If paleo diet is the way to go, what about out teeth ?

[Healthman]

Hi,

I learned about the paleo diet just yesterday and spend a few hours reading up on this topic. Up until yesterday I have followed Dr. Schnitzers diet which says that whole grain products, uncooked vegetables, berries, nuts and mineral water was the way to go. He argues that we don't have the teeth of a carnivore.

Since our teeth are not made to tear flesh apart humans are not meat eaters and therefore should restrain form eating meat.

Could anybody please comment on this ?
Thank you very much.

[TheCaveman]

Since our teeth are not made to tear flesh apart humans are not meat eaters and therefore should restrain form eating meat.

People tear flesh apart all the time. Perhaps his point was that people don't use their teeth to catch and kill animals, the same way carnivores don't use tools to catch and kill animals.

[Dodger]

Hi,

I learned about the paleo diet just yesterday and spend a few hours reading up on this topic. Up until yesterday I have followed Dr. Schnitzers diet which says that whole grain products, uncooked vegetables, berries, nuts and mineral water was the way to go. He argues that we don't have the teeth of a carnivore.

Since our teeth are not made to tear flesh apart humans are not meat eaters and therefore should restrain form eating meat.

Could anybody please comment on this ?
Thank you very much.
Well, to start with we are omnivores, so of course we don't have the teeth of a carnivore. We also don't have the teeth of a herbivore either. By that logic, we shouldn't eat anything that has to be chewed, which eliminates the whole grain products, uncooked vegetables, berries, and nuts. I'm not sure I could survive for long on the nutrients in mineral water.

[Healthman]

Perhaps his point was that people don't use their teeth to catch and kill animals, the same way carnivores don't use tools to catch and kill animals.

Exactly!! That is what he said. So, isn't he right? Our teeth look very different from a dog's, which is a true meat eater. When man made tools to kill game (like bow and arrow) I doubt that their body could adapt to eating a lot of meat that fast. Once the idea of bow and arrow was there it was easy for everybody to make and use them. That might have taken only a few days or weeks. Before that they couldn't kill a fast animal (by throwing rocks?).

Yes I have never seen a dog make pancakes in the forest.


I think this entire diet is a question of how long people were using bow and arrow and other sorts of weapons to kill wild animals. They might have only used them for 2 weeks and drew pictures in caves. Does that make us meat eaters? Maybe they didn't eat meat. They only defended themselves. What do those drawings proove? When we visualize a caveman those documentaties of BBC come to our minds. But can we be sure that they show an authentic picture. Even scientists can only guess.

I read that cavemen ate their meat raw before fire was found. But how can scientists be so sure ? I don't think our teeth are made for tearing raw meat apart. Just look in the mirror.

Why does the paleo diet allow deep sea fish ? How could a stone age man possibly have caugth fish that live 300 meters below the surface of the sea ?
Why are shrimp allowed. And if the stone man found fire why shouldn't he have cooked potatoes? There is no proof he didn't.


http://www.dr-schnitzer.de/acne.html

Quote:

Most toxins in the blood come from the last section of the bowel

It is the digestive system, which takes the food in from environment, assimilates it, and metabolizes it into its own energy and substances of the body. After having passed the wall of the bowel, the substances pass to the lymphatic system and reach the circulating blood, for transport to where they are needed for immediate consumption or storage. From the main part of the bowel, the blood is not directly returning into the main stream; first it passes to the liver which filters out and neutralizes toxins. Only from the last end of the bowel the blood is directly returning into the main stream of the blood.
.
This has been developed, approved and successful during an evolution of millions of years. Taking a man-appropriate native nutrition the human digestive system is genetically programmed for, there remains no toxic substances in the last section of the bowel, which would need a detoxification by the liver. This human origin nutrition was a frugivorous one. This was proved by Dr. Richard Lehne's "comparing dentition anatomy": Man's dentition is constructed to chew seeds, roots, soft leaves and fruits.
.
To compare with a typical omnivorous (=everything, vegetables and meat eater's) dentition, e.g. the wild boar is equipped with: Man's dentition should look like that, if man's genetic nutrition programming would be for vegetables and meat.


In the recent past: Dramatic change of feeding habits

During the last decades feeding habits of man changed dramatically, mainly in the so called highly civilized countries. Man's food now contains a lot of animal products, which are similarly inappropriate for the frugivorous man as for the herbivorous cattle.

If the herbivorous cattle are fed by animal products, this can result in a degeneration of the brain. BSE, a liquefaction of the brain of cattle, the first time was found in England, after parts from sheep were fed to cows, by scientists' arguments "to improve their protein supply, to increase production of milk and meat". Conclusions might be drawn from this fact to the growing number of Morbus Alzheimer (a degeneration of the human brain) with an increasing percentage of younger Alzheimer patients in a population, parallel to the increasing intake of man-inappropriate animal food (meat etc., recommended by scientists with similar arguments: "to increase protein supply").

