confused and scared to eat fat.

[silence]

i have read the posts on fat and found them very interesting, but my experience has been very mixed.

at first, i lost wieght and then it went up and over my weight before dieting.

i ate enough fat back then, i loved to eat cheese with mayonaise as dip.... (still love it)

i stopped that and my mom tells me i still shouldnt eat that much fat.

so now i grill all my food with the forman grill, to let all the oil drip out. and then put them on paper towel to absorb all the extra oil.....

:confused:

[Andy Davies]

Hi Silence, and firstly welcome to the Active lowcarber forum.

I understand how confusing it is to hear that fat is OK to eat, when all your life you have been indoctrinated to believe that fat is bad and unsafe to eat, and will make you fat, as well as give you other health problems.

Initially, it will have to be an act of faith that you are not doing something dangerous, and harmful to your health. But there is a lot of supporting evidence which you can look up to back up what we say. I have two really important things to say to you in a moment, but first of all look around the forum at the amount of weight people have lost on this way of eating. In my own case, I have lost more than 70 pounds. It really works!

And now for the important statements:

(1) In the absence of carbohydrates, fat is not fattening . This is really important to understand. Fat will be fattening, if you are eating more than about 40 grams of carbohydrate per day. So you have to eliminate virtually all carbs from your diet. Then you can safely eat fat, without putting on weight.

(2) Eating fat does not make you fat. In fact, the reverse is true. It is the fat in your diet which attacks and disposes of your body fat. It is also fat that stops you feeling hungry. But in eating fat, you need to do two other very important things. Firstly, drink vast amounts of water. Some people here drink 5 litres of it per day. Secondly, you have to eat enough calories, or else the system fails. "Enough" calories is usually 10-12 times your current body weight. This is very important, and something many people do wrong, especially newcomers, who have been told all their lives that to lose weight you have to eat less. This, as you have probably already found out yourself, does not work, because you can eat very little, and still gain weight - if what you are eating is carbohydrates.

OK, I can talk all night about theory. Be brave enough to do this experiment. Try it out for just one week. In that time, cut down all your carbohydrates to just 20 or 30 grams per day (and that is very little indeed). Eat unrestricted protein and fat. Then tell me after a week how your weight compares and how you feel. Better still, get all the tests done first: cholesterol, triglycerides, etc etc. And then get them re-tested after say 3 months. The results should convince you that this way of eating is safe and beneficial.

And tell your mother that if your results prove she is right, you will heed her advice, but for now you want to test out this way of eating and see if it works for you - after all her advice has not made you slim,has it?

Andy

[SlimShAdY]

it is really confusing..lol I'm still scared to eat it...But think about it this way....When you wern't eating fat did you lose weight?..
I'm guessing not...and you were probley eating alot of carbs...Think about it..lol

Hey, if your still scared your gonna gain weight...Do what I do, weigh yourself everyday just to make sure the scale isn't going up..lol...It wont, as long as ya do it in the morning before any food or waters in you..lol :roll: :roll:

[lauraW]

Hi Andy...

What a post that was...ty for all the info. Sometimes the stuff in the book can be confusing..you just kind of laid it all out there for us all...

Thank you very much.. :)

Laura

[Andy Davies]

Hi Laura,

Well, it did feel rather like giving birth to an elephant, but you're welcome. And I'm glad you found it useful.

Andy

[LC Sponge]

Originally posted by Andy Davies
Well, it did feel rather like giving birth to an elephant I believe we have another Ernest Hemmingway in our midst. ;)

[doreen T]

Originally posted by Andy Davies

Well, it did feel rather like giving birth to an elephant, but you're welcome. OUCH!!

:daze:

Doreen

[doreen T]

Actually, to take the fact one step further (it's no theory .. this is firmly established in science and FACT ;)) .. it is the absence of INSULIN that makes this possible.

Insulin is required to assist glucose to enter the cells to be used for fuel. If there's more glucose than is required at the moment, then insulin will cause it to be stored as FAT. It will also cause any excess fat from the diet to be stored as fat, since it's not required as fuel (there's already too much glucose). Another role of insulin is to inhibit fat-burning. It prevents the fat cells from releasing their fat stores (both as a biological "conservation" mechanism, and to prevent the fat from competing with glucose as a fuel source).

When you restrict carbohydrates in your diet, you effectively reduce the amount of insulin produced, as your body switches over to burning ketones for fuel instead of glucose. Without so much insulin floating around, your fat cells will be able to release stored fat more easily. Without so much insulin floating around, the fat you EAT will not be stored as fat either.

