Question on LCing with High Fat & Diabetes

[Cajunboy47]

I am approaching the end of my 3rd week of eating low carb/high fat. I am diabetic and off the medications since I started this diet, but my numbers are swinging from a high of about 160 in the morning, low of around 100 by mid-day and around 130 at bedtime and I am wondering if it should be a little better than that. I am not very active and only walk about 3 times a week for about 30 minutes.

I am averaging about 30g carbs on a diet of about 2,000 calories. Weight loss is slow as expected.

I don't know if I am doing good or should be doing better. I don't know if my gluscose levels will get better as I lose weight and continue as I am presently doing. I am opened to suggestions. I have been thinking that I may not be in ketosis and have thought of doing the M/E diet for 3 to 5 days to see if it might not lower my numbers and speed up my weight loss.

I'm feeling good, no cravings, not anxious (at least I don't think so), just wondering if I should do anything different or keep on keeping on as is....

Cajunboy47

[KvonM]

the most important question that comes to my mind is: what's your doctor say?

[Dylan]

I typically read people sticking to their meds until they have recieved accurate and positive confirmation that it is SAFE to do d\so.
Although I agree this WOE will help control your diabetes, if not beat it, just be patient. Three weeks is not a long time for a disease that most likely took a life time to build.
I dont even know what those numbers mean, but being a diabetic---you should. What is your measure of "good"? Are those optimal blood sugar readings? If not, my guess would be then, to change something. If you need more of a specific answer, please post a specific menu so people can help you target the problem.
I can easily understand how frustrating it may be, I wish I knew the answers to the future too :p. However, instead, I would suggest that you arm yourself with knowledge, so that you can more assurance in the steps you put forth.

Good Luck :wave:

[cs_carver]

I am averaging about 30g carbs on a diet of about 2,000 calories.

I'd be a little concerned about the "averaging" part there. What's the range? One day of "too high for where you are now" can set you off for more than that one day, so following it up with a "low" day may not be getting you the full benefit of the program.

Is it possible for you to get significantly more active? That would be a very useful test of the plan. If your cells never burn through the "food" they have stored up, there's no where for the sugar in your blood to go. Exercise is the way to shift your basal metabolism, and blood sugars.

Get out, get moving, join a gym, buy a mini-tramp, whatever works. Hoop dancing does it for me. A hard hour with my hoop and I'm a different person, and it does have an effect that lasts much longer than the hour.

You're adjusting one half of the equation with your intake. Mess around with the other half, too.

[Cajunboy47]

I appreciate the replies.

My Doctor and Nutrionist believe in high carb/low fat diets, but they give their consent, as I was fighting a losing battle. My glucose readings are way better than before (now in acceptable range), so I know I am onto something.

I knew I need to move around more and get a little more exercise, thanks for the jump start, needed to hear it. "Active" is the key word......

My numbers, when you average the highs and lows are within a range of normal, but high normal. 80-110 would be optimal for me, my average is about 130 now. Before the LC diet and with the meds, it was over 200.

My carb intake average of 30g never fluctuates more than 5g up or down. The Groves diet plan allows for up to 60g per day, but I know my tolerance for carbs is not that high, so I am keeping it lower. I think once some weight comes off, my tolerance is supposed to be better according to what I've read, but if anyone knows more about that, let me know.

I read a lot of other posts and I find myself leaning towards the M/E for a few days, then Atkins induction, then after sufficient weight loss (1/2 of my goal) back to the Groves plan. Mulling it over for now.

Cajunboy47

[cs_carver]

I don't have time or attention to fully develop this idea, but here are the glimmerings:

Get a step counter ($4 at WalMart) and determine your weekly average now, and then double it. Exercise can "average" and do you some good.

I'm not so sure about blood sugar averages. Lows can kill pretty quickly, although TypeIIs don't die from low blood sugar normally (unless it causes a brain fart that leads to a car wreck or industrial accident). Don't know how much on the high side, even when averaging "normal," that a body can sustain. I think of it as having a mouthful of sugar--how many hours can sugar be in my mouth before I am going to start having ugly dental bills?

Good luck.

