Frustration with Kimkins

[mgw]

Some of you might remember me from a while ago.
I am trying to lose weight for reasons of fertility.

I'm female.
I started at about 400 pounds.
I'm about 5'7 1/2" tall.
The fertility doctors won't do much for me
unless I reach about 260 pounds, or maybe 280,
depending on which clinic I go to.

So, I lost about 50 pounds, getting down to 347,
and stalled for a year or so, slowly regaining back to 371.
I am now 45.
The local fertility doctors won't do anything for me
after I reach 46, which will happen in May 2006.

Me and my sweetie decide
something drastic had better happen.
Now or never.

So I crank up my exercise,
which is working very well.

I pay the $30 and join Kimkins.com.
You could say South Beach is to Atkins as
Atkins is to Kimkins.
Or you could say that Kimkins is taking to the logical
extreme the idea that calories count
but carbs count more.
The clientelle is all female,
and the discussion feels as if no-one is over 30
or graduated from college.
I finished grad school, but I'm talking
about the sophistication of the discussion.
There's no medical techno-babble.
There are some number of success stories
who get down to a size 5
to fit into a wedding dress.
It's sort of like a cross between this site
and a supermarket check-out women's magazine.

One routinely reads posts there
from people who say
they cannot stay on the diet
because they feel sick
or because they are hungry all the time.

There are two eating plans.
The Kimkins experiment says you can have
all the lean protien you want
and practically nothing else.
The regular Kimkins plan says you can have
salad and low calory protien and not much else.
They say this is 70 to 90 grams of protien,
which translates to 3 ounces a day.

One is officially supposed to stay on the experiment
for 3 to 5 days, but it is also recommended in posts
that one stay on it indefinitely.

They are more quickly responsive than here
about answering questions,
so when I ask how to adjust my diet,
I am told not to eat cheese or cocoa powder,
and then I see a recipe posted by the founder
that includes cheese,
and a recipe posted by someone else
that includes mole
which includes unsweetened chocolate
and a response by the founder
saying one can eat that if one lets the sauce
drip off.

I've already lost 15 of the 20 pounds I regained
in about a month, which is not at all bad,
and that's not following their diet completely.
I eat bigger quantities than they specify.
I guess I'm getting what I paid for,
but I feel as if I don't know whether what I'm doing
is healthy, or even whether what I'm trying to do is
possible. I am hungry all the time, and also tired.
I'm well aware that losing a lot of weight just before
getting pregnant can be a problem, and I AM taking
the supplements every morning, just as I did on Atkins.

My personal trainer at the health club is a nutritionist,
but unfortunately not a low carb friendly one, so
I'm not sure where to turn for advice.

I am hoping this crowd may have someone
who has been down this road before
and can offer an informed opinion.

mgw

[justducky2]

I took a look at the Kimkins plan...just remember, she was a poster here that had fabulous weight loss, but she is not a doctor. You need to do what is right for YOUR body...you shouldn't be hungry and tired all the time. Her plan might work great for other people, but maybe not you. What about going back to Atkins induction? You can use a lot of GREAT recipes from this site (yes, cocoa and cheese!) so that you don't get bored, and you get some diversity. I'm with you, a non-lowcarb friendly nutritionist is not where you should turn, she'll just tell you, "I told you so!" Good luck with whatever you decide, and let us know how you are doing.

[rightnow]

I think every person tends to adapt one of the 'formal' eating plans to their own personal preferences and opinions. She did it, and others have done it. I am at a high weight, and I did it. She is selling it and I think has simplified some things for the sake of simplicity. I don't avoid fat at all -- there are some experts who even say fat helps lose weight, not curtails it.

You can see the plan I use at http://thedivinelowcarb.blogspot.com/2006/10/induction-cycling.html
(if your browser resizes images, you'll need to change that setting or it will shrink it to unreadable)

but I think every person should do what they feel is right for them.