So what happens to the fat you eat?? Well, some will be used in the repair and structure of cell walls throughout the body, and to make vital hormones. Some may used for energy. The rest is WASTED. That's right, wasted. The fat you eat is broken down into fatty acids in the bowel, by the action of enzymes and bile. These fatty acids are absorbed into the bloodstream and taken to the liver, where they are further processed ... into ketones, and into other fatty acid components. Some of the ketones may be used for fuel. Mostly they are excreted in the urine, stool and breath (via the lungs). Unused free fatty acid components are also excreted. Why?? Because once fatty acids are broken down into the smaller ketone, acetone and fatty esterols .. they CANNOT be converted back into fat. That's basic Biochemistry 101. Without insulin, they cannot be forced into storage in the fat cells. So they are eliminated. This is what Atkins refers to as the "Metabolic Advantage".

My explanation is very simplistic .. there's more involved, such as the release of glucagon from the pancreas, etc ... If you're truly curious about this, we had an excellent discussion a few months ago on this subject. You can read about it starting here (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?threadid=21905&perpage=15&pagenumber=2) .. it's a long thread, with lots of lofty discussion :read:

What does this have to do with calories and eating fat? Well, when you're wasting fat, you're wasting the potential energy (ie the calories) that it would otherwise provide. Lets look at a sample day's intake:20g carbs (80 calories)
120g protein (480 calories)
120g fat (1080 calories)
total calories = 1660, and 65% of that is fat calories. However, research shows that by the process of wasting fatty acids, as I described above .. the actual caloric contribution of dietary fat, in the absence of insulin is only about half, or roughly 5 calories per gram. Given that knowledge, lets have another look at the sample day's intake:20g carbs (80 calories)
120g protein (480 calories)
120g fat (approx. 600 calories)
total calories = 1180, of which 51% comes from fat.There is plenty of evidence to show that consistently eating below a certain caloric level will result in the slowing of the metabolic rate, as an adaptive "survival" mecanism. The body thinks it's starving, so it turns the thermostat down to conserve fuel. Your engines will run on less and less. In other words the less you eat on a continual basis, the less you will NEED on a permanent basis. This will only work against you in the long run, making it increasingly difficult to lose fat weight, and also making it easier to GAIN fat if you return to a carbohydrate & insulin-based way of eating. So eat up, and especially eat FAT :)

The other question is how does eating fat stimulate the burning of BODY fat?? Well, it acts like kindling. It primes the liver into fat-burning and ketone-production mode. Once this ketone production is in full swing, and the dietary fat is used up, the liver starts looking for more source of fat to process. It turns to your body fat stores :cool:.

Hope this is helpful,

Doreen

[Andy Davies]

Wow! Thanks Doreen, looks like this forum is going to be awash with baby elephants before long!

Andy

[dizzyd]

Andy and Doreen! I have just had my eyes opened!! I began LC'ing only one short week ago, on the advice of my father, and just put blind faith in him that it would work. I've always understood the theory behind ketosis (I used to be low-fat dieting naysayer! :o )

Now I really honestly understand what really is going on. And I have been wondering where the fat went, but didn't want to ask!

Thanks both!!

I love learning more and more about this wonderful way of life!

Cheers!

Dizzy D
:wave:

[NettyG]

Doreen and Andy, what fabulous, informative posts! Thank you so much! I have the book, but as a Newbie, your posts gave me sooo much more information as to what is happening in my body! I was explaining the process to a girlfriend of mine today, attempting to share how this all worked, I wish I had read your posts first!

Thank you again!

[allisonm]

I've been eating fat for the past seven months on Atkins but I was afraid of fat too, until this week. I've been reading The Schwarzbein Principle and she's made me afraid NOT to eat fat. Apparently fat is essential in countless metabolic processes and if you don't get enough you'll have osteoporosis, low levels of sex hormones, high LDL cholesterol, arterial plaquing, and on and on.

I'm not following her program but recommend the book. :thup:

By the way, welcome! :wave:

Allison

[silence]

it is so hard to keep good faith when every thing around me is telling me no. and i read books that say atkin's diet and other low carb diets are just fad diets....

so i should not grill my food on the foreman grill then? or should i grill it and then drink the fat? lol

i have been eating low carb for 8 months and i havent lost, i v gained! :eek:

[wbahn]

Are you tracking what you eat?

