Research: Teens fuzzy on definition of large

[Dodger]

By Jeannine Stein
Los Angeles Times
Posted May 22 2005

Americans are getting larger -- that message seems hard to ignore. Yet, for a generation that has come of age amid growing waistlines, the definition of "large" may be a bit fuzzy.

When asked in a recent study to evaluate their size, many participating high school students rated themselves as slimmer than they actually were. The teens' body mass index showed that 47 percent were overweight or at risk of becoming overweight, but only 22 percent perceived themselves as overweight.

About 1.5 percent of the students were underweight or at risk of becoming underweight, yet 35 percent saw themselves that way. About 51 percent were normal weight, and 43 percent saw themselves as normal weight. "In doing the survey, I found that there was this huge misperception going on among these kids," says lead researcher Nancy Brener, research psychologist in the division of adolescent and school health at the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta. "Although almost half of them were overweight or at risk of overweight, very few perceived themselves that way. I didn't expect it."

The study, published in the November 2004 Obesity Research journal, was based on a survey of about 2,000 U.S. students in grades nine through 12. About 53 percent were girls, and 47 percent boys. Although students were not asked to explain the description of themselves, Brener has some theories.

"I think the main thing is what students are using as a reference point in their weight perception," she says, namely, a population in the midst of an obesity crisis. "If everyone's getting heavier, it's almost like there's a new standard."

Although the survey included a larger percentage of black teens (41 percent) than is in the general population, Brener says other groups probably display this discrepancy between self-image and actual weight, although perhaps not to the same degree. (Studies have shown that black women can have very positive body images even when they perceive themselves as overweight.)

"When you're among the thinner of your peers or family, then you might say, `I'm about the right weight' or `I'm underweight,'" Brener says. "There's sort of a shift in the norm based on what people see."

Observing how teens, especially girls, dress seems to support Brener's findings. Many unself-consciously wear cropped tops revealing rolls of stomach flab, low-slung pants that emphasize large hips, and sleeveless blouses showing chubby arms.

Other researchers suggest that teenagers are more realistic about their body size than they may seem.

It could be that such clothing is all that's available, says Kristen Harrison, assistant professor in the speech and communications department at the University of Illinois. Or teens might be wearing the clothes "out of a sense of rebellion."

"There are certainly some young women who think they look good," she says, "and maybe they get positive feedback -- or get negative feedback and don't care."

Donna Mitroff, adjunct professor at the University of Southern California's Annenberg School for Communication, says that images of music and film stars have played a role in how teenagers dress.

"They're so influenced by the media images of people like Britney Spears and Brandy that it's necessary to adjust your self-perception in order to find it acceptable to dress the way your peer group is dressing," she says.

Brener suggests that a solution to the self-perception problem might be "making these teenagers mindful of what the standard is," perhaps through a doctor's intervention. "If you can make them realize they're overweight, they might be more inclined to take steps to lose weight."

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/features/lifestyle/sfl-largeteensmay22,0,1379054.story?coll=sfla-features-headlines

[mammac-5]

I see this all the time but was afraid I was just being bitchy! I have daughters who are 14 and 16 so I spend some time around their friends, school activities, etc. I am amazed by what I see these days on "heavy" girls. Now, let me say first that I was a heavy teenage girl. I always tried to dress in a way that minimized my self-inflicted flaws and emphasized my better physical qualities. In other words my belly was always covered (that's where I tend to carry extra fat), I wore only one-piece bathing suits, I wore tops that skimmed over the belly area rather than anything tight and I played up things like my great hair, pretty eyes, manicure & pedicure, etc.

I think moms don't talk about this stuff with the girls anymore. Seems like they just go out of the house looking *however* with no guidance. Doesn't anybody ever look at their selections in the dressing room and veto them? Are we all afraid we're going to bruise someone's all-important self-esteem if we give them a gentle but honest assessment of what flatters them and what does not?

Yesterday I was in a store with my 14 YO daughter. We are all big people-watchers in our family and I could tell we were both observing a couple of older girls (17, 18??) in the check-out line next to ours. They were both "heavy" but not what you'd call obese or anything. Out of shape, really. Both had on spaghetti-strap tops that were so tight you could see the outline of their belly-button rings. There was at least a couple-inch space between their tops and their pants that was chubbiness I personally wouldn't want to be showing off.

