Protein from Red Meat, Dairy Tied to Heart Risks

[doreen T]

Protein from Red Meat, Dairy Tied to Heart Risks

Wednesday, February 9, 2005


By Amy Norton

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Older women who eat a relatively large amount of protein from red meat or dairy products may have an elevated risk of dying from heart disease, the results of a large study suggest.

The findings, say researchers, call into question the long-term safety of high-protein diets -- at least the ones that don't distinguish the protein in steak and cream from that in tofu and nuts.

The investigators found that among more than 29,000 postmenopausal women, those who reported the highest intake of protein from red meat and dairy products had a roughly 40 percent higher risk of dying from heart disease over the next 15 years compared with women with the lowest intake of these foods.

The risk would seem to stem from the protein intake itself, according to lead author Dr. Linda E. Kelemen, because her group considered the subjects' overall diet -- including intake of fat, fiber and total calories -- and factors such as exercise, smoking and body weight.

The findings are published in the current issue of the American Journal of Epidemiology.

High-protein and fatty foods are staples of Atkins-style diets that shun carbohydrates such as white bread and pasta. Though these diets have been shown to spur weight loss and dips in blood cholesterol in the short term, many experts worry that if people stick with such a menu over time, it could spell trouble for the blood vessels and heart.

Although the new study looked at women's normal protein intake -- and not high-protein, low-carb diets -- it has implications for adherents to those weight-loss plans, said Kelemen, an assistant professor of epidemiology at the Mayo Clinic College of Medicine in Rochester, Minnesota.

"I think it's very relevant to them," she told Reuters Health. First and foremost, Kelemen said, people should recognize that "not all proteins are equal," and replacing white bread and other highly processed carbs with steak and butter is not the way to go.

More healthful choices, according to Kelemen, include fish and chicken, which were not linked to heart disease mortality in this study.

Better still, perhaps, would be vegetable protein sources, such as beans, nuts, tofu and peanut butter; the study found that women with the highest intakes of these foods had a 30 percent lower risk of heart disease death than women with the lowest intakes.

In contrast, the findings indicate that a woman who opts for two servings of red meat every day instead of a similar number of calories from carbs would have a 44 percent higher risk of dying from heart disease over the next 15 years. A similar pattern emerged when the researchers looked at dairy foods, including milk, cream, ice cream, yogurt and cheese.

Exactly why protein from red meat and dairy products might boost heart risks is unclear, and it's possible, Kelemen said, that factors not captured in this study could explain the association.

However, she noted, there is animal research showing that protein from animal sources, independent of fat and cholesterol content, can promote artery-clogging plaques. Soy protein, on the other hand, showed no such effects.

SOURCE: American Journal of Epidemiology, February 1, 2005.


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=594&e=1&u=/nm/20050209/hl_nm/protein_heart_dc

[Tiltowait]

Maybe the iron content? I'd be interested in a breakdown of the results into older women who donated blood regularly and those who did not.

[Wyvrn]

Wearing your seatbelt also increases your heart attack risk. Statistics are funny that way.

Wyv

[mrfreddy]

this is probably another example of over zealous interpretation of the data by some crusading researcher... you know, it's probably something like 14 people died from heart disease, and 8 of them ate more meat and dairy, so voila, you have a forty percent greater chance, blah blah blah.... (my math is off but you get the idea...)

[SadLady]

Oh, sometimes I think people just don't have enough to talk about.

[ceberezin]

Although the new study looked at women's normal protein intake -- and not high-protein, low-carb diets -- it has implications for adherents to those weight-loss plans, said Kelemen, an assistant professor of epidemiology at the Mayo Clinic College of Medicine in Rochester, Minnesota.

Here's the issue. Red meat combined with carbohydrates behaves differently in the body than red meat and fewer carbohydrates. Clearly, this study did not control for carbohydrates, so the data on red meat is useless. This phenomenon has been explained over and over again. Wht can't these people get it? Any study that makes claims about meat and fat without controlling carbohydrates is useless.

They seemed to have some generalized data about diets of post-menopausal women, and sifted out the data about red meat. The fact that they chose red meat as the variable to look at shows the researchers' bias. No wonder thet got the results they did.

