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Rosebud
Thu, Oct-05-06, 17:32
http://www.smh.com.au/news/eating-disorder/survival-of-the-thinnest/2006/10/05/1159641434825.html

Is banning skinny models on the runway a real turning point in the size debate?

The dress, leggings and A-line mod styles may have made headlines at this year's international fashion weeks, but the real debate that raged off the runways was the size of the models.

The issue jumped into the limelight after organisers of Madrid Fashion Week banned models with a body mass index - a ratio of height to weight - of less than 18. That meant a model measuring 170 centimetres tall had to weigh at least 52 kilograms. Under such a ruling British supermodel Kate Moss would not be able to take part.

A factor driving the controversy was the death of 22-year-old South American model Luisel Ramos, who suffered a heart attack after stepping off a runway in August. She had been on a three-month diet of green leaves and diet Coke after being told she could be an international sensation - if she lost weight.

There was also a strong reaction to the models at New York Fashion Week, said Tim Gunn, who stars on pay TV's Project Runway and is chairman of the fashion design department at Parsons The New School for Design in New York. "Some of the girls caused you to gasp," he says. "When the knee joint is wider than the thigh, it can be scary."

The debate is intensifying amid concern that the use of spindly models sets unrealistic standards of beauty that encourage young people to crash-diet at the expense of their health. Milan mayor Letizia Moratti urged organisers behind Milan Fashion Week to follow Madrid's example.

The storm only abated after organisers confirmed plans to introduce a new skinny model policy next year. All models will need to present a doctor's certificate of good health before they will be allowed to walk at the autumn season shows in March, while under-age talent will have to be chaperoned.

The British Fashion Council, which organised London Fashion Week, cancelled its photo call after a barrage of criticism for refusing to follow the lead taken by Madrid and ban models under a certain size. A consortium of retailers said they would prohibit extremely thin models from participating in The Clothes Show Live in December, a major UK fashion event that has kicked off the careers of many famous models.

The debate gained high-profile support. Peaches Geldof, the 17-year-old daughter of Sir Bob Geldof and the late Paula Yates, told the British tabloids the issue was "disgusting".

"I think the whole fashion industry needs to wake up. It disgusts me," said Peaches, speaking after the Ben de Lisi show at London Fashion Week. "I've been strong enough to avoid [the pressure to be thin] because I think it's ridiculous, but for a lot of people, when they see a model going down the catwalk ... they think, 'Should I be like this?' - and it leads to disorders or bad body image and I think it's wrong."

The furore also caused a fashion-industry backlash. The Paris ready-to-wear shows kicked off this week with the French fashion industry's leading official saying he did not believe organisers should ban the use of models considered underweight.

Didier Grumbach, head of the Chambre Syndicale, the body that governs French fashion. says it is not the role of fashion to solve public health problems.

"I think it's a non-issue. You don't solve public health problems by regulating the size of models," he says. "You know, fashion is only the reflection of what is happening in society. It is not the cause."

France's health ministry recently announced it was setting up a working group on body image, with the aim of establishing a charter with advertisers banning the use of excessively thin models. Grumbach says he does not plan to take part in the government talks.

"I honestly think we are not responsible for health problems," he says. "Let the health ministry take care of health problems, and let fashion designers choose models according to their taste."

Stuart Rose, chief executive of Marks & Spencer and chairman of the British Fashion Council, says body mass index is only a guide. So long as a girl is exercising and eating right, her body mass index makes little difference.

Some fashion experts say the brouhaha over skinny models is much ado about nothing. "My feeling is that this is a media-generated rehash of an old story," says David Wolfe, creative director at the Doneger Group, a fashion trend consulting firm in New York. "The fact that one show in Madrid banned skinny girls is meaningless thus far." Wolfe says models in the 1950s were virtually the same size as models today, and that even Grace Kelly had a 50-centimetre waist on her wedding day.

In Australia, Sydney modelling agencies came out in support of the ban. Kathy Ward, the director of Chic in Woollahra, says the ban was a positive step.

"I think it's a great move," Ward says. "If girls are too skinny they're not going to get jobs. I'm supportive of what they're doing. It is a positive move for the industry and sets a very good example to the other fashion weeks around the world."

Ward says such a move should be welcomed by the industry as a step towards fostering healthier body images for women.

"In Australia we have a healthier attitude towards body image in that the lifestyle it encourages is outdoor activity and a lot more positive," she says.
Martin Walsh, the director of Chadwick Model Agency in Surry Hills, understands the Madrid ban but believes such a move is unnecessary in Australia. "The truth is the Australian market likes healthy-looking girls ... we never go for anyone that's too thin."

