Low carb = Low Seratonin = depression

[smithtl]

I have low carbed for 2 months with minimal weightloss success. That is fine. The problem is my mental state. I am depressed and cannot get back to my cheerful self unless I have some carbos. I read Potatoes Not Prozac and see myself described there in detail.

Is there a Potatoes Not Prozac - Sugar Sensitive board or forum on this site??

Thanks

[razzle]

the science in PnP is not 100% dead on, but if it works for you anyway, congratulations on finding something helpful!

[grahamgirl]

Hi. I too have trouble with depression. I crave carbs when unhappy, but they don't really make me feel any better.

I've had success with LC, and that's helped the depression a great deal. If you'll post your diet in a journal, you might find that someone kind and knowledgeable will notice something that's preventing weight loss for you.

I hope you can find some answers. Best wishes to you.

[nancyb]

I suffer from depression and take Celexa ( same dosage for 2+ years, now). I have found that since I starte lc-ing 3 months ago, my outlook on things is better. The positive feelings that I have about myself are greatly improved. I get a real boost from being in charge of at least one part of my life. I feel accomplished.
Have a terrific Tuesday,
Nancy

[gwilson38]

Im sorry smithtl U arent feeling well. I have fibromyalgia and have had problems with depression for yrs. It has been my experience tho that low-carbing has been beneficial to me because I am off my meds now. What about trying melatonin?

[Lessara]

I will be honest, I got depressed as well after a month of LCing. With a counsillor I found how carbs have changed my emotions and how I became depended on them. So I did a few things. One I talk to my doctor and upped my meds. Second thing was I added 5 carbs, saw what happened and added 5 more. I still lose but I feel these two things have brightened my day. Who wants to let emotion or depression control you? Let alone Carbs!
Oh... the carbs I eat are in veggies or dairy only.
I wonder if carbs act in a medicinal way like prozac. Maybe that's why I didn't need meds that much before. Just a thought.

[razzle]

Lessara, carbs DO work in a medicinal way. It's likely some of us have a shortage of either serotonin or serotonin receptors, and maybe a shortage of beta-endorphins, as well. Any carb will temporarily help that condition, which is exactly why we turn to sweets and snacks when we feel sad or stressed. (If you turn to food when you're happy and excited, the serotonin problem is probably not yours!) The problem is, after the "help" of carbs, there is short-term (the "crash") and long-term costs, as well. There's some evidence, for instance, that long-term sugar abusers have great wastelands of non-functioning serotonin receptors, just as cocaine addicts do. After one or two years of LCing, will the brain repair itself? They don't know, and as far as I'm aware, there is no research going on for sugar/carb addicts, but for cocaine addicts it appears that no, the brain does not repair itself. Thus the probability of recidivism into addiction is very high.

Maybe PnP will help people, but what I fear is that it's the addiction calling to us: "oh a plan where I can eat lots of carbs--great!" For me, and I suspect for many of us, trying to abstain from sugar and processed grains forever is the better way to treat the mood part of carb addiction. At least our brains and our habits have a chance to find other paths to happiness, ideally natural ones that carry less risk to our health.

[Sh'ra]

Smith,
I did PnP and SARP (the new book) for awhile. I found that I could not eat what was recommended and still lose weight. I also found that eating so many carbs fed my addiction, even when it was the "good" carbs. However, many people have had success with that program. I doubt it is here because it is not a "low carb diet." If you're interested in more about it, the website for PnP is www.radiantrecovery.com. It has a lot of forums and other support.

Most times, low carb will actually help to lift depression, because, as PnP states, depression is not just caused by blood sugar, or by seratonin, or by beta endorphin; it is caused by an imbalance of all three. I would encourage you to begin a journal and show people what you are eating. Many times, it's just a matter of shifting things around a bit.

Also, are there particular times of the day when you feel more depressed? Knowing that could help, too, as different foods affect us in different ways.

I found PNP to be very interesting, but as I said, not helpful for me with weight loss, which just fed my depression. However, much of the information I learned from it was helpful in how I now do low-carb dieting.

