Atkins? I dont get it. I follow a genetic diet.

[VegieMax]

I dont really understand the preoccupation with dieting. There is really no need to diet.

You just need to ask yourself a simple common sense question.

Who is are closest genetic relative in the mammal family?

What does there intestinal tract look like?

What do they eat?

What does the intestinal tract of a meat eating mammal look like?

What do they eat?

Which most resembles my in physiology and genetic make up?

The closest human relative on the genetic tree is the Chimp.
99.8 percent genetic match

The have a long intestinal tract very much like the human one.

They mostly eat high fiber complex carbs, with a fairly minimal amount of protien. Mostly nuts and seed and ants.

High protien meating eating mammals have short intestinal tracts and a very highly acidic stomach to digest the protien, both things humans lack.

We are most like Chimps so are diet should me more like a chimps and less like a tigers. Milk should also be left out of the diet as we are the only species who continues to go for the teet after we learn to eat real food. Bizzare really when u think about it. If you couldnt buy it in the store you would be down on your knees under a cow.

No big mystery here.

Diets also do not work because thier is a high degree of biodifferentation in the needs of the micro and macro nutrients between people. Unless you have a work up done by someone trained in this, you dont know exatcly what ratio you need, But a super high protien diet just does not make any sense genetically for most people.

I welcome others thoughts on this.

VegieMax

[gwilson38]

Gee Max I guess U dont understand the problem millions of people encounter which is carb addiction and insulin ressistance. Most of us didnt realize we should be following a "chimps" diet?...what we are trying to do is get back to where we began.. how the caveman ate. It wasnt until the introduction of sugar and refined flours that there was such a thing as an obese problem. I am no expert..but I have done my research and based on how I feel this is definitely the way for me to eat. I have fibromyalgia and had been sick for many yrs. Since changing my eating habits I am slim. healthy and dont require meds anymore. Now I do agree with U that diets dont work.....diets tend to imply a quick fix weight loss. What low-carbing is teaching is that IF U eat this way the rest of your life your weight and health will remain in good shape...so to speak.

[VegieMax]

I do understand insulin ressistance and carb addiction. I went through major withdrawls when I eliminated simple sugars from my diet.

The chimp vs. tiger is more than analogy it is a matter of physiology. Our bodies are simply not designed to ingest large quantities of protien. We dont have the cutting teeth for it, not the proper ph in our stomachs, nor the correct intestinal tract.

If you want a healthier way of starting ketotsis in your body then supervised fasting is a better solution in my opinion.

I find also that this whole 3 square meals a day is more of a industrial revolution idea to make sure you could work around your meal times than anything else. Humans were foragers for much of their evolution and hence ate many times a day. I would say 5 or 6 small meals a day, not 2 which is the norm now. This keeps your metabolism up and makes for a very steady insulin curve.

Just my two cents, yes im a vegetarian, no im not perfect. Im glad you have lost whatever weight you wanted to. Now that you have maybe is a good time to take a closer look.

VegieMax

[raina]

I hate to be the one to tell you this Max...but chimps DO eat meat, actually a chimp community can consume up 1 tons of meat annually...hard to believe isn't it? They eat other monkeys!!! If I'm expected to eat what my closest ancestors eat...no thank you, I've read Fit for Life...wasn't for me :)

[gwilson38]

I can respect your opinion but I still think U are missing the point. 1st of all if being a vegetarian works for U then great!... If we werent meant to eat meat then how come the originators of our species ate mostly meat?? I have tried many many different "diets" even did a stint eating no meat. But I have never felt as good as I do now and I know I have never been healthier. How come it is if someone has high blood pressure and high levels of the bad cholestoral that once they start low-carbing their levels go to a more normal state? Im sure low-carbing isnt for absolutely everyone. I also know I speak for the hundreds of people that use this forum that for us it is the only way to live a healthy life.

[VegieMax]

The originators or our species were not the caveman.......If you look at a time line of our species that was a foot long the caveman would occupy about half a centimeter of that timeline.

The majority of our evolution was spent eating what I refered to in the previous post.

I dont argue that a high protien diet and i do mean as in short term diet can have positive short term effects. But the fact of the matter is that a high protien, low complex carb diet is not what are bodies are designed for.

I wont belabor the point, the evidence is without and within.

VegeMax

Only intent was to foster a little thought.

[VegieMax]

Raina - the amount of protein chimps eat is miniscule compared to what the average american eats. I did not say they dont eat meat only that the ration is wildly different than the track we are on, and Atkin recommends.

VegieMax

[merita41]

Please tell me why you would join a low carb BB, when obviously all you want to do is insult, annoy, and badmouth what we are trying to do? Again why take the time out of your day to do this, 160-160-160 PLEASE! (go some where else to make trouble) :q:

[tamarian]

Hi VegieMax,

Welcome to our forum.

If I take the chimps analogy, I'd say yes, going back to eating what chimps eat, will help us de-evolve to mere chimps. :)

Wa'il

[VegieMax]

Sorry I thought a lively discussion was what bulliten boards were for. I dont remember insulting anyone. The Atkins diet is a fairly good way to lose weight, I just question its long term benefits.

All ideologies are strengthened by testing. Its only when ideologies become dogmas that your should start to worry.

I have no agenda except to make you think and question. If after doing so you come to the same conclusion, then Im certainly not gonna argue with you. Its your body you do what you want to it.

I joined the board to spark a little discussion. I am no expert on Atikins, maybe there is something im missing as well. Thats what discussion is for.

VegieMax

[VegieMax]

hu hu hu he he he.....wheres my banana :)

VegieMax

[pamlose130]

VegieMax as a vegetarian, you can still eat major quantities of protein, just not in animal form. Those of us with specific health problems NEED to limit our carb intake, and that is what the research shows. The carbs we do eat should be complex, high fiber. You said you cut out sugars and flour. I don't think we are so far apart here in our way of thinking. I think we need to remember that not every is the same and something works differently for all of us. Let's happy up here, that WILL make us all healthier. :there:

[tamarian]

Originally posted by VegieMax
I dont argue that a high protien diet and i do mean as in short term diet can have positive short term effects.

Hmmm, if you can point to medical study proving this, I'd like to see it. This sounds more like Weight-Watchers and SlimFast results, and most of us here have followed them.


But the fact of the matter is that a high protien, low complex carb diet is not what are bodies are designed for.


Hmm, if so, why do our bodies mange to find all the enzymes that perfectly breaks down all the protein, and when we lack protein, we lose muscles?


I wont belabor the point, the evidence is without and within.

Which evidence? I replied earlier to the chimps "evidence". It's hard to find any specific diet backed up by medical and biochemical research support than low-carb diets.

I'm not putting your theory down, in as much as I'm trying to help you look for more scientific foundation to what you are doing, to better asses it's benefits, let alone counselling others .

Research is a better argument than feelings and assumptions.

Wa'il

[alto]

I've always believed that what separated the chimps from Man is a couple hundred thousand mastadon steaks. Protein develops brain power as well as muscles :)


I respect anyone's eating style, although I certainly wouldn't go to a vegetarian board and start lecturing everyone about how they should be eating meat. But I think one should look to the differences as well as the similarities -- and, more importantly, as has been said, rely on scientific data. :)

[LC Sponge]

None of us are dieting.

Our bodies are realizing their ideal weights because we have decided to be kinder and stop feeding them crap.

This isn't rocket science.

[VegieMax]

Id be happy to put some research abstracts together. What exactly is it you would like to know or for me to support? Granted it will take time to compile and in not sure the admin would want it posted.

I would welcome meat eaters to a vegetarian board as long as the research they sited was not commissioned by the Beef Council. Even then it would make for a lively discusion.

I stand by the chimp statement - they are our closest genetic relative. Ive never seen an overweight chimp in the wild.

The reason we have the enzymes to break down meat protien is the same reason we have the enzymes to break down plant protien. People forget there is protien in all vegetable matter, even fruits. And no low or should i say genetically correct protien levels do not cause muscle wasting, thats a myth.

One thought I did have is that the Atkins diet maybe helpfull in the short run because it is allowing time for the insulin receptors to relax in the absence of high insulin levels brought on by eating simple sugars. That is a good thing, following it up with a diet that does not match our genetic predisposition is a matter for discussion.

