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Dodger
Tue, Oct-18-05, 17:24
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-10-16-protein-diet-hook_x.htm

VANCOUVER, B. C. — Now the latest mantra is: Beef up your lean protein.
A growing body of evidence, including research presented here Sunday, shows that eating enough fish, chicken, lean meat, low-fat dairy, beans, nuts or other protein-rich foods helps people feel full longer. And scientists are searching for the biological reasons for the increased satiety.

The latest findings might help explain why people report feeling ravenous after eating only a lettuce salad for lunch. It also could offer insight into why some dieters lose weight without getting as hungry on programs that allow ample protein, such as the Zone Diet and the South Beach Diet, and Weight Watchers, in which the typical member selects 20% to 22% of calories from protein. The Atkins diet is often high in both protein and fat.

Researchers discussed protein's role in controlling hunger at the annual meeting of NAASO, the Obesity Society, an organization of 1,900 health professionals involved in obesity research, treatment and prevention. NAASO stands for the North American Association for the Study of Obesity.

'Not the end-all, be-all'

Scientists from Adelaide, Australia, reported on a study in which they followed 57 obese people for 16 weeks. Half were on a diet with 34% of calories from protein, 29% from fat and 37% from carbohydrates. The other group followed a high-fat diet with 18% of calories from protein, 45% from fat and 37% from carbs. Both groups ate about 1,400 calories a day.

Overall, more people who ate the high-protein diet reported feeling more satisfied and less hungry for three hours after their meals than did dieters who ate high-fat meals. After two months, both groups averaged a 20-pound loss because they consumed the same number of calories.

"A high-protein meal will sustain people far longer than a high-fat meal or a high-carbohydrate meal," says Manny Noakes, senior dietitian with CSIRO Human Nutrition, a government research organization in Australia.

"Protein is not the end-all, be-all. It's a subtle effect, but it's an effect that can help if you are actively dieting," she says. "Protein can provide a certain edge that will allow you to remain on a calorie-restricted diet for longer."

Other studies support the protein-fullness connection. Researchers at the University of Washington in Seattle had 19 people follow an eating program that provided 30% of calories from protein and 20% from fat with no calorie restrictions. The participants ate an average of 441 calories a day less on the 30%-protein diet than they did on the 15%-protein diet they were on before the program began. They dropped 11 pounds in 12 weeks.

"Protein definitely reduces appetite both in the short term and the long term," says lead researcher Scott Weigle of the University of Washington School of Medicine.

But, Weigle adds, "we need to have good clinical trials that look at possible side effects of high-protein diets, especially on the kidneys and on calcium."

Walter Willett, chairman of the nutrition department at the Harvard School of Public Health, agrees. "It's a promising direction, but before we go whole hog, even a lean whole hog, we should be careful because we've been down diet roads before that we didn't want to go down.

"It's going to be really important to study the higher protein intake in longer-term studies lasting at least a year or two."

In fact, a government-financed study has begun that will follow dieters for two years on different eating regimens that vary the daily percentages of proteins, fats and carbs.

For now, the Institute of Medicine has concluded that there is no clear evidence that high-protein intake increases the risk of kidney stones, osteoporosis, cancer, coronary artery disease and obesity.

Searching for the mechanism

Researchers are trying to understand how protein works to increase the feeling of fullness. Noakes and colleagues tested levels of the hunger hormone ghrelin but didn't find significant differences between the levels in participants on the high-protein diet or the high-fat diet. So they're examining other appetite-regulating hormones. "The reason it's important to know the mechanism is because we might be able to develop new protein foods or supplements or identify natural protein foods that have higher levels of satiating effects," Noakes says.

Other scientists are trying to unscramble this same mystery. Protein probably works on several mechanisms in the body, says Harvey Anderson, a professor of nutritional sciences at the University of Toronto.

There also might be a practical reason for protein's satiety value, says Barbara Rolls, a Penn State nutrition researcher. People tend to think meals are more substantial if they contain a meat or other protein, she says.

So how much is enough? The most recent recommendations from the Institute of Medicine offer a range of 10% to 35% of calories from protein. "That's not a license to chow down on fatty meats," Rolls says. "The Food Pyramid suggests more low-fat dairy and fish, and beans to increase protein."

K Walt
Tue, Oct-18-05, 17:46
"That's not a license to chow down on fatty meats,". . .


I have such a license.

