Some questions about low carb dieting

[shandyAndy]

hi
I'm thinking of starting a low carb diet full time but first i have some questions that need answering.

First of all. I need to be convinced that low carb dieting really is healthier than vegan or high card dieting. I've read "Life without bread" , Dr Atkins book and the blood type diet book. By far the most convincing is the "life without bread" book. However it doesn't answer all my questions.

Firstly, the majority opinion among the health community, for whatever reason, is that the rural chinese diet, japenese, okinawan and to some extent the meditarian diet are the healthiest. I can see how perhaps that people who have lived for long periods in these countries may have well and truly adapted to their diets and thus find them healthy. The problem i have is that, these diets supposedly produce low cancer rates, low heart disease and a long life. This can be prooved quite easily by studying the elderly in these areas and their life long diet.

There are no elderly people around today who have followed a low carb diet all their lives to give a measure of how healthy their life has been. At least not in any reasonable amount. Why did the paleolithic people die mostly in middle age? Did they all commit ritual suicide or all happen to be coincidentally killed around that time (little far fetched)?

Although "Life without bread" is fairly convincing, i cannot objectivly critisize it purely because i am not a medical nutritionist with the knowledge and ability to see the flaws in any of the authors arguments. Its all too easy to convince somone who desperately wants to lose weight that it can be done so easily and much more healthily by eating the food we love.

Apart from that, all these nutritionists who back the lc diet talk of agriculture as the downfall of the human race. Perhaps we are supposed to adapt to this diet, and do our children a favour. Look at all the things we have achieved since agriculture first started. They would of not been possible without agriculture.

There are other problems with meat too. Mad cow disease and foot and mouth. Seems like were at a much greater risk.

Anyone use the lc diet who is physically active here? I practice martial arts and i like to work out in the gym and i need the energy to do so, anyone have experience with that?

Ok, some more simple questions now. On the "life without bread" diet can i eat as many vegetables as i want or do they count towards my daily bread count thing? Can i consume as much milk, cream and cheese as i want or does that count too?

[Natrushka]

Andy, welcome to the forum.

To answer two of your questions; Yes, there are many people who follow LC plans who are very active. I invite you to take a look at my Gym Log (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22629&perpage=15&pagenumber=5) in the Exercise forum for one example. We also have a resident Body builder following a LC plan, Trainerdan who co-moderates the Exercise forum (http://forum.lowcarber.org/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=12) , have a looksee when you get the opportunity.

As for convincing you that LC is healthy, only you can do that. Of course you need the proper information. I suggest chekcing out the link at the top of every page "Low Carb Studies" for some emperical evidence. I also suggest you get yourself a copy of "Protein Power". The Eades go into great detail explaining the how's and why's of LCing and it's benefits for your health. It is by far the most scientific of the LC plans; there is a brief synopsis of it here (http://www.lowcarb.ca/atkins-diet-and-low-carb-plans/protein-power.html) . Neanderthin (http://www.lowcarb.ca/atkins-diet-and-low-carb-plans/neanderthin-diet.html) is another good read if you're looking for evidence that this is the way we were meant to eat. FYI, many of the LC plans are described here (http://www.lowcarb.ca/atkins-diet-and-low-carb-plans/index.html) in detail with sample menus.

Happy reading :)
Nat

[agonycat]

Only you can convince yourself that this diet is for you.

Pretty much all of us can go on about how great we are feeling, how our blood chemistry has changed for the better since being on this way of life and how easy the weight melts off.

We can tell you how much more energetic we are feeling and a since of well being. However in the end it is really a personal choice that no one should make for you, nor debate you on the issue of vegan vs low carb. We are not medical or nutritional professionals, we only know of our experiences while being on this way of life. On this forum is listed studies done by doctors, and research centers, there are success stories of those that have lost the weight and how they feel.

"Why did the paleolithic people die mostly in middle age", why do most of us die? Old age, medical problems, climate changes, animal attacks, wars, I could go on but I think you get the point. I wouldn't say they died because of what they were eating, that would be silly now wouldn't it, I mean there are a lot of americans today dying because of what they eat, but is that the overall cause of death?

Nat has pointed out some very solid reading for you. Best thing we do here is arm people with enough solid information that they can make the right choice for them.