[Nean]

IMO, long term low fat is not healthy for you or for future baby to be. I look & feel so much better, and loose wt faster, if I am getting 65-75% fat - yes, fat and 20-30% protein. I use a nutrition tracking software and adjust the goals for my personal macronutrient ratio. Also adjusting the cholesterol, vitamin A, and B12 levels up so it is not screaming at me "get less vitamin A" etc. 3 weeks ago I started intermittent fasting. When I am on plan, currently I am loosing 4#/wk because I cannot make up during eating periods what I missed during fasting periods. There have been, and continue to be major changes in how I relate to foods over the past few weeks, improvement in sex drive, energy, concentration etc. There is a challenge thread on this forum about IF (intermittent fasting). http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=309675

Also I enjoy the forum at & the nutritional WOL at proteinpower.com. Very science based and some of the conversations are overly scientific for my tastes, but boy, if you say 'prove it' they'll find you the studies and references to support their positions.

Max wt >280#. Current 218 & dropping.

[miristar]

I'm sorry to hear you are frustrated. Have you contacted Kimmer herself to ask your questions? She is very responsive. It is true that she posts some maintenance recipes - but you have to remember that she, and several others on the Kimkins site, have been maintaining their weight loss for several years now. The web site is very new and she will be developing a seperate maintenance section, I believe...

Personally I have found the success on the Kimkins plan that I have not found anywhere else. There is a lot of science and you do have to make some decisions about what to do, based on your own body. I would encourage you to get on the "Ask Kimmer" thread and ask your questions... or pm her... or start a thread in the Q&A section and express your concerns.

Frankly as membership prices go, I think $30 lifetime membership is less than the monthly fee I paid at WW, less that I spent at SB website as well. For me it has been a good deal. I have gotten a lot of support and my weight is lower than it's been in about 5 years...

There are choices to be made in any plan, and personally I have occasional cocoa powder and some days I have cheese... I don't mind if it slows down the weight loss, I have never experienced such fast weight loss in my entire life!

Whatever you do, good luck to you...

:)
miristar



======================================================================== =

started 9/16/06 (again) at 257 first weight goal is 240, reached 10/11/06 Next goal: 230// ultimate weight goal is 135

http://www.extrapounds.com/tracker.bmp/15364.gif (http://www.extrapounds.com/)
I count actual carbs, not net carbs, and it has made a difference!
http://mirihawk.extrapounds.com (http://mirihawk.extrapounds.com/)
http://www.mirihawk.com (http://www.mirihawk.com/) __________________

[mgw]

First I would like to clarify a misunderstanding I had.

The list of allowed foods on Kimkins says 70-90 grams of lean protein per day. Apparently if one uses fitday.com to track one's food, which I don't (I detest food diaries, having kept too many of them), one can tell that this translates to about 3-4 ounces of meat or 3-4 eggs per meal, which is far more reasonable than I had understood before.

I asked on Kimkins.com and someone explained that.

For now, I am not looking for a long-term solution. I want to get my weight down to 260 if I can, get pregnant if I can, figure out what I should eat when pregnant (which will likely be some variant of low carb including fruit, I think, but I'll check the parenting discussion here for advice, because I know that has been discussed more than once) and then see where I am. If I'm lucky, I won't have developed diabetes while pregnant.

I'm losing 5 pounds a week, and as long as that keeps up, I can get away with not keeping a food diary, I think.

I wish no ill to Kimmer. What I am doing inspired by her site is working after a fashion. I am frustrated by my feeling of a lack of reliable information on what I should do. I had hope Kimkims.com would make everything clear, but things are messier than I had hoped. Life is usually that way. That's nobody's fault in particular.

Thanks for the pointers to the more scientific discussion. I'll check that out.

[2bthinner!]

I'm not totally familiar with Kimkins, but if it's low carb, why oh why do they have a dietician who is not low carb? That seems very counter productive. Like having a vegetarian working in a steak house...

[SunnyCarol]

There is some scientific evidence that high protein interferes with conception. You might want to check that out.

[mgw]

I belong to a gym down the road from where I work, on one of the multiple routes home.

By the way, to a couch potato starting out in TDC, I absolutely recommend gym proximity. It has been very helpful in getting me to execise. I also recommend a personal trainer, if you can find one who is not abusive. You must make it clear from the beginning that drill seargent is not the treatment you want. I assume it is not. Some people seem to like that judging by the classes they go to.