In addition, the main part of "modern food" is more or less denatured, by heat and extraction, and refined. Even "native" vegetable foodstuffs contain pesticides, and nitrates from chemical fertilizers or from not aerobic composted animal dung. In the human bowel, these nitrates react with amines (metabolized products from animal protein), so becoming carcinogenic nitrosamines. Nitrosamines are the main cause of intestinal cancer. Intestinal cancer is one of the most widespread types of cancer of all.


http://www.dr-schnitzer.de/overweight.html

Man's original genetic frugivorous food program still is functional

According to man's genetic programming, man is not carnivorous (= meat eater like lion or dog), nor omnivorous (all-and-everything-eater like the wild boar). That's one of the reasons, why people become ill and obese with the common inappropriate, denaturated, processed civilization food.
As proven by the "Comparing Dentition Anatomy" (Dr. Richard Lehne), the natural genetic food program of man is a frugivorous one: Seeds, especially grass seeds, soft leaves, soft roots, and fruits were the human origin nutrition. Later man cultivated from the wild plants the cereals, root vegetables, leafy salads, nuts and fruits. This genetic program of man still is functional. A healthy, man-appropriate nutrition is the best "reduction diet".
As soon as overweight and obese people (as well as underweight people) return to a „civilized origin nutrition“, they can eat until satisfied, and overweight starts to drop (underweight people gain weight), until at last the weight normalizes without ever going hungry. Then the obesity (or underweight) is cured, the body's weight is normalized and stabilized, and it's easy to maintain this ideal weight for good. At the same time a strong natural health rises, and a high immunity against infections; vigor increases, digestion, the heart and kidney functions normalize, and the brain works better and easier.

Diabetes
http://www.doc-schnitzer.com/diabetes-secrets-expl.html

[Healthman]

Well, to start with we are omnivores, so of course we don't have the teeth of a carnivore. We also don't have the teeth of a herbivore either. By that logic, we shouldn't eat anything that has to be chewed, which eliminates the whole grain products, uncooked vegetables, berries, and nuts. I'm not sure I could survive for long on the nutrients in mineral water.

The only omnivore is the wild pig. I don't think we are meat eaters.
According to our teeth we are herbivores.

[Healthman]

Here is some very interesting reading material:

http://www.dr-schnitzer.de/medicusquovadis-e.html

[Hellistile]

Perhaps then you can explain to us why our digestive systems most closely resemble carnivore digestive systems and are completely different from herbivore digestive systems.

[Lisa N]

Perhaps then you can explain to us why our digestive systems most closely resemble carnivore digestive systems and are completely different from herbivore digestive systems.

Along those lines, you might want to have a look through this thread: http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=30523&highlight=humans+evolved+eating+meat

Human teeth are designed for both tearing (incisors and canines) and grinding (molars) indcating that we are omnivores, not strictly one way or the other.
Tooth structure isn't the only thing that determines whether or not an animal will eat meat or vegetable matter, although I might note that it requires molars to chew meat (once a piece is torn off with the incisors and canines) as much as it does to chew seeds and berries. Take whales, for instance. Many of them don't have teeth, but have instead baleen which are designed to filter out crill...a protein source.
As Hellistile pointed out, consider also the design of our intestinal tract. We definitely don't have more than one stomach or chew cud like cows and other ruminants who survive strictly on vegetation. Our nutritional requirements also most closely resemble those of the carnivore (essential fatty acids are hard to come by through strict vegetarian sources as are complete proteins; two things that humans MUST have and MUST obtain through dietary sources).
There are also countless indications that before man was a hunter, he was a scavanger, eating the parts of the animal left over that other animals could not get to such as the brains (skulls broken open) and bone marrow (bones broken in half) (interestingly, the parts highest in essential fatty acids) as well as countless indications that man was a hunter (spear heads, arrow heads, tool marks (not tooth marks) on bones and bones dug up near ancient dwellings).
As for greater health among cultures that don't eat meat, that is untrue also. Paleantologists have shown that as cultures moved away from eating meat and into more agriculture, stature declined, dental caries and disease increased. Skeletons and teeth can give important clues as to the health of the deceased.

[K Walt]

We HAVE to be omnivorous because it is virtually impossible to get enough food energy out of wild plants alone.

You'd have to eat something like several POUNDS of leaves and stems and uncultivated fruits to get enough calories to survive on. We don't have the vast intestinal capacity that apes have, to process that kind of bulk. It it also very hard to gather that much. A small family group would need to gather, then eat 50-60 pounds of wild vegetation PER DAY to survive. Very difficult.

Figure how many calories in the average head of broccoli (NOT found in nature by the way?) How many calories in a red pepper (also NOT found in nature?) Add it up, and you'd have to ingest MASSIVE amounts of plants just to subsist. Provided you didn't eat any toxic plants. And about 70% of the plant you find are toxic.

If you included some wild, non-cultivated tubers and roots -- which are usually toxic unless processed in some way -- you could reduce the poundage somewhat.

You cannot feed on wild grains. Our teeth are not equipped to grind them. By your reasoning, we cannot be natural grain eaters. We do not have gnawing teeth of rats. Nor the flat grinding teeth of a horse. The only way to eat grains is to pound and grind them with rocks. Go to Whole Foods market, buy a bag of wheat berries out of the barrel and try to eat them. Your teeth will break in five minutes.