[Cajunboy47]

I'm not so sure about blood sugar averages. Lows can kill pretty quickly, although TypeIIs don't die from low blood sugar normally (unless it causes a brain fart that leads to a car wreck or industrial accident). Don't know how much on the high side, even when averaging "normal," that a body can sustain. I think of it as having a mouthful of sugar--how many hours can sugar be in my mouth before I am going to start having ugly dental bills?


Funny.........

Blood sugar, no matter how well regualted, fluctuates during rest, activity, eating, etc... Anything done in a day, no matter who we are and what our health is, our blood sugar/glucose is fluctuating.

There are at home test kits and these only tell what the glucose level is at the time someone sticks themselves. An average is merely adding all of the sticks in a day or a week, etc and dividing the total of all the results by the number of sticks.

For diabetics who need to know more about how they are doing, they take an A1C test and this tells them how much glucose on average is in the body over the last 90 days or so. Glucose attaches itself to red blood cells, red blood cells die off at about 90 days. Newer blood cells do not have as much glucose attached as those about to die off, so the A1C gives as accurate a measurement of what the body has been averaging as any other means available to us today.

I am going later today to buy a step counter. Good suggestion

[AL W]

Walking is only a start. The more vigorous exercise you get the more receptive to insulin your cells become the less insulin you need to secrete. Once you are walking regularly for 30 min go to 45 then 1 hr. Then briskly. Then run walk. If it's safe for you to do so with your doctor's blessing of course. This is your helath we're talking about. It's worth fighting for.

[MizKitty]

Hi Cajunboy,

That happened to me, too. Back in August, right before i started, they were in the 240 - 290 range. The first thing I saw when I started LCing was those numbers drop dramatically, but they still spiked all day, sometimes up to 100 points. I'd see numbers like 214 upon waking, and 123 by lunch.

But then after a few more weeks, the spiking started to come under control, too, and I saw ranges like 140 - 180

After almost 3 months, my numbers still aren't as low as they should be, but they still dropping slowly and are starting to stay in a much closer range. They generally stay between 120 and 140 (that's with meds).

so maybe you just need to give it a little more time!

[Cajunboy47]

AL W
The more vigorous exercise you get the more receptive to insulin your cells become the less insulin you need to secrete. Once you are walking regularly for 30 min go to 45 then 1 hr. Then briskly. Then run walk.

While I've always thought like what you said, I read in a book "Eat Fat, Get Thin" by Barry Groves and it says that exercise is only useful for health and fitness and that those two things are not synonymous with each other. Groves also says it is impossible to exercise for permanent weight loss and offers many proofs in the book to support his statement. Also, words like vigorous and brisk means pushing to the limit, which according to the book could be hazardous if we push a little too much. The only point in the book that isn't made is that if you're diabetic, you better move around. IMO: being diabetic and sitting around all day is like asking for trouble down the road, if it is not inviting trouble today.

I had knee surgery earlier in the summer and just recouping enough to get into some more serious walking. I count my blessings as I opted for orthoscopic repair of torn miniscus and they wanted to do a knee replacement.

Anyway, your point of relating exercise to breaking down insulin resistance is well taken and a good reason for me to get moving as much as I can. Thank you!

[Cajunboy47]

MizKitty:

so maybe you just need to give it a little more time!

You are so right! I had been mulling over a change from my high fat/low carb diet which is working slowly as promised in the "Eat Fat, Get Thin" book, to an M/E for a few days then Atkins induction, but with some additional thinking and your encouragement and example, I will just continue along with what I'm doing, get a little more active and be a little more patient. Stay in touch, I want to know how you're doing down the road. Good luck and good health.

Cajunboy47

[eddiemcm]

"Eat Fat, Get Thin".
Gorging oneself on fat will certainly not lead
to weight reduction.Getting a reasonable number of calories with minimum carbs and
most calories derived from fat and protein will
usually result in weight loss particularly if
exercise is factored into the equation.

[Rosebud]

"Eat Fat, Get Thin".
Gorging oneself on fat will certainly not lead
to weight reduction.Getting a reasonable number of calories with minimum carbs and
most calories derived from fat and protein will
usually result in weight loss particularly if
exercise is factored into the equation.
Who said anything about gorging on fat? ;)

"Eat Fat, Get Thin" is the name of the plan Cajunboy47 and I follow. You can read more about it here: http://www.lowcarb.ca/atkins-diet-and-low-carb-plans/eat-fat-get-thing.html

Rosebud:rose:

[Cajunboy47]

eddiemcm:
"Eat Fat, Get Thin".
Gorging oneself on fat will certainly not lead
to weight reduction.

