multi-vitamins

[Amelia Lem]

I'm confused. I've heard that you should combine
multi-vitamins with proper diet and exercise, but I've also
heard that multi-vitamins are a waste of money because you're
body can't absorb most of the vitamins that are in the pill,
or that the multi-vitamins are incomplete. I'm trying to get
healthy again and I know that I'm not getting enough of some
vitamins and minerals through my diet, and I've also started
to get muscle cramps during exercise. How do I know which
mult-vitamin works, and which doesn't? Is it possible to be
getting enough of a certain vitamin through diet and then OD
by taking a multi? My guess is probably not, but it never
hurts to ask...

--
Message posted via http://www.medkb.com

[George Lag]

"Amelia Lemon via MedKB.com" <forum@nospam.MedKB.com> wrote:
> I'm confused. I've heard that you should combine
> multi-vitamins with
proper
> diet and exercise, but I've also heard that multi-vitamins
> are a waste of money because you're body can't absorb most
> of the vitamins that are in
the
> pill, or that the multi-vitamins are incomplete. I'm trying
> to get healthy again and I know that I'm not getting enough
> of some vitamins and minerals through my diet, and I've
> also started to get muscle cramps during exercise. How do I
> know which mult-vitamin works, and which doesn't? Is it
> possible to be getting enough of a certain vitamin through
> diet and then
OD
> by taking a multi? My guess is probably not, but it never
> hurts to ask...

A very good multi-vitamin is MegaFood (Alpha) .
Also the Standard Process brand is very good.

[Ommanipadm]

In article <e625b8a39dec4e61a590285d66539d9e@MedKB.com>,
"Amelia Lemon via MedKB.com" <forum@nospam.MedKB.com> wrote:

> I'm confused. I've heard that you should combine
> multi-vitamins with proper diet and exercise, but I've also
> heard that multi-vitamins are a waste of money because
> you're body can't absorb most of the vitamins that are in
> the pill, or that the multi-vitamins are incomplete. I'm
> trying to get healthy again and I know that I'm not getting
> enough of some vitamins and minerals through my diet, and
> I've also started to get muscle cramps during exercise. How
> do I know which mult-vitamin works, and which doesn't? Is it
> possible to be getting enough of a certain vitamin through
> diet and then OD by taking a multi? My guess is probably
> not, but it never hurts to ask...

It will never hurt you to take a good multi-mineral as long as
you follow dosage recommendations on the bottle.

While it IS possible to overdose on some vitamins, you really
have to work at it to do it, even with supplements. ;-)

As for your cramping, you are probably running low on calcium.
Do NOT take calcium pills by themselves! I made that mistake
and learned from
it. I was told by a very good MD that was into nutritional
therapy to take a BALANCED multi-mineral that contained
calcium, magnesium and phosphorous. I currently use "Now"
brand. Inexpensive but excellent.

How much water do you drink? Dehydration during excersize can
also cause cramping.

Suggested reading: The vitamin bible by Earl Mindell. I've had
a LOT of luck following his advice on nutritional therapy! I
don't suffer from Sciatic pain anymore. It was nearly
crippling me at one point.

Who would have thought it was a mineral deficiency??????

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0446607029/002--
0579701-4263 216?v=glance

Cheers!
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a
son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson

[John Sanke]

"I've also heard that multi-vitamins are a waste of money
because you're body can't absorb most of the vitamins that are
in the pill, or that the multi-vitamins are incomplete."

Both will be true if you are eating anything like a healthy
diet. See http://sankey.ws/dietpills.html for what I found
when I analysed my diet. If you analyse your diet, you will
almost certainly find that you are getting enough of most
vitamins and minerals and the excess provided by a general
purpose pill is of no use to you. Multivitamins sell on price,
so contain lots of the cheapest nutrients and skimp on or omit
the expensive ones.

For example, visit http://sankey.ws/dietref.html take a look
at the nutrient list in the left column, then check how many
of them are listed in the multivitamin you are considering.

"I've also started to get muscle cramps during exercise."