VegieMax

[VegieMax]

By the way I think the admin has done a masterfull job on this website. Its really a model of community building on the web. As well as an obviously good profit model.

VegieMax

[tamarian]

Originally posted by VegieMax
What exactly is it you would like to know or for me to support?


Any of your claims :) Any study on harm, or short term only benefits of low-carbing.

in not sure the admin would want it posted.
I am the admin :) So no worries, we love studies and research, and publish counter arguments all the time.

I would welcome meat eaters to a vegetarian board as long as the research they sited was not commissioned by the Beef Council.

Great, pass me the URL. I have about 10 good studies not comissioned by the beef council. Remember the issue of sponsors as well when you brings us studies for short-tern benefits of low-carbing :)


I stand by the chimp statement - they are our closest genetic relative.

So, I was hoping for a response other than "ha ha" to the de-evolution argument. :)

Ive never seen an overweight chimp in the wild.
Nor have I seen overweight wild meat eating humans. Which fairly more documented for hunters gatherers than evolving vegetarian chimps in the wild.


And no low or should i say genetically correct protien levels do not cause muscle wasting, thats a myth.
O.k. so you're no longer against protein, just to a specific amount, I guess?

Atkins diet maybe helpfull in the short run because it is allowing time for the insulin receptors to relax in the absence of high insulin levels brought on by eating simple sugars.


Short term again. So what long-term harm is there by not having high insulin levels?

following it up with a diet that does not match our genetic predisposition is a matter for discussion.

Sure, but so far the only evidence to this "genetic dispossiition" I read from you was "ha ha." You can't blame someone for questioning that argument. :)

Wa'il

[tamarian]

Originally posted by VegieMax
By the way I think the admin has done a masterfull job on this website. Its really a model of community building on the web. As well as an obviously good profit model.

Why thank you. Wanna transfer your stocks from WW, or SlimFast to us?

Wa'il

[doreen T]

It's true that subsistence protein can be derived from a diet of fruits, nuts and the occasional insect ... and certainly more than enough carbohydrate ... what's missing here is FATS. Yes, nuts and oily fruits can provide short-chain fatty acids. But the long-chain essential fatty acids -- EPA (eicosapentanoic acid) and DHA (docosahexanoic acid) specifically ... are found pre-formed in nature only in animal-source fat. Long chain fatty acids are the chief constituents of our brains and nerve cells. The fact that the human brain, in particular the cerebral cortex, has evolved to be much larger in proportion than chimps indicates the human need for long-chain fatty acids is also greater.

Humans can synthesize DHA from plant-based alpha-linolenic acid (ALA or LNA), but the process is inefficient and incomplete. It's bioligically simpler to acquire DHA directly from animal-source fat. In fact humans are born lacking the desaturase enzymes necessary for the conversion of plant-based fatty acids -- human-breast milk is necessarily rich in pre-formed DHA. As well, a substantial percentage of human adults are deficient in these enzymes. This suggests that the ability to synthesize DHA (and EPA) from plant-based fatty acids is not part of natural human evolution. Rather, it's an inefficient survival adaptation to the lack of pre-formed long-chain fatty acids from animal sources.

It's interesting to note that early humans were scavengers before they were actually hunters. There's much evidence to show that the leftover kill from some other predator provided early humans with much-prized nutrition. Specifically, they were able to bash open the skull to get the brain, and whack and scrape off the ends of the long bones of the limbs to get the marrow, both of which are the richest sources of -- you guessed it -- DHA.

Doreen

[doreen T]

Comparing the human and chimpanzee intestinal tracts - indeed, they are somewhat proportional in length, but that's where the similarity ends. They differ widely in structure, function and bacterial environment.

In humans, the small intestine is where nearly all digestion of food and absorption of nutrients takes place, and takes up 56 - 67% of gut volume. Whereas in chimps the small intestine is only 23 - 38% of total gut volume. For chimps, the large intestine or colon is where much of the breakdown of food and absorption takes place. Since the diet of chimps is primarily high-fiber fruits and vegetative matter .. the small intestine isn't able to break down the fiber to yield energy or nutrients. But, the large intestine of chimps is highly specialized .. and is proportionally longer than humans, and also more convolutions, creating more internal surface area for absorption. The bacterial flora is also different. The chief function of this is fermentation ... the chimp's large intestine is designed for bacterial fermentation of fiber, to break it down into simple saccharide sugars that are absorbed and used for energy. Humans have some slight fermentative capability, but it's not efficient and in general, fiber is undigested and passed out of the body.

Doreen

Here is a graphical representation of the evolution of the digestive tracts of primates, and the dominant digestive organ of each.

.

[LC Sponge]

Originally posted by VegieMax
One thought I did have is that the Atkins diet maybe helpfull in the short run - VegieMax
I wonder what it is that's been helpful to me in the long run then? Hmmm.

Let's see. I'm not on any medications, I'm healthier than I've been in years, a significant of non-weight related ailment has practically vanished (RLS), I'm more motivated, energized, stable, than ever before. My blood pressure (both readings) and heart beat are steady just slightly below average. I can run 6 km now and I've never been able to run 1/2 mile in my life before now. I don't even breathe hard. I can lift heavier weights than I ever have been able to before. All my cholesterol readings are right on. My blood sugar is reliably even.

Have I mentioned I celebrate 2 years on Atkins in a few short days? I resemble a wild chimp NOW more that EVER :D

Gee - so far your arguments just don't make me wanna change my eating habits.

Nice chart, Doreen - great debate rebuttals, Wa'il. The good news is I hit another all time low today. :thup:

[pamlose130]

Ok, I've lost track. This is a vegetarian board. Are we for or against eating meat, and are we for or against low carb. :confused:

[surlymel]

Originally posted by VegieMax
One thought I did have is that the Atkins diet maybe helpfull in the short run because it is allowing time for the insulin receptors to relax in the absence of high insulin levels brought on by eating simple sugars. That is a good thing, following it up with a diet that does not match our genetic predisposition is a matter for discussion.

Perhaps you've forgotten that humans have been separated by about 4.2 million years from any chimp-like relatives. The last humanoid strain with vegan dentition (Australopithecus boisei - had molars about 4x the size of modern man, and no dramatic incisor/canine profile) died out sometime after 1.8 million years ago, though it co-existed with other human species at the time. Every other tool-making hominid before or since has eaten some amount of meat in their diets on a normal basis - that's shown in bone caches, tooth wear, clothing and the tools that they used.

If you have a problem with eating meat, that's great. I sympathize (though I'm allergic to nuts and soy, so I have to get protein from other means). Just don't come in here with a *moral* objection to meat-eating that you've tried to prove with science. Science doesn't work that way.

[doreen T]

Originally posted by pamlose130
Ok, I've lost track. This is a vegetarian board. Are we for or against eating meat, and are we for or against low carb. :confused:
The Vegetarian forum was set up specifically for those lowcarbers who choose to not eat meat .. and while there aren't a huge number of members posting, there is a lot of useful, respectful information, helpful tips and links. We moved this particular discussion from the Vegetarian forum because it's more appropriate in the Research interest area.

This debate is not about being for or against meat. THAT is a personal choice, which I totally respect. And that's the point .. we as humans have the cerebral capacity, and the physical opportunity to make choices .. based on personal belief systems, moral, ethical or spiritual .. or physical preference. But the argument that we have evolved biologically to eat only fruits and similar ready-to-pluck-and-eat vegetation or insect cannot be proven .. in fact the extensive research I've done shows that humans have evolved with the ability to derive nutrition from both animal and plant sources. The fact that we have the capacity to choose should be celebrated :)

One interesting piece I read about long-term observations of chimp societies showed that chimps will eat animals not because that's all there is to eat .. but in PREFERENCE to fruits and vegetation. They live on fruits because that's the most abundant, and easy to procure food that's available. If they come upon an insect or grub .. yay, nummers ... the bug is eaten in preference. Chimps are opportunistic, just as humans are .. and if the opportunity arises to kill a small animal or they happen upon the leftover kill of some predator -- even if the trees are sagging to the ground with ripe fruits -- they will choose to eat that in preference. Observers report that an animal-kill ... in particular the brain and glandular organs .. are deemed to be a PRIZE, and much squabbling and asserting of the social order as to who gets to indulge and when.