If you are LCing, according to Dr Groves book and your fat intake is too low, meaning you're too high on protein, you're creating stresses on your body and leading to other problems. Dr Groves, in his book, challenges anyone to try and eat too much fat at one sitting. Fat makes you feel fuller faster, so you're not only likely to not eat too much fat, you're also likely to not overeat at all.

[AuntJoyce]

CajunBoy: I think Barry Groves is a pretty smart guy -- I like his advice. I've read over his website, but I didn't get the book. You may also want to read Dr. Richard K. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution for more specific advice to diabetics. Did you know that over-eating protein can raise blood sugar? Try shaving just an ounce or two from your protein servings. Don't worry about eating good fat (butter, rib steak, salmon, olive oil, coconut oil). Then just eat about 3 cups or so of low starch veggies. Green beans and butter! Skip any grains, starch, fruit and of course sugar. This is all in Dr. B's book. Protein Power is my other favorite.

I count my blessings as I opted for orthoscopic repair of torn miniscus and they wanted to do a knee replacement.

Are you serious? They wanted to replace your whole knee? You must be a youngster then if they were able to repair it. I guess for us old timers, all they can do is clean up any lose bits that can cause pain. I tore mine playing tennis. I haven't had the surgery yet though.

I would hop on the weight training if I were you and build up your quads and all over muscles. This is what helps us diabetics by adding more insulin receptors. Building up quads and hams also supports your knee joints. Hiking is my other favorite activity becase it works the large muscles in the body.

Congrats on getting off meds! I don't take them any more either.

[Cajunboy47]

Aunt Joyce:

You must be a youngster then if they were able to repair it.

I like you! I am unfortunately not a youngster, but 10 years senior to you... :)

Dr Groves and Dr Bernstein have much in common, if you read the Groves book which can be purchased online at low cost, you'd quickly see both are very similar to each other. I've not read Bernstein, but heard and read about him. I strongly believe that low carbs and high fat is the best and only hope for diabetics.

I do leg strenghtening exercises, have for years, as I have had prior back surgeries. That's probably why I had a good recovery from the knee surgery. Anyway, any diet would be hard to lose weight these past few months, but things are looking up with the exercise ability....

Thanks for your comments, stay in touch.

Cajunboy47

[eddiemcm]

"Who said anything about gorging on fat? "
Actually,Robert Atkins.
Robert Atkins favored the "don't count calories"
approach.I use to do Atkins,read all his books.
Lost 45 pounds doing induction but about 15
lbs came back when i went to medium carb diet
I eat a lot more than the RDA for sat fat but I
exercise and do count calories.
Good night,all

[cs_carver]

exercise is only useful for health and fitness and that those two things are not synonymous with each other. Groves also says it is impossible to exercise for permanent weight loss and offers many proofs in the book to support his statement. Also, words like vigorous and brisk means pushing to the limit, which according to the book could be hazardous if we push a little too much.

My health professionals have said it's pretty much impossible to MAINTAIN weight loss without exercise, although the weight loss itself is related to intake adjustments, and they have the demographic studies to back that up. I think it's pretty much an issue of "find the expert who supports the life you want to live." The whole eating-at-night, or CAD, or three meals only no snacks, or constant grazing, is another realm where everyone has an opinion and an expert to back it up. Whatever works. But it's really just an opinion, and if it quits working, it can help to understand that and find another one that might work better.

There's a thread in the Exercise Forum about how some people need to do strength training and they do too much cardio and that messes up their overall fitness. My own observations suggest most Americans need to move a WHOLE lot more than they do. Going to the gym one day with a fat friend, I observed her routine. I suggested she try more weight. She said, "Oh, that hurts!!" Yeah, that's the point. No wonder she was fat; her idea of exercise was my idea of walking in from the parking lot. I am not exaggerating too much.

IMexperience, plenty of people don't understand how resilient most bodies are, within reason, and back off way too soon when it comes to fitness.