[DietSka]

Reading the article it doesn't seem that anybody actually died on this study, it looks like it's just the "researchers" having an opinion. Based on what, I wonder. Could it perhaps be: "red meat. we know it's bad. 20% more risk of dying. dairy. contains satfat. really bad. 12% more risk of dying", a.s.o.?

[eepobee]

hmmm...red meat and dairy, is it? then somebody better call the masai and tell them to start dying from heart disease quick!

[Duparc]

Interesting, but, another piece of independent but supportive information arises from observations on the traditional Eskimo diets based on protein and fat. While their diets appeared to possess many health benefts the downsides were that women of around 40 had the physical appearance of American women twice their age and that the average age of death of all causes was 10 year less. Stefansson who reported this adopted the same diet yet apparently lived an active life until his death in 1962 at the age of 82.

[dane]

:rolleyes:

There are so many silly things in this article.................

[JHTuresson]

"In 1986, 29,017 postmenopausal Iowa women without cancer, coronary heart disease (CHD), or diabetes were followed.. ..The authors identified 4,843 new cancers, 739 CHD deaths, 1,676 cancer deaths, and 3,978 total deaths"...

[eepobee]

Interesting, but, another piece of independent and supportive information arises from observations on the traditional Eskimo diets based on protein and fat. While their diets appeared to possess many health benefts the downsides were that women of around 40 had the physical appearance of American women twice their age and that the average age of death of all causes was 10 year less. Stefansson who reported this adopted the same diet yet apparently lived an active life until his death in 1962 at the age of 82.
i don't see how this supports what the authors of the posted article concluded; that red meat and dairy consumption are positively correlated with heart disease. unless someone can explain the masai, who eat almost nothing but red meat and milk and have absolutely no cancer or CHD, this conclusion cannot be justified.

[AJCole]

If eskimo women died younger and looked older, it probabley had alot to do with living in a very sunny place. All that snow reflecting the suns rays (as well as the wind) would be very damaging to the skin. Also, women traditionally have allowed the best foods to go to the men in thier lives, how did this play out in Eskimo social stucture? Were women respected, or considered property (and abuses)?

[LondonIan]

The bit I found rather more interesting in the study was:
Nutrient density models estimated risk ratios from a simulated substitution It also found no change in risk from substituting carbs for protein

[K Walt]

More crap science.

It's even crappy for epidemiology, which isn't science, but number-crunching.

Anyway, at least they didn't it was the FAT that kills you.

Now they're saying it's the PROTEIN that kills you.

I wish they'd get their prejudices straight.

Sheesh.

[dane]

So I've been thinking about this stupid article this morning........... exactly WHAT about the protein? I mean, it's all the same stuff, really, just composition of amino acids (AA's). So is it certain amino acids that are causing problems?

at least the ones that don't distinguish the protein in steak and cream from that in tofu and nuts. I mean, really, why does this matter? Your body will take in whatever protein source you give it, and break it down into the AA's......... the only difference between plant and animal proteins are that animal ones contain all the essential AA's humans require, while plant ones don't, unless you eat the right combinations.

More healthful choices, according to Kelemen, include fish and chicken,So how are the proteins in fish and chicken superior to red meat?
I don't get this study. Am I missing something here???
More crap science.
Yeah, I'm thinkin'! :agree:

[TBoneMitch]

AJ Cole,

very good point about the sun and the Eskimos. Al the native peoples who live outdoors with the sun beating down on them, tend to look older more quickly, because of the constant aggression of the sun rays.
Other examples: The Kalahari Bushmen, and Australian Aborgines, who in middle age have much wrinkled skin. However, they keep all their teeth in old age, their sight, digestion, muscular strenght and hearing are perfect until they die.

And Duparc, didn<t Stefannson die at 88? I'm not sure however.

[jmom]

If eskimo women died younger and looked older, it probabley had alot to do with living in a very sunny place. All that snow reflecting the suns rays (as well as the wind) would be very damaging to the skin. Also, women traditionally have allowed the best foods to go to the men in thier lives, how did this play out in Eskimo social stucture? Were women respected, or considered property (and abuses)?

