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eepobee
Thu, Aug-18-05, 00:13
By FORD FESSENDEN

Death rates from heart disease in New York City and its suburbs are among the highest recorded in the country, and no one quite knows why.

Heart disease is more common among poorer people. Yet Nassau County, one of the 15 highest-income counties in the country, suffers heart disease death at a rate 20 percent above the norm, a review of death certificate records by The New York Times shows. Some New Jersey counties have similar rates. All the city boroughs except Manhattan have rates as high as rural counties in the South and Appalachia.

The pattern has raised questions about whether people in the New York area live with an excess of heart disease risks - stress, bad diets, too little exercise. But it has also prompted speculation that doctors in the area may lump deaths with more subtle causes into the heart disease category, making that toll look worse than it actually is.

"It's an absolute paradox, and absolutely fascinating," said Thomas Pearson, an epidemiologist at the University of Rochester School of Medicine.

Now, there are efforts under way to sort out the mystery: The New York City health department and the National Institutes of Health are conducting extensive studies to better assess poorly measured factors like stress, blood pressure and cholesterol in people in the New York area.

And the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, at the health department's request, has sent specialists to determine whether doctors in New York City ascribe causes of death substantially differently.

"Heart disease is high compared to the national average, and the first thing you do as an epidemiologist is to ask, is it real?" said Dr. Lorna Thorpe, the city's deputy commissioner of health. "I don't see strong evidence that we have more risk factors. But that said, New York is a unique living environment." Dr. George Howard, a researcher at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, is enrolling hundreds in the New York area in a nationwide study of stroke and heart disease. "It really is a head-scratcher," he said. "This is something we should be embarrassed that we don't know."

New York State has had one of the country's highest rates of heart disease deaths for many years. In 1994, a group of epidemiologists at the State University at Albany set out to see if it was a consequence of poor health in New York City and concluded it was not: Suburban areas, where the incidence of the disease was lower than in the city, still had worse death rates than in 42 other states.

"Communities in all areas of New York State have a substantially increased risk of death," they said in a study published in the journal of the United States Public Health Service.

But the phenomenon is only now drawing attention, as epidemiologists become more interested in geographic variation in disease.

In the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens and on Staten Island, death rates from heart disease are more than 300 per 100,000, compared with a national average of 253, according to figures from the Centers for Disease Control. Manhattan's is lower, about average. The rates were calculated for 1999 through 2002 and adjusted for age. Dr. Thorpe said poverty accounted for some of the higher rate. "The national poverty level is 12 percent, and citywide we're a lot higher than that," she said. "Part of the answer is poverty. But it doesn't entirely explain it."

The worst death rate among the city's boroughs, for instance, is Staten Island's, where the median income is high and there are few living in poverty. (The borough, however, has the highest smoking rate in New York City.) The reported heart disease death rate there is comparable to that of the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota, one of the nation's poorest areas.

Suburban counties show a similar pattern of death from heart disease that does not correspond with wealth or education. Nassau and Suffolk Counties have nearly 300 deaths per 100,000, far higher than most other wealthy areas. Suburban counties outside Washington are under 200.

Among the nation's 50 highest-income counties, only nine have death rates over 250 - two outside Atlanta and the rest outside New York.

"New York certainly does have affluence, but it seems like even well-off individuals are not doing as well compared to their peers from other states," said David Strogatz, the chairman of the department of epidemiology at the School of Public Health at the State University at Albany and an author of the 1994 study. "There's something about New York."

There is no obvious explanation. Some speculate about the potential role of stress. It is widely believed that life in New York is more difficult, and stress has been linked to higher heart disease mortality. A 1999 study showed that people were more likely to die of a heart attack in New York City than elsewhere. The authors suggested stress could play a role because the excess death rate affected both visitors and residents; they found no other explanation.

"There's an acute effect of being in New York," said Nicholas Christenfeld, a psychologist at the University of California at San Diego who did the study. "You're wired the whole time." But stress is difficult to measure, and there is no proof that life is more stressful in and around New York, despite the popular notions.

