is denying it due to some kind of agenda.

[64dodger]

Dr William C. Roberts MD, of the Baylor Heart & Vascular Hospital in Dallas, editor-in-chief (http://www.elsevier.com/wps/find/journaleditorialboard.cws_home/525048/editorialboard) of the independent "American Journal of Cardiology" also serves on the advisory board (http://www.pcrm.org/about/) to the pcrm. So it's possible he has an anti-meat, animal rights agenda.

Just FYI ;)


Doreen

Do ya think!!!

[Wyvrn]

The intestinal tract of carnivores is short (about 3 times body length); that of herbivores, long (about 12 times body length). (Since I am 6 feet tall my intestinal tract should be about 60 feet long. As a consequence, if I eat bovine muscle [steak], it could take 5 days to course through those 20 yards.)This guy is a physician?? The human intestinal tract, including the small intestine and the colon, is around 25' long - less than half the claimed 60'.

Wyv

[gryfonclaw]

This guy is a physician?? The human intestinal tract, including the small intestine and the colon, is around 25' long - less than half the claimed 60'.

Wyv

This whole report is clearly a shoddily disguised piece of pro-vegan propaganda.

[Lisa N]

Exactly, Have you ever tried to feed a dog a carrot?

In all fairness, I once had a dog that loved carrots and would do nearly anything for a grape. She also died of diabetes because my parents indulged her in table food and way too many treats after I got married and moved out. The dog we had prior to that one died of heart disease and never got anything but dried dog food.
I don't think dogs are a good comparison. I mean, c'mon...they'll eat out of the cat's litter box. :p In general, though, critters that eat what they weren't designed to eat become sickly.
As much as the author would like to believe that we are born to be herbivores, we are solidly omnivorous.

[LilithD]

I've known healthy and sickly people of either persuasion. I used to be a healthy and vimful vegetarian, but I ate plenty of animal products. Also, I still had serious meat cravings.

Consider this, too: many people tend to experiment with vegetarianism when they are young. So logically there should be a larger proportion of healthy people than in the general population.

[LilithD]

Also: there isn't that much in the way of calorific food one can eat uncooked. Only a very small population in a very lush environment would find enough fruit, seeds, nuts and digestible greens to survive. There would be very little protein, unless on ate the odd egg: without combining grains and pulses, vegans can't get enough amino acids to form protein.

So, to form larger populations before we discovered cooking, we must have started eating insects and anything larger we could kill and digest raw.

[Wyvrn]

My dogs love carrots too, but they come out the other end looking pretty much like they did going in. In other words, they don't get digested.

Wyv

[waywardsis]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we closer to chimps than to any other animal? Warlike, omniverous, etc etc...

I wonder how he'd account for the large number of people in the world who are gluten intolerant? Or who can't handle large amounts of carbs (like all of us here!)

What a tool this dude is.

And I know dogs who'll happily eat veggies, but my cats absolutely refuse. They won't even eat around them. Favorite food - chicken hearts (lotsa taurine), kidneys and liver!

[Angeline]

Also: there isn't that much in the way of calorific food one can eat uncooked. Only a very small population in a very lush environment would find enough fruit, seeds, nuts and digestible greens to survive. There would be very little protein, unless on ate the odd egg: without combining grains and pulses, vegans can't get enough amino acids to form protein.

So, to form larger populations before we discovered cooking, we must have started eating insects and anything larger we could kill and digest raw.

Meat is just as calorific raw, as it is cooked. That what our early ancestors ate. If you look at omnivores who are predominantely vegetarian (like the great apes), they basically spend all day eating.

[Angeline]

Hey I got a good question for you guys .

What do vegans do when they get mice in their house? :D

My DH suggested that they use live traps and release them, so their neighbours get the problem instead of them :)

I currently have that problem, that's why I thought about it.

[arc]

KPO didn't provide a link, but this came from the Heart Scan Doc blog: http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2006/12/are-you-more-like-dog-or-rabbit.html

It is disconcerting to me that this blogger bought these ridiculous statements without question. It throws a bit of doubt on the rest of his writings, IMO.

I think he's right. Some of the most unhealthy people I've known have been serious meat eaters. Most of the vegetarians have been among the healthiest.

C'mon - what kind of unsubstantiated statement is that? That is his proof?

[ReginaW]

KPO didn't provide a link, but this came from the Heart Scan Doc blog: http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2006/12/are-you-more-like-dog-or-rabbit.html

It is disconcerting to me that this blogger bought these ridiculous statements without question. It throws a bit of doubt on the rest of his writings, IMO.



C'mon - what kind of unsubstantiated statement is that? That is his proof?

I left a comment yesterday morning about the doc being on the advisory board of PCRM, thus an agenda - it still isn't posted....nothing flaming, nothing sarcastic, just the fact he's on the advisory board of an organization with a clear agenda.....I would have thought the comment would be up by now - wondering why it's not!


