"High on the Hog" (The wonders of lard)

[Futurist]

Intersting article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/12/opinion/12kummer.html?incamp=article_popular

[kebaldwin]

As people start returning to "natural foods" hopefuly lard will become mainstream again. My local pork house sells buckets of it.

[tie_guy]

It is my understanding that they make trans fat by taking unsaturated fat and turning it into saturated fat by adding hydrogen. Is that true? If it is then I wonder where they get the hydrgen from. I understand that one of the cheapest ways to get pure hydrogen gas is from processing fosil fuels. So do they then avoid using "unhealthy" all natural lard by taking vegie oil and processing it with coal or motor oil? Please tell me I am missing something here; after all I am after all not a chemist.

I hope LC'ers are getting over the "oh lard that is disgusting" reflex because it seems to me to be 100 times better than the alternative.

[seyont]

When I was little we used to get five-gallon buckets of lard back along with the meat. (Don't remember if it took one or several pigs to fill a bucket).

Which kind of makes me wonder: where does the lard go these days? We don't get it. Dogs and cats don't seem to get it in their Purina. Landfill?

[ItsTheWooo]

Intersting article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/12/opinion/12kummer.html?incamp=article_popular

That would be great if lard made a come back in restaurants. Natural foods usually taste better and are healthier, the only exception to this rule is really with concentrated & refined carbohydrate food. Since this is an unnatural food to begin with, the equally unnatural substitute is usually a better choice if one must have this as part of their diet.

[mercury]

I understand that one of the cheapest ways to get pure hydrogen gas is from processing fosil fuels.
Actually the cheapest way to get hydrogen is to remove the oxygen from water.

[eryalen]

I can't open the link. Could someone post a copy.
"Tenderflake" lard by Maple Leaf has started labeling the carton with "Non-Hydrogenated". I was leary of using lard before as it was all listed "may be hydrogenated". I'm not sure whether this created trans-fats in lard but I didn't want to take the chance.

[tescobabe]

We can buy lard in england as easily as butter. Before Atkins I roasted my potatoes in it every Sunday!

[Dodger]

I can't open the link. Could someone post a copy.
"Tenderflake" lard by Maple Leaf has started labeling the carton with "Non-Hydrogenated". I was leary of using lard before as it was all listed "may be hydrogenated". I'm not sure whether this created trans-fats in lard but I didn't want to take the chance.

You were smart not to take the chance. The hydrogenation of lard does change the non-saturated fats found in lard into trans fats.

[Bunbun]

Actually the cheapest way to get hydrogen is to remove the oxygen from water.

Steam reforming of natural gas is the cheapest and most prevalent method used to extract hydrogen commercially. Water electrolysis is much simpler, but more expensive.

[TheCaveman]

Steam reforming of natural gas is the cheapest and most prevalent method used to extract hydrogen commercially. Water electrolysis is much simpler, but more expensive.

True. The amount of electricity needed to make hydrogen is enormous.

[Angeline]

I can't open the link. Could someone post a copy.
"Tenderflake" lard by Maple Leaf has started labeling the carton with "Non-Hydrogenated". I was leary of using lard before as it was all listed "may be hydrogenated". I'm not sure whether this created trans-fats in lard but I didn't want to take the chance.


I avoided it for the same reason. Does real lard need to be refrigerated? Tenderflake sits on the shelf next to the Crisco (shudder)

[tie_guy]

I may not be a chemist, but I know that the laws of thermodynamics state that the amount of energy needed to split water into hydrogen and oxygen is greater than or equal to (most likely greater than) the amount of energy you get from burning hydrogen. So even if you do the electrolysis thing (or some other way of splitting water) it will always require lots of energy and it is very likely that you are getting the energy from fossil fuels anyway.

Any way you look at it trans fats are a franken foods that do not exist in nature. So how could we have evolved to be able to eat it? Unless you believe that God somehow stacked the deck so that millions of years after life started on earth humans would end up being able to eat trans fats as sort of a kick back to the food industry. Does God give kick backs?

[ProfGumby]

Thats just it, we aren't able to eat it in a sense. Our bodies don't know what to to with hydrogenated fats, so it stores them and they build up over the long term. We can eat marbles if we want, it is not a matter of what we can and can't put in our stomachs, it is more a matter of what our body does with the stuff.

[tom sawyer]

Tie guy, in fact trans fats DO exist in nature. Just not in the quantities that would make them purifiable in mass quantities for consumption. So to say that our bodies have not adapted to process them, is incorrect. However, we were never eating that much of them like now.

Trans fats don't scare me. Sugar and starch scare me. Until studies show trans fats have detrimental helath effects as part of a low carb diet, I'm reserving judgement. Then again, since I'm not afraid of satfats (for the same reasons I don't fear transfats) I tend to use butter and lard anyway. Butter is tastier than margarine.

[tom sawyer]

Hydrogenating fats, just takes the kink out of the double bond in the fatty acid. The normal configuration is generally "cis" (same side), so the long fatty acid is kinked and doesn't pack together as nicely. Making it trans, makes the fatty acid more linear and then t can pack closer together and become a solid as a result.

I know that plants have C16 trans fatty acid in small amounts, I've read that animal fats also contain some but am not sure about this.

[Dodger]

Tom,

Conjugated Linoleic Acid (CLA) is the trans fat found in meat and milk. Estimated average intake of CLA in the US is 150 mg/day for women and 200 mg/day for men. It is not a major source of fats in the diet.

[tie_guy]

Is there a fat cliff note somewhere. I am just enough of a nerd to want to learn more about it.

[tom sawyer]

So the levels of naturally occurring trans-fatty acids are low, however, the presence of them in nature means that we have likely developed enzymatic means of dealing with them. They are not completely foreign to our bodies, as some would have us believe. Now I do believe there can be too much of a good thing, and I'm not saying that trans-fats are even a good thing to begin with.

Tie Guy, just google up "fatty acids" or "triglycerides", and you should find plenty of info.

[Dodger]

Tom,

The manmade trans fats are chemically different from the naturally occuring trans fats.

[catfishghj]

Here are your "cliff notes" on fats
http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/index.html
in particular:
http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/skinny.html

[deb34]

"pork Fat rules"

:yum:

Deb

[tom sawyer]

Dodger, maybe the exact position of the trans- double bond is different, but the fact remains that our bodies are exposed to fatty acids with trans-double bonds. We have likely developed enzymatic means of processing them for use as energy. Either by saturating the double bond prior to snipping off that particluar two-carbon fragment, or simply cutting it out and excreting it. If they are sent to storage, then there wouldn't even need to be any special enzymes since the acid part of the fatty acid is what is acted on when attaching fatty acids to the glycerol backbone.

But the safety of natural fats like lard and butterfat, would seem to preclude the necessity of going to chemistry to create something safe to eat. Still, if I were on a strict budget, since margarine is cheaper than butter I would use it as part of a low-carb program and not fear for my health.

If anyone has published results of studies showing that trans-fat in conjunction with a low carb diet has negative health consequences, I would be interested in seeing them. If not, then I am as skeptical about the data showing trans-fat is bad for you, as I am about the volumes of data showing animal fats are bad.

[Dodger]

Tom,

The exact position of bonds in fats in important. The difference between omega-3, omega-6 and omega-9 oils is only in where the first double bond is located, but the uses of there oils in the body are very different.

The hydrogenation process used to turn polyunsaturated oils into trans fats does not control where the trans bonds are located. You end up with a mixture of trans fat configuration, most of which do not occur in nature.

[tom sawyer]

The uses are different in respect to their conversion to hormone compounds, but I'm not sure that a significant amount of the unsaturated fats that are consumed, have this fate. In any case, can you point me to studies of trans-fats in a low-carb background? Or all all the data done with conventional diets? And if you are willing to believe this data, why would you not buy into the lipid hypothesis as well? There's plenty of data that shows fats are bad when you consume them along with copious amounts of carbs.

[Dodger]

Tom,

As you are well aware, the number of studies done on people who eat a low-carb diet are few. Unfortunately we have to extrapolate and read between the lines to determine what results may or may not be appropriate. Whether or not man-made trans-fats are harmful is something that everyone will have to decide on their own. I have found no need for them in my diet and they are reasonably easy to avoid, so I avoid them.

As far as the lipid hypothesis, I did buy into that for years, until I actually read the studies/papers that allegedly supported it. The hypothesis is not supported by valid data, unrelated to carb consumption. The lipid hypothesis is supported by smoke and mirrors, not science.

[tom sawyer]

Thank you for admitting that you are extrapolating.

Here is my take on the data. When a person eats carbs, one of the things they are doing is putting their system in a constant state of inflammation. I firmly believe this, since low carbing my acne has gotten better and my asthma has gone away. I don't believe it was the weight loss only that did this, because when I eat carbs I break out within a day or two.

Inflammation makes the formation of arterial plaques more likely. It would appear that trans fats enhance the formation or severity of plaques. I think that is safe to say.

Without the inflammatory state caused by carbohydrates, I don't think it is fair to assume that transfats would have the same effect.

You are right about the ease of avoiding transfats. It only takes a little extra money to buy butter. If I were on a budget, I would not hesitate to use margarine though. As far as the rest, since I don't do much baking or buy many of the processed food materials that are invariably loaded with carbs as well as hydrognated fats, yes it is easy enough to avoid transfats.

[DebN2005]

When I was little we used to get five-gallon buckets of lard back along with the meat. (Don't remember if it took one or several pigs to fill a bucket).

Which kind of makes me wonder: where does the lard go these days? We don't get it. Dogs and cats don't seem to get it in their Purina. Landfill?

Plenty of other cultures cook with lard. Refried beans are dismal without it. I worked in groceries last year and they sell lard in blocks and buckets. The brand I saw most often is Manteca if you want to ask for it at your store.