I guess I just don't know why moms (especially moms of younger girls who obviously hold the pursestrings) don't say something to these girls. "Honey, I like those low-cut jeans, too, but they are really made for girls with narrow hips and small behinds...girls like us with junk in the trunk just can't get away with that" OR "Yeah, spaghetti strap tops are cute for wearing around the house and yard but girls like you with D-cup breasts really need more support than that" OR "Sweetheart, those midriff-bearing tops can really only look great on someone with Fergie's abs".

Okay...off my maternal soapbox now...

[Angeline]

I'm torn on the subject. You would never see me walking around with my love handles oozing out of my pants exposed for all the world to see.

On the other hand, those girls don't seem to care. That they don't care means that no one at school points at them and makes fun of them.

Physical form is a very cultural thing. There are some areas in Africa where being called fat will make women blush with pleasure. Skinny girls despair and worry that they will never find a husband. Girls eat strange concoctions designed to make themselves gain weight.

What we see here is a culture clash or more aptly, a generation gap.

Maybe there is something positive to be said that girls don't have the same hang ups about being skinny than our generation have.

[Nancy LC]

I actually find it is a good sign that girls feel freer to dress however they want despite their imperfections. We've been held to such incredibly ridiculous standards of beauty and have been so hyper-critical of ourselves as a result. Although I don't think everyone getting super fat is good, I think the body image is much, much healthier in girls. Or at least, I hope so.

Yesterday I was in a store with my 14 YO daughter. We are all big people-watchers in our family and I could tell we were both observing a couple of older girls (17, 18??) in the check-out line next to ours. They were both "heavy" but not what you'd call obese or anything. Out of shape, really. Both had on spaghetti-strap tops that were so tight you could see the outline of their belly-button rings. There was at least a couple-inch space between their tops and their pants that was chubbiness I personally wouldn't want to be showing off.

Well, I'd say that the girls you're critical of are actually showing signs of a much healthier body image than I probably have. I'm so damn uptight about how I look I refuse to wear shorts.

Sadly my Mom probably would have turned to me and said something negative about how those girls looked, which in turn cemented my own insecurities.

There's a young woman where I work that is heavy and dresses this way too. I have to catch myself critiquing her and correct the tape playing in my head and change it to, "She's lucky that she is ok enough with herself and her body to wear what she wants".

[Lisa N]

Like Angeline, I'm also a little torn on the subject. While as a teen I would never have walked around in a tube top with rolls hanging over my jeans, that's my idea of what is and is not acceptable. A factor in that is also what my peers would have said and found acceptable in that as well (hint, I would have wound up leaving wherever I was in abject humilation in those days due to the comments I would have received).
OTOH, I'm not sure that telling a teen that unless they have narrow hips or a tiny behind that they have 'junk in their trunk' is a good message to be sending, either.

I think moms don't talk about this stuff with the girls anymore. Seems like they just go out of the house looking *however* with no guidance.

Well...as much as I would like to believe that my opinion carries great weight with my daughters, I'm afraid that the truth is that the opinion of their peers carries greater weight than what I think when it comes to fashion.
Having said that, we do have some general guidelines when it comes to what they are allowed to wear in public and enforce a certain amount of modesty. Other than that, my general sentiment is, "If you want to be seen in public that way, it's up to you." ;)
Maybe it's not so much a matter of 'no guidance' as that many moms simply decide that the battle isn't worth it.

[MoNoCarb]

I would have been devastated if my mother said something to me like mamma-c is suggesting when I was a teenager. As it was, ANY mention of my extra poundage sent me straight into total depression and occasionally bulemic acting out. If things have changed such that girls aren't desperately aware and horribly insecure about being overweight, then thank god. When I was a teen, I was all too aware of how fat I was (even though I was simply at the top of the normal range of the height and weight charts).

[potatofree]

I don't think there's ANY way to try and tell your child "You're too fat to wear that" without hurting their feelings. It's one thing to disapprove of clothing styles and not let your kids wear them, as in "That style shows a lot more skin than I feel a person should show." but to tell your daughter basically that things look GREAT on skinny girls, but she's too fat and basically her body is too ugly to expose...well, yes, I think the self-esteem IS "all-important" enough to not have to hear it from her own mother.

I'm not fond of the current style extremes on ANYBODY, just for the record. My daughter didn't give me a whole lot of resistance on the rules I had in place regarding clothes, but there was some debate. It was pretty much like Lisa said. If the basic rules were followed, it was up to her what she was comfortable in.

