Vegan diets harm children

[EvelynS]

Children 'harmed' by vegan diets
By Michelle Roberts
BBC News health reporter, in Washington DC


Putting children on strict vegan diets is "unethical" and could harm their development, a US scientist has argued.

Lindsay Allen, of the US Agricultural Research Service, attacked parents who insisted their children lived by the maxim "meat is murder".

Animal source foods have some nutrients not found anywhere else, she told a Washington science conference.

The Vegan Society dismissed the claims, saying its research showed vegans were often healthier than meat eaters.

'Development affected'

Professor Allen said: "There have been sufficient studies clearly showing that when women avoid all animal foods, their babies are born small, they grow very slowly and they are developmentally retarded, possibly permanently."



There's absolutely no question that it's unethical for parents to bring up their children as strict vegans
Professor Lindsay Allen, US Agricultural Research Service

"If you're talking about feeding young children, pregnant women and lactating women, I would go as far as to say it is unethical to withhold these foods [animal source foods] during that period of life."

She was especially critical of parents who imposed a vegan lifestyle on their children, denying them milk, cheese, butter and meat.

"There's absolutely no question that it's unethical for parents to bring up their children as strict vegans," she told the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS).


Missing nutrients

She said the damage to a child began while it was growing in the womb and continued once it had been born.

Research she carried out among African schoolchildren suggests as little as two spoonfuls of meat each day is enough to provide nutrients such as vitamin B12, zinc and iron.

The 544 children studied had been raised on diets chiefly consisting of starchy, low-nutrition corn and bean staples lacking these micronutrients.

Over two years, some of the children were given 2oz supplements of meat each day, equivalent to about two spoonfuls of mince.

Two other groups received either a cup of milk a day or an oil supplement containing the same amount of energy. The diet of a fourth group was left unaltered.

The changes seen in the children given the meat, and to a lesser extent the milk or oil, were dramatic.

These children grew more and performed better on problem-solving and intelligence tests than any of the other children at the end of the two years.

They also became more active, talkative and playful at school.

Adding either meat or milk to the diets also almost completely eliminated the very high rates of vitamin B12 deficiency previously seen in the children.

No quick fixes

Professor Allen stressed that although the study was conducted in a poor African community, its message was highly relevant to people in developed countries.

She accepted that adults could avoid animal foods if they took the right supplements, but she said adding animal source food into the diet was a better way to tackle malnutrition worldwide than quick fixes with supplements in the form of pills.

"Where feasible, it would be much better to do it through the diet than by giving pills," she said.

"With pills it's very hard to be certain that the quantity of nutrition is right for everybody and it's hard to sustain."

In Africa, good results had been obtained from giving people a dried meat on a stick snack which proved both nutritious and appealing.

Professor Montague Demment, from the University of California at Davis, said more emphasis should be placed on animal source food to combat global malnutrition.

Vegan defence

However, the claims have been dismissed by the Vegan Society in the UK.

In a statement, it said increasing numbers of people were opting for a plant-based diet.

Kostana Azmi, the chief executive officer, said: "The vegan diet can provide you with more energy, nutrition, and is bursting with goodness."

She said plant sources were sometimes a safer, and cheaper source of nutrients.

For instance, animal sources of omega-3 oils, needed for the development of the brain and nervous system, were often contaminated with pollutants, such as mercury in fish.

In addition, the vegan diet was often a healthier alternative. She said dairy and meat products were rich in saturated fat, while plant based diets were low in it.

The society does recommend that vegans supplement their diet with vitamin B-12 pills.

The US Agricultural Research Service is part of the US Department of Agriculture.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/health/4282257.stm

Published: 2005/02/21 01:01:52 GMT

© BBC MMV

[TBoneMitch]

QUOTE: «She said dairy and meat products were rich in saturated fat, while plant based diets were low in it. »

Mother's milk is high in saturated fat, does that mean it's harmful for infants?

[Angeline]

When faced with evidence looks like the Vegan Society is resorting to sticking their fingers in their ears while saying "I can't hear you, I can't hear you, icantheayou..

Maybe that's another sign of Vit B deficiency? :)

I mean open your eyes. Can you show me one society that has thrived under veganism? If it was so superior you'd have tons of examples. The fact is, if you look at history, typically a vegan society is a starving society that can't afford animal proteins.

[tie_guy]

It seems we evolved to eat meat (as well as other things.) People who become total vegans remind me of the sharks in the movie "Finding Nemo." They decided that fish were friends not food. But they were sharks, eating fish was their job. Sharks are an important part of the Ocean's ecosystem -- just like humans once were an important part of our ecosystem. Of course raising cows in high capacity feed lots may not be good for the ecosystem but this type of thing may be the only alternative to us all having health problems. It's enough to give one an ethics head ache. Some people insist on only eating free range animals -- maybe they have a point?

[Nancy LC]

It's kind of sad. They've adopted a morality which isn't supported by reality. It's like if lions suddenly decided to become grass eaters. They'd be noble but pathetic creatures as they died off from terrible diseases.

Or I suppose it reminds me of religious persecution. If the choice were to worship the Roman pantheon of Gods or being eaten by lions I'd say, "Praise Ishva" (or whoever). But then, I'm a pragmatist.

[cc48510]

An Unsupplemented (i.e. No Vitamin Pills, Fortified Cereals, etc...) Vegan Diet would normally be 100% FATAL. Vitamin B12 Deficiency causes Brain Damage and eventually Death. Vitamin B12 is ONLY obtainable [Naturally] from Animal Byproducts. Fortunately, Humans can store a certain amount...which is typically sufficient to live for years without eating Animal Byproducts before developing a deficiency. I would presume this was a mechanism intended for periods of famine. Plain and simple, any diet that is 100% Fatal without Pills or Specially Fortified Foods, is probably not a diet you would want to be on. A Vegan Diet definitely goes against the very design of Human Beings. We are omnivores, designed to eat both Animals and Plants. We are not Herbivores.

[Quinadal]

It's kind of sad. They've adopted a morality which isn't supported by reality. It's like if lions suddenly decided to become grass eaters. They'd be noble but pathetic creatures as they died off from terrible diseases.
Reminds me of the Futurama episode when the vegan/hippies insist we shouldn't kill animals for food.
"But animals kill for food! It's natural!"
"Not true!" pointing to a emaciated lion. "We taught this lion to eat nothing but tofu!" "
lion *cough...cough...moan"

[Paleoanth]

An Unsupplemented (i.e. No Vitamin Pills, Fortified Cereals, etc...) Vegan Diet would normally be 100% FATAL. Vitamin B12 Deficiency causes Brain Damage and eventually Death. Vitamin B12 is ONLY obtainable [Naturally] from Animal Byproducts. Fortunately, Humans can store a certain amount...which is typically sufficient to live for years without eating Animal Byproducts before developing a deficiency. I would presume this was a mechanism intended for periods of famine. Plain and simple, any diet that is 100% Fatal without Pills or Specially Fortified Foods, is probably not a diet you would want to be on. A Vegan Diet definitely goes against the very design of Human Beings. We are omnivores, designed to eat both Animals and Plants. We are not Herbivores.
And this is why I will never give up cheese. Plus it is good.

[Quinadal]

Vitamin B12 is ONLY obtainable [Naturally] from Animal Byproducts.
Actually, it's the ONLY way at all. The B12 that shows up in fermented foods that vegans insist they get it from ISN'T B12. It's an analog and doesn't work exactly like B12, just slighty like it. Not enough to replace animal sources.

[AJCole]

The most expansive societies, without modern technology, had good sources of meat and dairy. The Vikings, who lived largly in coastal areas and had no fuedal policies forbidding their people from hunting (as did fuedal europe, only the nobility could hunt, hence all the famine issues), and especailly the Mongols, nomads who drank the milk of the horses they rode and made cheese with it. Yum?

[Nancy LC]

Actually, it's the ONLY way at all. The B12 that shows up in fermented foods that vegans insist they get it from ISN'T B12. It's an analog and doesn't work exactly like B12, just slighty like it. Not enough to replace animal sources.

I'd heard B12 is actually the only natural vitamin. One that comes from some little bacteria or something.

[Quinadal]

I'd heard B12 is actually the only natural vitamin. One that comes from some little bacteria or something.
Vegans claim it can be made by the bacteria that ferments non animal sources, but this isn't B12. The only sources of real B12 are animal sources.

[Nancy LC]

Hmmm... just found this article. Sounds like it is B12 but it isn't absorbed well.

http://pmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/79/930/218

[dina1957]

The most expansive societies, without modern technology, had good sources of meat and dairy. The Vikings, who lived largly in coastal areas and had no fuedal policies forbidding their people from hunting (as did fuedal europe, only the nobility could hunt, hence all the famine issues), and especailly the Mongols, nomads who drank the milk of the horses they rode and made cheese with it. Yum?The mare milk beverage is called Kumis. I've tried it once, it is very strong, robust, and has a significant amount of ethyl alcohol in it. I did not mind the alcohol part :lol: but could not get over the smell. It smelled like ...a horse. One time was enough to turn me off. O guess one can get used to it if raised drinking it every day. Cod liver oil taste even worse:lol:
Kumis I've tried was commercially processed and bottled, may be home made is better. It's very popular in Kazakstan and Middle Asian republics. Also used to treat tuberculosis patients due to antibacterial and appetite promoting purposes. Not sure if I would say it's yummy.

Kumis is a traditional milk beverage of cattle-breeder- nomads, received by lactic acid fermentation. True kumis differs by the strength and is made from mare milk. In old times kumis was made and kept in a horsehide vessel. For that, the skin from the old horse was taken and sewed up, the cellular tissue inside. The hair was singed and the vessel was smoked and greased with oat. The capacity of such vessels was different from 16 liters to 150 liters. Kumis, made in a horsehide vessel, was remarkable by its high gustatory senses and foamy consistence because of the gas abundance.

The quality of kumis depends on the ferment. Until the end of XIX century, kumis was made from the ferment, prepared at the end of kumis season. During the summer cheese sediment was accumulated on the bottom of the milk-skin, it was then dried and kept until the spring. This ferment was combined with mare milk and buttermilk and a dried horse tendon was put in the vessel.

Since XX century, wheat and barley grains, old kumis were used for the ferment and instead of horsehide vessels people made hollowed out linden vessels. Frequent shaking is the indispensable condition of kumis preparing. Kumis treating was a must before and after the meal. Kumis tradition is kept our days as well and made in different ways. (http://www.russianfoods.com/recipes/item001B8/default.asp)

Kumis drinking is very healthy and used for medical purposes. The healing power of kumis is proved by clinical testing. Kumis is rich in ferments, trace elements, antibiotics, vitamins A, B1, B2, B13, D, E, C, ethyl alcohol, lactic acid and carbonic acid. Kumis drinking has a healing influence on the work of gastrointestinal tract, metabolism, cardiovascular and nervous systems, sanguification organs and kidney work and develops immunity. Kumis is good in the case of emaciation and anemia. http://www.russianfoods.com/cuisine/article00014/default.asp

[mammac-5]

It seems that this would be pretty easy to research and track since there are such large populations of folk who live a vegan lifestyle; I guess I'd like to see more research on these populations.

The Seventh Day Adventist Church, for example, has millions of members all over the globe. They very much urge their members to eat vegan-style ONLY. Of course, as with any religion, not all members are going to follow that 100%. But it seems that studies could be done on those who do (particularly pregnant women and young children) that would clearly show any effects of vegetarianism -- positive OR negative.

Hmmm

[Angeline]

The problem with comparaison I find is that vegans, by the nature of their diet, will often avoid processed food. So any health benefits could be due to the simple fact they are avoiding processed food and its host of additives, chemicals and franken ingredients.

What we would need is a comparaison between a low-carb, an all natural food, a lacto-octo vegetarian and a vegan diet.

[sirdj]

While I dont have the scientific data to prove this theory wrong, I do have a lot live examples from where I live which proves this to be quite incorrect.

With a population of 1 Billion in India - approx 35% are vegetarians or as is now being termed vegans. Some communities are so strict that they do not consume stuff like garlic, onions and potato as well(any thing grown underground). And they seem to be doing quite OK. I have known kids in my boarding school who were vegetarians and were excellent in studies & sports.

I guess the difference is the type of vegetables consumed. Pulses/Legumes/Grams/Soyabean/Cheese etc provide them with adequate protiens and the rest of the veggies the carbs/fibres etc.

[Lisa N]

sirdj, are you aware that India is one of the countries leading the world right now in new cases of diabetes being diagnosed (I believe China is first, India second)?

[Nancy LC]

approx 35% are vegetarians or as is now being termed vegans

There used to be a large difference between vegans and vegetarians. Has that changed? Vegetarians generally don't eat meat but do eat milk, cheese, eggs and other animals products while vegans eschew all animal products.

So are Indians vegan or are they vegetarian?

[dina1957]

sirdj, are you aware that India is one of the countries leading the world right now in new cases of diabetes being diagnosed (I believe China is first, India second)?Lisa:
60% folks in our company are from India. Few are ovo-lacto vegeterians (hindy) while others are meat eaters. Funny, but vegeterians are all very slim, while meat eater are overweight and one is even obese. A coincidence? May be. Hindys are ovo-lacto vegeterians, so they eat enough protein from eggs, dairy, legumes, rice, etc, a think it's a very helathy and balanced diet. Meals are largely based on vegetables and legumes, lots of plain yougurt and small amount of rice. They do not eat any hydrogenated fats and junk food simply because can't be sure that it was not processed or prepared with any animal derived products. Meat eaters do not care, they eat everything, including junk and fried food. As said as it is, India and China are flooded with junk and processed foods now, and those who switched from traditional whole food diets to Western junk, suffer from ovesity and diabetes. Folks in large cities switched from cooking with traditional coconut oil/ghee to hydrogenerated oils and margarine, and this alone can lead to diabetes and obesity. Being vegeterian even vegan does not make one obese or diebetic. JMO.

[MoonDansyr]

Indians I've known have been vegetarians - - as they eat some dairy (mainly milk and yogurt). I, too, have known many vegetarians from birth who have been very brilliant people.

My husband and I (and our kids) tried to be vegans for awhile. We took supplements (made of vegetables!), and we also consumed nutritional yeast which is supposed to provide B12. We kept a check on our iron, zinc, and B12 and never became deficient - - until I went into a hypothyroid downward spiral and became severely iron anemic (which coincides with hypothyroidism). I think the hypothyroidism happened because I consumed soooo much more soy as a vegan than I would have otherwise consumed: soy "milk," soy "cheese," tofu, edamame, faux meats, etc. I've been fighting to recover my health ever since (thyroid affects the entire body!). Oh, and as vegans, we GAINED weight rather than lost. I did a LOT of research on being a "healthy vegan" and worked hard to get enough protein and other nutrients. So far, we've not seen any "negative" effects with the kids or my husband from our "stint" (~2 years) - - further, my kids' capacity for learning has not seemed to waiver. They certainly didn't seem to be "less" smart during the time we were vegans and they're currently in the tops of their classes (my first grader is reading chapter books). I'm NOT defending the lifestyle - - I'm just stating my experience. I definitely think there are a lot of vegans out there that aren't eating as well as they could be and are probably very deficient in a lot of areas.

It's a very controversial topic, but I will say that I have *no* desire to return to veganism or even vegetarianism. I loved the "idea" of not eating animals, but I believe that a W.A.S.P., I, and my bloodline, probably evolved to need animal products in our diet to be "healthy." Maybe Indians don't need as much of their diet from animal products to be healthy because they've eaten that way for so incredibly many generations. We are all different - - even in our low carb community, we have so many different versions because what works wonders for one person doesn't work as well for the next. I know a lot of LC'ers are out there supplementing their lack of carbs with soy-based products and benefitting greatly. I, personally, cannot touch soy or I go into thyroid dive and end up with a plethora of ailments going on at once (including weight gain or at least a major stall).

Okay, I'll shut up. I just wish the controversy would end - - one person's lifestyle can be another person's hell. Accept it and move on.

[dina1957]

While I dont have the scientific data to prove this theory wrong, I do have a lot live examples from where I live which proves this to be quite incorrect.

With a population of 1 Billion in India - approx 35% are vegetarians or as is now being termed vegans. Some communities are so strict that they do not consume stuff like garlic, onions and potato as well(any thing grown underground). And they seem to be doing quite OK. I have known kids in my boarding school who were vegetarians and were excellent in studies & sports.

I guess the difference is the type of vegetables consumed. Pulses/Legumes/Grams/Soyabean/Cheese etc provide them with adequate protiens and the rest of the veggies the carbs/fibres etc.I agree, Indians eat lots of good legumes like lentils, chana dal, chick pea, which are very low GI with lots of fiber. Yougurt is another staple and combined together makes a delicious and well balanced meal. Caluflower, sweet potatoes, brown rice are all very good. Add also best health promoting spices like turmeric, cinnamon, ginger, garlic, fenugreek, etc. and you have perfect anti-diabetic supplements.

[MoonDansyr]

60% folks in our company are from India. Few are ovo-lacto vegeterians (hindy) while others are meat eaters. Funny, but vegeterians are all very slim, while meat eater are overweight and one is even obese. A coincidence? May be. Hindys are ovo-lacto vegeterians, so they eat enough protein from eggs, dairy, legumes, rice, etc, a think it's a very helathy and balanced diet. Meals are largely based on vegetables and legumes, lots of plain yougurt and small amount of rice. They do not eat any hydrogenated fats and junk food simply because can't be sure that it was not processed or prepared with any animal derived products. Meat eaters do not care, they eat everything, including junk and fried food. As said as it is, India and China are flooded with junk and processed foods now, and those who switched from traditional whole food diets to Western junk, suffer from ovesity and diabetes. Folks in large cities switched from cooking with traditional coconut oil/ghee to hydrogenerated oils and margarine, and this alone can lead to diabetes and obesity. Being vegeterian even vegan does not make one obese or diebetic. JMO.

VERY well said!

[Lisa N]

Lisa:
60% folks in our company are from India. Few are ovo-lacto vegeterians (hindy) while others are meat eaters. Funny, but vegeterians are all very slim, while meat eater are overweight and one is even obese. A coincidence? May be. Hindys are ovo-lacto vegeterians, so they eat enough protein from eggs, dairy, legumes, rice, etc, a think it's a very helathy and balanced diet. Meals are largely based on vegetables and legumes, lots of plain yougurt and small amount of rice. They do not eat any hydrogenated fats and junk food simply because can't be sure that it was not processed or prepared with any animal derived products. Meat eaters do not care, they eat everything, including junk and fried food. As said as it is, India and China are flooded with junk and processed foods now, and those who switched from traditional whole food diets to Western junk, suffer from ovesity and diabetes. Folks in large cities switched from cooking with traditional coconut oil/ghee to hydrogenerated oils and margarine, and this alone can lead to diabetes and obesity. Being vegeterian even vegan does not make one obese or diebetic. JMO.

Dina, here are the statistics for prevalence of diabetes in India:
http://www.medindia.net/health_statistics/diseases/diabetes.asp

They don't bear out your assertion that it's the urban dwellers who have left their traditional foods that are succumbing to diabetes. You'll note from the statistics that the higher prevalences are in rural areas.

[dina1957]

Dina, here are the statistics for prevalence of diabetes in India:
http://www.medindia.net/health_statistics/diseases/diabetes.asp

They don't bear out your assertion that it's the urban dwellers who have left their traditional foods that are succumbing to diabetes. You'll note from the statistics that the higher prevalences are in rural areas.You know there are lies, more lies, and then the statistics;) But for what I've read so far, it's the urban areas where diabetes has reached epidemical proportions, and it makes more sense More "statistics" follows;)
What’s with urban India?
Says Dr V Mohan, director of the Madras Diabetes Research Foundation and MV Diabetes Specialities Centre, Chennai: “In urban India, Type 2 diabetes is reaching epidemic proportions. In the rural areas, the prevalence is 4-5 times lower than in the urban areas. In the 1970s, the prevalence of diabetes among urban Indians was reported to be 2.1 per cent.”
In fact, in a recent epidemiological study — the Chennai Urban Rural Epidemiology Study (CURES), conducted by Dr Mohan and his colleagues, involving a large representative sample size of 26,001 individuals aged 20 years and above, reveals that 16 per cent of Chennai residents are now affected by diabetes. http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-443534,prtpage-1.cms
Here is another one:

So, why is diabetes on the rise in Indians? The most likely reasons are a rapid urbanization of our society and a change in our life styles. Obesity (especially the kind in which weight gain is around the waist), a diet rich in fats and refined cereals, lack of exercise and increased levels of stress are all-important causes. The importance of these can be gauged from the fact that the rate of diabetes in rural Indians is far lower (5%) than in urban India (12 - 14%).
http://www.doctorndtv.com/feature/detailarchivefeature.asp?id=47

I can imagine that it's hard to get a correct number of diabetics in urban areas not to mention rural? I doubt that diabetes screening is widely availalbe in rural areas, many are simply harly accessible. However, the number will rise and the ratio may change as more rural areas become urbanized, and population will have access to cheap processed and junk foods.
There is also a strong genetic predisposition towards diabetes, so of course they will be much better off on a low carb diet, which is absolutely unrealistic in India due to financial cituation, religion, traditions, etc. This being said, diabetes is also prevalent in Finland, where population is mainly meat/saturated fat eater, and do not consume lots of starches as Indians do. Again, Finns has a genetic predisposition. Diabetes is a desease of civilization and is not related to any particulate ethnic diet, high carb or not. JMO.
D.

[dina1957]

It seems that this would be pretty easy to research and track since there are such large populations of folk who live a vegan lifestyle; I guess I'd like to see more research on these populations.

The Seventh Day Adventist Church, for example, has millions of members all over the globe. They very much urge their members to eat vegan-style ONLY. Of course, as with any religion, not all members are going to follow that 100%. But it seems that studies could be done on those who do (particularly pregnant women and young children) that would clearly show any effects of vegetarianism -- positive OR negative.

HmmmI've logged my today's food into Fitday, and here are the results
Fat-Soluble VitaminsNutrientUnitsIntakeRDA%
Vitamin Amcg_RE 3218.5 80040 2.32
Vitamin Dmcg18.9 35378.53
Vitamin Emg_ATE 9.118113.89
Vitamin Kmcg 14.06 65 21.64
Vitamin Cmg120.9 360 201.54
Thiaminmg 0.82 1.1 74.57
Riboflavinmg1.351. 1123.13
Vitamin B-6mg1.25 1.3 96.02
Vitamin B-12mcg9.862.4410.94
Niacinmg19.9414142.46
Folatemcg166.27 400 41.57Trace Minerals NutrientUnitsIntakeRDA% RDA
Ironmg12.44 15 82.93
Zincmg9.84 12 82.02
Seleniummcg 203.05 553 69.18
Coppermg0.532-----
Calciummg 566.16 1000 56.62
Phosphorusmg1434.1700204.87
Magnesiummg250.08 320 78.15
Sodiummg1685.4------
Potassiummg2095.4------

My total carbs 42g, with 18 g fiber, protein - 120g. Then simply out of curiosity, I logged an imaginable day of totally vegan foods, which I would eat on a vegan diet, not refined food and sugars: oatmeal and buckwheat, lentil and chick peas, green vegetables and salad, peanuts, bran crackers, an apple, olive and flax oils. I met all the RDA requirements except Vit D, K, and B-12:
Vitamin Amcg_RE 4295.2 800536.9
Vitamin Dmcg 0 50
Vitamin Emg_ATE14.33 8179.08
Vitamin Kmcg17.7 65 27.23
Vitamin Cmg 197.2 860328.8
Thiaminmg 1.821.1 165.74
Riboflavinmg2.031.1184.43
Vitamin B-6mg2.41.3184.67
Vitamin B-12mcg0 2.40
Niacinmg 23.26 14166.17
Folatemcg1204.5 400301.12Trace Minerals
Ironmg 42.02 15280.12
Zincmg 14.31 12119.29
Seleniummcg 89.63 55162. 97
Coppermg3.13------
Calciummg1082.7 1000 108.27
Phosphorusmg1417.9700202.55
Magnesiummg991.4 4320 309.83
Sodiummg3378.9-
Potassiummg5985.3------

I'vealso logged a day of ovo-lacto vegeterian diet, and then I met all RDA requirements without excpetion: I had eggs, yougurt, cheese, and butter in addition to legumes, vegetables, fruits and some whole grain.
So I guess being a vegeterian is not a problem nutriotion wise, and even being vegan does not do any harm if the diet is supplemented with B-12 and ppl have enough sun shine for Vit-D or they can supplement it as well.
I was dissapointed that I was low on B-group, iron and zinc despite 4 oz of beef and 6 oz fish. Keep in mind that I ate 40g carbs, not 20 on Induction level, and included some bran crackers, otherwise my numbers were even lower. No wonder I have twitching and achy muscles, LOL. And I do take multi and vitB complex, cold lvier oil, and calcium/magnesium.
Regards,
D.
Trace Minerals

[Dodger]

I was dissapointed that I was low on B-group, iron and zinc despite 4 oz of beef and 6 oz fish. Keep in mind that I ate 40g carbs, not 20 on Induction level, and included some bran crackers, otherwise my numbers were even lower. No wonder I have twitching and achy muscles, LOL. And I do take multi and vitB complex, cold lvier oil, and calcium/magnesium.Dina,

I have read numerous places that the iron in meat is absorbed much better than the iron in vegetable items.


There are two major forms of dietary iron.



Heme iron, found primarily in red meats, is the most easily absorbed form.
Other forms of iron are bound to some other organic constituent of the food. Cooking tends to break these interactions and increase iron availability.

Some iron-rich foods are poor sources of the mineral because other compounds render it nonabsorbable.



The classic example is spinach. It contains iron, but it also contains considerable oxalate, which chelates it and renders it nonabsorbable.
Phytates, present in whole grains that have not been subjected to fermentation by yeast (for example, during bread making), have a similar effect.
http://medlib.med.utah.edu/NetBiochem/hi9.htm

One of the probems with the way the micro-nutrients are measured is that it is done in a lab and is not based on how much of the nutrient actually gets into the blood stream. I know that there are calcium pills that just pass through the body unabsorbed, but labs tests show lots of calcium in them. Of course, the percentage absorbed can vary from person to person.

[BJpanda]

India and China are flooded with junk and processed foods now, and those who switched from traditional whole food diets to Western junk, suffer from ovesity and diabetes. Folks in large cities switched from cooking with traditional coconut oil/ghee to hydrogenerated oils and margarine, and this alone can lead to diabetes and obesity.


Unfortunately very true for China...

Panda

[GinaLeanne]

I have a friend who is vegetarian,along with her children and grandchildren.

They eat bee pollen granules. In case you didn't know, Bee Pollen has every known nutrient known to man, the best vitamin in a natural form you can take. A man could survive alone on Bee Pollen.

When my son was 5 months old I started putting it in all of his food, it built his immune system. He would crave it and ask for it, it was so cute, he would say "be pa,be pa....
I can say this, my son never gets sick, he is a strong healthy boy, I cant even remember the last time he was sick.

So if anyone out there wants to take a good vitamin, You should look for a good Bee Pollen granule...the granules are tested as being the best source.

take care, Gina :wave:

[Rosebud]

I have a friend who is vegetarian,along with her children and grandchildren.

They eat bee pollen granules. In case you didn't know, Bee Pollen has every known nutrient known to man, the best vitamin in a natural form you can take. A man could survive alone on Bee Pollen.

When my son was 5 months old I started putting it in all of his food, it built his immune system. He would crave it and ask for it, it was so cute, he would say "be pa,be pa....
I can say this, my son never gets sick, he is a strong healthy boy, I cant even remember the last time he was sick.

So if anyone out there wants to take a good vitamin, You should look for a good Bee Pollen granule...the granules are tested as being the best source.

take care, Gina :wave:
As I posted in your other thread about this, Gina, bee pollen can be deadly for people with allergies. :exclm:
Bee pollen and royal jelly should be regarded as potentially dangerous because they cause allergic reactions. People allergic to specific pollens have developed asthma, hives, and anaphylactic shock after ingesting pollen or royal jelly [5-12]. Neurologic and gastrointestinal reactions have also been reported [13,14]. Some cases of asthma and anaphylaxis have been fatal. The potential for serious reactions is widespread because at least 5% of Americans are allergic to ragweed pollen, and bee pollen contains pollen from ragweed or plants that cross-react with ragweed, such as dandelions, sunflowers, or chrysanthemums [15,16].
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/bee.html

Also, if you read all the info on that page I have linked to, you will discover that bee pollen is not all it is cracked up to be. :rolleyes:

Rosebud:rose:

[dina1957]

Dina,

I have read numerous places that the iron in meat is absorbed much better than the iron in vegetable items.

http://medlib.med.utah.edu/NetBiochem/hi9.htm

One of the probems with the way the micro-nutrients are measured is that it is done in a lab and is not based on how much of the nutrient actually gets into the blood stream. I know that there are calcium pills that just pass through the body unabsorbed, but labs tests show lots of calcium in them. Of course, the percentage absorbed can vary from person to person.Mike:
I completely agree with you that heme iron abosorbed mushc better than non-heme. I also like to get my nutrients from real food, not the supplements. Calcium is very poorly absorbed from supplements, so I try to eat more cheese and green leafy veggies, but then I'll end up wirh either too much protein or too many carbs:lol: . I just try to eat more soups made with old fashion stock from beef, lamb, or fish bones or sometimes chicken. I slowly simmer it for at least 10 hours with an addition of little vinegar and lots of vegetables, herbs and spices. This kind of broth provides lots of calcium, magneisum and other minerals, good for digestion and simply taste great.:yum:
The only problem I have with a very low carb it's hard to get all vitamins and minerals without exceeding alloted carbs, so it requires supplements.

[dina1957]

As I posted in your other thread about this, Gina, bee pollen can be deadly for people with allergies. :exclm:I bought it for my DD who suffers from seasonal allergies, she had such a severe attack just after one small granule, the we ended up in ER. I felt so bad when my DD asked my why I was trying to kill her. It shoulod be used with a great caution.

[sirdj]

sirdj, are you aware that India is one of the countries leading the world right now in new cases of diabetes being diagnosed (I believe China is first, India second)?


That is because of the deathly sweet indian desserts that we eat. have you ever tried one?? i dont mean one in an indian restaurant out there in the west where the sweetness has been toned down but out here in an Indian Sweetmeat. They are so sweet that its unbelievable. And people here have it all the time. After every meal, when they celebrate anything, at all festivals etc etc.

and err............ does it not surprise you that the two countries listed are the two most populous countries in the world so obviously there will be more cases of diabetes. And beside that we also have malnutrition due to poverty and regular famines. So I dont think that its due to the vegetarian diet.

[potatofree]

I bought it for my DD who suffers from seasonal allergies, she had such a severe attack just after one small granule, the we ended up in ER. I felt so bad when my DD asked my why I was trying to kill her. It shoulod be used with a great caution.

The really scary thing is that there was an employee at the health food store near here who was trying to convince me it would CURE allergies!!! Luckily, I asked her pediatrician about it before I bought any. When she told me what could happen, I complained to the management of the store, but nothing was ever done. I guess they want to wait until someone DIES.

[EvelynS]

Here's a study I found that suggests a strict plant diet is not a good idea for WASP children .


1: Am J Clin Nutr. 1994 May;59(5 Suppl):1187S-1196S.

Macrobiotic nutrition and child health: results of a population-based, mixed-longitudinal cohort study in The Netherlands.

Dagnelie PC, van Staveren WA. Department of Human Nutrition, Wageningen Agricultural University, The Netherlands.

A population-based study on the nutritional status of children consuming macrobiotic diets was carried out in The Netherlands. Participants followed a macrobiotic diet based mainly on whole-grain cereals, pulses, and vegetables. Studies in children aged 0-10 y suggested that growth was retarded mainly between 6 and 18 mo. This was confirmed in a subsequent mixed-longitudinal study (including data on diet, anthropometry, blood chemistry, and pediatric examination) in 4-18 mo-old macrobiotic infants and a matched omnivorous control group. Ubiquitous deficiencies of energy, protein, vitamin B-12, vitamin D, calcium, and riboflavin were detected in macrobiotic infants, leading to retarded growth, fat and muscle wasting, and slower psychomotor development. Breast milk from macrobiotic mothers contained less vitamin B-12, calcium, and magnesium. Supplementation of the macrobiotic diet with fat (minimum 20-25 g/d), fatty fish (minimum 100-150 g/wk), and dairy products (minimum 150-250 g/d) is recommended.
PMID: 8172122 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Further studies by this group found that, in those that switched to vegetarian or omnivorous diets and were taking in moderate amounts of animal foods after the children reached 6 yrs on average, about a third of the children still had deficiencies in adolescence and some impaired cognitive development.

[dina1957]

Infant and little children MUST have animal protein and fat for normal brain and body development, especially saturated fat and cholesterol, no doubt about it.
I gave both my children hard boiled egg youlk mashed and mixed with a bit of cream, starting as early as 4 month old, at 5 month I started slowly simmered beed stock, and at 6 month they had a small amount of very well cooked (slowly simmered) beef mashed and mixed with beef stock. Calve liver cooked and mashed was at least oncwe a week on the menu. I think it's more natural and tastier way to get all vitamins and minerals. I don't think children will suffer in any way being raised as ovo/lacto vegeterianms, but vegan diet can be harmful for a developing organism.