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Ironjustic

Tue, Sep-26-06, 17:16

Soy protein diet improves endothelial dysfunction in renal
transplant patients. Cupisti A, Ghiadoni L, D'Alessandro C,
Kardasz I, Morelli E, Panichi V, Locati D, Morandi S, Saba A,
Barsotti G, Taddei S, Arnoldi A, Salvetti A Nephrol Dial
Transplant. 2006 Sep 23;

BACKGROUND: Since it has been demonstrated that soy diet can
improve endothelial function, in the present study we
evaluated the effect of dietary substitution of 25 g of animal
proteins with soy proteins on endothelial dysfunction in renal
transplant patients. METHODS: In 20 renal transplant patients
(55 +/- 11 years, serum creatinine 1.7 +/- .6 mg/dl), brachial
artery flow mediated dilation (FMD) and
endothelium-independent vasodilation (sublingual
nitroglycerine, 25 microg) were measured at baseline, after 5
weeks of a soy diet and finally after 5 weeks of soy wash-out.
Changes in plasma lipids, markers of oxidative stress (lipid
peroxides, LOOH) and inflammation (C-reactive protein),
isoflavones (genistein and daidzein), asymmetric dimethyl
arginine (ADMA) and l-arginine were also evaluated. RESULTS:
At baseline, patients showed a significantly lower FMD as
compared with age-matched healthy subjects (3.2 +/- 1.8 vs 6.3
+/- 1.9, respectively; P < 0.001), while response to
nitroglycerine was similar. After soy diet, actual protein
intake was not changed, cholesterol and lipid peroxides were
significantly reduced, and isoflavones were detectable in
plasma. Soy diet was associated with a significant improvement
in FMD (4.4 +/- 2.0; P = 0.003 vs baseline), while response to
nitroglycerine was unchanged. Improvement in FMD was related
to l-arginine/ADMA ratio changes, but no significant relation
was found to changes in cholesterol, lipid peroxides or
genistein and daidzein plasma concentrations. After 5 weeks of
soy diet discontinuation, FMD
(3.3 +/- 1.7%) returned to baseline values and isoflavones
were no longer detectable in plasma. CONCLUSIONS: A soy
protein diet for 5 weeks improves endothelial function in
renal transplant patients. This effect seems to be strictly
dependent on soy intake as it disappears after soy
withdrawal and is mediated by an increase in the
l-arginine/ADMA ratio, independently of change in lipid
profile, oxidative stress or isoflavones.

Who loves ya. Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

Matti Nark

Tue, Sep-26-06, 17:16

On 26 Sep 2006 07:04:41 -0700, "ironjustice@aol.com"
<ironjustice@aol.com> wrote:

>Soy protein diet improves endothelial dysfunction in renal
>transplant patients. Cupisti A, Ghiadoni L, D'Alessandro C,
>Kardasz I, Morelli E, Panichi V, Locati D, Morandi S, Saba A,
>Barsotti G, Taddei S, Arnoldi A, Salvetti A Nephrol Dial
>Transplant. 2006 Sep 23;
>
And animal studies suggest that _fish_ protein may prevent
insulin resistance and thus type 2 diabetes. And a Swedish
study with humans suggests that fish protein may protect type
1 diabetes patients from microalbuminuria und thus perhaps
from kidney damage.

Here some evidence: The study

Lavigne C, Tremblay F, Asselin G, Jacques H, Marette A.
Prevention of skeletal muscle insulin resistance by dietary
cod protein in high fat-fed rats. Am J Physiol Endocrinol
Metab. 2001 Jul;281(1):E62-71. PMID: 11404223 [PubMed -
indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/281/1/E62>

suggests that fish protein may prevent high fat diet induced
insulin resistance and hence type 2 diabetes in rats.
Selected excerpts:

"In the present study, we tested the hypothesis that fish
protein may represent a key constituent of fish with
glucoregulatory activity. Three groups of rats were fed a
high- fat diet in which the protein source was casein,
fish (cod) protein, or soy protein; these groups were
compared with a group of chow-fed controls. High-fat
feeding led to severe whole body and skeletal muscle
insulin resistance in casein- or soy protein-fed rats, as
assessed by the euglycemic clamp technique coupled with
measurements of 2-deoxy-D-[(3)H]glucose uptake rates by
individual tissues. However, feeding cod protein fully
prevented the development of insulin resistance in high
fat-fed rats. These animals exhibited higher rates of
insulin-mediated muscle glucose disposal that were
comparable to those of chow-fed rats. The beneficial
effects of cod protein occurred without any reductions in
body weight gain, adipose tissue accretion, or expression
of tumor necrosis factor-alpha in fat and muscle.
Moreover, L6 myocytes exposed to cod protein-derived amino
acids showed greater rates of insulin-stimulated glucose
uptake compared with cells incubated with casein- or soy
protein-derived amino acids. These data demonstrate that
feeding cod protein prevents obesity-induced muscle
insulin resistance in high fat-fed obese rats at least in
part through a direct action of amino acids on insulin-
stimulated glucose uptake in skeletal muscle cells.

[...]

In summary, the present study shows that dietary cod
protein prevents the development of skeletal muscle
insulin resistance in high fat-fed obese rats. The
beneficial action of cod protein on insulin sensitivity
occurred without reductions in body weight or adiposity,
strongly suggesting that cod protein protects from
obesity-induced insulin resistance. The effect of dietary
cod protein appears to involve, at least in part, a direct
action of cod protein-derived amino acids on insulin-
stimulated glucose transport in skeletal muscle cells.
Interest in the present data also arises from the fact
that increased cod protein consumption is easily
implementable in humans within guidelines of daily
recommended allowances of essential nutrients (12, 18) and
thus could represent a novel nutraceutical approach in
preventing the development of insulin resistance in
obesity. Because insulin resistance is a central factor in
visceral obesity-associated complications such as
hypertension, diabetes, and cardiovascular diseases (2, 6,
8), dietary cod protein may contribute to prevent the many
metabolic aberrations that accompany the obese state."

A follow-up study from the same research team:

Tremblay F, Lavigne C, Jacques H, Marette A. Dietary cod
protein restores insulin-induced activation of
phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase/Akt and GLUT4 translocation to
the T-tubules in skeletal muscle of high-fat-fed obese rats.
Diabetes. 2003 Jan;52(1):29-37. PMID: 12502490 [PubMed -
indexed for MEDLINE] <http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/cg-
i/content/full/52/1/29>

"Diet-induced obesity is known to cause peripheral insulin
resistance in rodents. We have recently found that feeding
cod protein to high-fat-fed rats prevents the development
of insulin resistance in skeletal muscle. In the present
study, we have further explored the cellular mechanisms
behind this beneficial effect of cod protein on skeletal
muscle insulin sensitivity. Rats were fed a standard chow
diet or a high-fat diet in which the protein source was
either casein, soy, or cod proteins for 4 weeks.
Whole-body and muscle glucose disposal were reduced by
approximately 50% in rats fed high-fat diets with casein
or soy proteins, but these impairments were not observed
in animals fed cod protein. Insulin-induced tyrosine
phosphorylation of the insulin receptor and insulin
receptor substrate (IRS) proteins were similar in muscle
of chow- and high-fat-fed rats regardless of the dietary
protein source. However, IRS-1-associated
phosphatidylinositol (PI) 3-kinase activity was severely
impaired (-60%) in muscle of high-fat-fed rats consuming
casein or soy protein. In marked contrast, feeding rats
with cod protein completely prevented the deleterious
effect of fat feeding on insulin-stimulated PI 3- kinase
activity. The activation of the downstream kinase Akt/PKB
by insulin, assessed by in vitro kinase assay and
phosphorylation of GSK-3beta, were also impaired in muscle
of high-fat-fed rats consuming casein or soy protein, but
these defects were also fully prevented by dietary cod
protein. However, no effect of cod protein was observed on
atypical protein kinase C activity. Normalization of PI
3-kinase/Akt activation by insulin in rats fed high-fat
diets with cod protein was associated with improved
translocation of GLUT4 to the T-tubules but not to the
plasma membrane. Taken together, these results show that
dietary cod protein is a natural insulin-sensitizing agent
that appears to prevent obesity- linked muscle insulin
resistance by normalizing insulin activation of the PI
3-kinase/Akt pathway and by selectively improving GLUT4
translocation to the T-tubules.

[...]

In summary, this study provides convincing evidence that
dietary proteins are important modulators of insulin
signaling and action in rat skeletal muscle. Furthermore,
we showed that dietary cod protein is a potent and natural
insulin-sensitizing agent that normalizes the activation
status of the PI 3- kinase/Akt pathway coupled to an
increased translocation of GLUT4 to the T-tubules in obese
high-fat-fed rats. Identification of the precise molecular
mechanism by which dietary cod protein improves insulin
signaling to PI 3- kinase/Akt will help defining novel
therapeutic tools for the prevention and treatment of
insulin resistance."

Another potential benefit from fish protein: A Swedish study

Mollsten AV, Dahlquist GG, Stattin EL, Rudberg S. Higher
intakes of fish protein are related to a lower risk of
microalbuminuria in young Swedish type 1 diabetic patients.
Diabetes Care. 2001 May;24(5):805-10. PMID: 11347734 [PubMed -
indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/24/5/805>

found that fish protein may protect from microalbuminuria in
type 1 diabetes. Brief excerpts:

"... CONCLUSIONS: Total protein and fat intake were not
associated with the presence of microalbuminuria, but a
diet including a high amount of fish protein seemed to
lessen the risk.

[...]

In conclusion, our results do not give evidence for the
suggestion that a high-protein diet increases the risk
for incipient diabetic nephropathy. Rather, a diet rich
in fish protein seems to provide protection from this
complication."

>Who loves ya. Tom
>
>
>Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
>
No, Jesus was a fish eater.
>
>Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3
>
No, before the invention of agriculture some 10000-15000 years
ago our hunter-gatherer ancestors evolved on and adapted to a
high protein, low carbohydrate diet, where carbohydrates
provided 22-40% of calories, and where animal meat was an
important part of diet.

--
Matti Narkia

crvc56

Tue, Sep-26-06, 17:16

> >
> No, before the invention of agriculture some 10000-15000
> years ago our hunter-gatherer ancestors evolved on and
> adapted to a high protein, low carbohydrate diet, where
> carbohydrates provided 22-40% of calories, and where animal
> meat was an important part of diet.
>
>
> --
> Matti Narkia

But our hunter-gatherer ancestors didn't live to see the
ripe old age of 30, in most cases. It can be argued that we
were gathers long before we were hunters. But only in
recent history have people begun dying from eating TOO MUCH
food, regardless of whether it's meat or not. We've evolved
enough to see what's killing us but haven't evolved enough
to stop doing it.

Tue, Sep-26-06, 17:16

crvc56@msn.com wrote:
> > >
> > No, before the invention of agriculture some 10000-15000
> > years ago our hunter-gatherer ancestors evolved on and
> > adapted to a high protein, low carbohydrate diet, where
> > carbohydrates provided 22-40% of calories, and where
> > animal meat was an important part of diet.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Matti Narkia
>
> But our hunter-gatherer ancestors didn't live to see the
> ripe old age of 30, in most cases. It can be argued that we
> were gathers long before we were hunters. But only in recent
> history have people begun dying from eating TOO MUCH food,
> regardless of whether it's meat or not. We've evolved enough
> to see what's killing us but haven't evolved enough to stop
> doing it.