Kathy happens also to be trained as a dietician as well, which I thought might be useful if any question of nutrition came up. I figure she could also answer questions about what exercise is safe to continue if I get pregnant. The club has a pool, so I might do water aerobics if I get pregnant, even though I prefer nautilus, I suspect using water is safer for a baby.

However, Kathy is not a low carb friendly dietician.

Sigh... if high protien inhibits fertility, well so does high weight at my level, and that is absolutely for sure. Sometimes you just can't win.

What I have read in DANDR is that Induction is not safe during pregnancy, and that one must up the carbs some. I have thought about that, and decided that the nutritionally best way to up the carbs would be to add highly nutritionally dense carbs like fruit and maybe whole grains, rather than twinkies, and that having a kid who likes fruit is probably better for them in the long run. We'll see.

mgw

[whyspers]

She's now charging $30 for this???? Oh the things that make you go hmmmmm.


L

[nawchem]

mgw maybe a medically supervised protein fast? My healthplan has one called HMR it has the weekly weighin 1hr talking thing. Its a shake drinking thing if you are obese insurance pays for the whole thing. The shakes have the nutrients you need- about 400 cal/day. You compete with yourself to do more exercise everyweek. They do bloodtests to monitor the fast wt loss. My friend did it to lose wt to have a baby and then was unable to get pregnant again, she was 32, so maybe the protein does mess you up. But she maintained all the wt loss.

I can only think of some type of fasting that would get the wt off at the rate you're trying for.

[2bthinner!]

According to Atkins, the fat fast actually takes weight off faster than fasting.. Plus, it's not high protein.. I have to go right now, and pick up the kidlet, but I can reference the pages in DANDR later if you like..

[Elihnig]

I tried meat and egg this summer during the month of August. About day 3 I would get so weak and listless even though I was taking supplements including potassium, magnesium and calcium, all the typical things recommended to people when they feel weak. I would have a salad or a serving of vegetables and feel better. After a month of this...I did not lose anything! I was totally stalled. I took a week off from any plan (carbing, gained some weight) and then went back to Atkins induction with my vegetables and salads. I've lost every week since. I need some good carbs to lose it seems and I feel great all the time.

Just my experience.

Beth

[miristar]

Once again, I really have to ask - why are you posting here instead of taking your complaints to Kimmer herself?


=========================================================================
started 9/16/06 (again) at 257 first weight goal is 240, reached 10/11/06 Next goal: 232 // ultimate weight goal is 135
http://www.extrapounds.com/tracker.bmp/15364.gif (http://www.extrapounds.com/)
I count actual carbs, not net carbs, and it has made a difference!
http://mirihawk.extrapounds.com
http://www.mirihawk.com

[mgw]

I said above "I don't know whether what I'm doing is healthy, or even whether what I'm trying to do is possible." If someone had tried Kimkins and not been successful, or had a bad medical outcome, I would not find them on kimkins.com. I might find them here. I want a second opinion from people more free to be critical.

I would not have gone on Kimkins if I had heard discussion here of it being dangerous. I haven't, but hearing multiple reports of women there saying they feel sick or hungry makes me nervous. Being hungry all the time makes me wonder if I'm doing something unwise. I've never done that kind of dieting before. Why are there no men?

When someone reports feeling sick on lowcarber.ca, it's more often because they were not taking supplements or not eating enough of something or something like that. We normally know why, and how to stop it. There are exceptions, but not often, and there is at least some medicine and science behind it. If someone posts that on Kimkins.com there is no answer.

I do indeed post on Kimkins.com too, in a rather more positive tone, because I have found then if I ask questions in a way that does not make people defensive, then I more often get the answer I need. I can afford to vent a bit more here because most of the TDC has no reason to feel one way or the other about Kimkins.

Nothing I say here is meant to imply what Kimkins should be, or should not be, for anyone else. My worry is not just about the weight loss, but (if I succeed) about the pregnancy.

So if you like it and it works for you, good! It seems to work for me too. I worry about whether there will be some medical price to pay, but there just doesn't seem to be a reliable source of information.

mgw

[April2005]

She's now charging $30 for this???? Oh the things that make you go hmmmmm.


L

its $39.95 now

[slim_dream]

I've done Atkins before, just re-started it but I'm going to switch over to Kimkins.