Try doing this - set up a journal (if you don't already have one) in the My Journal / Bootcamp forum group and for at least one week track everything you eat and drink. Be careful not to change your eating habits. Report them there. Then the folks here can look over your intake and spot any LC killers that might be sneaking in.

We'll try to get you through this.

[Sh'ra]

Andy and Doreen, those posts were excellent, and reminded me of my own need to get back to "basics" and out of this stall.

Silence,
Use the foreman grill if you like, just don't paper towel the fat off, and don't trim your meat heavily. Leaving the fat on while cooking the meat improves the flavor significantly, and adds moisture so you're not eating some gross, dry hunk of meat. Feel free to eat chicken with the SKIN ON, all crispy - yummmm!

I can attest to this WOE - look at my stats - and, I have been playing around with adding some carbs back in my diet - guess what? Stalled right out. Losing weight/fat by eating protein and fat while avoiding carbohydrates works.

Shalom,
Sh'ra

[silence]

i will do that! i am gonna go post a journal in the bootcamp, please come check it out some time :D

[Bloom]

I LOVE you guys!! You have ALL the answers!!

[valmommy]

Thanks so much for the links, they helped immensely!!! I'm showing this to my hubby asap - he's LC'ing because I am, but he doesn't "believe" in it to the degree I do ;)

[Ruralgurl]

Wow I followed a path of links in others journals and found this post. Thanks everyone responsible!!! To be honest I had not even noticed the "Best of" forum before.
I had been sitting at 193 since the end of January. I started back on Atkins at the beginning of January. I had an initial loss of about 17 lbs, and then stalled! I did not worry too much about this as I am being patient and felt better, but when I took a look at my calorie intake at Fitday it appeared that I was not eating enough. I am not a calorie counter and I was not hungry at all and I was surprised that my intake was so low. I realized after reading this post that the only way to boost my calories was to get more fat. So that is what I did in the form of butter, olive oil, and heavy cream so far!
Now, I am just recuperating from some abdominal surgey last Friday but I weighed in at the hospital at 196 :eek:
I am glad to report that this morning I weighed in at 187 :D. I will change my stats next week just to make sure, but I would like to report that I have more energy and I am feeling great.
Upping the FAT really has helped!
For anyone who thinks it would be the surgery, I am one of those people that usually gain weight at the hospital!!

[Rob]

ya know one thing that worries me about LCing is the constant battle to prevent constipation ( sorry I had to say it )


I take psyllium husk powder every morning with a protien shake and sometimes I add it to a high protien frostie

I t just strikes me that if I was not LCing I would not be worrying about this and it concerns me that I need to take the occasional senna tablets to go :confused:

does anyone relate to this ?

[lkonzelman]

Watned this post to come to the front again!!!

[Groggy60]

My experience will LCing has made me more regular than I have ever been. From the beginning I set out to find some low-carb foods with fibre and I discovered pecans: low carb, high fibre, good fat.

My body's experience with fat follows what Doreen explaing earlier in this thead. It is how regular I have become, that makes me truly believe a calorie is not a calorie. Eat enough fat and some fibre to keep it moving and it seems to go right through you.

[Rob]

you are very lucky , most people here have to use extra fibre in the form of psyllium husk .

I for one was constantly constipated . I think it is pretty common for people not to load up vegetables because they are so limited on LC eating and pretty boring too . Dont get me wrong , I love all veggies .

I just want to say that after a year of LCing I have decided to hang up my LC boots because it is just not working for me this time round .

I am dissappointed and frustrated because what ever I do the extra weight that I gained will just not come off . I have gained 10 lbs since Christmas .

I am now eating normally and intelligently where nothing is forbidden and I feel released from this prison .

Sorry to have to say that

[lkonzelman]

Sorry you feel that way Rob but it sounds like you weren't eating the mandatory 2-3 cups of daily veggies.

I believe the Atkins induction phase has one of the lowest carb counts to be at and there are still so many veggies allowed (http://atkinscenter.com/Archive/2001/12/15-464579.html) daily.

Plus after induction you can increase the daily amounts. I believe the balance of fat, protein and healthy carbs is why I feel so healthy!

Now that I don't have to watch fat or calories a giant salad w/ good dressing is now delicious... unlike when I was low fat dieting.

I know because of my chronic lifelong weight issues I will always have to watch what I eat, but I find this diverse and healthy way to eat has opened my "prison" doors and now I eat happily to satisfaction everyday without guilt.