What is killing us and making us obese is the grain-based
diet. It isn't that we are eating too much, it is that we are
eating too much grain, refined grain products, and sugars. Not
to mention vegetable oils that are new to our diet. Especially
the hydrogenated vegetable oils. Just like refined white flour
and refined white sugar, overly processed refined hydrogenated
vegetable oils are slow poisons.

TC

Matti Nark

Tue, Sep-26-06, 17:16

On 26 Sep 2006 10:02:09 -0700, crvc56@msn.com wrote:
> > >
>> No, before the invention of agriculture some 10000-15000
>> years ago our hunter-gatherer ancestors evolved on and
>> adapted to a high protein, low carbohydrate diet, where
>> carbohydrates provided 22-40% of calories, and where animal
>> meat was an important part of diet.
>>
>But our hunter-gatherer ancestors didn't live to see the ripe
>old age of 30, in most cases.

Even if that were true, it's irrelevant. The issue was what
kind of diet we have adapted to and at least for the last two
million years excluding the last 10000-15000 years of
agriculture era that has been a high protein, low carb diet
containg large amount of meat.

As for the life expectation of our ancestora: not only were
they missing all medical care of modern times, but besides
being hunters, they were also hunted, and when they became too
old to catch prey, they probably died of hunger or became
hunted down.

>It can be argued that we were gathers long before we
>were hunters.

Some of our ancestor were vegetarian gatherers, but during the
last two million years of evolution, humans were primarily
carnivorous,
i.e., flesh-eating hunters consuming a low-carbohydrate,
high-protein diet.

References:

Perspectives on Nutrition in Related Species Man's Ancestry
and Diet Nutrition by Ron Kennedy, M.D., Santa Rosa,
California
<http://www.medical-library.net/sites/_nutrition.html>:

Meat-eating was essential for human evolution, says UC
Berkeley anthropologist specializing in diet <http://www.berk-
eley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/6-14-1999a.html>:

Hominid Species Timeline <http://www.wsu.edu/gened/learn-modu-
les/top_longfor/timeline/timeline.html>

Cordain L, Eaton SB, Sebastian A, Mann N, Lindeberg S, Watkins
BA, O'Keefe JH, Brand-Miller J. Origins and evolution of the
Western diet: health implications for the 21st century. Am J
Clin Nutr. 2005 Feb;81(2):341-54. Review. PMID: 15699220
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/81/2/341>

Mann NJ. Paleolithic nutrition: what can we learn from the
past? Asia Pac J Clin Nutr. 2004;13(Suppl):S17. PMID:
15294479 [PubMed - in process] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/-
entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&l-
ist_uids=1529447>

Cordain L, Eaton SB, Miller JB, Mann N, Hill K. The
paradoxical nature of hunter-gatherer diets: meat-based, yet
non-atherogenic. Eur J Clin Nutr. 2002 Mar;56 Suppl 1:S42-52.
Review. PMID: 11965522 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http:/-
/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retriev-
e&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=11965522>

Cordain L, Miller JB, Eaton SB, Mann N, Holt SH, Speth JD.
Plant-animal subsistence ratios and macronutrient energy
estimations in worldwide hunter-gatherer diets. Am J Clin
Nutr. 2000 Mar;71(3):682-92. PMID: 10702160 [PubMed - indexed
for MEDLINE] <http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/71/3/682>

Miller JC, Colagiuri S. The carnivore connection: dietary
carbohydrate in the evolution of NIDDM. Diabetologia. 1994
Dec;37(12):1280-6. PMID: 7895958 [PubMed - indexed for
MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pu-
bmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=7895958>

Colagiuri S, Brand Miller JC. The metabolic syndrome: from
inherited survival trait to a health care problem. Exp Clin
Endocrinol Diabetes. 1997;105 Suppl 2:54-60. Review. PMID:
9288547 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.n-
ih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract-
Plus&list_uids=9288547>

Colagiuri S, Brand Miller J. The 'carnivore
connection'--evolutionary aspects of insulin resistance. Eur J
Clin Nutr. 2002 Mar;56 Suppl 1:S30-5. Review. PMID: 11965520
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/e-
ntrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&lis-
t_uids=11965520>

>But only in recent history have people begun dying from
>eating TOO MUCH food, regardless of whether it's meat or not.
>We've evolved enough to see what's killing us but haven't
>evolved enough to stop doing it.

On that I agree with you. As for meat, current meat of
domesticated farm raised grain-fed animals is very different
from the meat of wild stone age animals. Todays's meat is
probably not healthy, at least not in large amounts. I don't
eat meat, but I eat plenty of fish.

--
Matti Narkia

Vernon

Tue, Sep-26-06, 17:16

<crvc56@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1159290129.177880.65390@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > >
>> No, before the invention of agriculture some 10000-15000
>> years ago our hunter-gatherer ancestors evolved on and
>> adapted to a high protein, low carbohydrate diet, where
>> carbohydrates provided 22-40% of calories, and where animal
>> meat was an important part of diet.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matti Narkia
>
> But our hunter-gatherer ancestors didn't live to see the
> ripe old age of 30, in most cases. It can be argued that we
> were gathers long before we were hunters. But only in recent
> history have people begun dying from eating TOO MUCH food,
> regardless of whether it's meat or not. We've evolved enough
> to see what's killing us but haven't evolved enough to stop
> doing it.
>

Age is always stated as "average" Some lived to a very old
age, possibly 100. Disease was not understood and most died
from the environment or were killed. Some were eaten. Wars and
tribal genocides were the norm.

It is pretty difficult to be a gatherer and not a hunter. That
is a fairy tale made by people who have probably never walked
in the woods or forest, much less tried to survive. Fish has
been key in human survival.

Guess what, Humans, bears, pigs are more alike than any other
digestive and nutrient system.

NoOption5L

Wed, Sep-27-06, 06:15

TC wrote:
> TC wrote:

> What is killing us and making us obese is the grain-based
> diet. It isn't that we are eating too much, it is that we
> are eating too much grain, refined grain products, and
> sugars. Not to mention vegetable oils that are new to our
> diet. Especially the hydrogenated vegetable oils. Just like
> refined white flour and refined white sugar, overly
> processed refined hydrogenated vegetable oils are slow
> poisons.

That's a fallacy brought to us by the latest in a long string
of fade diets -- "low-carb". While refined carbs via soda pop,
sugary juices, and products made from gummy white flour are
certainly a significant part of the problem, to make no
mention of, or worse completely exonerate, deep-fried [Long
John Silver's] fish, greasy [Big Mac/Burger King/Wendy's]
double-bacon cheeseburgers, slimey [Kentucky Fried] chicken,
and artery-stopping [Pizza Hut] "Meat Lovers" pizza is a huge
disservice to this NG. And your continuous attempt to link and
confuse refined grain with nutrious whole grain and
hydrogenated oils with healthy unrefined vegetable oils, at
best, could be described as mischievous. So why don't you just
stop the nonsense?

Patrick

Wed, Sep-27-06, 06:15

NoOption5L@aol.com wrote:
> TC wrote:
> > TC wrote:
>
> > What is killing us and making us obese is the grain-based
> > diet. It isn't that we are eating too much, it is that we
> > are eating too much grain, refined grain products, and
> > sugars. Not to mention vegetable oils that are new to our
> > diet. Especially the hydrogenated vegetable oils. Just
> > like refined white flour and refined white sugar, overly
> > processed refined hydrogenated vegetable oils are slow
> > poisons.
>
> That's a fallacy brought to us by the latest in a long
> string of fade diets -- "low-carb". While refined carbs via
> soda pop, sugary juices, and products made from gummy white
> flour are certainly a significant part of the problem,

One the one hand it is a "fallacy" and on the other hand it is
a "significant part of the problem" ????? Which one is it? Is
it a "fallacy" or is it a "significant part of the problem"?
Make up your mind.

> to make no mention of, or worse completely exonerate,
> deep-fried [Long John Silver's] fish,

with a large order of chips and a large soda

> greasy [Big Mac/Burger

with a super sized fry and a 3/4 gallon jug of sugar water

> King/Wendy's] double-bacon cheeseburgers,

and a fries and drink

> slimey [Kentucky Fried] chicken,

and a fries and drink

> and artery-stopping [Pizza Hut] "Meat Lovers" pizza is a
> huge disservice to this NG.

on a one-inch thick white flour crust and with a large soda

> And your continuous attempt to link and confuse refined
> grain with nutrious whole grain and hydrogenated oils with
> healthy unrefined vegetable oils, at best, could be
> described as mischievous. So why don't you just stop the
> nonsense?
>
> Patrick

"nutritious" whole grain is only refined white grain flour
with the left overs mixed back in. It is still over
processed stale grain with all kinds of added chemicals to
preserve it and stop it from clumping. You've been had by
the grain industry.

And there is nothing magical in grains that cannot be gotten
in greater amounts and in better forms from real fresh whole
produce. Grains are entirely superfluous to the human diet.

Name me one vegetable oil that is not refined. Except for
extra virgin olive oil. Name me one that isn't heated,
treated, filtered and processed to death. Do you know what
they do to corn oil, canola oil, soy oil and other vegetable
oils before it is poured in a bottle and shipped to your
grocer? You would be surprised how heavily processed it
actually is. It is rendered as dead a food as refined white
flour and ultra high temp pasteurized milk. These foods are
processed to death and it does not matter how fancy, glossy
and green the label is, it is still a dead food.

There is nothing mischievous about the crap that is foisted
upon us as supposedly healthy foods.

TC

George Che

Wed, Sep-27-06, 06:15

Wed, Sep-27-06, 17:15

George Cherry wrote:
> NoOption5L@aol.com wrote:
> > TC wrote:
> > > TC wrote:
> >
> > > What is killing us and making us obese is the
> > > grain-based diet. It isn't that we are eating too much,
> > > it is that we are eating too much grain, refined grain
> > > products, and sugars. Not to mention vegetable oils that
> > > are new to our diet. Especially the hydrogenated
> > > vegetable oils. Just like refined white flour and
> > > refined white sugar, overly processed refined
> > > hydrogenated vegetable oils are slow poisons.
> >
> > That's a fallacy brought to us by the latest in a long
> > string of fade diets -- "low-carb". While refined carbs
> > via soda pop, sugary juices, and products made from gummy
> > white flour are certainly a significant part of the
> > problem, to make no mention of, or worse completely
> > exonerate, deep-fried [Long John Silver's] fish, greasy
> > [Big Mac/Burger King/Wendy's] double-bacon cheeseburgers,
> > slimey [Kentucky Fried] chicken, and artery-stopping
> > [Pizza Hut] "Meat Lovers" pizza is a huge disservice to
> > this NG. And your continuous attempt to link and confuse
> > refined grain with nutrious whole grain and hydrogenated
> > oils with healthy unrefined vegetable oils, at best, could
> > be described as mischievous. So why don't you just stop
> > the nonsense?
>
> He can't. He's possessed by a single idea.

As are you, doncha know.

