Questions

[NoLogo]

I'm actually really getting into this, and would like some edification. The Inuit did noy have office jobs or factory jobs, thier survival was primarily based on searching for game. I don't think dismissing the arguments pur forth by others ( immune system damage etc. ) can really go unnoticed until it's clarified that you have to be really active to be really healthy. Eating meat or whatever low carb food at your desk is not going to result in wonderful blood tests and if it does then I'm at a loss. Taking an hour of step class or aquacise a couple times a week is not enough. Plus, the Inuit, needed fat because they often went without meat for days. So eating it 4x a day every day with comparitively little physical exertion is probably not that healthy. I'm really not arguing against the diet with other lifestyle changes, but it's important to be active. I'm really not trying to come across as critical, I just see so much emphasis on what they ate and not on what they did. So, yeah, try to get as much physical effort in as possible. And every time you want to go to the fridge, consider moving it 30 miles away with a few snow covered hills and vegetables in between.

[Dodger]

NoLogo,

What exactly is your question?

I agree that exercise is healthy and I doubt few would argue that it is not.

[NoLogo]

My Question is:

How can you devote all these threads to the diet and virtually nothing to the actual lifestyle? All criticisms seemed to be dismissed because <enter primitive society here> ate this way. I think, personally, that when a study arises ( tonight's US news was the red meat- colon cancer bit ) or someone on this forum develops some malady someone should address the fact that you cannot exclude vital aspects of a person's lifestyle and expect to achieve the same success. It's just important to not base everything, or not more than , say, 50% around the diet itself. So, I was hoping that more people would touch on this. That's all. Thanks.

[Lisa N]

NoLogo, excercise is encouraged by every low carb author I've read. In fact, Dr. Atkins went so far as to say, "It's not optional".

Eating meat or whatever low carb food at your desk is not going to result in wonderful blood tests and if it does then I'm at a loss.

Then I guess you'll just have to be at a loss because that is precisely what has happened for many of those who post here. I'm not discounting the benefits of excercise, but it's quite possible to obtain good bloodwork results through diet alone.

BTW...have you had a look at the exercise forum? It's quite active...in more ways than one. ;)

[dina1957]

I completely agree with you, NoLogo. Trying to adapt Traditional Inuit diet (or any other very drustic diet) without actually considering the entire lifestyle, activity level, climatic conditions and genetic adaptation of these ethnic groups is what I see as a gruesome mistake. But if some ppl think it's healthy for them, then let them be. After all, there are also fruiterians, who don't eat anything but fruit, and somehow, they survive too. I think taking everything to the extreme is not healthy. Unfortunately, LC diet is easy to follow for those who think that exercise neither practical nor neccessary for a good health. But those who are active and watch their processed cabrs and sugars intake, can greatly benefit from this WOE. JMHO.
Dina

[Samuel]

I believe in low carb diet since it has done great job for me. I lost my weight in about 4 months without hunger or any kind of pain and kept my weight for about a year and a half. My blood pressure went down, my HDL/LDL ratio has improved and my triglycerides have gone to less than half in addition to many other health improvements.

So, the main reason we all believe in this diet is in the results we have got. Whenever someone tells us "I can't believe you. Any body who eats this way should get heart problems,..etc", we may answer him " The Eskimos have been eating this way for generations and have been doing fine", but obviously, this is not all what we like about this diet!

[Dodger]

My Question is:

How can you devote all these threads to the diet and virtually nothing to the actual lifestyle? All criticisms seemed to be dismissed because <enter primitive society here> ate this way. I think, personally, that when a study arises ( tonight's US news was the red meat- colon cancer bit ) or someone on this forum develops some malady someone should address the fact that you cannot exclude vital aspects of a person's lifestyle and expect to achieve the same success. It's just important to not base everything, or not more than , say, 50% around the diet itself. So, I was hoping that more people would touch on this. That's all. Thanks.
The reason that the diet is usually discussed here is that it is a low-carb forum and diet is what most people are concerned with.

I agree that looking at diet in isolation can give misleading conclusions, but it would be impossible to factor in all relevent elements of a culture to determine there inter-relationships with diet. That is one problem with the alleged Mediterranean diet. There are multilple cultures involved and even within each culture there is no fixed diet.

As has been mentioned before, there are multiple Inuit cultures that have different traditions and are just lumped together.