: )

CindySue48
Tue, Oct-18-05, 18:04
Still no clue....while I am glad they are starting to encourage more protein....the recomended levels are WAY too low....it's the fat, not the protein that is important! Until they "get it" we'll continue to see obesity, heart disease, diabetes, alzheimers, et all continue to increase!

mio1996
Tue, Oct-18-05, 18:18
Beef up your lean protein.They lost me as soon as they said "lean." Thye just don't get it <<<shaking head>>>:(

ysabella
Tue, Oct-18-05, 19:24
You know, I'm four months pregnant; since being pregnant I have really found it difficult to eat lean meat. Steak tastes like liver (which I don't like), that sort of thing.

But fat? Bring it!! Fatty parts of steaks and roasts are delicious. I make chicken wings several times a week, and big pots of soup with bacon, beans, and veggies. And butter on everything! :yum:

Hey, the kid will form a fabulous brain from all these available fatty acids. And if it's what my body wants, I don't see why I should fight it.

ItsTheWooo
Tue, Oct-18-05, 21:38
The more carbs you eat, the more important protein is to feeling full.
This is something I've figured out for myself, anyway.

For example, say I take my "cereal breakfast" - that horrible, scary thing which I love so much but often something goes awry and I wind up shaking with hypoglycemia.

I've figured out fat does not protect me very well from a hypo. Including more nuts, to the same amount of carbs, does not lessen the likelihood of a crash & hunger much. However - if I eat an ounce of lean protein, I not only am almost certain to be protected from a bad crash, but my hunger is less extreme. (Cutting down on milk - leaving it in my bowl - helps a lot to; I react terribly to milk even though it is a pretty good source of pro and not too high carb).

Eating copiously from lean protein, however, does produce carb symptoms for me. Not as bad as carbs... but if I REALLY REALLY overdo it, I get that feeling I get from carbs where I get hungrier the more I eat. One night I pigged out on turkey breast, following a very long day of not much food and intense physical activity. This was more meat than I've probably ever eaten in a LONG time... 10, 12 ounces, a ridiculous amount. Anyway, I was shaking and ravenous shortly after eating. I don't know what else could have done it. Carbs consumed were lower than normal, if anything at all. I know they say protein isn't supposed to spike insulin, and the sugar made from protein balances etc, but it just doesn't work that way for me. I think my sugar goes too high and so does my insulin which causes problems. For awhile now I've gotten nondescript carbo symptoms from lean protein meals, but this was the first time I got an unmistakable "sugar low". I did not eat enough carbs for it to be carb related... bit of sugar free cranberry, carrots, normal stuff for me.

So the ticket is, if you're eating carbs, ALWAYS pair it with protein to make it stick longer (and a little fat for balance). By eating protein, you force the body to raise sugar-making hormones, which will protect you from the insulin surge of the carbs. It will keep things balanced and you won't get a hypo.
If eating not many carbs, do not maket he mistake of thinking protein is the base of your cals because protein does effect your sugar a lot more than fat. Protein is better than carbs, but not better than fat if you are glucose intolerant. If you have measurable sugar sensitivity & a tendency toward glucose intolerance/reactive hypo (like I do) this can prove counter productive. I often get intense hunger following high protein with low fat and have had sugar symptoms before (like that night with the sugar low from turkey meat). I rearely ever get symptoms like I do with carbs but they ARE there, even if minor. Fat never ever has done that to me. If I pig out on, say, nuts, the worst thing that happens is I feel horribly full and maybe a little sluggish from it.

Nancy LC
Tue, Oct-18-05, 22:03
I had an experiment the other night where I ate something totally not good... surgary... very, very bad. Anyway, I followed it up with a couple of turkey sausages hoping I could ward off the blood sugar crash. No good. I woke up at 2 am absolutely ravenous. I had to snorfle down 2 helpings of cottage cheese to get it under control.

dasanipure
Tue, Oct-18-05, 22:32
I had to snorfle down 2 helpings of cottage cheese to get it under control.

Sorry, this is a bit irrelevant, but I love the word snorfle. I think it's a really good description of how I eat soft, mushy foods. Snorfle. Snorfle. :D Sorry, that makes me laugh. Back to serious blood sugar issues...