TC

Wed, Sep-27-06, 17:15

Vernon wrote:
> <NoOption5L@aol.com> wrote in message news:1159314736.57608-
> 3.284010@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > TC wrote:
> >> TC wrote:
> >
> >> What is killing us and making us obese is the grain-based
> >> diet. It isn't that we are eating too much, it is that we
> >> are eating too much grain, refined grain products, and
> >> sugars. Not to mention vegetable oils that are new to our
> >> diet. Especially the hydrogenated vegetable oils. Just
> >> like refined white flour and refined white sugar, overly
> >> processed refined hydrogenated vegetable oils are slow
> >> poisons.
> >
> > That's a fallacy brought to us by the latest in a long
> > string of fade diets -- "low-carb". While refined carbs
> > via soda pop, sugary juices, and products made from gummy
> > white flour are certainly a significant part of the
> > problem, to make no mention of, or worse completely
> > exonerate, deep-fried [Long John Silver's] fish, greasy
> > [Big Mac/Burger King/Wendy's] double-bacon cheeseburgers,
> > slimey [Kentucky Fried] chicken, and artery-stopping
> > [Pizza Hut] "Meat Lovers" pizza is a huge disservice to
> > this NG. And your continuous attempt to link and confuse
> > refined grain with nutrious whole grain and hydrogenated
> > oils with healthy unrefined vegetable oils, at best, could
> > be described as mischievous. So why don't you just stop
> > the nonsense?
> >
> > Patrick
> >
>
> 1. Keep calories from carbohydrates under 40% of the diet no
> matter whether so called simple or complex.
> 2. Avoid hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated oils of
> any kind
>
> Meat NEVER hurt any normal person.
>
> Protein, oils, and fiber are a requirement. It takes a lot
> of vegetables and fruits to get sufficient fiber. They also
> contain carbohydrates. That doesn't leave much room for too
> much meat and very little room for much grains and
> practically NO room for soda pop or candy.
>
> BTW a Big Mac with onions, lettuce, tomatoes, cheese (no
> fries), (no pop of ANY kind) is one of the healthier dinners
> around. It's all relative.

I tend to agree with you, except it seems that you are
using the terms "simple carbs" and "complex carbs" in the
wrong context.

Simple carbs are sugars which have simple singular molecular
structures. Complex carbs are starches which have complex
chains of molecules connected together. They are both refined
high-GI carbs and they both have similar effects to the human
body, ie. obesity, diabetes, etc.

I think you meant to suggest that carbs be kept to less than
40% whether they are refined high-GI carbs or real fresh
whole-food carbs.

I agree with the less than 40% carb consumption overall, but
refined carbs (sugars and starches) are slow poisons that
provide no useful nutrition and cause short-term nutrient
depletion, immediate nutrient displacement, chronic
inflammation on a molecular level, and long term chronic
disease. The less the better.

TC

Vernon

Wed, Sep-27-06, 17:15

<NoOption5L@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1159314736.576083.284010@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> TC wrote:
>> TC wrote:
>
>> What is killing us and making us obese is the grain-based
>> diet. It isn't that we are eating too much, it is that we
>> are eating too much grain, refined grain products, and
>> sugars. Not to mention vegetable oils that are new to our
>> diet. Especially the hydrogenated vegetable oils. Just like
>> refined white flour and refined white sugar, overly
>> processed refined hydrogenated vegetable oils are slow
>> poisons.
>
> That's a fallacy brought to us by the latest in a long
> string of fade diets -- "low-carb". While refined carbs via
> soda pop, sugary juices, and products made from gummy white
> flour are certainly a significant part of the problem, to
> make no mention of, or worse completely exonerate,
> deep-fried [Long John Silver's] fish, greasy [Big Mac/Burger
> King/Wendy's] double-bacon cheeseburgers, slimey [Kentucky
> Fried] chicken, and artery-stopping [Pizza Hut] "Meat
> Lovers" pizza is a huge disservice to this NG. And your
> continuous attempt to link and confuse refined grain with
> nutrious whole grain and hydrogenated oils with healthy
> unrefined vegetable oils, at best, could be described as
> mischievous. So why don't you just stop the nonsense?
>
> Patrick
>

1. Keep calories from carbohydrates under 40% of the diet no
matter whether so called simple or complex.
2. Avoid hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated oils of any
kind

Meat NEVER hurt any normal person.

Protein, oils, and fiber are a requirement. It takes a lot of
vegetables and fruits to get sufficient fiber. They also
contain carbohydrates. That doesn't leave much room for too
much meat and very little room for much grains and practically
NO room for soda pop or candy.

BTW a Big Mac with onions, lettuce, tomatoes, cheese (no
fries), (no pop of ANY kind) is one of the healthier dinners
around. It's all relative.

George Che

Wed, Sep-27-06, 17:15

Mr. Natura

Thu, Sep-28-06, 06:15

TC wrote:

> What is killing us and making us obese is the
> grain-based diet. It isn't that we are eating too much,
> it is that we are eating too much grain, refined grain
> products, and sugars.

http://naturalhealthperspective.com/food/whole-grains.html ht-
tp://naturalhealthperspective.com/tutorials/john-kellogg.html

What is killing us is morons like TC.

You have my condolences.

Thu, Sep-28-06, 06:15

George Cherry wrote:
> "Vernon" <athere@athere> wrote in message
> news:451aae94$0$23887$882e0bbb@news.ThunderNews.com...
> >
> > <NoOption5L@aol.com> wrote in message news:1159314736.576-
> > 083.284010@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >> TC wrote:
> >>> TC wrote:
> >>
> >>> What is killing us and making us obese is the
> >>> grain-based diet. It isn't that we are eating too much,
> >>> it is that we are eating too much grain, refined grain
> >>> products, and sugars. Not to mention vegetable oils that
> >>> are new to our diet. Especially the hydrogenated
> >>> vegetable oils. Just like refined white flour and
> >>> refined white sugar, overly processed refined
> >>> hydrogenated vegetable oils are slow poisons.
> >>
> >> That's a fallacy brought to us by the latest in a long
> >> string of fade diets -- "low-carb". While refined carbs
> >> via soda pop, sugary juices, and products made from gummy
> >> white flour are certainly a significant part of the
> >> problem, to make no mention of, or worse completely
> >> exonerate, deep-fried [Long John Silver's] fish, greasy
> >> [Big Mac/Burger King/Wendy's] double-bacon cheeseburgers,
> >> slimey [Kentucky Fried] chicken, and artery-stopping
> >> [Pizza Hut] "Meat Lovers" pizza is a huge disservice to
> >> this NG. And your continuous attempt to link and confuse
> >> refined grain with nutrious whole grain and hydrogenated
> >> oils with healthy unrefined vegetable oils, at best,
> >> could be described as mischievous. So why don't you just
> >> stop the nonsense?
> >>
> >> Patrick
> >>
> >
> > 1. Keep calories from carbohydrates under 40% of the diet
> > no matter whether so called simple or complex.
> > 2. Avoid hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated oils of
> > any kind
> >
> > Meat NEVER hurt any normal person.
> >
> > Protein, oils, and fiber are a requirement. It takes a lot
> > of vegetables and fruits to get sufficient fiber. They
> > also contain carbohydrates. That doesn't leave much room
> > for too much meat and very little room for much grains and
> > practically NO room for soda pop or candy.
> >
> > BTW a Big Mac with onions, lettuce, tomatoes, cheese (no
> > fries), (no pop of ANY kind) is one of the healthier
> > dinners around. It's all relative.
>
> What about the bun? What's that good for?

Not much except keeping the condiments off your fingers.

TC

NoOption5L

Thu, Sep-28-06, 06:15

TC wrote:

> > > What is killing us and making us obese is the
> > > grain-based diet. It isn't that we are eating too much,
> > > it is that we are eating too much grain, refined grain
> > > products, and sugars. Not to mention vegetable oils that
> > > are new to our diet. Especially the hydrogenated
> > > vegetable oils. Just like refined white flour and
> > > refined white sugar, overly processed refined
> > > hydrogenated vegetable oils are slow poisons.

> > That's a fallacy brought to us by the latest in a long
> > string of fade diets -- "low-carb". While refined carbs
> > via soda pop, sugary juices, and products made from gummy
> > white flour are certainly a significant part of the
> > problem,

> One the one hand it is a "fallacy" and on the other hand it
> is a "significant part of the problem" ????? Which one is
> it? Is it a "fallacy" or is it a "significant part of the
> problem"? Make up your mind.

Low-carb fallacy = we're eating too much grain.

Fact = we're eating too much *refined* grain.

> > to make no mention of, or worse completely exonerate,
> > deep-fried [Long John Silver's] fish,

> with a large order of chips and a large soda

Instead exchange for: Broiled salmon + baked sweet potato
+ green tea

> > greasy [Big Mac/Burger

> with a super sized fry and a 3/4 gallon jug of sugar water

Replace with: Lean roast beef + whole wheat bread + romaine
lettuce + tomatos + water with a slice of lemon

> > King/Wendy's] double-bacon cheeseburgers,

> and a fries and drink

Replace with: Ostrich burger + spinach salad + glass of milk

> > slimey [Kentucky Fried] chicken,

> and a fries and drink

Replace with: Baked chicken breast + brown rice + glass of
fresh squeezed orange juice

> > and artery-stopping [Pizza Hut] "Meat Lovers" pizza is a
> > huge disservice to this NG.

> on a one-inch thick white flour crust and with a large soda

Replace with homemade whole-wheat crust/sesame seeds + tomato
sauce + green/red/yellow peppers, onions, mushrooms, pineapple
+ tall glass of water

So we're in agreement then? The whole fast food meal is crap
-- crappy meat and crappy carbs, and too much of both,
rrrrighttttt....?

> > And your continuous attempt to link and confuse refined
> > grain with nutrious whole grain and hydrogenated oils with
> > healthy unrefined vegetable oils, at best, could be
> > described as mischievous. So why don't you just stop the
> > nonsense?

> "nutritious" whole grain is only refined white grain flour
> with the left overs mixed back in. It is still over
> processed stale grain with all kinds of added chemicals to
> preserve it and stop it from clumping. You've been had by
> the grain industry.

Dr. Adkins/Zone Diet has made/sold the grain conspiracy well.
Did you get to the part in their books where they tell you
that grains are actually foreign to the earth and were
brought here by the aliens that crashed in Roswell?

> And there is nothing magical in grains that cannot be gotten
> in greater amounts and in better forms from real fresh whole
> produce. Grains are entirely superfluous to the human diet.

You don't need to eat grains to survive... now that's a real
startling revelation. But did you know that could be said of
any food -- meat, eggs, milk, cheese, citrus fruits, beans,
nuts, seeds, green beans or pumpkin pie?

So why do you continue to crack on _whole_ grains? They're
packed with nutrients and fiber. Plus, unlike the white bread
buns and crusts served in the fast food places and most
everywhere else, whole grain breads fill you up and keep you
filled up. Don't believe me? Try eating a bowl of hot oatmeal
in the morning.