[Kestrel]

So, the perfect diet for those much less active than walrus-hunters is a low-fat/high-carb diet?? Yawn...

[grandpa]

"And every time you want to go to the fridge, consider moving it 30 miles away with a few snow covered hills and vegetables in between"

Very clever!

BTW, my lipid profile improved dramatically after six months. I have an office desk job. I've since started exercising though.

[NoLogo]

So, the perfect diet for those much less active than walrus-hunters is a low-fat/high-carb diet?? Yawn...

Hey. I'm certainly not saying that. All I'm saying is that diet alone is not going to transalte into long term health if you don't do some sort of physical work. I don't eat anything cooked and 99% of my fruits/vegetables are high fibre. Obviously it's unreasonable to trap seal all day, but the physical exertion involved is somewhat similar to jogging/biking or my personal favorite, walking. It just bothers me that real health concerns are not investigated beyond food intake. There are bona fide links between low-carb, high-carb, vegetarian and various serious disorders because so many people are involved with their 'health' on a very superficial level.

[Lisa N]

It just bothers me that real health concerns are not investigated beyond food intake.

NoLogo, not being terribly involved in other areas of the forum, I think you miss the myriad of posts that contain phrases such as "if you're not currently excercising, now would be a good time to start". ;)
Excercise does have many benefits; it's good for the cardiovascular system, it's good for building muscle/toning and increasing metabolism and it has the potential to impact blood chemistry to a small degree.
However...what you eat has a much greater impact on blood chemistry than how much you move your body or for how long.
Something else to consider is that many people who are overweight, especially the severly overweight are focusing on getting the weight to a lower level so that they can safely excercise without risking bones/joints.
You see lots and lots of posts on this forum regarding what to eat because...well...it's Low Carb Support (not physical fitness support). Excercise is part of that, true enough, but it's not the main focus of this forum. We have a forum dedicated to excercising at various levels for those that wish to discuss the topic or need advice as well.

[NoLogo]

Lisa:

While I appreciate the fact that, yes, this forum is more so about menus that anything else, isn't it naive and irresponsible to deflect criticisms posted by quite a few people simply because they are having problems while low carbing? Yeah, if there weren't myriad comments refuting all studies/links/personal difficulties solely based on food intake alone, I wouldn't be as compelled to discuss this aspect. And the main focus of the war zone is to discuss issues such as these in as civil a way as possible. Why can't I talk about this? I'm not interested in talking about exercise.

[Lisa N]

Why can't I talk about this? I'm not interested in talking about exercise.

Forgive me for being confused, but it's not clear what, exactly, you want to discuss here. Your first post in this thread seemed to indicate that you wanted to discuss the importance of excecise paired with diet. Are we on to a new topic now?

[NoLogo]

Okay. I wanted to talk more about how diet/exercise/overall health are inextricably linked in reference to ancestral nutrition. I don't want to share my soccer schedule or when I work out. I also just wanted to voice my frustrations about why few people here consider others' ( and I know there are stupid posts that aren't based on a lot of research ) posts on a more holistic level. Nothing terribly profound , really, just some sort of recognition. I don't think it's terribly supportive when the average person can't explain thier situation for fear they get mocked, or at the very least told repeatedly to post thier menu. I'm honestly not trying to be sarcastic, I realize this is isn't the main concern of most Atkins' followers, but I am human, and reading insulting posts that could have been used as informing motivates me to write.

[potatofree]

What, specifically, is it that bothers you?

It's hard to address it when you keep talking about "insulting posts" but I can't really comment without knowing exactly which posts are bothering you.

[MsTwacky]

I'm actually really getting into this, and would like some edification.

Do you even low carb? Looking at your stats it seems like you just came onto this site to ask self righteous questions?


I don't eat anything cooked and 99% of my fruits/vegetables are high fibre.

What food plan are you on? Why did you decide to join a low carb site?

[NoLogo]

I'm not trying to be self righteous. I'm not trying to shake the foundations of forums.lowcarber.org with ideas I think are incredible because obviously they could be conjured up by anyone particularly interested in the concept of evolution. All I am saying is what I am saying. It's just a post about a pertinent topic. I just think that inquiring more about <enter problematic low carber here > lifestyle could elude to the real problem preventing health and prevent sardonic replies. And yes, most are not sardonic.