Doreen

[sammiejam]

ok vegiemax?
got that??

hmmmm.... point is....

WE ARE HUMANS, NOT CHIMPS,OK?

i could make a joke here about someone being a CHUMP, but i wont.

as soon as you have compiled the "scientic evidence" that we should eat the same diet as a chimpanzee, please post it.

[Nellie]

Some evolutionists may THINK we are "related" to chimps. But it depends on what you are looking at. If we go by certian enzymes we're more closely related to a chicken than a chimp. Remember, evolution is a theory, not a fact.

I personally believe we are not in the animal kingdom at all. For one thing, who invented chocolate? man or beast?? I rest my case.... ;)


Nellie

[Karen]

I personally believe we are not in the animal kingdom at all. For one thing, who invented chocolate? man or beast?? I rest my case....

Hmm. If my dogs could talk, they would have told me how to invent butter and cheese! ;)

Karen

[captxray]

:D
Hi, everybody!
Gee, I love a good debate (argument), If eating meat is so bad for me why has my blood pressure gone back to the way it was when I was 17(I'm 54)? Why am I losing weight and feeling better than I have ever felt in my entire life? Why do I have so much energy? Why does canola oil have so many poisons in it? Why does hydrogenated oil cause cancer and (from the latest studies...scientific, I might add...not sponsored by the beef counsel...) quite possibly lead to so many autoimmune disorders? Why is grain full of the same things that cause autoimmune disorders? Why is soy a poison? Why are fava beans, lima beans, and soy beans toxic when eaten raw? Why are the nightshades so bad for us? Gee, I want to eat all the vegan foods, but I really don't want to die of some disease caused by eating most of what they eat. I get it, let's all eat fruit, berries, leafy green veggies, and a bug or two and see how well we prosper...really long life? NOT! Sorry...I am not a chimp and my ancestors haven't been "chimplike" in about 15 million years, last time I checked. A lot can happen in 15 million years.

[sammiejam]

i cut and pasted this in my diary

so funny.

[captxray]

:lol:
HA! HA! HA! I just looked at how she started this little talk. She said, "I follow a genetic diet..." HA! HA! HA! Since when do we have the genetics of a chimp? I wonder if she's aware that they use pig skin in skin transplants because their skin is so similar to ours? Or, what about all of the pig organs they're starting to use in transplants...they're pretty closely matched, too. Now, I may be a big, fat guy with a beard that looks like Santa to the kids and a biker low-life to their parents, but I don't actually think I look that close to a pig! Let me look in the mirror...well...yeah, I'm pretty big, still...hmmm, no snout for rooting out roots...gosh! My eyes look kind of pig-like! AWK! I better start eating pig food! I only need to get down on all fours and...voila!..yep! I think we are all pigs, in disguise! Forget the bed, I'm gonna build a sty in my back yard and sleep there, tonight. Gotta be a slave to my "genetics." You vegans are such a bunch of cut-ups! HA! Ha! Ha! I love this forum! Bring on more of these funny people! I especially loved the "Scientific" part...Ha! Ha! Ha! Hint: Look at the world, today. See all of the autoimmune diseases that there is no record of in the fossils of early hominids? Where did they come from? Whoa! That's pretty tough! MONOCULTURE AGRICULTURE started in the NEOLITHIC and so did autoimmune diseases! 1+1=2...get it? Nah! Let's just eat living things that don't have eyes...oh, my GOD! What if plants really do scream when we eat them...or cook them...and we just can't hear it? Humans are what's wrong with the earth. Let's all go on a big fast and eat dirt. That'll work. NOT!

[pamlose130]

we can't all live and let live. For every ounce of research that you find pro vegetarian, you find pro carnivore. I think you have to just do the research and choose your own path. And respect the rights of others to do the same. My daughter and I have chosen to be vegetarians, for humane reasons. Her, because she loves animals and wouldn't hurt anything, even to live. And I do it out of respect for her. Now we do eat dairy and eggs, and many other vegetarian choices. But those are our choices for who we are and how we feel now, today. I personally am not related to chimps or pigs. Doesn't matter to me how humans lived a million years ago. That was then, life has changed dramatically for all since then. But I can see by this forum, man gets along no better now than Cain and Able did in their time. So blessings on you today and if conflict is what you are into, be you vegetarian or carnivore, I guess you are in the right place. :rolleyes:

[doreen T]

hi Pam,

I understand how you feel. The original debate topic of this thread is not meat-eater vs. vegetarian -- rather, it's about the theory that humans are genetically designed to consume the same fruitarian diet as chimps. I believe I was able to disprove that theory, but I made it very clear that we humans have been given the capacity to CHOOSE. Whether we choose to eat meat, no meat, only fruit, only raw foods, strictly vegan etc ... we have the capacity to make the choice for whatever is our belief system, and that should be celebrated.

Blessings to you too, and I wish you much low carbing success :)

Doreen

[pamlose130]

thank you Doreen, I knew there was still kindness out there some where.

[tamarian]

Pam,

This thread if you follow it from the start is not about respecting each others opinions, it's more about self-rightiousness for anti-low-carbers.

It's basically about the political correctness and media hype against low-carbing weather it with meat or vegetables.

Having been bombarded by too many opinions against low-carbing, our forum provides a safe place for low-carbers to demand proof of any one who have claims they are unhealthy.

So yes, we are bound to offend many people, who are well-meaning to save us from our politically incorrect diet if they come here and expect us to take their arguments without demanding the facts.

This is done in the hope they'll open their eyes. They don't have to convert to become low-carbers, but at least, with no supporting research, they could admit that they're not sure. If they're open minded enough to admit that, then that's a good step. ;)

Wa'il

[Karen]

Hi Pam,

You seem to have a good handle on vegetarian low-carbing. The vegetarian forum could probably use some help with someone, such as you, who has experience in it. There are always people asking for advice and not many of us have that type of experience. Having an experienced person there will really help that forum grow and be a great help to others who visit it.

Karen

[pamlose130]

could someone please help me get to the vegetarian forum?

[doreen T]

I see that you just posted there a few minutes ago .. but .. here's an easy route - click on the home icon up at the top right. That will take you to the forum's main index page. Scroll down the index of forums till you see the Daily Low-carb Support Category. Look for Vegetarian in the listing (they're alphabetical). Voilà :)

Doreen

[tamarian]

Originally posted by pamlose130
could someone please help me get to the vegetarian forum?

Here it is:

http://forum.lowcarber.org/forumdisplay.php?forumid=109

It's also visible from the main page, listed among the Daily low-carb support.

Wa'il

[captxray]

:roll:
Pam! For crying out loud! Get a sense of humor! I didn't write that stuff to hurt your feelings....geez...It's just that another person, who started this whole thing came on and started preaching to us about how bad our diet was and that she had all sorts of scientific proofs...which she hasn't yet posted, incidentally. If you want to be a vegetarian, so be it. I believe in letting people live in any way they feel that's best for them. But, when somebody comes on this forum and starts preaching to us about how bad our diet is, when it's pretty well proven that it isn't, well...
As far as eating vegan for humanitarian reasons, here's food for thought (get it? HA!). The primary reason for the extinction of so many species in the last 10,000 years has been monoculture agriculture. In order for a farmer to make a field to grow his/her crops, he/she has to irradicate the beasties who might eat the crops. The pesticides used today are killing off entire fauna, and flora, ruining the soil and the crops are depleting the soil of whatever nutrients are still there. Farmers add in nitrogen, phosphorous, and potassium...that's it...because it makes the crop yield better. No more micronutrients, etc. The near extinction of wolves, and Grizzly bears, for example has been caused by the need for farmers and ranchers to protect their herds.
How is it humanitarian to kill off entire species so we can eat grains, dairy, and nightshades? This is not meant as a slight against you for your moral convictions...just something to think about.

[pamlose130]

Like I said before "live and let live". The first two pages of this thread were, for the most part, all in fun. But somewhere along the third page it got way side tracked, and turned into something else. It was ugly and no longer edifying, for me or likely anyone else reading it. Blessings on your low carb efforts. I assume if anyone reading this thread wants "scientific support" they can just as easily go to a PETA website as any one else. Or for that matter the anit-PETA websitses.