> Name me one vegetable oil that is not refined. Except for
> extra virgin olive oil. Name me one that isn't heated,
> treated, filtered and processed to death. Do you know what
> they do to corn oil, canola oil, soy oil and other vegetable
> oils before it is poured in a bottle and shipped to your
> grocer? You would be surprised how heavily processed it
> actually is. It is rendered as dead a food as refined white
> flour and ultra high temp pasteurized milk. These foods are
> processed to death and it does not matter how fancy, glossy
> and green the label is, it is still a dead food.

Have you seen the processing that takes place in our meat
industry and packing plants? If you have, why don't you EVER
mention it?

> There is nothing mischievous about the crap that is foisted
> upon us as supposedly healthy foods.

I agree. My beef <no pun intended> is that you EXCLUSIVELY
rail against grains/carbs, but NEVER say a negative word about
the dog food served in fast food restaurants and elsewhere
that the meat industry calls fit for human consumption.

So I for one would like to know why you're so damned biased.

Patrick

George Che

Thu, Sep-28-06, 06:15

"Vernon" <athere@athere> wrote in message
news:451aae94$0$23887$882e0bbb@news.ThunderNews.com...
>
> <NoOption5L@aol.com> wrote in message news:1159314736.57608-
> 3.284010@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> TC wrote:
>>> TC wrote:
>>
>>> What is killing us and making us obese is the grain-based
>>> diet. It isn't that we are eating too much, it is that we
>>> are eating too much grain, refined grain products, and
>>> sugars. Not to mention vegetable oils that are new to our
>>> diet. Especially the hydrogenated vegetable oils. Just
>>> like refined white flour and refined white sugar, overly
>>> processed refined hydrogenated vegetable oils are slow
>>> poisons.
>>
>> That's a fallacy brought to us by the latest in a long
>> string of fade diets -- "low-carb". While refined carbs via
>> soda pop, sugary juices, and products made from gummy white
>> flour are certainly a significant part of the problem, to
>> make no mention of, or worse completely exonerate,
>> deep-fried [Long John Silver's] fish, greasy [Big
>> Mac/Burger King/Wendy's] double-bacon cheeseburgers, slimey
>> [Kentucky Fried] chicken, and artery-stopping [Pizza Hut]
>> "Meat Lovers" pizza is a huge disservice to this NG. And
>> your continuous attempt to link and confuse refined grain
>> with nutrious whole grain and hydrogenated oils with
>> healthy unrefined vegetable oils, at best, could be
>> described as mischievous. So why don't you just stop the
>> nonsense?
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>
> 1. Keep calories from carbohydrates under 40% of the diet no
> matter whether so called simple or complex.
> 2. Avoid hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated oils of
> any kind
>
> Meat NEVER hurt any normal person.
>
> Protein, oils, and fiber are a requirement. It takes a lot
> of vegetables and fruits to get sufficient fiber. They also
> contain carbohydrates. That doesn't leave much room for too
> much meat and very little room for much grains and
> practically NO room for soda pop or candy.
>
> BTW a Big Mac with onions, lettuce, tomatoes, cheese (no
> fries), (no pop of ANY kind) is one of the healthier dinners
> around. It's all relative.

What about the bun? What's that good for?

Vernon

Thu, Sep-28-06, 06:15

"TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159380272.810434.167700@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Vernon wrote:
>> <NoOption5L@aol.com> wrote in message news:1159314736.5760-
>> 83.284010@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> > TC wrote:
>> >> TC wrote:
>> >
>> >> What is killing us and making us obese is the
>> >> grain-based diet. It isn't that we are eating too much,
>> >> it is that we are eating too much grain, refined grain
>> >> products, and sugars. Not to mention vegetable oils that
>> >> are new to our diet. Especially the hydrogenated
>> >> vegetable oils. Just like refined white flour and
>> >> refined white sugar, overly processed refined
>> >> hydrogenated vegetable oils are slow poisons.
>> >
>> > That's a fallacy brought to us by the latest in a long
>> > string of fade diets -- "low-carb". While refined carbs
>> > via soda pop, sugary juices, and products made from gummy
>> > white flour are certainly a significant part of the
>> > problem, to make no mention of, or worse completely
>> > exonerate, deep-fried [Long John Silver's] fish, greasy
>> > [Big Mac/Burger King/Wendy's] double-bacon cheeseburgers,
>> > slimey [Kentucky Fried] chicken, and artery-stopping
>> > [Pizza Hut] "Meat Lovers" pizza is a huge disservice to
>> > this NG. And your continuous attempt to link and confuse
>> > refined grain with nutrious whole grain and hydrogenated
>> > oils with healthy unrefined vegetable oils, at best,
>> > could be described as mischievous. So why don't you just
>> > stop the nonsense?
>> >
>> > Patrick
>> >
>>
>> 1. Keep calories from carbohydrates under 40% of the diet
>> no matter whether so called simple or complex.
>> 2. Avoid hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated oils of any
>> kind
>>
>> Meat NEVER hurt any normal person.
>>
>> Protein, oils, and fiber are a requirement. It takes a lot
>> of vegetables and fruits to get sufficient fiber. They also
>> contain carbohydrates. That doesn't leave much room for too
>> much meat and very little room for much grains and
>> practically NO room for soda pop or candy.
>>
>> BTW a Big Mac with onions, lettuce, tomatoes, cheese (no
>> fries), (no pop of ANY kind) is one of the healthier
>> dinners around. It's all relative.
>
> I tend to agree with you, except it seems that you are using
> the terms "simple carbs" and "complex carbs" in the wrong
> context.

They ALL result in sugar and excess calories for the volume.
To a diebetic, they are deadly. "simple" is just more
immediately available sugar. Carbs ARE sugar to the system.
That's the ONLY reason that potion of whatever food is
classified as carbohydrates.

>
> Simple carbs are sugars which have simple singular molecular
> structures. Complex carbs are starches which have complex
> chains of molecules connected together. They are both
> refined high-GI carbs and they both have similar effects to
> the human body, ie. obesity, diabetes, etc.
>
> I think you meant to suggest that carbs be kept to less than
> 40% whether they are refined high-GI carbs or real fresh
> whole-food carbs.

That is EXACTLY what I said. 40%, not matter where from. What
are called complex carbs are usually in foods that ALSO have
other attributes that are good.

>
> I agree with the less than 40% carb consumption overall, but
> refined carbs (sugars and starches) are slow poisons that
> provide no useful nutrition and cause short-term nutrient
> depletion, immediate nutrient displacement, chronic
> inflammation on a molecular level, and long term chronic
> disease. The less the better.
>
> TC

Yes, so called simple carbs are a shock to the system and if a
person is subject to cancer the quick fix quickly feeds the
cancer cells.

Vernon

Thu, Sep-28-06, 06:15

"George Cherry" <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu>
wrote in message
news:abednePesI-xZIfYnZ2dnUVZ_v-dnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "Vernon" <athere@athere> wrote in message
> news:451aae94$0$23887$882e0bbb@news.ThunderNews.com...
>>
>> <NoOption5L@aol.com> wrote in message news:1159314736.5760-
>> 83.284010@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>> TC wrote:
>>>> TC wrote:
>>>
>>>> What is killing us and making us obese is the grain-based
>>>> diet. It isn't that we are eating too much, it is that we
>>>> are eating too much grain, refined grain products, and
>>>> sugars. Not to mention vegetable oils that are new to our
>>>> diet. Especially the hydrogenated vegetable oils. Just
>>>> like refined white flour and refined white sugar, overly
>>>> processed refined hydrogenated vegetable oils are slow
>>>> poisons.
>>>
>>> That's a fallacy brought to us by the latest in a long
>>> string of fade diets -- "low-carb". While refined carbs
>>> via soda pop, sugary juices, and products made from gummy
>>> white flour are certainly a significant part of the
>>> problem, to make no mention of, or worse completely
>>> exonerate, deep-fried [Long John Silver's] fish, greasy
>>> [Big Mac/Burger King/Wendy's] double-bacon cheeseburgers,
>>> slimey [Kentucky Fried] chicken, and artery-stopping
>>> [Pizza Hut] "Meat Lovers" pizza is a huge disservice to
>>> this NG. And your continuous attempt to link and confuse
>>> refined grain with nutrious whole grain and hydrogenated
>>> oils with healthy unrefined vegetable oils, at best, could
>>> be described as mischievous. So why don't you just stop
>>> the nonsense?
>>>
>>> Patrick
>>>
>>
>> 1. Keep calories from carbohydrates under 40% of the diet
>> no matter whether so called simple or complex.
>> 2. Avoid hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated oils of any
>> kind
>>
>> Meat NEVER hurt any normal person.
>>
>> Protein, oils, and fiber are a requirement. It takes a lot
>> of vegetables and fruits to get sufficient fiber. They also
>> contain carbohydrates. That doesn't leave much room for too
>> much meat and very little room for much grains and
>> practically NO room for soda pop or candy.
>>
>> BTW a Big Mac with onions, lettuce, tomatoes, cheese (no
>> fries), (no pop of ANY kind) is one of the healthier
>> dinners around. It's all relative.
>
> What about the bun? What's that good for?

Self satisfaction. Like an occasional hot fudge sundae or
snickers bar. I didn't suggest that any one have one
regularly. I have gone into a Whataburger and ordered their
best and no bun. It came to me on a plate with as much
lettuce, tomato, onions, jalapeños and pickles as the volume
usually contained by a bun, plus what was normally there.

George Che

Thu, Sep-28-06, 06:15

"TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159403912.297909.220470@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> George Cherry wrote:
>> "Vernon" <athere@athere> wrote in message
>> news:451aae94$0$23887$882e0bbb@news.ThunderNews.com...
>> >
>> > <NoOption5L@aol.com> wrote in message news:1159314736.57-
>> > 6083.284010@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >> TC wrote:
>> >>> TC wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> What is killing us and making us obese is the
>> >>> grain-based diet. It isn't that we are eating too much,
>> >>> it is that we are eating too much grain, refined grain
>> >>> products, and sugars. Not to mention vegetable oils
>> >>> that are new to our diet. Especially the hydrogenated
>> >>> vegetable oils. Just like refined white flour and
>> >>> refined white sugar, overly processed refined
>> >>> hydrogenated vegetable oils are slow poisons.
>> >>
>> >> That's a fallacy brought to us by the latest in a long
>> >> string of fade diets -- "low-carb". While refined carbs
>> >> via soda pop, sugary juices, and products made from
>> >> gummy white flour are certainly a significant part of
>> >> the problem, to make no mention of, or worse completely
>> >> exonerate, deep-fried [Long John Silver's] fish, greasy
>> >> [Big Mac/Burger King/Wendy's] double-bacon
>> >> cheeseburgers, slimey [Kentucky Fried] chicken, and
>> >> artery-stopping [Pizza Hut] "Meat Lovers" pizza is a
>> >> huge disservice to this NG. And your continuous attempt
>> >> to link and confuse refined grain with nutrious whole
>> >> grain and hydrogenated oils with healthy unrefined
>> >> vegetable oils, at best, could be described as
>> >> mischievous. So why don't you just stop the nonsense?
>> >>
>> >> Patrick
>> >>
>> >
>> > 1. Keep calories from carbohydrates under 40% of the diet
>> > no matter whether so called simple or complex.
>> > 2. Avoid hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated oils of
>> > any kind
>> >
>> > Meat NEVER hurt any normal person.
>> >
>> > Protein, oils, and fiber are a requirement. It takes a
>> > lot of vegetables and fruits to get sufficient fiber.
>> > They also contain carbohydrates. That doesn't leave much
>> > room for too much meat and very little room for much
>> > grains and practically NO room for soda pop or candy.
>> >
>> > BTW a Big Mac with onions, lettuce, tomatoes, cheese (no
>> > fries), (no pop of ANY kind) is one of the healthier
>> > dinners around. It's all relative.
>>
>> What about the bun? What's that good for?
>
> Not much except keeping the condiments off your fingers.

