Is Coconut Oil Healthful?

[George Che]

The short answer is no. This is from Harvard Medical School:

Q: I've read that organic coconut oil has health benefits.
Could it improve lipid profiles if consumed every day?

R: I doubt that coconut oil has health benefits, especially
beneficial effects on lipids, and I wouldn't recommend that
you consume it regularly.

For years, fat was portrayed as unhealthful. That's not true.
"Bad fats," such as saturated and trans fats, are bad for you,
but "good fats" - monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats -
actually have health benefits.

Saturated fats are a problem because they tend to increase LDL
cholesterol levels, which in turn raises the risk of
developing atherosclerosis and the heart disease and strokes
that follow. True, they also tend to increase HDL ("good")
cholesterol, but not enough to compensate for the bad effects.
Trans fats increase LDL and lower HDL, a double whammy.

Dietary oils - canola, corn oil, and so on - are all forms of
fat. But unlike most other oils made from plants, coconut oil,
as well as palm oil, are high in saturated fat. Saturated fat
comes in several varieties; coconut oil is rich in one called
lauric acid. Some groups and self-proclaimed experts are
hawking lauric acid as a wonder food that will boost your
immune system, help you lose weight, fight cancer - you name
it. Needless to say, the evidence is weak to nonexistent. A
respected nutrition textbook on our shelves does refer to the
possibility of it having modest cavity-fighting properties. By
contrast, there's a great deal of evidence that, like other
saturated fats, lauric acid increases LDL levels.

As with most dietary don'ts, there's no need to be a
prohibitionist. If you want to enjoy an occasional piña colada
or a Thai curry dish, go ahead. I
Ra. Coconut milk and oil are delicious. Just don't kid
yourself that they are good for you.

Anthony L. Komaroff, M.D., is editor in chief of the Harvard
Health Letter, available at www.health.harvard.edu/health.

[monty1945]

These guys are totally lost. If coconut was "bad," Asians
would have massive rates of heart disease and other "chronic
diseases," which are now very common in the West. It is in the
West that the highly peroxidizable unsaturated oils, like
corn, soy, canola, vegetable, safflower, sunflower, etc., have
become predominant over the last 30 years - and that is why we
see all these "epidemics" now, and not in the early 1900s,
when "heart disease" was very rare.

The problem with their thinking is that they classify lard,
which is less than 40% saturated, as a "saturated fat," and
they also classify coconut oil, which is 92% saturated, also
as a "saturated fat." So when the do the studies, there is no
scientific reality there. It is true that coconut oil could
raise cholesterol levels in some people, but it doesn't
oxidize the cholesterol, as polyunsaturated fatty acids do, so
the PUFAs are the real problem, and all the evidence supports
this, once the old, incorrect assumptions are reevaluated.

The Harvard epidemiological crowd has no clue about the
molecular-level processes involved. They are a really lame
crowd, intellectually. If you want to know what is really
going on, go to this link:

http://www.cwru.edu/pubaff/univcomm/2002/june/cholesterol.htm

There you will read:

Macrophage cells, described as the garbage trucks of the
blood, try to carry away oxidatively damaged LDL. When
macrophages get gummed up with oxidized lipids, they "become
bloated with partially digested lipoprotein and globules of
cholesterol" and form "foam cells," Salomon said. Eventually
foam cells develop into the atherosclerotic plaque found in
cardiovascular disease. "Macrophages are supposed to clean up
oxidatively damaged LDL but are covered with these toxic
oxidized lipids that bring the whole process to a grinding
halt," Salomon said.

Note that an oil like coconut oil will not do this to LDL, but
the highly unsaturated oils will, some to incredible degrees,
usually depending upon the antioxidants that are in it, though
canola oil seems to be especially bad, from the research I've
read (and I doubt anyone has read more of ALL the studies that
are even somewhat related to this issue as I have).

Even though AHA spokesman Dr. Richard Stein stated eplicity
that only oxidized cholesterol is dangerous, it will take at
least a few years before the mainstream "experts" change
their tune, because they can't do it so quickly as to make
fools of themselves, but now you know the scientific reality,
and if there is something anyone doesn't understand, feel
free to ask. You can also go to pubmed.com and search for
things like oxidized cholesterol and read through the
studies/abstracts yourself.

[Mr. Natura]

Is Coconut Oil Healthful?

Yes! It is great in shampoo and hair conditioners.

Is Coconut Oil Healthy?

No!

Just thought that you might want to know that YOU blew the
Subject Line, George. :(

[Juhana Har]

George Cherry wrote, quoting Harvard newsletter:
:
: unlike most other oils made from plants, coconut oil, as
: well as palm oil, are high in saturated fat. Saturated
: fat comes in several varieties; coconut oil is rich in
: one called lauric acid. [...] there's a great deal of
: evidence that, like other saturated fats, lauric acid
: increases LDL levels.
:
: As with most dietary don'ts, there's no need to be a
: prohibitionist. If you want to enjoy an occasional piña
: colada or a Thai curry dish, go ahead. I do. Coconut milk
: and oil are delicious. Just don't kid yourself that they are
: good for you.

Thanks for a good posting George. It was interesting to hear
the Harvard opinion. On the other hand coconut consumed as a
part of a whole diet seems to be quite neutral in terms of
cardiovascular health:

Asia Pac J Clin Nutr. 2004;13(4):377-84.

Dietary intake and the risk of coronary heart disease among
the coconut-consuming Minangkabau in West Sumatra, Indonesia.

Lipoeto NI, Agus Z, Oenzil F, Wahlqvist M,
Wattanapenpaiboon N.

Faculty of Medicine, Andalas University, Padang,West Sumatra,
Indonesia.

Several nutrition and non-nutritional pathways are recognised
in the development and occurrence of cardiovascular disease.
In many populations, high intakes of saturated fat are
associated with elevated serum cholesterol concentrations and
increased coronary heart disease (CHD) mortality. However,
several studies report that hyperlipidaemia and heart
diseases are not common among populations who consume
coconut, a source of saturated fat. A case-control study was
conducted among the Minangkabau known to be high coconut
consumers to examine the difference in food patterns and risk
of coronary heart disease (CHD) between the coronary cases
and their gender- and age-matched apparently healthy
counterparts serving as controls. Eligible subjects with CHD
were identified through the co-operation of five
participating hospitals located in Padang and Bukittinggi in
West Sumatra, Indonesia. A total of 93 eligible cases (62 men
and 31 women) in the Case group and 189 subjects (113 men and
76 women) in the Control group were recruited. Information on
the intakes of individual foods and dishes over the preceding
12 months was obtained using a semi-quantitative food
frequency questionnaire. The Case groups had significantly
higher intakes of meats, eggs, sugar, tea, coffee and fruits,
but lower intakes of soy products, rice and cereals compared
to the controls. Coconut consumption as flesh or milk was not
different between cases and controls. The cases had
significantly higher intakes of protein and cholesterol, but
lower intake of carbohydrate. Similar intakes of saturated
and unsaturated fatty acids between the cases and controls
indicated that the consumption of total fat or saturated fat,
including that from coconut, was not a predictor for CHD in
this food culture. However, the intakes of animal foods,
total protein, dietary cholesterol and less plant derived
carbohydrates were predictors of CHD. PMID: 15563444

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search-
&DB=pubmed

--
Juhana

[monty1945]

Here's another one, of many. Just do a pubmed.com search and
see for yourself.

"In recent years, a new understanding has developed of the
relationship between lipid metabolism in the artery wall,
especially in macrophages, and inflammation. Oxidized LDL is
regarded as a major neoantigen in atherogenesis and is
probably the major source of the lipids that are stored in the
macrophage foam cells. Although the bulk of the lipid stored
in foam cells is cholesteryl ester, it is likely that
increased concentrations of lipid signaling molecules, such as
unsaturated fatty acid and oxysterol, are also present..."

Note that they talk about unsaturated fatty acids, not
saturated ones. The arachidonic acid, an omega 6 PUFA, is
mostly to blame, though you could say that a high iron diet or
a diet low in antioxidant-rich food "contributes" to it, among
other things.

Source: http://www.jlr.org/cgi/content/full/46/4/619

And here's the Dr. Richard Stein quote:on page B17 of New
York's Newsday newspaper (March 1, 2005), he states: "What
we've learned in the last 15 years is that LDL has to be
oxidized in the vessel wall... [in order for plaque to
accumulate and become dangerous]."

Note that coconut oil is not going to do this, but canola oil,
saflower oil, etc., will.

The Harvard crowd is at least 15 years behind the times, and
stubbornly clings to ludicrous notions about "saturated fat"
causing "heart disease."

[Mr. Natura]

Juhana Harju wrote:

> Thanks for a good posting George. It was interesting to hear
> the Harvard opinion. On the other hand coconut consumed as a
> part of a whole diet seems to be quite neutral in terms of
> cardiovascular health:

Double-talk, no matter how slick, is still an insult to good
OLD George. :)

> A case-control study was conducted among the Minangkabau
> known to be high coconut consumers to examine the difference
> in food patterns and risk of coronary heart disease

Minangkabau???

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

A popular local proverb states: "To Be Minangkabau is to
be Muslim."

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~psanday/eggi2.html "The
Minangkabau are famous in Indonesia and Malaysia for their
matrilineal social system in which all ancestral property is
inherited by women."

Gee, I see evidence of a long standing mental deficit in these
traditional people, right at the start. :)

Hey, Jack. They live on a big island in south east Asia. What
does that point out? Fish, ... fish, and more fish. Fish is a
major part of their diet.

Thus, any health benefits could be easily be attributed to the
fish in their diets.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/ajc/2001/00000010/0-
0000001/art00201 "Rice, fish, coconut and chilli are the basic
ingredients of the Minangkabau meals. Meat, especially beef
and chicken, is mainly prepared for special occasions; pork is
not halal and therefore not eaten by Muslim Minangkabau
people; and for reasons of taste preference and availability,
lamb, goat and wild game are rarely eaten. ... The traditional
combination of rice, fish and coconut in Minangkabau culture
goes back hundreds of years, long before the emergence of the
degenerative diseases of the newer economies, and is likely to
offer food security and health protection to the Minangkabau
for as long as the lifestyle remains traditional."