Just my perspective.

[Rob]

have you had your serum lipids checked yet ?

I suggest you do . I had a shock after learning that my levels shot up while LCing in the early days . As I have a history of hypercholesterolaemia in my family , I got a real fright .

I was eating too much saturated fats and had to change my eating habits . After I gained that weight ,I found that whatever I did ,nothing would get the extra flab off .

I found for myself , in the early days that the only way I could loose was by doing LC and lower fat . I know this is contra to what you hear ,but I found that if I ate alot of fat , I actually put on weight . So in my experience and YMMV , I dont believe in the doctrine " eat fat to loose fat " .

I am just plain dissappointed and have given it all up for a fully balanced diet , not dependent on potassium and cal/mag tablets for my minerals and being terrified of constipation with its consequences.

:wave:

[ysabella]

After four months lowcarbing, they are about the same, but my triglycerides and VLDLs are in the basement, baby.

And that's where I want them.

[last15]

ON the subject of fat changing its caloric output in the absence of carbs- does that mean a 1500 cal diet with 75-80 grams of fat is really only being seen by my body as 1000? Could that be what is causing some not to be successful- the "starvation" mode effect? What are some low carb snacks that will boost up the counts besides cheese and pork rinds? Also, I am on ediets, an online resource, that allows me to do the Atkins diet and still plans my menu for me- but it is keeping me at 1400-1500 calories on the induction phase- should I increase that to eliminate the chance of starvation mode? Also, the only veggies it allows me are ones that I have never heard of or wouldn't eat- any ideas? Today is day two for me and I actually lost 2 pounds of water weight overnight- this from a good digital scale that I use everyday so I know it is accurate! WooHoo

TTFN
Nannie

[justcindy]

Wow, excellent thread, thanks so much for the info!!!!! :)

[stilt0]

Hello all,
Fascinating stuff about the way dietary fat CANT become body fat. Doreen and ... sorry, Andy I think.... you are a thrilling read.
I'm really curious about the people who stall on Low Carbing , even the people who keep their dietary carbs way low. So I've been doing a bit of reading myself about the way both protein and fat can be ( to varying degrees ) converted to glucose (ie. carbs) by :

(a) in the case of DIETARY protein: gluconeogenesis

and

(b) in the case of DIETARY fat : the glycerol pathway (I'm sure there's a noun for this, perhaps glycerogenesis ? - help!)

Gluconeogenesis is by far the more efficient of these two mechanisms , apparently , - up around 70 % ie. 1 complete protein gram= .7 of a gram of glucose


' glycero- genesis ' (sic) is apparently not nearly as efficient, something like 10 %. Looking for evolutionary ( or God motivated - if you're so inclined) reasons for this difference , it would seem that because ketones ( ie. the other way dietary fat is used metabolically) can provide all the energy needs of the body, including all but a very small amount of glucose required by the brain, you don't actually need ANY carbohydrates to be perfectly healthy. This is probably why dietary fat to satisfy energy needs and appetite is THE best way to lose weight ( and live a whole lot longer into the bargain, because insulin - the aging and body fat depositing hormone- is not asked to the metabolic party

So I wonder if the glucose provided by protein (gluconeogenesis) has exactly the same insulin ( and thereby body fat deposit) triggering effect as dietary glucose (carbs) For that matter glycero-genesis (sic) would be the same , but because it's so much less efficient , in the absence of dietary carbs, most of the resulting glucose would probably be snapped up by the brain , thus keeping it off your waistline!

The obvious implications of these gluconeogenesis and glycero-genesis factors for weight loss is that to a lesser extent than dietary carbs and to a far lesser extent than dietary protein, dietary fat provides very few metabolic carbs.

The human body is so clever at depositing fat ( with obvious survival advantages ). Except with dietary fat . Good news for people who want to lose weight. People who are fed up with the ' boring ' food choices on Atkins induction and are stalled in their weight loss anyway could try reducing their protein intake and doing more weights . The tissue building and rebuilding requirements of anaerobic (ie. weights) exercise snap up the available amino acids leaving fewer for gluconeogenesis. Aerobic exercise has countless cardiovascular benefits , not to mention the stress reducing effects. But as a way to lose weight it's like shutting the gate after the horse has bolted.
By the way, I for one, am really prone to being constipated . A daily teaspoon of psyllium husks will make anyone comfortably regular . The capsules are useless for the hard cases - like me. There just isn't enough fibre in them. Unless I suppose , you swallowed ten at a time - very expensive , surely!