[Victoria]

I just have to put in my two cents. Man was created by God, not as chimps and then evolved to man. I know that plenty of people consider evolution to be truth. But I do not. So...with that in mind, I do not agree with VegiMax, because I do not agree with her first premise. We all are here to learn from each other. But I think VegiMax is here to spar. ;) Which is fine. We all enjoy discussion. There are vegetarians doing low carb, as well as meat eaters. And we learn to respect each other's choices. :daze: Victoria

[Andy Davies]

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. It is my view that we all have to find our own path, and tweak our own ways form a variety of influences - and respect everyone else and their choices. For instance, my wife is a vegetarian, and so are most of my children. I do not eat vegetables at all. We respect each other's positions, and I feel the same way about other members here.

I have one snippet to add that has not been mentioned yet, and to show my lack of bias, it rather favours the vegetable-eaters, who hold very different views from mine. A study was done into "primitive" tribes in the third world, to try and discover traces of digestive disorders, such as diverticulitis, constipation, appendicitis, cancer of the colon, and so on. None were found. The tribes in question were consuming carbohydrate levels which, in industrial countries, was associated with exactly these digestive conditions. Further research showed that the difference turned out to be purely the amount of refining which was taking place with the carbs. Flour was rough-ground, and the husks and other outer layers were left in with the flour, thus retaining all the nutrients and vitamins which industrial refining removes, and of course, increasing the amount of fibre. The same was true of other cereal crops, which were winnowed by hand, and coarse-sieved.

The conclusion was that it is not the carbohydrates per se which were causing intestinal and digestive ailments (as well as obesity) in industrial societies, but the degree of refining. If only we could persuade refiners to go back a hundred years in their refining methods, we could all eat far more carbs than is safe for us now, and be much healthier for it. This, I think, may well support some of Vegiemax's earlist arguments.

However, Doreen is also right. The one thing we need more than anything else for healthy brain and central nervous system development is fatty acids. A study which deprived two volunteers of all dietary fat for a week had them frantic for fat, and exhibiting various signs of physical distress.

My final point is this, and it argues against the vegetarian way of life. There are certain vitamins which man needs, that he is not able to synthesise himself. The only way he can obtain them is by consuming organisms that have already manufactured these vitamins and enzyme chains themselves, that is to say animals which provide us with red meat.

Each person makes their own choice. I live with vegetarians, while they live with a carnivore. We accept each other's right to choose, and allow them to live by that decision. There is no harm in bringing new information to the other's attention and debating health implications, provided all parties are prepared to talk and listen with mutual respect in intelligent, respectful debate.

May peace, harmony and happiness be with you all, and may you all find your own effective solution to long-term eating.

Andy

[captxray]

:q:
Wow! Andy!
Good stuff about processing. I would like to read the studies about that stuff regarding vegetarian diets in third world countries. Can you reference one or two of them? Would be appreciated. My understanding is that grains and milk are thought to be very high in humanly harmful lectins, which are very bad for us in the forms that they exist in those types of foods. It is being studied, even as I write, to get a definitive answer on that one. Because of the harmful lectins, those foods are thought to cause many of the autoimmune disorders present in the world, today, since agriculture became prominent. Those diseases don't show up in the fossil record until the advent of agriculture about 7,000 years ago. This, of course, was before the highly processed foods we have today. Anyway, would love to read that stuff. Always looking for answers.

[Andy Davies]

Hi Captxray,

There is a considerable amount of material I think you would like to see, including the items you mention, which I have written up in a long Word document and I can send to you by e-mail I will be sending you a PM message to arrange this.

Andy

[Jilly]

LC Sponge,

That made me snort my decaf coffee (with cream!)!

Thanks for making my day!

Jilly

[speck]

As an anthropology instructor, I run into the same misconceptions about human evolution as VeggieMax has. While it is completely true that chimpanzees and humans share over 98% identical genetical material, making them our closest living relative, fully anatomically modern humans did not evolve from them or even in the same environment as them. About 5 million years ago, living on the edge of a mixed forest-grassland environment lived a species of primate. Over hundreds of thousands of years, some members of this population moved deeper into the forest, and through many transitional phases, evolved into chimpanzees, perfectly adapted to life in a forest eating fruit and leaves, termites and the occasional monkey. The rest of this ancestral ape population moved farther out onto the savannah, adapting to eat the grasses, roots, shoots and other vegetable matter available on the plains. This was not enough to sustain them or their ever increasing brains and upright posture. So they began to scavenge on the carcasses of animals that were brought down by predators. Through time, these early "transitional" humans, became more and more reliant on the fat and protein obtained through animals. Their big brains lead them to invent tools and with that they began hunting. Fossil evidence and archaeological digs clearly show that humans hunted and ate meat. The seemingly pointless and often dangerous, human appendix is a vestigel organ that probably helped early humans digest the massive quantities of raw meat they consumed (other hypotheses exist). With the innovation of cooking meat, the appendix function has become unnecessary and the energy required for the body to maintain it has been better diverted elsewhere. We are not evolved from chimps, our ancestors were homo neanderthalensis ("cave men"), home erectus, homo habilis, and a slew of australopithecines. All of which lived in an environment that required them to exploit animals as food.

[Andy Davies]

Thank you Speck for that very interesting contribution. Our paths have not crossed before, so let me welcome you very warmly to this Forum. I hope we will be seeing many more posts from you - you clearly have a lot to offer!

Andy

[doreen T]

Originally posted by Andy Davies
........However, Doreen is also right. The one thing we need more than anything else for healthy brain and central nervous system development is fatty acids. A study which deprived two volunteers of all dietary fat for a week had them frantic for fat, and exhibiting various signs of physical distress. Just to clarify for readers' benefit -- my original argument was not that humans simply need fatty acids. Such need could be met adequately through the consumption of nuts, seeds, oily fruits and other vegetative sources.

My assertion is that humans require two specific fatty acids, DHA and EPA, which are found in nature ONLY in animal sources. While many people are able to convert some vegetable-derived fatty acids to DHA in a rather inefficient but adequate manner, a significant percentage of the human population lack the enzyme necessary to carry out this function. This strongly indicates that humans were designed to acquire nutrition from animal sources, and the ability to convert vegetable fatty acids has developed as a survival adaptation.

Doreen

[CherylAust]

Do we have to act like chimps as well? I recently watched a documentry where wild chimps murdered another chimps baby and ate it.

In my mind the reason there are no fat chimps in the wild is because they have to expend a lot of energy in the collection of food, no jumping in the car and driving to the corner shop for them, they are out climbing over trees looking for their din dins. I could go out and do that here, but the only trees I got are Gum trees, look what they do to Koalas. I'd not only be fat but drugged too.

Cheryl

[Baby_Munch]

Imagine there was a sudden mass extinction and our "closest living ancestor" turned out to be ant-eaters, should we then start eating ants? :p Caveman, who are genetically more similar to us than the chimps, actually ate more meat than we do! Ofcourse, it was in the form of deer and elk and the such, not farm-fed cows and pigs. As for the milk thing, if you're lucky enough to have the "mutant gene(s)" that can tolerate lactose, why pass up enjoying an ice-cream every now and then?

Why the preoccupation with dieting? Isn't it obvious? (oh, pardon me if it's not for someone who's 6'2 and 160lbs) Socially, people who are over-weight (or, nowadays, even just a bit chubby) face very unpleasant discriminations. Moreover, the media gives added pressure, REAL and powerful pressure. Ironically, so do advertisers of food products. We are surrounded by easily accessible (not to mention many processed) food, a very "unnatural" environment. Even dogs and cats could become obesed in this environment. It is actually "natural" for animals (including humans) to give in to temptation and overindulge given a chance (not to mention enough "conditioning trials"). And not everyone can (genetically) "afford" to eat alot and remain at a healthy weight. Most importantly, preoccupation with weight has to do with health issues. I don't need to spell out the adverse effects of being overweight now do I?.....

And by the way, you ARE on a "diet" too, just a different one and at a different stage. You may not be counting anything (calories or carbs or whatever) but it sounds as if (if you're eating like a chimp) you are staying away from certain foods and not eating whatever is out there, no? Well, many here are basically doing the same thing, only a little differently. If you have no trouble or interest in giving in to temptations, and/or if you naturally have a high metabollic rate, and/or if you enjoy exercising, if you've managed to make healthy behaviours automatic then good for you! Congratulations on your accomplishment! The rest of us are only trying to built a healthier life for ourselves too, and "preoccupation" with dieting is usually the starting point. Whether or not you approve of the means, well, that's really none of your business..... :) Take care!