I tend to think (just guessing, since I haven't done Kimkins yet) that if they're getting sick feeling or hungry, they might be doing something wrong. Often people insist they're following Atkins right, but when you get into specifics you find out they're not. I did well on Atkins for a couple months, then hovered for a while, then gained, then gave up. I was sure I was following it right. Looking back, and studying the diet again now, I realize I was making some mistakes. I also think the Frankenfoods were doing me in. I was living on the shakes, bars, and other low carb inventions. I've heard Splenda can cause depression, and I got hit with major depression.

Anyway, all this rambling is just to say that I wouldn't worry about what other people say about how they're feeling...just pay attention to your body and what it tells you (assuming you're following the diet properly).

Also, about having a baby...I think if you drop weight fast, and you're feeling okay, I wouldn't worry about it, although you might want to wait a little after you've hit your goal. And I'd also wait to see if you get pregnant on your own after you hit goal before you go see the fertility doctors. A lot of obese women suddenly get fertile once they lose enough weight.

And it's true, you're not supposed to do any weight-loss portion of Atkins when you're nursing or pregnant. When I did Atkins, I was nursing, and I did do the weight loss portion, but instead of counting carbs, I just as much of the approved foods as I felt I *needed*, without counting carbs. If I get pregnant again before I'm done on Kimkins, I'll switch to Atkins maintenance to keep my weight gain reasonable.

My doctor told me a little bit of mild dieting was okay for me while pregnant, because I had gained 60 pounds with two of my pregnancies and being so heavy was a bigger problem. This last time I lost a few pounds in the beginning, stayed the same a long time, but in the end gained 28 pounds (wasn't as careful in the third trimester, and also tend to retain water then too). I just did it sensibly, and with the doctor's supervision. But if you're still having fertility problems after losing weight, I wouldn't even risk that. Just eat sensibly, like Atkins maintenance, and don't worry about weight gain.

Good luck, you'll get there! :D

[fluffybear]

I used to keep up with all the Kimkins discussions on "another" low carb discussion board. Then I came over here to Active Low Carber. When I went back to the "other" board poof--Kimmers was gone and from what I hear on a not too pleasant note. I think its great that Kim lost weight using her own ideas. Many people on this board have also lost weight using their own plan. However I've seen nothing other than anecdotal evidence that her (the Kimkins) plans works across the board for everyone. I think that charging people for her advice is rather crass myself when she has absolutely NO background in nutrition other than reading stuff on and off the internet which we can all do.

[SunnyCarol]

I used to keep up with all the Kimkins discussions on "another" low carb discussion board. Then I came over here to Active Low Carber. When I went back to the "other" board poof--Kimmers was gone and from what I hear on a not too pleasant note. I think its great that Kim lost weight using her own ideas. Many people on this board have also lost weight using their own plan. However I've seen nothing other than anecdotal evidence that her (the Kimkins) plans works across the board for everyone. I think that charging people for her advice is rather crass myself when she has absolutely NO background in nutrition other than reading stuff on and off the internet which we can all do.I have seriously wondered about the legal ramifications of doing this (charging when she has no expertise other than quick personal weight loss). I've also wondered if she has permission to even charge while using any part of Atkins for her Kimkins diet. She freely uses the Atkins name, which is trademarked, and that is very serious. She also uses the Stillman name, which is also trademarked and copyrighted, etc. If this really catches on and she has a large following that is paying, I foresee a lawsuit or two in her future. I haven't been to the pay site, so I don't know what kind of disclaimer she has to cover her butt, but it doesn't matter much if she are charging for advice.

Sunny!

[fluffybear]

I have seriously wondered about the legal ramifications of doing this (charging when she has no expertise other than quick personal weight loss). I've also wondered if she has permission to even charge while using any part of Atkins for her Kimkins diet. She freely uses the Atkins name, which is trademarked, and that is very serious. She also uses the Stillman name, which is also trademarked and copyrighted, etc. If this really catches on and she has a large following that is paying, I foresee a lawsuit or two in her future. I haven't been to the pay site, so I don't know what kind of disclaimer she has to cover her butt, but it doesn't matter much if she are charging for advice.

Sunny!

Yes I have wondered about the rip-off of the Atkins name also.

