Dangers of Soy

[dazza]

http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/avoid_soy.htm


I found this interesting website about the dangers of eating soy.

All the more reason to eat proper protein and lo-carb.

Dazza :wave:

[BillT]

Originally posted by dazza
I found this interesting website about the dangers of eating soy.Mercola "copies" most of his stuff from others… You’ll find much better info on the Weston A. Price site at: Soy Alert (http://www.westonaprice.org/soy_alert.htm).

[dazza]

Thanks for telling me the address for the info about soy and many other issues.Very useful.

Thank you very much

Dazza :) :wave:

[Ruth]

Bill,

Thanks for letting us know about this site. I've had a quick look around there & will return again when I have more time. Fresh, unprocessed food wins hands down, doesn't it?

Ruth

[BillT]

Originally posted by dazza
Thanks for telling me the address for the info about soy and many other issues. Very useful.Closer to you there's Uncovering the truth about soy (http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/)…

[gecolon]

Good articles, but now I'm depressed. My son had to use soy formula when he was an infant, and he is dealing with many of the stated side effects. I never knew it could have came from the milk. :mad:

[dazza]

My daughter had soy milk as a baby also and she has problems also.
I wish I knew then what I know now.

Dazza :mad:

[AmandaSo]

I don't know. These complaints sound suspiciously like all the articles that came out against hi-protein, lo carb diets about ten or fifteen years ago. Doctors - real doctors, with real degrees - came out and said, "You'll destroy your kidneys, you'll die of a heart attack, you'll increase your chances for stoke and diabetes." Lo, these many years later, the opposite has proven true.

Regarding soy isoflavons, the articles states as follows:

animal studies indicate that they are powerful endocrine disrupters that alter growth patterns and cause sterility

Later, the article implies the following:

As for girls, an alarming number are entering puberty much earlier than normal, according to a recent study reported in the journal Pediatrics.

The implication is that this is caused by the consuming of soy products. This is erroneous and quite misleading. The early onset of puberty has already been linked statistically both by medical and sociological experts with the increased use of human growth hormone in dairy and beef products.

General statements like that are not helpful. What kind of animal studies, done by whom and for how long? What kind of animals? Monkeys? Ape? Porcupines? Soy formula, tofu and soy-based meat substitutes have been on the market for almost 20 - 30 years now, plenty of time to establish a pattern of health history in human beings, particularly in developing infants and children. Where are those studies? And if the statement about puberty in girls is misleading, what else in these articles is subject to question.

I don't mean to be a nay-sayer, but I do believe in being very cautious when it comes to accepting the word of people (or one person, in the form of one Sally Fallon, who is responsible for both articles) who seem to be very dedicated to getting other people to see it all their way. Let's stop and think for a second. I'm not saying soy isn't harmful. But who is Sally Fallon. What's her beef with soy (no pun intended)? Why should I take her word for the so-called "facts" she states in these two articles.

In 1992, there was a particularly vicious Internet campaign started against the makers of aspartame by one woman who had had a not so pleasant reaction to it. By the time she was done, the rumor had spread that aspartame was invented by the military as a chemical weapon. Aspartame may not be the healthiest thing around, but it's made from bananas and milk, and, unless you're allergic to it, it ain't gonna kill ya. If it did, people be droppin' dead in Starbucks left, right and center.

So before I go blaming my daughter's poor algebra grades on the soy-based formula I fed her during her first six months, I'm going to need to see some really detailed medical information from someone other than Sally Fallon.... preferably someone with some serious initials after their names, associated with Johns Hopkins or Mayo or the Centers for Disease Control, or some equally substantial institution.