[Andy Davies]

My apologies to Doreen. Strangely enough, what I had in mind when writing that post was "dietary fat from red meat", but I must have been distracted at the point of posting. And just to reinforce the point, the dietary fat the two volunteers were deprived of was the fat that came with red meat.

Andy

[paddington]

I have to admit that when I follow a higher protien eating process like this one, I feel much better about myself, I don't crave sugar, and I have more energy. Trying a vegetarian one just doesn't work for me at all. And I have to admit have a reference to chimps is not a complimentary comparison. HMMMM.
:(

[captxray]

:dazzle:
Note to Speck. Where do you teach? I went to Cal St. Northridge and was a Paleanthropology major back in the late 60s and very early 70s. My undergraduate degree was in Anthropology. I'm very interested in the new stuff that has come down the pike since then. Questions: 1. You say that we evolved from Homo Neandertalensis...really? Back in the "old days" we were of the belief that Homo Sapiens Neandertalensis was a race of Homo Sapiens that died out, or was overtaken by Homo Sapiens Sapiens (us, and what we call, "Cro Magnon Man"). I thought they quit calling old Neanderthal a separate species about thirty five years ago. 2. All of what I was taught said that Australopithecus (most of its' various forms, except one) was a separate division on the scale of evolution and most were not really our ancestors. Although, Homo Habilis was thought to have evolved from one branch of them. I'm trying to remember the species name we called it...Australopithecus pithecus (?). Very interested to read your further posts.

[speck]

Hey Capt, thank you for pointing that out... I get so used to lumping them all together as relatives/ancestors of ours for simplicities sake, I should have been more clear. There are always differing opinions about which hominid was the direct ancestor of which. The most popular family tree seems to be ardipithecus ramidus -australopithecus anamensis - australopithecus afarensis - australopithecus africanus (with the robusts branching one way and dead ending) - homo habilis - homo erectus - homo ergaster (may or may not be a side branching dead end) - archaic species (like neanderthals, h. antecessor, h. heidelbergensis, etc.) - anatomically modern homo sapiens (first Cro-Magnons then us, more or less). Neanderthals have been pretty much ruled out as a direct ancestor, more of a cousin, but sharing a common ancestor probably with h. erectus, although some still hold to Neanderthals as direct predecessors of amhs, it's less popular.
And to answer your question I teach at a Cal State campus (not Northridge ;) and a very large community college in So. Cal.

[captxray]

:p
Hey Speck! It's all starting to come back to me, now! Thank you! Once a teacher, always a teacher, eh? I'm a teacher, too, up here in Klamath Falls. But, I teach emotionally disturbed adolescents in high school, and then I am a divorce/child custody court mediator and a psychotherapist in the evenings...kind of goes along with primitive Man...don't you think? Anyway, thanks, so much for the update...Thirty years ago we hadn't (at least, I hadn't) heard of ardipithecus ramidus or australopithecus anamensis. Is ramidus what we used to call Ramapithecus? Not sure of the spellings, anymore. Who was anamensis? This is great! An anthropology teacher in our forum! Being as how I am on Neanderthin, I am very interested in the early hunters and gatherers and I'll bet you can answer many questions some of us have in this regard. Looking forward to more of your posts.

[RCFletcher]

Chimps do eat a lot of meat. As well as hunting monkeys they fish for and eat termites and other insects. They also eat roots, vegitables nuts and fruit. They do not eat large amounts of cellulose (leaves) because like us they can't digest it.

What chimps do NOT do is grow wheat, bake bread, eat pizzas and pasta, and crush sugar cane to get out the sucrose and then add it to everything.

I would suggest that the majority of people who use this board eat a diet much more similar to a chimp's one than to a vegitarian's.

I'm a reformed vegitarian myself. I gave it up when I realised I was living a lie. All life is sacred and we all kill to eat. How far removed that life is from humanity is irrelevant. Boiling a cabbage is killing as sure as any animal is killed to eat it. Life and death are all intertwined.

Just my two pence worth.

Robert

[Andy Davies]

Hi Robert,

I agree with you. You make a logical and sensible case, and it certainly has my vote.

Best wishes,

Andy

[lee]

Robert, I especially appreciate your point that we must consume other life, no matter what we eat.

[Turtle2003]

Absolutely right. It's what's inside that counts. Please read this comparison of the digestive tracts of the sheep, wolf, and human. We are much closer to the wolf than the sheep (but you would only have to watch the news to know that.) ;)

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/carn_herb_comparison.html

BTW, I knew that chimps would eat meat when they could, but I was fascinated recently to watch a nature film of chimps hunting monkeys. A couple of chimps would select hiding places and the other chimps in the group would chase some monkeys into the ambush. Pretty effective, but our ancestors must have been even better, because we are the ones who developed the big brains.

[captxray]

I have to admit, the argument about eating life to sustain life makes a lot of sense. Militant vegans seem to be following a hypocritical woe and lifestyle when they put meat eaters down and villify us and see themselves as following the "higher road." Life is precious, no matter where it's found bcause it provides other species a chance to live...whether it be in the slime mold that moves across the tree trunk, or that noble Bambi that was blasted by the hunter and carted home to become venison (much higher in omega 3 fatty acids, and lower in omega 6 transfatty acids than cow meat, incidently) on his barby. Let's all face it. If we want to survive (and there are some who think that Humans are the reason that the world is in such straights and should be eliminated...I call these folks, WACKOS) we must eat something dead which was once alive...plant, animal, whatever, but it must be from living organisms. We don't do well eating dirt, or rocks. If life isn't precious in any form, why are we spending billions to see if the most primitive forms of life could exist elsewhere in the universe? So, to all you militant vegans who read this and think we are the epitomy of evil and that you are on the "high road" to moral living...GET OVER IT!!! GET A LIFE!!! LEAVE US ALONE! GO SPOUT YOUR MORALITY TO SOMEONE WHO CARES!! This is a forum for meat-eating omnivores...OH WELL! TOO BAD! I ain't changing to poorer health to satisfy your need to kill off more species (as evidenced by the number of little animals and insects that are wiped out from each pass of the tractor in your fields of grain) than meat eaters do, for anything! Does this sound mean-spirited? It really isn't. Anybody who comes on this forum to preach to us about the evils and "stupidity" of our WOE is the mean-spirited one who should mind his/her own business!

[M.Jacob]

Veggiemax is confused. While it is true our closet genetic relative is the chimp at about 98% to argue we should adopt their diet is very simplistic. First, chimps eat meat at every opportunity; their evolutionary circumstances don't always permit this. Thus, they are forced to adapt. This is not always evolutionarily optimal in a biological sense. Evolution does not imply forward progression and in fact often force spices backward in terms of biological optimality. Second, the human brain was forced to evolve, as hunting needs demanded. Your brain is far more developed due to the hunting for meat cave men had to do. Third, all evidence points to the fact that we evolved as a separate species because we were hunter/gatherers not gatherer/hunters. As such we developed our own unique set of biological needs based on our evolution. We are 99.999999% genetically similar to those who hunted over 11,000 years ago. As such a diet based on preagrarian times would logically be the most optimal. Fourth, we are 95% genetically related to 95% of most of the creatures on this planet. Even creatures within the same spices but in differing subgroup can have vastly differing dietary requirements, so to say we should eat what chimps eat is way off. Chimps would be better off low carbing and probably would if they could.

[Andy Davies]

Hi M,

Welcome to the active lowcarbers forum, and congratulations on your first post, which I thought was well-judged, well-argued and instructive.

You have naturally gravitated to a viewpoint very similar to that held by the person responsible for getting me into low-carbing in the first place. His name is Dr Richard Mackarness, whose book "Eat Fat and Grow Thin" was based on what he described as the "Stone Age" or "pre-cereal" diet. It was his contention that biological adaptations take hundreds of thousands of years to take place, so humans eating cereals were not biologically equipped to digest them properly. This was not so bad when processing was done by hand, because a lot of husks and other roughage found its way into the processed product. But many people cannot metabolize cereals processed mechanically because we lack the specific enzyme chains which would make this possible. Thus, for those of us with this defect (that is all of us here), as long as we eat what our forbears would have eaten 11,000 years ago, our bodies will be in good shape and we will be healthy. Incidentally, Mackarness's book was first published in 1958, some 14 years before Atkins.