So Doreen and Andy, make this unintelligble rave about gluconeogenesis and glycero-genesis (sic) accessible to all those stalled low carbers out there. Carbohydrate (glucose) is and always was the essential ingredient in putting on weight. But dietary carbs are not the only villain. Our bodies simply have more insidious ways of coming up with metabolic glucose.

[stilt0]

me again,
More reading, and no wonder I couldn't find the noun for glucose production from fat (or the glycerol component of fat anyway). Because this process is also called gluconeogenesis : ie. production of 'new' glucose from some non carbohydrate source. In the case of human metabolism , that means amino acids (protein) or fat.

sorry!

Can someone enlighten me about whether free fatty acids in the blood from dietary fat consumption are transformed directly by muscle cells into ATP for use as energy , or is there some prior conversion through gluconeogenesis to glucose which then is used for energy production. Where are the ketone bodies actually produced . In the liver? In the bloodstream? In the various other cells that need energy to function? Or perhaps all three? Come on , I need to know!

Also what actually triggers gluconeogenesis (from either fats or protein). Surely the rate varies as dietary carbs are restricted. Presumably energy needs (activity levels at the time) play a big role in determining the rate . And maybe while your body is adjusting to being a fat burner (from either body stores or dietary sources) -which I read somewhere can take up to 20 weeks , the rate is a lot higher . In other words what determines how efficiently free fatty acids in the blood will be used as ketone body energy factories . The efficiency with which body fat deposits are mobilized into free fatty acids must also play a really important role.

And even more importantly , can the glucose produced from gluconeogenesis from protein and fat be then stored back as body fat, with a little help from it's old friend insulin?

Does dietary protein, ie. amino acids in the blood, become glucose (via gluconeogenesis) . And do the muscle cells sort of digest themselves (again through gluconeogenesis) to provide energy for their brothers and sisters . Which cells get to go on doing the work and which get eaten by gluconeogenesis.

The mind boggles!

Can anyone enlighten me?

I'm convinced that properly understanding gluconeogenesis holds the key to why some punters stall with their weight loss , for seemingly no apparent dietary carb reason. So if you are stalled maybe the trick is to restrict protein intake a bit and up the fats, because gluconeogenesis is so inefficient with fat and comparatively much more efficient with protein. Indeed the trick with optimal health and effortless weight loss may not just be to cut out dietary carbs but to ensure that gluconeogenesis doesn't surreptitiously set up glucose factory in your body anyway and with it's nasty little friend insulin , scuttle all your best laid plans .

I suppose we could all just go back to calorie restricted 'food pyramid ' eating and spend the rest of our lives hungry and unhappy!

I don't think so.

cheers,
Stuart

[Meg_S]

I just wanted you thank you guys for the great information!! This is something I've believed in, but always wondered about and didn't really "get," making discussions with people who are anti-fat, and even pro-low carb (my husband) but sceptical about the very large amounts of fat difficult because there were some things about this woe I could not explain.

Have a great weekend,
Meg

[oowwoo]

I just had to reply to this post...actually was linked here from another board to read this about fat...

I've been KISSING (eating nothing but roasted turkey and legal veggies), for the last 4 days. I actually added in an extra serving of veggies yesterday and used yesterday's menu to plug into Fitday.com (just to see exactly what I am really eating here). Would you believe, I started on day one at 158 lbs (which I somehow had gone up to from 154 about 5 weeks ago--not doing anything differently with my regular lowcarb fare), AND today I am at 157.4--5 days into this!! Here is my breakdown from Fitday (I am not convinced that reducing calories OR adding fat for that mater is the answer to my problem --since I have been stuck here for 4.5 years!!!):

Cals: 914
Fat: 56 gms
Carbs 16
Prot 87 (maybe too much??)

%'s
Fats: 56%
Carbs: 5%
Prot: 39%

I don't know what else to tweak!
Thanks for letting me vent!

Carol

[Natrushka]

I've been KISSING (eating nothing but roasted turkey and legal veggies), for the last 4 days. I actually added in an extra serving of veggies yesterday and used yesterday's menu to plug into Fitday.com (just to see exactly what I am really eating here).

Would you believe, I started on day one at 158 lbs (which I somehow had gone up to from 154 about 5 weeks ago--not doing anything differently with my regular lowcarb fare), AND today I am at 157.4--5 days into this!! Carol, correct me if I am wrong, but KISS isn't about limiting fat - it's about avoiding frankenfoods and sugar replacements and getting back to basics. Basics, according to the Atkins center is aiming for 65% fat.