Furthermore, after looking specifically for the longevity of
the Minangkabau people. I found absolutely nothing. Gee, I see
no evidence of outstanding longevity here.

Just thought that you might want to know.

[Mr. Natura]

George Cherry wrote:

> Saturated fat comes in several varieties; coconut oil is
> rich in one called lauric acid.

Gee, Monty, I see absolutely no conflict with Lard, here. :)

> Some groups and self-proclaimed experts are hawking lauric
> acid as a wonder food that will boost your immune system,
> help you lose weight, fight cancer - you name it.

"Some groups" is PC language for Kooks.

> Needless to say, the evidence is weak to nonexistent.

Yes, why am I not surprised?

> A respected nutrition textbook on our shelves does refer
> to the possibility of it having modest cavity-fighting
> properties. By contrast, there's a great deal of evidence
> that, like other saturated fats, lauric acid increases
> LDL levels.

Reality sucks, Monty, doesn't it?

No, not really. Just do not fool yourself into believing the
abundance of Kooks on smn.

[Ron Peters]

George Cherry wrote:
> The short answer is no. This is from Harvard Medical School:

I found the following text at diseaseproof.com: All tropical
oils (palm and coconut) are highly saturated fats. Like
butter, cheese, and meat, tropical oils raise LDL cholesterol
and clog arteries with plaque, increasing your risk of a heart
attack. We use coconut oil (because it is so highly saturated)
in animal experiments to create atherosclerotic plaque for
studying heart disease in animals. There are different kinds
of saturated fats with different impact on LDL cholesterol
levels. One long-chain sat fat, stearic acid, has little
impact on LDL cholesterol. But other long-chain saturated
fatty acids, like the ones that make up most of the saturated
fat in coconut and palm oils (known as tropical oils), do in
fact raise LDL cholesterol considerably. These saturated fats
are called palmitic, myristic, and lauric acids. They also
make up most of the saturated fatty acids in meat, poultry,
and dairy fats like milk and cheese. Other saturated fats that
have little impact on LDL cholesterol levels include
medium-chain varieties like caproic, caprylic, and capic
acids. A small percentage of the saturated fat in coconut oil,
about 10%, is made up of these less harmful saturated fatty
acids, but virtually all the rest of coconut oil's saturated
fat is made up of the long-chain varieties that raise LDL.

Coconut oil is getting promoted on the web, internet and even
the health food industry, claiming its healthy because most of
its fat is made up of medium chain fatty acids (MCT), which
are metabolized differently. Yes, it is true that a small
portion of coconut oil is MCT (C-6 to C-10 fatty acids) and
these do get oxidized more quickly and have little impact on
LDL-C levels. However, because the vast majority of saturated
fatty acids in coconut oil are the longer chain fatty acids,
C-12 to C-16 (lauric, myristic and palmitic acids) it does in
fact elevate LDL-C. The idea that MCT fats will induce weight
loss or detoxify the liver is an example of alternative
nonsense at its highest level. Coconut oil is 92% saturated,
making it more saturated than butter, beef tallow, or even
lard. Palm oil, though it contain less saturated fat (50%), is
full of a type of saturated fat, palmitic acid, which appears
to be most conducive to heart disease.

--
Ron

[Mr. Natura]

Ron Peterson wrote:

> George Cherry wrote:
> > The short answer is no. This is from Harvard Medical
> > School:
>
> I found the following text at diseaseproof.com: All tropical
> oils (palm and coconut) are highly saturated fats. Like
> butter, cheese, and meat, tropical oils raise LDL
> cholesterol and clog arteries with plaque, increasing your
> risk of a heart attack. We use coconut oil (because it is so
> highly saturated) in animal experiments to create
> atherosclerotic plaque for studying heart disease in
> animals. There are different kinds of saturated fats with
> different impact on LDL cholesterol levels. One long-chain
> sat fat, stearic acid, has little impact on LDL cholesterol.
> But other long-chain saturated fatty acids, like the ones
> that make up most of the saturated fat in coconut and palm
> oils (known as tropical oils), do in fact raise LDL
> cholesterol considerably. These saturated fats are called
> palmitic, myristic, and lauric acids. They also make up most
> of the saturated fatty acids in meat, poultry, and dairy
> fats like milk and cheese. Other saturated fats that have
> little impact on LDL cholesterol levels include medium-chain
> varieties like caproic, caprylic, and capic acids. A small
> percentage of the saturated fat in coconut oil, about 10%,
> is made up of these less harmful saturated fatty acids, but
> virtually all the rest of coconut oil's saturated fat is
> made up of the long-chain varieties that raise LDL.
>
> Coconut oil is getting promoted on the web, internet and
> even the health food industry, claiming its healthy because
> most of its fat is made up of medium chain fatty acids
> (MCT), which are metabolized differently. Yes, it is true
> that a small portion of coconut oil is MCT (C-6 to C-10
> fatty acids) and these do get oxidized more quickly and have
> little impact on LDL-C levels. However, because the vast
> majority of saturated fatty acids in coconut oil are the
> longer chain fatty acids, C-12 to C-16 (lauric, myristic and
> palmitic acids) it does in fact elevate LDL-C. The idea that
> MCT fats will induce weight loss or detoxify the liver is an
> example of alternative nonsense at its highest level.
> Coconut oil is 92% saturated, making it more saturated than
> butter, beef tallow, or even lard. Palm oil, though it
> contain less saturated fat (50%), is full of a type of
> saturated fat, palmitic acid, which appears to be most
> conducive to heart disease.

You left off the best part of that quote. :( Joel Fuhrman'
Blog On March 9, 2006 01:35 PM

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:iOWiNOdUNmsJ:www.diseasep-
roof.com/archives/healthy-food-269-nuts-and-seeds-are-excelle-
nt-foods.html+coconut+%22tropical+oils%22+site:www.diseasepro-
of.com&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1 "You just can't believe
everything you read on the internet. This man above (and Dr.
Mercola too) has been taken in by health food industry hype,
it is wrong. The coconut oil industry likes to point out that
the traditional Polynesian diet - high in tropical oils like
coconut - is linked with relatively low rates of heart
disease. However, it's important to remember that heart
disease involves multiple variables. It is not all fat. The
high consumption of fruits, vegetables, fish and the low
consumption of cheese and beef obviously are critical in
studies of people on traditional Polynesian diets with low
rates from heart disease. To attribute the benefit to
consuming coconut oil is very deceptive and a clear marketing
ploy. I for one am not claiming that eating coconuts is
unhealthy in the context of an otherwise healthy diet or that
a little saturated fat is so deadly, rather it is the low
level of micronutrients eating a diet rich in processed foods
such as oil and the high consumption of animal products that
shifts natural plant food off our plate that are key. But
anyone that claims coconut oil is a health food, or good
quality butter is good for you, is clearly not someone you
should trust with your health."

[Mattlb]

monty1945@lycos.com wrote:
> These guys are totally lost. If coconut was "bad," Asians
> would have massive rates of heart disease and other "chronic
> diseases," which are now very common in the West. It is in
> the West that the highly peroxidizable unsaturated oils,
> like corn, soy, canola, vegetable, safflower, sunflower,
> etc., have become predominant over the last 30 years - and
> that is why we see all these "epidemics" now, and not in the
> early 1900s, when "heart disease" was very rare.

People didn't stuff their faces the way they do now in the
1900s. There are plenty of other things that have increased in
the diet too, besides vegetable oils.

> It is true that coconut oil could raise cholesterol levels
> in some people, but it doesn't oxidize the cholesterol, as
> polyunsaturated fatty acids do, so the PUFAs are the real
> problem, and all the evidence supports this, once the old,
> incorrect assumptions are reevaluated.

You can't get rid of PUFA. Even if you don't eat them your
body will make them and they'll end up in the LDL.

> The Harvard epidemiological crowd has no clue about the
> molecular-level processes involved.

You're not shining yourself.

> "Macrophages are supposed to clean up oxidatively damaged
> LDL but are covered with these toxic oxidized lipids that
> bring the whole process to a grinding halt," Salomon said.
>
> Note that an oil like coconut oil will not do this to
> LDL, but the highly unsaturated oils will, some to
> incredible degrees, usually depending upon the
> antioxidants that are in it,

LDL gets oxidised in the artery wall where antioxidant
defenses are low. Antioxidants in the oil can't affect that.

> though canola oil seems to be especially bad, from the
> research I've read (and I doubt anyone has read more of ALL
> the studies that are even somewhat related to this issue as
> I have).

Then you should know that LDL comes from VLDL which is a
lipoprotein synthesized by the liver. Most dietary fat goes
straight to the adipose tissue, so most of what is in LDL is
liver-made or processed. In other words, there will always be
PUFA in LDL because the liver makes PUFA. Whether or not
coconut oil has PUFA is irrelevant, you won't end up with
PUFA-free LDL by eating it. You will end up with more LDL
though since it's how the liver spreads cholesterol around the
body. The saturated fat will increase liver synthesis of
cholesterol meaning more VLDL is needed for export, so more
LDL will be the result.

MattLB

[Mr. Natura]

Juhana Harju wrote:

> George Cherry wrote, quoting Harvard newsletter: Thanks for
> a good posting George. It was interesting to hear the
> Harvard opinion. On the other hand coconut consumed as a
> part of a whole diet seems to be quite neutral in terms of
> cardiovascular health:
>
> Asia Pac J Clin Nutr. 2004;13(4):377-84. Dietary intake and
> the risk of coronary heart disease among the
> coconut-consuming Minangkabau in West Sumatra, Indonesia.
>
> Coconut consumption as flesh or milk was not different
> between cases and controls.

Where there it is!!!

The subject line of this thread says: "Is Coconut Oil
Healthful?" But, your research study is about whole-coconuts
rather than just coconut oil.

See: http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:iOWiNOdUNmsJ:www.dis-
easeproof.com/archives/healthy-food-269-nuts-and-seeds-are-ex-
cellent-foods.html+coconut+%22tropical+oils%22+site:www.disea-
seproof.com&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

Show me a study where humans consume coconuts only in the form
of coconut oil that results in their HDL going up while their
LDL goes down.

Plus, we still of have the issue of their consuming large
amounts of fish.

[George Che]

"Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4bb7cjF10djhtU1@individual.net...
> George Cherry wrote, quoting Harvard newsletter:
> :
> : unlike most other oils made from plants, coconut oil, as
> : well as palm oil, are high in saturated fat. Saturated fat
> : comes in several varieties; coconut oil is rich in one
> : called lauric acid. [...] there's a great deal of evidence
> : that, like other saturated fats, lauric acid increases LDL
> : levels.
> :
> : As with most dietary don'ts, there's no need to be a
> : prohibitionist. If you want to enjoy an occasional piña
> : colada or a Thai curry dish, go ahead. I do. Coconut milk
> : and oil are delicious. Just don't kid yourself that they
> : are good for you.
>
> Thanks for a good posting George. It was interesting to hear
> the Harvard opinion. On the other hand coconut consumed as a
> part of a whole diet seems to be quite neutral in terms of
> cardiovascular health:

The stuff is so damn caloric. For example, consider Thai
Kitchen "Premium" Coconut Milk. The only ingredients in a can
are coconut milk and guar gum (no sweeteners).

But a 14 oz can contains 868 calories! What does one get for
868 calories? Mostly fat, which is mostly sat fat.

Why, why drink or eat such high calorie density, low nutrient
density gak?

To put this in perspective, consider a 15 oz can of Libby's
100% Pure Pumpkin. A can of this pumpkin contains about 140
calories, only about 16% of the calories in the Thai milk gak.
And the pumpkin has some real nutrients for your small caloric
cost: 5 g of fiber and 300% of the DV of vitamin A and 7 g of
protein (the same as the coconut milk). And the fat in the
pumpkin is not sat fat.

So why fool around with coconut milk, much less coconut oil
(gak cubed)?

Why be an apologist for this high calorie density, low
nutrient density gak?

George

[George Che]

"Ron Peterson" <ron@shell.core.com> wrote in message
news:1146155290.135459.185880@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>
> George Cherry wrote:
>> The short answer is no. This is from Harvard Medical
>> School:
>
> I found the following text at diseaseproof.com: All tropical
> oils (palm and coconut) are highly saturated fats. Like
> butter, cheese, and meat, tropical oils raise LDL
> cholesterol and clog arteries with plaque, increasing your
> risk of a heart attack. We use coconut oil (because it is so
> highly saturated) in animal experiments to create
> atherosclerotic plaque for studying heart disease in
> animals.

LOL! atherosclerotic plaque from coconut oil gak. Now duck the
Monty flak and the rest of the sat fat pack.

> There are different kinds of saturated fats with different
> impact on LDL cholesterol levels. One long-chain sat fat,
> stearic acid, has little impact on LDL cholesterol. But
> other long-chain saturated fatty acids, like the ones that
> make up most of the saturated fat in coconut and palm oils
> (known as tropical oils), do in fact raise LDL cholesterol
> considerably. These saturated fats are called palmitic,
> myristic, and lauric acids. They also make up most of the
> saturated fatty acids in meat, poultry, and dairy fats like
> milk and cheese. Other saturated fats that have little
> impact on LDL cholesterol levels include medium-chain
> varieties like caproic, caprylic, and capic acids. A small
> percentage of the saturated fat in coconut oil, about 10%,
> is made up of these less harmful saturated fatty acids, but
> virtually all the rest of coconut oil's saturated fat is
> made up of the long-chain varieties that raise LDL.

Okay. How does Monty persist in his mythology?

> Coconut oil is getting promoted on the web, internet and
> even the health food industry, claiming its healthy because
> most of its fat is made up of medium chain fatty acids
> (MCT), which are metabolized differently. Yes, it is true
> that a small portion of coconut oil is MCT (C-6 to C-10
> fatty acids) and these do get oxidized more quickly and have
> little impact on LDL-C levels. However, because the vast
> majority of saturated fatty acids in coconut oil are the
> longer chain fatty acids, C-12 to C-16 (lauric, myristic and
> palmitic acids) it does in fact elevate LDL-C. The idea that
> MCT fats will induce weight loss or detoxify the liver is an
> example of alternative nonsense at its highest level.
> Coconut oil is 92% saturated, making it more saturated than
> butter, beef tallow, or even lard. Palm oil, though it
> contain less saturated fat (50%), is full of a type of
> saturated fat, palmitic acid, which appears to be most
> conducive to heart disease.
>
> --
> Ron

Thanks, Ron. Makes my daily avocado seem super benign, huh?

George

[Juhana Har]

Ron Peterson wrote:
: George Cherry wrote:
:: The short answer is no. This is from Harvard Medical
:: School:
:
: I found the following text at diseaseproof.com: All tropical
: oils (palm and coconut) are highly saturated fats. Like
: butter, cheese, and meat, tropical oils raise LDL
: cholesterol and clog arteries with plaque, increasing your
: risk of a heart attack. We use coconut oil (because it is so
: highly saturated) in animal experiments to create
: atherosclerotic plaque for studying heart disease in
: animals. There are different kinds of saturated fats with
: different impact on LDL cholesterol levels. One long-chain
: sat fat, stearic acid, has little impact on LDL cholesterol.
: But other long-chain saturated fatty acids, like the ones
: that make up most of the saturated fat in coconut and palm
: oils (known as tropical oils), do in fact raise LDL
: cholesterol considerably. These saturated fats are called
: palmitic, myristic, and lauric acids. They also make up most
: of the saturated fatty acids in meat, poultry, and dairy
: fats like milk and cheese. Other saturated fats that have
: little impact on LDL cholesterol levels include medium-chain
: varieties like caproic, caprylic, and capic acids. A small
: percentage of the saturated fat in coconut oil, about 10%,
: is made up of these less harmful saturated fatty acids, but
: virtually all the rest of coconut oil's saturated fat is
: made up of the long-chain varieties that raise LDL.
:
: Coconut oil is getting promoted on the web, internet and
: even the health food industry, claiming its healthy because
: most of its fat is made up of medium chain fatty acids
: (MCT), which are metabolized differently. Yes, it is true
: that a small portion of coconut oil is MCT (C-6 to C-10
: fatty acids) and these do get oxidized more quickly and have
: little impact on LDL-C levels. However, because the vast
: majority of saturated fatty acids in coconut oil are the
: longer chain fatty acids, C-12 to C-16 (lauric, myristic and
: palmitic acids) it does in fact elevate LDL-C. The idea that
: MCT fats will induce weight loss or detoxify the liver is an
: example of alternative nonsense at its highest level.
: Coconut oil is 92% saturated, making it more saturated than
: butter, beef tallow, or even lard. Palm oil, though it
: contain less saturated fat (50%), is full of a type of
: saturated fat, palmitic acid, which appears to be most
: conducive to heart disease.

Very nice reasoning but how about this study:

Cox C, Sutherland W, Mann J, de Jong S, Chisholm A, Skeaff M.
Effects of dietary coconut oil, butter and safflower oil on
plasma lipids, lipoproteins and lathosterol levels. Eur J Clin
Nutr. 1998 Sep;52(9):650-4.

Department of Human Nutrition, University of Otago, Dunedin,
New Zealand.

OBJECTIVE: The aim of this present study was to determine
plasma levels of lathosterol, lipids, lipoproteins and
apolipoproteins during diets rich in butter, coconut fat and
safflower oil. DESIGN: The study consisted of sequential six
week periods of diets rich in butter, coconut fat then
safflower oil and measurements were made at baseline and at
week 4 in each diet period. SUBJECTS: Forty-one healthy
Pacific island polynesians living in New Zealand participated
in the trial. INTERVENTIONS: Subjects were supplied with some
foods rich in the test fats and were given detailed dietary
advice which was reinforced regularly. RESULTS: Plasma
lathosterol concentration (P < 0.001), the ratio plasma
lathosterol/cholesterol (P=0.04), low density lipoprotein
(LDL) cholesterol (P<0.001) and apoB (P<0.001) levels were
significantly different among the diets and were significantly
lower during coconut and safflower oil diets compared with
butter diets. Plasma total cholesterol, HDL cholesterol and
apoA-levels were also significantly (P< or =0.001) different
among the diets and were not significantly different between
buffer and coconut diets. CONCLUSIONS: These data suggest that
cholesterol synthesis is lower during diets rich in coconut
fat and safflower oil compared with diets rich in butter and
might be associated with lower production rates of
apoB-containing lipoproteins. PMID: 9756121

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&d-
b=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9756121&query_hl=7&itool=pu-
bmed_DocSum

--
Juhana

[Juhana Har]

George Cherry wrote:
: "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in message
: news:4bb7cjF10djhtU1@individual.net...
:: George Cherry wrote, quoting Harvard newsletter:
:::
::: unlike most other oils made from plants, coconut oil, as
::: well as palm oil, are high in saturated fat. Saturated fat
::: comes in several varieties; coconut oil is rich in one
::: called lauric acid. [...] there's a great deal of evidence
::: that, like other saturated fats, lauric acid increases LDL
::: levels.
:::
::: As with most dietary don'ts, there's no need to be a
::: prohibitionist. If you want to enjoy an occasional piña
::: colada or a Thai curry dish, go ahead. I do. Coconut milk
::: and oil are delicious. Just don't kid yourself that they
::: are good for you.
::
:: Thanks for a good posting George. It was interesting to
:: hear the Harvard opinion. On the other hand coconut
:: consumed as a part of a whole diet seems to be quite
:: neutral in terms of cardiovascular health:
:
: The stuff is so damn caloric. For example, consider Thai
: Kitchen "Premium" Coconut Milk. The only ingredients in a
: can are coconut milk and guar gum (no sweeteners).
:
: But a 14 oz can contains 868 calories! What does one get for
: 868 calories? Mostly fat, which is mostly sat fat.
:
: Why, why drink or eat such high calorie density, low
: nutrient density gak?
:
: To put this in perspective, consider a 15 oz can of Libby's
: 100% Pure Pumpkin. A can of this pumpkin contains about 140
: calories, only about 16% of the calories in the Thai milk
: gak. And the pumpkin has some real nutrients for your small
: caloric cost: 5 g of fiber and 300% of the DV of vitamin A
: and 7 g of protein (the same as the coconut milk). And the
: fat in the pumpkin is not sat fat.
:
: So why fool around with coconut milk, much less coconut oil
: (gak cubed)?
:
: Why be an apologist for this high calorie density, low
: nutrient density gak?

No need to overdo it. I use coconut milk more like a
seasoning, about 45 g or 1½ oz for one serving. No problem.

--
Juhana

[George Che]

"Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4bccboF10ot3aU1@individual.net...
> Ron Peterson wrote:
> : George Cherry wrote:
> :: The short answer is no. This is from Harvard Medical
> :: School:
> :
> : I found the following text at diseaseproof.com: All
> : tropical oils (palm and coconut) are highly saturated
> : fats. Like butter, cheese, and meat, tropical oils raise
> : LDL cholesterol and clog arteries with plaque, increasing
> : your risk of a heart attack. We use coconut oil (because
> : it is so highly saturated) in animal experiments to create
> : atherosclerotic plaque for studying heart disease in
> : animals. There are different kinds of saturated fats with
> : different impact on LDL cholesterol levels. One long-chain
> : sat fat, stearic acid, has little impact on LDL
> : cholesterol. But other long-chain saturated fatty acids,
> : like the ones that make up most of the saturated fat in
> : coconut and palm oils (known as tropical oils), do in fact
> : raise LDL cholesterol considerably. These saturated fats
> : are called palmitic, myristic, and lauric acids. They also
> : make up most of the saturated fatty acids in meat,
> : poultry, and dairy fats like milk and cheese. Other
> : saturated fats that have little impact on LDL cholesterol
> : levels include medium-chain varieties like caproic,
> : caprylic, and capic acids. A small percentage of the
> : saturated fat in coconut oil, about 10%, is made up of
> : these less harmful saturated fatty acids, but virtually
> : all the rest of coconut oil's saturated fat is made up of
> : the long-chain varieties that raise LDL.
> :
> : Coconut oil is getting promoted on the web, internet and
> : even the health food industry, claiming its healthy
> : because most of its fat is made up of medium chain fatty
> : acids (MCT), which are metabolized differently. Yes, it is
> : true that a small portion of coconut oil is MCT (C-6 to
> : C-10 fatty acids) and these do get oxidized more quickly
> : and have little impact on LDL-C levels. However, because
> : the vast majority of saturated fatty acids in coconut oil
> : are the longer chain fatty acids, C-12 to C-16 (lauric,
> : myristic and palmitic acids) it does in fact elevate
> : LDL-C. The idea that MCT fats will induce weight loss or
> : detoxify the liver is an example of alternative nonsense
> : at its highest level. Coconut oil is 92% saturated, making
> : it more saturated than butter, beef tallow, or even lard.
> : Palm oil, though it contain less saturated fat (50%), is
> : full of a type of saturated fat, palmitic acid, which
> : appears to be most conducive to heart disease.
>
> Very nice reasoning but how about this study:
>
> Cox C, Sutherland W, Mann J, de Jong S, Chisholm A, Skeaff
> M. Effects of dietary coconut oil, butter and safflower oil
> on plasma lipids, lipoproteins and lathosterol levels. Eur J
> Clin Nutr. 1998 Sep;52(9):650-4.
>
> Department of Human Nutrition, University of Otago, Dunedin,
> New Zealand.
>
> OBJECTIVE: The aim of this present study was to determine
> plasma levels of lathosterol, lipids, lipoproteins and
> apolipoproteins during diets rich in butter, coconut fat and
> safflower oil. DESIGN: The study consisted of sequential six
> week periods of diets rich in butter, coconut fat then
> safflower oil and measurements were made at baseline and at
> week 4 in each diet period. SUBJECTS: Forty-one healthy
> Pacific island polynesians living in New Zealand
> participated in the trial. INTERVENTIONS: Subjects were
> supplied with some foods rich in the test fats and were
> given detailed dietary advice which was reinforced
> regularly. RESULTS: Plasma lathosterol concentration (P <
> 0.001), the ratio plasma lathosterol/cholesterol (P=0.04),
> low density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol (P<0.001) and apoB
> (P<0.001) levels were significantly different among the
> diets and were significantly lower during coconut and
> safflower oil diets compared with butter diets. Plasma total
> cholesterol, HDL cholesterol and apoA-levels were also
> significantly (P< or =0.001) different among the diets and
> were not significantly different between buffer and coconut
> diets. CONCLUSIONS: These data suggest that cholesterol
> synthesis is lower during diets rich in coconut fat and
> safflower oil compared with diets rich in butter and might
> be associated with lower production rates of apoB-containing
> lipoproteins. PMID: 9756121
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&-
> db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9756121&query_hl=7&itool=-
> pubmed_DocSum

In other words, some kinds of gak are not as bad as other
other kinds of gak. Are there any studies comparing honey
and sugar?

[Juhana Har]

MattLB wrote:

: LDL gets oxidised in the artery wall where antioxidant
: defenses are low. Antioxidants in the oil can't affect that.

I usually appreciate your postings but in this issue our
views differ.

Atherosclerosis. 2006 Feb 17; [Epub ahead of print]

Postprandial anti-inflammatory and antioxidant effects of
extra virgin olive oil.

Bogani P, Galli C, Villa M, Visioli F.

Department of Pharmacological Sciences, University of Milan,
Via Balzaretti 9, 20133 Milan, Italy.

High postprandial serum lipid concentrations are associated
with increased oxidative stress which, in turn, increases the
risk of atherosclerosis. Epidemiological studies correlate
lower incidence of cardiovascular disease with adherence to
the Mediterranean diet. The aim of this study was to evaluate
changes in inflammatory (TXB(2) and LTB(4)) and oxidative
stress markers (urinary hydrogen peroxide levels and serum
antioxidant capacity), in addition to classic lipid
parameters, after a fat-rich meal administered to 12
normolipemic, healthy subjects. Following a Latin square
design, subjects were divided into three groups, each one
receiving a different kind of oil (extra virgin olive oil;
EVOO, olive oil; OO or corn oil; CO, together with 150g of
potatoes), with 2-week washout periods between treatments.
Blood samples were drawn at baseline and after 1, 2, and 6h
after the meal. A significant decrease in inflammatory
markers, namely TXB(2) and LTB(4), after 2 and 6h after EVOO
(but not OO or CO) consumption and a concomitant increase of
serum antioxidant capacity were recorded. These data reinforce
the notion that the Mediterranean diet reduces the incidence
of coronary heart disease partially due to the protective role
of its phenolic components, including those of extra virgin
olive oil. PMID: 16488419

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db-
=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16488419&query_hl=21&itool=pu-
bmed_docsum

--
Juhana

[George Che]

"Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4bcbjmF10ieeeU1@individual.net...
> George Cherry wrote:
> : "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in
> : message news:4bb7cjF10djhtU1@individual.net...
> :: George Cherry wrote, quoting Harvard newsletter:
> :::
> ::: unlike most other oils made from plants, coconut oil, as
> ::: well as palm oil, are high in saturated fat. Saturated
> ::: fat comes in several varieties; coconut oil is rich in
> ::: one called lauric acid. [...] there's a great deal of
> ::: evidence that, like other saturated fats, lauric acid
> ::: increases LDL levels.
> :::
> ::: As with most dietary don'ts, there's no need to be a
> ::: prohibitionist. If you want to enjoy an occasional piña
> ::: colada or a Thai curry dish, go ahead. I do. Coconut
> ::: milk and oil are delicious. Just don't kid yourself that
> ::: they are good for you.
> ::
> :: Thanks for a good posting George. It was interesting to
> :: hear the Harvard opinion. On the other hand coconut
> :: consumed as a part of a whole diet seems to be quite
> :: neutral in terms of cardiovascular health:
> :
> : The stuff is so damn caloric. For example, consider Thai
> : Kitchen "Premium" Coconut Milk. The only ingredients in a
> : can are coconut milk and guar gum (no sweeteners).
> :
> : But a 14 oz can contains 868 calories! What does one get
> : for 868 calories? Mostly fat, which is mostly sat fat.
> :
> : Why, why drink or eat such high calorie density, low
> : nutrient density gak?
> :
> : To put this in perspective, consider a 15 oz can of
> : Libby's 100% Pure Pumpkin. A can of this pumpkin contains
> : about 140 calories, only about 16% of the calories in the
> : Thai milk gak. And the pumpkin has some real nutrients for
> : your small caloric cost: 5 g of fiber and 300% of the DV
> : of vitamin A and 7 g of protein (the same as the coconut
> : milk). And the fat in the pumpkin is not sat fat.
> :
> : So why fool around with coconut milk, much less coconut
> : oil (gak cubed)?
> :
> : Why be an apologist for this high calorie density, low
> : nutrient density gak?
>
> No need to overdo it. I use coconut milk more like a
> seasoning, about 45 g or 1½ oz for one serving. No problem.

So you get about 9 seasoning servings from a 14 oz can, huh? I
think I'll take a pass. I think I've brainwashed my mind
against the stuff. It's that CRON hobby of mine. Great fun. It
keeps stuff out of our shopping cart.

George

[Juhana Har]

George Cherry wrote:

: In other words, some kinds of gak are not as bad as other
: other kinds of gak. Are there any studies comparing honey
: and sugar?

Yes, there are. Honey is better as it has some minerals left.
It also contains live enzymes and it can slightly promote
growth of healthy bifidobacteria in colon, particularly if you
are a mouse. ;-)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search-
&DB=pubmed

--
Juhana

[Juhana Har]

George Cherry wrote:
: Juhana Harju wrote:

:: No need to overdo it. I use coconut milk more like a
:: seasoning, about 45 g or 1½ oz for one serving. No problem.
:
: So you get about 9 seasoning servings from a 14 oz can, huh?

Exactly.

: I think I'll take a pass.

It is your choice. Your are missing a great culinary
ingredient of which effect to heart disease is likely to be
pretty neutral when consumed moderately.

--
Juhana

[George Che]

"Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4bcd7mF10m49qU1@individual.net...
> George Cherry wrote:
> : Juhana Harju wrote:
>
> :: No need to overdo it. I use coconut milk more like a
> :: seasoning, about 45 g or 1½ oz for one serving. No
> :: problem.
> :
> : So you get about 9 seasoning servings from a 14 oz
> : can, huh?
>
> Exactly.
>
> : I think I'll take a pass.
>
> It is your choice. Your are missing a great culinary
> ingredient of which effect to heart disease is likely to be
> pretty neutral when consumed moderately.

Oh my, there're a lot of "culinary ingredients". Some are
better than others. "Pretty neutral" not quite optimum enough
for this "CRONie". I usually read your posts Juhana. Enjoy!

George

[outsor]

In one rodent model of lipid caused problems they are fed a
high fat diet which content is 100 percent Coconut oil as the
fat part. After feeding them this for a time the usual lipid
related problems appear and they are then a test bed for
various treatments.

[George Che]

"Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4bccboF10ot3aU1@individual.net...
> Ron Peterson wrote:
> : George Cherry wrote:
> :: The short answer is no. This is from Harvard Medical
> :: School:
> :
> : I found the following text at diseaseproof.com: All
> : tropical oils (palm and coconut) are highly saturated
> : fats. Like butter, cheese, and meat, tropical oils raise
> : LDL cholesterol and clog arteries with plaque, increasing
> : your risk of a heart attack. We use coconut oil (because
> : it is so highly saturated) in animal experiments to create
> : atherosclerotic plaque for studying heart disease in
> : animals. There are different kinds of saturated fats with
> : different impact on LDL cholesterol levels. One long-chain
> : sat fat, stearic acid, has little impact on LDL
> : cholesterol. But other long-chain saturated fatty acids,
> : like the ones that make up most of the saturated fat in
> : coconut and palm oils (known as tropical oils), do in fact
> : raise LDL cholesterol considerably. These saturated fats
> : are called palmitic, myristic, and lauric acids. They also
> : make up most of the saturated fatty acids in meat,
> : poultry, and dairy fats like milk and cheese. Other
> : saturated fats that have little impact on LDL cholesterol
> : levels include medium-chain varieties like caproic,
> : caprylic, and capic acids. A small percentage of the
> : saturated fat in coconut oil, about 10%, is made up of
> : these less harmful saturated fatty acids, but virtually
> : all the rest of coconut oil's saturated fat is made up of
> : the long-chain varieties that raise LDL.
> :
> : Coconut oil is getting promoted on the web, internet and
> : even the health food industry, claiming its healthy
> : because most of its fat is made up of medium chain fatty
> : acids (MCT), which are metabolized differently. Yes, it is
> : true that a small portion of coconut oil is MCT (C-6 to
> : C-10 fatty acids) and these do get oxidized more quickly
> : and have little impact on LDL-C levels. However, because
> : the vast majority of saturated fatty acids in coconut oil
> : are the longer chain fatty acids, C-12 to C-16 (lauric,
> : myristic and palmitic acids) it does in fact elevate
> : LDL-C. The idea that MCT fats will induce weight loss or
> : detoxify the liver is an example of alternative nonsense
> : at its highest level. Coconut oil is 92% saturated, making
> : it more saturated than butter, beef tallow, or even lard.
> : Palm oil, though it contain less saturated fat (50%), is
> : full of a type of saturated fat, palmitic acid, which
> : appears to be most conducive to heart disease.
>
> Very nice reasoning but how about this study:
>
> Cox C, Sutherland W, Mann J, de Jong S, Chisholm A, Skeaff
> M. Effects of dietary coconut oil, butter and safflower oil
> on plasma lipids, lipoproteins and lathosterol levels. Eur J
> Clin Nutr. 1998 Sep;52(9):650-4.
>
> Department of Human Nutrition, University of Otago, Dunedin,
> New Zealand.
>
> OBJECTIVE: The aim of this present study was to determine
> plasma levels of lathosterol, lipids, lipoproteins and
> apolipoproteins during diets rich in butter, coconut fat and
> safflower oil. DESIGN: The study consisted of sequential six
> week periods of diets rich in butter, coconut fat then
> safflower oil and measurements were made at baseline and at
> week 4 in each diet period. SUBJECTS: Forty-one healthy
> Pacific island polynesians living in New Zealand
> participated in the trial. INTERVENTIONS: Subjects were
> supplied with some foods rich in the test fats and were
> given detailed dietary advice which was reinforced
> regularly. RESULTS: Plasma lathosterol concentration (P <
> 0.001), the ratio plasma lathosterol/cholesterol (P=0.04),
> low density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol (P<0.001) and apoB
> (P<0.001) levels were significantly different among the
> diets and were significantly lower during coconut and
> safflower oil diets compared with butter diets. Plasma total
> cholesterol, HDL cholesterol and apoA-levels were also
> significantly (P< or =0.001) different among the diets and
> were not significantly different between buffer and coconut
> diets. CONCLUSIONS: These data suggest that cholesterol
> synthesis is lower during diets rich in coconut fat and
> safflower oil compared with diets rich in butter and might
> be associated with lower production rates of apoB-containing
> lipoproteins. PMID: 9756121
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&-
> db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9756121&query_hl=7&itool=-
> pubmed_DocSum

Are atherosclerotic plaques from one kind of gak better than
atherosclerotic plaques from another kind of gak?

: o )

George

[Juhana Har]

George Cherry wrote:

: Are atherosclerotic plaques from one kind of gak better than
: atherosclerotic plaques from another kind of gak?
: : o )

Might be. Stable plaques are better than unstable. :-)

--
Juhana

[George Che]

"Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4bcfc1F10fo0rU1@individual.net...
> George Cherry wrote:
>
> : In other words, some kinds of gak are not as bad as other
> : other kinds of gak. Are there any studies comparing honey
> : and sugar?
>
> Yes, there are. Honey is better as it has some minerals
> left. It also contains live enzymes and it can slightly
> promote growth of healthy bifidobacteria in colon,
> particularly if you are a mouse. ;-)
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&D-
> B=pubmed

I think I'll get my bifidobacteria from non-fat yogurt. Are
there any studies comparing Bush to Cheney?

.--, .--,
( ( \.---./ ) )
'.__/o o\__.'
{= ^ =}
> - <
/ \ // \\ //| . |\\ "'\ /'"_.-~^`'-. \ _ /--' ` jgs
___)( )(___

George

[George Che]

"Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4bdf5gF118lb0U1@individual.net...
> George Cherry wrote:
>
> : Are atherosclerotic plaques from one kind of gak better
> : than atherosclerotic plaques from another kind of gak?
> : : o )
>
> Might be. Stable plaques are better than unstable. :-)

LOL! Your science just trumped my silliness.

: o )

[Juhana Har]

George Cherry wrote:
: "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in message
: news:4bcfc1F10fo0rU1@individual.net...
:: George Cherry wrote:
::
::: In other words, some kinds of gak are not as bad as other
::: other kinds of gak. Are there any studies comparing honey
::: and sugar?
::
:: Yes, there are.

: Are there any studies comparing Bush to Cheney?

Which cooking method do you prefer? ;-)

--
Juhana

[George Che]

"Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4bdg8iF11d4giU1@individual.net...
> George Cherry wrote:
> : "Juhana Harju" <shantigiriorama@gmail.com> wrote in
> : message news:4bcfc1F10fo0rU1@individual.net...
> :: George Cherry wrote:
> ::
> ::: In other words, some kinds of gak are not as bad as
> ::: other other kinds of gak. Are there any studies
> ::: comparing honey and sugar?
> ::
> :: Yes, there are.
>
> : Are there any studies comparing Bush to Cheney?
>
> Which cooking method do you prefer? ;-)

Burning at the stake? TC can eat them, acrylamides and all.

[Mattlb]

Juhana Harju wrote:
> MattLB wrote:
>
> : LDL gets oxidised in the artery wall where
> : antioxidant defenses are low. Antioxidants in the oil
> : can't affect that.
>
> I usually appreciate your postings but in this issue our
> views differ.

I'm not suggesting that antioxidants in oils can't have
beneficial systemic effects, just that they can't solve the
specific problem of the LDL being oxidised once lodged in the
artery wall. LDL particles always contain antioxidants and, in
theory at least, while in the blood the free radical chain
reaction that leads to oxLDL can't happen. Outside the
bloodstream there's no way to recycle the vitamin E/beta
carotene/ubiquinol etc. so the damage can spread.

> Atherosclerosis. 2006 Feb 17; [Epub ahead of print]
>
> Postprandial anti-inflammatory and antioxidant effects of
> extra virgin olive oil.

That paper measures systemic markers of a systemic effect, and
since damage to the endothelium is a good way to initiate LDL
accumulation, reducing systemic oxidative stress is a good
thing even if it doesn't directly affect LDL.

MattLB

[Ianw]

OK, so the only oil that everyone agrees is healthy is
Olive oil then?

"George Cherry" <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@alum.mit.edu>
wrote in message
news:u6-dnebB1oVVgM3ZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com...
> The short answer is no. This is from Harvard Medical School:
>
> Q: I've read that organic coconut oil has health benefits.
> Could it improve lipid profiles if consumed every day?
>
> A: I doubt that coconut oil has health benefits, especially
> beneficial effects on lipids, and I wouldn't recommend
> that you consume it regularly.
>
> For years, fat was portrayed as unhealthful. That's not
> true. "Bad fats," such as saturated and trans fats, are bad
> for you, but "good fats" - monounsaturated and
> polyunsaturated fats - actually have health benefits.
>
> Saturated fats are a problem because they tend to increase
> LDL cholesterol levels, which in turn raises the risk of
> developing atherosclerosis and the heart disease and
> strokes that follow. True, they also tend to increase HDL
> ("good") cholesterol, but not enough to compensate for the
> bad effects. Trans fats increase LDL and lower HDL, a
> double whammy.
>
> Dietary oils - canola, corn oil, and so on - are all forms
> of fat. But unlike most other oils made from plants, coconut
> oil, as well as palm oil, are high in saturated fat.
> Saturated fat comes in several varieties; coconut oil is
> rich in one called lauric acid. Some groups and
> self-proclaimed experts are hawking lauric acid as a wonder
> food that will boost your immune system, help you lose
> weight, fight cancer - you name
> it. Needless to say, the evidence is weak to nonexistent. A
> respected nutrition textbook on our shelves does refer
> to the possibility of it having modest cavity-fighting
> properties. By contrast, there's a great deal of
> evidence that, like other saturated fats, lauric acid
> increases LDL levels.
>
> As with most dietary don'ts, there's no need to be a
> prohibitionist. If you want to enjoy an occasional piña
> colada or a Thai curry dish, go ahead. I do. Coconut milk
> and oil are delicious. Just don't kid yourself that they are
> good for you.
>
> Anthony L. Komaroff, M.D., is editor in chief of the Harvard
> Health Letter, available at www.health.harvard.edu/health.

[Mr. Natura]

IanW wrote:

> OK, so the only oil that everyone agrees is healthy is Olive
> oil then?

YES! And, the reason is simple. MUFAs are in the middle of
both SFAs and PUFAs which represent the extremes. PUFAs,
represented by the Omega-6's of process oil are generally bad
for you. With the Omega-3's being the exception.

Of course, the quality of the olive oil also does matter.

That leaves open the question why some Kooks, such as Monty,
swear up and down about the non-existent health benefits of
Coconut Oil.

My best guess is mental illness. Mental illness, along with an
extreme lack of knowledge of science, can be used to explain
the Judaic / Christian / Islamic religions quite nicely. Brain
tumors, also, comes to my mind. Together they pretty well
explain historical figures like Joan of Arc.

Mentally ill people can hear voices and can see things that
simply do not exist. People can in fact be cognitively
impaired. Wishful thinking wont keep your arteries from
clogging up.

And, mental illness as good an explanation as any as to why
these Coconut Oil Kooks are relentless at promoting their
nonsense. After all, these Kooks unlike the early church , do
NOT have the excuse of being totally ignorant as to the facts.

Mental illness is real. And, that is a fact rather than a
Joke. Plenty of people believe in magic, UFOs, and ghosts. So,
why not coconut oil?

Monty, and that science iron idiot who keeps on claiming that
Jesus was a vegetarian are nuts. There is simply no nice way
to put it.

You Kooks have my condolences.

[Mr. Natura]

George Cherry wrote:

> LOL! This will endear you to quite a few people.

What category of Kook do you fit into?

Oh! I know. :)

You are a vegetarian that eats lots and lots of eggs.

You have my condolences.

[Ron Peters]

IanW wrote:
> OK, so the only oil that everyone agrees is healthy is Olive
> oil then?

I'm not convinced. It may not be unhealthy, but it doesn't
have enough omega-3 fatty acids. Canola oil might be a better
choice. I don't think that anybody is claiming that trans-fats
aren't the most dangerous fats.

The omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids will lower LDL
cholesterol, but the mono-unsaturates are neutral for lowering
LDL cholesterol.

There are other medical ramifications that depend on the type
of fat being consumed such as bone loss amd arthritis, so fat
consumption shouldn't be treated as a one dimensional problem.

--
Ron

[Mr. Natura]

Ron Peterson wrote:

> IanW wrote:
> > OK, so the only oil that everyone agrees is healthy is
> > Olive oil then?
>
> I'm not convinced. It may not be unhealthy, but it doesn't
> have enough omega-3 fatty acids.

Really? So, you think that one oil is supposed to cover
everything?

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

No! I don't think so.

Want Omega-3s? Then eat cold water fatty fish and
flaxseed. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to
figure this one out.

> Canola oil might be a better choice.

Yeah, ... right, sure: ... All that highly refined canola
oil found in every grocery store is obviously a lot better
than extra virgin cold pressed olive oil, available from the
same store.

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

No! I don't think so.

> I don't think that anybody is claiming that trans-fats
> aren't the most dangerous fats.

Nor, are they toxic poisons. They lower HDL. That is what
makes them worst.

> The omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids will lower LDL
> cholesterol, but the mono-unsaturates are neutral for
> lowering LDL cholesterol.

So, you consume an oil in order to lower LDL Cholesterol?

Ha, ... Hah, Ha!

No! I don't think so.

> There are other medical ramifications that depend on the
> type of fat being consumed such as bone loss amd arthritis,
> so fat consumption shouldn't be treated as a one dimensional
> problem.

Who is treating what as one dimensional?

Frankly, I think YOU are!!! Based on your above comments.

You have my condolences. :)

[Ron Peters]

Mr. Natural-Health wrote:
> Ron Peterson wrote:
>
> > IanW wrote:
> > > OK, so the only oil that everyone agrees is healthy is
> > > Olive oil then?

> > I'm not convinced. It may not be unhealthy, but it doesn't
> > have enough omega-3 fatty acids.

> Really? So, you think that one oil is supposed to cover
> everything?

Oils are a mixture of different fats (fatty acids), omega-3
and omega-6 are the only essential fatty acids, so I am not
sure if adding monosaturated fats is an improvement.

> > Canola oil might be a better choice.

> Yeah, ... right, sure: ... All that highly refined canola
> oil found in every grocery store is obviously a lot better
> than extra virgin cold pressed olive oil, available from the
> same store.

The curing process for olives doesn't strike me as being
better.

> > I don't think that anybody is claiming that trans-fats
> > aren't the most dangerous fats.

> Nor, are they toxic poisons. They lower HDL. That is what
> makes them worst.

And they increase LDL.

> > The omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids will lower LDL
> > cholesterol, but the mono-unsaturates are neutral for
> > lowering LDL cholesterol.

> So, you consume an oil in order to lower LDL Cholesterol?

No, I lower my consumption of fats to keep my LDL cholesterol
low. I take an omega-3 supplement in addition to eating fish.

--
Ron

[Ron Peters]

Juhana Harju wrote:
> Ron Peterson wrote:

> : Oils are a mixture of different fats (fatty acids),
> : omega-3 and omega-6 are the only essential fatty acids, so
> : I am not sure if adding monosaturated fats is an
> : improvement.

> In spite of the huge consumption of olive oil in Crete,
> people living there are healthy. It seems that during the
> course of evolution the body has learned to process
> monounsaturated fats better than other fats.

Monounsaturated fat certainly better than saturated fats and
transfats. And, probably better than refined carbohydrates.
But, is it better than balanced PUFAs?

> : No, I lower my consumption of fats to keep my LDL
> : cholesterol low. I take an omega-3 supplement in addition
> : to eating fish.

> Replacing unsaturated fats for saturated and transfats is
> more efficient approach to lower LDL cholesterol than simply
> lowering the consumption of fats.

Is that going to be equally valid for fat intakes varying
between 30 and 90 g/day?

--
Ron

[Mr. Natura]

Ron Peterson wrote:
> Mr. Natural-Health wrote:
> > Ron Peterson wrote:
> >
> > > IanW wrote:
> > > > OK, so the only oil that everyone agrees is healthy is
> > > > Olive oil then?
>
> > > I'm not convinced. It may not be unhealthy, but it
> > > doesn't have enough omega-3 fatty acids.
>
> > Really? So, you think that one oil is supposed to cover
> > everything?
>
> Oils are a mixture of different fats (fatty acids), omega-3
> and omega-6 are the only essential fatty acids, so I am not
> sure if adding monosaturated fats is an improvement.
>
> > > Canola oil might be a better choice.
>
> > Yeah, ... right, sure: ... All that highly refined canola
> > oil found in every grocery store is obviously a lot better
> > than extra virgin cold pressed olive oil, available from
> > the same store.
>
> The curing process for olives doesn't strike me as
> being better.
>
> > > I don't think that anybody is claiming that trans-fats
> > > aren't the most dangerous fats.
>
> > Nor, are they toxic poisons. They lower HDL. That is what
> > makes them worst.
>
> And they increase LDL.
>
> > > The omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids will lower LDL
> > > cholesterol, but the mono-unsaturates are neutral for
> > > lowering LDL cholesterol.
>
> > So, you consume an oil in order to lower LDL Cholesterol?
>
> No, I lower my consumption of fats to keep my LDL
> cholesterol low. I take an omega-3 supplement in addition to
> eating fish.

So, far you have done nothing but present yourself as a
totally confused puppy.

If you think that I am going to make the case for canola oil,
you are sadly mistaken.

You are nothing but a totally confused puppy in my book. :(

You have my condolences.

If you had any grasp of the facts, you would have brought up
the Lyon Diet Heart Study long ago. For those in the know,
it is a well know fact that olive oil raises LDL. It also
well known that Montygram is known for yacking about the
dangers of oxidized cholesterol. According to Monty, only
oxidized cholesterol is dangerous. There is some method to
Monty's madness.

It is very well established that olive oil prevents
cholesterol from oxidizing, which is the rationaliztion that
is most often used to explain the health benefits of olive oil
despite higher LDL levels when compared to canola oil.

The fact still remains that the canola oil being sold in
grocery stores is total crap. I use it to oil down my kitchen
cabinets. It is precisely what you want to avoid. And, its
higher percentage of PUFAs is indeed dangerous, IMHO, despite
the fact that other grocery store oils, such as safflower oil
is a lot more dangerous.

[Ron Peters]

Alf Christophersen wrote:
> On 29 Apr 2006 19:49:16 -0700, "Ron Peterson"
> <ron@shell.core.com> wrote:

> >Monounsaturated fat certainly better than saturated fats
> >and transfats. And, probably better than refined
> >carbohydrates. But, is it better than balanced PUFAs?

> The intake of monounsaturated are not dangerous if it is
> very high, on the other side, lot of PUFA may be harmful,
> even if balanced because they contribute to lot of
> peroxidations happening if intake of antioxidants in food is
> not adequate. Herbs and spices are good sources of
> antioxidants together with vegetables and fruits.

AHA in a 1995 study has an abstract that states: Abstract
Atherogenic diets enriched in saturated, n-6 polyunsaturated,
and monounsaturated fatty acids were fed to African green
monkeys for 5 years to define effects on plasma lipoproteins
and coronary artery atherosclerosis. The monkeys fed
polyunsaturated and monounsaturated fat had similar plasma
concentrations of LDL cholesterol, and these values were
significantly lower than for LDL in the animals fed saturated
fat. Plasma HDL cholesterol concentrations were comparable in
animals fed saturated and monounsaturated fat and were
significantly higher than in animals fed polyunsaturated fat.
Thus, the monounsaturated fat group had the lowest LDL/HDL
ratio. LDL particle size was largest in the saturated and
monounsaturated fat groups, significantly larger than in the
polyunsaturated fat group. LDL particle enrichment with
cholesteryl oleate was the greatest in the animals fed
monounsaturated fat, next greatest in the saturated fat-fed
animals, and was least in the polyunsaturated fat-fed animals.
Coronary artery atherosclerosis as measured by intimal area
was less in the polyunsaturated fat compared with the
saturated fat groups, was less in the animals fed
polyunsaturated fat compared with the monounsaturated fat-fed
animals, but did not differ between the monounsaturated and
saturated fat groups. Cholesteryl ester, particularly
cholesteryl oleate, accumulation in the coronary arteries was
also similar between groups fed monounsaturated and saturated
fat but was minimal in the animals fed polyunsaturated fat. In
sum, the monkeys fed monounsaturated fat developed equivalent
amounts of coronary artery atherosclerosis as those fed
saturated fat, but monkeys fed polyunsaturated fat developed
less. The beneficial effects of the lower LDL and higher HDL
in the animals fed monounsaturated fat apparently were offset
by the atherogenic shifts in LDL particle composition. Dietary
polyunsaturated fat appears to result in the least amount of
coronary artery atherosclerosis because it prevents
cholesteryl oleate accumulation in LDL and the coronary
arteries in these primates.

--
Ron

[Mr. Natura]

Ron Peterson wrote:
> Alf Christophersen wrote:
> > On 29 Apr 2006 19:49:16 -0700, "Ron Peterson"
> > <ron@shell.core.com> wrote:
>
> > >Monounsaturated fat certainly better than saturated fats
> > >and transfats. And, probably better than refined
> > >carbohydrates. But, is it better than balanced PUFAs?
>
> > The intake of monounsaturated are not dangerous if it is
> > very high, on the other side, lot of PUFA may be harmful,
> > even if balanced because they contribute to lot of
> > peroxidations happening if intake of antioxidants in food
> > is not adequate. Herbs and spices are good sources of
> > antioxidants together with vegetables and fruits.
>
> AHA in a 1995 study has an abstract that states: Abstract
> Atherogenic diets enriched in saturated, n-6
> polyunsaturated, and monounsaturated fatty acids were fed to
> African green monkeys for 5 years to define effects on
> plasma lipoproteins and coronary artery atherosclerosis. The
> monkeys fed polyunsaturated and monounsaturated fat had
> similar plasma concentrations of LDL cholesterol, and these
> values were significantly lower than for LDL in the animals
> fed saturated fat. Plasma HDL cholesterol concentrations
> were comparable in animals fed saturated and monounsaturated
> fat and were significantly higher than in animals fed
> polyunsaturated fat. Thus, the monounsaturated fat group had
> the lowest LDL/HDL ratio. LDL particle size was largest in
> the saturated and monounsaturated fat groups, significantly
> larger than in the polyunsaturated fat group. LDL particle
> enrichment with cholesteryl oleate was the greatest in the
> animals fed monounsaturated fat, next greatest in the
> saturated fat-fed animals, and was least in the
> polyunsaturated fat-fed animals. Coronary artery
> atherosclerosis as measured by intimal area was less in the
> polyunsaturated fat compared with the saturated fat groups,
> was less in the animals fed polyunsaturated fat compared
> with the monounsaturated fat-fed animals, but did not differ
> between the monounsaturated and saturated fat groups.
> Cholesteryl ester, particularly cholesteryl oleate,
> accumulation in the coronary arteries was also similar
> between groups fed monounsaturated and saturated fat but was
> minimal in the animals fed polyunsaturated fat. In sum, the
> monkeys fed monounsaturated fat developed equivalent amounts
> of coronary artery atherosclerosis as those fed saturated
> fat, but monkeys fed polyunsaturated fat developed less. The
> beneficial effects of the lower LDL and higher HDL in the
> animals fed monounsaturated fat apparently were offset by
> the atherogenic shifts in LDL particle composition. Dietary
> polyunsaturated fat appears to result in the least amount of
> coronary artery atherosclerosis because it prevents
> cholesteryl oleate accumulation in LDL and the coronary
> arteries in these primates.

Anybody interested in the full text of this study which just
so happens to be online for FREE.
http://atvb.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/15/12/2101

Now, we can perhaps figure out what the above actually means.

[George Che]

"Mr. Natural-Health" <johngohde@naturalhealthperspective.com>
wrote in message
news:1146233051.657692.48840@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> IanW wrote:
>
>> OK, so the only oil that everyone agrees is healthy is
>> Olive oil then?
>
> YES! And, the reason is simple. MUFAs are in the middle of
> both SFAs and PUFAs which represent the extremes. PUFAs,
> represented by the Omega-6's of process oil are generally
> bad for you. With the Omega-3's being the exception.
>
> Of course, the quality of the olive oil also does matter.
>
> That leaves open the question why some Kooks, such as Monty,
> swear up and down about the non-existent health benefits of
> Coconut Oil.
>
> My best guess is mental illness. Mental illness, along with
> an extreme lack of knowledge of science, can be used to
> explain the Judaic / Christian / Islamic religions quite
> nicely. Brain tumors, also, comes to my mind. Together they
> pretty well explain historical figures like Joan of Arc.

LOL! This will endear you to quite a few people. Where do
atheists and Buddhists fit in your diagnosis?

> Mentally ill people can hear voices and can see things that
> simply do not exist. People can in fact be cognitively
> impaired. Wishful thinking wont keep your arteries from
> clogging up.
>
> And, mental illness as good an explanation as any as to
> why these Coconut Oil Kooks are relentless at promoting
> their nonsense. After all, these Kooks unlike the early
> church , do NOT have the excuse of being totally ignorant
> as to the facts.
>
> Mental illness is real. And, that is a fact rather than a
> Joke. Plenty of people believe in magic, UFOs, and ghosts.
> So, why not coconut oil?

The magic of coconut oil delivered by ghosts riding in UFOs?
Monty's on their delivery route, right?

> Monty, and that science iron idiot who keeps on claiming
> that Jesus was a vegetarian are nuts. There is simply no
> nice way to put it.
>
> You Kooks have my condolences.

Your compassion is commendable.

[Juhana Har]

MattLB wrote:
: Juhana Harju wrote:
:: MattLB wrote:
::
::: LDL gets oxidised in the artery wall where
::: antioxidant defenses are low. Antioxidants in the oil
::: can't affect that.
::
:: I usually appreciate your postings but in this issue our
:: views differ.
:
: I'm not suggesting that antioxidants in oils can't have
: beneficial systemic effects, just that they can't solve the
: specific problem of the LDL being oxidised once lodged in
: the artery wall. LDL particles always contain antioxidants
: and, in theory at least, while in the blood the free radical
: chain reaction that leads to oxLDL can't happen. Outside the
: bloodstream there's no way to recycle the vitamin
: E/beta carotene/ubiquinol etc. so the damage can spread.
:
:: Atherosclerosis. 2006 Feb 17; [Epub ahead of print]
::
:: Postprandial anti-inflammatory and antioxidant effects of
:: extra virgin olive oil.
:
: That paper measures systemic markers of a systemic
: effect, and since damage to the endothelium is a good
: way to initiate LDL accumulation, reducing systemic
: oxidative stress is a good thing even if it doesn't
: directly affect LDL.
:
: MattLB

OK. Thanks for clarification.

--
Juhana

[Juhana Har]

Ron Peterson wrote:
: Mr. Natural-Health wrote:
:: Ron Peterson wrote:
::: IanW wrote:

:::: OK, so the only oil that everyone agrees is healthy is
:::: Olive oil then?
:
::: I'm not convinced. It may not be unhealthy, but it doesn't
::: have enough omega-3 fatty acids.
:
:: Really? So, you think that one oil is supposed to cover
:: everything?
:
: Oils are a mixture of different fats (fatty acids), omega-3
: and omega-6 are the only essential fatty acids, so I am not
: sure if adding monosaturated fats is an improvement.

In spite of the huge consumption of olive oil in Crete, people
living there are healthy. It seems that during the course of
evolution the body has learned to process monounsaturated fats
better than other fats.

:: So, you consume an oil in order to lower LDL Cholesterol?
:
: No, I lower my consumption of fats to keep my LDL
: cholesterol low. I take an omega-3 supplement in addition to
: eating fish.

Replacing unsaturated fats for saturated and transfats is more
efficient approach to lower LDL cholesterol than simply
lowering the consumption of fats.

--
Juhana

[Mr. Natura]

Alf Christophersen wrote:

> By the way, About canola oil and lies on the net, please see
> this paper: http://www.anma.com/mon92.html

By the way, the canola oil sold in most grocery stores is
still crap because it is not a health grade of oil.

That crap is highly processed. All the nutrients have been
removed. They are not cold pressed. Nor do these manufactures
give a rats ass about rancidity.

The equivalent of that canola oil crap in olive oil would be
buying light olive oil from Wal-Mart.

Olive oil is not healthy by magic. Nor, is canola oil.

You can buy a health grade of olive oil in most grocery
stores. You cannot say the same for canola oil or blends of
canola and olive oil. Convenience, is a major factor in eating
a healthy diet.

Just thought that you might want to know.

[Ron Peters]

Mr. Natural-Health wrote:
> Ron Peterson wrote:

> "The monounsaturated fat diet (primary source of fat, oleic
> acid-enriched safflower oil) contained over 70% of the fatty
> acids as oleic acid. The polyunsaturated fat diet (primary
> source of fat, safflower oil) contained over 70% of the
> fatty acids as linoleic acid."

> I don't recall 70% of olive oil being MUFAs.

Olive oil is 13% palmitic acid, 3% stearic acid, 71% oleic
acid, 10% Linoleic acid(omega-6), and 1% alpha linolenic acid
(omega-3).

--
Ron

[Mr. Natura]

> Ron Peterson wrote:
> > Alf Christophersen wrote:
> > > On 29 Apr 2006 19:49:16 -0700, "Ron Peterson"
> > > <ron@shell.core.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >Monounsaturated fat certainly better than saturated
> > > >fats and transfats. And, probably better than refined
> > > >carbohydrates. But, is it better than balanced PUFAs?
> >
> > > The intake of monounsaturated are not dangerous if it is
> > > very high, on the other side, lot of PUFA may be
> > > harmful, even if balanced because they contribute to lot
> > > of peroxidations happening if intake of antioxidants in
> > > food is not adequate. Herbs and spices are good sources
> > > of antioxidants together with vegetables and fruits.
> >
> > AHA in a 1995 study has an abstract that states: Abstract
> > Atherogenic diets enriched in saturated, n-6
> > polyunsaturated, and monounsaturated fatty acids were fed
> > to African green monkeys for 5 years to define effects on
> > plasma lipoproteins and coronary artery atherosclerosis.
> > The monkeys fed polyunsaturated and monounsaturated fat
> > had similar plasma concentrations of LDL cholesterol, and
> > these values were significantly lower than for LDL in the
> > animals fed saturated fat. Plasma HDL cholesterol
> > concentrations were comparable in animals fed saturated
> > and monounsaturated fat and were significantly higher than
> > in animals fed polyunsaturated fat. Thus, the
> > monounsaturated fat group had the lowest LDL/HDL ratio.
> > LDL particle size was largest in the saturated and
> > monounsaturated fat groups, significantly larger than in
> > the polyunsaturated fat group. LDL particle enrichment
> > with cholesteryl oleate was the greatest in the animals
> > fed monounsaturated fat, next greatest in the saturated
> > fat-fed animals, and was least in the polyunsaturated
> > fat-fed animals. Coronary artery atherosclerosis as
> > measured by intimal area was less in the polyunsaturated
> > fat compared with the saturated fat groups, was less in
> > the animals fed polyunsaturated fat compared with the
> > monounsaturated fat-fed animals, but did not differ
> > between the monounsaturated and saturated fat groups.
> > Cholesteryl ester, particularly cholesteryl oleate,
> > accumulation in the coronary arteries was also similar
> > between groups fed monounsaturated and saturated fat but
> > was minimal in the animals fed polyunsaturated fat. In
> > sum, the monkeys fed monounsaturated fat developed
> > equivalent amounts of coronary artery atherosclerosis as
> > those fed saturated fat, but monkeys fed polyunsaturated
> > fat developed less. The beneficial effects of the lower
> > LDL and higher HDL in the animals fed monounsaturated fat
> > apparently were offset by the atherogenic shifts in LDL
> > particle composition. Dietary polyunsaturated fat appears
> > to result in the least amount of coronary artery
> > atherosclerosis because it prevents cholesteryl oleate
> > accumulation in LDL and the coronary arteries in these
> > primates.
>
> Anybody interested in the full text of this study which just
> so happens to be online for FREE.
> http://atvb.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/15/12/2101
>
> Now, we can perhaps figure out what the above actually
> means.

The problem with dealing with Kooks is that they are lazy SOBs
that just love to waste your time.

The following quote from the above study in the Methods
section of this research paper clearly points out the fatal
flaws of this paper.

"The monounsaturated fat diet (primary source of fat, oleic
acid-enriched safflower oil) contained over 70% of the fatty
acids as oleic acid. The polyunsaturated fat diet (primary
source of fat, safflower oil) contained over 70% of the fatty
acids as linoleic acid."

They did not use olive oil nor canola oil. These morons used
safflower oil for both the MUFA and PUFA groups.

Safflower oil is positively bad for your heath. Reading any
further would be a total waste of my time.

[Ron Peters]

Mr. Natural-Health wrote:

> Anybody interested in the full text of this study which just
> so happens to be online for FREE.
> http://atvb.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/15/12/2101

> Now, we can perhaps figure out what the above actually
> means.

Palm oil doesn't come out to good, coconut oil or palm
kernel oil might have been better choices having significant
amounts of lauric acid which has a lower melting point than
palmitic acid.

The high oleic acid safflower oil has about the same amount of
oleic acid as olive oil but it also has 10% linoleic acid.
Normal safflower oil is 13% oleic acid and 78% linoleic acid.

None of oils has alpha linolenic acid (omega-3), so omega-3
effects are ignored.

--
Ron

[Mr. Natura]

Ron Peterson wrote:
> Mr. Natural-Health wrote:
>
> > Anybody interested in the full text of this study which
> > just so happens to be online for FREE.
> > http://atvb.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/15/12/2101
>
> The high oleic acid safflower oil has about the same amount
> of oleic acid as olive oil but it also has 10% linoleic
> acid. Normal safflower oil is 13% oleic acid and 78%
> linoleic acid.

Oh, really?

"The monounsaturated fat diet (primary source of fat, oleic
acid-enriched safflower oil) contained over 70% of the fatty
acids as oleic acid. The polyunsaturated fat diet (primary
source of fat, safflower oil) contained over 70% of the fatty
acids as linoleic acid."

I don't recall 70% of olive oil being MUFAs.

I do not believe in playing academic word games. This was an
academic exercise for the eggheads who act like they will
live forever.

Before they got finished screwing around with that horrible
safflower oil, I am totally confident that it was rancid and
totally devoid of the nutrients normally found in a good
health grade of olive oil. Tell me Kook, was that doctored
safflower oil dark green, golden brown, or clear in color?

I do not consume pure PUFAs straight out of a test tube. I buy
my oil from a store. I prefer dark green cold pressed extra
virgin olive oil. All olive oil is positively NOT the same.

Just thought that you might want to get real for a change.

[Mr. Natura]

Ron Peterson wrote:
> Mr. Natural-Health wrote:
> > Ron Peterson wrote:
>
> > "The monounsaturated fat diet (primary source of fat,
> > oleic acid-enriched safflower oil) contained over 70% of
> > the fatty acids as oleic acid. The polyunsaturated fat
> > diet (primary source of fat, safflower oil) contained over
> > 70% of the fatty acids as linoleic acid."
>
> > I don't recall 70% of olive oil being MUFAs.
>
> Olive oil is 13% palmitic acid, 3% stearic acid, 71% oleic
> acid, 10% Linoleic acid(omega-6), and 1% alpha linolenic
> acid (omega-3).

The problem with this Kook is that he thinks olive oil is just
a matter of food science and can be made in the lab out of
safflower oil. :(

I think you guys are nuts and I don't mind saying so. :)

YES, olive oil is about 70% MUFAs which makes it even better
than I remembered. :)

[Mr. Natura]

Alf Christophersen wrote:
> On 1 May 2006 06:11:11 -0700, "Mr. Natural-Health"
> <johngohde@naturalhealthperspective.com> wrote:
>
> >That crap is highly processed. All the nutrients have been
> >removed. They are not cold pressed. Nor do these
> >manufactures give a rats ass about rancidity.
>
> If you like to pay for it, you may buy cold pressed rape
> seed oil (LEAR) from Askim, Norway (around 70 kr a 1/2 l)
> (20$ pr litre) Other brands are about 12 NOK pr litre (1.8$
> pr litre) And none are Canola seeds but European breeds made
> by selection.
>
> And, erucic oil is bad for you, if you are a rat. (Not
> otherwise)

Even the Wal-Mart Grocery store carries a large variety of
olive oil to choose from.

For canola oil you have to go to a health food store, which is
precisely my point.

Brook road Wal-Mart is within walking distance from me. Good
Foods Grocery store is across the James River in the West end
of town, some 25 minutes aways. Canola is simply not
convenient.

[Alf Christ]

On 29 Apr 2006 19:49:16 -0700, "Ron Peterson"
<ron@shell.core.com> wrote:

>Monounsaturated fat certainly better than saturated fats and
>transfats. And, probably better than refined carbohydrates.
>But, is it better than balanced PUFAs?

The intake of monounsaturated are not dangerous if it is very
high, on the other side, lot of PUFA may be harmful, even if
balanced because they contribute to lot of peroxidations
happening if intake of antioxidants in food is not adequate.
Herbs and spices are good sources of antioxidants together
with vegetables and fruits.

[Alf Christ]

On 30 Apr 2006 14:30:32 -0700, "Ron Peterson"
<ron@shell.core.com> wrote:

>AHA in a 1995 study has an abstract that states: Abstract
>Atherogenic diets enriched in saturated, n-6 polyunsaturated,
>and monounsaturated fatty acids were fed to African green
>monkeys for 5 years to define effects on plasma lipoproteins
>and coronary artery atherosclerosis. The monkeys fed
>polyunsaturated and monounsaturated fat had similar plasma
>concentrations of LDL cholesterol, and these values were
>significantly lower than for LDL in the animals fed saturated
>fat. Plasma HDL cholesterol concentrations were comparable in
>animals fed saturated and monounsaturated fat and were
>significantly

A complicating factor is that oils also contain other
components. At least European rape seed oils contain also
components that lower cholesterol production.

By the way, About canola oil and lies on the net, please see
this paper:

http://www.anma.com/mon92.html

[Alf Christ]

On 1 May 2006 06:11:11 -0700, "Mr. Natural-Health"
<johngohde@naturalhealthperspective.com> wrote:

>That crap is highly processed. All the nutrients have been
>removed. They are not cold pressed. Nor do these manufactures
>give a rats ass about rancidity.

If you like to pay for it, you may buy cold pressed rape seed
oil (LEAR) from Askim, Norway (around 70 kr a 1/2 l) (20$ pr
litre) Other brands are about 12 NOK pr litre (1.8$ pr litre)
And none are Canola seeds but European breeds made by
selection.

And, erucic oil is bad for you, if you are a rat. (Not
otherwise)

[Alf Christ]

On 2 May 2006 18:18:42 -0700, "Mr. Natural-Health"
<johngohde@naturalhealthperspective.com> wrote:

>For canola oil you have to go to a health food store, which
>is precisely my point.
>
>Brook road Wal-Mart is within walking distance from me. Good
>Foods Grocery store is across the James River in the West end
>of town, some 25 minutes aways. Canola is simply not
>convenient.

I prefer the neutral taste of commercial rape seed oil, so I
use the cheap one. And now my cholesterol is about 4.2 against
previously 5.1 before exchanging from soy to rape seed. With
olive oil it would probably have increased to about 5.5