[Wyvrn]

My personal experience is that diet has far more influence on my health than exercise. In fact, I got fat and developed insulin resistance despite a high activity level. I was diagnosed with metabolic syndrome and my physician advised me to go on a low carb diet. Since then I have experienced far better health and slow but steady weight loss despite being older and relatively inactive. If I had to pick one lifestyle factor to improve, it would definitely be diet.

Perhaps a large amount of exercise is more necessary for health and weight loss success when following a low-fat/high carb diet.

Wyv

[Kristine]

...until it's clarified that you have to be really active to be really healthy.

I disagree. Heavy exercise puts oxidative stress on the body, as well as straining the immune system, joints, etc. I'd have to say being somewhat active might be what you were getting at.

Eating meat or whatever low carb food at your desk is not going to result in wonderful blood tests and if it does then I'm at a loss.

It happens and there are plenty of examples. While exercise has been shown to help improve insulin sensitivity, controlling insulin by diet alone is more than adequate to get one's lipid profile in line.

Taking an hour of step class or aquacise a couple times a week is not enough.

Why not? Says who?

I don't argue that some strength training and a li'l cardio is healthy. But you seem to be operating from the standpoint of having a body full of carbs that need to be burned off. When it comes to exercise, "enough is as good as a feast."

Here's my exercise routine: I do light strength training a few times a week. Barely work to failure, barely feel any soreness. My cardio? Walking home from the grocery store with 20 lbs of food in a backpack. I also walk to and from work, though that doesn't really qualify as 'cardio.' But I'm in near perfect health, I haven't had a cold in ages, I sleep like a baby, my blood tests are squeaky clean, and I'm fit enough to toss cases of beer around at work and run up the stairs two at a time without getting winded.

Sorry to make this a total 'me' post, but I just don't see how doing tons of exercise when you have no interest in it makes your quality of life any better than just doing some.

[MsTwacky]

I'm not trying to be self righteous.
What are you trying to do?

I'm not trying to shake the foundations of forums.lowcarber.org with ideas I think are incredible because obviously they could be conjured up by anyone particularly interested in the concept of evolution.

Don't worry, no foundations shaken.

All I am saying is what I am saying.

So what is it that you are saying? Talking in circles maybe fun but what's your point EXACTLY?

[doralisa]

If your plan is N/A, what exactly drew you to the forum to check it out? What were you interested in learning or sharing?

[aqvaluqtuq]

It always cracks me up when people start talking about northern native cultures as if they actually knew what they were talking about. Do you actually know any Inupiaq people? How about a Yupik or two? Have you ever lived, day in day out, year after year within either of these cultures? Have you ever spent time with the elders hearing stories of their past? Have you ever eaten pokmituk, ingaloqs, muktuk, caq, quaq, titalik, tutu, qoguq, aqutuk, or any other traditional eskimo foods?? I bet you haven't.....but you know what? I have, on a regular basis.

Just because I read a book on heart surgery it doesn't make me a surgeon. Just because you read a few articles about the traditional eskimo diet does not mean you are now a expert on northern nutrition and cultural habits.

I wonder why you would come into this forum and criticize people for trying to improve their health in a way that works for them. I think maybe you have too much time on your hands.

[bluesmoke]

Relax people, this troll has been here before. He's just an example of the immature atention seeker, and isn't worth the effort. Nyah Levi

[fatburner]

He probably isn't worth the effort. But I always get the impression with these low carb naysayers that perhaps their paradigm will start to feel a little shaky when they hear so many people cheerfully (be that sarcastically or otherwise) offering up their success stories with low carb health and weightloss. The personal experience of others is so confounding when you base your opinions on bad science (however long standing) or media encouraged righteous indignation.... e.g. sat fat is unhealthy, everybody knows that and NUMEROUS studies have PROVEN it. Or this latest 'exercise is much more important than low carb diets in the total health picture'. How could we all be so silly?. I always think of poor James Fixx when people start extolling the relative importance of exercise over diet, exercising himself into a high carb diet induced early grave. At least he was fit when he died young.

cheers,
the Cortisol King

[NoLogo]