UPDATE: My comment was published, so maybe it was just an issue of Dr. Davis having the time to moderate the comments and publish?

[Nancy LC]

Yeah, I'm disappointed he wrote that too. I've been enjoying his blog except for his saturated fat phobia. He does have some good advice about supplements, eating wheat and other things that resonate with me. But that last one hit a sour note.

[Azlocarb]

In the wild, wolves(closest wild relative to the domestic dog) eat quite a bit of vegetable matter from there prays stomachs. There is a way of feeding our domestic wolves(dogs dna is not far removed from the wolf) to mimic the way wolves eat in the wild. It is called BARF(Bones And Raw Food). Basically you take a raw rabbit or chicken and throw it in a blender with some greens that a rabbit might eat and feed it to your dog. They say the dogs thrive on it. Do a web search on BARF and you will get all the info.

[Wyvrn]

Basically you take a raw rabbit or chicken and throw it in a blender with some greens that a rabbit might eat and feed it to your dog. They say the dogs thrive on it. Do a web search on BARF and you will get all the info.The blender part really isn't necessary. They are quite capable of crushing bones (depending on the size of the dog, of course), and it's probably good for them. Our corgies at about 25 pounds each can eat a whole chicken thigh or drumstick, bones and all in about 15 seconds, and have been doing so several times a week for the last 4 years with no choking incidents. We don't give them raw veggies since they can't digest them, but we do give them naturally pickled (fermented) veggies on occasion.

Wyv

[Azlocarb]

Wyv,
The fermented veges makes since as stomach contents of prey would be similarly conditioned to help with digestion. I have considered feeding my previous dog BARF but as he was a large Rottie I did not think I could afford it. Now we have a mastiff something cross, and I have no doubt that he would break the bank. With me the wife and two kids the food bill is already huge. Even eating dry food our new dog is much better off then where he was headed at the human society.

[LilithD]

I was wondering about the prey's stomach content being eaten Is there any real proof of this happening? I would have though that the hydrochloric acid would make it horrible and unhealthy (bad for teeth and throat). I speak as a former bulimic...

[Angeline]

Wyv,
Now we have a mastiff something cross, and I have no doubt that he would break the bank. With me the wife and two kids the food bill is already huge. Even eating dry food our new dog is much better off then where he was headed at the human society.

Just going a on limb here, but I don't think the dog needs to be fed T-Bones. Maybe a talk with a local butcher could unearth some cheap unpopular cuts or some leftover bones.

[harry1]

If you scroll to the bottom of this page there is a large yellow table which highlights the similarities and differences between our digestion system and that of a dog (carnivorous) and a sheep (herbivorous).

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/carn_herb_comparison.html

Anyone who says we are more like the sheep than the dog is selling something.
Thanks Kallyn....as this was the first time i have ever seen the comparrison between the 3 species. I'm still new at all this and learning but my question is if we do not need bacterial to digest food as herbivorous then why are the experts saying we need ''Probiotics'' for optimal health. Please school me one way or the other on this. Thanks for this great thread.....

[Wyvrn]

I was wondering about the prey's stomach content being eaten Is there any real proof of this happening? I would have though that the hydrochloric acid would make it horrible and unhealthy (bad for teeth and throat). I speak as a former bulimic...I don't know about proof of them eating the stomach, but there isn't any hydrochloric acid produced in the stomachs of the usual (herbivorous) prey animals. The pickle we make is naturally fermented, much like the contents of a ruminent's stomach. Our dogs love it so much, when we give it to them with meat they will eat the pickle first every time.

Wyv

[Nancy LC]

Those are ruminants though, a little bigger prey than most dogs go for. I know that cats usually omit eating certain parts of their rodent catches. I know that mice and rats are omniverous though, so they're probably pretty yucky tasting in the belly.

[kallyn]

Thanks Kallyn....as this was the first time i have ever seen the comparrison between the 3 species. I'm still new at all this and learning but my question is if we do not need bacterial to digest food as herbivorous then why are the experts saying we need ''Probiotics'' for optimal health. Please school me one way or the other on this. Thanks for this great thread.....

Hi Harry! If you read the information contained in the rest of the page it starts to address some of your questions. The herbivorous animals require bacteria in their actual stomach to digest their food. They do not have digestive juices of their own, and the bacteria do almost all of the digestion for them. The carnivorous animal, on the other hand, has a bacterially sterile gut with lots of digestive juices and there are no bacteria present in the digestive process at all - until the food hits the colon, at which point the bacteria provide a vital function.

So we do need bacteria - but in our colon, not in our stomachs. Hope that helps some. :)

[harry1]

So we do need bacteria - but in our colon, not in our stomachs. Hope that helps some. :)
That does help and again thanks for posting the info. :thup: