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monty1945
Thu, Sep-28-06, 06:15
I've posted about this before, but I think there is a better
way of thinking about the situation. I was watching NBC's
nightly news, and of course an "expert" was interviewed by
Brian Williams. She said something about the "fats" being
created "artficially" several decades ago, intimating, of
course, that "trans fat" is some kind of "Frankenfood," when
in fact fatty acids are very simple molecules, and trans fatty
acids occur naturally in small amounts, and have for millions
of years (at least).

So how can this be settled using the scientific method?
Because they are claiming that the process is what is to
blame, and not the unsaturated fatty acids (which get some of
their double bonds changed to saturated ones), the following
is a simple experiment that will make things clear: one batch
of the typical oil used for partial hydrogenation, such as
corn oil, will be totally saturated, while the other batch
will be partially hydrogenated in the usual way. Then, one
group of experimental animals commonly used for fat
experiments will be fed the totally hydrogenated corn oil at
20% of calories, while another group of that species will be
fed 20% partially hydrogenated corn oil each day. We then see
which group lives long, and note what diseases are present
before death.

If it is the process, as if being contended, then they should
all die at about the same age, with the same rates of
whatever diseases that afflict them. If it is the lipid
peroxidation that is causing the problem, as I argue, then
the animals fed the partially hyrdogenated corn oil should
die at younger ages. It's as simple as that, and yet this
experiment has either not been done, or the "experts" do not
want to talk about it. I have not found exactly this
experiment in my research, and I've done a great deal of
research on this subject.

When I have posted about this previously, some have criticized
the posts, claiming that once an unsaturated fatty acid is
changed to a saturated one, it can no longer be considered a
"trans fatty acid," but what the "experts" on the mainstream
news programs are now saying is that it is the process that is
causing problems - they say nothing about how saturated the
fatty acid become during hydrogenation. Moreover, if we accept
the argument of my critics, then a simple question remains,
that is, what is causing the ill health associated with "trans
fat?" I assume we all agree that what is generally referred to
as "trans fat" is unhealthy food. If a fat source has been
fully hydrogenated, they say it is not "trans fat" any longer,
and yet the same fat source that has been only partially
hydrogenated (thus leaving many double bonds intact) is
considered very unhealthy by everyone and should be called
"trans fat." This makes no sense whatsoever. My critics have
now been "backed into a corner" and there is no escape,
because they must either admit that they were wrong in their
previous criticisms, or else argue that a totally hydrogenated
fat source such as corn oil would be just as unhealthy as a
partially hydrogenated one After all, they dismiss the notion
that the fatty acids with double bonds pose a health threat in
this context. But if the experiment is done and the partially
hydrogenated oil fed animals live much shorter lives, this
notion is clearly wrong, and the only interpretation that
makes any sense at all is that the double bonds are being
degraded by free radicals and that the lipid peroxidation is
causing the ill health (as a proverbial mountain of
molecular-level evidence now demonstrates).

Mattlb
Mon, Oct-02-06, 17:16
monty1945@lycos.com wrote:
> She said something about the "fats" being created
> "artficially" several decades ago, intimating, of course,
> that "trans fat" is some kind of "Frankenfood," when in fact
> fatty acids are very simple molecules, and trans fatty acids
> occur naturally in small amounts, and have for millions of
> years (at least).

Trans fats don't occur naturally in the bodies of the majority
of animals and where they do it's usually through bacterial
action. Just as L sugars and D amino acids aren't natural in
the body, nor are trans fatty acids.

> When I have posted about this previously, some have
> criticized the posts, claiming that once an unsaturated
> fatty acid is changed to a saturated one, it can no longer
> be considered a "trans fatty acid," but what the "experts"
> on the mainstream news programs are now saying is that it is
> the process that is causing problems - they say nothing
> about how saturated the fatty acid become during
> hydrogenation.

It's never going to sink in is it? Anything less than total
hydrogenation is likely to result in trans fatty acid
formation. Totally hydrogenated is indistinguishable from
saturated.

> Moreover, if we accept the argument of my critics, then a
> simple question remains, that is, what is causing the ill
> health associated with "trans fat?"

The trans double bonds. Go and read up on geometrical isomers.

> If a fat source has been fully hydrogenated, they say it is
> not "trans fat" any longer, and yet the same fat source that
> has been only partially hydrogenated (thus leaving many
> double bonds intact) is considered very unhealthy by
> everyone and should be called "trans fat." This makes no
> sense whatsoever.

It is both sensible and clear. Only you seem to have a
problem with it.

No double bonds = saturated Trans double bonds = trans
unsaturated Cis double bonds = cis unsaturated (normal
fatty acids)

> My critics have now been "backed into a corner"

Only in your mind.

> and there is no escape, because they must either admit that
> they were wrong in their previous criticisms, or else argue
> that a totally hydrogenated fat source such as corn oil
> would be just as unhealthy as a partially hydrogenated one

Wrong.

> After all, they dismiss the notion that the fatty acids
> with double bonds pose a health threat in this context.

No they don't. They, unlike you, recognise that a cis double
bond is biologically distinct from a trans one. Just as an L
amino acid is distinct from a D one.

> But if the experiment is done and the partially hydrogenated
> oil fed animals live much shorter lives, this notion is
> clearly wrong, and the only interpretation that makes any
> sense at all is that the double bonds are being degraded by
> free radicals and that the lipid peroxidation is

Degraded? Your terminology is as loose as ever, I see.

MattLB

monty1945
Tue, Oct-03-06, 17:16
Then take me up on the experimental offer, "MattLB;"
otherwise, you are demonstrating to the readers that you have
been backed into a corner. You reading comprehension
disability is too great at this point to take your arguments
seriously (and as if usually the case, you either present no
evidennce, or evidence that is not on point), but I am
willing to debate you in a formal, moderated, academic-style
debate on this subject. Again, you are backed into a corner -
anyone with some common sense will see this, though you are
blind to it.

Mattlb
Tue, Oct-03-06, 17:16
monty1945@lycos.com wrote:
> Then take me up on the experimental offer, "MattLB;"

Your experiment has nothing to do with whether trans and
saturated are the same thing. Your experiment answers none
of the challenges I made to your comments. It's the same old
obession wiith how long things live being the gold standard,
even though you always decry epidemiological data when
others use it.

> otherwise, you are demonstrating to the readers that you
> have been backed into a corner.

A corner in which the walls are firm scientific truths. You,
in contrast, are facing into the corner, only able to hear
the echo of your own ideas bouncing back off those resiliant
walls of fact.

> You reading comprehension disability is too great at this
> point to take your arguments seriously (and as if usually
> the case, you either present no evidennce, or evidence that
> is not on point),

See no evidence, hear no evidence, speak no evidence is a good
summary of your M.O.

> but I am willing to debate you in a formal, moderated,
> academic-style debate on this subject.

So why aren't you? Why, as always, have you completely ignored
the challenges to your "facts" even when directed to do
further reading rather than take my word for it?

MattLB

monty1945
Tue, Oct-03-06, 17:16
I challenge your conceptualizations of the issues, as well as
some of your absurd criticisms, such as the notion that there
is anything wrong with the phrase "degraded by free radicals,"
as this is exactly what is happening at the molecular level.
This is why a moderator is needed at this point, or else I am
just wasting time. You apparently think yourself a master at
obfuscation, and I am confident that most people can see
through your nonsensical remarks. However, it is always better
for an independent, non-biased moderator to compel you to stay
on point. There is nothing in my original post that is
inconsistent, but people like yourself can never make a claim
and support it with evidence that is on point. I have asked
you to state the "essential fatty acid claim" as a scientific
hypothesis, yet you never have. However, you expect to be
taken seriously on a forum that is supposed to be based on
science. I no longer take you seriously - I only fear that
others do.

And for others who read this, I ask a simple question: if
you are eating a diet that is tasty, satisifying, causes no
physical distress, is not calorically-restricted, and
maximizes longevity, do you really care about any
nutritional claim ?

Mattlb
Wed, Oct-04-06, 17:16
monty1945@lycos.com wrote:
> I challenge your conceptualizations of the issues,

Without defining them. If you're going to challenge things I
say, be specific and quote what you're challenging. Simply
creating a new post saying "everything you just said was
rubbish" is lazy and not in keeping with the academic debate
you're so fond of saying you want to engage in, yet never do.

> as well as some of your absurd criticisms, such as the
> notion that there is anything wrong with the phrase
> "degraded by free radicals," as this is exactly what is
> happening at the molecular level.

Explain - in molecular detail - the interaction between free
radicals and double bonds as YOU see it, then maybe I can see
where you're coming from.

> This is why a moderator is needed at this point, or else I
> am just wasting time. You apparently think yourself a master
> at obfuscation,

I would use words like obfuscation if I was trying to be that.
I'm not the one coming on here saying the textbooks are all
wrong, nutritionists are a bunch of frauds and that the key to
health is avoiding things that the body has specific enzymes
to progressively modify and retain.

> However, it is always better for an independent, non-biased
> moderator to compel you to stay on point.

How is picking out things you've said and challenging them not
"on point"?

> There is nothing in my original post that is inconsistent,
> but people like yourself can never make a claim and support
> it with evidence that is on point.

I suspect no-one who disagrees with you can ever be "on
point".

> I have asked you to state the "essential fatty acid claim"
> as a scientific hypothesis, yet you never have.

That is off-point for a discussion of trans fatty acids and
how they're different to saturated fatty acids. Equally, you
have never come up with a model of red cell ghosts that
doesn't involve lipid bilayers.

> I no longer take you seriously - I only fear that
> others do.

It's the same for me except that I never took you seriously.

MattLB

Jim Chinni
Thu, Oct-05-06, 06:15
"MattLB" <mattlb@angelfire.com> wrote in part:

>It's the same for me except that I never took you seriously.
>
>MattLB

Why are you carrying on a long dialog with him?
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu

Mattlb
Thu, Oct-05-06, 17:16
Jim Chinnis wrote:
> "MattLB" <mattlb@angelfire.com> wrote in part:
>
> >It's the same for me except that I never took you
> >seriously.
> >
> >MattLB
>
> Why are you carrying on a long dialog with him?

Because the established facts (and people's health) are more
important than anyone's pet theory. He talks with such
apparent certainty that it could be persuasive to many people,
who may damage their health as a result.

MattLB

Jim Chinni
Fri, Oct-06-06, 06:15
"MattLB" <mattlb@angelfire.com> wrote in part:

>Jim Chinnis wrote:
>> "MattLB" <mattlb@angelfire.com> wrote in part:
>>
>> >It's the same for me except that I never took you
>> >seriously.
>> >
>> >MattLB
>>
>> Why are you carrying on a long dialog with him?
>
>Because the established facts (and people's health) are more
>important than anyone's pet theory. He talks with such
>apparent certainty that it could be persuasive to many
>people, who may damage their health as a result.
>
>MattLB

There are morons posting all sorts of crazy stuff. Those who
become followers aren't likely to follow the arguments between
the morons and more intelligent people. But they might notice
if no one paid any attention to the morons.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA jchinnis@alum.mit.edu