I have reviewed Mackarness's book for this forum (among other books) and if you would like to read more about it, click on this link:-

http://www.lowcarb.ca/atkins-diet-and-low-carb-plans/stone-age-diet-mackarness.html

Best wishes,

Andy

[Gracia_30]

And through all of this, we've lost vegiemax... I think close to page 3... Too bad he missed all the good arguments to his theory.

[Lisa N]

Yup...Veggiemax made a total of 8 posts and hasn't been heard from again since January 17, 2002. It's a shame they didn't stick around to hear the very sound rebuttals to their position, but everyone else who reads this will get the benefit so it's a good thing that a dialogue on the subject was opened even though the originator didn't stick around to benefit from it.

Somtimes I think that people come to this forum to "save" us from our "unhealthy" ways thinking that we haven't thought through or WOE and then split when they encounter strong and well-reasoned arguments in favor of what we are doing before they get "converted". LOL

[amieK]

Sixteen years of vegetarianism left me overweight, sick and tired.
Despite my philosophical leanings toward a vegan/vegetarian diet it just does not work for my body. Period.

In the past three years I've been doing a lot of experimenting, going on and off LC. And I've found what works for me and it involves eating meat or eggs at least 2x per day. My body rebels when I try to go veg; my blood sugar gets unstable, my thinking becomes unfocused and I tire easily. Who needs that?

Chimps, vegans, vegetarians, go ahead and eat what feels best to you and I'll do the same.

Bon apetit!
amie

[kjturner]

Well, hey?! What about the Breatharians????

[kjturner]

I just read this whole thread...I have to be amused at the theory of eating like a chimp just because we share nearly 99% of genetic material with them. On the other hand, that makes them so far removed from us that we can't interbreed with them. A horse and a donkey are much more closely related, and they can interbreed, but cannot produce a viable offspring. And look at goats and sheep--both are considered ovines, yet they can't interbreed either. So my question is: Do we *really* have that much in common with a chimp? Actually, it is known that chimps do eat insects and small animals. I believe gorillas are the only known true fruitarian primates aren't they?
As someone pointed out earlier, we seem to have much more in common with pigs, as we can use their organs, and pigs are also omnivorous, just like us. I have to be amused at folks who consistently try to argue that we are vegetarians--especially the folks who argue the 'back to Eden' way of eating. Well, keep reading your Bible folks...God also gave us animals, birds and insects to eat and with very strict guidelines as to how to choose what to eat and how to end their lives swiftly and mercifully and to prepare them with honor and gratitude. Granted, today's slaughterhouses aren't great in that respect (some are better than others), but one can find a local abbatoir where the local grassfed cattle/sheep/goats are taken to the back door and quickly shot then freshly prepared. At least you know the animal didn't suffer in that situation and arrived at the abbatoir's in good condition. Yes, I am one of those folks who believes a person should have killed and prepared an animal or fowl at least once in order to truly appreciate what the creature is giving you--and thank it for it's sacrifice. It will live on through you.....

[Hellwoman]

Phil Kaplan had too much to say about how he was shafted out of TV interviews. Perhaps that is why he is so anti Atkins???
He talked about Kidney stones in Atkins diet followers. Well, read any medical journel or search the web, and most Doctors cannot determine what causes Kidney stones. It is more than often hereditary or a lack of sufficient water intake and in the extreme Hypothyroidism.
Dr Atkins suggests lots of water.
It reminds me of when a family member (in-law) got kidney stones. She was always on a diet, however low fat, and she would not drink water or any water based beverage.
She contracted Kidney stones and the best advice her Dr gave her was to drink 8 glasses of water a day and steer away from sugar laden food.
Now,------ doesnt that say something, and that was in 1984.
Helen
Anyway, dont body building types like Phil, live on protein and then eat carbs before a competition to bulk themselves up??? Isnt that more damaging??

[PoofieD]

The best body builders eat a diet that is fairly normal but high in veggies and protiens without worry about carb intake except that its clean (ie whole grains) in the months of training before a competition.
Then when they have gotten the size they want in muscles just in the few weeks before the comepetion they go.. Yes folks.. VERY LOW carbs to get the muscle definition they want as carbs help hold the water in the body.
Its a delicate balance between size and definition. They are judged on Both.
Nedra

[ysabella]

The chimp that is genetically closes to us is the Bonobo chimp, which can communicate with sign language, add, subtract, and even do fractions (I saw a film when I was studying cognitive science).

Bonobos also are incredibly peaceful animals and have no war. Why not? They are too busy having sex and various kinds of sex-related play. I'm serious, they fool around all day (http://www.blockbonobofoundation.org/). (More info here (http://www.geocities.com/willc7/bonobos.html).)

So, even more important than eating fruit and termites as "VegieMax" suggests, we should adopt their behavioral habits, and we'd all be happier and healthier, wouldn't we? The world economy would come to a screeching halt, but there'd be no more war or killing.

I don't think it's for me, though. I wouldn't want to catch everyone's fleas. :D

[kjturner]

I will NOT--I repeat NOT-start eating termites!!! Not even for sex!!! :D

[jujubaby]

Just reviewing some posts since I have been off the low carbers forum for some time.
Just for any one's information: I lost a brother in 1987 who was a vegetarian for years and years was slim and died suddenly. No autopsy was preformed, {at family's request} and no hint as to what he died from. But he was the only one in a family of 6 men and one female {me} to skip the obvious, a stress test.
Three brothers had by pass operation and one had a stent put in place at 75yrs.
The person they thought would not need the stress test died. It was more than certain the cause was a heart attack.

So the high and mighty veggie can run around as smug as can be but he should get a paid up life insurance because no one knows for sure what is happening to his arteries unless he is tested or scanned.

[Teuthis]

Somewhere along this genetic trail you have built, we departed from Pan Troglodytes in that we had access to a great deal of protein which physically enabled us to develop our big brains. We could not have done so without large and consistent amounts of protein. Vegan mothers have been found to produce children with protein defects in their brains, which cause them to be retarded. We are genetically tied to proteins in our diets. Reading the entrails of chimpanzees hardly qualifies as an intelligent aproach to understanding homo sapiens' nutritional needs.

[Ogden]

Question: Was it even possible for a large group of humans to be vegitarians before the invention of agriculture? Agriculture was instituted, what?, Maybe 14,000 years ago? I am sure that seems long enough on a societal scale to appeal to people who are vegitarians and who come out of culture of vegetarianism, to say that we should be vegetarians because that is how some cultures have lived and thrived, but 14,000 years isn't enough time for us to have evolved to that changed diet, so to suggest it is our preferred eating situation is stretching things. Realistically, could a decent-sized poulation of humans (we are BIG primates) have found enough food to feed and sustain themselves without meat, before argriculture? You have to remember that wild foods are much smaller than the currently available modern varieties too. This includes seed sized for grains. Some were not even edible before cultivation. Take the almond for example, a staple of many traditional cultures, but poisonous in its pre-cultivated form (too high in tannins, I believe).

[JAV]

I wanna eat crap waaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[kjturner]

...not *literally* crap...I hope! :D :D :D

[Laura D]

Originally posted by VegieMax

The closest human relative on the genetic tree is the Chimp.
99.8 percent genetic match

The have a long intestinal tract very much like the human one.

They mostly eat high fiber complex carbs, with a fairly minimal amount of protien. Mostly nuts and seed and ants.

diet just does not make any sense genetically for most people.

I welcome others thoughts on this.

VegieMax

Ummm, nuts, seeds and ants are a high protien, low carb diet.

[gotbeer]

Chimpanzee Hunting Behavior and Human Evolution

by Craig B. Stanford
link to full article (http://www.americanscientist.org/articles/95articles/Stanford-full.html)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
excerpt:
In the early 1960s, when the British primatologist Jane Goodall first observed wild chimpanzees hunting and eating meat in Gombe National Park, Tanzania, it was widely believed that these animals were strict vegetarians. Skeptics suggested that the diet of the Gombe chimpanzees was aberrant. Others suggested that the quantity of meat the chimpanzees ate was trivial.