Your body is telling you it's short of something - there are
very few nutrients whose lack causes muscle cramps and you
ought to focus on those. Ask a sports doctor or a professional
nutritionist to advise you.

"Is it possible to be getting enough of a certain vitamin
through diet and then OD by taking a multi?"

There are very few nutrients that are toxic in excess, and an
ordinary multivitamin will not have that much.

[NoOption5L]

Amelia Lemon via MedKB.com wrote:

Just eat a varied diet that includes fresh fruit and
vegetables, whole grains, lean meats, some dairy, nuts, seeds
and plenty of water and you'll get more than plenty of
vitamins and minerals.

The muscle cramps could be simply from "trying to get healthy
again". If you're returning to an exercise program it'll take
a while for your body to adjust to the increased demands.
Start easy and slowly build up the intensity of your workout
program... and remember to stay hydrated.

Patrick

> I'm confused. I've heard that you should combine
> multi-vitamins with proper diet and exercise, but I've also
> heard that multi-vitamins are a waste of money because
> you're body can't absorb most of the vitamins that are in
> the pill, or that the multi-vitamins are incomplete. I'm
> trying to get healthy again and I know that I'm not getting
> enough of some vitamins and minerals through my diet, and
> I've also started to get muscle cramps during exercise. How
> do I know which mult-vitamin works, and which doesn't? Is it
> possible to be getting enough of a certain vitamin through
> diet and then OD by taking a multi? My guess is probably
> not, but it never hurts to ask...

[Sbharris-L]

>>It's a good idea to supplement minerals separately. <<

Baloney.

[Joni]

NoOption5L@aol.com wrote:
> Amelia Lemon via MedKB.com wrote: Just eat a varied diet
> that includes fresh fruit and vegetables, whole grains, lean
> meats, some dairy, nuts, seeds and plenty of water and
> you'll get more than plenty of vitamins and minerals.

While that may have been true at one time in the last century,
its not so true today. Overfarming, soil erosion, overuse of
pesticides, and general mismanagement of the soils has made it
nearly impossible to get everything essential from the foods
we eat even if we try to eat a healthy varied diet.
http://www.jeffreywarber.com/hc%20pages/supplementneed.html

joanne

[Ommanipadm]

In article
<wm7me.9451$uR4.7078@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
"George Lagergren" <gel44@earthlink.net> wrote:

> "Amelia Lemon via MedKB.com" <forum@nospam.MedKB.com> wrote:
> > I'm confused. I've heard that you should combine
> > multi-vitamins with
> proper
> > diet and exercise, but I've also heard that multi-vitamins
> > are a waste of money because you're body can't absorb most
> > of the vitamins that are in
> the
> > pill, or that the multi-vitamins are incomplete. I'm
> > trying to get healthy again and I know that I'm not
> > getting enough of some vitamins and minerals through my
> > diet, and I've also started to get muscle cramps during
> > exercise. How do I know which mult-vitamin works, and
> > which doesn't? Is it possible to be getting enough of a
> > certain vitamin through diet and then
> OD
> > by taking a multi? My guess is probably not, but it never
> > hurts to ask...
>
> A very good multi-vitamin is MegaFood (Alpha) .
> Also the Standard Process brand is very good.
>
>
>

I like Solgar VM-75. It's the highest in vitamin B complex of
all the ones I've looked at. It's a good idea to supplement
minerals separately.
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a
son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson

[John Sanke]

"It's a good idea to supplement minerals separately."

My analyses support that. Natural food is shorter in supply of
several minerals than of most vitamins, and manufactured foods
tend to be more fortified with vitamins than with minerals (in
Canada at least).

"Overfarming, soil erosion, overuse of pesticides, and general
mismanagement of the soils has made it nearly impossible to
get everything essential from the foods we eat even if we try
to eat a healthy varied diet."

This is overly pessimistic. Visit the USDA - they analyse
today's food, and show lots of nutrients in natural foods.