Shalom,
Sh'ra

[legoodwin]

One thing is for sure, we're all different. I have responded beautifully to Atkin's and it has totally lifted the fog and slowness. If you are not losing you have several ways to look at it, insulin is not the problem for you something else is, or you might not be following the diet quite correctly--misinterpretation of something, or you may have a medical problem like medications that interfere, thyroid problem etc. I'd go see an endocrinologist who is Atkin's friendly (now there's a task!), it was incredibly revealing for me. Expensive yes. Worth every little penny.

[Deb]

In the book "Your Fat Can Make You Thin" by Calvin Ezrin, he discusses how low-carbing is the Way to Go....he also discusses how lack of serotonin reserves in our brains leads us to eat carbs like crazy trying to replace what we don't have through carbs. The problem with that is that when we eat carbs we only get a small surge of serotonin that makes us feel good for a little while. His solution is to request your doctor for a small dose (25-50mg) per day of an older antidepressant medication called trazadone. Apparently this medication, builds reserves of serotonin in the brain relieving depression. He believes that this can also help alleviate carbohydrate cravings as well. I haven't tried it but it sounds like it could work.

All the best

Deb

[darhmabum]

Hi,

I take Prozac, Wellbutrin and Buspar. When I first started Prozac the doctor prescribed Trazadone in a very small dose to use as a sleeping aid. I hated it. The Trazadone made me feel hung over all the next day so I stopped taking it.

I've been on Prozac and Buspar for 3 years and just started Wellbutrin a few months ago. I still don't really sleep through the night, but I've developed all kinds of coping mechs so insomnia isn't completely ruining my days.

[fiona]

LC = Low Seratonin = depression

was certainly not the case for me. I rebelled against all the anti-depressants many many years ago - that was my own personal decision. I am not recommending it to anyone who needs to be on medication.

Coping Mechanisms etc helped me a lot over the years but the almost "instantaneous" relief when I started LCing was brilliant. Yes, carbs definitely lift me up but they also bring me down just as sharply and the addiction was just as dangerous as any of the drugs I had spent years avoiding - I didn't know then that there was anything called carb-adiction. I blindly accepted a lot of mis-information propagated by the low-fat lobbyists as healthy eating.

Winter has always been my worst time. This Winter has been my first Winter since beginning LC and although I did get depressed I can honestly say it has been better than previous years.

{darhmabum: I still don't really sleep through the night . .} I don't even try anymore. Some of us were made to take short naps when we need them rather than conform to the accepted norm - rather like a baby does. A sweet picture of a friend's toddler with his head flopped into his dinner plate comes to mind. Babies take a nap when they need it, whereever they are and to hell with the dinner mummy thinks is more essential!! I find half an hour's laydown in the middle of the day is as important as lunch!

{sh'ra: Most times, low carb will actually help to lift depression, because, as PnP states, depression is not just caused by blood sugar, or by seratonin, or by beta endorphin; it is caused by an imbalance of all three.} Yes, that has been my experience. Balance is the key. Learning to be active followed by periods of rest and relaxation in just the right amounts. Keeping those scales from tipping in either direction is a continuous on-going journey.

{legodwin: I have responded beautifully to Atkin's and it has totally lifted the fog and slowness.} Isn't it brilliant? Me too. I only realised I had been in the fog after it lifted. As for the slowness ... I used to believe that I must be stupid, now I understand it was the carbs I was eating slowing me down. I do wish someone had been around me to BULLY me into LCing years ago!!

There is sooooo much more I could say on this subject but time for some exxxxxxxercise. That helps a lot!
Shalom Khavareim
Take care.

[Raquel]

Better than PNP is "The Schwarzbein Principle", low-serotonin state is explained there in detail and one DOES NOT have to eat potatoes or any of those high glycemic carbs to be able to produce sufficient serotonin for normal moods. When I first heard about that book I didn't want to bother with it because I wondered what else could possibly be written about LC that I hadn't already read but since I plan to become a nutritionist and hated not knowing what others were talking about I read it, and I was WRONG! Even though I don't intend to follow everything she recommends, for the most part her book made a lot of sense to me and filled in some blanks other books had left.

For those of you who may be interested, there is a section in these forums for people who are following Schwarzbein, just pull down the menu on the Forum Jump bar and you will find it.

[deb3]

I thought low serotonin caused carb cravings and that going on LC diet plan would stabilize the serotonin?