I know that if I don't pair protein with fat, it's almost always going to make me hungry. I wish it weren't so, since I'm rather sensitive to the "calories matter" phenomenon, but that's the way it is. I've got to ask myself: would I rather eat tons of protein with little fat, loose faster, but always be hungry...or should I eat enough fat, loose a little slower, but be on an even keel, blood sugar wise. The latter is a lot more tasty.

dannysk
Tue, Oct-18-05, 22:36
<<<"It's going to be really important to study the higher protein intake in longer-term studies lasting at least a year or two." >>>

Gee, What happened to the 30 years needed to determine if Atkins was safe ??

danny

eepobee
Tue, Oct-18-05, 23:21
A growing body of evidence, including research presented here Sunday, shows that eating enough fish, chicken, lean meat, low-fat dairy, beans, nuts or other protein-rich foods helps people feel full longer.
low-fat dairy helps people feel full longer than full-fat dairy? someone please show me the evidence of this.

Trinsdad
Wed, Oct-19-05, 04:24
low-fat dairy helps people feel full longer than full-fat dairy? someone please show me the evidence of this.


Hehe you beat me to it... Fat Phobic Media...

Michelle H
Wed, Oct-19-05, 07:02
But, Weigle adds, "we need to have good clinical trials that look at possible side effects of high-protein diets, especially on the kidneys and on calcium."

This article - Dietary protein intake and renal function

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-2-25.pdf

Concludes

"While protein restriction may be appropriate for treatment of existing kidney disease, we find no significant evidence for a detrimental effect of high protein intakes on kidney function in healthy persons after centuries of a high protein Western diet."

Regards,

Michelle

ItsTheWooo
Wed, Oct-19-05, 07:04
I'm assuming they are talking about energy-equal amounts of fat and protein... so it is not relevant to compare a serving of low fat cheese (which has like 60 cals) to a serving of full (with 120). My low fat cheese has 60 cal, 9 grm pro... full has 120 cal and 7 grm pro. The low fat cheese is higher in volume because of less fat.

The question is, would eating 120 cal of my LF cheese (12 grm pro & 5 grm fat) make me more full than 120 cal of full fat (7 grm pro and 10 grm fat)? Speaking personally, I think I do better with fat than protein, but protein helps keep my blood sugar stable on carbs.

ItsTheWooo
Wed, Oct-19-05, 07:10
I had an experiment the other night where I ate something totally not good... surgary... very, very bad. Anyway, I followed it up with a couple of turkey sausages hoping I could ward off the blood sugar crash. No good. I woke up at 2 am absolutely ravenous. I had to snorfle down 2 helpings of cottage cheese to get it under control.

Hi Nancy
Yea, this trick only works when talking reasonable carb amounts (for me) that are a tad high and could or could not produce a hypo depending on experiences in the day (that range of 20-30). When I get into that "moderate high range" sometimes I'm fine, sometimes I'm not (say if I suddenly do a bit of activity, it's more likely I'll crash cuz my body has too high insulin to keep sugar levels up).

Once I'm getting to "cheat territory" (50ish carbs that area), I'm going to get a hypo most likely no matter what I do. I would have to eat a tremendous amount of protein and fat to make any difference, and it still wouldn't completely mitigate the crash.

Nancy LC
Wed, Oct-19-05, 07:47
I suspect you're right. It was just a huge overload of carbs... uh... a refeed! Yeah, that's the ticket. :p

Dodger
Wed, Oct-19-05, 08:37
It is difficult to find many natural protein sources that don't come with nice flavorful fat. The turkeys and chickens that are being raised for their low-fat breast meat don't seem very natural to me.

eepobee
Wed, Oct-19-05, 10:12
The question is, would eating 120 cal of my LF cheese (12 grm pro & 5 grm fat) make me more full than 120 cal of full fat (7 grm pro and 10 grm fat)? Speaking personally, I think I do better with fat than protein, but protein helps keep my blood sugar stable on carbs.since the full fat cheese has only 2 carb calories (.5 grams) and the low-fat cheese has 27 carb calories (7 grams), i'm guessing that the full fat would be more satiating.

Nancy LC
Wed, Oct-19-05, 10:59
Try it and report back!

I've tried to equate fat/protein to satiety in the past and I haven't had any luck. There are some low fat things I find totally great for getting full and staying there, and some aren't.