[Enrico C]

On 29 May 2005 01:08:23 GMT, John Sankey wrote in
<news:d7b4m7$aab$1@theodyn.ncf.ca> on sci.med.nutrition :

> > "I've also heard that multi-vitamins are a waste of money
> > because you're body can't absorb most of the vitamins that
> > are in the pill, or that the multi-vitamins are
> > incomplete."
>
> Both will be true if you are eating anything like a healthy
> diet. See http://sankey.ws/dietpills.html for what I found
> when I analysed my diet.

You seem to be quite fond of flax seed... Do you think you
need it for the Omegas?

By the way, I see you like an omega6/3 ratio of four, that is
the same ratio in Italian recommended Omega-6 and Omega-3
intakes (6g / 1,5g), while the US IOM DRIs say 17g/1,6g
(males 19-50ys).

> If you analyse your diet, you will almost certainly find
> that you are getting enough of most vitamins and minerals

Well, yes, if it's a healthy diet, it should provide most of
the vitamins and minerals you need, generally speaking... but
how easy is it to have a healthy diet? ;)

> and the excess provided by a general purpose pill is of no
> use to you. Multivitamins sell on price, so contain lots
> of the cheapest nutrients and skimp on or omit the
> expensive ones.

Yeah... If you *really* need to supplement a vitamin or a
mineral, then supplement it separately and use the good stuff.
If you don't need, just don't bother at all. Right?

> For example, visit http://sankey.ws/dietref.html take a look
> at the nutrient list in the left column,

Your page says: "My data on food nutrients comes almost
entirely from the United States Department of Agriculture
Nutrient Data Laboratory (USDA)."

Have you considered the vitamin losses in food storage and
cooking, and in industrial foods?

> then check how many of them are listed in the multivitamin
> you are considering.
>
> "I've also started to get muscle cramps during exercise."
>
> Your body is telling you it's short of something - there are
> very few nutrients whose lack causes muscle cramps and you
> ought to focus on those. Ask a sports doctor or a
> professional nutritionist to advise you.
>
> "Is it possible to be getting enough of a certain vitamin
> through diet and then OD by taking a multi?"
>
> There are very few nutrients that are toxic in excess, and
> an ordinary multivitamin will not have that much.

I also read that some vitamins work better in their natural
form, as found in food rather than in pills.

--
Enrico C
==================================

[Mmu]

"Amelia Lemon via MedKB.com" <forum@nospam.MedKB.com> schrieb
im Newsbeitrag
news:e625b8a39dec4e61a590285d66539d9e@MedKB.com...

> I'm confused. I've heard that you should combine
> multi-vitamins with proper diet and exercise, but I've also
> heard that multi-vitamins are a waste of money because
> you're body can't absorb most of the vitamins that are in
> the pill, or that the multi-vitamins are incomplete.

Both of it is true to some part. The basic thing you should
always start from is a healthy balanced diet and some
exercise. (a diet that contains moderate ammounts of fat and
refined sugar, low ammounts of alcohol and a high ammount of
fruit, vegetables and some quality meat and fish every now
and then.)

Some vitamins are just going nature's way above a certain
ammount (like vitamin C for example).. and so does your money
invested in the multivit so to speak. Other vitamins and
minerals however can be a good addition to your diet- which
always depends on your individual situation/diet and I
recommend going to a doctor or nutritionist to look at this.

>I'm trying to get healthy again and I know that I'm not
>getting enough of some vitamins and minerals through my diet,
>and I've also started to get muscle cramps during exercise.

Probably a lack of water and / or electrolytes. Try drinking
mineral water during or before exercise.

>How do I know which mult-vitamin works, and which doesn't? Is
>it possible to be getting enough of a certain vitamin through
>diet and then OD by taking a multi? My guess is probably not,
>but it never hurts to ask...

OD by taking a single tablet out of a multivit package is not
probable, there is some headroom for almost all vitamins and
minerals [with the possible exception of iron].

> --
> Message posted via http://www.medkb.com

[John Sanke]

"The problem is... people don't usually know the weight of
their food *after* cooking...! :)"

The USDA could make it easier! Pick a nutrient that isn't
affected by cooking - total protein in many cases - then use
that to relate the USDA raw weight to their cooked weight of
the same thing. Put raw weights and resulting cooked nutrients
into your diet program.