[jalmada]

... being around beautiful ladies seems to also have a beneficial aspect to my depression and that *perhaps* there is a boost in many key brain chemicals when we are flirting :D

Between Atkins, Wellbutrin and flirtation as a young man is prone to do in the spring... things seem to be getting better all around :spin:

Jon "The eternal flirt" Almada

[Raquel]

I understand why you are confused, I was too years ago when I read a book called "The Serotonin Solution" as it advised to eat carbs in a certain way though, which kept me from losing weight. I never could stick to the most basic rule of the book (to eat a small amount of carbs frequently either alone or with just a little of tryptophan containing protein as there was a delicate balance to keep) during those days, in part b/c of my hypoglycemia plus I needed sufficient protein to feel OK, and also b/c some of the foods that I were permitted in that plan triggered sugar cravings in me which defeated the whole purpose. It took several years of learning what worked FOR ME to adjust my eating, which I'm still doing. Sugar was not my only "enemy" but wheat and other refined starches, which I always craved when I stopped sugar, was just as bad. I always felt better on the Atkins diet (not recently though, things have changed!) because it certainly eliminated all of those problem foods and stabilized my hypoglycemia.

Another reason why some other people see improvement in their depression when LCing is that the higher protein intake supplies necessary amino acids (ie. tyrosine, glutamine, etc.) to produce OTHER brain chemicals such as DOPAMINE and NOREPINEPHRINE, the lack of which also causes depression. Yet, we humans tend to think that we are all the same and often foget the need to approach any health/fitness/dietary advice INDIVIDUALLY.

Yet another reason is that people who have been in a low-fat diet, especially for a long time, have been deprived of essential fatty acids also extremely important for the production of yet other brain chemicals, one of them GABA which fosters a feeling of calmness. There is proof that meals heavy in fat can even produce a "numb" emotional feeling which many of us seek during times of very stressful/painful events. Hence our traditional craving for chocolate: it can raise serotonin (though temporarily) and boost GABA all in one shot, too bad it's also fattening!

Another interesting thing I learned many years ago is the role of serotonin in SAD (seasonal affective disorder) which a lot of people experience during winter which causes people to crave carbs, feel tired, and gain weight during the cold months. The book "The Hibernation Response" offered a plan to counter that by eating the right types of foods in the morning or the evening and taking certain supplements to help obtain the desired results. The authors insisted that one SHOULD NOT seek to lose weight during the cold months as our bodies would refuse to let go of the fat (STALLERS BEWARE!) and I see that being definitely a factor with many yet nobody else in any other book I've read mentions that.

[Katya789]

Hi!

I hear what you are saying... describes my experience exactly

there are some great alternative mood enhancers... (in addition to a good therapist and perhaps prozac, zoloft, etc ...

I purchased a light box and use it every day for about 20 minutes.. it really improves my mood for the entire day.

I also recommend aerobic exercise to get the endorphins flowing

Yoga/Meditation are also helpful... ;)

The thing to keep in mind is that refined sugars and refined carbs are NOT your friend... they will make you miserable in the long run...

Good luck to you sweetie !! :wave:

[deb3]

Thanks to both of you! This is great information. I thought once I learned about Serotonin that it was the end of my research, but I now realize I have more to look into. I to have hypoglycemia and struggling with my carb cravings I have found that sugar and sugar substitutes are BIG NO-NO's for me. I am trying to psych myself up to do this but I am not having much luck. I am going to get my 10 yo daughter tested for allergies and I believe it would probably help me too. We shall see!

Thanks Again!

[fiona]

It's "flirting" for you. It's actively looking for and consciously making an effort to see the positive in ANY given situation. I can be fine for months and then give in to focussing on one negative thought that popped into my head. I have to watch it all the time and find the "sunshine".

Everyone has their own unique triggers to what starts off the depression and what makes it better. I've learned to focus on anything and everything that helps make it better - a walk, singing (people run when I start singing - but who cares - it makes me feel better!). ;)

A light-box, absolute minimal amounts of wheat, and complete elimination of sugars, and refined carbs has also helped me a great deal.

Take care.

[jalmada]

I'm a lifelong depression patient and recently was put on Wellbutrin ~150mg/day - Tried 300 and it made me dizzy as hell...

I went back on my 3'rd round of Atkins about the same time and the weight is peeling off slowly but surely...