"We would recommend that they [thin models] tone up and would need to be of a certain size. But it's a very relative sort of thing. You can usually tell if someone looks their natural weight."

LilithD
Thu, Oct-05-06, 23:10
"and that even Grace Kelly had a 50-centimetre waist on her wedding day."

That is UNBELIEVABLY small, undless she was using corsets. In the 50s, that was actually quite likely. A corseted waist simply cannot set the standard for a healthy figure.

K Walt
Fri, Oct-06-06, 06:20
Is it just me, or is there some weird disconnect here?

On the one hand, there is endless panic and hand-wringing because we're of the obesity epidemic.

Now others are hand-wringing over skinny is bad.

ojoj
Fri, Oct-06-06, 06:44
Is it just me, or is there some weird disconnect here?

On the one hand, there is endless panic and hand-wringing because we're of the obesity epidemic.

Now others are hand-wringing over skinny is bad.

I agree, I'm not sure anorexia/eating disorders is just about being slim/skinny, I think its more to do with control and self esteem. I could be wrong but I think inspite of the skinny models on the catwalk, there are still infinately more problems with obesity than there are with "skinnies" etc. You only have to look around at the population of young girls to see that there are very few seriously thin ones, but an awful lot of er... larger ones!!

If we're not careful we could find that being even vaguely slim becomes unfashionable and being overweight by todays standards becomes "normal" in the not so distant future???? Moving the goal posts could mean all of us who've hit our targets are suddenly "too thin" and cause for concern??!!!!

Jo

deb34
Fri, Oct-06-06, 07:33
If we're not careful we could find that being even vaguely slim becomes unfashionable and being overweight by todays standards becomes "normal" in the not so distant future???? Moving the goal posts could mean all of us who've hit our targets are suddenly "too thin" and cause for concern??!!!!

our present day society is so shallow that we'll never be in danger of swinging the pendulum to far the other way...Fat is the last socially acceptable taboo...people have to have something to direct their disgust and hatred toward....people need to find something visible to focus on that makes them feel superior to others(you're fat, therefore an uncontrolled slob, whereas i'm thin which means i have self-control and worth)....

heaven forbid that health and stength become the new beauty...we could never let that happen!!!

Frederick
Fri, Oct-06-06, 10:13
heaven forbid that health and stength become the new beauty...we could never let that happen!!!

There's a world of difference between fat, and having health and strength.

An NFL running back who is 5' 10" 220lbs of pure muscle able to run like the wind is a vivid example of "health and strength."

Equally, an NFL lineman who is 6' 3" 300lbs is just fat.

Health and strength have always been viewed as beautiful (for example, the Greek sculptures), and likely always shall.

In my view, we shouldn't confuse society's negative views on fat extrapolating it to apply equally to "health and strength."

Nancy LC
Fri, Oct-06-06, 10:45
Putting out images of women that are desirable, beautiful, and by 98% of women, unattainably thin is very detrimental to women. It cuts into our self-esteem even if we don't readily acknowledge that fact.

I'd love to see women that are closer to the norm being our icons.

Faust
Fri, Oct-06-06, 11:36
Equally, an NFL lineman who is 6' 3" 300lbs is just fat.

Actually an NFL lineman at 300 lbs would probably be considered light nowadays. Especially in places like the interior of the offensive line. Having said that, I hardly think you could consider them "all fat." Anyone who can bench press 225 lbs (the standard test used in evaluating draft picks) 25 or more times (fairly common) is a bit more than an oversized Pillsbury Doughboy, even if they aren't likely candidates for the next Mr. Universe or to complete a marathon.

LilithD
Fri, Oct-06-06, 14:42
Warning, long post:

"always viewed as beautiful" I'm interested in this topic. Throughout history, paintings and sculpures of ideal men, even older ones, show muscular physiques. Apart from a reasonably plump, but still fit and muscular, ideal for men in the Baroque period, and the fact that the naked male was hardly represented in Medieval art, I can think of no exceptions to this.

The ideal for women has shifted far more. In stone age sculpure and drawings, women are hugely fat. Clearly a kind of to fertility goddesses who had produced a lot of children. It figures - before the connection of men to reproduction was made, women were seen as the sole givers of life - pretty powerful role.

In ancient Egypt, taking into account the different body type, ideal women were very slender, but still showed the fertile hip/waist ratio. In Roman and Greek art, women are not obese, but certainly not thin by today's standards. Again, they look fertile: bulging hips and tummies, smallish but pert breasts (good for milk production), plenty of spare fat in the thighs. In medieval art, ideal women are extremely slim (and young), i.e. virginal maidens or nuns. At this highly religious time, fertility was no longer the ideal. I don't think it is a coincidence: when people were dropping like flies from diseases, looking to the next world and shunning this one made sense.