Good luck to you!

[gwilson38]

Hi Andy..not sure if I can answer your questions but I will let U know how I feel and thats WONDERFUL. I have never felt better in my adult life. Im 37 and have lived with a chronic condition since I was a kid [ fibromyalgia] I did years of yo-yo dieting and diet pills none of which kept my weight off or my health good. I was skeptical at 1st too but now I have been maintaining for over 3-4 months now and each week it gets easier to believe this is the WOL for me. As for being active. Before low-carbing because of my medical condition I could hardly walk upstairs. Im now off my meds, I workout 4-5 times a week AND I belong to a competitive dance group. I dont feel like by the way I eat I am missing anything...in fact I feel I have added to my whole life experience.

[shandyAndy]

Thanks for your replies. I guess your right about the reading but there is still that problem of being properly objective when i'm not an expert. As for books, has anyone read "life without bread"? If so, are there any better books than that in terms of evidence? The book is very convincing and uses a lot of scientific theory and evidence (which i assume is true) to back up its claims.

Also which is the best plan to follow? Do they vary much? Has anyone tried the life without bread plan? Which plan is the least restrictive to follow? Thanks again.

p.s. can anyone explain the healthy rural chinese japenese thingy ( i know they are short but they live a long time)?

[Natrushka]

Originally posted by shandyAndy
As for books, has anyone read "life without bread"? If so, are there any better books than that in terms of evidence? The book is very convincing and uses a lot of scientific theory and evidence (which i assume is true) to back up its claims.


I suggest, again, picking up Protein Power and/or Protein Power Lifeplan. They both include the scientific data behind LCing and PPLP discusses the Asian / rice / high carb issue (which incidentally doesn't hold up to close scrutiny when rates of heart disease and stroke are examined)

Nat

[razzle]

Hi Andy,

Some informational sources you might look at on the net are

http://www.beyondveg.com/cat/paleodiet/index.shtml

http://www.lowcarbretreat.com/josh_yelon/lowcarb_med.html

http://ajdubre.tripod.com/Health/SoftSciDietaryFat0.html

http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm

I eat only free-range beef and organic fertile eggs from uncaged hens. Some fascinating info on beef (and sources in US for it) is at

http://www.eatwild.com/index.html

Ditto Nat on reading PPLP. That'll all keep you busy for a couple weeks! ;)

I exercise, sometimes a lot, sometimes moderately. Personally, I have found a difference in performance--or perhaps, more accurately, in feel. I can run 10K, but I do feel pretty worn out doing so. I recover quickly, my times are the same as before, but I suppose the fact that you move through the ATP/glycogen stores SO quickly as a LC eater and start burning fat quickly helps to explain that. I've realized I feel better if I do intervals instead. Weightlifting, this has only helped. I put on muscle much more easily, perhaps from all the high-quality protein I eat (without guilt!)

Oh yes, and the Chinese rates of heart disease are as bad for men as the US rates; for women....Chinese heart disease rates are the highest in the world.

[Karen]

p.s. can anyone explain the healthy rural chinese japenese thingy ( i know they are short but they live a long time)?


I think you will find that any culture that follows seasonal eating will be healthier. The relationship to food is healthier because they grew it and understand it's value. They respect and understand the power of sugar, using it for celebratory occasions.

NA culture takes almost everything for granted. You can stuff yourself full of anything, any time of the day here, regardless of the season.

Drastic imbalance requires drastic measures to create balance.

None of us was an "expert" when we started, but we came to understand through our own experience and the experience of others the realm of possibilities and what works. Because of our imbalance LC is more than a diet, it's a way of life. Some people have serious food addiction problems, and most realize that they are addicted to carbohydrates when they stop using them. Working any LC plan is simple in theory, but it's not easy.

On the front page, left hand column, there is a link to the synopsis of different LC plans.

How do you choose a plan? Lots of whole grains and fruit? White bread and candy? Lots of skim milk and granola? Processed foods? Ice cream and cake? Low fat dieting?

You can only get well again by swinging far to the other side and eliminating most of it. What made you fat in the first place?


Karen

[Heeligan2]

When I first became interested in this WOE I went in search of the "other side of the story" to try and reach an objective decision.