Blood sugars do fluctuate over the course of a day. The range is what matters. If they're fluctuating from 200-50, you might well get the same average as someone who's fluctuating from 80-120, but that isn't at all the same answer.

[Cajunboy47]

cs carver originally said:

My health professionals have said it's pretty much impossible to MAINTAIN weight loss without exercise, although the weight loss itself is related to intake adjustments, and they have the demographic studies to back that up.

IMO: There are two factors in the equation, intake and output of energy. If you are focused on only one, you are establishing a bias.

"Exercise improves health and fitness and those are not synonymous and exercise is not effective to obtain or maintain weight loss."

That statement comes Dr Barry Groves. I read that part of his book a couple of times to make sure I understood it. I probably will read his whole book several more times to ingrain his knowledge into my thinking. He has scientific evidence to prove his statement and explains it thoroughly in his book.

I believe exercise is necessary for health and fitness, but to lose or maintain weight, not so. A balancing of intake for the amount of energy output is key. If you are not exercising and take in only your energy needs, you will maintain, take in less than your energy needs, you will lose. If you continually take in less energy than you use, eventually, it will lead to a health issue, the same if you continually take in more than you need. Balance of intake and output to maintain a proper weight is key.

Also, if someone is not as physically fit as another, their exercise does not have to be equal to achieve the same benefit. Example: Person A & B walk 5 miles. They start and finish at the same time. Person A is 50 pounds overweight and Person B is fit and at the proper weight. It is obvious that Person A achieved more benefit because it was more strenuous because Person A was carrying an extra 50 pounds.

Someone in another post about late night snacking said, if you listen to your body, you know when to eat and when to stop. I agree with that and I think we can apply it to exercise also. If you exercise and your body says you're in pain, then you should stop and not do as you suggested. The "no pain, no gain" is a myth. Don't listen to your body and you are at higher risk for injury or muscle damage or something in your health will suffer eventually. We are not invincible.

Cajunboy47

[AuntJoyce]

I am unfortunately not a youngster, but 10 years senior to you...

Oh, okay! So are you going to do meat and egg for a few days? Or what did you think about checking how much protein. Do you think that could be cut back a little? I found myself eating almost a pound of steak once. I used Protein Power to calculate my minimum protein, which is closer to about 6oz per meal. Once I did that I lost 2 pounds per week for about 10 weeks. My blood sugar is between 85 and 109. When I check during the day after meals, it doesn't change more than a few points.

Do you know about the Chinese Restaurant effect? Dr. B mentions a lady who ate a whole head of lettuce thinking it was a freebie and she couldn't figure out why her blood sugar went up. He explains that eating too much food stretches the upper part of the small intestine will cause a release of insulin. Then your blood sugar drops causing glucagon to be released. That can kick off gluconeogenesis (creating glucose from amino acids) and glycogenolysis which raises blood sugar.

Note to Eddie: this is why you must not gorge on anything. Dr. A always eat till satisfied but NOT stuffed.

[Cajunboy47]

Aunt Joyce said:

Oh, okay! So are you going to do meat and egg for a few days?

Or what did you think about checking how much protein. Do you think that could be cut back a little?

Do you know about the Chinese Restaurant effect?

Anwer to 1st question:
I decided to stay with my hight fat/low carb plan and not do the m/e. I think being diabetic and not wanting to fix what ain't broke would be the main reasons. I am having a steady weight loss, slow but surely, just as explained in Dr Groves' book, so I think I just need patience and the numbers will keep coming down.

Answer to 2nd question:
I will look into protein powders because of the controllability you mentioned, but I am afraid to try anything that isn't directly from nature. I'll put aside my apprehensions to study this, if you have some references, I would appreciate them.

Answer to 3rd question:
No. But I know when we overeat, that can happen. I love chinese food, but shy away as much as possible, too hard to know what additives are in the foods, especially sugars. My tolerance for carbs might get better as the weight comes off, but for now, I need strict carb control. I am developing a food guide which quickly identifies a food type and its associated calories, fats, proteins and carbs. If you know of a place on the internet that has that information handily available, let me know. I want to be able to look at any food on a plate and in my mind, know the approximate portion and nutrition that I would get from it if eaten. I learned to do it with carbs, just need to learn how to see the fat and proteins the same way.