Just call me the Resident Cynic. :D

[BillT]

Originally posted by AmandaSo
But who is Sally Fallon. What's her beef with soy (no pun intended)? Why should I take her word for the so-called "facts" she states in these two articles.I fully agree with this! Who needs articles like Tofu causes Brain Shrinkage (http://www.psa-rising.com/eatingwell/tofu_brainap00.htm) from the Journal of the American College of Nutrition (http://www.psa-rising.com/eatingwell/tofu_brainap00.htm) when you can get all the medical literature you need from your local supermarket? Personally, I don’t read anything but the National Inquirer…

[AmandaSo]

Ahhh, yes... hurtful, biting sarcasm.... That's almost certain to shed light on any controversial issue.

Thanks, Bill... I feel so put in my place now.

[BillT]

Originally posted by AmandaSo
Ahhh, yes... hurtful, biting sarcasm....And all of it brought to you courtesy of an (unshrunk) brain from California (not Hawaii)! :p

Just call me the Resident Sarcastic. :D

[AmandaSo]

First sarcasm, now outright insult. Your batting a thousand, Bill.

And you've managed to stop any intelligent, give-and-take discussion of the issue dead in its tracks. How does that further the cause of intelligent, enlightened, open-minded dialogue? My withered, shrunken brain isn't capable of answering that. Perhaps you can help.

[BillT]

Originally posted by AmandaSo
you've managed to stop any intelligent, give-and-take discussion of the issue dead in its tracksIf I’m not mistaken, you were the first one to concentrate entirely on personal editorializing rather than comment the article I posted on a well recognized medical issue… :eek:

[AmandaSo]

No, go back and look at my original post. It's question after question. You chose to ignore those questions by flaming me. I found gross exagerations and misleading information in that article. I felt bound to point them out.

Everyone does not see things just one way. The way to dissect a subject and analyze it is not to simply tell someone they're stupid for disagreeing with you.

[BillT]

Originally posted by AmandaSo
No, go back and look at my original post. It's question after question. You chose to ignore those questionsIf I'm not mistaken, those questions were: "What kind of animal studies, done by whom and for how long? What kind of animals? Monkeys? Ape? Porcupines? Where are those studies?" and the follow-up article I posted answers that: "Who: Men who ate the most tofu during their mid-40s to mid-60s. Year: 1965. Where: Hawaii Author: Lon White, MD. Place: Hawaii Center for Health Research. Publisher: Journal of the American College of Nutrition," etc.

[nsmith4366]

I know this exchange is any of my business, but with the war on - and all the worry and stress about - can we try to just treat eachother with a bit more kindness, gentleness? I mean lets count our blessings and remember the big picture. That's all. You can tell me to butt OUT now, I expect that. :(

[AmandaSo]

1965... 37 years ago. 37 years ago, doctors were telling people that a low-carbohydrate diet would lead to kidney failure and stroke.

Ten years ago, coffee gave you bladder cancer. Then it didn't. Then it did. Then it didn't. Then it was kidney cancer. Then it wasn't. 35 years ago, cyclamates were banned because they gave you cancer. Now, they don't. "Oops... sorry... we were wrong... do over.... "

My point is to make a statement that soy is poisonous to humans belies the fact that many people consume a fair amount of the product and don't end up with Alzheimer's or kidney damage or fertility problems. To imply that girls are maturing sexually earlier and earlier because of increased use of soy, completely discounting the more likely explanation that our consumption of human growth hormone (the hormone that triggers the onset of sexual maturity in human beings) has increased by almost 75% in the last 20 years is misleading and, in my opinion, journalistically irresponsible.

Is soy poisonous? Maybe. Does it cause men's brains to shrink? Maybe. Is that effect as deleterious to women as to men? Could be. Is it perhaps that soy should be consumed by women (particularly post-menopausal women who can't or choose not to partake in hormone replacement therapy), but should be avoided by men? Perhaps. Time will tell. By all means, stay away from soy if it makes you happy. But this position is not one that's held by everyone in the medical or scientific community. It's being hotly debated by medical minds that are far better qualified than either of ours, and the debate will probably continue for sometime. Meanwhile, everyone's entitled to his or her opinion.

One thing is not subject to debate, however. Resorting to nasty sarcasm and making disparaging remarks about another's intelligence is not conducive to further debate and disclosure.

P.S. It should be pretty clear by now that there's nothing wrong with my brain. I have to go make some soy flour pancakes now.

[r.mines]

NSmith is right. Let's all keep an open mind and accept that there are lots of points of view on various topics, none of which are (yet) written in stone. We're all entitled to our own opinion. Let's try to keep it cool and not get personal, OK? ;)

Rachel

[BillT]

Originally posted by AmandaSo
1965... 37 years ago.Maybe if you just read The Article I Quoted (http://www.psa-rising.com/eatingwell/tofu_brainap00.htm), you would see that it clearly states “the Honolulu Heart Program . . . began tracking the health of 8,000 Japanese-American men in 1965” and the results were “published in the April issue of the Journal of the American College of Nutrition.” Clearly, this was an ongoing study that took place between 1965 and 2001…

[maggi]

I've loved reading your bitchin', but where does this leave your 40-something who eats soya to help with the menopause we will eventually get to, many years down the line....I forget what my point is.....!

[vitaka]

Originally posted by maggi
where does this leave your 40-something who eats soya to help with the menopause we will eventually get to, many years down the line....Where it leaves her, I'm afraid, is with an increased risk of breast cancer until… that fad passes, like others.

[MaryB]

:eek: :bash: Wow. Maybe you two (Bill and Amanda) should get married or something! What's with the hostility?! I see both of your points! And thank you for the interesting opposing views.

Its a well known fact that the artificial sugar in my chewing gum causes cancer in lab rats when given in doses 10 X the amount that would be a lethal amount for an elephant, given three times a day.
:D
I chew it any way - in moderation, of course! :yum:

[BillT]

Originally posted by MaryB
I see both of your points! And thank you for the interesting opposing views. . . . Its a well known fact that the artificial sugar in my chewing gum causes cancer in lab rats when given in doses 10 X the amount that would be a lethal amount for an elephant, given three times a day.Thanks for your input (although I have no clue whatsoever how this is supposed to relate to scientific studies on soy :confused: but again I just a cook with not much education… :()

[MaryB]

Don't fret - it was a joke meant to lighten the mood. :D
mb

[doreen T]

Very interesting, the article about tofu and brain shrinkage.

I noticed that the study was referenced twice here, and the journal in which it was published was also mentioned, however the links provided in all three cases took me to the same 2nd-party article ABOUT the referred-to study, but not to the original study article itself, nor to the mentioned journal.

So, I hunted down the Journal of the American College of Nutrition, and as well did some web-searching on this particular article. What piqued my interest was that I had heard of such a study linking tofu consumption to brain shrinkage in men a long time ago, at least five years.

Visiting the JACN website (http://www.am-coll-nutr.org/index.htm), I found that the mentioned study was published in April 2000, not this year. The actual study was completed in the early 90's, and had NEVER been published in any medical, science, nutritional or research journal ... it does not meet the standard research criteria since there was no control group or double-blind. You can read the abstract of the original article here (http://www.am-coll-nutr.org/jacn/vol_19/no_2/pg242.htm).

It's worth noting that the study was not conclusive, nor did it prove anything. The study was originally established in 1965 to follow the men for heart disease and cancer risk. The men were interviewed in 1974 - 77 about dietary choices. The men were then examined in 1991 - 93, and results tabulated for the heart disease and cancer data. It was noticed as an aside that men who had consumed tofu more than twice a week in the 1970's showed signs of increased aging in the 1990's, such as brain atrophy and decreased cognitive ability, as compared to the group that ate tofu less often.

It's also worth noting that brain atrophy (shrinkage) and decreased cognitive ability are sequelae of the normal aging process. The men in the study ranged in age from 71 to 93 yrs at the conclusion. Some of the wives of the men were also found to have some brain atrophy, but much less than the men.