There is also a growing volume of research showing that heart disease death rates are higher in places with big gaps between the rich and the poor. Metropolitan areas with less income inequality - Seattle, Minneapolis, Salt Lake City - have lower heart disease death rates. New York's metropolitan area ranks at the top in income inequality.

"There's something about inequality in communities that affects all residents, not just the poor," Dr. Strogatz said. But the studies, while tantalizing, have not yet explained why there is a connection. Are there psychological issues that increase stress in places with unequal income distribution? Are there fewer services available to the poor in places with more income inequality? The answers are not clear.

The clearest predictors of heart disease are certain risky behaviors, like smoking and eating a high-fat diet. But according to the Centers for Disease Control's Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System, an annual national survey, people in the New York area, whether the city or suburbs, smoke less than average and are less likely to be obese than those in the rest of the country. They may not get as much exercise, however, and they may also have higher cholesterol levels.

Among 105 metropolitan areas surveyed, Nassau-Suffolk was eighth worst in the number of people at risk because of high cholesterol. The New York metropolitan area, which includes the city along with Westchester, Rockland and Putnam Counties and northern New Jersey, was the 28th worst. Two New Jersey metropolitan subdivisions - four counties around Edison and six counties from Newark west - also ranked above average in risk because of high cholesterol and lack of exercise.

Connecticut metropolitan areas tended to be below average in risks.

Some researchers find the cholesterol numbers provocative because they may be related to another anomaly in New York: Death from stroke is low. Dr. Howard, who has specialized in stroke death in the South, became interested in New York's high heart disease rates after discovering its unusually low rate of stroke death.

Heart disease death rates often march arm in arm with death from stroke - the risk factors for the diseases are similar, and in many populations where heart disease is high, so is stroke. But counties in the New York metropolitan area have some of the lowest rates of stroke death in the country. Nassau's stroke death rate puts it in the bottom 1 percent of the nation's counties.

"The things that put you at highest risk for heart disease are not the same as for stroke," Dr. Howard said. The main difference, he said, is cholesterol. "The role of lipids is very large in heart disease," he said, adding: "People think we eat badly in the South, but the worst meal I ever had was at a deli in New York. I'd never heard of schmaltz before that," referring to chicken fat.

Further muddying the waters, the measures for risks like cholesterol, along with stress and high blood pressure, are widely acknowledged to be flawed. Survey questions about whether a doctor has told you that you have high cholesterol, or whether you feel depressed, are not as simple as questions about smoking or weight and may not elicit reliable results, researchers say.

Dr. Howard has begun a study, financed by the National Institutes of Health, that is intended to help unravel some of the geographic mystery, although it may take several years. Hundreds of volunteers in New York and New Jersey will be part of an experiment involving 30,000 people nationwide.

Their blood pressure and cholesterol will be tested, and they will be asked a battery of questions about stress - how often do you feel unable to control things in your life, are you unable to cope with the things you need to cope with? The city's health department is also testing the blood pressure and cholesterol of 2,000 randomly selected volunteers. The survey began in 2004; results may begin to come in later this year.

The discordant rates for stroke and heart disease in the New York area also lead some authorities to suggest that doctors and hospitals lump deaths from other causes into heart disease categories.

"It may very well be that there's a practice of writing cardiovascular disease on the death certificate for stroke," said Bob Anderson, chief of the mortality statistics branch at the National Center for Health Statistics.

Dr. David Ackman, the Nassau County health commissioner, agreed that the answer could lie in record-keeping. "In New York State hospitals, if they are more likely to list ischemic heart disease as the primary cause than doctors in other places, you have to at least consider that it is a coding issue and not a biological issue."

But others find that implausible.

Since Dr. Strogatz's study, which was based on death rates from the 1980's, there has been little change in New York's high rate of heart disease death. "If geographic differences in mortality were due to errors in coding, I would have expected those differences to change over time as diagnostic methods improved," he said.

The answer may come soon. The Centers for Disease Control, at the request of the city's health department, has a group of cardiologists studying patient charts from a sample of 500 deaths in the city in 2004. They will judge the actual cause of death, and their results will be compared with death certificates.