I think I do know more about aboriginal culture because I live in Manitoba, Canada where a very significant segment of the population is metis/cree etc. Anyone from Canada who belongs to this board probably has, at the very least, been enrolled in school courses about such people. If you were to open any text about Canada, I would hope that quite a bit of it would detail this population. I'm 23, and so within my education at least, a huge effort was put forth to describe such a incredible group of people. So, I also know the devastating effects Diabetes has had because they were taken away from their traditional diet. I /do/ want to share but not for fear I be laughed at or even worse be marked with that horrible word, 'troll'. I eat raw foods/vegan. Basically it's the same spin yet without any animal products. I'm not hear to preach the gospel in ethical terms. The way I modify raw foodism is by eating foods that are native to a particular region ( berries, apples- low carb, high fibre fruits; high fibre, low carb vegetables, and the staple of my diet is almonds :-) So, I guess my interest is taking this a step further and really analyzing the evolution bit. I'm trying to illustrate my intent, so if you are unintentionally offended don't reply.

[nosouix]

When someone ask you to post your menu, it is so they may help you find the culprit that is causing your frustration with your weight loss.

Exercise or not, it is usually something they are eating that is causing them not to lose weight or even worse, to gain it.

It is not done to be rude or nosey, everyone is just trying to help.

This is LOWCARBER.ORG, a place for people to share their experiences of a low carb diet. We get help and support from other low carbers.

If you are not happy with the types of threads you find here, you should start your own website. I am new here and have found information on every subject not just low carb.

I love my LOWCARBER.ORG just the way it is. If I don't like the subject, I change the page.

Souix

[MsTwacky]

The way I modify raw foodism is by eating foods that are native to a particular region ( berries, apples- low carb, high fibre fruits; high fibre, low carb vegetables, and the staple of my diet is almonds :-) So, I guess my interest is taking this a step further and really analyzing the evolution bit. I'm trying to illustrate my intent, so if you are unintentionally offended don't reply.

NoLogo, you eat great!! Why are you on this board? Do you have any weight to lose? Or are you just here to inquire about why it is we eat the way we do?

I for one am not offended and would not resort to calling you names, however it seems you would have a much better fellowship with others by joining PETA.

Or are you here to be a "Godsend" and show us the errors of our ways?

[Lisa N]

The way I modify raw foodism is by eating foods that are native to a particular region ( berries, apples- low carb, high fibre fruits; high fibre, low carb vegetables, and the staple of my diet is almonds :-)

Apples and most other fruits are not native to the region that you currently live in. If they are native to the region of your ancestors, that's a bit different. Almonds also are not native to the region that you live in.
I also have to wonder what your source of vitamin B-12 is as it is only found naturally in a form easily utilized by humans in animal products. Also, what is your source of complete proteins/essential amino acids?
Good for you on eating your vegetables and lots of them, but make sure that you aren't shorting yourself in things that your body needs, such as vitamin B-12 and essential amino acids.

[RCFletcher]

With quite a lot of people it sort of happens in reverse. I lost weight first, then joined a gym and became more active and lost more weight. You get into a positive spiral as opposed tp the negative one where you don't exercise becasue you are obese.

For many people I think diet is the first thing, the rest comes later. When I was at my maximum I couldn't even walk upstairs let alone run on a tread mill. But yes... a holistic appraoch is what's needed.


Edit: So, in a nutshell, would you describe yoiurself as a srt of low carb vegan (sorry about the pun I couldn't resist it :) )

[NoLogo]

I realize I may be taking this too far , but then again this is just another thread. As far as B12 goes, it is a bacterium and is therefore present in vegetables grown in manure rich soil.

Peta is just an organization doing what its members think is right- just like you're doing what you think is right. Everyone is just seeking something.

All right. I'm 23 with a lot of free time. I'm into humanism, philosophy, psychology/neurology, and science in general.

I think also , you can't take it personally when someone criticizes low-carb ( Atkins specfically I think ) because they simply ( but understandably ) don't consider the huge emotional aspect of obesity. When Peta or whomever releases a campaign or study it's not some sort of convoluted effort to increase your size.

[RCFletcher]

I'm sorry, B12 isn't a bacterium. It ias produced by bacteria. It seesm that if you want to get it from well manured vegetables, they need to be fertilized with human manure and then eaten unwashed!

This link is from the vegetarian society - you mught trust it more than something form us meat eaters:

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html
The current nutritional consensus is that no plant foods can be relied on as a safe source of vitamin B12.