Can I believe that your weight has shot up eating 900 calories a day? You bet I can. This is typically what happens when you restirct calories too much for too long.

-Nat

[becky160]

oops please read above

[becky160]

Hi,
Remember that you need to induce your body to start burning fat and get into Ketosis. the only way to burn fat, is by eating fat. don´t worry about fat consumption, worry about getting less than 20 gms of carbs.

Try that for a week, ok and see if it works for you. It should.
If you do no loose weight then try eliminating all carbs consumption. If that don't work neither, then you have a metabolic resistance.

[oowwoo]

Thanks--I pulled out my Atkins book again the other night and re-read the chapter on Metabolically Resistant people...(i.e. that would be me...I havent' lost a thing on regular induction).
So, here I am as of yesterday, starting Fat fast (had done it quite some time ago, but only lost a lb. and promptly gained it back going back to induction).

Carol

[rosemam]

THIS is an excellent thread. I was very confused before abou the entire high calorie/high fat equals weight loss. I wasn't sure how this was possible. I was doing the high fat/low calorie thing. So here is my question...Since I'm a little obsessive, I know I will continue to count calories, but this time I will count to make sure I'm not going too low. Where should I try to keep the cals?

[Nicki]

Rosemam, they say you should be eating 10-12 times your body weight in calories a day. Good luck on your new endeavor.

I have a question...My cholesterol has gone way up after being on Atkin's for 5 months. Does anyone know what I should cut back on? I know I eat too much red meat and use too much heavy cream so I've cut back on those but I'm not willing to quit the diet. My stats aren't current...I am now down to 163! Thanks for any advise! Nicki

[doreen T]

..I have a question...My cholesterol has gone way up after being on Atkin's for 5 months. Does anyone know what I should cut back on? I know I eat too much red meat and use too much heavy cream so I've cut back on those but I'm not willing to quit the diet. My stats aren't current...I am now down to 163! Thanks for any advise! Nicki
hi Nicki,

I've replied to your question here (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=138915). YOu're actually doing just fine :thup:


Doreen

[wcollier]

What does this have to do with calories and eating fat? Well, when you're wasting fat, you're wasting the potential energy (ie the calories) that it would otherwise provide. Lets look at a sample day's intake:20g carbs (80 calories)
120g protein (480 calories)
120g fat (1080 calories)
total calories = 1660, and 65% of that is fat calories. However, research shows that by the process of wasting fatty acids, as I described above .. the actual caloric contribution of dietary fat, in the absence of insulin is only about half, or roughly 5 calories per gram. Given that knowledge, lets have another look at the sample day's intake:20g carbs (80 calories)
120g protein (480 calories)
120g fat (approx. 600 calories)
total calories = 1180, of which 51% comes from fat.There is plenty of evidence to show that consistently eating below a certain caloric level will result in the slowing of the metabolic rate, as an adaptive "survival" mecanism. The body thinks it's starving, so it turns the thermostat down to conserve fuel. Your engines will run on less and less. In other words the less you eat on a continual basis, the less you will NEED on a permanent basis. This will only work against you in the long run, making it increasingly difficult to lose fat weight, and also making it easier to GAIN fat if you return to a carbohydrate & insulin-based way of eating. So eat up, and especially eat FAT :)

So what becomes the "cutoff" point for "the absence of insulin"? If one is increasing carbs past the Induction level, when does this metabolic advantage no longer exist?

So the 10-12X rule we see kicking around should actually be higher?

Wanda

[wcollier]

So the 10-12X rule we see kicking around should actually be higher?
Ignore this! I never did excell at math. :rolleyes: But I'm still curious about what the "absence of insulin" is defined as.

Wanda

[doreen T]

hi Wanda,

Sorry I didn't see your post previously :( The "absence of insulin" refers more to its lack of action than its lack of physical presence, and is relative to glucagon as the dominant metabolic hormone. As I'd stated in that same post, my explanation is very simplistic. The intent was to allay the fat phobias of lowcarbers who have a hard time accepting that they won't blow up as big as a house if they eat more than the Food Pyramid levels of fat ... There is a link in that post to another thread, which does offer more in-depth discussion on the matter .. http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?p=182411#post182411

Insulin is always present, even in a ketogenic diet, although the amount is very low. Because there are a few cells in the body which can only use glucose (red blood cells, the retina of the eye and a small part of the mid-brain), a nominal amount of insulin is secreted to enable the uptake of glucose .. which is made quite nicely in the liver from protein, via the process of gluconeogenesis. The only time where there is a true absence of insulin is when the beta cells of the pancreas fail .. resulting in Type 1 diabetes.