LOL! Good one, TC. A healthy alternative would be to use a
knife and fork to keep the condiments off your fingers and
compost the bun.

GWC

Vernon

Thu, Sep-28-06, 06:15

"George Cherry" <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu>
wrote in message
news:qvadneKfc7-cg4bYnZ2dnUVZ_oSdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:11594039-
> 12.297909.220470@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> George Cherry wrote:
>>> "Vernon" <athere@athere> wrote in message
>>> news:451aae94$0$23887$882e0bbb@news.ThunderNews.com...
>>> >
>>> > <NoOption5L@aol.com> wrote in message news:1159314736.5-
>>> > 76083.284010@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>> >> TC wrote:
>>> >>> TC wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> What is killing us and making us obese is the
>>> >>> grain-based diet. It isn't that we are eating too
>>> >>> much, it is that we are eating too much grain, refined
>>> >>> grain products, and sugars. Not to mention vegetable
>>> >>> oils that are new to our diet. Especially the
>>> >>> hydrogenated vegetable oils. Just like refined white
>>> >>> flour and refined white sugar, overly processed
>>> >>> refined hydrogenated vegetable oils are slow poisons.
>>> >>
>>> >> That's a fallacy brought to us by the latest in a long
>>> >> string of fade diets -- "low-carb". While refined carbs
>>> >> via soda pop, sugary juices, and products made from
>>> >> gummy white flour are certainly a significant part of
>>> >> the problem, to make no mention of, or worse completely
>>> >> exonerate, deep-fried [Long John Silver's] fish, greasy
>>> >> [Big Mac/Burger King/Wendy's] double-bacon
>>> >> cheeseburgers, slimey [Kentucky Fried] chicken, and
>>> >> artery-stopping [Pizza Hut] "Meat Lovers" pizza is a
>>> >> huge disservice to this NG. And your continuous attempt
>>> >> to link and confuse refined grain with nutrious whole
>>> >> grain and hydrogenated oils with healthy unrefined
>>> >> vegetable oils, at best, could be described as
>>> >> mischievous. So why don't you just stop the nonsense?
>>> >>
>>> >> Patrick
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > 1. Keep calories from carbohydrates under 40% of the
>>> > diet no matter whether so called simple or complex.
>>> > 2. Avoid hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated oils of
>>> > any kind
>>> >
>>> > Meat NEVER hurt any normal person.
>>> >
>>> > Protein, oils, and fiber are a requirement. It takes a
>>> > lot of vegetables and fruits to get sufficient fiber.
>>> > They also contain carbohydrates. That doesn't leave much
>>> > room for too much meat and very little room for much
>>> > grains and practically NO room for soda pop or candy.
>>> >
>>> > BTW a Big Mac with onions, lettuce, tomatoes, cheese (no
>>> > fries), (no pop of ANY kind) is one of the healthier
>>> > dinners around. It's all relative.
>>>
>>> What about the bun? What's that good for?
>>
>> Not much except keeping the condiments off your fingers.
>
> LOL! Good one, TC. A healthy alternative would be to use a
> knife and fork to keep the condiments off your fingers and
> compost the bun.
>

I have never found any outlet that will not accept an order
for no bun. What fun is a hamburger without licking your
fingers. Good Greif.

Mr. Natura

Thu, Sep-28-06, 17:15

ironjustice@aol.com wrote:
> Soy protein diet improves endothelial dysfunction in renal
> transplant patients.

This is just one of ironjustice's totally stupid and totally
unnecessary posts that has no merit whatsoever, as usual.

And, I sure as hell am NOT going to waste my time trying to
read through the replies to see who said what to whom.

Roman Byst

Thu, Sep-28-06, 17:15

FYI

Roman Bystrianyk, "Vegetable protein lowers high blood
pressure", Health Sentinel, May 1, 2006,

According to the National Institutes of Health, approximately
65 million American adults - nearly 1 in 3 - have high blood
pressure. High blood pressure, also known as hypertension, is
a dangerous condition that is known as the "silent killer".
High blood pressure increases the risk for heart disease and
stroke, which are the first and third leading causes of death
in the United States. High blood pressure can also result in
other problems, such as heart failure, kidney disease, and
blindness.

Epidemiological studies have shown that vegetarians have less
high blood pressure compared with meat eaters. The Dietary
Approaches to Stop Hypertension, also know as DASH, recommends
a combination diet that emphasizes fruits, vegetables, whole
grains, poultry, fish, nuts, low or fat free dairy products
and reduces the consumption of red meats, fats, and sweets.

A recent study in Archives of Internal Medicine, examined over
4,500 persons age 40 to 59 years to examine the effects of
vegetable and animal protein on high blood pressure.

The study's main finding "was an inverse relationship between
individuals' vegetable protein intake and their blood
pressure." The study also found that there was a significant
association between higher animal protein intake and both
systolic and diastolic blood pressure. However, after
adjusting for height and weight blood pressure association was
smaller and nonsignificant.

To explain this difference the authors note that there were
significant differences in the amino acids. Amino acids are
the building blocks of proteins. These differences possibly
contribute to the differences between vegetable and animal
proteins. Also, other components found along with vegetable
proteins, such as magnesium, may interact with the amino acids
to lower blood pressure.

The authors conclude, "our results are consistent with current
recommendations that a diet high in vegetable products be part
of a healthy lifestyle for prevention of high blood pressure
and related chronic diseases."

SOURCE: Archives of Internal Medicine, January 2006

ironjustice@aol.com wrote:
> Soy protein diet improves endothelial dysfunction in renal
> transplant patients. Cupisti A, Ghiadoni L, D'Alessandro C,
> Kardasz I, Morelli E, Panichi V, Locati D, Morandi S, Saba
> A, Barsotti G, Taddei S, Arnoldi A, Salvetti A Nephrol Dial
> Transplant. 2006 Sep 23;
>
> BACKGROUND: Since it has been demonstrated that soy diet can
> improve endothelial function, in the present study we
> evaluated the effect of dietary substitution of 25 g of
> animal proteins with soy proteins on endothelial dysfunction
> in renal transplant patients. METHODS: In 20 renal
> transplant patients (55 +/- 11 years, serum creatinine 1.7
> +/- .6 mg/dl), brachial artery flow mediated dilation (FMD)
> and endothelium-independent vasodilation (sublingual
> nitroglycerine, 25 microg) were measured at baseline, after
> 5 weeks of a soy diet and finally after 5 weeks of soy
> wash-out. Changes in plasma lipids, markers of oxidative
> stress (lipid peroxides, LOOH) and inflammation (C-reactive
> protein), isoflavones (genistein and daidzein), asymmetric
> dimethyl arginine (ADMA) and l-arginine were also evaluated.
> RESULTS: At baseline, patients showed a significantly lower
> FMD as compared with age-matched healthy subjects (3.2 +/-
> 1.8 vs 6.3 +/- 1.9, respectively; P < 0.001), while response
> to nitroglycerine was similar. After soy diet, actual
> protein intake was not changed, cholesterol and lipid
> peroxides were significantly reduced, and isoflavones were
> detectable in plasma. Soy diet was associated with a
> significant improvement in FMD (4.4 +/- 2.0; P = 0.003 vs
> baseline), while response to nitroglycerine was unchanged.
> Improvement in FMD was related to l-arginine/ADMA ratio
> changes, but no significant relation was found to changes in
> cholesterol, lipid peroxides or genistein and daidzein
> plasma concentrations. After 5 weeks of soy diet
> discontinuation, FMD
> (3.3 +/- 1.7%) returned to baseline values and isoflavones
> were no longer detectable in plasma. CONCLUSIONS: A soy
> protein diet for 5 weeks improves endothelial function in
> renal transplant patients. This effect seems to be
> strictly dependent on soy intake as it disappears after
> soy withdrawal and is mediated by an increase in the
> l-arginine/ADMA ratio, independently of change in lipid
> profile, oxidative stress or isoflavones.
>
>
> Who loves ya. Tom
>
>
> Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
>
>
> Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3
>
>
> DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

Thu, Sep-28-06, 17:15

NoOption5L@aol.com wrote:
> TC wrote:
>
> > > > What is killing us and making us obese is the
> > > > grain-based diet. It isn't that we are eating too
> > > > much, it is that we are eating too much grain, refined
> > > > grain products, and sugars. Not to mention vegetable
> > > > oils that are new to our diet. Especially the
> > > > hydrogenated vegetable oils. Just like refined white
> > > > flour and refined white sugar, overly processed
> > > > refined hydrogenated vegetable oils are slow poisons.
>
> > > That's a fallacy brought to us by the latest in a long
> > > string of fade diets -- "low-carb". While refined carbs
> > > via soda pop, sugary juices, and products made from
> > > gummy white flour are certainly a significant part of
> > > the problem,
>
> > One the one hand it is a "fallacy" and on the other hand
> > it is a "significant part of the problem" ????? Which one
> > is it? Is it a "fallacy" or is it a "significant part of
> > the problem"? Make up your mind.
>
> Low-carb fallacy = we're eating too much grain.
>
> Fact = we're eating too much *refined* grain.
>
> > > to make no mention of, or worse completely exonerate,
> > > deep-fried [Long John Silver's] fish,
>
> > with a large order of chips and a large soda
>
> Instead exchange for: Broiled salmon + baked sweet potato +
> green tea
>
> > > greasy [Big Mac/Burger
>
> > with a super sized fry and a 3/4 gallon jug of sugar water
>
> Replace with: Lean roast beef + whole wheat bread + romaine
> lettuce + tomatos + water with a slice of lemon
>
> > > King/Wendy's] double-bacon cheeseburgers,
>
> > and a fries and drink
>
> Replace with: Ostrich burger + spinach salad + glass of milk
>
> > > slimey [Kentucky Fried] chicken,
>
> > and a fries and drink
>
> Replace with: Baked chicken breast + brown rice + glass of
> fresh squeezed orange juice
>
> > > and artery-stopping [Pizza Hut] "Meat Lovers" pizza is a
> > > huge disservice to this NG.
>
> > on a one-inch thick white flour crust and with a
> > large soda
>
> Replace with homemade whole-wheat crust/sesame seeds +
> tomato sauce + green/red/yellow peppers, onions, mushrooms,
> pineapple + tall glass of water
>
> So we're in agreement then? The whole fast food meal is crap
> -- crappy meat and crappy carbs, and too much of both,
> rrrrighttttt....?
>
> > > And your continuous attempt to link and confuse refined
> > > grain with nutrious whole grain and hydrogenated oils
> > > with healthy unrefined vegetable oils, at best, could be
> > > described as mischievous. So why don't you just stop the
> > > nonsense?
>
> > "nutritious" whole grain is only refined white grain flour
> > with the left overs mixed back in. It is still over
> > processed stale grain with all kinds of added chemicals to
> > preserve it and stop it from clumping. You've been had by
> > the grain industry.
>
> Dr. Adkins/Zone Diet has made/sold the grain conspiracy
> well. Did you get to the part in their books where they
> tell you that grains are actually foreign to the earth
> and were brought here by the aliens that crashed in
> Roswell?
>
> > And there is nothing magical in grains that cannot be
> > gotten in greater amounts and in better forms from real
> > fresh whole produce. Grains are entirely superfluous to
> > the human diet.
>
> You don't need to eat grains to survive... now that's a real
> startling revelation. But did you know that could be said of
> any food -- meat, eggs, milk, cheese, citrus fruits, beans,
> nuts, seeds, green beans or pumpkin pie?