"Ok... would you allow some extra losses for ...
freezing, cooking in too much water, overcooking,
reheating, and so on...?"

No, because I don't! (Note that the USDA lists data for frozen
versions of many foods.)

"According to "Linus Pauling" a much higher intake of vit C
is recommendend than in ordinary diets, though... What do
you reckon?"

Pauling's main argument was that pure carnivore mammals like
cats, that produce their own vitamin C, produce an amount
equivalent to several grams/day for an adult human. But, I
don't eat a carnivore's diet!

I suspect that someone or other has recommended overdosing
on just about every nutrient there is. Our bodies are
mighty complex things, and I'm not happy with narrow-cast
views of it.

[John Sanke]

"What software did you use for your optimization
routine, btw?"

I wrote it myself - that way I know what it's doing.
(I've been programming in BASIC for almost 40 years, so I
can usually write things faster than I can find a
commercial product.)

"I also wonder if taking some fish oil pills might be a good
idea, as it's not that easy to reach the recommended intake of
Omega-3 FAs, even being a fish eater as I am!"

It shouldn't be difficult - what RI are you using?

"Mercury pollution in fish and fish oil, and quality fish oil
pills prices ;) , are a concern too."

Data for mercury in fish is available from
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~frf/sea-mehg.html Basically, skip
high predators and fresh-water fish and there's almost none.
Fish oil capsules here cost a lot less than fish for
long-chain FAs - see the table at the bottom of
http://sankey.ws/cholesterol.html

[Enrico C]

On 30 May 2005 17:01:26 GMT, John Sankey wrote in
<news:d7fgt6$nid$1@theodyn.ncf.ca> on sci.med.nutrition :

>> "The problem is... people don't usually know the weight of
>> their food *after* cooking...! :)"
>
> The USDA could make it easier! Pick a nutrient that isn't
> affected by cooking - total protein in many cases - then use
> that to relate the USDA raw weight to their cooked weight of
> the same thing.

That's clever.

> Put raw weights and resulting cooked nutrients into your
> diet program.

What software did you use for your optimization routine, btw?

>> "Ok... would you allow some extra losses for ... freezing,
>> cooking in too much water, overcooking, reheating, and so
>> on...?"
>
> No, because I don't! (Note that the USDA lists data for
> frozen versions of many foods.)
>
>> "According to "Linus Pauling" a much higher intake of vit C
>> is recommendend than in ordinary diets, though... What do
>> you reckon?"
>
> Pauling's main argument was that pure carnivore mammals like
> cats, that produce their own vitamin C, produce an amount
> equivalent to several grams/day for an adult human. But, I
> don't eat a carnivore's diet!
>
> I suspect that someone or other has recommended overdosing
> on just about every nutrient there is. Our bodies are
> mighty complex things, and I'm not happy with narrow-cast
> views of it.

I supplement with Iron and vitamin C as my doctor suggested
that, to help with iron deficiency (both my ferritin and
sideremy levels are low). I was told Vit C pills
(especially the slow release type) help with iron
absorption, and that lemon juice on green leaves helps as
well. Then, I am trying to eat some more red meat and beans
than I used to, for the iron.

I also wonder if taking some fish oil pills might be a good
idea, as it's not that easy to reach the recommended intake of
Omega-3 FAs, even being a fish eater as I am! :) Mercury
pollution in fish and fish oil, and quality fish oil pills
prices ;) , are a concern too.

--
Enrico C
==================================

[Enrico C]

On 30 May 2005 20:19:12 GMT, John Sankey wrote in
<news:d7fsg0$4n$1@theodyn.ncf.ca> on sci.med.nutrition :

>> "I also wonder if taking some fish oil pills might be a
>> good idea, as it's not that easy to reach the recommended
>> intake of Omega-3 FAs, even being a fish eater as I am!"
>
> It shouldn't be difficult - what RI are you using?

Let's say the Italian RI, i.e. 1,5 g. I usually eat fish three
times a week, simmered: cod, dentex (sea bream?), some tuna,
salmon, vendace (dusky perch?), squid, shrimps, and some other
bluefish and shellfish now and then. I can't find nutritional
data of all fishes though [and I am not even sure on some
English names!].