[slim_dream]

Yeah, she could have herself in trouble for the name thing. It probably wasn't intentional, I think one of her followers started the name. But she should change it if she wants to avoid trouble. I don't think there should be a problem with using the diet advice of other programs if she gives credit. But if she's "selling" an e-book with quotes from it, she could get into copyright trouble. I think what she's mostly selling is the services...the webboards and the ability to correspond with her. I don't have a problem with that, but I think she should let people know what the program is so they can make an informed decision about buying. After all, you can pretty much get all the basics from other forums on the web, so why not put it on her front page anyway?

If she's smart, she has put warnings up that she's not a doctor or anything. If she does that, she's probably in the clear. But so far I haven't seen anything on her main page or elsewhere on the web warning that she's not a doctor, blah blah blah. Although knowing me I could have overlooked it. :lol:

[Analog6]

mgw, if you're losing 5 lbs a week you're doing OK. If you feel tired and hungry it is probably because you are not getting enough fat in the diet. What about introducing some avocado or other healthy fat. I wouldn't worry about the protein % till you get down a bit, in the meantime do your research and ask your doctor about a high proetin diet and pregnancy.

If you decide to introduce some grains, the lower GI whole ones are best, like Basmati rice etc.

Good luck with the weight loss and falling pregnant.

[Kimmer2]

I used to keep up with all the Kimkins discussions on "another" low carb discussion board. Then I came over here to Active Low Carber. When I went back to the "other" board poof--Kimmers was gone and from what I hear on a not too pleasant note. I think its great that Kim lost weight using her own ideas. Many people on this board have also lost weight using their own plan. However I've seen nothing other than anecdotal evidence that her (the Kimkins) plans works across the board for everyone. I think that charging people for her advice is rather crass myself when she has absolutely NO background in nutrition other than reading stuff on and off the internet which we can all do.
I've gotten so many "reports" about this thread I finally had to come over. I thought I was done with this stuff when I left LCF? Sigh.

Crass? Hmmm. Are you aware that Jean Neidich was a Queens, NY housewife who started by holding paid meetings in her apartment? She has no nutritional background. She also sold the Weight Watchers name to Nestle a few years ago for $600,000,000. Crass or smart business move?

Jenny Craig has been interviewed several times that she started her plan with no nutritional background. She learned as she went along. Was it crass for her to charge members? I wonder what the Jenny Craig empire is worth?

Both Dr. Atkins and Agatson are cardiologists. Certainly they didn't "need" the money they made from Atkins and South Beach. They both took an oath to help people. Couldn't they have sold their books for $5 instead of $25? Dr. A donated $100,000,000 of his own money to the Atkins Center for research. When you're making that kind of money off of the Atkins Diet, couldn't you offer the books for free? I wonder how much Dr. Agatson got for his deal to market South Beach meals and snacks? Is that crass, too?

For $39.95 Kimkins members receive an excellent value, and at less than the registration fee alone to join Weight Watchers. Judging from the PMs and emails I receive daily what people seem to appreciate most is direct access to me. Hmmm, I wonder how much the Atkins & South Beach books would cost if the authors included direct access to the doctors?

I'm puzzled as to why you ladies would even spend time wondering about the legalities of the Kimkins site, but if it keeps you from grabbing carbs it's OK with me.

I am doing nothing illegal. Kimkins was a name given by a member of LCF as a combination of Kimmer & Atkins. It reminded me of the book Rumplestiltskin that I used to read to my sons when they were small and that's a pleasant memory for me.

FYI - I can discuss Atkins, Stillmans, South Beach and Weight Watchers until the cows come home. I can criticize the parts of their plans that contradict my own plan. I can borrow excerpts and quotes. Drag out your law school books and look up fair usage.

Keep in mind that Dr. Atkins didn't invent low carb. Keep in mind that Dr. Stillman published several years before he did. My grandmother was born in 1892 and used my version of low carb all of her life. Probably why she was a size 2. There's nothing "new" about low carb.

You can't copyright an idea, only the expression of an idea. Look it up.

The reason I left LCF is because some people didn't like "Ask Kimmer" on the front page. I asked Tom for my own forum. For those of who think it's crass for me to charge for my time but OK to donate 6 hours a day, it would have remained free advice. Tom said "no" and I started my own site.

mgw, you're a Kimkins member as are a few other people on this site. If you had questions, why not send me a PM or an email? I don't understand why you would ask other people what I mean. Ask me directly. :)

Continue on ladies. Maybe you'd like to dredge up a discussion on Starvation Mode, while you're at it?