I did not say that you don't need grains to *survive*. What I
essentially said and meant was that you can and will *thrive*
without grains. I am saying that you must remove grains or at
least greatly limit them from your diet in order to thrive.
They are a nutritionally modest food. Grains are not all that
nutritous no matter how whole grain they are. There is nothing
magical about grains that we need that we can't get in larger
amounts and in better forms from other foods. They are a
second rate food.

And yes, you can survive, for a while at least, without
animal-sourced foods, but you have zero chance of thriving on
a diet bereft of animal-sourced foods.

Get it? Surviving is NOT the same as THRIVING.

>
> So why do you continue to crack on _whole_ grains? They're
> packed with nutrients and fiber.

That is it in a nutshell. You think they are "packed" with
nutrients, which they are not. They lack some very important
nutrients that we need to get from other foods. Like vitamin
C, like some proteins, fats and collagen. Then there are the
fat soluble vitamins, A, D, E and K. Grains are poor in these
important vitamins, or poor in the form of these vitamins that
they contain. Beta-carotene from grains are useless to us
because we cannot use them in that form.

And fiber is completely empty food. By definition we cannot
get nutrients from fiber. And the whole concept of us eating
fiber and roughage in order to maintain regular bowel
movements is nonsense. Inuits and Eskimos were extremely
healthy and for much of the year they ate little or no fiber
in their diets. The funny thing is that these grains that
are supposed to give us this great life-saving fiber is the
main culprit in many chronic lower GI diseases, like
Chrohn's, IBS and such. Fiber only exarcerbates these
problems in most cases.

> Plus, unlike the white bread buns and crusts served in the
> fast food places and most everywhere else, whole grain
> breads fill you up and keep you filled up. Don't believe me?
> Try eating a bowl of hot oatmeal in the morning.

Are you aware that grains need to be soaked and/or fermented
for us to maximize its usefulness as a food? And are you aware
that no bread or flour manufacturer actually soaks or ferments
the grains used in bread making? They are just ground up raw.

And are you aware that most, if not all, commercial whole
grain flour is basically white flour that has been processed
as usual, then they take some of the left over roughage (that
would usually be used as animal feed), and they add it back to
the flour, and as long as more than (i think) 40% of the flour
is made up of this roughage, it can be labelled as whole
grain? Refine and processed re-constituted "whole grain" flour
is still overly processed crap and offer very little advantage
overly refined and processed white flour.

>
> > Name me one vegetable oil that is not refined. Except for
> > extra virgin olive oil. Name me one that isn't heated,
> > treated, filtered and processed to death. Do you know what
> > they do to corn oil, canola oil, soy oil and other
> > vegetable oils before it is poured in a bottle and shipped
> > to your grocer? You would be surprised how heavily
> > processed it actually is. It is rendered as dead a food as
> > refined white flour and ultra high temp pasteurized milk.
> > These foods are processed to death and it does not matter
> > how fancy, glossy and green the label is, it is still a
> > dead food.
>
> Have you seen the processing that takes place in our meat
> industry and packing plants? If you have, why don't you EVER
> mention it?

I get my meat from the local butcher who gets it from a
local farmer who feeds them the best feeds he can. Other
than a knife and a band saw, there is no more "processing"
involved other than hanging the carcass in a cold room for a
week or three.

>
> > There is nothing mischievous about the crap that is
> > foisted upon us as supposedly healthy foods.
>
> I agree. My beef <no pun intended> is that you EXCLUSIVELY
> rail against grains/carbs, but NEVER say a negative word
> about the dog food served in fast food restaurants and
> elsewhere that the meat industry calls fit for human
> consumption.
>
> So I for one would like to know why you're so damned biased.
>
> Patrick

I don't go on against the meat processing because I do not buy
processed meat. Especially the new concoctions with a
ingredients label 5 inches long filled with binder, colorants,
preservatives and added soy protein isolates. These are
perversions of what real food is supposed to be. I buy real
meat like I buy real produce.

If you look at all the fake manufactured foods in the centre
aisles of the grocery stores, verye very few of them are not
carbohydrates and very very few of them are not perversities
of grains. Whether labelled "whole grains" or not, the vast
majority of the frankenfoods being sold in boxes with fancy
graphics aimed at kids are grain foods and are extremely
processed and full of colorants, preservatives and
high-pressure high-temperature extruded grain starches. And
the mainstream has done all it can to keep this crap food
under the radar.

To this day, medical "experts" tell you to cut the "bad"
animal fats and eat the "good" grains, and that is complete
bullshit. In the last 30 years when obesity and chronic
disease has quadrupled, grain and carb consumption went up by
about 12% while animal fat consumption has gone down about
10%, and this happened in perfect co-ordination with the
increase in obesity and chronic disease.

If you want ot be fat and sick, keep it up. Eat your grains. I
upped my animal-source fat and protein consumption and cut my
grain consumption and lost my 25 excess pounds easily. My
family and I went from dozens of prescriptions per year to
none, zero, zip, nada. No more IBS, no more hunger from trying
to eat less, no more throat infections, colds, flus, etc. I
haven't had a sick day in years. And I eat virtually no
grains. My BMs are perfectly regular and normal. I need no
stinking fiber.

I've seen the difference first hand regarding eating copious
amounts of supposedly unhealthy animal-sourced foods vs.
eating supposed healthy grains. And what I've seen is not what
you and the medical "experts" are keep insisting on.

Grains are the bane of human existence. They are completely
un-necessary and, in fact, are contrary to what we need to
be healthy.

TC

Mr. Natura

Thu, Sep-28-06, 17:15

Roman Bystrianyk wrote:
> FYI

FYI, the IronKook NEVER makes any comments or conclusions on
his Dumb Arse Posts.

That is the primary reason why they are so Moronic. :(

Just thought that you might want to know that the IronKook
made no such comments on his post.

Roman Byst

Thu, Sep-28-06, 17:15

Vernon wrote:
> "Roman Bystrianyk" <rbystrianyk@gmail.com> wrote in
> message news:1159447850.241714.190250@h48g2000cwc.googleg-
> roups.com...
> > FYI
> >
> > Roman Bystrianyk, "Vegetable protein lowers high blood
> > pressure", Health Sentinel, May 1, 2006,
>
> Totally wrong. A lie. Increased intake of vegetables is the
> result of the study.
>
Karen Pallarito, "Veggie Diet May Lower High Blood Pressure",
ABC News, January 21, 2005, Link: http://www.forbes.com/lifes-
tyle/health/feeds/hscout/2005/01/21/hscout523461.html

Vegetarians tend to have lower blood pressure than the general
population, but it hasn't been clear whether their diet or
their lifestyle guards them against hypertension.

Now, a new review of previously published studies claims that
diet provides the protection.

"It's the diet itself, and it is clearly the diet of choice
for people who want to get their blood pressure under
control," said Dr. Neal D. Barnard, president and founder of
the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine and
co-author of the report, which appears in the January issue of
Nutrition Reviews.

Barnard, a nutritionist and author of the book Breaking the
Food Seduction: The Hidden Reasons Behind Food Cravings and
Seven Steps to End Them Naturally, concluded that a person who
suffers from hypertension and has yet to switch to a
vegetarian diet is "really trying to fight their condition
with one arm tied behind their back."

About 65 million American adults have high blood pressure,
according to the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute.
Hypertension is often called the "silent killer" because it
usually has no symptoms but leads to increased risk for heart
disease, congestive heart failure, stroke and kidney failure.

Barnard and committee nutritionist Susan Berkow analyzed 80
scientific studies, including observational studies of
individuals on vegetarian diets compared with
non-vegetarians and randomized, controlled trials in which
outcomes of people who switch to a plant-based diet were
compared with control subjects.

"The purpose of our review was to bring together what is known
about the effect of the diet, but also what we know about the
mechanism and try to explain why this occurs," Barnard
explained.

Some of the best observational data, according to the
report, come from studies involving Seventh-Day Adventists,
who advocate an alcohol-free, tobacco-free, vegetarian
lifestyle. About 50 percent of Adventists follow a
lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet, which includes dairy products and
eggs, the authors noted.

One study involving California Adventists found that
vegetarians have about half the prevalence of hypertension
compared to non-vegetarian Adventists. When hypertensives were
defined as those taking medication intended to reduce their
blood pressure, a nearly threefold difference in the
prevalence of hypertension was seen between the groups.

Overall, the randomized controlled trials included in the
review found that blood pressure is lowered when animal
products were replaced with vegetable products in both people
with normal blood pressure and those who are hypertensive.

To understand the blood-pressure-lowering effects of a
plant-based diet, the authors examined changes in body weight
and intake of specific food groups and nutrients.

Studies show that vegetarians tend to be slimmer, on average,
which may help explain their lower incidence of hypertension.
A vegetarian diet also is significantly lower in saturated
fat, reducing the viscosity, or thickness, of the blood.

Blood becomes "less like oil, more like water," Barnard
explained.

And because vegetarian diets are generally high in fruits and
vegetables, people who follow this diet consume more
potassium than those who eat a diet of meat and vegetables.
The analysis cites two reviews involving a total of 52
randomized clinical trials showing potassium supplementation
significantly lowered blood pressure in people with normal
and elevated blood pressure.

There are those who disagree with the finding, however.

Dr. Lawrence J. Appel, a nutrition specialist at the Johns
Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, said the paper
fails to establish a clear cause-and-effect relationship
between consuming a plant-based diet and lowering one's
blood pressure.

"It's a good review, but there are still unanswered
questions," he said.

He also noted that very few clinical trials have been
conducted, and that those that have been done are small and
not tightly controlled. Much of the data is observational.

So, he said, it remains unclear whether a vegetarian diet
alone is responsible for lowering blood pressure or
whether some aspect of a vegetarian regimen -- such as
eating lots of fruits and vegetables rich in potassiumand
fiber while maintaining a desirable body weight -- could
have the same effect.

And then there there is the fact that not everyone who has
high blood pressure eats poorly or is overweight; genetic
factors significantly influence a person's risk for
hypertension.

Still, Barnard insists a vegetarian diet is healthy for
everyone, whether or not they have high blood pressure.

He offers this caveat for people taking blood pressure
medication: "Don't throw your medication in the trash."
High blood pressure is a serious medical condition
requiring immediate medical attention. Even if you switch
to a vegetarian diet to trim down, you won't lose the
weight overnight, he said. It could take more than a year
for a person who is 60 pounds overweight to drop that
excess baggage.