The variations will then be compared with what was found in a 2001 four-city study of the differences between death certificates and patient charts. "If they're comparable, we know that this is a real phenomenon," Dr. Thorpe said. "If not, then we know that there is something about reporting that is aberrant to the rest of the country."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/18/nyregion/18heart.html?hp&ex=1124424000&en=2dfdc89810d08680&ei=5094&partner=homepage

tie_guy
Thu, Aug-18-05, 08:05
What would be more scary? If they concluded that there really were higher rates of heart attacks in the NYC area and they cannot figure out why, or that there in fact weren't more heart attacks in NYC it is just that the doctors filled out the death certificate wrong. Either one sounds pretty darn scary! I of course am not sure if they are on the right track with the diet theory but I wouldn't be surprised if stress has something to do with it. I know I get stressed whenever I am in New York (or any large city that just has too many people!)

ItsTheWooo
Thu, Aug-18-05, 09:17
IMO I'm liable to believe it's stress. I live in the NJ/NY area and it's really unnatural & unhealthy the way they live. People everywhere, the noise, it's not relaxing at all. Even the wealthier people who don't live crammed together ... odds are they commute to work in the bustling city which major stresses them out. In fact, I would be liable to believe that spending more active time in the stress of the busy city would strongly correlate with risk of CHD. My father works in NY himself and is a basketcase of stress.

Stress does things to hormones that create a fertile ground for metabolic syndrome & heart disease. Those high risk behaviors become way riskier.

Of course it could also be that Drs are misdiagnosing people... who know

mrfreddy
Thu, Aug-18-05, 09:27
I live in NY city and have a fairly stress free job, a 3 block walk to work, I go to the gym regularly, and of course, I eat a healthy low carb diet... BUT, you're right, most New Yorkers I see in restaraunts and bars around here are pretty stressed out, they smoke, they drink (ahem, so do I...), they eat loads of carbs...

maybe it's all the bagels everyone eats all the time, ha haa......

Dodger
Thu, Aug-18-05, 09:30
I wonder if New Yorkers embrace the low-fat WOL more than the rest of the US.

K Walt
Thu, Aug-18-05, 10:44
To me, it sounds like they don't have a clue.

Maybe it's cholesterol. . . no, wait, maybe it's diet. Or, or, maybe it's stress. Or, maybe doctors fill out the form wrong. Or maybe it's Mayor Bloomberg. Or, schmalz. Or, maybe it's creased earlobes.

AKA: "We don't know."

I wish someone would SAY that for once.

mrfreddy
Thu, Aug-18-05, 10:48
it's those damn boston red-sox!!!

Samuel
Thu, Aug-18-05, 11:27
In the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens and on Staten Island, death rates from heart disease are more than 300 per 100,000, compared with a national average of 253

The difference is too small to be conclusive.

ItsTheWooo
Thu, Aug-18-05, 13:54
The difference is too small to be conclusive.

I don't know I think 20% increase is pretty big.

Samuel
Thu, Aug-18-05, 14:39
I don't know I think 20% increase is pretty big.

But the difference is only 47 in 100,000 of people who die in NY in a year. You can't use the percentage increase for evaluation when the number of cases is too small.

If one person won the lottery last month and two won the lottery this month would you try to look for a reason why American people's luck have gone up by 100%?!

Collateral
Thu, Aug-18-05, 14:58
it's those damn boston red-sox!!!


LOL! heck yeah i cannot stand that team! Everytime they beat the yankees my blood pressure goes up!

TBoneMitch
Thu, Aug-18-05, 15:10
I agree with Samuel that the difference may simply be a statistical fluke, if there is any difference at all and not just more misdiagnoses by doctors.

These relative risks are used all the time by epidemiologists in order to make trivial differences seem important.

Unfortunately, it creates a huge mass of misinformation and exaggeration, and you have to go to the original data (47 more deaths in 100 000 people per year) to figure out the fraud.

kebaldwin
Thu, Aug-18-05, 16:27
My reasoning are:

1. Poor people are more likely to eat prepared (instant) foods that are higher in trans fats and high glycemic carbohydrates.

2. NYC has a much higher % of liberals who believe that eating meat and eggs is bad for you. So naturally they eat a higher carb diet and miss out on all the protein, fat, vitamins, and minerals that come with them.

Judynyc
Thu, Aug-18-05, 19:30
NYC has a much higher % of liberals who believe that eating meat and eggs is bad for you.

Now then.... where do you get this kind of information? :o

Do you really think its because liberals believe that meat and eggs are bad for you? :lol: This is totally ridiculous!!

And from a born and bred New Yorker, I can tell you that the stress level here is off the charts!! stress does do bad things to hormones in our bodies that effect the functioning of major organs including and especially the heart.

MsTwacky
Thu, Aug-18-05, 20:06
My reasoning are:

1. Poor people are more likely to eat prepared (instant) foods that are higher in trans fats and high glycemic carbohydrates.

2. NYC has a much higher % of liberals who believe that eating meat and eggs is bad for you. So naturally they eat a higher carb diet and miss out on all the protein, fat, vitamins, and minerals that come with them.

While I do agree with your number #1 answer, I had to laugh at that extremly absurd comment you left for #2. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Did you learn that cause and effect in a statistics class or Poli Sci? :q:

Please enlighten me :idea: to your information of liberals not eating meat and eggs? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh and most of the vitamins and minerals come from veggies although you probably could get a good source of iron and vitamin e and a from meat and eggs.

Collateral
Thu, Aug-18-05, 20:49
Liberals are a pain though, thats why i hate watching MTV.

Judynyc
Thu, Aug-18-05, 20:52
Liberals are a pain though, thats why i hate watching MTV.

This is getting totally off topic!!
What is your point?

TBoneMitch
Thu, Aug-18-05, 21:11
All vitamins and minerals (even C, just in lesser amounts) can be found in animal foods, and some (B12, true A, D) are only found in animal foods.

Plus, they are more usable to our bodies in their animal foods versions.

MsTwacky
Thu, Aug-18-05, 21:34
All vitamins and minerals (even C, just in lesser amounts) can be found in animal foods, and some (B12, true A, D) are only found in animal foods.

Plus, they are more usable to our bodies in their animal foods versions.


Thank you I knew someone would have something to say, I will add that fiber is also needed at about 20-25 grams a day. I don't know many proteins that can provide that so therefore veggies and meat make a great pair!

MsTwacky
Thu, Aug-18-05, 21:42
Liberals are a pain though, thats why i hate watching MTV.


Well before this end up in the war zone I have to say I'm in the middle I guess that would be a moderate that being said........... that was the silliest comment!

So don't watch MTV! Watch Fox!

ItsTheWooo
Thu, Aug-18-05, 21:47
2. NYC has a much higher % of liberals
I sense a derailin' and maybe a trip to the war zone in this threads future :lol:

ItsTheWooo
Thu, Aug-18-05, 21:52
Now then.... where do you get this kind of information? :o

Do you really think its because liberals believe that meat and eggs are bad for you? :lol: This is totally ridiculous!!

And from a born and bred New Yorker, I can tell you that the stress level here is off the charts!! stress does do bad things to hormones in our bodies that effect the functioning of major organs including and especially the heart.

For real yea, people who don't live in the area have no idea what it's like.

Let me give you an example, my family (part of it) is originally from brooklyn, thick accents and all :lol:. Just a few weeks ago I went to stay a few days. Imagine driving around the streets looking for a parking space for like over a half hour. Imagine cops that give your cars tickets on a whim. That - the traffic situation - is just part of it. Everyone is always in a rush, you feel a constant pressure when in NY. Everyone is a stranger, and you feel suspicious and guarded of them all. Everything is so expensive, there is a huge inequity between the rich and the poor. Now NY is very good to it's poor compared to other areas of the country, so in a way the poor have it good there, but the reason this is so is because it's impossible to live in that area unless you're higher income. In other words, there's a tremendous amount of poor people in NY, right next to some of the worlds most wealthiest. So basically, the rich supplement the poor to keep them "out of the way". This is hardly a fix. There is nothing more stressful than trying to make ends meet, barely, struggling day in day out. The cost of rent is ridiculous, the cost of everything is ridiculous.

I mean, the noise, being on top of people, living in a tiny space, this is not natural living for humans and we pay for it in our health.

ItsTheWooo
Thu, Aug-18-05, 21:56
Oh and I don't think the green peace hippy crowd - while overrepresented in NY and perhaps other major culture areas of america - are the ones getting sick. First of all they (trendy vegetarians) tend to be young, health conscious, and therefore fit. Second, the ones who get heart disease are usually not people eating vegetarian LF diets. Even though I would agree those diets aren't as healthy as a LC diet, both diets are vastly superior to the way the average american eats which is the huge portions of refined starches, sugars, processed fats take out crap food diet. Most people who get heart disease live unhealthfully and eat unhealthfully.

kwikdriver
Thu, Aug-18-05, 21:57
2. NYC has a much higher % of liberals who believe that eating meat and eggs is bad for you. So naturally they eat a higher carb diet and miss out on all the protein, fat, vitamins, and minerals that come with them.

:lol:I thought Rush Limbaugh used the oxycontin diet; I had no idea he went low carb and posts here. ;)

ItsTheWooo
Thu, Aug-18-05, 22:07
All vitamins and minerals (even C, just in lesser amounts) can be found in animal foods, and some (B12, true A, D) are only found in animal foods.

Plus, they are more usable to our bodies in their animal foods versions.

I would agree, meat is more essential to the human diet than vegetables are by a lot. I reason that in a totally natural environment, someone placed on an all animal food diet is going to be heaps healthier than the vegetarian cave man. Modern processing allows vegetarians to stay healthy, but in the wilderness they would wither and die. Animal food is the ideal source for virtually everything we need to thrive (concentrated energy, proteins, fats, vitamins (especially if eating the internal organs like liver) and minerals (bones are an excellent source of minerals often overlooked)). Human beings have a very inadequate capacity to generate nutrition from plant food, unlike vegetarian animals. That's why unprocessed plant food diets are great for reducing weight... we can't stay nourished on leaves. Even fruits aren't adequate. Too bad loss of fat from not eating enough usually goes along with other nutritional deficiencies :(.

I mean I'm not railing against veggies or even fruits, but it's simply not a question as to which is more essential for human beings. It's patently obvious we are predominantly carnivorous by nature.

ItsTheWooo
Thu, Aug-18-05, 22:11
Thank you I knew someone would have something to say, I will add that fiber is also needed at about 20-25 grams a day. I don't know many proteins that can provide that so therefore veggies and meat make a great pair!

Well I am a die hard carnivore and let me tell you, eating bones to get at the yummy marrow, and it is a great way to add "bulk" if you know what I mean :).

Most of us think "animal food" is like the fat free chicken breast at the store, but if you look at the ENTIRE animal, the way a cave man would... it's really an excellent source for all our nutritional needs. Show me a plant that, as an entity, is an excellent source of caloric energy, complete proteins, EFAs, preformed vitamins & rich in minerals in an unprocessed unfortified state. Point out any animal though and you have found your miracle food :).

Judynyc
Thu, Aug-18-05, 22:53
For real yea, people who don't live in the area have no idea what it's like.



I live and work in Manhattan....the noise level alone, is enough to set your nerves on edge!! Constant police, ambulance and fire trucks all with screaming sirens. Trucks and buses emit fumes that make it hard to breath and not considering the amount of personal cars that are here too.

Walking on the sidewalk is like walking in a war zone.....bikes on the sidewalks do not get out of your way. People get hit by bikes all the time. Getting onto a subway or bus at rush hour is like squeezing yourself like a sardine into an already full can...and then the door closes on you!!

everything has a line...we have to wait everywhere for anything.

Traffic all over the 5 boroughs is the worst....They call the LIE the longest parking lot in the world and they are not kidding!!

I am numb to it most of the time. I do stay up late at night as this is the only time that its quiet enough for me to de-stress from my day. I relish this quiet time!!

Yeah....I think stress is a key factor in the heart health of NYers. :agree:

MsTwacky
Thu, Aug-18-05, 23:49
Wow and to think I'm going there in 2 months! lol!!!

I hope a bike doesn't hit me!

eepobee
Fri, Aug-19-05, 02:56
The clearest predictors of heart disease are certain risky behaviors, like smoking and eating a high-fat diet
still working on this assumption, are they? probably won't figure out the "paradox" until they realize high-fat diets aren't good "predictors" (don't they mean risk factors) of heart disease.

Nancy LC
Fri, Aug-19-05, 08:30
Having just gone through a death in my family, you'd be really hard pressed to decide what my Dad died from. He probably had some strokes which caused him to get pneumonia.

Unless you do an autopsy you really can't know what killed a person, and even then sometimes you can't.

eepobee
Fri, Aug-19-05, 08:44
Thank you I knew someone would have something to say, I will add that fiber is also needed at about 20-25 grams a day. I don't know many proteins that can provide that so therefore veggies and meat make a great pair!
unlike essential amino acids, fats, vitamins and minerals, fiber is not "needed". it has been promoted by various health "authorities", but has yet to be proven to confer any essential role in human health. furthermore, fiber is not provided by protein, fats, or carbohydrates. it's a material found in plants but is not derived from any macronutrient.

mrfreddy
Fri, Aug-19-05, 09:07
I live and work in Manhattan....the noise level alone, is enough to set your nerves on edge!! Constant police, ambulance and fire trucks all with screaming sirens. Trucks and buses emit fumes that make it hard to breath and not considering the amount of personal cars that are here too.

Walking on the sidewalk is like walking in a war zone.....bikes on the sidewalks do not get out of your way. People get hit by bikes all the time. Getting onto a subway or bus at rush hour is like squeezing yourself like a sardine into an already full can...and then the door closes on you!!

everything has a line...we have to wait everywhere for anything.

Traffic all over the 5 boroughs is the worst....They call the LIE the longest parking lot in the world and they are not kidding!!

I am numb to it most of the time. I do stay up late at night as this is the only time that its quiet enough for me to de-stress from my day. I relish this quiet time!!

Yeah....I think stress is a key factor in the heart health of NYers. :agree:



I also live and work in Manhattan.... maybe it's because I spend most of my time in lower manhattan, or mabye I've just gotten used to it, but it's not really that noisy or crowed... and when I go anywhere else, I find it kinda boring... my friends in the burbs have to drive to go anywhere (I have a car, but it sits unused 99% of the time, and I lived here 8 years without one), out in the burbs, there aren't many quality restaraunts and again, you gotta drive to get to them (in my immediate area alone, there are almost a dozen top notch steak houses... I havent even had time to try them all out yet!), and out there, people seem more isolated and, hmmm, how do you say this, less "diversified"?? when I wander around the burbs, I only see people that look like me... here in the city, I see the entire range of the human spectrum...

so, maybe I'm stressed and just dont know it, but I love it here...

alpdiver
Fri, Aug-19-05, 09:27
An interesting perspective on the subject NYTimes article by Dr. Michael Eades, co-author of Protein Power and related books can be found at:

http://blog.proteinpower.com/drmike/

tamarian
Fri, Aug-19-05, 09:40
An interesting perspective on the subject NYTimes article by Dr. Michael Eades, co-author of Protein Power and related books can be found at:

http://blog.proteinpower.com/drmike/

I'll post the "permalink", so that it easier to find when he adds other entries :)

http://blog.proteinpower.com/drmike/archives/2005/08/anti-fat_bias_o.html

Wa'il

MsTwacky
Fri, Aug-19-05, 12:31
Thank you so much for that link!

That was great!

MsTwacky
Fri, Aug-19-05, 12:33
unlike essential amino acids, fats, vitamins and minerals, fiber is not "needed". it has been promoted by various health "authorities", but has yet to be proven to confer any essential role in human health. furthermore, fiber is not provided by protein, fats, or carbohydrates. it's a material found in plants but is not derived from any macronutrient.

Well I am a die hard carnivore and let me tell you, eating bones to get at the yummy marrow, and it is a great way to add "bulk" if you know what I mean .

Well in that case all of you can go on eating just meat...and in some case bones and marrow. That's fine with me. I can't argue with Woo and that great success. Or your facts.

I prefer a variety so to each his own. ;)

Dodger
Fri, Aug-19-05, 12:43
unlike essential amino acids, fats, vitamins and minerals, fiber is not "needed". it has been promoted by various health "authorities", but has yet to be proven to confer any essential role in human health. furthermore, fiber is not provided by protein, fats, or carbohydrates. it's a material found in plants but is not derived from any macronutrient.