I have been sort of tracking by close estimates and I feel my diet is slowing getting to this: 1865 calories, 145g fat, 93g protein, 47g carbs.... I haven't really let myself have that many carbs yet and I am spreading the calories between the fat and protein for now, but feel I need to up the carbs, just keep them spread out so it doesn't cause such a spike in my glucose level. Along with a little walking an hour or so after each meal, I feel I will be ok.... Patience is not my virtue and if I need to focus on one thing more than any other, that is it!!

Cajunboy47

[AuntJoyce]

Answer to 2nd question:
I will look into protein powders because of the controllability you mentioned, but I am afraid to try anything that isn't directly from nature.

No, I'm not saying to use protein powders. I'm saying to be careful about the portion size of your meat.

My two favorite nutrition sites:

This one gives a complete analysis of nutrition and vitamins for just about any food:
www.nutritiondata.com

This one is organized nicely to find the most nutrient-dense foods for a given nutrient. I learned that bananas are not the best source of potassium, for example. I'm very pleased to see that our low-starch veggies are often the best sources for nutrients.

On the left pane, click either the WHFoods List or the Essential Nutrients. These are what I use the most.
http://www.whfoods.com/eathealthy.php


Although your carbs are not really that low, I think you are doing great to track what you eat as well as the exercise. I plan to stay between 20g and 30g for life although there are occasional times I go a little higher.

You can read several chapters of Dr. Bernstein's book for free here:
http://www.diabetes-book.com/

[eddiemcm]

"Dr Groves, in his book, challenges anyone to try and eat too much fat at one sitting."
I wonder how much fat Dr. Groves considers to be too much.I think most Atkins dieters have
probably met and surpassed the doctor's challenge:big T-bone steak covered with rich
cheese sauce followed by strawberries and coolwhip.Yikes.I'm sooo full I'm going to bust!

[SadLady]

I am a diabetic, 61 years old and with a lot of health issues that do not allow me to be active at all. My life is very sedentary. We are all different, so what works for me may not work for you. What I found out is that to control my diabetes I have to be on induction, Atkins style. My intake of carbs can not be more than 20 or my BS does not begins to fall. When I first started to do low carb, 3 years ago, within 2 weeks my BS were normal.

For the past 4 months I have not been low carbing, but I started again 3 weeks ago. I could not bring my BS down at all, so I started to check my 13 different medications to see which one is interfeering. Finally today, my BS before dinner was 98. Let's see what it is tomorrow morning when I get up. What I think is the Furosemide (diuretic) is the culprint, but I know that I have to take it for my CHF. I stopped taking it and my BS started to drop inmediately.

Three years ago, when my weight was 310 lbs, I could barely walk. I lost 50 lbs just sitting at home doing nothing but low carb. No physical activity, so it is possible for someone younger to do the same.

If you are on Metformin, you should continue to take it as it allows the cells in your body to use the glucose. I still take it, but it is the only diabetic medication I take. No Byatta, Actos, Avandia or Insulin.

Keep doing what you are doing and it will eventually come down. Be patient, sometimes is not as fast as we want it to be.

[eddiemcm]

There are soo many factors in weight loss.
Some of us with physical problems have to compramise a bit but,like Sad Lady said,we
can still lose weight if we come up with a plan
tailored to our restrictions.
Speaking of exercise:
I have been pumping iron a lot for the last 3-4 weeks.I was shocked to discover that I had
gained 7 pounds even though my clothes have
become loose and I actually have a few muscle
bulges in my arms and thighs.
Reason: Muscle weighs more than fat.
Damn! What a predicament.
And so it goes...
Good night from Texas
Eddie

[Klyla]

I'm diabetic and my numbers are similar to yours. I was in 250+ range before LC and after a few weeks they are slowly coming down and are staying in the 120-160 range.

Of course, you probably know your morning # is higher because of the dawn phenomenon many diabetics experience. If you aren't informed on this, do a search and read up on it.

I think you'll be OK if you continue as is. If not, just give it a few more weeks and then tweak. I know it's really hard to wait out the process but bear in mind we didn't get this way overnight and we're not going to heal overnight. Best wishes for your continued improvement!

[AuntJoyce]

Reason: Muscle weighs more than fat.

Hey Eddie: muscle looks better than fat, too! I bet you're looking good.