[potatofree]

Okay... got sidetracked. :lol: What I was GOING to say...

It does strike me as odd the way the size of your family or peer group can affect how you see your own size, either heavy or skinny.

If you, at 200 lbs., are the "skinny one" in your family, that has to color your perception, especially if you have extended family who are mostly big. I went from my family of origin, who are all heavier than average, to marrying into a family where skinny was the norm. Culture shock! :lol:

Conversely, you see and hear a lot of groups of women (mainly) who end up getting too THIN after one or two of them try to lose weight, then the rest of the group diets down because they feel "too big"..... I wonder if that's the same concept?

[Nancy LC]

Oddly enough, I have memories of believing I was fat when I was young. I think I was briefly a little chubby at the end of high school and beginning of college. But I remember being embarassed about my weight when I was in grade school, and I was skinny! It wasn't really until I got out of college that the weight started coming on.

[Monika4]

I started reading this and was shocked how the scientist and the first viewers reacted - I agree with those "torn". Over and over we know that criticizing teens in their 14, 15 year old very insecure states is counterproductive. My 13 year old whom I was worried about a year ago has gained a huge amount recently - she has "pregnancy" like stripes on her legs, and is now clearly chubby inspite of playing soccer 3 x a week and having gym at school 4 x a week. Well, she eats 3 slices of pizza for Lunch! Even hints get very very strong negative reactions, and I remember hating my teenage years mainly because my mom kept bugging me about avoiding the Nutella etc. She is very active, and there is a good chance that she will shoot up again in size shortly - if she does, all will be fine, if not, she may decide in due time to reduce carb intake - she knows what to do by example (me), not by being criticized. My older one also was chubby just before she shot, and now she is about 140 lb at 5'7" and looks great.

I think the only way to deal with teenage obesity is by example, and by limiting opportunities, not by parents trying to bring up the subject openly. Starting to criticize is definitely counterproductive in my opinion. Don't have softdrinks all over middle and high schools, don't have a choice of pizza or subs for Lunch but chicken and veggies as well, have water and low fat milk and other options in vending machines too!

[mammac-5]

Let me emphasize that I do not criticize my teenage daughters' sizes. I do, however, speak to them realistically about fashion, who designs it, who it's designed for, who it's market toward, etc. Clothes which are designed and cut for women with no hips (and we all know there are those particular styles out there) are not flattering to women who are shaped like real women! That goes for women who are a size 8 but "hippy" or a size 20 and "hippy". There are lots of clothes that are not a bit flattering on me because I have A-cup breasts; my daughters are a C- and D-cup and look good in tops that require a little more shape to look right. Even though I've lost lots of weight I still have large "jiggly" upper arms and I don't wear sleeveless tops for that very reason. I can't do them justice! My daughters each can and do.

It's not a matter of criticizing my daughters by any means and they do not perceive it that way. It's about reality. Clothes cut for manequins generally only flatter manequins and I think it's important to teach our children to find those features about themselves that are most attractive and about which they are most proud and to play up those attributes. It may (for some reason unknown to me) be unpopular to say so, but jiggly rolls of belly fat are not really very attractive to most people in our culture and no one should be proud of giving into gluttonous tendencies on a regular-enough-basis to maintain unhealthy overweight.

[VALEWIS]

I have to agree with most of the posters here..I was horrified at how the researcher's comments reinforce cultural stereotypes and preoccupation with appearance. I think that dressing how they like without worrying about what 'suits' them is psychologically healthy. It seems to me that as parents, the emphasis should be on their health, not on their love handles showing. As someone mentioned, in certain cultures, having excess flab might be seen as beautiful, so showing them off would be perfectly acceptable. It is because we don't accept it as attactive that there is a 'problem'. If your kid eats too many carbs, it is her health I would be worried about, not whether she is wearing clothes of a certain type. The mannequins those clothes were 'designed for' might be seen as ugly in Tonga.

The clothes industry is driven by people who make money from people wanting to have a certain appearance and so our preoccupation with appearance keeps them financial. Mind you, I think clothes, jewelry and makeup are fun, and I think the kids wearing short tops and other such these days is part of that.

Val

[Lisa N]

Mammac...a question if I may? What standard do you use to determine what constitutes 'flattering' and what doesn't?
It occurs to me that what you are desribing are very much cultural and even generational ideas of what does and doesn't look 'right' on a person.

