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Nancy LC
Mon, Jul-25-05, 08:57
I just saw the Good Eats episode about Chicken and the difference between Free Range and organic and typical commericial chicken. I learned a few things... probably the most exciting was how to butterfly a chicken and roast it on top of vegetables in 30 minutes! But equally exciting was the news that commercial growers don't use hormones or steroids on their chickens, it is, in fact illegal. It'd probably be a waste of money too since they mature very quickly anyway, due to breeding, and really only live a few months.

They also talked about the color of the skin on chickens. The reason they have a yellow skin is because someone decided that consumers like yellow skinned chickens better, so they put marigold petals in the chicken feed.

Posted this in war zone because I felt it might stir a debate.

Dodger
Mon, Jul-25-05, 10:23
So if I eat marigolds, will I get yellow skin?

ysabella
Mon, Jul-25-05, 10:44
Thanks for the info! Chicken in this country is still a kind of interesting topic.

If you look at the bags of pre-frozen chicken (the 'ice glazed' ones), they usually say something like "INJECTED WITH A SOLUTION OF WATER, DEXTROSE, AND SALT." So a lot of people on the very low-carb plans, like Atkins, are wary of that, which is fine.

I generally avoid the very cheap chicken at my local store; I live in the PNW, and the cheapest chicken (giant packs of legs, thighs) is usually labeled "Southern Grown." That means it was probably from one of those Tyson places in Arkansas, or something, and it just seems to me that I'd rather buy chicken from a farm in Oregon or Washington. Foster Farms has farms up here, and there's another one that's quite local.

What's really interesting is, I recently read an excellent book called So Many Enemies, So Little Time (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/006052443X/) about an American teaching in Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/kg.html) , Central Asia.
The author bought a whole chicken and found it was totally inedible. Stringy and tough, it never got more tender, but just shrank. Going back to the market, she found they sold only whole chickens or legs. The legs for sale seemed huge compared to the small, stringy whole chickens. They even had rotisseries cooking just the legs. She asked around, and finally got the story:

"Nogi Busha," she said. "You know, as in the president of the United States. Bush legs."
It seems that during the winter of 1991, when the former USSR was collapsing and food was growing dangerously scarce, Papa Bush, George Sr., sent America's excess chicken parts -- all those legs left over from 10 million chicken breast sandwiches -- as humanitarian aid to Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Mongolia, Georgia and the Ukraine. The obscenely oversize poultry gams won the hearts, or at least the stomachs, of consumers accustomed to stringy Soviet-era fowl. Once the emergency was past, aid turned into trade. Bush legs still dominated the market, both for their colossal girth and for their price, half of what locally produced chicken cost.

I was rereading A Cook's Tour (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060012781/) recently, and he says something negative about how Americans only eat "fluffy white chicken breasts" and waste so much, but hey, look how people benefitted from our plenty.

LadyArya
Mon, Jul-25-05, 10:49
So if I eat marigolds, will I get yellow skin?

Probably. My art prof's toddler daughter ate so many carrots her nose had an orange tinge to it. It's not impossible.

Edit to add link: http://www.ccmr.cornell.edu/education/ask/index.html?quid=592

doreen T
Mon, Jul-25-05, 10:55
So if I eat marigolds, will I get yellow skin?
Yep. The dye in those marigolds (a.k.a. calendula officinalis) is good ol' beta carotene. Consuming excess beta carotene can cause hypercarotenemia ... and yellow skin.


Doreen

doreen T
Mon, Jul-25-05, 10:55
Edit to add link: http://www.ccmr.cornell.edu/education/ask/index.html?quid=592
Great link :thup:


Doreen

kwikdriver
Mon, Jul-25-05, 11:00
I was rereading A Cook's Tour (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060012781/) recently, and he says something negative about how Americans only eat "fluffy white chicken breasts" and waste so much, but hey, look how people benefitted from our plenty.

That's an interesting story. Several years ago I had something called smoked turkey tails. They were OK, a little fatty for me, but they had an interesting flavor. Once I started low carbing I got a craving for them, but couldn't find them anywhere -- no store within a 50 mile radius of me sells them, or had any idea of anyone who did. I did a little research and discovered that the U.S. sells its turkey tails to impoverished countries, and in some places they have become delicacies. I can't buy them here, where they are produced, because they are being shipped overseas. Kind of odd how that works out.

Dodger
Mon, Jul-25-05, 11:01
Yep. The dye in those marigolds (a.k.a. calendula officinalis) is good ol' beta carotene. Consuming excess beta carotene can cause hypercarotenemia ... and yellow skin.


Doreen

That means that those people who don't eat chicken skin are avoiding a good source of beta carotene.