Try to eat a wild walnut with your teeth. Or a hazelnut, or a Brazil nut. Gotta use a rock to crack it. (How is that different from using a rock to crack open the bones of a buffalo?)

Go out into your backyard, or your nearby forest or desert, and pick your dinner. Go ahead. Most of what's there is inedible. Most of the plants are outright toxic.

Go visit some of the 'wild foraging' sites on the web. Most have DIRE warnings all over the place that the vast majority of plants are downright deadly to eat, unless you know the few species you CAN eat.


The ONLY way to consistently get 2000 calories a day, is to include calorie-dense animal foods in your diet. To my knowledge there has NEVER been a free-living society that subsisted ONLY on wild plant foods. You simply can't do it. They either supplement with animal foods OR they grow a few select crop plants -- which are usually VERY different from those found in nature.

Sure, today you can theoretically get enough calories on a purely 'vegan' diet -- but ONLY if you include (1) mutant plants that do NOT exist in nature, and in fact will not survive without human tending (2) you process them in some way, involving mechanical crushing, or fermentation, or soaking or enzymatic treatment.

Now, tell me ONE wild animal that is toxic to eat. Maybe a tree frog? Okay, you might not like the tast of raccoon, or hippo. But the meat is not at all toxic. How many plants are toxic?

We had to be omivores, or we wouldn't have survived.

[steveed]

If we were made for being vegetarian we wouldn't have opposable thumbs for grabbing our prey would we? Our hands grab very efficiently without having to use our heads/teeth. Vegetation does not move. Standing up on two feet also comes in handy for scouting for prey and seeing something that might want to eat us as well. Meat in part, made us what we are.

[ItsTheWooo]

Hi,

I learned about the paleo diet just yesterday and spend a few hours reading up on this topic. Up until yesterday I have followed Dr. Schnitzers diet which says that whole grain products, uncooked vegetables, berries, nuts and mineral water was the way to go. He argues that we don't have the teeth of a carnivore.

Since our teeth are not made to tear flesh apart humans are not meat eaters and therefore should restrain form eating meat.

Could anybody please comment on this ?
Thank you very much.
Totally untrue.

We have an omnivores dental formula, because well we are pretty much omnivorous. Although we lean towards being carnivorous, we are default omnivores and can survive on any kind of diet. However, it is unquestionably obvious when the whole animal is considered that humans thrive on a primarily animal flesh/product diet.

We have two incisors, 1 canine, and 2 premolars, and 3 molars. The function of the incisor is to cut (flesh mostly) like a scissor or knife. The function of the canine is to work like a fork or spear, to stab and tear off bits of flesh. The premolar is a combination of a canine and a molar, it both tears apart flesh like the canine but it also has a grinding function like the molar. Our molars are for grinding roughage and vegetation so they may be utilized by the body.

True grazing herbivores have predominantly molar type teeth. They do not have the quantity of carnivorous teeth that we do.

Anyway, it's important to remember that things like musculature, shape of the head, and teeth are all tools for giving an animal access to food. They do give valuable clues as to the nature of their diet, but we must not lose sight of the fact that the most valuable tool a human has is his brain. While form of the animal can predict other creatures diets with reasonable accuracy, since it is their lone and exclusive tool, our bodies are only supplementary to our brain. A better indicator of what diet we thrive on is our digestive system, which is far more biased toward carnivorism than herbivorism.

The human's intestinal tract is very short, more like carnivores and unlike a herbivores. Carnivores have short intestinal tracts because meat carries parasites and bacteria, waste of which must be rapidly excreted to prevent disease. Plus flesh food is in a form that is readily accessible to animals (the structures of a rat isn't all that different from a cat, for example) and does not require lengthy digestive processes (relative to fiber at least). Herbivores have much longer intestinal tracts and multiple "sacks" to catch roughage (i.e. caecum). The function of this is to retain hard to digest fiber and bulk so it may be fermented by bacteria, producing energy for the organism. If humans had to depend on that sort of diet composed of grasses and leaves, they would soon die. We could never produce enough energy from microbiobal fermentation exclusively to support our existence.

Well what about fruit and grain you may be thinking. Humans can eat the sugars and starches and live on that. It's important to remember that the highly sugared fruits and grain foods that exist today are the result of human interference with nature. Thousands of years of agriculture has produced these highly sweet fruits and refined grains. In their natural state, grains cannot be consumed because they are mostly non-starchy bulk. Modern fruit has been the result of cross breeding which favors abnormally high concentrations of sweetness.

Let's think about this for a second. If you looked at a truly unmodernized primitive human, what would his diet look like? In a natural environment, where humans are surrounded by only what occurs naturally, they would find a) leaves, roots, grasses, b) scant nuts and berries and fruit from the trees and bushes, c) animals. There would be no highly sweet fruits, there would be no soft bowl of rice. The sweet fruit, when found (most plant fruits are not that high in energy) would not exist in any bounty and could not fuel the expansion of human societies. Furthermore, we could not yet extract and refine the grains enough to make them a decent source of energy... that didn't enter the picture until like 10,000 years ago. What did we do before that?