After more than 30 years of research, however, it is now clear that meat is a natural part of the chimpanzees' diet. Indeed, hunting has been observed at most of the other sites where chimpanzees are studied across central Africa. And, it turns out, a chimpanzee community may eat several hundred kilograms of meat in a single year.

[rhosynn]

I don't know. Some seem to take up low carbing almost as a religion. I have some medical reasons to lose nearly a hundred pounds. I will say I am never hungry on Atkins.

The only cravings i have are for comfort foods and emphasis on the comfort.

I am on low carbs cause I am effectively losing weight. Other than that, I don't pay much attention to it. I find watching my diet so closely boring but at least with Atkins i can only eat a few things and that's what i do.

I think Max offers some interesting ideas.

I was vegeatrian for 8 months and no flour and no sugar and lost only 7 pounds, despite vigourous exercise.

:wave:

[BJ_1971]

i have been on a low carb diet for 2 1/2 years now and it has helped me greatly. it has inabled me to get controll of my diabtes and loose wieght. of corse i have to once again loose weight due to having a baby in febuary. but anyways i am on a low carb diet and do not eat much meat at all. meat makes me feel bogged down and slow paced. and i dont like all the added injected hormones in meat , it contributes to health problems. i have read that when we die we can have up to 5 pounds of yucky meat in our digestive tract. but i ,like almost anyone, like the taste of meat so i do eat it sometimes. but come on ppl it is not worth aruging about.
i figure in the begining God made us not to eat meat because there was no killing of anything so in those days no animal had to die to be eaten. but things changed so they began to kill animals and eat them. so our bodies have adapted somewhat so we can now eat meat. but i still think the avarage american eats way to much meat, that is why the average child now a days goes thru puberty way to early because of all the injected hormones in meat. but is it worth getting hard :Puke: feelings and fighting about? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :spin:

[rhosynn]

I am heartily sorry if i have offended anyone at all. No hard feelings here at all.

You know i thought about people being born to eat only meat. But a total meat diet can cause scurvey, which is fatal. Some vegetable mater must have been included.

[Froggirl]

Ummm just my opinion again...I was a vegan for several years..In fact I work with a 350pd Veggie...Post me the FACTS..and I will post mine. On the healthy body front...I have seen some fat chimps in my time tooooo.... :eek: You mean diffrent strkes for diffrent folks? NOOOO everyone should be the same...life would be SO much more fun that way. NOT! :wave:

[RCFletcher]

In Britain we can get 'organic' eat which is free from all chemicals - can't you get this in the States?
Robert

[captxray]

VegieMax, who originally started this thingy is gone, I guess, made her mark and left it up to us to talk this thing to death. I don't know if she ever bothered to notice that ANTS are a part of the animal kingdom...MEAT...PROTEIN...and that isn't all that chimps eat from the animal kingdom. Our good buddy of the rain forests, Jane Goodall, who now does chimp calls on Earth Day, also saw them chasing down and killing and eating baboons and monkeys...I think that would translate as MEAT under most circumstances. If you don't believe me, look at her book from the 60s by the National Geographic, or in an old Geographic and see the actual pictures of a chimp doing just that. Chimps are meat eaters...done! Enough Said...Bye Bye!

[Elihnig]

People who would eat a totally meat diet would not eat just the muscle meat like we would. They would eat every part of the animal that was edible.

Fresh, lightly cooked meat will give you all the vitamin C you need.

See the study about Steffansson and his partner who lived a year on meat and fat only and were in perfect health.


Beth

[captxray]

Elihnig!!!! You're soooo right! You have read about paleo diets??? Steffanson pretty well proved that a person could live comfortably...for a very long time...on an all meat/fat diet. Scurvy is caused by a lack of vitamin C...which is present in fresh meat and fat. The difference between Atkins and a true Paleo diet (like the one I'm on...Neanderthin) is that our metabolism has completely changed to a fat-burning metabolism (without complex carbohydrates)...carbs, in the form of dairy (yuk!!) and grains(complex carbohydrates) make me quite ill. I get almost all of my energy from fat, rather than from complex carbohydrates. I also really know when I'm in need of nourishment...not just "hungry." I get a weak, rundown feeling when I'm in need of food. I also have no cravings for anythiing other than a salad, at times (if I'm not eating enough greens). The trouble I had with Atkins, on the three times I went on that woe, was that the cravings for complex carbs never left! I was so addicted to complex carbs that the small amounts I was able to eat on Atkins just kept my addiction alive and I was miserable. I have totally givin up dairy and complex carbs and have been on this WOE for almost two years. I made the mistake of going out to eat Mexican Food...oh, MY GOD! It was awful for three days! I went to eat Chinese about three months ago...Not a good thing! There are certain foods I could certainly eat in both restaurants, but I was rebellious and tried to nosh the "forbidden" foods (rice, beans, CORN chips, tortillas, the "secret sauce" of the Chinese restaurant, bean sprouts). NEVER AGAIN! I am a Complex Carb Addict in REMISSION. I eat all of the meat AND the fat, along with bones (if they are soft enough). My metabolism is so different that I now can literally drink the fat juice that sits in the pan after a roast is cooked! That would have turned me off in the old days, I'll tell Ya'!!! Now, that is not necessarily a good idea with corn-fattened beef, chicken or pork (because of the high concentration of Omega 6 trans-fatty acids caused by the grains fed to them to fatten them up), but if I eat the meat of grass-fed animals, I could always do it. I sneak some, now and then because I am not perfect and I love the stuff...NOW! I have never felt so good.

[Elihnig]

Captxray, I read everything I can get my hands on.

I also read those long threads you and others wrote over in the Paleo forum. Great stuff!

I keep thinking to myself about going paleo some day.

Well, I kept thinking about doing BFL someday and now I'm doing it!


Beth

[captxray]

Elihnig...hey! You're doing it and losing, I see. That's the main point. I think paleo is the best way to go because I'm basically a purist...NOT! I'm really just lazy and I don't have to count anything on Paleo...Looks to me like you're doing just fine on BLH. Like I said, I'm a "reformed carboholic" and I simply MUST abstain from all complex carbs. So, paleo is the only way to go for me. For all I know, being a vegan may be the right diet for some people...my daughter, for one. She just hates eating meat. Although, I'm very unpolitically correct and don't think we were ever designed to NOT eat meat. I know that grains and dairy are bad for all of us, though. I have researched this subject quite "heavily," if you catch my drift, and all indicators point to them being the bane of society and the reason for most, if not all, of our autoimmune disorders...did you know that 98% of us die from some form of autoimmune disease? Yup! Look what most people eat. No contest...no matter what they will say. People think there is nothing wrong, until they assume room temperature..."natural causes," they call it. HA!

[LoveSong]

Yes, Max... this isn't a diet--it's a change of lifestyle.

Diet's usually don't work, but changing the way you eat can, and does!

Of course you are welcome to ask questions, but don't be surprised if a lot of people who have had much success with this way of eating disagree with you and even resent what to them sounds like criticism of Dr. Atkins' plan!

~Debbie~LoveSong~ ;)

[toning_up]

But a total meat diet can cause scurvey, which is fatal. Some vegetable mater must have been included

Not entirely accurate. The Inuit of North American who are living in their traditional lifestyle eat ONLY meat and do not suffer scurrvy. White settlers in the early days who tried to emulate their diet, did get scurrvy.

The difference is, the Inuit ate a diet that consisted entirely of raw meat. Vitamin C is still readily available to the body while meat remains uncooked.

[doreen T]

Muscle tissue, whether cooked or raw .. doesn't contain a lot of vitamin C. However, organ meats in particular the liver, heart, some mollusks (oysters) and fish roe are good sources of this vitamin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C#Animal_sources


Doreen

[black57]

This analogy is silly. No matter how genetically close we are to animals our diets cannot be compared to animals. We need to look at genetics from a human standpoint. Native-Americans, for expample, were hunter/gatherers. Many of these cultures survived and flourished on a high protein diet. When did they become obese, diabetic? When did they begin losing bone mass? These things happened after their diets became filled with carbs.

[watcher16]

Do animals look at their genetics before going after food?

I guess not...so why wouldn't I try to eat intuitively? :yum:

Warrior Diet!