I found the following site to be very helpful in giving a scientific analysis of the various low carb diets and it also appears to have an objective point of view:

http://www.theidealdiet.com/index.html

The author is an MD who gradually became convinced that a moderately low-carb diet is the healthiest over all. I also have the book and she does a newsletter as well -- all are very helpful on the medical issues.

As far as all the paleolithic people dying at middle age - I believe the Eadeses address this question in their books -- definitely worth reading to answer your health questions!!

[Andy Davies]

Thanks Heeligan 2 - a useful link.

ShandyAndy, sooner or later, you have to stop researching the theory and put it to a practical test.

Just pluck up the courage to test everything you are worried about - cholesterol, blood pressure, weight, whatever else you are concerned about, and go for it! Try the diet for a week. Test the things you can easily check yourself. If things look promising, you could extend the trial. Get some professional "after" tests done. If it works, continue with it. If it doesn't, then give it up. But either way, come back here and tell us what happened. If you spend all your time getting bogged down in theory and not trying anything in practice, how much are you really going to learn?

Incidentally, "Eat Fat and Grow Slim", published by Dr Richard Mackarness in 1958 and 1975, is a book I recommend you to read. It provides a considerable amount of evidence and proof, and should allay even some of your fears. And he's British, by the way. Ran the first obesity clinic ever in the UK (at Basingstoke).

Andy

[Kent]

The follow link is about the peoples of China and Okinawa and the following text is from the site:

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/food_in_china.html

"Before we throw up our hands and decide that no conclusions can be made about diet and health in China, let us turn our attention to the mixed peoples of Okinawa, situated equidistant from Hong Kong and Tokyo. The average lifespan for women in Okinawa is 84 (compared to 79 in American), and the island boasts a disproportionately large number of centenarians. Okinawans have low levels of chronic illness—osteoporosis, cancer, diabetes, atherosclerosis and stroke—compared to America, China and Japan, which allows them to continue to work, even in advanced years. In spite of Okinawa’s horrific role in World War II, as the site of one of the bloodiest battles of the Pacific, Okinawa is a breezy, pleasant place, neither crowded nor polluted, with a strong sense of family and community and where the local people produce much of what they consume.

And what do Okinawans eat? The main meat of the diet is pork, and not the lean cuts only. Okinawan cuisine, according to gerontologist Kazuhiko Taira, “is very healthy—and very, very greasy,” in a 1996 article that appeared in Health Magazine.19 And the whole pig is eaten—everything from “tails to nails.” Local menus offer boiled pigs feet, entrail soup and shredded ears. Pork is cooked in a mixture of soy sauce, ginger, kelp and small amounts of sugar, then sliced and chopped up for stir fry dishes. Okinawans eat about 100 grams of meat per day—compared to 70 in Japan and just over 20 in China—and at least an equal amount of fish, for a total of about 200 grams per day, compared to 280 grams per person per day of meat and fish in America. Lard—not vegetable oil—is used in cooking.

Okinawans also eat plenty of fibrous root crops such as taro and sweet potatoes. They consume rice and noodles, but not as the main component of the diet. They eat a variety of vegetables such as carrots, white radish, cabbage and greens, both fresh and pickled. Bland tofu is part of the diet, consumed in traditional ways, but on the whole Okinawan cuisine is spicy. Pork dishes are flavored with a mixture of ginger and brown sugar, with chili oil and with “the wicked bite of bitter melon.”

Weston Price did not study the peoples of Okinawa, but had he done so, he would have found one more example to support his conclusions—that whole foods, including sufficient animal foods with their fat—are needed for good health and long life, even in the Orient. In fact, the Okinawan example demonstrates the fallacy of today’s politically correct message—that we should emulate the peoples of China by reducing animal products and eating more grains; rather, the Chinese would benefit by adding more strengthening animal foods to their daily fare.