Now a primarily herbivorous animal (like earlier primates, grazing animals, etc) could easily feast on the naturally occurring leaves, roots, and grasses and totally sustain his existence due to the nature of his digestive system. They retain all that hard to digest bulk, ferment it, and it supplies them enough energy. If a human did that, he would die. Fiber gives us about 1.6 calories per ingested calorie, and there is no way we can retain enough of it long enough or in a quantity enough to fuel us.

The only way a human can get enough energy to sustain himself in a totally natural environment is by hunting and consuming flesh food. Flesh food is designed to overwhelmingly make up the energy we consume. Nuts, fruit, berries, and roughage are only supplementary to the natural human diet.

[ItsTheWooo]

The only omnivore is the wild pig. I don't think we are meat eaters.
According to our teeth we are herbivores.
I think my teeth resembles my cats way more than it does a deer.

http://www.as.wvu.edu/~sraylman/comparative/lectures/digest/img027.jpg

The first number represents incisors, the second canines (both of which are exclusively for meat eating and serve absolutely no function for the exclusive plant eater), the second represents premolar (crushing teeth, useful to all orientations of animal), and the last represents molars. The first number is upper second is lower set.

As you can see, humans have a dental formula similar to both meat eaters and plant eaters.

It's plainly obvious. In nature, divorced of modern society and refining practices, a human has two options. 1) consume animals and live, 2) pretend to be herbivorous and starve. We simply cannot get enough energy from the abundant bulk, and fruits/nuts/berries are too scarce to ever fuel us effectively.

[ItsTheWooo]

We HAVE to be omnivorous because it is virtually impossible to get enough food energy out of wild plants alone. <snip>
Just wanted to say, that was an excellent post. You put it so much better than I did ;).

[steveed]

Healthman,

I was just re watching my 2001:Space Oddyssey dvd...
Those apes were dying out trying to subsist off of vegetation that was disappearing, but that monolith got them to eat some good ol' wild tapir.

Touch the Monolith Healthman, touch it now! :lol:

[TheCaveman]

I don't think our teeth are made for tearing raw meat apart. Just look in the mirror.

No need to look in the mirror; I tear raw meat apart every single day. I'm really very serious. I'm not sure why anyone thinks it's so hard to do.

If we weren't able to do it, we still wouldn't be able to do it. There is only evolutionary pressure when there is a selective advantage to having teeth that can tear meat. If everyone can tear meat just fine, then there's no selective advantage, so no change would take place.

I think Dr. Schnitzer's work doesn't make sense to us because he lacks an evolutionary argument.

[TheCaveman]

A small family group would need to gather, then eat 50-60 pounds of wild vegetation PER DAY to survive. Very difficult.

And very, very difficult during the winter. We presume that plants fruit all year, probably because fruits show up in our stores all year. Plants flower, fruit and then go dormant. They can't afford to fruit all year. Too much energy spent for too little chance for their seeds to sprout.

What DID humans do for the nine months out of the year for two and a half million years? Starve? And with no serious source of protein all year round?

[Healthman]

Perhaps then you can explain to us why our digestive systems most closely resemble carnivore digestive systems and are completely different from herbivore digestive systems.

I can not. I am not competent to answer such a question. I am a programmer. :) I was just citing Dr. Schnitzer. But I think that he explained that out digestive section is that of frugivore. So is our dentition and salivia. The saliva of man and meat eaters like dogs is very different. Our saliva is to gigest carbonhydrates. A dog doesn't chew. It just gulps down chunks of meat.

[Healthman]

Vegetation does not move. Standing up on two feet also comes in handy for scouting for prey and seeing something that might want to eat us as well. Meat in part, made us what we are.

We are walking upright so we can reach fruits and stuff. If we were meat eaters we would be walking on all fours. The speer heads that were found were used to protect families from wild animals. Woud you walk though Alaska without a rifle ?

Also man needed furs of animals. That is why they killed them.

[Healthman]

And very, very difficult during the winter. We presume that plants fruit all year, probably because fruits show up in our stores all year. Plants flower, fruit and then go dormant. They can't afford to fruit all year. Too much energy spent for too little chance for their seeds to sprout.

What DID humans do for the nine months out of the year for two and a half million years? Starve? And with no serious source of protein all year round?


Well what did all other animals do when the the earth was covered with snow. What did deer do? They didn't go hunting and survived.

BTW I am not arguing just trying to find the truth. If we ARE meat eaters I will eat meat like crazy. But I have second thoughts. Why do heavy meat eather get abdominal cancer much more often that vegetarians ?

One more thing. Even if we were meat eaters 10000 years ago. Those animals don't exist anymore. That is the same argumentation with which you are trying to convince me that sweet fruits are not natural. Why should we eat cows. There were no cows 10000 years ago. Or chicken ...

[tagcaver]

Healthman, you said this in post #4;

I think this entire diet is a question of how long people were using bow and arrow and other sorts of weapons to kill wild animals. They might have only used them for 2 weeks and drew pictures in caves. Does that make us meat eaters? Maybe they didn't eat meat. They only defended themselves. What do those drawings proove? When we visualize a caveman those documentaties of BBC come to our minds. But can we be sure that they show an authentic picture. Even scientists can only guess.