As to the "10 - 12 x" thing ... to the best of my knowledge, it's intended to be a ballpark guide to aim at, offered to folks who are evidently undereating to encourage them to eat more. Inevitably, folks want to know "how much more?", so a guide such as 10 - 12 x weight in calories can be helpful to know how much is the least to strive for.


Hope that helps :rose:


Doreen

[wcollier]

Hi Doreen:

Thanks for that link. Sorry, I was taking a simplistic answer and making it more complicated. I guess the only way to know that the "absense of insulin" (meaning absense of action) is alive and well is if one is in ketosis. That's very interesting data you've provided.

Wanda

[Ruralgurl]

I like this thread, so I give it a big (((((BUMP)))))!

[Signey]

Just bumping this thread up. It sure helped me with my questions.
Hope it helps you! :)

[oowwoo]

Well, its been quite awhile since I've peeked back at this thread--several months in fact. I will say this, I noticed I was at 158 the last time I was here (had started Atkins "clean" no cheats, 5 years ago and even gained 4-5 lbs on it). I'm not at all saying Atkins doesn't work --it just didn't work for my SLOW metabolism--even the fat fast...

I finally found a plan that works for my 'slow as molasses' metabolism. Its Lean for Life. I am now 12 lbs less (146) than I was the last time I was here....
And yes, you're correct about the cals and 'survival' mode. On this plan, I was told I needed to go on Metabolic Adjustment because I had really slowed down my 'burner' from all of the dieting. I was also told that there are a few folks (I'm apparently one of them), who don't do as well on higher fat.
Just thought I would give an update.
Carol

[elijaeger]

A few claims in this thread are a little disturbing, such as the claim that the body can't convert dietary fat into body fat with low insulin levels. Feed someone 10,000 kcal of fat, it will store plenty of extra fat. The body has to do something about it.

I don't know if it is such a good idea to plan in the "metabolic advantage" into your daily caloric estimates. I know that the inefficiencies of ketosis mostly go away after a while as the body adjusts which organs need ketones and which can live off tryglycerides.

[oowwoo]

It may be because I'm 53, but I know that for some reason, I (unfortunately), cannot rely on this 'metabolic advantage' for my own wt. loss. Believe me, I sure wish I could--I really enjoyed the Atkins plan and saw so many people losing tons of weight on it. This 'bod' has to go the lower fat/lower cal route (with smaller meals more frequently throughout the day) --with a heavy dose of exercise too!


Carol

[CheriYM]

Lots of great info here - I'm still trying to be ok with eating fat after 10 years of Ornish/McDougall LF/mostly veg eating (and gaining 60 lbs :mad: ). Carbs were killing me! Still gravitating toward lower fat meats out of habit . . . but enjoying coffee w/ h&h tremendously :D !

[VegoMum]

Wanted to bump this thread as it is imprtant

[Malindi]

Hey VegoMum,

Thanks for bringing this threadup. I just spent an hour reading and my eyes are openned. More Calories (from fat) for me tomorrow.

Thank you all who contributed:bhug: :clap:

[CheriYM]

Still eatin' fat and losing weight! Yahoo! :agree:

[kk81]

i'm confused now. the original poster said she gained weight by eating more fat so I am even more confused than before I read this post.

[Karen]

This might give you some insight

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=31615

Karen

[MoseyMan]

Stuart,
I am starting to think that a low GI diet would be better than just atkins.

As far as I have read - the body can turn excess protein into fat; protein will raise insulin if carbs are restricted enough. So most of the people who eat large amounts of proteins should eventually stall. (According to this theory)

I am starting to wonder if a balance of carbs & proteins with portion control is best. And also, I have been reading a tad on the hormonal thing and I am begining to wonder about that.

Your big words baffle me; I only half get what you are saying. It takes a bit for new ideas to sink in my old noggin- but I am on the case now; once I start considering new things I cant stop.

I enjoyed reading your ideas and I have read similar things.

Anyway, if you have a list of books or sites about these ideas, please let me know. I am very interested.