Barnard hopes the review will prompt more doctors to recommend
a vegetarian diet. Many are reluctant to do because they fear
that patients won't stick with it, but there's no reason to
believe patients would be less likely to go vegetarian than to
comply with other diets, he said.

"They may not hit the mark 100 percent, but they'd do much
better if a doctor recommended it," he said.

Barnard's group, the physicians committee, is a Washington,
D.C.-based nonprofit that promotes good nutrition, opposes
unethical human experimentation and advocates alternatives to
animal research.

Vernon

Thu, Sep-28-06, 17:15

"Roman Bystrianyk" <rbystrianyk@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159447850.241714.190250@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> FYI
>
> Roman Bystrianyk, "Vegetable protein lowers high blood
> pressure", Health Sentinel, May 1, 2006,

Totally wrong. A lie. Increased intake of vegetables is the
result of the study.

>
> According to the National Institutes of Health,
> approximately 65 million American adults - nearly 1 in 3 -
> have high blood pressure. High blood pressure, also known as
> hypertension, is a dangerous condition that is known as the
> "silent killer". High blood pressure increases the risk for
> heart disease and stroke, which are the first and third
> leading causes of death in the United States. High blood
> pressure can also result in other problems, such as heart
> failure, kidney disease, and blindness.
>
> Epidemiological studies have shown that vegetarians have
> less high blood pressure compared with meat eaters. The
> Dietary Approaches to Stop Hypertension, also know as DASH,
> recommends a combination diet that emphasizes fruits,
> vegetables, whole grains, poultry, fish, nuts, low or fat
> free dairy products and reduces the consumption of red
> meats, fats, and sweets.
>
> A recent study in Archives of Internal Medicine, examined
> over 4,500 persons age 40 to 59 years to examine the effects
> of vegetable and animal protein on high blood pressure.
>
> The study's main finding "was an inverse relationship
> between individuals' vegetable protein intake and their
> blood pressure." The study also found that there was a
> significant association between higher animal protein intake
> and both systolic and diastolic blood pressure. However,
> after adjusting for height and weight blood pressure
> association was smaller and nonsignificant.
>
> To explain this difference the authors note that there were
> significant differences in the amino acids. Amino acids are
> the building blocks of proteins. These differences possibly
> contribute to the differences between vegetable and animal
> proteins. Also, other components found along with vegetable
> proteins, such as magnesium, may interact with the amino
> acids to lower blood pressure.
>
> The authors conclude, "our results are consistent with
> current recommendations that a diet high in vegetable
> products be part of a healthy lifestyle for prevention of
> high blood pressure and related chronic diseases."

They had / have a dumb agenda. Increased B complex and reduced
sugar intake are the basic results of the test.

>
> SOURCE: Archives of Internal Medicine, January 2006
>
> ironjustice@aol.com wrote:
ironjustice, mentally disturbed liar. Must be from a lack of
essential amino and fatty acids.

Vernon

Thu, Sep-28-06, 17:15

<NoOption5L@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1159417679.656129.69630@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> TC wrote:
>
>> > > What is killing us and making us obese is the
>> > > grain-based diet. It isn't that we are eating too much,
>> > > it is that we are eating too much grain, refined grain
>> > > products, and sugars. Not to mention vegetable oils
>> > > that are new to our diet. Especially the hydrogenated
>> > > vegetable oils. Just like refined white flour and
>> > > refined white sugar, overly processed refined
>> > > hydrogenated vegetable oils are slow poisons.
>
>> > That's a fallacy brought to us by the latest in a long
>> > string of fade diets -- "low-carb". While refined carbs
>> > via soda pop, sugary juices, and products made from gummy
>> > white flour are certainly a significant part of the
>> > problem,
>
>> One the one hand it is a "fallacy" and on the other hand it
>> is a "significant part of the problem" ????? Which one is
>> it? Is it a "fallacy" or is it a "significant part of the
>> problem"? Make up your mind.
>
> Low-carb fallacy = we're eating too much grain.
>
> Fact = we're eating too much *refined* grain.

FACT = too much grain and most of it is refined, making
matters worse.

>
>> > to make no mention of, or worse completely exonerate,
>> > deep-fried [Long John Silver's] fish,
>
>> with a large order of chips and a large soda
>
> Instead exchange for: Broiled salmon + baked sweet potato +
> green tea

Baked sweet potato or yams are some of my favorites but
carrots, bell peppers, onions are really good and a lot
better choice.

>
>> > greasy [Big Mac/Burger
>
>> with a super sized fry and a 3/4 gallon jug of sugar water
>
> Replace with: Lean roast beef + whole wheat bread + romaine
> lettuce + tomatos + water with a slice of lemon

Of course you could get real. People have a life and work for
a living and one of the worst things one can do is bring
their lunch. Going out (anyplace) is the most healthy thing
one can do.

>
>> > King/Wendy's] double-bacon cheeseburgers,
>
>> and a fries and drink
>
> Replace with: Ostrich burger + spinach salad + glass of milk
>
>> > slimey [Kentucky Fried] chicken,
>
>> and a fries and drink
>
> Replace with: Baked chicken breast + brown rice + glass of
> fresh squeezed orange juice

Brown rice? why? How about wild rice or cooked raw rice?

>
>> > and artery-stopping [Pizza Hut] "Meat Lovers" pizza is a
>> > huge disservice to this NG.
>
>> on a one-inch thick white flour crust and with a large soda
>
> Replace with homemade whole-wheat crust/sesame seeds +
> tomato sauce + green/red/yellow peppers, onions, mushrooms,
> pineapple + tall glass of water

Of course you could get real. People have a life and work for
a living and one of the worst things one can do is bring
their lunch. Going out (anyplace) is the most healthy thing
one can do.

>
> So we're in agreement then? The whole fast food meal is crap
> -- crappy meat and crappy carbs, and too much of both,
> rrrrighttttt....?

Fast food is for people with a life and that have to
earn a living.

Next time you make suggestions, pretend you work for a living
on a typical job Truck driver, construction worker, landscape
helper, busy office, engineer, retail store clerk.

About the only person who could follow your suggestions would
be a stay at home mom, a worker, but access to a stove and
refrigerator. The alternative is someone who is "kept" by
someone else.

>
>> > And your continuous attempt to link and confuse refined
>> > grain with nutrious whole grain and hydrogenated oils
>> > with healthy unrefined vegetable oils, at best, could be
>> > described as mischievous. So why don't you just stop the
>> > nonsense?
>
>> "nutritious" whole grain is only refined white grain flour
>> with the left overs mixed back in. It is still over
>> processed stale grain with all kinds of added chemicals to
>> preserve it and stop it from clumping. You've been had by
>> the grain industry.
>
> Dr. Adkins/Zone Diet has made/sold the grain conspiracy
> well. Did you get to the part in their books where they
> tell you that grains are actually foreign to the earth
> and were brought here by the aliens that crashed in
> Roswell?
>
>> And there is nothing magical in grains that cannot be
>> gotten in greater amounts and in better forms from real
>> fresh whole produce. Grains are entirely superfluous to the
>> human diet.
>
> You don't need to eat grains to survive... now that's a real
> startling revelation. But did you know that could be said of
> any food -- meat, eggs, milk, cheese, citrus fruits, beans,
> nuts, seeds, green beans or pumpkin pie?
>
> So why do you continue to crack on _whole_ grains? They're
> packed with nutrients and fiber. Plus, unlike the white
> bread buns and crusts served in the fast food places and
> most everywhere else, whole grain breads fill you up and
> keep you filled up. Don't believe me? Try eating a bowl of
> hot oatmeal in the morning.
>
>> Name me one vegetable oil that is not refined. Except for
>> extra virgin olive oil. Name me one that isn't heated,
>> treated, filtered and processed to death. Do you know what
>> they do to corn oil, canola oil, soy oil and other
>> vegetable oils before it is poured in a bottle and shipped
>> to your grocer? You would be surprised how heavily
>> processed it actually is. It is rendered as dead a food as
>> refined white flour and ultra high temp pasteurized milk.
>> These foods are processed to death and it does not matter
>> how fancy, glossy and green the label is, it is still a
>> dead food.
>
> Have you seen the processing that takes place in our meat
> industry and packing plants? If you have, why don't you EVER
> mention it?
>
>> There is nothing mischievous about the crap that is foisted
>> upon us as supposedly healthy foods.
>
> I agree. My beef <no pun intended> is that you EXCLUSIVELY
> rail against grains/carbs, but NEVER say a negative word
> about the dog food served in fast food restaurants and
> elsewhere that the meat industry calls fit for human
> consumption.
>
> So I for one would like to know why you're so damned biased.
>
> Patrick

Vernon

Thu, Sep-28-06, 17:15

"TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159453905.851727.246220@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> NoOption5L@aol.com wrote:
>> TC wrote:
>>
>
> I've seen the difference first hand regarding eating copious
> amounts of supposedly unhealthy animal-sourced foods vs.
> eating supposed healthy grains. And what I've seen is not
> what you and the medical "experts" are keep insisting on.

The "experts" (people who actually study and research) found
that the entire low fat bit was a total fallacy and that has
been over twenty years ago. They further found that we are not
getting enough fiber (normally obtained from vegetables and
fruits). The also found that we need meat. With regard to
fats, what they did find was that THE most dangerous thing you
can eat next to excess sugar is hydrogenated or partially
hydrogenated oils. (Nothing is worse that margarine) They
found that you cannot raise serum cholesterol by eating it.
This is not to say that the two to three hour system reaction
of eating high cholesterol (or sugar) is not a good thing for
people with circulation problems due to restrictions..