And this in post #18:
We are walking upright so we can reach fruits and stuff. If we were meat eaters we would be walking on all fours. The speer heads that were found were used to protect families from wild animals. Woud you walk though Alaska without a rifle ?

Also man needed furs of animals. That is why they killed them.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. If even scientists can only guess, then why are you so sure of what you said in post 18?

I have a degree in biology. We are omnivores. Plain and simple. This isn't a "guess" by scientists, but documented fact. Check any high school biology text, or if you don't trust those, feel free to check journals like "Nature", "The European Journal of Human Genetics", or "Heredity". Those are all peer-reviewed scientific journals.

Oh, and snakes are meat eaters. They don't walk on all fours. Neither do fish, and most of them are carnivores. So that argument doesn't quite work.

Joan the Omnivore

[LadyBelle]

Once the idea of bow and arrow was there it was easy for everybody to make and use them. That might have taken only a few days or weeks. Before that they couldn't kill a fast animal (by throwing rocks?).

Actually not all primitive cultures had bows and arrows. Some hunted by driving the animals off cliffs, using traps or other means that were effective for thier area. As for the time man was a hunter scavanger if you make a time line the hunter scavanger stage would fill up almost 97% or more of our history. Agraculture, domestication of animals, diary and so forth are extreamly recent human advancements on the grand scale of things.

I don't know if you count sea food as a meat, but there is high evidence early man in regions near water had fish and sea food diets. Many had great teeth due to the lack of refined sugars and the calcium from shell fishes.

[RCFletcher]

We are walking upright so we can reach fruits and stuff
Why would we bother. Chimpanzees and gorillas can 'reach fruits and stuff' and they still walk on all fours.
Well what did all other animals do when the the earth was covered with snow. What did deer do? They didn't go hunting and survived.
They dug with their hooves and unearthed things like reindeer moss which we are completely unable to digest - so we ate the deer instead.

BTW I am not arguing just trying to find the truth. If we ARE meat eaters I will eat meat like crazy. But I have second thoughts. Why do heavy meat eather get abdominal cancer much more often that vegetarians ?
This is not true. The highest incidences of stomach cancer are amongst the vegetarian populations of India.

One more thing. Even if we were meat eaters 10000 years ago. Those animals don't exist anymore. That is the same argumentation with which you are trying to convince me that sweet fruits are not natural. Why should we eat cows. There were no cows 10000 years ago. Or chicken ...

There were cows 10000 years ago they were called aurochs (Bos taurus primigenius) the wild ancestor of our wild cow. We hunted, killed and ate them.

No one really cares if you eat meat or not - the choice is up to you. The only reason I don't eat sweet fruit is because I'm on a weight reduction regieme and if I ate it I wouldn't lose weight. People who have normal carbohydrate metabolisms and are not overweight should eat all types of fruit and vegetables.

[4biddenEve]

Speaking as a humanvore (brand new word I just made up), I think with time we have evolved to eat a balanced diet. Some of us can enjoy fruit without deprivation, others can consume more meat without consequences. Does that mean we are one thing or the other? No, it means we are all human but we are all different. The glorious wonder of being a human, is that we do not have to be equal to be human. We can be different and embrace our differences as a great quality. Granted, we struggle sometimes trying to find out what foods affect us more than our friends, but when we find out...Oh joy! We then discover the key to living healthy and happy. I think that is the whole science behind weight loss, meat eaters, veggie eaters or balanced diet eaters. So, who cares if our teeth are like dogs or like cats. When I eat a steak I use a knife and fork, and I am able to chew it. Dogs are meassier eaters, but they eat until they are satisfied, as do Cats and other animals. Good for them! I rather use a fork and a knife and even a napkin! Yes, I said it! A napkin. Makes me happy to be a HUMANVORE. :lol:

[RCFletcher]

Someone might like to read this if they have an afternoon to spare!
http://www.thincs.org/discuss.cavemen.htm

[zedgirl]

This is the best site I've come across on this issue so far: -

www.beyondveg.com

[fadingkate]

If we ARE meat eaters I will eat meat like crazy.


The only person who can decide if you are a meat-eater or not is YOU! The gorgeous thing about the human mechanism is that we have brains, free will, and the ability to think rationally.

What difference does it make what the first humans ate? Just because they did it doesn't make it the optimal situation. They were doing whatever they could do to stay alive, without the benefit of modern industry, agriculture, or science. And on that note, they didn't stay alive nearly as long as we do. So I'd hardly model my life after a caveman's.

KK

[Quinadal]

Why does the original post set off my PETA freak alarm??

[ItsTheWooo]

Well what did all other animals do when the the earth was covered with snow. What did deer do? They didn't go hunting and survived.

BTW I am not arguing just trying to find the truth. If we ARE meat eaters I will eat meat like crazy. But I have second thoughts. Why do heavy meat eather get abdominal cancer much more often that vegetarians ?