This link to the vegan society is also interesting:
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/b12/

Clinical deficiency can cause anaemia or nervous system damage. Most vegans consume enough B12 to avoid clinical deficiency. Two subgroups of vegans are at particular risk of B12 deficiency: long-term vegans who avoid common fortified foods (such as raw food vegans or macrobiotic vegans) and breastfed infants of vegan mothers whose own intake of B12 is low.

If for any reason you choose not to use fortified foods or supplements you should recognise that you are carrying out a dangerous experiment - one that many have tried before with consistently low levels of success

I'm not having a go. It's just that I have no desire to see you get ill - even if we do not share the same philosophies on food!

[potatofree]

IMO, PETA Members may be doing what they think is right on some level, but on a larger scale they don't know what PETA itself is actually DOING!

A lot of members are probably well-meaning animal lovers, totally unaware of what the zealots on the upper levels are doing with the money generated by the "troops".

[Lisa N]

IMO, PETA Members may be doing what they think is right on some level, but on a larger scale they don't know what PETA itself is actually DOING!

A lot of members are probably well-meaning animal lovers, totally unaware of what the zealots on the upper levels are doing with the money generated by the "troops".

PF that may be, but if someone is going to join and support an organization, especially in a financial way, wouldn't it be wise to first investigate a little and find out who that organization in turn supports? The links between PETA and terrorist groups like SHAQ and ALF are all over the internet. The average PETA member may not be involved in such shady doings but their financial contributions support it for those that do engage in such things. :p

[NoLogo]

Yeah, I agree, Peta is probably not the best example of appropriate activism. It's principles are sound, but it takes the wrong approach.

[NoLogo]

RCFletcher:

I've seen the vegsociety site and I do realize that eating any vegetable grown in manure rich soil is not going to render it replete with B12. The only non-animal source of B12 I can imagine would be the mushroom simply because of its ability to absorb nutrients. I'm guessing any fungi with similar properties would have the same ability, but I don't know. Oddly enough,I find the psychological aspect of primitive diet(s) quite fascinating.The 'reward system' of fruit and why it's better not to exercise immediately after eating ( scavenging I suppose preceded eating ) are especially neat. I could go on and on.


This link is from the vegetarian society - you mught trust it more than something form us meat eaters

I don't base the validity of arguments on your depraved morality. I'm kidding, thanks for replying to my posts.

[RCFletcher]

Dear NoLogo,

Quote:
"I don't base the validity of arguments on your depraved morality".

OK, so you're kidding. I have been a vegetarian. I was one for about 7 years right through college and university. I don't regard it as a moral issue. I realised my own reasons for being a vegetarian were seriously flawed and I actually really liked meat so I went back to eating it.

I can't understand if you are interested in primative diets why you don't eat meat. Man has hunted since he started to walk upright and even species of humans which came before Homo Sapiens used fire to cook food. (I have seen preserved remains of fires in caves where Neanderthal (sp?) man lived in both Gibraltar and Torquay, Devon, UK.

From speaking to a vegan friend (yes, I have one) I understand the only real source of B12 available to vegans is yeast extract. (English products like marmite) maybe you should look into this.

[faithcrow]

Relax people, this troll has been here before. He's just an example of the immature atention seeker, and isn't worth the effort. Nyah Levi
I agree, bluesmoke. I was going to say that it sounds like someone is in the mood for a good old fashioned argument. but isn't this what the forum is for? they even warn you about it before you join in. Iv'e got my ringside seat.

[Dodger]

From speaking to a vegan friend (yes, I have one) I understand the only real source of B12 available to vegans is yeast extract. (English products like marmite) maybe you should look into this. Robert,

When or not unfortified yeast has the form of B12 that the body can use is not clear cut. From the Mercola web site http://www.mercola.com/2002/jan/26/vegetarianism_myths_02.htm

Additionally, claims are made in vegan and vegetarian literature that B12 is present in certain algae, tempeh (a fermented soy product) and Brewer's yeast. All of them are false as vitamin B12 is only found in animal foods. Brewer's and nutritional yeasts do not contain B12 naturally; they are always fortified from an outside source. There is not real B12 in plant sources but B12 analogues -- they are similar to true B12, but not exactly the same and because of this they are not bioavailable (13). It should be noted here that these B12 analogues can impair absorption of true vitamin B12 in the body due to competitive absorption, placing vegans and vegetarians who consume lots of soy, algae, and yeast at a greater risk for a deficiency (14).