While not considered 'fiber', there is indigestible material in non-plant, i.e. meat, food sources that does the same thing that fiber does in the digestive system (pass through).

Samuel
Fri, Aug-19-05, 12:56
You need about 10-12 grams of fibers per day in order to prevent constipation. You can easily get this amount from the vegetables you eat when you are on any phase of Atkins diet.

So, I think that the people who claim that eating all kinds of whole grain foods and fiber rich fruits is good for you are not giving you the right advice. Eating excessive amounts of fibers for a long time can permanently enlarge your stomach which can lead to obesity.

mrfreddy
Fri, Aug-19-05, 16:58
You need about 10-12 grams of fibers per day in order to prevent constipation. You can easily get this amount from the vegetables you eat when you are on any phase of Atkins diet.



in the past, I've experimented with an all meat diet for several days (just meat and eggs, actually), and found this not to be true... I was just as regular as always... which is funny, when I started low carbing, I did have some troubles with constipation, but that disappeared along with the pounds a long time ago. maybe your body just has to adjust???

TarHeel
Fri, Aug-19-05, 17:40
As an older person who has had an extremely stress filled past year, I can attest to the fact that spending this summer in a quiet peaceful mountain cottage has made a world of difference. And I don't live in a city environment at home. But the reduction in noise from road construction, weed whackers, boom boxes in cars, closer neighbors, etc. has had a dramatic effect on me. Don't know what my heart thinks of it, but with no noise, I simply forgot to take my meds for anxiety and feel damn good.

Then again, it may just be the Red Sox!

Kay

eepobee
Sat, Aug-20-05, 00:21
i was wrong about fiber not being a carbohydrate. well, partially at least. there are different types of fiber. the most abundant is cellulose, which is a CHO and is likely what most people speak of when the refer to dietary fiber. another fiber is pectin, which is also a carbohydrate. lignin, the fiber which gives plants their rigidity, is not a carbohydate. my apologies...
While not considered 'fiber', there is indigestible material in non-plant, i.e. meat, food sources that does the same thing that fiber does in the digestive system (pass through).interesting. do you have any links to info on this?
in the past, I've experimented with an all meat diet for several days (just meat and eggs, actually), and found this not to be true... I was just as regular as always... which is funny, when I started low carbing, I did have some troubles with constipation, but that disappeared along with the pounds a long time ago. maybe your body just has to adjust???
yeah, your experience parallels what dr. lutz had to say on the subject in life without bread(p 111-12):When people begin a low-carbohydrate diet, the stool becomes more solid and temporary constipation can result. [...] Under the continued diet, the stool eventually will normalize. In children this can take one or two days; in young adults one or two weeks; and in older persons, a few months[...] The problem here is that the muscles responsible for pushing the stool throught the digestive system become weak in high-carbohydrate eaters because carbohydrates tend to "poison" the gut, which increases bowel movements without the need for muscle action.

Dodger
Sat, Aug-20-05, 10:24
The true ileal digestibility of cooked and raw egg protein amounted to 90.9 ± 0.8 and 51.3 ± 9.8%, respectively.
http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/128/10/1716

Galliard
Sun, Aug-21-05, 19:00
This article on heart disease in NYC reminds me of a news item a few years ago about the "mystery" of some county in California where the women were among the wealthiest and best-educated in the country and also had the highest rates of breast-cancer in the country. The NYC heart disease article indicated a similar high rate of heart disease outside of Atlanta. NYC and the suburbs of Atlanta have in common a fairly wealthy and well-educated population as well as high stress (Atlanta now has one of the highest, if not the highest murder rates per capita in the country). I wouldn't say that it's a liberal political orientation that dictates the type of diet that gives you heart disease (or breast cancer) so much as upper-middle-class assumptions about slenderness and health that lead you to eat yogurt for breakfast, a salad with low-fat dressing for lunch and pasta (with low-fat tomato sauce) for dinner. These well-to-do, well-educated people are most likely starving themselves in the name of health.