My theory is it probably has to do with processed meats. Nitrites which cure the processed meats that americans eat daily have a known association with stomach cancers. My own grandfather who ate bacon every morning died of stomach cancer.

There is also the potential that the synthetic hormones we put in our animals might cause some problems. However, I think most of the cancer stuff is linked to the curing/seasoning/treatment of processed meat.
Besides, it's not as if veggies aren't processed. We put toxic pesticides all over crops, grow them in nutrient barren soils, etc. Vegetarians eat a ton of processed food too like grains, soy, etc. French fries are vegan.

I look at it this way. No matter what you do there is a risk. All you can do is lower that risk. I fully believe that eating a diet which is as high as possible in unprocessed food is the way to go. It's not a meat eater vs vegetarian thing, it's a fastfood hamburger and/or deep fried french fries vs steaks and/or baked potatoes thing. I don't think eating meat is a danger to anyones health. Even if there are toxic substances in animal products there are numerous beneficial ones that are hard if not impossible to get from vegetation. Likewise, even if there are toxic substances in some vegetation (sugar for one) it doesn't mean it's a good idea to abstain from it because vegetation has a lot of healthy properties. A balanced diet high in unprocessed food is the way to go. Animal products are part of a balanced diet. Do what you want for moral reasons, but you can't tell me that a diet that excludes animal products is balanced or healthy.

[ItsTheWooo]

We are walking upright so we can reach fruits and stuff. If we were meat eaters we would be walking on all fours. The speer heads that were found were used to protect families from wild animals. Woud you walk though Alaska without a rifle ?

Also man needed furs of animals. That is why they killed them.

If you won't accept the indisputable fact that our ancestors were hunters and lived on a diet VERY high in animal flesh/products, you are simply so deep in denial that it makes this discussion pointless. Believe whatever you want. Believe t prehistoric man lived in the garden of eden and ate fruit off the vine and would never ever break the placid tranquility by hunting naimals. Have a blast.

[Lisa N]

The only person who can decide if you are a meat-eater or not is YOU! The gorgeous thing about the human mechanism is that we have brains, free will, and the ability to think rationally.

Yes, and despite the fact that man's meat consumption is credited with his developing a larger brain and all those thought processes that go with it, we do all have the ability to choose for ourselves how we will eat.

The saliva of man and meat eaters like dogs is very different. Our saliva is to gigest carbonhydrates.

This is because dogs (and the wolves from which they are descended) are strictly carnivores. They don't need enzymes with which to digest that which they do not eat. Humans, OTOH, are omnivores (meaning we eat both meat and vegetation, not that we eat everything in sight, although that could apply to some humans as well ;) ). If you are going to compare, then compare like with like (omnivore with omnivore). Not omnivore with strictly carnivore or stictly vegetarian. The argument seems to be running that we are either strictly carnivore or herbivore while ignoring the obvious that we are actually both (omnivore).

Well what did all other animals do when the the earth was covered with snow. What did deer do? They didn't go hunting and survived.

I'm assuming that you mean what did herbivorous animals do. Some animals did hunt (wolves, big cats, etc...) as well as scavange the animals who died of starvation which brings me to the answer to your question; they starved in great numbers if they could not uncover enough vegetation to survive on. This happens during the winter months now when animal populations (such as deer) are too large for their environment to support their need for food during the winter months. Some herds/species went extinct during prolonged winter conditions such as ice ages if they did not or were not capable of migrating to warmer climates were food was more readily available.

Why do heavy meat eather get abdominal cancer much more often that vegetarians ?

If you are referring to the study that I think you are, they did not differentiate between unprocessed meats (beef, chicken, pork with nothing else added) and highly processed meats such as lunch meats, bacon and hot dogs that are often treated with nitrites (a known carcinogen) and sugar.

I was just citing Dr. Schnitzer. But I think that he explained that out digestive section is that of frugivore. So is our dentition and salivia.

I believe part of this was already addressed (the saliva issue), but I really think you need to take another look at whose digestive system (particulary the intestines) humans most closely resemble. The answer to that is our intestines more closely resemble those of the carnivore than the herbivore.

[ItsTheWooo]

I can not. I am not competent to answer such a question. I am a programmer. :) I was just citing Dr. Schnitzer. But I think that he explained that out digestive section is that of frugivore. So is our dentition and salivia. The saliva of man and meat eaters like dogs is very different. Our saliva is to gigest carbonhydrates. A dog doesn't chew. It just gulps down chunks of meat.
Since you are obviously a PETA person, could you let me know why moral vegetarians have a fetishist obsession with the concept of eating only fruits (fruitarianism or whatever it's called)? I've noticed the more eccentric/extreme the vegetarian, the more they tend to shun "immoral food", which is to be expected. However fruit is held up by the vegetarian as the most "morally pure" food. It seems like the most eccentric/extremist vegetarians are "strict fruitarians". I can understand how they reason animal foods are less morally pure than vegetation, but how do they justify moral classification of vegetation? How is fruit more pure than vegetables? Is it because of the symbolic association between fruit with child like moral purity? Fruit, is after all, a virgin plant. It's sweet and ripe designed to aid the seedlings within to maturity. Fruit would be the food of choice in the garden of eden. It's goodness, nurturance, absolute purity.

Am I right about the fruit = most pure food thing?

Hey, what is the least pure food? I know a lot of vegetarians think red meat is worse than say fish or chicken, but is this a common belief among them? I would think most vegetarians would think all flesh products are equally wrong.

[Healthman]

... then why are you so sure of what you said in post 18?


I am not sure at all!!!! As I said I am a programmer not a biologist. I just read a lot and I don't know who is wrong and who is right. I can only differentiate between the number of people that believe in or represent various opinions and beliefs. I am happy to hear arguments for both sides here. Some I have never thought about. Thx for those. :thup:

[Healthman]

Since you are obviously a PETA person, could you let me know why moral vegetarians have a fetishist obsession with the concept of eating only fruits (fruitarianism or whatever it's called)?

Sorry I am from Germany. I have no idea what PETA stands for. No, I am not a strict vegetarian. I read about Low Carb in a German news magazine and that there was a big hype in the US right now. So I want to learn more. I have thought about what man should eat a lot in my life. I am on neither side.

I just want to hear as many arguments as possible. ;)
It makes sense what many people say. And I am not stubborn, either.
:agree:

What about eating tropical fruits and at the same time eating domestic fruits, assuming I was living in Germany or Canada or whereever on the northern globe.

The prehistoric man had not way of eating fruits grown in South Africa and fruits from Norway at the same time. People never talk about such aspects.

Why are the Asians so slim? They eat tons of rice. Rice belongs to the group of grains. Rice can not be eaten unprocessed.

And: I still don't understand why seafood is allowed. How could caveman have caught fish or shrip that lives at the bottom of the sea?
Did the have scuba diving gear and oxygen tanks ?

[MichaelG]

I live on Bribie Island which is a sand island just offshore (probably what Galveston Texas would have been like a hundred years ago!). Until about the early 1900's there was a fair population of Aboriginal hunter gatherers here and there are huge "middens" containing literally millions of sea shells from the seafood they feasted on and dumped the shells in big piles. There's a pile in the bushland behind our house.

Also in our area is a well preserved fish trap built of stones in the form of a ring of stones which runs out from the shore, curves around and returns to the shore again to form a shallow lagoon. At high tide fish and crabs would enter the area, and when the tide ran out they would be trapped and the indegenous hunters would wade out with spears and collect them. It's now a protected heritage area, and not too many fish compared to 100 years ago.

Other sources of fish are in rivers and lakes. We have a giant species of perch called a barramundi which can be as big as a small dog and is quite "spearable"!

Until recorded times turtles, dugong (a form of Mannatee) and even small crocodiles were part of the diet.

Cheers
Michael Gardner
Bribie Island
Queensland
Australia

[MichaelG]

About asians being slim, remember that although rice is important, most of Northern asia lives on wheat - e.g. steamed buns, noodles etc. I personally believe that many but not all Chinese are generally slim for genetic resons... for example my partner is half Chinese and half Aboriginal (due to the Palmer River Gold rush in the 1880,s when there was some mixing of the races). She, and her son and two daughters eat like horses and are always skinny. In american measure she's a size 6 and no amount of feeding seems to make a difference! She eats as much as my son who is 250 lb american and 6ft 6.

On the other hand the major fattening agent for Sumo wrestlers is a stew mixed liberally with huge portions of rice.

Lumping Asians together as one 'race' is also unrealistic. They are as different from each other as say Arabs are from Norwegians from Italians..... I know of several overweight Sikhs, and in my younger dissolute days I visited a certain establishment in Bankok where they had a section of very overweight local female workers who were apparently much prized by customers from the middle east.. 'nuff said!

Michael
Australia

[PaulaB]

Why are the Asians so slim? They eat tons of rice. Rice belongs to the group of grains. Rice can not be eaten unprocessed.



Most of the indian born women,where I work, who still ony eat the traditional food are extremely overweight. So there is one argument out of the window.

[mrfreddy]

Why are the Asians so slim? They eat tons of rice. Rice belongs to the group of grains. Rice can not be eaten unprocessed.



she's just one Asian, but my chinese girlfriend tells me her diet back home was a modest amount of rice every day, along with vegetables and some sort of animal or fish protein... no bread, very few refined carbs except for rice. Sounded to me like she was eating about 100 g carbs a day, more or less.

Remeber, the chinese food you see in Chinese restaraunts anywhere except in China has very little in common with what the Chinese actually eat.

[DietSka]

Healthman, you may want to have a look at this:

FUNCTIONAL AND STRUCTURAL COMPARISON OF MAN'S DIGESTIVE TRACT WITH THAT OF A DOG AND SHEEP
http://www.paleodiet.com/comparison.html

It's very concise and informative.

[TheCaveman]

How is fruit more pure than vegetables?

As far as the fruitarians are concerned, a fruit is a PART of the plant, the taking of which doesn't kill the plant (fruits, nuts, leaves). It's all about death (Hindu belief, karma, or something like that.) Any method of harvesting food that kills a plant (root vegetables, and nearly all vegetables) is wrong.