I do feel that these observations warrant further investigation, since they suggest a link between the tofu and increased rate of the normal aging process in the brain. But they do not prove conclusively, nor have other factors been excluded.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Journal of the American College of Nutrition is very interesting. Some good and useful articles there, but this organization is geared to proviidng educational information about nutrition to health professions, and non-professional nutrition consultants. I searched the site, and discovered on the links page that their corporate sponsors include The National Dairy Council .. which would explain the plethora of articles about calcium, and the importance of consuming dairy products to get it .... and the Alliance for Better Foods, which is an organization devoted to Biotechnology and genetic modification of food.

The journal itself has only been published since February 2000, although the organization has been in existence since 1959. Here are some other interesting studies that have been published in this Journal Feb 2000 (http://www.am-coll-nutr.org/jacn/vol_19/no_1/pg61.htm) article "proving" that a diet rich in grains, nuts, vegetables and fruits had more favourable effect on blood lipids than a diet high in saturated fat.

June 2000 (http://www.am-coll-nutr.org/jacn/vol_19/no_3,Suppl/toc.htm) supplement is devoted entirely to the glory of grains, and their role in disease prevention.

Oct 2000 (http://www.am-coll-nutr.org/jacn/vol_19/no_5/pg578.htm) article comparing various diets, such as Atkins and Protein Power, Pritikin and Ornish. Even though the study showed that subjects following lowcarb lost more weight, and had lowered cholesterol, the conclusion was thus:
While high fat diets may promote short-term weight loss, the potential hazards for worsening risk for progression of atherosclerosis override the short-term benefits. Individuals derive the greatest health benefits from diets low in saturated fat and high in carbohydrate and fiber; these increase sensitivity to insulin and lower risk for CHD. I agree it's important to be aware of these controversies, and to make informed choices.

Doreen

[BillT]

Originally posted by doreen T
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
While high fat diets may promote short-term weight loss, the potential hazards for worsening risk for progression of atherosclerosis override the short-term benefits. Individuals derive the greatest health benefits from diets low in saturated fat and high in carbohydrate and fiber; these increase sensitivity to insulin and lower risk for CHD.
Or translated in plain English: "Although our studies show low-carb is beneficial, we don't like those results so we choose to ignore them. Instead, we unilaterally proclaim those benefits to be "short-term" and command you to do the opposite our study found you should do because… we say so (and we're sponsored by the The National Dairy Council and the Alliance for Better Foods :p)"

Good remarks though… :thup:

[tamarian]

Originally posted by doreen T
their corporate sponsors include The National Dairy Council .. which would explain the plethora of articles about calcium, and the importance of consuming dairy products to get it .... and the Alliance for Better Foods, which is an organization devoted to Biotechnology and genetic modification of food.


Are you implying what I think you are implying? You mean some food councils sponsor research (out of the goodness of their hearts?) to better our health and well-being, and stop eating what they don't want us to eat!?

Would our goverments let them do that?!?!?

I live a sheltered life! :p

Back to serious mode, this thread should be moved to Research/Media, me think.

Wa'il

[Cindygirl1]

Well everyone, my feelings on tofu or aspartame or any other man made substance for me is a no no. I honestly feel that natural is the best and moderation is the key word. Our family won't even eat processed lunch meat, wieners or any fast food meats from Wendy's and such other places. I want to know what goes in my food. I buy my meat from a butcher who prepares it himself not like supermarkets who get the their meat prepackaged by who knows. My turkey and chickens come from a free range farm and boy does it ever taste better. I rather scrimp on material things and consume as much natural as I can. This way I choose what I want and it is always fresh. My whipping cream comes from my favourite bakery. This whip cream "higher in fat"whips in seconds and stays firm, not like the supermarket ones that you whip for a length of time and than have to use a stabilizer to keep it firm. Stabilizer another chemical ugh. My vegetables come from a vegetable market who supports and buys from local farmers and also from my own garden. This way I can freeze or can them for the winter months.
I do realize that we haven't got control of all our foods but I feel that if we go back to supporting our farmers and butchers by buying from them we may be able to get back to our roots and get away from fast processed foods. "just my two cents"

Cindy