>
> Grains are the bane of human existence. They are completely
> un-necessary and, in fact, are contrary to what we need to
> be healthy.
>
> TC

Ironjustic

Fri, Sep-29-06, 06:15

Matti Narkia wrote:
> On 26 Sep 2006 07:04:41 -0700, "ironjustice@aol.com"
> <ironjustice@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >Soy protein diet improves endothelial dysfunction in renal
> >transplant patients. Cupisti A, Ghiadoni L, D'Alessandro C,
> >Kardasz I, Morelli E, Panichi V, Locati D, Morandi S, Saba
> >A, Barsotti G, Taddei S, Arnoldi A, Salvetti A Nephrol Dial
> >Transplant. 2006 Sep 23;
> >
> And animal studies suggest that _fish_ protein may prevent
> insulin resistance and thus type 2 diabetes. And a Swedish
> study with humans suggests that fish protein may protect
> type 1 diabetes patients from microalbuminuria und thus
> perhaps from kidney damage.
>
> Here some evidence: The study
>
> Lavigne C, Tremblay F, Asselin G, Jacques H, Marette A.
> Prevention of skeletal muscle insulin resistance by dietary
> cod protein in high fat-fed rats. Am J Physiol Endocrinol
> Metab. 2001 Jul;281(1):E62-71. PMID: 11404223 [PubMed -
> indexed for MEDLINE]
> <http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/281/1/E62>
>
> suggests that fish protein may prevent high fat diet induced
> insulin resistance and hence type 2 diabetes in rats.
> Selected excerpts:
>
> "In the present study, we tested the hypothesis that
> fish protein may represent a key constituent of fish
> with glucoregulatory activity. Three groups of rats were
> fed a high- fat diet in which the protein source was
> casein, fish (cod) protein, or soy protein; these groups
> were compared with a group of chow-fed controls.
> High-fat feeding led to severe whole body and skeletal
> muscle insulin resistance in casein- or soy protein-fed
> rats, as assessed by the euglycemic clamp technique
> coupled with measurements of 2-deoxy-D-[(3)H]glucose
> uptake rates by individual tissues. However, feeding cod
> protein fully prevented the development of insulin
> resistance in high fat-fed rats. These animals exhibited
> higher rates of insulin-mediated muscle glucose disposal
> that were comparable to those of chow-fed rats. The
> beneficial effects of cod protein occurred without any
> reductions in body weight gain, adipose tissue
> accretion, or expression of tumor necrosis factor-alpha
> in fat and muscle. Moreover, L6 myocytes exposed to cod
> protein-derived amino acids showed greater rates of
> insulin-stimulated glucose uptake compared with cells
> incubated with casein- or soy protein-derived amino
> acids. These data demonstrate that feeding cod protein
> prevents obesity-induced muscle insulin resistance in
> high fat-fed obese rats at least in part through a
> direct action of amino acids on insulin- stimulated
> glucose uptake in skeletal muscle cells.
>
> [...]
>
> In summary, the present study shows that dietary cod
> protein prevents the development of skeletal muscle
> insulin resistance in high fat-fed obese rats. The
> beneficial action of cod protein on insulin sensitivity
> occurred without reductions in body weight or adiposity,
> strongly suggesting that cod protein protects from
> obesity-induced insulin resistance. The effect of
> dietary cod protein appears to involve, at least in
> part, a direct action of cod protein-derived amino acids
> on insulin- stimulated glucose transport in skeletal
> muscle cells. Interest in the present data also arises
> from the fact that increased cod protein consumption is
> easily implementable in humans within guidelines of
> daily recommended allowances of essential nutrients (12,
> 18) and thus could represent a novel nutraceutical
> approach in preventing the development of insulin
> resistance in obesity. Because insulin resistance is a
> central factor in visceral obesity-associated
> complications such as hypertension, diabetes, and
> cardiovascular diseases (2, 6, 8), dietary cod protein
> may contribute to prevent the many metabolic aberrations
> that accompany the obese state."
>
>
> A follow-up study from the same research team:
>
> Tremblay F, Lavigne C, Jacques H, Marette A. Dietary cod
> protein restores insulin-induced activation of
> phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase/Akt and GLUT4 translocation to
> the T-tubules in skeletal muscle of high-fat-fed obese rats.
> Diabetes. 2003 Jan;52(1):29-37. PMID: 12502490 [PubMed -
> indexed for MEDLINE] <http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/-
> cgi/content/full/52/1/29>
>
> "Diet-induced obesity is known to cause peripheral
> insulin resistance in rodents. We have recently found
> that feeding cod protein to high-fat-fed rats prevents
> the development of insulin resistance in skeletal
> muscle. In the present study, we have further explored
> the cellular mechanisms behind this beneficial effect of
> cod protein on skeletal muscle insulin sensitivity. Rats
> were fed a standard chow diet or a high-fat diet in
> which the protein source was either casein, soy, or cod
> proteins for 4 weeks. Whole-body and muscle glucose
> disposal were reduced by approximately 50% in rats fed
> high-fat diets with casein or soy proteins, but these
> impairments were not observed in animals fed cod
> protein. Insulin-induced tyrosine phosphorylation of the
> insulin receptor and insulin receptor substrate (IRS)
> proteins were similar in muscle of chow- and
> high-fat-fed rats regardless of the dietary protein
> source. However, IRS-1-associated phosphatidylinositol
> (PI) 3-kinase activity was severely impaired (-60%) in
> muscle of high-fat-fed rats consuming casein or soy
> protein. In marked contrast, feeding rats with cod
> protein completely prevented the deleterious effect of
> fat feeding on insulin-stimulated PI 3- kinase activity.
> The activation of the downstream kinase Akt/PKB by
> insulin, assessed by in vitro kinase assay and
> phosphorylation of GSK-3beta, were also impaired in
> muscle of high-fat-fed rats consuming casein or soy
> protein, but these defects were also fully prevented by
> dietary cod protein. However, no effect of cod protein
> was observed on atypical protein kinase C activity.
> Normalization of PI 3-kinase/Akt activation by insulin
> in rats fed high-fat diets with cod protein was
> associated with improved translocation of GLUT4 to the
> T-tubules but not to the plasma membrane. Taken
> together, these results show that dietary cod protein is
> a natural insulin-sensitizing agent that appears to
> prevent obesity- linked muscle insulin resistance by
> normalizing insulin activation of the PI 3-kinase/Akt
> pathway and by selectively improving GLUT4 translocation
> to the T-tubules.
>
> [...]
>
> In summary, this study provides convincing evidence that
> dietary proteins are important modulators of insulin
> signaling and action in rat skeletal muscle.
> Furthermore, we showed that dietary cod protein is a
> potent and natural insulin-sensitizing agent that
> normalizes the activation status of the PI 3- kinase/Akt
> pathway coupled to an increased translocation of GLUT4
> to the T-tubules in obese high-fat-fed rats.
> Identification of the precise molecular mechanism by
> which dietary cod protein improves insulin signaling to
> PI 3- kinase/Akt will help defining novel therapeutic
> tools for the prevention and treatment of insulin
> resistance."
>
>
> Another potential benefit from fish protein: A Swedish study
>
> Mollsten AV, Dahlquist GG, Stattin EL, Rudberg S. Higher
> intakes of fish protein are related to a lower risk of
> microalbuminuria in young Swedish type 1 diabetic patients.
> Diabetes Care. 2001 May;24(5):805-10. PMID: 11347734 [PubMed
> - indexed for MEDLINE] <http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cg-
> i/content/full/24/5/805>
>
> found that fish protein may protect from microalbuminuria in
> type 1 diabetes. Brief excerpts:
>
> "... CONCLUSIONS: Total protein and fat intake were not
> associated with the presence of microalbuminuria, but a
> diet including a high amount of fish protein seemed to
> lessen the risk.
>
> [...]
>
> In conclusion, our results do not give evidence for the
> suggestion that a high-protein diet increases the risk
> for incipient diabetic nephropathy. Rather, a diet rich
> in fish protein seems to provide protection from this
> complication."
>
> >Who loves ya. Tom
> >
> >
> >Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
> >
> No, Jesus was a fish eater.
> >
> >Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3
> >
> No, before the invention of agriculture some 10000-15000
> years ago our hunter-gatherer ancestors evolved on and
> adapted to a high protein, low carbohydrate diet, where
> carbohydrates provided 22-40% of calories, and where animal
> meat was an important part of diet.
>
>
> --
> Matti Narkia

CONCLUSIONS: A soy protein diet for 5 weeks improves
endothelial function in renal transplant patients.

The .. subtle .. differences between the studies ?

"und thus perhaps" / "Suggests" .. and .. **improves** ..

Fish .. 'suggests' .. soy .. **improves** ..

WHY .. you would place this comment ON .. this .. particular
thread is .. ?

Seemingly to make someone .. ? .. to believe .. ? that somehow
.. fish .. comes into the .. picture .. ?

When .. speaking to work which is considered quite important
.. kidney destruction .. one might think one might NOT attempt
to .. detract .. FROM ,.. studies which .. show .. CLEARLY ..
improvement .. as opposed to .. "let's hope / suggest /
possibly / perhaps/ etc .. unless .. there was a **reason** ..
FOR the .. comment .. ?

>> No, Jesus was a fish eater.<<

Yep .. I guess you DO have an .. agenda ..

You have some sort of fish .. fetish ..

Who loves ya. Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

NoOption5L

Fri, Sep-29-06, 06:15

Vernon wrote:

> >> > > What is killing us and making us obese is the
> >> > > grain-based diet. It isn't that we are eating too
> >> > > much, it is that we are eating too much grain,
> >> > > refined grain products, and sugars. Not to mention
> >> > > vegetable oils that are new to our diet. Especially
> >> > > the hydrogenated vegetable oils. Just like refined
> >> > > white flour and refined white sugar, overly processed
> >> > > refined hydrogenated vegetable oils are slow poisons.

> >> > That's a fallacy brought to us by the latest in a long
> >> > string of fade diets -- "low-carb". While refined carbs
> >> > via soda pop, sugary juices, and products made from
> >> > gummy white flour are certainly a significant part of
> >> > the problem,

> >> One the one hand it is a "fallacy" and on the other hand
> >> it is a "significant part of the problem" ????? Which one
> >> is it? Is it a "fallacy" or is it a "significant part of
> >> the problem"? Make up your mind.

> > Low-carb fallacy = we're eating too much grain.

> > Fact = we're eating too much *refined* grain.

> FACT = too much grain and most of it is refined, making
> matters worse.

FACT! = "Bad carb" grain products are made exclusively with
refined flour.

> >> > to make no mention of, or worse completely exonerate,
> >> > deep-fried [Long John Silver's] fish,

> >> with a large order of chips and a large soda

> > Instead exchange for: Broiled salmon + baked sweet potato
> > + green tea

> Baked sweet potato or yams are some of my favorites but
> carrots, bell peppers, onions are really good and a lot
> better choice.

Saying the others are "a lot better choice" than a sweet
potato or yam is like saying strawberries are a lot better
choice than blueberries. It depends... it all depends on what
you're measuring for. But I don't measure food this way. I
know they each bring their own special, good-for-you
properties so it's best to constantly eat a variety.

> >> > greasy [Big Mac/Burger

> >> with a super sized fry and a 3/4 gallon jug of sugar
> >> water

> > Replace with: Lean roast beef + whole wheat bread +
> > romaine lettuce + tomatos + water with a slice of lemon

> Of course you could get real. People have a life and work
> for a living and one of the worst things one can do is bring
> their lunch. Going out (anyplace) is the most healthy thing
> one can do.

Hahahahahaha.... funny stuff... this IS a joke, right?

> >> > King/Wendy's] double-bacon cheeseburgers,

> >> and a fries and drink

> > Replace with: Ostrich burger + spinach salad + glass
> > of milk

> >> > slimey [Kentucky Fried] chicken,

> >> and a fries and drink

> > Replace with: Baked chicken breast + brown rice + glass of
> > fresh squeezed orange juice

> Brown rice? why? How about wild rice or cooked raw rice?

Because it's whole grain.

Wild rice is good too.

"Cooked raw rice" ?

> >> > and artery-stopping [Pizza Hut] "Meat Lovers" pizza is
> >> > a huge disservice to this NG.

> >> on a one-inch thick white flour crust and with a
> >> large soda

> > Replace with homemade whole-wheat crust/sesame seeds +
> > tomato sauce + green/red/yellow peppers, onions,
> > mushrooms, pineapple + tall glass of water

> Of course you could get real. People have a life and work
> for a living and one of the worst things one can do is bring
> their lunch. Going out (anyplace) is the most healthy thing
> one can do.

Damn!! You're not kidding.