I will say this - I'm chasing a PhD in nano-technology and computing science and my thinking has certainly cleared up... I've been on Zoloft and other similar meds before, but the Wellbutrin has really been a different medication for me - very few side effects noted - mainly, dry skin in certain patches...

I hear you on the "negative thought" hitting you out of the blue - That is exactly how my depressions would kick in - some minor incident would occur and would propel me into the abyss - Now I seek out company and laughter when I sense the start of the ride - anything but to go back into that again...

I wonder sometimes at the connection between carbohydrates and depression - When I have dumpted the weight before, I felt really good and never had depressive episodes... Perhaps it is the effect of feeling good and such... Not a very scientific bit of data, but perhaps other people have made the same connection...

Jon

[Voyajer]

I thought this was a good topic to resurrect. It has been proven that the amino acid tryptophan is a precursor to seratonin. People mistakenly have believed that carbohydrates raise tryptophan levels, but in reality it would have to be a pure form of carbohydrate containing zero protein as these block tryptophan. In reality, carbohydrates in general do not raise tryptophan because they are mixed with other macronutrients. In other words, going on an increased carbohydrate diet isn't going to make your seratonin any better. Rather it is probably due to the sheer pleasure of eating these foods that releases endorphins and makes us feel better.

Tryptophan however can be taken as a supplement. This might be preferable to taking SSRIs (such as Prozac, Trazodone, Celexa). But I'm not recommending that anyone stop their medication who is currently taking these drugs.

Anything you do that makes improvement in your body is likely to raise your spirits and aid in lessening depression. Low-carbing is such a thing.

Points about foods and seratonin were taken from:

september 27/vol15/no2/2000 nursing standard 47
The serotonin theory

One early theory (Fernstrom and Wurtman 1971)
suggested that the consumption of carbohydrate
alters the balance of amino acids in the
blood, which in turn causes an increase in serotonin,
a chemical in the brain. Serotonin has a
number of important functions, including the
regulation of sleep, appetite and impulse control.
It also has a key role in the elevation of
mood, so if carbohydrates can boost serotonin
levels they might improve mood.
Wurtman and Wurtman (1989) went on to
develop the theory and argued that carbohydrates
might help to relieve depression. It has
also been proposed that people suffering from
seasonal affective disorder (SAD or the ‘winter
blues’) and premenstrual syndrome might have
low serotonin function, which makes them feel
low. People suffering from these ailments often
report a craving for carbohydrates and it is
suggested that this is the body’s attempt to
self-medicate (Wurtman and Wurtman 1989).
However, there is a flaw in the carbohydrate
and serotonin theory, which was highlighted in
a recent review by Benton and Donohoe (1999).
More than 30 human studies were examined to
determine the amino acid profile in the blood
after consuming meals varying in carbohydrate
content. It was found that only when the
protein component of the meal was less than
2 per cent did the resulting amino acid profile
favour a rise in serotonin levels in the brain.
Benton and Donohoe (1999) highlight that
even in foods considered to be high in carbohydrate,
such as bread and potatoes, 15 per cent
and 10 per cent of calories respectively come
from protein. This means that there are very few
instances when the level of carbohydrate in a
meal is high enough to have a direct impact on
serotonin levels.
Carbohydrate craving itself is a misnomer.
Foods that are commonly craved, particularly by
women (Drewnowski et al 1994), are chocolate,
ice cream, doughnuts, cakes and biscuits. These
foods all taste sweet and so are perceived as
being rich in sugar – a carbohydrate. But, in fact,
most of the calories from these foods are actually
provided by fat. In addition, these foods all
contain enough protein to negate any effect of
carbohydrate on brain serotonin. For example,
about 8 per cent of calories in ice cream and
about 5 per cent in chocolate are from protein.
So there must be another reason why these
foods are commonly craved.

The pleasure of eating could be enhanced by
opioids such as â-endorphins, which are
released in the body as the food is eaten. Drugs
that mimic opioids, such as morphine, have been
shown to increase food intake, whereas drugs
such as naloxone, which block opioid receptors,
reduce food intake (Drewnowski et al 1994).
Perhaps craving for highly desirable foods is
simply down to the pursuit of pleasure. Eating
foods we enjoy is likely to improve mood, just as
doing anything we enjoy is likely to cheer us up.

[DrByrnes]

This is an excellent supplement to use to quickly boost serotonin levels. We also use in natural therapies to correct obsessive/compulsive behaviours, e.g., anorexia and bulimia.