I'll give you an example from my own experience. My mom grew up when the 'ideal' was to have a 24 inch waist. Anything larger than that, in her way of thinking, was fat. Imagine her dismay at having a daughter that, even at 112 pounds and 5' 3" tall, had a 29 inch waist. In her way of thinking, I was fat no matter what the scale said because my natural body shape didn't conform to her idea of what 'thin' was and she had no problem with telling me so as well as telling me that a girl 'my size' had no business wearing a 2 piece bathing suit. In today's culture, however, I'd be considered 'hot' on the beach, not someone who should be embarassed to be seen in public, at that weight and size.
There are extremes on both ends of the spectrum. One extreme doesn't care about how they look and the other extreme is so paranoid about showing a roll of fat that you practically consign yourself to walking around in a burka for fear of offending someone with your 'self inflicted flaws'.
Somewhere in between lies sanity.
Maybe this is the confidence of age and maybe it's unexpressed rebellion from my teens, but IMO life is far too short to spend time worrying about what someone else thinks of what I'm wearing. If I like it and I'm comfortable being seen in it (assuming I'm not violating any public indecency laws), what someone else thinks of it is their problem.

[VALEWIS]

Well said, Lisa N. I was a teenager when that requirement for a 22 inch waist was all the go..some girls actually wore real corsets to achieve this. I agree as I said in my previous post, that this preoccupation with appearance and with what is considered 'flattering' is totally relative to culture and period of history. Think of Edwardian times, when thin women were caricaturized as witches and plump ladies made themselves look plumper with bustles...

So lets think about health, not appearance, and lets congratulate those young girls who are allowing their rolls of excess to be viewed as they choose...to my eyes, they are behaving in a manner that suggests that they are more liberated than we were and not as chained to constantly shifting, culturally situated notions of what is 'appropriate.' or 'flattering.'

Having said that, I agree with Mammac-5 that being a good role model in terms of eating, exercise and health choices is where its at.

Interesting discussion, and thanks Mammac-5 for bringing this research to our attention. It certainly illustrates how POV's can differ.

Val

[Kagior]

Brener suggests that a solution to the self-perception problem might be "making these teenagers mindful of what the standard is," perhaps through a doctor's intervention. "If you can make them realize they're overweight, they might be more inclined to take steps to lose weight."


I can't believe they actually said this. These kids know that they are carrying around alittle extra, or even a lot, but they don't care as much as my generation did. Good for them! Telling them they are overweight without including information on how to eat properly (NOT the food guide!) is like handing them a grenade with the pin already pulled.

Back in the early 80's, when I was a teenager, most of my friends were slim. Most of them because they had not yet finished developing. I always felt like the fat one because at 5'1" and 120 pounds, I was curvier than they were. My BMI was too high and when I found out that for my height, I was fat, I started not eating properly. Starving myself and breaking my "diet" by eating crap, instead of continuing to eat properlay and just cut back on the junky foods, bread and sugar. As it turns out, they adjusted the BMI's a few years later, and guess what? 120 was within normal range for my height. Given that I was and still am fairly muscular, I wasn't really fat after all. I had no real belly fat at the time, just curvy and soft like a girl is supposed to be. I would have looked great in those low slung jeans. I wish I had known.

I am appalled that many people want to go back to telling people that if they don't measure up, they aren't good enough and should do something about it. The problem is that the junk foods are even more prevalent now than when I was a teen. I am happy for these girls, that they wear what they want and have a good self-image. However, I am disgusted by the messages in our society that say to eat the crap, then turn around and say people are too fat.

[Megsy81]

I say as long as these girls are healthy and in their healthy weight range, then they can wear what they like, as that comes down to personal choice. But if they are overweight then these girls do need to be told, in the right manner and way of course" as the article said these girls ideas of what is "a healthy body" is becoming more distorted as the populations weight problem grows, they look at each other for what's normal and if more and more are becoming obese then the girls that are just overweight will think they are healthy. It seems the obesity problem is like a snowball, the problem keeps growing and effecting more and more people. It is so hard to get the message across of what's healthy society seems to go from one extreme to another, the magazines shows unrealistic girls at unrealistic weights, and so girls when they can't acheive that have blow outs and tend not to care at all about their weight I have known many girls that have the attitude of " well if I can't look like that then i'm not going to try at all", vicious cycle!!!!

[ojoj]

As much as I admire these teenagers for their confidence to wear some of these revealing clothes, I dont think it looks very nice and people do stare.. sadly for the wrong reasons.