Proponents of the low-fat school argue that the Chinese cannot afford to devote more land to animal husbandry. Consider, however, the fact that the Chinese grasslands, concentrated in the semi-arid lands of the north and west, cover nearly forty percent of China, an area three times that under cultivation. Such lands do not support crop production but are highly suited for grazing purposes—for the production of meat and milk—and many Chinese have proposed that efforts be made in this direction. The Beijing Food Research Institute, however, has opposed such measures. Its director, Wang Qing, who is credited with turning China away from dairy development, contends that cow’s milk is a food for the elite, and dairying much too expensive for China to pursue.20 He argues that the Chinese cannot consume dairy products because they are lactose intolerant—but even the lactose intolerant can consume dairy products in limited amounts21, especially fermented dairy products. Meat and dairy products from land that currently is not being used would provide just those nutrients now lacking in the typical Chinese diet—protein, calcium and fat soluble vitamins. Under Qing’s direction, however, China has opted for increased cultivation of valuable agricultural lands in soybeans, in order to provide factory-produced, mineral-blocking, protein-poor soymilk to the populace."

[Andy Davies]

Hi Kent - a very impressive piece, which on the whole supports all of our own beliefs.

I have another reference which I must dig out and reproduce here, that also supports the same conclusions.

As an aside, the Director of the Beijing Food Research Institute has a gloriously appropriate name, don't you think?

Andy

[shandyAndy]

Sorry to drag this old message up again but i have one thing to add. Back to my original questions about the okinawans.....There is a book called "The okinawa study". The study is very large and according to the authors does not suggest any of what was said about eating so much pork.

Now, i know they are small and skinny and i do now believe the paleo diet is the right one BUT they do live long and healthy lives on the diet suggested in the aformentioned book! Any one read an decent article debunking that book?

Thanks

[Kent]

Hi ShadyAndy,

The Okinawan Study book is nothing short of a bunch of lies. The author may be vegetarian, I can't remember at this moment and didn't buy the book. I read it in the library. As I recall the correct title is The Okinawan Diet.

Go to the link at The Weston A. Price Foundation in my post above for the truth.

Kent :wave:

[JimR-OCDS]

Well, I was stationed in Okinawa for a year, when I served in the Marines, back in 1970. I didn't pay attention to diet while over there, I was only 19 years old and lean and mean. :D One thing however, is that the climate there is not pleasant during the summer. It is hot and very humid. Also, Okinawain people are very hard working people. The work they did was amazing! Perhaps, another fact for their long-life span might be that before the Japanese took the island back, Okinawians paid no or very little taxes. The US government paid for just about everything. So, if you want better health, pay less taxes! :D

[captxray]

When are you going to just go for it? You seem to be asking the same questions you started out asking about a year ago.

[Janeydi]

Can anyone tell me what the life expectancy for Paleo man/woman was? Their height? And how we know that?

Thanks, Amy

[captxray]

Depending on where they lived, there was a slight difference in age. However, on the average, the lifespan was about 35 years. You were pretty venerable by 40...and just plain ancient by 50. Now, if we take out childbirth for mom's and children, accidental deaths, and deaths by various non-autoimmune diseases (like absessed teeth, cuts that turned gangrenous, etc.), they lived to be pretty darn old...at least as old as most of the averages in modern civilization. And, remember, these folks didn't have "modern medicine" to keep them going. How do they know this? As we age, our bone structures change...bones become less dense, get more gnarley, teeth become worn down, adults have different structures of the pelvic area (in both men and women), the jaw changes shape as we age, the amount of adult teeth we have by age 25...lots of skeletal changes happen...and there is radiocarbon dating based upon the half life of isotopes in organic material, to figure out about when they roamed the earth. We can tell by looking at skeletons from mummies in Egypt, for example, what types of food they ate, whether or not they used stone grinders, if they had arthritis, diabetes, if they were obese, what type of operations on the head and body, if they were ever wounded with spears or arrows, or falling from heights, even, in some cases, whether or not they were murdered. Forensic specialists, zoologists, physiologists, radiologists, anthropologists, and many others have givin archeologists and paleontologists lots of new techniques to determine those things. You'd be mind-boggled at what we can tell from a jawbone, for example...or even a piece of one.

[captxray]

About the height of paleo people...it appears, from what we have gathered of fairly complete skeletons, and leg bones (which are often carted off by animals) that people began to shrink with the advent of agriculture. The greater the amount of grain in the diet, the smaller they got...not that they shrank that much. People weren't nearly as tall as they are now. Modern medicine is not the only reason we have grown taller in the last few hundred years. Diet has got something to do with it, and medicine, and vitamins, and supplements, and preservatives, and additives, etc. are all considered factors. There is nothing that great about getting taller, mind you, and no great survival advantage, evolutionarily that I've ever heard of. Our brain is what makes us the most formidable animal on the face of the Earth.