Nutritionally, carbs do raise serotonin levels, but only for a short while then the level drops off, leading to more craving for carbs. The "permanent fix" is to eat more good fats and proteins.

You may want to read Julia Ross' book "The Diet Cure" for more info on this.

[DuPont]

5htp has helped me tremendously with my depression. I strongly recommend taking it, as well as increasing your intake of food that contains the amino acid tryptophan.

[Voyajer]

Thanks Dr. Byrnes for the clarification. I didn't mean to say that carbohydrates didn't raise serotonin, they do. But according to Wurtman (see below), it would have to be a "single protein-free high-carbohydrate meal" due to protein's counter-effects. This is obviously not a good way to eat and as you said is only a temporary "fix". As Wurtman later discussed, this may make us crave carbohydrates for the serotonin "high", but as you said, this creates a cycle of more cravings. I just didn't want the low-carbers here to think they were missing a benefit by not eating carbohydrates.

Also, thanks for the information on 5-HTP (the converted form of Tryptophan). Since it is a natural therapy, I'm assuming 5-HTP is available in health food stores. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Two recent studies have shown that another source of Tryptophan and 5-HTP raising foods is Alpha-lactalbumin Whey Protein (see Research/Media Forum). Best Nature's Isopure is one source of this protein.

American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol 28, 638-647,

REVIEW ARTICLES

Control of brain monoamine synthesis by diet and plasma amino acids
RJ Wurtman and JD Fernstrom


The rates at which monoaminergic neurons in rat brains synthesize their neurotransmitters depend on the availability of the amino acid precursors tryptophan (for serotonin) and tyrosine (for dopamine and norepinephrine). The administration of tryptophan, the injection of insulin, or the consumption of a single protein-free high-carbohydrate meal all elevate brain tryptophan levels and, soon thereafter, the levels of serotonin and its major metabolite 5-hydroxyindole acetic acid. The addition of protein to the meal suppresses the increases in brain tryptophan and serotonin, because protein contributes to plasma considerably larger amounts of the other neutral amino acids (e.g., leucine, phenylalanine) than of tryptophan, and these other amino acids compete with tryptophan for uptake into the brain. The elevation of brain tyrosine (by injection of the amino acid or consumption of a single 40% protein meal) accelerates brain catecholamine synthesis, as estimated by measuring brain dopa accumulation after decarboxylase inhibition, or brain catecholamine accumulation after inhibition of monoamine oxidase. These observations suggest that serotonin- and catecholamine-containing brain neurons are normally under specific dietary control.

[Voyajer]

Oh! And in case anyone is wondering how 5-HTP may affect weight loss, see below:

American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol 56, 863-867, 1992

ORIGINAL RESEARCH COMMUNICATIONS


Eating behavior and adherence to dietary prescriptions in obese adult subjects treated with 5-hydroxytryptophan

C Cangiano, F Ceci, A Cascino, M Del Ben, A Laviano, M Muscaritoli, F Antonucci and F Rossi-Fanelli
3rd Department of Internal Medicine, University of Rome, La Sapienza, Italy.

Previous observations have shown that oral administration of 5- hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) without dietary prescriptions causes anorexia, decreased food intake, and weight loss in obese subjects. To confirm these data over a longer period of observation and to verify whether adherence to dietary restriction could be improved by 5-HTP, 20 obese patients were randomly assigned to receive either 5-HTP (900 mg/d) or a placebo. The study was double-blinded and was for two consecutive 6-wk periods. No diet was prescribed during the first period, a 5040-kJ/d diet was recommended for the second. Significant weight loss was observed in 5-HTP-treated patients during both periods. A reduction in carbohydrate intake and a consistent presence of early satiety were also found. These findings together with the good tolerance observed suggest that 5-HTP may be safely used to treat obesity.

[obxpoohmom]

I'm with Jalmada, I think flirting is an excellent natural mood lifter, lol. I'm from the beach and that seems to be a way of life down here. Maybe we should start a board for flirters, some place to go to flirt and lift our moods on those blah days, lol. Just a suggestion.

[Voyajer]

To those wanting to try 5-HTP, this is information on dosage:

http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/3/4/271.html

For information on safety:

http://www.5-htp.net/Safety.asp