But maybe society is changing and it will soon be rare to see slim girls and they'll be the ones folk tend to stare at for the wrong reasons?? Being slim will become old fashioned.... maybe??

Jo

[AJCole]

First, I would like to point out that this study was based on the BMI, which has problems of its own. Athletic people tend toward the overweight side, and there is no consideration for body fat percentage. So in my mind this study is meaningless.

Now, I am white. I am a pear. I have an 18 yo daughter. And I wear low rise pants. But I am married to a black man. In African American culture, a woman with no belly fat (like me, I have none on the belly, though my thighs need work:)), and with a large round behind and thick thighes is the ideal. I think low rise are made for curvy pears, not women with thin thighes and no butt. Trust me on this, men like curvy women, and African American culture is influencing American culture more everyday. This study had a higher then normal percentage of African American teenagers in it, and it shows in the numbers. In the African American culture, a women is fat if her belly is fat, not her butt or thighes.

Funny, but isn't belly fat the most dangerous anyway?

[DietSka]

As a teenager I was among the chubbier ones yet I wore whatever the thin girls wore. It's bad enough to be fat as a teenager but it's even worse to be fat AND dressed differently -- the double whammy of unpopularity. It's not about confidence or lack of awareness regarding body size, it's about fitting in.

[Nancy LC]

I think women are far, far to preoccupied with how they look. It makes them vain, insecure and destroys their confidence, which, as was mentioned in another thread recently, is what really makes people sexy and attractive.

[HollyAyott]

It's not a matter of criticizing my daughters by any means and they do not perceive it that way. It's about reality.

Who's reality is it??

I am 24 now and at 190 I still wear the same things I wore when I was 18 and 120, obvioulsy in a bigger size but not any diffrent style.

I go out with my friends to clubs and see girls bigger than me in less clothes than me, and I never think oh shes fat she cant wear that I say good for her, shes proud of her body and loves her self regardless of the size her pants say.

I think from what your saying your very judgemental and probably giving your daughters a weight complex. Get over it, this is reality, not everyones a size 2, not every one has Fergi's Abs. And not everyone is ever going to have a firm toned body, to not buy something you like becuase you think your arms are jiggly is just silly. Love your self jiggly arms and all.

My Motto: If they make it in my size I am going to wear it!

[CindyG]

My Motto: If they make it in my size I am going to wear it!

I'm with you on this one Holly, and have a comment. I think it's the "size" thing that is an issue for some girls. Heck I wear low rise boot cut or flare jeans in a size 24 but you'll never see fat rolls hanging over or underwear showing. That's because I get the right *size*. I could squeeze into a 22 and possibly a 20, but that would cause my rolls to show and my rear to hang out. So I wear the 24s. And ya know what, those darn jeans look better on me than any other jeans in my size.

I think there is a ton of pressure for girls to be thin and I'd bet money that's why lots of girls cram themselves into jeans two sizes to small. It's all about the pressure to be skinny. And not just a healthy weight, just super skinny.

[potatofree]

And not just a healthy weight, just super skinny.

Bingo! Look at all the scrawny actresses/singers/models being held up as examples to girls. When you figure that a lot of them allegedly resort to a finger down the throat or cocaine up the nose to GET that bony as has been alleged of Mary-Kate Olsen and a few others... and the label "healthy" has been twisted into a pseudonym for "fat" in the tabloids, any wonder why a lot of girls don't care much about what a diet will do to them in their middle age? Nope. They want to be what they see in the pages of the magazines, NOW!

I know I'd actually rather have a chubby girl with her rolls hanging out than have to take my daughter to treatment for an eating disorder.

[relliott1]

Bravo to the girls who have a healthy enough body image to wear what they want! When I was a teen, I was convinced I was fat. I was not fat, I weighed about 125 at 5' 3" and wore a size 5-7, but I was convinced that I was. Instead of wearing nice clothes that fit me, I wore leggings and HUGE oversized shirts that hid what I thought was "fat".... what that fat really was were some very nice, curvy breasts and hips. I got the idea they were fat and not normal or acceptable when my grandmother innocently made the comment that I needed to start watching what I ate so that I didn't gain "any more weight". One single comment made me convinced I was fat for several years. I wish I had been aware of how good I looked at the time. It was difficult to find clothes I liked that I still felt did a good job of hiding my "fat". :(

Girls are given SO MANY mixed messages about their bodies, and even the most innocent of comments (like my grandmothers) can lead to years of trouble. I sincerely believe that if I had not spent so long being so concerned about how "fat" I was as a teen, I would not have the weight problems I do as an adult. One comment put me there. Girls today are subjected to a lot more than that on a daily basis. If they can wade through all the crap and still feel good enough about themselves to dress in the latest fashions, then more power to them! It has taken me 28 years and a loss of 85 lbs to get to that point. In a way, I envy them!