[Signey]

I wish I could rely on a higher fat diet to lose. It just doesn't work for me. I went the high fat route for two years and could only lose about twenty pounds. I cut out the dairy and the artificial sweeteners and it didn't change anything. I think that for me anyway, as I've gotten older (49) my metabolism just can't handle eating pork steaks on a daily basis anymore. :lol: It's sad, but there you go. Those calories counted for me.

I'm now eating at about 23 percent fat, 32 percent carbs, 45 percent protein, I average about 100 grams of carb a day from vegetables and fruits. My fats come from low fat dairy, meat and fish, and fish oil. I eat only very lean cuts of beef, chicken breast, turkey and fish. I vary my calories in two week blocks from 1200 to 1500. I've been lifting weights and doing aerobic exercise for five weeks now. I'm finally getting past the initial twenty pounds that I lost on the high fat plan and I'm doing this in record time for me.

I have no doubt that for my pre menopausal metabolism that this is the right route for me. It's working and I feel great.

I'm so grateful for this forum because it offers so many different low carb plans that we can experiment with until we find the one that works for us. One size does not fit all. :)

Signey

[shpgrl03]

WOW! Great thread! I just recently was wondering, with my excercise level so high, why the scale wasn't moving. I work out 5 times a week. 3 days 6 mile run and the other 2 weight lifting. I too, think I was eating too little bit. I read somewhere, I think from Doreen, that a large person needs at least 60 grams of protein a day.?.? I think it was something like that. On the "What causes stalls section". I am so not even close to that intake. So, I started eating more protein and am trying to eat smaller more frequent meals and have so much energy. I hope this is the answer to my prayers. Thanks Doreen & Andy for the info....;) :wave:

[Samantha22]

shpgrl..you look amazing! the scale probably isn't moving because you're building muscle while you lose fat....since you're working out so much..i bet you're losing inches tho! Keep up the good work...and way to go!

[shpgrl03]

Sam22,
Thanks for the encouragement! Hey, You go girl! YOu've done a great job yourself! Keep it up!;) :angel: :angel:

[KaiNiki]

I read through all of the great information here and the fat stuff makes sense, but I am a little confused about the calories stuff. I know some people have to count calories even when eating lc, I think I may be one of those, but are you supposed to eat 10 to 12 times your current weight in calories or 10 to 12 times your desired weight? Or just ignore it all? :lol:

[JandLsMom]

i think its 10-12 times your current weight!

[Jumbo]

I think some people assosiate food-dat with body fat. The saying goes, "you are what you eat!" and there are some people who actually think that the fat from that steak is the same fat that will now become a part of your body. It isn't the fat, but the calories in it.... fat free foods get stored as fat just as much as high fat ones. Like soda, candy, jelly, bread, etc. And almonds are high in fat, but a lot of people have lost weight eating them in moderation because they're so filling. Don't be afraid of the fat, you'll never be full until you get the fat you crave. But avoid the carbs! At least the empty white carbs.

[Kisal]

I think the idea of more fat in the diet makes a lot of sense. One of the first signs that a person has become diabetic is sudden weight loss in the absence of any change in diet or exercise.

I'm doing the Fat Fast now, and for the first time in almost 10 months, I've begun to lose some weight. Needless to say, I'm limited at the moment to 1000 calories/day, but 90% of those calories come from fat. I may find that I no longer continue to lose when I move to the 1200 cal/day Modified Fat Fast on Tuesday. If that's the case, then I'll just slowly reduce the calories until I begin to lose again. But I definitely wiil keep the fat high, although perhaps not at 90%. I know I'm not getting enough protein right now, so I will increase that before I try to increase carbs.

Great thread, with some important information for everyone!

[Kimberleyb]

Bumping - some eye-opening advice

[Ruralgurl]

I am glad you bumped this, it just makes so much sense. I continue to struggle with weight but I try to follow lowcarb and if you do you can make the mistake of taking in too few calories andthe only way to up them is with FAT!
We have cut TRANS FAT from our diet in the last few years, amazingly I no longer get sore throats and we rarely get sick. I do not know what the connection is but it is surprising to us!

[Melesana]

Bumping again to praise the clear ways the information was presented in this thread, and to ask a question about high-fat.

What do we have in the low-carb lifestyle that's absorbent enough to soak up all this fat we want to eat, to get it into us? I've reached the limit of how much fat I'm willing to lick off the plate. I can't think of things that will absorb and convey it, like we used to mop it up with bread. I'd love some ideas.

Meg