[potatofree]

I know why I shouldn't eat intuitively. Two words... Krispy Kreme. :)

[kyrie]

I dont really understand the preoccupation with dieting.
The closest human relative on the genetic tree is the Chimp.
99.8 percent genetic match...<snip>...
They mostly eat high fiber complex carbs, with a fairly minimal amount of protien. Mostly nuts and seed and ants.

They also eat smaller monkeys, pigs, baboons, and deer, whenever they get the opportunity. They also live half as long as we do, and they like to throw their poop.


If you look at the typical diet of the lifetime maintenance plan on Atkins, you'll see people eating mostly salad, with a bit of meat, with berries, whole grains, and dairy for variety. Atkins really isn't a high protein diet. It's high fat, yes, but protein is only high during induction.

[kyrie]

Didn't people tend to get scurvy when they were on ships for long periods of time with no fresh veggies OR meat? Living on biscuits and heavily smoked jerky?

[watcher16]

I know why I shouldn't eat intuitively. Two words... Krispy Kreme. :)
OK, but that is an addiction, even animals are known to be able to get addicted to stimulation.

Sugar is to be removed from your feeding habits ;)

[IceMan]

I don't know exactly where on the evolutionary record we became seperated from chimps by a mere fraction of DNA...but I'd be willing to bet that's when we left their hairy butts in the woods and moved out on the plains where we could hunt buffalo....:D

[sledge333]

hello everybody,
i have read so much about food that i am almost sick of it! having read about nutrition from the age of 16, i can say, i must know something! One of the reasons the AT/diet works is that ur carbs are low! fat is not the ememy, not in its raw form!
nuts and seeds etc. carbs in the form of bread , pasta ect, are man made and most things man has made seems to come back and bite us on the ass! food is meant to be eaten not cooked!
but i must admit that i do have to eat some cooked food, it taste better. other and that i eat as much raw food as possible and i find it hard to gain weight when i do. so forget all these fad diets and eat as naturualy as possible.
"you are what u eat! "

[funkycampe]

I am heartily sorry if i have offended anyone at all. No hard feelings here at all.

You know i thought about people being born to eat only meat. But a total meat diet can cause scurvey, which is fatal. Some vegetable mater must have been included.
Uh...not so. In fact, Artic/Antartic expeditions quickly found that the best way to prevent scurvy was to eat freshly killed meat. In the Antartic, penguin meat was prized for its ability to combat scurvy.

[LukeA]

Another reason why native americans didnt get scurvy even though eating mostly meat and fats, is that even in the winter they made a tea out of the bark of birch trees that is extremelly high in vitamin c.

[sugarjunky]

Ummm, nuts, seeds and ants are a high protien, low carb diet.

My thoughts exactly....... :wave:

[RCFletcher]

The reason that the native people in the far north of the Scandanavian countries don't get scurvy in the winter is that they eat the contents of their reindeers' stomachs which is partly digested reindeer moss.

Just thought I'd throw that in for good measure and something to think about when we next see Santa and his reindeer on someone's roof!

P.S. I've been doing some research. Yes, it is true. Fresh meat contains enough vitamin C, canned meat doesn't. Polar explorers who ate fresh seal meat did not get scurvy.

[chaih20]

My problem is that there is an underlying assumption that just because s certain way of eating was/is more "natural" to a pre-evolved version of ourselves (neanderthals, chimps, you name it) necessarily means it is better for us. Species evolve to the easiest way to survive, and they eat what is available and most efficient, and their digestive systems adapt. Now that we can eat whatever we want whenever we want maybe its not the best thing for our waistline to eat the 'Most efficient" food (carbs) energy wise. even though it keeps the monkeys running. As twisted as it is, nowadays we want don't WANT our bodies to be able to easily digest things...and store them as fat. And additionally, just because chimps eat lots of carbs, and not much protein, doesn't mean its even necessarily "natural" for us-- they are actually a different species even if they're the same genus. And even if it were natural for us....I take issue with "natural" always equating to "healthy."

There is the same fallacy in the beauty industry that "natural" is always better-- that's why women by exfoliants with harsh crushed seeds and shells in them that damages their skin, when the synthetic exfoliants are much better. I know skn products aren't exactly like food, but still, its the same idea.

Maybe we just live in a civilization that has evolved faster than our bodies have been able to keep up. I mean, we all still have little toes, and they are a "natural" phenomenon..but we don't NEED them and they are senseless. Nature doesn't have a brain, it is a machine always creating the most efficient process.

[Dodger]

I mean, we all still have little toes, and they are a "natural" phenomenon..but we don't NEED them and they are senseless.
Hey,

Without my little toes, I could only count to 18!

[MyJourney]

I thought we need our little toes for balance? (sorry I didnt read this entire thread, just the last page)

[Hellistile]

The little toe example shows that we have not had enough time to evolve without one even if we don't use it. Same goes for food. Our bodies can't handle food that was invented/created by the agricultural age. Indirectly proves the theory that we need to eat paleo.

[Misty'sMom]

[QUOTE=captxray]we must eat something dead which was once alive...plant, animal, whatever, but it must be from living organisms. We don't do well eating dirt, or rocks. /QUOTE]

I have to ask, because it popped into my mind as I was reading this post ... and this is asked both on a serious level and tongue in cheek ...

Do militant vegans aspire to the nobility of worms and dung beetles because their lifestyles harm NO living thing ...

[MyJourney]

I think only the fruitarians harm no living thing. Vegans dont seem to feel that plants hurt. Fruitarians will only eat fruit that naturally falls off the tree. They dont even believe in picking it.

The little toe example shows that we have not had enough time to evolve without one even if we don't use it.

but I thought we do use our little toe? We use our big toe to push off when we walk or run, and our little toe to keep us balanced. So why would we not have it?

[Grimalkin]

Our appendix is a better example I think. As far as we know its completely useless in humans (and can be dangerous if food gets in there). But in many herbivores the appendix is enlarged and called a caecum, it is used to ferment vegetable matter in the intestines to absorb a few extra nutrients from it. The fact that ours is just a vestigial remnant suggests that our long-departed ancestors used to eat primarily plants, but that humans haven't done that in a long, long time.

Wisdom teeth are another. These back molars were intended for grinding plants up. But some people only get one or two, or have none at all - like me. I've had my jaw x-rayed and they are just not there and never will be!

[Dodger]

An alternative theory could be that the appendix is not fully developed as we have not been eating vegetable matter long enough for the evolution to be completed. Maybe in the future, humans will have fully functioning appendixes and be grazing like cattle!

[Nancy LC]

Long thread, dunno if anyone pointed it out yet, but chimps eat meat including... ew, other chimps. So I think I'll refrain from emulating chimps.

[captxray]

:yum: I wonder what chimp tastes like? Might not be bad. As long as he hasn't had too many veggies the day he becomes part of my food chain! :lol:

[NoLogo]

While I get the basis for the argument, aboriginals did not subsist off of meat alone. They harvested wild rice, beans, fruit and various other foods. Yes, meat was undoubtedly the staple of the diet rendering it very high in protein, but unless it was just for effect, I don't think we should be redefining an entire culture's diet. I know that many of us bike/run/walk whatever to stay fit, but for ideal compatibility with their diet we would be racing around in arctic temperatures searching for food, often going without seal/deer etc. for considerable periods of time, something that fat storage would accomodate quite well. I too follow a variation of low carb in that I avoid the grass family. The thing is that the reason why traditional diets, be it the 'Med diet', 'Japanese Fisherman diet' or similar conventions are espoused as very healthy is due , in my opinion, to the gathering of indigenous foods. For example, if I eat tropical fruit I probably shouldn't be eating caribou. I think looking at the various 'families' of plants and animals reveals the proper approach. If we apply this approach to low carb things seem to work. The aforementioned grass family is comprised of barley, corn products, oats, sugar cane (...) which are generally forbidden. The mustard family encompasses broccolli, cabbage, cauliflower, mustard greens (...) things that, I think, are considered okay. The potato family includes eggplant, peppers, tomatoes and the obvious- things that are not considered good choices. Anyway certain families compliment each other better than others. I think this is key. Whilst writing this I have to keep questioning the absurdity of it. I mean, yeah we all want to follow the most appropriate diet, but talking about it seems so bizarre at times...