[Janeydi]

Thanks!

Amy

[shandyAndy]

hi
yeah i know. I have tried the diet in the past with success, although i didn't try it long enough for it to have an effect on my energy levels. Also, i don't think i tried it well enough...See, i'm at university and its hard to follow such a strict eating plan when surrounded by friends who want to do anything but eat healthily.

I'm pressured into drinking (alcohol) mostly and then that leads to the inevitable take away food and then cravings; which are hard enough to get past the first time you start. Stopping and starting seems to take it out of me. I think i lose some of my resistance to the old foods and seem to get tired and put on weight all hthe more quicker.

That's why i like looking for alternatives and checking and re-checking the conclusion i came to about healthy diets is the right one; i'm also paranoid when i have too much free time on my hands... The other healthy alternative seems to be an almost vegan diet. This would allow me to drink. I'm currently testing it out. I don't feel too good though and i'm putting on weight. It's kinda annoying.

I start the research thing again and come to the same conclusions: paleo diet. I start me diet and try to stay comitted. Then social pressures make me drop it and i have to start again. Living with 7 people also means they're very aware of my eating habits and they just love to take the mick out of my so called fad dieting which they all distrust.

Most of them think i've tried like 7 different diets in the last year. They don't understand it's just the same diet but i can't keep it up. Maybe i'm too young to be worrying about health and diet but no-one likes being over weight and tired at any age.


I think you'll find more and more young people doing low carb and wotnot in future years. Seems the middle age diseases and problems are hitting people at younger and younger ages due to our ignorance and un knowing parents allowing kids to eat rubbish.

I think in the back of my mind that if i had complete faith that paleo dieting was the only healthy way to live to avoid ill health and obesity then it might help stay comitted and focussed on not throwing it away on one night on the town... Maybe thats another reason why i have to keep reasuring myself.

Thanks for your help by the way...

Andy

[HSmom]

I'll be blunt. If you are basing your lifestyle and dietary choices on being allowed to drink, you have a problem larger than whether or not to go "low carb".

BTW, no one is pressured to drink; you chose it. Granted, there are those who are uncomfotable with people who abstain. Those people are typically problem drinkers themselves. Abstainers make them uncomfortable - they might have to look at their own problem.

Speaking from experience,

[shandyAndy]

hey
I never thought about it like that.... I always assumed it was just the student life style thing. Everyone i know drinks and i always feel very pressurised. Now you point out that they might have drinking problems and that i might for having a problem with not drinking, it kinda makes sense.

One problem, ever tried to dance when your sober? I can do it but you have no excuse for dancing like a loser the next morning :)

Btw, i never have a problem abstaining when i'm not going out. There is a social connection there, is that still alcoholism? When i have gone out sober, i always get pissed off with all the drunk people surrounding me, i find it hard to find somthing to drink too - considering i don't drink caffene; water makes it very obvious i'm sober.. Probaly being too self concious.

Thanks anyway- food for thought....

Andy

ps. Please, everyone ignore my stats, first of all i quickly filled them out ages ago and second of all they poorly reflect reality these days- i never update them.

[captxray]

Have you ever thought of what a positive message you are giving your peers, some of whom may feel similar to you, if you do pick up the glass of water and abstain from the alcohol? If your "friends" are offended, or make fun of you for being sober, it may be time to look for new friends.

[shandyAndy]

i think you're getting the wrong impression. I live with them in a privately rented house. We're very good friends, best of friends. They expect me to drink with them, if i don't i get called an idiot or get told its just a fad. The idea of sitting in a pub with them and not drinking is very tough. First of all, it can get boring and second of all they'll nag and nag me!

I can't leave these friends, i live with them...I also happen to like them. I do susspect one of them of having a drinking problem actually and he is the worst one to be with when your sober. He doesn't agree with hte concept of going out and being sober. If i suggested to any of them that they have drinking problems they'd all laugh at me and tell me im speaking bollocks....

I feel like its a no win situation. Might not sound tough, but it feels tough!