>> "Mercury pollution in fish and fish oil, and quality fish
>> oil pills prices ;) , are a concern too."
>
> Data for mercury in fish is available from
> http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~frf/sea-mehg.html Basically, skip
> high predators and fresh-water fish and there's almost none.

Thanks. I believe it also depends on the sea fish come from...
I heard that heavy metals tend to stay in cold waters rather
than in warm seas.

> Fish oil capsules here cost a lot less than fish for
> long-chain FAs - see the table at the bottom of
> http://sankey.ws/cholesterol.html

Well, yes... but after gobbling fish-oil pills, one has to eat
some food anyway! Thus pills are a cost to sum, not an
alternative... :)

--
Enrico C

[Peterb]

George Lagergren wrote:
> "Amelia Lemon via MedKB.com" <forum@nospam.MedKB.com> wrote:
> > I'm confused. I've heard that you should combine
> > multi-vitamins with
> proper
> > diet and exercise, but I've also heard that multi-vitamins
> > are a waste of money because you're body can't absorb most
> > of the vitamins that are in
> the
> > pill, or that the multi-vitamins are incomplete. I'm
> > trying to get healthy again and I know that I'm not
> > getting enough of some vitamins and minerals through my
> > diet, and I've also started to get muscle cramps during
> > exercise. How do I know which mult-vitamin works, and
> > which doesn't? Is it possible to be getting enough of a
> > certain vitamin through diet and then
> OD
> > by taking a multi? My guess is probably not, but it never
> > hurts to ask...
>
> A very good multi-vitamin is MegaFood (Alpha) .
> Also the Standard Process brand is very good.

I agree with you, George. Whole food vitamins are best.

[Amelia Lem]

How much water do you drink? Dehydration during excersize can
also cause cramping.

I drink quite a bit of water during the week- probably 3-4 32
oz Nalgene bottles a day during the week, although I barely
drink water at all on the weekends.

My diet is good, I think. I try to get as many fruits and
vegetables in during the day as I can, although I think my fat
intake is a little too high.

Do multi's have calories? Just wondering.

--
Message posted via http://www.medkb.com

[John Sanke]

It's not easy to get the info from supplement makers, but from
the three who responded when this question was raised here a
while ago: chewable supplement tablets either use sugar
(calories) or aspartame (no calories) to sweeten them, and
they should say which under non- medicinal ingredients.
Natural Factors as you might expect uses natural sugar - about
2 g per tablet - 8 calories. Non-chewable supplements seem to
not have any significant calories.

[NoOption5L]

joni wrote:
> NoOption5L@aol.com wrote:
> > Amelia Lemon via MedKB.com wrote: Just eat a varied diet
> > that includes fresh fruit and vegetables, whole grains,
> > lean meats, some dairy, nuts, seeds and plenty of water
> > and you'll get more than plenty of vitamins and minerals.

> While that may have been true at one time in the last
> century, its not so true today. Overfarming, soil erosion,
> overuse of pesticides, and general mismanagement of the
> soils has made it nearly impossible to get everything
> essential from the foods we eat even if we try to eat a
> healthy varied diet.
> http://www.jeffreywarber.com/hc%20pages/supplementneed.html

Joanne,

I don't buy this for a second. If the nutrients in foods had
dropped that much in the past hundred years, I'm pretty sure
it would be front page news. Plus, when natural foods are
analyzed and their nutrient stats are printed on the label the
numbers look pretty good to me. And, when I use these modern
nutrient stats to analyze my diet, I find the natural foods I
consume allow me to *FAR* exceed my vitamins and mineral
requirements. Lastly, vitamin pills only supply single
vitamins/ingredients, foods on the other hand supply MANY
little nutrients, many of which we're not even sure how they
interact with the main vitamin and minerals, or what they do
in the human body.