Robin

[Lisa N]

I know I'd actually rather have a chubby girl with her rolls hanging out than have to take my daughter to treatment for an eating disorder.

Hear, hear! Having been headed down that road with my then eight your old daughter (thanks to her school and her peers), I'll take a chubby little tummy under a tube top over getting scary skinny any day.
I would never suggest to either of my daughters that they are 'too fat' to wear a particular style or that some less-than-perfect body part should be kept hidden or camoflaged. Kids that age are insecure enough with having to think, "Wow...I must look bad. Even my mom thinks I should hide that.." Their peers will let them know quickly and in no uncertain terms whether they are dressed appropriately or not. ;)

As I said before, as long as it's not showing body parts that shouldn't be seen in public and will add and it fits properly, the styles they want to wear are up to them.
OTOH, if it's insanely expensive, they're also going to be coughing up some of their allowance money or babysitting/getting a part time job to buy it. I'm not about to be spending more money on their clothes than I would on my own just because it's the 'hottest' fashion at that particular second. ;)

[potatofree]

Lisa-- I used to give my daughter what a pair of jeans cost at Target. If she wanted to buy the expensive ones, she had to make up the difference. She STILL shops at Target. :lol:

I'm sometimes torn between "Good for you!" and "My God, cover that UP!" when it comes to fashion. I'm conservative myself, and I don't think ANYONE needs to be walking down the street in next to nothing, skinny or fat. I've seen plenty of girls and women wearing the skimpy clothes for the "fun" of it, but I see a lot more who seem to be just out to get whatever attention they can. It gets to be like one of those Maury Povich episodes, where the kids are so mortified at their mother wearing a string bikini to the grocery store, they call in a fashion intervention. :lol:

[Lisa N]

It gets to be like one of those Maury Povich episodes, where the kids are so mortified at their mother wearing a string bikini to the grocery store, they call in a fashion intervention.

:lol: :lol: Somehow I don't think either of my daughters will have to worry about their mom wearing a string bikini to the grocery store. I'm pretty conservative about my clothing choices as well.

[Klodo2]

On one hand, I see those girls too, and they really don't do themselves any favours dressing like that. It's just not becoming. But then again, I think the current batch of teenagers are terribly exhibitionistic with their low-rise jeans, crop tops, piercings and tattoos. The pendulum will swing the other way again, I'm sure, but I do find the generous display of flesh common and unattractive, no matter what the size.

On the other hand, reading something like this makes me very uncomfortable:

"Honey, I like those low-cut jeans, too, but they are really made for girls with narrow hips and small behinds...girls like us with junk in the trunk just can't get away with that" OR "Yeah, spaghetti strap tops are cute for wearing around the house and yard but girls like you with D-cup breasts really need more support than that" OR "Sweetheart, those midriff-bearing tops can really only look great on someone with Fergie's abs".
That just seems cruel and unnecessary to me. Sorry, mammac-5, I don't mean to pick on you, and I'm sure you have the best of intentions, but I just hear about so many perfectly normal and healthy little girls on diets and heading for eating disorders later in life because their mothers keep harping on about them being too heavy.

Don't get me wrong, no daughter of mine is going out with T&A on display (or belly, for that matter) while I have anything to say about it, but it won't be because of anything to do with weight, just decency.

[mammac-5]

Mammac...a question if I may? What standard do you use to determine what constitutes 'flattering' and what doesn't?
It occurs to me that what you are desribing are very much cultural and even generational ideas of what does and doesn't look 'right' on a person.

I'll give you an example from my own experience. My mom grew up when the 'ideal' was to have a 24 inch waist. Anything larger than that, in her way of thinking, was fat. Imagine her dismay at having a daughter that, even at 112 pounds and 5' 3" tall, had a 29 inch waist. In her way of thinking, I was fat no matter what the scale said because my natural body shape didn't conform to her idea of what 'thin' was and she had no problem with telling me so as well as telling me that a girl 'my size' had no business wearing a 2 piece bathing suit. In today's culture, however, I'd be considered 'hot' on the beach, not someone who should be embarassed to be seen in public, at that weight and size.
There are extremes on both ends of the spectrum. One extreme doesn't care about how they look and the other extreme is so paranoid about showing a roll of fat that you practically consign yourself to walking around in a burka for fear of offending someone with your 'self inflicted flaws'.
Somewhere in between lies sanity.
Maybe this is the confidence of age and maybe it's unexpressed rebellion from my teens, but IMO life is far too short to spend time worrying about what someone else thinks of what I'm wearing. If I like it and I'm comfortable being seen in it (assuming I'm not violating any public indecency laws), what someone else thinks of it is their problem.


Honestly, I probably got my standards of what is flattering from my own upbringing...not sure where else I would get them from! I don't follow fashion magazines or popular culture much...I try to know just enough to be able to have conversation with my girls about who's who and who's dating who -- you know, stuff they're interested in. Mostly I could care less.

As for my own advising of my daughters, I will continue to refuse to allow my almost-15-year-old to wear the clothes she wants because they are unflattering. And possibly sleazy, but I'm a very religious person and that may be coming from that part of my brain. She is a size 20 and weighs approx 250 lbs. She carries a lot of her excess weight in her belly like her mother. She wants to wear low-rise jeans, which leave her with a big old belly roll hanging over. In my mind this is very unflattering and she looks much better in more "conservative" styles. In addition she wears a 42D bra...something I'd like to de-emphasize in my 15-year-old because grown men sometimes gawk at her in public...I can just imagine teenage boys at school! So I don't allow her to wear spaghetti strap tops with a "shelf bra" that do not afford nearly the support she needs at her size.

Anyway, I may be just digging myself a deeper hole since many (most?) here seem to feel I should let her (and her older sister) wear whatever they feel like wearing as long as they have the "confidence" to pull it off. I respectfully disagree.

[MoNoCarb]

Mammac

I don't think you should let them wear what they want, I guess I just reacted to your description of how you would tell them not to wear revealing clothing.

I think it is perfectly appropriate to not allow your 15 year old to wear spaghetti straps with the shelf bra because it doesn't give her chest the support it needs and grown men are gawking at her.

Instead of saying that she needs to cover up because her body is wrong for the clothes (but another girl would be fine in it), why can't you enphasise that the clothes send the wrong message to others and you would prefer that she dress more modestly.

Then you are saying not - you're too fat for these clothes, but rather - you are too good for these clothes.

[Dodger]

Mammac

I don't think you should let them wear what they want, I guess I just reacted to your description of how you would tell them not to wear revealing clothing.

I think it is perfectly appropriate to not allow your 15 year old to wear spaghetti straps with the shelf bra because it doesn't give her chest the support it needs and grown men are gawking at her.

Instead of saying that she needs to cover up because her body is wrong for the clothes (but another girl would be fine in it), why can't you enphasise that the clothes send the wrong message to others and you would prefer that she dress more modestly.

Then you are saying not - you're too fat for these clothes, but rather - you are too good for these clothes.

Very good idea MoNoCarb. I have learned a lot from reading the threads on this site.

[VALEWIS]

Its a tough call, isn't it..after all, most adolescents are desperate to conform to whatever the acceptable clothing styles are in their group. So for some, wearing revealing clothing is all the go, and having to dress differently will make the kid stand out..a fate worse than death for lots of kids in this age bracket. LOL I remember when I went to a uniformed boarding school back in the 50's, we had to wear these dorky caps (berets)..these could be made bearable by making them like flat pancakes and pinning them on. But sometimes our matrons would make us wear them pulled down over our heads so that they came to the eyebrows...ugh! I can remember feeling mortified at appearing in public like that. We also got our pleated uniform skirts shortened above the knees (we wore leggings) and that looked really cute...but no, we would be admonished that this was too revealing for young ladies and were made to lower them again...sigh. How we wished to be adults when we could choose to dress as we wanted to..

I think I dislike all the body piercings more than the exposed young flab myself....

But here's the best story...one arty friend of mine dealt with her burgeoning teenagers' dress issues by pre-empting them. She dyed her hair three colours, pierced her nose and wore funny outfits. Her kids were so mortified that they chose to dress conservatively and were model kids. A bit like the daughter in Ab Fab.


Val