[captxray]

ShandyAndy...I think I understand where you're coming from...It's called "Peer Pressure" and it's a very powerful thing with everybody . Still, friends who have expectations of other people's behavior have a problem. The problem isn't yours, unless you make it so...I know it's tough to make a stand, but people with integrity and a sense of honor make stands against things all the time. Ghandi made a solid stand and won a revolution without being a violent man, himself. Now, I know Ghandi was one of the greatest people of the twentieth Century, but he can be an excellent example to follow.

Why do you care if they call you an "Idiot," if you really don't want to drink, and truly consider them to be your "best friends?" Friends call each other names, and it shouldn't mean that much because they accept you, just the way you are...don't they? Just tell them, "I really don't want to drink." If they are truly your "best friends," they might not understand, but they will let you be the person you are. If they nag you about it, take a stand and tell them to stop, or you will leave the pub. What I'm reading, here is "VICTIM," all over your explanation. Is that what you are?...A Victim, with no control over your own life? You're not the only person in the world who doesn't want to drink. I haven't had a drink in 15 years...I don't plan on ever touching the stuff again. My son-in-law is a wine maker and is always bragging about his wine and bringing it around. He lives and breathes wine! I don't touch the stuff. He might think I'm a little wierd, but oh, well! I happen to like him, a lot, too. The second comment you made about it being boring without drinking...very lame excuse...sorry, but it is. Does that mean that there is absolutely nothing else you could do with your time, but drink and act stupid? Take a book and read, if you must be with these people at the pub. I'm not making light of your situation, believe me. I know how hard it is. I've been there. But, your own self-respect is at stake. Don't try to tell them not to drink. If they want to, that's their business. Your business is different. That way you can tell them, "I don't tell you how to live your life. Don't expect me to live my life just the way you want me to." I hope I have said something that may help. If I didn't, then don't pay any attention to what I've said. That's the beauty of being your own person.

[kjturner]

Well, shandyandy, you can always drink Michelob Ultra--it's very low carb....

[Toahine]

Paleolithic people did not all die in middle-age. The AVERAGE lifespan was about 30, but the main factor in bringing it down that low was high childhood mortality. Obviously there was no modern-day medical care in the Paleolithic, so a fairly high percentage of people didn't make it to adulthood due to injury or illness. If you survived the usual childhood mishaps and diseases, you had an excellent chance of living to a ripe old age, almost certainly in better health than many folks of comparable age today.
Honestly, this misconception about life expectancy is so widespread it is hard for me to believe so many people don't understand the mathematics of averages. An AVERAGE life span of 30 does not in any way indicate that 30 is the maximum age attainable, or that 30 is "old", or even that most people died at the age of 30. AVERAGES, people!!!!

[Cavemate K]

shandyandy,

I understand what you're going through. When I was in college I got an enormous amount of pressure from my friends to drink whnever we went out. I am also keenly aware of the fact that it's not that simple to just give them an ultimatum or get new friends altogether. It eventually became pretty clear to me that deep down inside the main reason they were so insistent on my drinking with them is because they knew what they were doing was unneccessary and they didn't want to be the only one in the group to be taking that route. If you keep standing your ground they will be annoyed with you and mock you for a while, but eventually they'll be forced to deal with it and move on.
On another paleo note, it definitely does lead to cravings for bad food. I used to dring red wine frequently with the rationale that it was quasi-paleo-acceptable and that it had antioxidant benefits to it. However, the ice cream, candy bars, potato chips, etc. that seemed to inevitably follow certainly did not! :D

K

[Nancy LC]

Paleolithic people did not all die in middle-age. The AVERAGE lifespan was about 30, but the main factor in bringing it down that low was high childhood mortality. Obviously there was no modern-day medical care in the Paleolithic, so a fairly high percentage of people didn't make it to adulthood due to injury or illness. If you survived the usual childhood mishaps and diseases, you had an excellent chance of living to a ripe old age, almost certainly in better health than many folks of comparable age today.
Honestly, this misconception about life expectancy is so widespread it is hard for me to believe so many people don't understand the mathematics of averages. An AVERAGE life span of 30 does not in any way indicate that 30 is the maximum age attainable, or that 30 is "old", or even that most people died at the age of 30. AVERAGES, people!!!!
Yeah, now that we've uncovered the paleo census/birth/death/medical records we know for sure how long people lived... :roll: