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Gandolf Pa
Sun, Nov-28-04, 19:15
Review: Voight Stars As 'Tannhaeuser'

Fri Nov 19, 5:15 PM ET By RONALD BLUM, Associated Press Writer
NEW YORK - Deborah Voigt lost the weight and kept the voice

Since the controversy over London's Royal Opera cutting her
from a Strauss production last spring because she wouldn't fit
into a little black dress, the American soprano has dropped
about 80 pounds. Her slimmer physique did not alter the voice
that made her famous, and she gave a riveting performance in
the Metropolitan Opera (news - web sites)'s revival of
Wagner's "Tannhaeuser" that opened Thursday night.

Singing Elisabeth, a role she has performed rarely, Voigt
brought forth excitement, tenderness and steel. When the
assembled mob gathered around Tannhaeuser and condemned him to
damnation for enjoying the pleasures of Venus, her shimmering
B natural cry of "Haltet ein! (Stop!)" was spine-tingling.

There was much to enjoy at this strongly cast revival, the
first "Tannhaeuser" at the Met in seven seasons.

Tenor Peter Seiffert, making his Met debut, sang sweetly and
strongly in the title role. Baritone Thomas Hampson, in his
first Wagner part at the Met, was in outstanding voice as
Wolfram von Eschenbach and conveyed his conflict between
condemnation and camaraderie with unusual pathos, especially
in his third-act "Abendstern (Evening Star)" aria.

Michelle DeYoung looked sexy as Venus and sang with allure,
but there was room to amp up the vamp on the acting side.
Kwangshul Youn's dark bass as Hermann, the Landgrave of
Thuringia, conveyed authority and passion.

But the star of the show was Voigt.

Her only previous experience as Elisabeth was seven
performances at the San Francisco Opera in 1994 and a pair of
concerts in Cologne, Germany, two years later. At first she
was to have sung both Elisabeth and Venus in these
performances but the originally scheduled conductor, Christian
Thielemann, decided he wanted difference voices in the two
roles. The Met then signed DeYoung, but Thielemann withdrew
more than a year ago and was replaced by Mark Elder.

The minstrel Tannhaeuser, in Venus' mountain land of
Venusberg, wants to go back to earth and break from the
goddess, calling on the Virgin Mary to return him to home.
Venusberg disappears, he returns to a valley near the
Wartburg, Hermann and Wolfram recognize him and Wolfram
reminds his of Elisabeth, Hermann's niece.

In the hall of the minstrels in the Wartburg, Hermann holds a
song contest, with the winner to be married to Elisabeth. When
Tannhaeuser sings of passionate love and admits he was with
Venus, the locals are shocked, with women fleeing and knights
drawing their swords. Elisabeth stops them for attacking
Tannhaeuser and Hermann tells him to join a pilgrimage to Rome
to beg for forgiveness from the pope. Elisabeth, waiting his
return, dies of grief before the pope's staff sprouts green
leaves, signaling Tannhaeuser's redemption.

Voigt entered at the start of the second act, to un-Wagnerian
applause, for the great aria "Dich teure Halle (You dear
hall)," her voice firm and warm. What makes Voigt special is
that rare combination of Wagnerian heft in her voice and
ability to act and convey the deep emotions the composer
created in his characters.

Her added mobility improves her skills and should come in
handy — next season she is to sing in "Tosca" and "La Forza
del Destino" at the Met, and she's agreed to sing the
"Siegfried" and "Goetterdaemerung" Bruennhildes for the first
time in 2009, in a new production at the Vienna State Opera
and a revival at the Met.

Elder led a performance filled with detail, choosing slow
tempos for the early part of the overture. The Otto Schenk
production, with sets and productions by Guenther
Schneider-Siemssen, was the first of seven Wagner operas
prepared by the duo at the Met and features realistic sets
evincing medieval Germany. The lighting was dark much of the
time, especially in the final act.

Lady Veter
Sun, Nov-28-04, 19:15
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 28 Nov 2004 17:47:44 -0000,
gandolf@most.of.my.favorite.sites (Gandolf Parker) wrote:

>Review: Voight Stars As 'Tannhaeuser'
>

So the message is that people who conform to society wants
will be rewarded.

Only an idiot would think of that as a good thing.

I would have a lot more respect for her if she lost weight
because she wanted to. You can be pretty sure that she will
gain it back.

Poor fool.

LV

Lady Veteran
- -----------------------------------
"I rode a tank and held a general's rank when the blitzkrieg
raged and the bodies stank..."
- -Rolling Stones, Sympathy for the Devil
- ------------------------------------------------
People who hide behind anonymous remailers and ridicule fat
people are cowardly idiots with no motive but malice.
- ---------------------------------------------
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind
don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

- --Unknown
- -------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0 - not licensed
for commercial use: www.pgp.com

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Luna
Sun, Nov-28-04, 19:15
In article <pobkq0dulblrf5qkqtdo48b6tv9pd10r5n@4ax.com>, Lady
Veteran <armyvet@bigfoot.com> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
>
> On 28 Nov 2004 17:47:44 -0000,
> gandolf@most.of.my.favorite.sites (Gandolf Parker) wrote:
>
> >Review: Voight Stars As 'Tannhaeuser'
> >
>
> So the message is that people who conform to society wants
> will be rewarded.
>
> Only an idiot would think of that as a good thing.
>

I conform to what society wants by driving on the correct side
of the road, wearing clothes, and not killing people. So far
I've been rewarded quite nicely by not going to jail. Man, I
must be quite an idiot.

She's a performer. If you want a certain part, you have to
look a certain way. I'm sure plenty of people are turned down
for roles for being too thin too.

--
Michelle Levin http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick

I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only
have 3 flaws.

Lady Veter
Sun, Nov-28-04, 19:15
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:18:19 GMT, Luna
<lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote:

>In article <pobkq0dulblrf5qkqtdo48b6tv9pd10r5n@4ax.com>, Lady
>Veteran <armyvet@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On 28 Nov 2004 17:47:44 -0000,
>> gandolf@most.of.my.favorite.sites (Gandolf Parker) wrote:
>>
>> >Review: Voight Stars As 'Tannhaeuser'
>> >
>>
>> So the message is that people who conform to society wants
>> will be rewarded.
>>
>> Only an idiot would think of that as a good thing.
>>
>
>I conform to what society wants by driving on the correct
>side of the road, wearing clothes, and not killing people. So
>far I've been rewarded quite nicely by not going to jail.
>Man, I must be quite an idiot.

You know damn well that is not what I am talking about. I am
talking about her appearance.
>
>She's a performer. If you want a certain part, you have to
>look a certain way. I'm sure plenty of people are turned down
>for roles for being too thin too.

Maybe. If she lost weight for her own reasons-good for her.
Otherwise chances are good that he little black dress will be
given away in a few months.

LV

Lady Veteran
- -----------------------------------
"I rode a tank and held a general's rank when the blitzkrieg
raged and the bodies stank..."
- -Rolling Stones, Sympathy for the Devil
- ------------------------------------------------
People who hide behind anonymous remailers and ridicule fat
people are cowardly idiots with no motive but malice.
- ---------------------------------------------
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind
don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

- --Unknown
- -------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0 - not licensed
for commercial use: www.pgp.com

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Garyg
Mon, Nov-29-04, 19:15
"Lady Veteran" <armyvet@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:pobkq0dulblrf5qkqtdo48b6tv9pd10r5n@4ax.com...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
>
> On 28 Nov 2004 17:47:44 -0000,
> gandolf@most.of.my.favorite.sites (Gandolf Parker) wrote:
>
> >Review: Voight Stars As 'Tannhaeuser'
> >
>
> So the message is that people who conform to society wants
> will be rewarded.
>
> Only an idiot would think of that as a good thing.

You seem to be in denial about some of the basic facts of
human nature.

For instance, if I showed up for a job interview in my pajamas
(because I'm more comfortable in my pj's and normally work
while so clothed), I would not be surprised if I was rejected
for the job. If I showed up in a suit and tie (even though I
rarely wear a suite and tie), I don't think that would make me
an idiot. Quite the opposite, I'd be an idiot to not
"conform", assuming my intent was to get a job.

Conforming to the desires of the majority is, and always has
been, a reasonably effective strategy for getting ahead in
life. In this case, Voight is probably also now healthier for
her having lost the excess weight she was carrying around, so
it sounds like a win-win from my perspective.

>
> I would have a lot more respect for her if she lost weight
> because she wanted to. You can be pretty sure that she will
> gain it back.

Do you know her personally? If not, how can you comment on
what motivated her?

>
> Poor fool.

I suspect your irritation and name-calling are caused less by
the fact that she "conformed" as by the fact that she
successfully lost the weight (often times, the things that
irritate us the most in others, are those things that we don't
feel good about within ourselves).

GG

>
> LV
>
>
> Lady Veteran
> - -----------------------------------
> "I rode a tank and held a general's rank when the blitzkrieg
> raged and the bodies stank..."
> - -Rolling Stones, Sympathy for the Devil
> - ------------------------------------------------
> People who hide behind anonymous remailers and ridicule fat
> people are cowardly idiots with no motive but malice.
> - ---------------------------------------------
> "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind
> don't matter and those who matter don't mind."
>
> - --Unknown
> - -------------------------------
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0 - not
> licensed for commercial use: www.pgp.com
>
> iQA/AwUBQaovmsjazA1WMM1JEQKJtgCfaCmUsDqP5HEsb8u5xRPLOPawVd4-
> AoL2c b3MBF/A8JZ/rbzV6TBE0x0nj =PuXA -----END PGP
> SIGNATURE-----

Sam
Mon, Nov-29-04, 19:15
Luna <lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote in message news:<-
lunachick-9C83C7.16172828112004@news1.east.earthlink.net>...
> In article <pobkq0dulblrf5qkqtdo48b6tv9pd10r5n@4ax.com>,
> Lady Veteran <armyvet@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
> >
> > On 28 Nov 2004 17:47:44 -0000,
> > gandolf@most.of.my.favorite.sites (Gandolf Parker) wrote:
> >
> > >Review: Voight Stars As 'Tannhaeuser'
> > >
> >
> > So the message is that people who conform to society wants
> > will be rewarded.
> >
> > Only an idiot would think of that as a good thing.
> >
>
> I conform to what society wants by driving on the correct
> side of the road, wearing clothes, and not killing people.
> So far I've been rewarded quite nicely by not going to jail.
> Man, I must be quite an idiot.
>
> She's a performer. If you want a certain part, you have to
> look a certain way. I'm sure plenty of people are turned
> down for roles for being too thin too.

The difference is - this is OPERA! Opera singers are supposed
to be cast strictly on the sound of their voice and not on how
they look. Hence, you had Pavarotti playing youthful, dashing,
romantic leads in his 60's. You had Leontyne Price - a large
black woman - playing Cio-Cio-San, a 16 year-old Japanese
girl, in Madama Butterfly. This is what caused all the
controversy over Voigt's firing and has caused a great deal of
angst in the opera world in the past several years about the
whole future of opera.

There are the bean-counting managers who think that the only
way to get young people - raised on movies and MTV - into the
opera house is to have young, thin, glamorous singers,
regardless of whether or not they have the pipes for the job.
(The thing that makes opera so special among all other forms
of vocal entertainment is that there are NO MICROPHONES. It
takes a very special person to rise above a large orchestra
and fill a large auditorium with nothing else but his or her
highly-trained voice.) There are the directors, often imported
from the theater or movies for their commercial marketability,
who have no real understanding what opera is all about. It was
the director who fired Voigt because she wouldn't fit into the
little black dress that was his "concept" for Adriana auf
Naxos - that had nothing to do at all with the meaning of
Strauss' opera, and even though Voigt has a fantastic voice
and this is one of her signature roles that she has performed
many times in some of the world's best opera houses, including
the Met in NYC.

It is indeed a sad state of affairs if society's obsession
with thinness invades the opera world - one of the last places
where size never mattered. If opera singers are to be cast on
how they look, something immeasurable will be lost to an art
form that has existed for over 400 years, because many of the
world's most glorious voices do not reside in thin bodies.

Nancy C Ke
Mon, Nov-29-04, 19:15
Once upon a time, "serious" singers could get away with
massive proportions because of the rarity of their talent and
because the opera and vocal-concert scene was fairly elitist.
No longer so. It has ALWAYS been show-business as well as
serious art, but, with the larger public exposure, then the
demands of the public are different. Granted, you still need
the instrument, but gone are the days when an audience was
unquestionably accepting of the idea that a 300 pound "Aida"
was worth being buried alive over. An artist makes their
living entertaining. I have as much respect for the voice and
artistry as anybody else, and would probably be a lot more
accepting of the 300-pound Aida than some of the public, being
an opera junkie sincd the age of 6, but people are paying to
see you perform, and you owe them your best at all times. So I
have nothing but huge respect for this singer!

On 11/29/04 2:11 PM, in article LrLqd.8413$sY5.6304@fe06.lga,
"GaryG" <sorrynoemail@NOSPAMX.com> wrote:

> "Lady Veteran" <armyvet@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:pobkq0dulblrf5qkqtdo48b6tv9pd10r5n@4ax.com...
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On 28 Nov 2004 17:47:44 -0000,
>> gandolf@most.of.my.favorite.sites (Gandolf Parker) wrote:
>>
>>> Review: Voight Stars As 'Tannhaeuser'
>>>
>>
>> So the message is that people who conform to society wants
>> will be rewarded.
>>
>> Only an idiot would think of that as a good thing.
>
> You seem to be in denial about some of the basic facts of
> human nature.
>
> For instance, if I showed up for a job interview in my
> pajamas (because I'm more comfortable in my pj's and
> normally work while so clothed), I would not be surprised if
> I was rejected for the job. If I showed up in a suit and tie
> (even though I rarely wear a suite and tie), I don't think
> that would make me an idiot. Quite the opposite, I'd be an
> idiot to not "conform", assuming my intent was to get a job.

Luna
Mon, Nov-29-04, 19:15
In article <23638f90.0411290901.29520b85@posting.google.com>,
Bfinsness@comcast.net (sam) wrote:

> Luna <lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:<lunachick-9C83C7.16172828112004@news1.east.earthli-
> nk.net>...
> > In article <pobkq0dulblrf5qkqtdo48b6tv9pd10r5n@4ax.com>,
> > Lady Veteran <armyvet@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
> > >
> > > On 28 Nov 2004 17:47:44 -0000,
> > > gandolf@most.of.my.favorite.sites (Gandolf Parker)
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >Review: Voight Stars As 'Tannhaeuser'
> > > >
> > >
> > > So the message is that people who conform to society
> > > wants will be rewarded.
> > >
> > > Only an idiot would think of that as a good thing.
> > >
> >
> > I conform to what society wants by driving on the correct
> > side of the road, wearing clothes, and not killing people.
> > So far I've been rewarded quite nicely by not going to
> > jail. Man, I must be quite an idiot.
> >
> > She's a performer. If you want a certain part, you have to
> > look a certain way. I'm sure plenty of people are turned
> > down for roles for being too thin too.
>
> The difference is - this is OPERA! Opera singers are
> supposed to be cast strictly on the sound of their voice and
> not on how they look. Hence, you had Pavarotti playing
> youthful, dashing, romantic leads in his 60's. You had
> Leontyne Price - a large black woman - playing Cio-Cio-San,
> a 16 year-old Japanese girl, in Madama Butterfly. This is
> what caused all the controversy over Voigt's firing and has
> caused a great deal of angst in the opera world in the past
> several years about the whole future of opera.
>
> There are the bean-counting managers who think that the only
> way to get young people - raised on movies and MTV - into
> the opera house is to have young, thin, glamorous singers,
> regardless of whether or not they have the pipes for the
> job. (The thing that makes opera so special among all other
> forms of vocal entertainment is that there are NO
> MICROPHONES. It takes a very special person to rise above a
> large orchestra and fill a large auditorium with nothing
> else but his or her highly-trained voice.) There are the
> directors, often imported from the theater or movies for
> their commercial marketability, who have no real
> understanding what opera is all about. It was the director
> who fired Voigt because she wouldn't fit into the little
> black dress that was his "concept" for Adriana auf Naxos -
> that had nothing to do at all with the meaning of Strauss'
> opera, and even though Voigt has a fantastic voice and this
> is one of her signature roles that she has performed many
> times in some of the world's best opera houses, including
> the Met in NYC.
>
> It is indeed a sad state of affairs if society's obsession
> with thinness invades the opera world - one of the last
> places where size never mattered. If opera singers are to be
> cast on how they look, something immeasurable will be lost
> to an art form that has existed for over 400 years, because
> many of the world's most glorious voices do not reside in
> thin bodies.

I get the point you're trying to make, I really do. But we
have to face facts that opera, along with all forms of art,
can and will evolve. It used to be a lot easier to be an ugly
pop musician, for instance, before MTV. Before talkies, film
stars could have the most grating, nasal, annoying voice in
the world and still be a success. In the 50's, curvaceous
female bodies were in style, in the 70's it was the "Twiggy"
look, currently thin but athletic seems to be the most
popular. If you are a film actor you don't have to be thin or
athletic to be a success, but you may have to be thin or
athletic to be considered for certain roles. Opera has the
option of giving people what they want (performers who can
sing _and_ look the part) or sticking with tradition and
losing so much money that no one does opera any more.

--
Michelle Levin http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick

I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only
have 3 flaws.

Sam
Tue, Nov-30-04, 06:15
Luna <lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote in message news:<-
lunachick-DBF2C6.13415229112004@news1.east.earthlink.net>...
> In article
> <23638f90.0411290901.29520b85@posting.google.com>,
> Bfinsness@comcast.net (sam) wrote:
>
> > Luna <lunachick@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote in message ne-
> > ws:<lunachick-9C83C7.16172828112004@news1.east.earthlink.-
> > net>...
> > > In article <pobkq0dulblrf5qkqtdo48b6tv9pd10r5n@4ax.com>,
> > > Lady Veteran <armyvet@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
> > > >
> > > > On 28 Nov 2004 17:47:44 -0000,
> > > > gandolf@most.of.my.favorite.sites (Gandolf Parker)
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Review: Voight Stars As 'Tannhaeuser'
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > So the message is that people who conform to society
> > > > wants will be rewarded.
> > > >
> > > > Only an idiot would think of that as a good thing.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I conform to what society wants by driving on the
> > > correct side of the road, wearing clothes, and not
> > > killing people. So far I've been rewarded quite nicely
> > > by not going to jail. Man, I must be quite an idiot.
> > >
> > > She's a performer. If you want a certain part, you have
> > > to look a certain way. I'm sure plenty of people are
> > > turned down for roles for being too thin too.
> >
> > The difference is - this is OPERA! Opera singers are
> > supposed to be cast strictly on the sound of their voice
> > and not on how they look. Hence, you had Pavarotti playing
> > youthful, dashing, romantic leads in his 60's. You had
> > Leontyne Price - a large black woman - playing
> > Cio-Cio-San, a 16 year-old Japanese girl, in Madama
> > Butterfly. This is what caused all the controversy over
> > Voigt's firing and has caused a great deal of angst in the
> > opera world in the past several years about the whole
> > future of opera.
> >
> > There are the bean-counting managers who think that the
> > only way to get young people - raised on movies and MTV -
> > into the opera house is to have young, thin, glamorous
> > singers, regardless of whether or not they have the pipes
> > for the job. (The thing that makes opera so special among
> > all other forms of vocal entertainment is that there are
> > NO MICROPHONES. It takes a very special person to rise
> > above a large orchestra and fill a large auditorium with
> > nothing else but his or her highly-trained voice.) There
> > are the directors, often imported from the theater or
> > movies for their commercial marketability, who have no
> > real understanding what opera is all about. It was the
> > director who fired Voigt because she wouldn't fit into the
> > little black dress that was his "concept" for Adriana auf
> > Naxos - that had nothing to do at all with the meaning of
> > Strauss' opera, and even though Voigt has a fantastic
> > voice and this is one of her signature roles that she has
> > performed many times in some of the world's best opera
> > houses, including the Met in NYC.
> >
> > It is indeed a sad state of affairs if society's obsession
> > with thinness invades the opera world - one of the last
> > places where size never mattered. If opera singers are to
> > be cast on how they look, something immeasurable will be
> > lost to an art form that has existed for over 400 years,
> > because many of the world's most glorious voices do not
> > reside in thin bodies.
>
> I get the point you're trying to make, I really do. But we
> have to face facts that opera, along with all forms of art,
> can and will evolve. It used to be a lot easier to be an
> ugly pop musician, for instance, before MTV. Before talkies,
> film stars could have the most grating, nasal, annoying
> voice in the world and still be a success. In the 50's,
> curvaceous female bodies were in style, in the 70's it was
> the "Twiggy" look, currently thin but athletic seems to be
> the most popular. If you are a film actor you don't have to
> be thin or athletic to be a success, but you may have to be
> thin or athletic to be considered for certain roles. Opera
> has the option of giving people what they want (performers
> who can sing _and_ look the part) or sticking with tradition
> and losing so much money that no one does opera any more.

I am a lurker here and I know that you are a regular poster,
so I don't want to offend you, but it is obvious that you are
not an opera lover. The whole thing is the voice - not whether
people are fat, thin or in-between. In opera it is only the
voice that counts, not the looks. And that it how it should
be, I think, because that includes not only weight, but racial
and ethnic backrounds as well. If you are telling me someone
is too fat to play a role, then you can also say they are also
not the right ethnic or racial backround to play a role, and I
think that is just plain wrong. True opera lovers suspend
their disbelief and accept fat people as ardent lovers, or
black or Asian people as Italians, and that is as just as it
should be. Go to the opera sometime and then get back to me
with your opinions.

Nancy C Ke
Tue, Nov-30-04, 06:15
On 11/29/04 6:37 PM, in article
23638f90.0411291637.356b12b8@posting.google.com, "sam"
<Bfinsness@comcast.net> wrote:

>> It is indeed a sad state of affairs if society's
>> obsession with
>>> thinness invades the opera world - one of the last places
>>> where size never mattered. If opera singers are to be cast
>>> on how they look, something immeasurable will be lost to
>>> an art form that has existed for over 400 years, because
>>> many of the world's most glorious voices do not reside in
>>> thin bodies

> I am a lurker here and I know that you are a regular poster,
> so I don't want to offend you, but it is obvious that you
> are not an opera lover. The whole thing is the voice - not
> whether people are fat, thin or in-between. In opera it is
> only the voice that counts, not the looks. And that it how
> it should be, I think, because that includes not only
> weight, but racial and ethnic backrounds as well. If you are
> telling me someone is too fat to play a role, then you can
> also say they are also not the right ethnic or racial
> backround to play a role, and I think that is just plain
> wrong. True opera lovers suspend their disbelief and accept
> fat people as ardent lovers, or black or Asian people as
> Italians, and that is as just as it should be. Go to the
> opera sometime and then get back to me with your opinions.

Sorry, opera IS show business and it's theatre. I am a
"recovering" music major and an opera junkie from a tender age
- and who puts in some travel miles to catch something special
and spent my student years happily almost living in the
standee section of the Met. If you have respect for your art
and your audience, you give the best you have on all fronts,
including your appearance. To place opera outside that realm
is to stick it back into it's "elitist" and "stuffy"
characterization. Give me a break, it was meant to be
entertainment as well as art. As far as "voices" is
concerned...from a public willing to accept the label of
"great" for such mediochre talents as Bocelli and
self-indulgent has-beens like Luciano Pavarotti (who was at
his best 25 years ago and has been on the downslide ever
since), I find it not surprising that there is this naïve
attitude that it's ok for Salome, who is supposed to be the
ultimate seductress, to NOT look the part as long as she hits
the notes. That's why there are "concert" performances of
operas. There are plenty of reasonably-built sopranos,(and
contraltos, and tenors and basses etc) around these days with
equally remarkable instruments, so who would you rather go see
- Dmitri Hvorostovsky or "Lucy"? ( Frankly, I went all the way
to London recently to catch Hvorostovsky, he's that good! I
wouldn't cross the street for the Pav, and it ain't his
physique.) There are also a lot of gorgeous voices who are
absolute STICKS on stage. I never saw Deitrich Fischer-Dieskau
in opera, but I understand he couldn't act his way from one
side of the stage to the other...however, on recordings, he's
phenomenal, and as a Lieder singer he had few peers. For once,
though, opera casting is in the midst of an overflow of
wonderful voices and excellent performers along with it, and
the competition can be a little stiffer for the plum roles. It
wasn't always that way. Plus, with the blossoming of regional
opera, the medium is available to a wider audience than
before, more young singers are getting a chance to be heard,
and audiences are becoming more demanding and I say
"Bravissimo!" Now, if you really want to start some blood
flowing, get thee over to rec.music.opera and have some real
fun... We have these passionate fights over there all the
time, complete with name-calling, death threats etc. Great
fun. All's fair in the opera-junkie world! Then there's
Florence Foster Jenkins..... Anyway, it IS naïve to assume
that because it's "culture" then different standards apply.
It's show-business.

Luna
Tue, Nov-30-04, 06:15
In article <23638f90.0411291637.356b12b8@posting.google.com>,
Bfinsness@comcast.net (sam) wrote:

> I am a lurker here and I know that you are a regular poster,
> so I don't want to offend you, but it is obvious that you
> are not an opera lover. The whole thing is the voice - not
> whether people are fat, thin or in-between. In opera it is
> only the voice that counts, not the looks. And that it how
> it should be, I think, because that includes not only
> weight, but racial and ethnic backrounds as well. If you are
> telling me someone is too fat to play a role, then you can
> also say they are also not the right ethnic or racial
> backround to play a role, and I think that is just plain
> wrong. True opera lovers suspend their disbelief and accept
> fat people as ardent lovers, or black or Asian people as
> Italians, and that is as just as it should be. Go to the
> opera sometime and then get back to me with your opinions.

So you're saying that if a director chooses to cast based
partly on looks, then it is not opera? I'm not completely
ignorant about opera, and I know that what you are describing
is how opera is traditionally done, but that does not mean
that every production will have the same aesthetic. Opera is
evolving, and some directors are starting to care more about
realism, in some productions. You're a purist, and that's
fine. You can run your opera company any way you want to, but
don't think that your views are universal and immutable.

--
Michelle Levin http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick

I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only
have 3 flaws.

Rachael Re
Tue, Nov-30-04, 06:15
"Nancy C Kenfield" <tremont600@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:BDD13F32.5C1%tremont600@bellsouth.net...
> On 11/29/04 6:37 PM, in article
> 23638f90.0411291637.356b12b8@posting.google.com, "sam"
> <Bfinsness@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>> It is indeed a sad state of affairs if society's
>>> obsession with
>>>> thinness invades the opera world - one of the last places
>>>> where size never mattered. If opera singers are to be
>>>> cast on how they look, something immeasurable will be
>>>> lost to an art form that has existed for over 400 years,
>>>> because many of the world's most glorious voices do not
>>>> reside in thin bodies
>
>> I am a lurker here and I know that you are a regular
>> poster, so I don't want to offend you, but it is obvious
>> that you are not an opera lover. The whole thing is the
>> voice - not whether people are fat, thin or in-between. In
>> opera it is only the voice that counts, not the looks. And
>> that it how it should be, I think, because that includes
>> not only weight, but racial and ethnic backrounds as well.
>> If you are telling me someone is too fat to play a role,
>> then you can also say they are also not the right ethnic or
>> racial backround to play a role, and I think that is just
>> plain wrong. True opera lovers suspend their disbelief and
>> accept fat people as ardent lovers, or black or Asian
>> people as Italians, and that is as just as it should be. Go
>> to the opera sometime and then get back to me with your
>> opinions.
>
> Sorry, opera IS show business and it's theatre. I am a
> "recovering" music major and an opera junkie from a tender
> age - and who puts in some travel miles to catch something
> special and spent my student years happily almost living in
> the standee section of the Met. If you have respect for your
> art and your audience, you give the best you have on all
> fronts, including your appearance. To place opera outside
> that realm is to stick it back into it's "elitist" and
> "stuffy" characterization. Give me a break, it was meant to
> be entertainment as well as art. As far as "voices" is
> concerned...from a public willing to accept the label of
> "great" for such mediochre talents as Bocelli and
> self-indulgent has-beens like Luciano Pavarotti (who was at
> his best 25 years ago and has been on the downslide ever
> since), I find it not surprising that there is this naïve
> attitude that it's ok for Salome, who is supposed to be the
> ultimate seductress, to NOT look the part as long as she
> hits the notes. That's why there are "concert" performances
> of operas. There are plenty of reasonably-built
> sopranos,(and contraltos, and tenors and basses etc) around
> these days with equally remarkable instruments, so who would
> you rather go see - Dmitri Hvorostovsky or "Lucy"? (
> Frankly, I went all the way to London recently to catch
> Hvorostovsky, he's that good! I wouldn't cross the street
> for the Pav, and it ain't his physique.) There are also a
> lot of gorgeous voices who are absolute STICKS on stage. I
> never saw Deitrich Fischer-Dieskau in opera, but I
> understand he couldn't act his way from one side of the
> stage to the other...however, on recordings, he's
> phenomenal, and as a Lieder singer he had few peers. For
> once, though, opera casting is in the midst of an overflow
> of wonderful voices and excellent performers along with it,
> and the competition can be a little stiffer for the plum
> roles. It wasn't always that way. Plus, with the blossoming
> of regional opera, the medium is available to a wider
> audience than before, more young singers are getting a
> chance to be heard, and audiences are becoming more
> demanding and I say "Bravissimo!" Now, if you really want to
> start some blood flowing, get thee over to rec.music.opera
> and have some real fun... We have these passionate fights
> over there all the time, complete with name-calling, death
> threats etc. Great fun. All's fair in the opera-junkie
> world! Then there's Florence Foster Jenkins..... Anyway, it
> IS naïve to assume that because it's "culture" then
> different standards apply. It's show-business.

I agree, it can't just be about the voice. It's about the
production, the acting, the orchestra etc etc, everything
works together to make a great whole - the complete art that
opera was originally created to be. The believability of a
performer in their role is part of that.

Rachael

Sam
Wed, Dec-01-04, 06:15
Nancy C Kenfield <tremont600@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:<BDD1026F.5A6%tremont600@bellsouth.net>...
> Once upon a time, "serious" singers could get away with
> massive proportions because of the rarity of their talent
> and because the opera and vocal-concert scene was fairly
> elitist. No longer so. It has ALWAYS been show-business as
> well as serious art, but, with the larger public exposure,
> then the demands of the public are different. Granted, you
> still need the instrument, but gone are the days when an
> audience was unquestionably accepting of the idea that a 300
> pound "Aida" was worth being buried alive over.

I find this amusing. So, someone can't believe that anyone
would be buried alive over a 300-pound Aida, but then would
believe that Aida and Radames would spend their precious
remaining oxygen singing, and oh by the way, there's a whole
orchestra stuffed in there with them to accompany them as they
sing themselves to death. My point being - opera is inherently
unrealistic and artificial. If one is so literally minded that
one can't accept a singer who might not "look the part" then
how can one accept the whole crazy premise of opera in the
first place?

An artist makes their living entertaining. I have as
much respect
> for the voice and artistry as anybody else, and would
> probably be a lot more accepting of the 300-pound Aida than
> some of the public, being an opera junkie sincd the age of
> 6, but people are paying to see you perform, and you owe
> them your best at all times. So I have nothing but huge
> respect for this singer!
>
>
>
>

Nancy C Ke
Wed, Dec-01-04, 06:15
As a last word - please stop cross-posting and take this
thread over to rec.music.opera where it would be better
discussed.

Deborah Vo
Wed, Dec-01-04, 06:15
Nancy C Kenfield <tremont600@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:BDD2A22E.7C6% tremont600@bellsouth.net:

> As a last word - please stop cross-posting and take this
> thread over to rec.music.opera where it would be better
> discussed.

Thanks for the idea to add an extra newsgroup. Much obliged.

Sam
Wed, Dec-01-04, 06:15
Nancy C Kenfield <tremont600@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:<BDD13F32.5C1%tremont600@bellsouth.net>...
>
> Sorry, opera IS show business and it's theatre. I am a
> "recovering" music major and an opera junkie from a tender
> age - and who puts in some travel miles to catch something
> special and spent my student years happily almost living in
> the standee section of the Met. If you have respect for your
> art and your audience, you give the best you have on all
> fronts, including your appearance. To place opera outside
> that realm is to stick it back into it's "elitist" and
> "stuffy" characterization. Give me a break, it was meant to
> be entertainment as well as art.

I don't really get the logical progression here. Exactly why
is it that if fat people with great voices are allowed to be
in opera, this makes opera "elitist" and "stuffy"? I have
certainly never felt that opera is elitist and I have dragged
many people to operas over the years and made converts of them
precisely by showing them that it is entertainment - and
fantastic rip-snortin' entertainment at that, even if the fat
lady sings. And if you are overweight, you don't have respect
for your art or your audience? What is that all about? Heck,
by current societal standards, Renee Fleming is overweight.
She has no respect for her art or her audience because she is
not a size 2 or 4 or even a 6?

> As far as "voices" is concerned...from a public willing to
> accept the label of "great" for such mediochre talents as
> Bocelli and self-indulgent has-beens like Luciano Pavarotti
> (who was at his best 25 years ago and has been on the
> downslide ever since), I find it not surprising that there
> is this naïve attitude that it's ok for Salome, who is
> supposed to be the ultimate seductress, to NOT look the part
> as long as she hits the notes. That's why there are
> "concert" performances of operas. There are plenty of
> reasonably-built sopranos,(and contraltos, and tenors and
> basses etc) around these days with equally remarkable
> instruments, so who would you rather go see - Dmitri
> Hvorostovsky or "Lucy"?

I have seen Hvorostovsky many, many times and yes, he is
gorgeous to look at and usually sounds gorgeous too. By no
means all the time, but on some occasions - as Valentin, the
elder Germont, Don Giovanni, Rodrigo and Prince Yeletsky come
to mind - he was very audibly gasping for breath between
phrases. To me, this detracts from the performance no matter
how gorgeous he looks. I also thought he was incredibly stiff
as the elder Germont in Chicago, but concluded that perhaps
this was his idea of being an older man, which was not at all
convincing. But I would never in a million years say that
because he wasn't believable he should stick to recitals and
recordings.

( Frankly, I went all the way to London
> recently to catch Hvorostovsky, he's that good! I wouldn't
> cross the street for the Pav, and it ain't his physique.)

Duh, well of course the Pav is way past his prime, no argument
there. But the first time I saw the Pav was in 1974 and, guess
what, he was huge then. By your standards if he was starting
out today, he would not be allowed to have an opera career and
could only stick to concert operas and recitals. I think many
of the people who were thrilled by him in his prime might feel
that a lot would have been lost had he not been allowed to do
staged opera (such as the high C's in La Fille du Regiment,
how exciting was that), even if he was huge and couldn't act
his way out of a paper bag.

There are also a lot of gorgeous
> voices who are absolute STICKS on stage. I never saw
> Deitrich Fischer-Dieskau in opera, but I understand he
> couldn't act his way from one side of the stage to the
> other...however, on recordings, he's phenomenal, and as a
> Lieder singer he had few peers. For once, though, opera
> casting is in the midst of an overflow of wonderful voices
> and excellent performers along with it, and the competition
> can be a little stiffer for the plum roles. It wasn't always
> that way. Plus, with the blossoming of regional opera, the
> medium is available to a wider audience than before, more
> young singers are getting a chance to be heard, and
> audiences are becoming more demanding and I say
> "Bravissimo!" Now, if you really want to start some blood
> flowing, get thee over to rec.music.opera and have some real
> fun... We have these passionate fights over there all the
> time, complete with name-calling, death threats etc. Great
> fun. All's fair in the opera-junkie world! Then there's
> Florence Foster Jenkins..... Anyway, it IS naïve to assume
> that because it's "culture" then different standards apply.
> It's show-business.

I never said anywhere that because it is "culture" that
different standards apply. I don't believe it is "culture" and
I would never call it that. That is just an assumption you
made. I agree that it is show business.

You'd think I'd said that ONLY fat people can be in opera. I
have nothing at all against thin, good-looking singers and
like them as much as the next person. Teddy Tahu Rhodes was a
fantastic-looking extremely hunky Stanley Kowalski with a
great voice that I enjoyed enormously. But then, I also
enjoyed Tony Griffey's Mitch very much, even if he wasn't so
heavenly to look at. A moving performance on his part.

I mentioned this before and I see no one has commented - I
firmly believe that casting fat people and casting different
racial and ethnic backgrounds is the same thing. If it's ok to
say that a fat person can't be believable in the role and
shouldn't play it, is it also ok to say that a Chinese person
can't be Rigoletto because he wouldn't be believable? There
are many, many examples - such as I once saw a Simon
Boccanegra where Amelia was white, her father Simon was black
and her grandfather Fiesco was Korean. Was this believable? Or
is it believable because none of them were fat? After all, the
same modern audiences that aren't used to seeing fat people as
romantic leads are also not used to seeing black people play
white people and vice versa. Should only black sopranos play
Aida, Chinese sopranos play Turandot, Japanese sopranos (who
are 16 no less) play Cio-Cio-San? It would be so much more
BELIEVABLE, wouldn't it?

Denyce Graves recently said in an interview that a European
director refused to hire her as Dorabella because it would not
be believable that she could be a sister to a white
Fiordiligi. I think that is just plain wrong. But there is
that word - "believable." Is it ok to discriminate against
singers of color too? Or is it only ok to discriminate against
fat people? Yes, I know the response to this - a
black/Asian/Hispanic/whatever singer can't do anything about
being black/Asian/Hispanic/whatever but a fat singer can do
something about being fat. Yeah, right, that is why there is a
low carb support group, because we all know how REALLY, REALLY
EASY it is to lose weight. Voigt had the surgery and Ben
Heppner fretted himself into being sick and cancelled many
performances while losing weight a few years back. I haven't
even seen him recently to know if he's kept it off.

I did see an interview with Anna Netrebko recently and she
said that what happened to Voigt was outrageous. Nice to see
that one of Voigt's thin colleagues is sympathetic and
supportive.

Lady Veter
Sat, Dec-04-04, 06:15
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 1 Dec 2004 04:56:18 GMT, "Deborah Voigt's Stretch Marks"
<dvoigt@fat.albert> wrote:

>Nancy C Kenfield <tremont600@bellsouth.net> wrote in
>news:BDD2A22E.7C6% tremont600@bellsouth.net:
>
>> As a last word - please stop cross-posting and take this
>> thread over to rec.music.opera where it would be better
>> discussed.
>
>Thanks for the idea to add an extra newsgroup. Much obliged.

Yep you even have the brains of a stretch mark.

LV

Lady Veteran
- -----------------------------------
"I rode a tank and held a general's rank when the blitzkrieg
raged and the bodies stank..."
- -Rolling Stones, Sympathy for the Devil
- ------------------------------------------------
People who hide behind anonymous remailers and ridicule fat
people are cowardly idiots with no motive but malice.
- ---------------------------------------------
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind
don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

- --Unknown
- -------------------------------

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Mick Tully
Fri, Dec-31-04, 19:16
You can be pretty sure that she will gain it back.

Is *that* what Winston Churchill meant by "Two nations divided
by a common language"?

What incrediblly ignorant grammar!

I'm sure that Jenny, his beautiful American mother, would not
have been over-impressed either...