HMM... On the North Slope of Alaska, our sun sets in November and we don't see it peak above the horizon again until February. Yes, it is the opposite in the summer, but sun reflecting on snow is not a significant problem. :D

In northern climes, even the summer sun is a very different animal due to the angle of the rays. I grew up in Colorado and burn very easily. I can spend the entire day (at least the part I'm awake since it's up 24 hrs in the far north) in the Alaskan summer sun and never burn-I'd be fried crispy with the same amount of exposure in Colorado. I'm allergic to all sun screens so this is a good thing. Skin cancer is not at the top of northern clime health problems list-may change as the ozone dissappears.

[Duparc]

Okay 'eepogee' let me try to simplify what I said, "If consuming protein increases the risk of cancer for mature women, which is its downside, then there are other downsides that have also been observed, like aging quicker and dying at an earlier age, which have been observed among Eskimo women who ate a similar diet". Does this help?

I raised this as an additional point for consideration as it correlates to the thread. Like others on this site, I am also aware of the longevity of the Masai tribe and others too whose traditional diets lend themselves to good health, but not always to longevity, which is not the premise of this thread.

If I can take the liberty to respond to two other posts which are begging answers. Whether Eskimos maltreat their wives is probably more of a question of relativity rather than culture and whether Stefansson died at 82 or 88 is a moot point, and hardly worthy of raising. The article that I read recently stipulates 82. I am not disagreeing with either it nor the post that raised it.

[bvtaylor]

So I've been thinking about this stupid article this morning........... exactly WHAT about the protein? I mean, it's all the same stuff, really, just composition of amino acids (AA's). So is it certain amino acids that are causing problems?

I mean, really, why does this matter? Your body will take in whatever protein source you give it, and break it down into the AA's......... the only difference between plant and animal proteins are that animal ones contain all the essential AA's humans require, while plant ones don't, unless you eat the right combinations.

So how are the proteins in fish and chicken superior to red meat?
I don't get this study. Am I missing something here???

Yeah, I'm thinkin'! :agree:
I'm going to hypothesize here, that often when a premise like this tying specific proteins to disease is there, that there are often other factors that may be the underlying triggers. We see this often in veggies where one particular veggie appears to be healthy, but the compound that we think is the magic one is actually not... it's sometimes the combination of vitanutrients in a whole food that makes it do it's thing.

To look at dairy and red meat in another way, one might consider that the majority of available red meat out there, at least here in the US, is beef, is regulated by the FDA, is fed growth hormones, certain kinds of feed(predominantly corn and who knows what else--ground up cow parts, hence "mad cow"), and the dairy in this country is primarily cows' milk in origin, whether it is milk, yogurt, cheese, etc.

So dairy and red meat could verily have a direct link. I seriously doubt that this "red meat" is lamb, venison, or goat--and the dairy is far less likely to be sheep or goat's milk in origin.

It's possible that other chemical compounds are attaching to the otherwise natural protein, causing more to be ingested than just the good stuff. Organically produced meats are not as common.

Since no distinction is made as to what "red meat" is primarily comprised of and what the "dairy" is comprised of, and how that food chain is grown and harvested, what common facilities are used for "cows", what pesticides are used in the environs, what growth hormones, what vaccines are used...

We can only wonder...

Moreover, assuming that beef is a primary staple for protein in this country--how natural is it to the human body to subsist primarily from cows? In indigenous cultures, I would suspect there is more fish and poultry in a diet. There are not as many available warm grasslands for beef cows for the Inuit peoples, or Eskimo peoples, unless I am mistaken, so looking at comparative diets may be misleading.

[Wyvrn]

Maybe the iron content? I'd be interested in a breakdown of the results into older women who donated blood regularly and those who did not.

If there is a real correlation between red meat and heart disease, I'd agree that this is more likely to be it than the protein. The genetic condition that is usually implicated as the cause of iron overload disease occurs in 1/200 people. The condition causes people to absorb more iron than they need from their food. Menstrual and other bleeding removes excess iron.