[NoLogo]

I can't understand if you are interested in primative diets why you don't eat meat. Man has hunted since he started to walk upright and even species of humans which came before Homo Sapiens used fire to cook food. (I have seen preserved remains of fires in caves where Neanderthal (sp?) man lived in both Gibraltar and Torquay, Devon, UK.

Okay. Well if we argue that cooking food is a by-product of evolution, then the potato can't be that bad ( although I no longer eat them myself ). We could then posit that agriculture is a by-product of evolution as well. Again, why meat should be cooked, from this perspective , is not too clear. So basically, and my interest is mainly in science, we can ascribe to either very little fat-high carbs or very little carbs- high fat philosophies. I personally, and you know this by now, practice the latter ( in a modified form ). I also try to cope with the world and its overwhelming array of chioce by simplification. Raw broccoli tastes good and apricots taste good , so therefore by expansion, all food should be eaten raw. I know that sounds like incredibly spartan logic, but it does make sense to me.

As far as reconciling vegan raw foodism from an evolutionary standpoint, I try. I suppose the biggest step towards this would be to resolve the elusive 'sources of B12' conundrum. Also, it remains unclear at what point early man began hunting animals, in the sense that he was not born with a tool in his hand, nor are there any polaroids of said man with his bare hands clutching a sabre tooth. My 0.02. Tell me what you think.

[Lisa N]

We could then posit that agriculture is a by-product of evolution as well.

Possibly, but along those lines of thinking, man has been eating meat, cooked or raw, far longer than he has been farming grains; millions of years vs. about 10,000 years. Evolutionarily speaking, 10,000 years is a mere blip on the radar screen and it's debatable whether or not this is enough time for humans to adapt to a grain based diet versus a meat/fat based one with a little gathering of vegetation (in season) thrown in. Humans can survive quite well idefinitely without carbohydrates, but they don't last very long (certainly not long enough to reproduce) without an adequate source of proteins and fats. Archaeology again has shown that as ancient cultures moved away from hunting/gathering and towards farming, the health of the people suffered (bones and teeth tell a great deal about the health of the deceased) and examinations of mummies from ancient Egypt tell a similar story; obesity, heart disease and dental caries, all in a culture that was eating a high grain diet.

Also, it remains unclear at what point early man began hunting animals, in the sense that he was not born with a tool in his hand, nor are there any polaroids of said man with his bare hands clutching a sabre tooth.

Granted, there are no photographs, but there are quite a few ancient cave drawings depicting hunting activities (the cave man version of photos) as well as other archaeological evidence that man has been hunting far longer than he has been farming and before that, he was likely scavanging for the protein and fat after predatory animals had eaten their fill, eating the brains and marrow that the predators couldn't get to (very high in fat!) by breaking the skulls and bones with rocks.

Okay. Well if we argue that cooking food is a by-product of evolution, then the potato can't be that bad ( although I no longer eat them myself ).

Potatoes have only been routinely eaten for about the past 400 years or so (if that long) and have been highly hybridized since they were first introduced.

[Wyvrn]

As far as reconciling vegan raw foodism from an evolutionary standpoint, I try. I suppose the biggest step towards this would be to resolve the elusive 'sources of B12' conundrum. Also, it remains unclear at what point early man began hunting animals, in the sense that he was not born with a tool in his hand, nor are there any polaroids of said man with his bare hands clutching a sabre tooth. My 0.02. Tell me what you think.
In a sense man was "born with a tool in his hand", or at least predisposed to a talent for tool-using. If the tool-using capabilities of modern primates such as gorillas and chimps are any indication, tool using could have begun far before the "early man" stage. I also believe that meat eating began with paleo-primates for a similar reason: modern primates consume animal food when they can get it. Insects are likely the most regular source, but chimps have been documented hunting and eating monkeys.

Here's a good link: http://beyondveg.com/

You might also want to check out the Paleo/Neanderthin board (http://forum.lowcarber.org/forumdisplay.php?f=107).

Wyv

[RCFletcher]

As far as reconciling vegan raw foodism from an evolutionary standpoint, I try. I suppose the biggest step towards this would be to resolve the elusive 'sources of B12' conundrum.

It is interesting that strict vegetarians who moved to Britain from India went down with B12 deficiency which they had never suffered from in India. When investigated it was found that the rice they were consuming in India had insect faeces and parts of insects in it which the many times washed British rice did not.