Wyvrn
Mon, Jul-25-05, 11:22
I generally avoid the very cheap chicken at my local store; I live in the PNW, and the cheapest chicken (giant packs of legs, thighs) is usually labeled "Southern Grown." That means it was probably from one of those Tyson places in Arkansas, or something, and it just seems to me that I'd rather buy chicken from a farm in Oregon or Washington. Foster Farms has farms up here, and there's another one that's quite local.Costco has Foster Farms, and the Oly food coop has locally grown organic/free range chicken.

I was rereading A Cook's Tour (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060012781/) recently, and he says something negative about how Americans only eat "fluffy white chicken breasts" and waste so much, but hey, look how people benefitted from our plenty.I never understood this. White meat is so dry and flavorless compared to dark. Well, they can have it, and that preference for white meat keeps prices down on the good stuff.

Wyv

Nancy LC
Mon, Jul-25-05, 11:25
Well, I confess to having eaten Chicken Feet at a chinese restaurant serving Dim Sum. Hey, I figure if all those Chinese like it, it must be good.

I suspect there isn't enough dextrose in the chicken meat to be that huge of a problem. If you look at the total carbs on frozen chicken, its very low.

One thing they said is that chicken tastes entirely different now than it used to. In fact, the phrase "tastes like chicken" oddly wouldn't apply to old fashioned chickens.

I think 50 years ago, or more, the chicken lived a lot longer before being slaughtered, they probably lived on plant shoots, scraps and bug (boy, chickens LOVE to eat bugs!). In fact, when I was a kid, my parents slaughtered our baby chicks... well, after they grew into hens and stopped laying reliably. And they tasted decidedly different from store chicken. In fact, I didn't like the taste. I don't know if that was influenced by the fact that I was emotionally attached to our hens or what.

My hands used to have an orangish cast from all the carrot juice my mom made us drink.

Nancy LC
Mon, Jul-25-05, 12:05
Ah! There's a reason I won't buy some of the commercial chickens... I think Tyson farms was the one... I have heard they use lots of illegal immigrant labor in their factories.

cygirl
Mon, Jul-25-05, 14:20
So if I eat marigolds, will I get yellow skin?

Yes you will.If you eat too many beets you will pee red too.!! :daze:

Wyvrn
Mon, Jul-25-05, 14:25
There used to be some kind of fake tanning product in pill form - IIRC it was just a big dose of carotene.

Wyv

mcsblues
Mon, Jul-25-05, 16:58
I just saw the Good Eats episode about Chicken and the difference between Free Range and organic and typical commericial chicken. I learned a few things... probably the most exciting was how to butterfly a chicken and roast it on top of vegetables in 30 minutes! But equally exciting was the news that commercial growers don't use hormones or steroids on their chickens, it is, in fact illegal. It'd probably be a waste of money too since they mature very quickly anyway, due to breeding, and really only live a few months.


Hormones are as you say illegal (here too) but what you should be looking for is antibiotics - these are widely used in commercial farms - not for the chicken's health (or yours) so much as to promote unnatural rates of growth - which allow much earlier "processing". Antibiotic fed poultry can grow so fast that they are unable to walk.

So ideally you want true free range - a subject in itself - antibiotic and hormone free - and, if possible the free range food (grass and insects) supplemented with fish meal and/or flax seed (for better PUFA ratio) - as unless you get your poultry from a small old fashioned farm - "free range" will still be essentially grain or corn fed (very limited access, if any, to grass or insects).

Cheers,

Malcolm

ysabella
Mon, Jul-25-05, 19:29
Well, when it comes to eggs, you can tell whether they are truly free-range. I always buy the happy-chicken eggs; some are grain-fed, some are free-range.

You can tell by the yolk. A truly free-range chicken who eats bugs will lay an egg with an incredibly bright, nearly orange yolk. A grain-fed chicken is paler.

In fact, back in the day when eggs were regularly used as a binder in painting, when painting flesh tones of a man, painters would use a "country egg," for the ruddier tones it would give, and a "city egg" for paler, more delicate female skin tones.

There are eggs sold that claim a higher level of good fats. I've gotten those from time to time, but I don't look for them or anything. What we actually care about is, most of the happy-chicken eggs are grade A. There is one local brand that is grade AA, and that's what we get (cage free, not organic). Egg grades are totally based on freshness, and I have no clue why most of them are grade A).


Wyvrn, Fred Meyer carries some Coastal Organics chicken, but they don't always have it. And Top Foods carries a local farm's chicken. They sell a nice big tub of wing drummettes for makin' those hot wings. :yum: Yeah, I go to CostCo and stock up on meat and chicken, and got some really nice Copper River sockeye salmon last time.

The light/dark meat thing puzzles me...as a kid I loved dark meat, but currently I prefer white meat, although I'll eat dark meat. I keep hoping I'll get more of a taste for dark meat again. And, of course, I love the skin. I don't care if it's yellow or not.

Wyvrn
Mon, Jul-25-05, 21:07
I don't buy meat at Top after a couple of bad experiences there, in fact last time I got liver there it made us sick. And their prices are outrageous on the nice cuts! Like 14 bucks a pound for New York last time I was there. Great selection of brews, for what that's worth, but they store the fine imports and micros at room temp while the likes of Bud and Coors get the prime cooler space, which is just plain wrong.

Wyv

dane
Tue, Jul-26-05, 07:23
You can tell by the yolk. A truly free-range chicken who eats bugs will lay an egg with an incredibly bright, nearly orange yolk. A grain-fed chicken is paler. A grain-fed hen who is fed more corn/less soy will produce a more yellow yolk, and if you feed a grain-fed hen marigold leaves, she will produce that deep yellow yolk. Point--yolk color doesn't necessarily indicate grain-fed vs bug-fed. :)

There is one local brand that is grade AA, and that's what we get (cage free, not organic). Egg grades are totally based on freshness, and I have no clue why most of them are grade A). Local is the key word! Egg letter grading is freshness based, as you said. An egg fresh out of the chicken and cracked on a plate will have a very firm white, and a high, round yolk--an AA grade. With time, that same AA egg will start to flatten out, get runny, etc. The transition from AA to A is very fast....less than a day, I think? Then A to B is slower, and refrigeration halts the process somewhat.

Interesting posts, Ysa.

emmy207
Tue, Jul-26-05, 08:45
I eat free range chicken and eggs, I live in London so I appreciate they are easier to come by. I do feel alittle guilty about eating meat sometimes and if I at least know the animal did not live cooped up in a shed, I feel better about it.

Here if a chicken has yellow skin it is often a free rnage
corn fed chicken, which taste really good. I also like it when I get feathers in my egg carton too.

Nancy LC
Tue, Jul-26-05, 12:45
Yeah, they are given antibiotics, just looked it up. But it looks like some producers are experimenting with going without them.

grandpa
Wed, Jul-27-05, 12:28
I tried to teach my broilers to smoke hickory wood shavings to have a pre-smoked flavor - but they couldn't inhale very well without lips.

breed, feed and age all affect flavor and appearance of poultry meat and eggs. Without knowing these three things, it is hard to speculate as to the why the meat looks or tastes the way it does. I agree that most commercial poultry meat is pretty much the same breed feed and age - so you won't find much variation. (cornish cross, grain / plant, 6-7 weeks

Nancy LC
Wed, Jul-27-05, 12:51
Granpa, you a chicken man? :D

Do you give antibiotics in their feed? It sounds like that is a pretty uniform commercial standard.

grandpa
Wed, Jul-27-05, 15:05
Granpa, you a chicken man?

No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night... seriously though I studied it some in college (Animal Science Major).
Antibiotics are widely used is for a couple of reasons. If chicken farming isn't a "hobby" and it is your sole source of income the margins are so thin that you have to have the economy of scale by having a lot of chickens, and you want to be growing them year round. This means a controlled environment of heating, water and feed. This also means keeping as many as you can in the space you have. Chickens are susceptible to infections, and under these conditions, any problem will quickly infect all of them. Vets never treat an individual chicken under these conditions. You just couldn't keep an eye on thousands of birds. So as a prophylaxis measure, small doses of FDA approved antibiotics are added to the feed or water.
There certainly are valid concerns regarding the practice. It is ultimately consumer driven though as discussed here before. If enough of the public is willing to pay a little more for less intensive husbandry practices, it will fade away. Chicken is extremely cheap. I really doubt that an individual could raise their own and feed them a prepared feed and have meat much cheaper than is available in stores. But… it might be cheaper than what you would pay for antibiotic free chicken in a store.

Nancy LC
Wed, Jul-27-05, 15:33
Does that also help controll the samonella contamination in eggs? I remember reading that they've really got the contamination knocked down so it is pretty rare these days.

grandpa
Thu, Jul-28-05, 08:11
Nancy, in a nutshell - no, feeding antibiotics probably does not reduce the presence of salmonella.

several factors are contributing to the decreased incidence of salmonellosis in humans and preventing associated health problems for the chickens as well.

On the production side:
Sanitation, and management practices that reduce stress which can lower the resistance to infection (overcrowding, chilling and overheating of birds) But treating with antibiotics to prevent or treat doesn't produce good results.1

Processing practices:
Salmonella bacteria are spread in fecal material from all kinds of animals. They may also pick up bacteria from the soil or contaminated, processed feed. The organisms then live in the intestinal tract of the host and may, or may not have an effect on the animal. As the animals are slaughtered and processed, there are times when some of the bacteria from the intestines have the opportunity to contaminate the uncooked meat products.
Dry chilling is a good example of an improved practice. Instead of dipping the carcasses in chilled water which can transfer the bacteria from bird to bird, the bird carcass remain isolated from each other.

Consumer:
Education about handling raw meat, cross contamination to foods that won't be cooked and achieving proper cooking temperatures have also helped.

1 OSU extension publication f-0109 "bacterial Diseases of Poultry http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-2118/F-9109web.pdf

Nancy LC
Thu, Jul-28-05, 08:14
Interesting! Thanks for the chicken tutorial. :) They must be doing something different with the eggs too. Do the eggs contain samonella? Or is it introduced from the egg shell when you crack it open?

grandpa
Thu, Jul-28-05, 08:23
Nancy,
After re-reading your question, I realized that you were asking about eggs, not meat. except for the processing practices, the information would be similar.

Nancy LC
Thu, Jul-28-05, 08:27
Thanks, you're a treasure of Chicken Lore, Grandpa. :)

grandpa
Thu, Jul-28-05, 08:49
Nancy,
If the egg is relatively fresh, and the shell isn't cracked, any bacteria would be on the outside of the shell. Even if some made its way through the shell, it won't multiply much in the white. Now if the egg is really old, it is possible that the bacteria could make it to the nutrient rich yolk. (as an egg ages, the albumin breaks down - you may have noticed that really fresh eggs have more of the thick high white when fried, and sometimes the white is runny and spreads out or some combination of the two - this is due to the age of the egg)

Commercial eggs are cleaned and disinfected to further reduce the chances of fecal bacteria remaining on them. To be safe, never use a cracked egg. When buying eggs besides looking for obviously broken or cracked shells, check the Sell by date. Getting the ones with the farthest into the future will mean the freshest eggs. But if you are going to boil them, very fresh eggs are hard to peel. Older ones peel easier because there is more air between the shell and the shell membrane. Plus no worries about bacteria because the whole egg including shell is heated before opening.

Nancy LC
Thu, Jul-28-05, 11:36
Cool! Its good to know they can't get inside an uncracked shell. I've heard about pasturized eggs too, for making things calling for raw eggs. Like mousse!

I've learned to use a spoon to peel fresh HB eggs. Works really great!

Nancy LC
Fri, Jul-29-05, 08:26
Hey... lookie here, kind of timely: FDA bans use of antibiotics in poultry

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-07-28-antibiotic-usat_x.htm

grandpa
Fri, Jul-29-05, 08:40
I don't mean to dampen enthusiasm, but it has only banned one type of antibiotic, Baytril, which isn't widely used in the poultry industry. It was a "last resort" treatment. Still, this is good news. The development of resistant strains is a very serious public health issue. And apparently in this case the resistant strains are passed on to some humans through eating the chicken. Serious health risk to consumers is the last thing the industry needs.

Nancy LC
Fri, Jul-29-05, 09:03
I can understand how devastating it must be to have a infection rampage through your chickens, but it seems like that must be a side-effect of crowding them together indoors.

ysabella
Fri, Jul-29-05, 11:26
I recall, when I was living in the Netherlands, there was a news story about an experimental agricultural project at one of the universities - it was going to be a livestock 'hi-rise' sort of thing with an enormous number, thousands, of pigs and chickens. This caused outcry: That's too extreme! If an infection develops you'll have to slaughter thousands of animals!

Well, the Netherlands is about twice the size of New Jersey and has more than 16 million people. If you don't want agricultural science to try to keep up with the demand for meat, stop eating ham, all of y'all.

Maddy
Sun, Aug-21-05, 05:48
I just noticed this discussion and thought I'd add!

I live in the UK and recently watched a documentary about chicken farming. They showed you the farms where they keep chickens indoors and feed them up so that they develop earlier than they should.

Their bodies grew large too quickly for their legs and often their underdeveloped legs couldn't support them anymore and they lay, crippled, in their own urine. This was reflected with two brown spots "ammonia burns" on the backs of their legs. I have checked out the chickens in all of my local stores and they all carry these marks.

They also conducted analysis on the chicken meat and due to the way they are fed the meat is actually not lean meat but fatty meat; causing more of an unbalance in Omega6 to Omega3 in the diet.

I have stopped buying chicken now except for free range chicken.