Wyv

[dina1957]

Interesting, but, another piece of independent but supportive information arises from observations on the traditional Eskimo diets based on protein and fat. While their diets appeared to possess many health benefts the downsides were that women of around 40 had the physical appearance of American women twice their age and that the average age of death of all causes was 10 year less. Stefansson who reported this adopted the same diet yet apparently lived an active life until his death in 1962 at the age of 82.May be the fact that Eskimo consumed animal protein mosty raw and /or lightly boiled, rather than chared and BBQd, and it was mostly marin animals and fish makes the difference? There is intersting observation comparing cooked animal protein (meat, dairy) and raw (non-pasturized milk, raw fish and egg youolks)?
http://www.innvista.com/health/nutrition/amino/pdamage.htm
I've also read the same in a book, called "The Biochemcial Machine...". The authour also speaks of detrimental effect of COOKED animal protein for human body. She advises replace cooked meat with raw fish (sashimi), herring and such and raw dairy (milk, cream, butter, and cheese) and egg youlks in addition to lots of fresh (uncooked) vegetables and fruits. http://www.matrifocus.com/LAM04/wisewoman.htm
Personally, I prefer slow cooking methods such as simmering or stewing to grilling and broiling of meat, and I avoid BBQ like a plaque.

[Lisa N]

http://aje.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/3/239

Here's a link to the abstract of the study above. The diets of the women were assessed by mailed questionaire and it appears that they made no distinction as to the source of the red meat (McDonald's Quarter Pounder vs. homemade beef roast) and may have included processed red meats (lunchmeats with nitrates) as well.

I found this quote from the abstract to be of particular interest:

Although no association was observed with any outcome when animal protein was substituted for carbohydrate, CHD mortality was associated with red meats

Once again, they confuse correlation with causation. ;)

[Duparc]

Dina, I trust that your are not misunderstanding my intention whenever I introduce a subject. It does not mean that I believe all what is written; frequently it is to add to the thread and hopefully to broaden the discussion.

Two points of interest. Seemingly the diets of Eskimos residing close to the sea had high fish content but those living further inland depended on Caribou meat. The other is regarding fish oils. Although fish oils are nutritious, you will realise that they are not saturated, and as such, they create those nasty wee free-radicals which are best avoided. Others will find reason to object, but, whenever plague was analysed in those who died from cardiac problems, 70% of the plague was composed of unsaturated fats.

[EvelynS]

[

Exactly why protein from red meat and dairy products might boost heart risks is unclear, and it's possible, Kelemen said, that factors not captured in this study could explain the association.

This sentence means there is no known explanation for this effect. The association between red meat/dairy protein and heart disease may be because they are each separately linked to some third factor, and thus their association is not genuine.

They found no association between protein from animal sources in total ( i.e. red meat, white meat, fish, dairy) and heart disease. So people eating a very large amount of mixed meat, fish and dairy had no greater risk than those eating a small amount.

[K Walt]

Thanks, Lisa, for the link to the abstract.

A few things REALLY jump out at me.


As I have ranted on about before, the effects they are talking about here are TINY, and virtually meaningless.

"Although no association was observed with any outcome when animal protein was substituted for carbohydrate, CHD mortality was associated with red meats (risk ratio = 1.44, 95% CI: 1.06, 1.94) and dairy products (risk ratio = 1.41, 95% CI: 1.07, 1.86) when substituted for servings per 1,000 kcal (4.2 MJ) of carbohydrate foods"

A RR (risk ratio) 1.44 is MINISCULE and meaningless. In epidemiological studies, you can get an RR of 1.4 for almost anything just by slicing the numbers different ways. In epidemiological studies, you need an RR of 3.0 or more before the effect is meaningful. Otherwise, it is just mathematical noise.

Also, look at the real numbers here.

29,017 postmenopausal Iowa women. (Not necessarily a representative sample of everyone.)

15 years

739 CHD deaths.

That means out of nearly 30,000 women, only 739 developed heart disease. That's s risk of 2.5% or two out of a hundred, on average.

So the difference, if there really is one, amounts to a handful of women out of 30,000 or so.

Based on a form they filled out.

[Groggy60]

Interesting how low-carb diets get condemed when the information does not even mention carbs. People eating red meat twice a day sounds suspect, perhaps a lot of hamburgers and luncheon meat.

Eskimo women look older than white women at 40. Perhaps its genetic, and from living an outdoor life, and from living over half the year in a climate dryer than most deserts. Saying it is because of a meat diet doesn't follow to me.

[woodpecker]

Red meat combined with carbohydrates behaves differently in the body than red meat and fewer carbohydrates. Clearly, this study did not control for carbohydrates, so the data on red meat is useless.

This makes sense, although pasteurized dairy may not be helping much either.