[SunnyCarol]

I'm puzzled as to why you ladies would even spend time wondering about the legalities of the Kimkins site, but if it keeps you from grabbing carbs it's OK with me.

I am doing nothing illegal. Kimkins was a name given by a member of LCF as a combination of Kimmer & Atkins. It reminded me of the book Rumplestiltskin that I used to read to my sons when they were small and that's a pleasant memory for me.

FYI - I can discuss Atkins, Stillmans, South Beach and Weight Watchers until the cows come home. I can criticize the parts of their plans that contradict my own plan. I can borrow excerpts and quotes. Drag out your law school books and look up fair usage.

You can't copyright an idea, only the expression of an idea. Look it up.
Copyright of an idea is called 'intellectual property' and it is defended or lost forever. This is why I question the legalities of your site and 'diet.'

Just ask the guy that legally changed his name to 'Andy Griffith' to run in an election for sheriff. The real Andy Griffith just sued him to make him change his name back, even though he lost the election and didn't profit in any way from the name.

Or, ask Daniel Moore, alumni sports artist of the University of Alabama, who was just sued by the university because he paints his football players wearing crimson and white. They claim his pictures violated the university’s trademark rights and asked a federal judge to forbid him to, among other things, use the university’s “famous crimson and white color scheme.” They claim that the colors are their intellectual property. How can you own a color? They certainly didn't invent the two colors.

I question your use of Atkins and Stillman (the trademarked, copyrighted names and diets) that you cobbled together to come up with Kimkins. I've seen people sued for less. It's neither here nor there for me, but I am allowed to question anything I want.

Sunny!

[Kimmer2]

Copyright of an idea is called 'intellectual property' and it is defended or lost forever. This is why I question the legalities of your site and 'diet.'

Just ask the guy that legally changed his name to 'Andy Griffith' to run in an election for sheriff. The real Andy Griffith just sued him to make him change his name back, even though he lost the election and didn't profit in any way from the name.

Or, ask Daniel Moore, alumni sports artist of the University of Alabama, who was just sued by the university because he paints his football players wearing crimson and white. They claim his pictures violated the university’s trademark rights and asked a federal judge to forbid him to, among other things, use the university’s “famous crimson and white color scheme.” They claim that the colors are their intellectual property. How can you own a color? They certainly didn't invent the two colors.

I question your use of Atkins and Stillman (the trademarked, copyrighted names and diets) that you cobbled together to come up with Kimkins. I've seen people sued for less. It's neither here nor there for me, but I am allowed to question anything I want.

Sunny!

Sunny, I welcome your questions. I only wish people would ask me directly and not behind my back. Although from 6 years at LCF I should be used to it by now.

Every diet is a variation of every other diet to some degree. They cannot be defined as separate intellectual property. This is the same reason recipes aren't protected by copyright. Martha Stewart made this argument when she was sued for her first cookbook with recipes that she didn't create.

Surely you remember your mother or grandmother passing on potatoes and bread when they were 'dieting'? That was eons before the deluge of diet books.

I'm flattered that so much interest is paid to the Kimkins diet and the www.kimkins.com site -- not to mention concern for my well being. It's unnecessary, but a compliment nonetheless.

The second usual concern is taxation. If anyone on this site is losing sleep over whether I'm cheating on my taxes, please be assured I'm not.

Every penny is reported. I don't even take all of the business deductions to which I'm entitled.

Although I use my profits for the after care of my teen foster sons to help them with apartment security deposits, getting the phone turned on, a few dollars to make the $2500 that will be matched by the county to buy a car and/or having a microwave, I am not a 501(c) entity and don't qualify for tax exemption as a non-profit organization.

Now, unless there are further questions which challenge my integrity or allude to deceit, I'll get back to administering my site. We'll have a vegetarian option very soon if anyone's interested.

[tamarian]

Hi folks, this thread is now closed, as it is beyond our forum's scope of interest or expertise to discuss legal issues, taxes, etc.

Wa'il