Okay. Well if we argue that cooking food is a by-product of evolution, then the potato can't be that bad ( although I no longer eat them myself ). We could then posit that agriculture is a by-product of evolution as well.

You could also argue that atomic bombs and genetic engineering are a by product of evolution using your train of thinking.

Hunter gatherers such as Australian aboriganies are quite fond of many types of insects and grubs - you don't need a weapon in your hand to collect them. Prehistoric peoples living in Scotland left middens (trash heaps) behind which were full of shellfish shells - you don't need a weapon to collect shellfish either. As commented earlier, primates much less evolved than we hunt and kill. I am at a loss to understand why you think humans ever at a vegetarian diet at any part of their evolution.

Potatoes cannot be eaten raw...therefore you don't eat them. There is nothing wrong with potatoes - I agree 100% - unless you are overweight and following a low carb plan to get your body back into a healtthier state. You comment that certain things are nice raw - great, meat is nicer cooked than raw.

By the way, I don't agree that that Nologo is a troll. He is obviously a low carb, high fibre, raw food vegan - and as a low carb comrade we should regard him as a comrade in our jouney to find the healthiest way of eating. He also puts a lot of thought into what he eats - as we do.

[JPaleo]

In prehistoric times meat was often eaten raw. Some people still eat meat raw. Check out the paleo board here, there's a whole thread about eating raw meat and the health benefits (as well as ways to avoid potential health dangers).

Also, I believe NoLogo is a female (at least based on her profile).

-J

[Dodger]

I've known people who liked to eat raw potatoes. It didn't seem to affect their health.

Potatoes were first cultivated about 7000 years ago. It was 400 years ago that Europeans started eating them.

[Lisa N]

I've known people who liked to eat raw potatoes. It didn't seem to affect their health.

Potatoes were first cultivated about 7000 years ago. It was 400 years ago that Europeans started eating them.


History of the potato:

http://www.indepthinfo.com/potato/history.shtml

They were eaten in certain regions of South America (although they looked very different from what they do now) as long as 7,000 years ago (still even less time than man has been involved in agriculture) and were not widely eaten until about the last 400 years. The leaves of the potato plant are toxic and the raw potato can be toxic if it is grown exposed to too much air and has a greenish tint to it.
The sweet potato is a tropical plant and so would not have been eaten by northern peoples until transportation made that possible. Raw, they are very tough and fibrous and, I imagine, rather difficult to chew. ;)

[RCFletcher]

I had two points in mind when I wrote that potatoes cannot be eaten raw.
One was the danger that they can be toxic if green as stated by Lisa N, the other is that the starch (which I presume is the reason people eat them) is not available if it is still contained within the cell membrane.

I used to eat raw chips (french fries) when I was a child (to my mother's horror) and they didn't harm me either.

[dina1957]

I knew folks who were addicted to raw pasta and cookie dough, and are still alive. ;) IMO, raw potatoes and grains are rather not palatable, however, rolled oats soaked overnight, can be make into a tasty breakfast. My DD friend eats all hot cereals half cooked to minimize carb absorbtion, may be eating raw potatoes works the same way.:rolleyes:

[dina1957]

From speaking to a vegan friend (yes, I have one) I understand the only real source of B12 available to vegans is yeast extract. (English products like marmite) maybe you should look into this.My vegan co-worker says that the only way to get B12 for her is via injections, this is what she does. She also takes ...27 pills and caps in supplements daily to make up for lost nutrients. :rolleyes:

[TVMichelle]

When I was a little girl, whenever my mother peeled potatoes, she and I always ate a little bit of raw potato with a little salt and we never got sick. (I also used to lick the beaters when she made cake batter and never got sick then, either. But I don't do that now, both because I no longer eat cake, but also because of the salmonella concerns about raw eggs.) Eating raw potato is very similar in taste to eating the broccoli or cauliflower stem (you have to pare away the woddy, fibrous outside to get to the "heart" of the stem).

Anyway, hearing about raw potatoes made me think of my late mother and how I miss her. Sorry to carry on so...

Michelle

[NoLogo]

It's just that tremendous insights into healthy diets can be gleaned from thinking about these sorts of things. Tomatoes and potatoes are part of the same family and lycopene is released from the tomato when cooked. Other foods are more nutritious when in their raw state.