In the Renaissance, the Roman and Greek ideal was back. Look at Boticelli's Venus: definitely chubby by today's standards. In Baroque art, above and below the tiny waists, achieved by corsets, bulged fat. The plumpness of youth was particularly important to being beautiful at this time. Plump women remained in style until the 1920s. Look at Monet's nudes, for example.

The only consistent factors for female beauty seem to be hip/waist ratio and youthful skin. The occasional 1920's type fashion for a 'straight up and down' figure was never, I believe, admired by men and never remained for very long. And the 'spiritual' ideal of medieval maidens reflected a very unhealthy time in history. Is it a coincidence that anorexics also make references to wanting to disappear, to die even? That this is a time of low fertility in Western countries? The current ideal struggles in same way women struggle with their aims in life: to be fertile? To be strong? To be weak and protected? To stay fit and sexually attractive into old age?

So being plump may become an ideal, but it will probably be plump with a relatively small waist, which can be a healthy body shape for women. Bulging 'square' shape waistlines will probably not be the ideal. I've also seen a study that found that the more socially equal men and women are, the closer the female body ideal becomes to the male. I.e. the trend towards admiring tall, slim and well-toned women is not that likely to disappear. However, when this becomes so extreme that women lose their signs of fertility (think women bodybuilders on testosterone or starved catwalk models), there is a backlash. I believe the ideal for women will always be somewhere in the large balance zone between too fat to be fertile and too thin to be fertile.

What does this mean for us? Well, a lot of these ideals were based on youthfulness. In Victorian literature, unmarried women in their late 20s were discarded spinsters. Yet, many people are now living into their 80s and want to remain fit, active and even sexually attractive. Men are not likely to reprogram their basic attraction to fertile women, even if they know that their 60-something partner is not fertile. So maintaining the illusion by keeping the 'fertile looking' waist/hip ratio and reasonably youthful skin will remain important to many women. This is hard to achieve with uncontrolled expanses of fat. It can be achieved by bodybuilding, as can osteoporosis prevention. Here's a link to a women who has done it: http://www.agelesstraining.com/gal-07.htm.

I believe that for babyboomers, at least, this will be the ideal.

ojoj
Sat, Oct-07-06, 04:41
Putting out images of women that are desirable, beautiful, and by 98% of women, unattainably thin is very detrimental to women. It cuts into our self-esteem even if we don't readily acknowledge that fact.

I'd love to see women that are closer to the norm being our icons.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I think there are very few people who actually want to look that thin. I dont think people/women are that gullible, also alot of the models are made-up to look almost "ghostlike" and quite grotesque (IMO), with pale make-up and strange lighting. its not real and not meant to be, its art?!!?? - hey, they even walk funny!!! LOL

I think the thing that rules fashion for the masses and teen-emulation are the "popstars", Brittney, Hillary Buff, Beyonce ....(my age lets me down on anymore names!!)..... Now most of these girls have pretty normal figures, are not skeletal and look absolutely gorgeous and sexy!!



Jo

Lisa N
Sat, Oct-07-06, 06:14
I think there are very few people who actually want to look that thin.

Jo, I agree that there are probably few women who consciously want to be that thin however, it is the standard against which a large percentage of women judge and assess the acceptableness of their own bodies. Standards like that are the reason that my very tiny daughter can poke her legs with her finger and say very seriously, "mom, my thighs are fat, my friends think I should go on a diet". :help:
On a conscious level, most of us look at that level of emaciation and think, "I don't want to go there" while at the same time subsconsiously absorbing the message, "this is what the world considers beautiful".
Standards like that are the reason that very normal weight women can believe that they are still fat and have a lower self esteem than they should because of it. :p

Whoa182
Sat, Oct-07-06, 07:00
Beyonce or shakira is are a good size I think, not too thin and not fat :)
http://www.shakira.znane.com/shakira3.jpg

serrelind
Sat, Oct-07-06, 07:05
Beyonce or shakira is are a good size I think, not too thin and not fat :)
http://www.shakira.znane.com/shakira3.jpg

While we can say Sharika is definitely not fat, I would say she is more on the thin side, but she looks great -- not starved and emaciated.

Whoa182
Sat, Oct-07-06, 07:28
You can see better here in her latest video "hips don't lie - shakira"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYLEIcDHRyg

Shakira is perfect! :)