Three eggs, kind of moderate fat, but only about 275 calories, keeps me full for a long, long time. Where as the same amount of cottage cheese seems to wear off very quickly. Meat seems to hang in there quite awhile for me, even low fat meat does.

dasanipure
Wed, Oct-19-05, 11:12
Another way to make protein filling is to make it spicy and acidic, I find. The acid (e.g. lots of lemon juice) slows down digestion, and the spice slows down the fork-to-mouth action.
(Off to make myself a salmon fillet fried in butter, thai spices, and lime juice.)

ItsTheWooo
Wed, Oct-19-05, 15:20
since the full fat cheese has only 2 carb calories (.5 grams) and the low-fat cheese has 27 carb calories (7 grams), i'm guessing that the full fat would be more satiating.

I might be off on the fat/pro counts but i know my low fat cheese only has like half a carb more than full fat. 2 oz (120 cal) is like 2-3 carbs. WIth that few carbs it really doesn't make a difference.

deirdra
Wed, Oct-19-05, 17:03
Is 105g protein really even a "High" protein diet compared to what they were eating before? It mentions that these obese patients were eating 15% protein before they started the diet, but if they were eating 2800+ cals/day when not on a diet, their protein intake would have been the same or higher before the diet. It is quite likely that eating only 37% carbs (compared to ~60% in a "normal" American diet) may be the real reason for their success. Why would doctors be worrying that their kidneys & calcium levels were threatened by keeping their protein intake ~the same??? Didn't they learn the difference between absolute numbers and percentages in university???

Those on the "high fat" diet only got 63g protein, probably not enough to sustain an obese person, so no wonder their bodies were hungry for muscle-building blocks!

eepobee
Wed, Oct-19-05, 17:12
Try it and report back!
i would if i could. i've been here in korea for almost five years and just started to see low-fat milk on the shelves in the last few months. no sign of any other low-fat dairy as of yet.

in terms of nutritional advice, korea is about 30 years behind the "westernized" world. this means that politically correct notions about health are just starting to gear up and that koreans might be in for the same kind of problems that we experienced during three decades of prominent low-fat dogma.

as far as satiety goes, i've always felt that it was the fat that kept off hunger, but i guess it could be that along with the high amounts of fat that i eat, there is a relatively high amount of protein. eggs are a good example. i use so much butter when frying eggs that they're basically boiling in it. but eggs are about 30% protein by calorie, and the 3-4 i eat a day alone make up 10-12% of my diet as protein.

there seems to be a lot of research on how either protein or fat effect the metabolism of carbs when consumbed together, but little on how they effect each other.

and yes, nancy, the source of my satiety often seems hard to put a finger on too. some days i feel hungrier than others, despite eating the same meal. i imagine there are quite a lot of factors that go into it.

Nancy LC
Wed, Oct-19-05, 17:29
I will try it. :) I'm trying to think of a good way to do this. Sometimes my appetite seems to be pretty hit and miss so I'd probably have to do it over the course of a week or so and note down when I get my first hunger pangs.

CindySue48
Wed, Oct-19-05, 22:27
They lost me as soon as they said "lean." Thye just don't get it <<<shaking head>>>:(I don't either! fatty meat, especially beef is so much better...ground beef especially is horrible if it's too lean!

Nancy LC
Thu, Oct-20-05, 09:23
Ok, starting the experiment today. I'm looking at a tiny container filled with 8 oz of 4% fat cottage cheese, which is 240 calories, with 1 oz of low-cal lemon curd on top. And I'm real dubious that'll fill me up or hold me until lunch. The nonfat stuff is 80 calories per 1/2 cup versus 120 calories in the full-fat stuff. The carb difference between the two is pretty small, but I don't recall it off hand.

I'll do my experiment on weekday mornings and take around 260 calories of various things to work on several consequtive days and see which ones work best.

Nancy LC
Mon, Oct-24-05, 15:34
Ok, I've got a few days of my experiment done.

2 days I took 4% CC, 240 calories worth. It held me until lunch time. I was concerned it wouldn't because its only a cup of it. (I ate it at 8:30 am everytime, lunch is when I can't tolerate the hunger any longer. Usually 11:30 but one day I lasted until 12:47, the next day, I succumbed at 11:30).

So today I took 240 calories of Non-fat CC. That's 1.5 cups. It also held up until lunch time (noon).

No real difference between the two except I felt initially more full with the NF, simply because of the bigger volume I think. But the 4% stuff made me swoon, it was so tasty. :D

I'll have to try sausages next.