Patrick

[Enrico C]

On 31 May 2005 18:51:03 -0700, NoOption5L@aol.com wrote in
<news:1117590662.956242.6330@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> on
sci.med.nutrition :

> joni wrote:
>> NoOption5L@aol.com wrote:
>>> Amelia Lemon via MedKB.com wrote: Just eat a varied diet
>>> that includes fresh fruit and vegetables, whole grains,
>>> lean meats, some dairy, nuts, seeds and plenty of water
>>> and you'll get more than plenty of vitamins and minerals.
>
>> While that may have been true at one time in the last
>> century, its not so true today. Overfarming, soil erosion,
>> overuse of pesticides, and general mismanagement of the
>> soils has made it nearly impossible to get everything
>> essential from the foods we eat even if we try to eat a
>> healthy varied diet. http://www.jeffreywarber.com/hc%20pag-
>> es/supplementneed.html
>
> Joanne,
>
> I don't buy this for a second.

I am a bit skeptical as well, but you never know...

> If the nutrients in foods had dropped that much in the past
> hundred years, I'm pretty sure it would be front page news.

Hmmm, are the trans-fats in shortenings front page news? And
heavy metal levels in fish? ;)

> Plus, when natural foods are analyzed and their nutrient
> stats are printed on the label the numbers look pretty good
> to me. And, when I use these modern nutrient stats to
> analyze my diet, I find the natural foods I consume allow me
> to *FAR* exceed my vitamins and mineral requirements.

That seems to me too.

> Lastly, vitamin pills only supply single
> vitamins/ingredients, foods on the other hand supply MANY
> little nutrients, many of which we're not even sure how they
> interact with the main vitamin and minerals, or what they do
> in the human body.

Rightly said, imho.

--
Enrico C
==================================

[NoOption5L]

Enrico C wrote:
> On 31 May 2005 18:51:03 -0700, NoOption5L@aol.com wrote in
> <news:1117590662.956242.6330@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
> on sci.med.nutrition :

> > joni wrote:
> >> NoOption5L@aol.com wrote:
> >>> Amelia Lemon via MedKB.com wrote: Just eat a varied diet
> >>> that includes fresh fruit and vegetables, whole grains,
> >>> lean meats, some dairy, nuts, seeds and plenty of water
> >>> and you'll get more than plenty of vitamins and
> >>> minerals.

> >> While that may have been true at one time in the last
> >> century, its not so true today. Overfarming, soil
> >> erosion, overuse of pesticides, and general mismanagement
> >> of the soils has made it nearly impossible to get
> >> everything essential from the foods we eat even if we try
> >> to eat a healthy varied diet. http://www.jeffreywarber.c-
> >> om/hc%20pages/supplementneed.html

> > Joanne,

> > I don't buy this for a second.

> I am a bit skeptical as well, but you never know...

> > If the nutrients in foods had dropped that much in the
> > past hundred years, I'm pretty sure it would be front
> > page news.

> Hmmm, are the trans-fats in shortenings front page news? And
> heavy metal levels in fish? ;)

Trans fats are. As of Jan '06, they will have to be listed on
the nutrition label.

And so are metals in fish... okay maybe not front page news on
this one, but it is getting some attention.

> > Plus, when natural foods are analyzed and their nutrient
> > stats are printed on the label the numbers look pretty
> > good to me. And, when I use these modern nutrient stats to
> > analyze my diet, I find the natural foods I consume allow
> > me to *FAR* exceed my vitamins and mineral requirements.

> That seems to me too.

> > Lastly, vitamin pills only supply single
> > vitamins/ingredients, foods on the other hand supply MANY
> > little nutrients, many of which we're not even sure how
> > they interact with the main vitamin and minerals, or what
> > they do in the human body.

> Rightly said, imho.

Patrick

[Kristofer]

Amelia Lemon via MedKB.com <forum@nospam.medkb.com> wrote:

> pill, or that the multi-vitamins are incomplete. I'm trying
> to get healthy again and I know that I'm not getting enough
> of some vitamins and minerals

Here's a general discussion:

http://www.vitaletherapeutics.org/immunecf.htm

--
.
. _o Kristofer Dale,
. _ \<,_ ragged individualist,
. ( )/ ( ) statistic at large... .

p.s. Learn and live, http://www.vitaletherapeutics.org