It's not that fruit is more pure, it's that the person doing the eating is more pure.

[csoar2004]

It's not that fruit is more pure, it's that the person doing the eating is more pure. :o :lol: :D Oh my...please don't take this the wrong way, but....


CHORTLE**SNICKER**SNORT

thanks for the laugh-out-loud moment! I need lotsa those! :D

[Lisa N]

The prehistoric man had not way of eating fruits grown in South Africa and fruits from Norway at the same time. People never talk about such aspects.

Healthman, if you do a search of the site, you'll find that this has been discussed here at least a few times. I know I've brought it up a couple of times myself.
Where I live, native fruits are available for only a short period of time (late June to late August) and they consist of berries (strawberries, blackberries, blueberries); low glycemic, lower carb and high in antioxidants. We have apples, pears and peaches grown here as well but they are not native to the area so we would have to leave them out of any type of paleo discussion. Wild strawberries, blackberries and blueberries are much smaller and not as sweet as the domesticated version, are very labor intensive to gather and do not keep unless you know how to dry or preserve them, so it would be nearly impossible to exist on them year round here. There are a few nuts that are native (if the squirrels don't get to them before you do), but green vegetation is also only available for a limited time period (May through maybe October if the frost comes late) and there is no way to preserve it for later use. What this area did have in plentiful supply year round were animals such as deer, turkey, quail and an abundance of streams and small lakes from which fish could be netted or speared such as Salmon, Bass, Pike and Smelt. When the Salmon are running, quite a few can be netted or speared in a small amount of time (less labor intensive and much more productive than gathering berries), then dried or smoked to preserve for later use. Same thing applies for deer or turkey meat. As you can see, for the labor involved, it would have been much more efficient for the peoples native to this area to hunt and fish than it would have been to survive on vegetation year round.

Why are the Asians so slim? They eat tons of rice. Rice belongs to the group of grains. Rice can not be eaten unprocessed.

I'm assuming that by unprocessed, you mean uncooked and in that you are correct. However, it does not have to be the polished white rice with the bran removed that we are used to seeing to be edible.
As to Asians eating "tons of rice", I think you are repeating a common misconception that their diets are heavy on the rice with supplemental amounts of meat and vegetable.
See these links for some discussions regarding traditional Asian diets:
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/japan.html
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/korean_beef.html
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/thailand.html

Another factor of Asia that many overlook is that the concept of free time traditionally is unknown in those countries and the activity levels in general are very high, particulary in the rural farming areas. It's no secret that if you move your body more, you can safely ingest a higher carb level, but how many of us have activity levels commonly found in rural farming communities?

[VickiR]

Having trekked in Nepal, I've seen some Asians pack away LOTS of rice at one sitting - way more than I'd consider with my current lifestyle.

However, one should bear in mind two things: these folks are hiking 10-20 miles regularly EVERY DAY. Up and down mountains. By "hiking" I generally refer here to either going up and down hills to tend animals, bring in firewood, carry stuff around - there are no vehicles to speak of and everything that gets moved around, get's carried. This includes building materials, everything.

They do stay pretty skinny, but they seem to burn it off pretty quick, too.

Additionally, when I'm hiking around on a trek, I can pretty much eat as much rice and snickers bars as I want and lose weight. I have to eat A LOT. Veggies are rare and tend to be potatos, sometimes some green stuff will appear. I *avoid* meat and animal protein while trekking, not because it's "impure", but because there IS NO REFRIGERATION - and that chunk o beast might have been slaughtered yesterday, last week, or a month ago. Further, the meat might be full of pathogens that I care not to think of. A plate of rice with lentil soup is a lot safer, trust me!

Also, even if I did manage to put on weight, I'd be durn happy for it, since, as a Westerner, at some point, I can count on getting sick and losing 5-10 pounds overnight, through no fault of my own!

ONE LAST POINT: yeah, it's a lot of rice. But overall, life expectancy in Nepal is quite low, around 45-50 years, at least out on the trail (where a lot of Nepali's live). Is it due to diet? Couldn't tell you, it is likely infectious disease or lack of medical care, but diet could play into it.

I'd only eat that much rice, if I were planning to spend several hours each day hiking, walking, running, swimming, or something. Several hours! daily! lots! It's not practical to work and exercise that much, and still have time for friends and R&R.

[Quinadal]

What about eating tropical fruits and at the same time eating domestic fruits, assuming I was living in Germany or Canada or whereever on the northern globe.
The prehistoric man had not way of eating fruits grown in South Africa and fruits from Norway at the same time. People never talk about such aspects
I live in Florida, and we get all types of fruit here. Depends on if you're north or south. We also get 2 growing seasons, so there would be alot more types of fruits available.

[TheCaveman]

:o :lol: :D Oh my...please don't take this the wrong way, but....

CHORTLE**SNICKER**SNORT

No offense taken. I have the same reaction to The Zone.

Want to hear something REALLY funny? Some people believe that the deer IS the grass, and the man IS the deer, and the tiger IS the man, and the vulture IS the tiger, and the soil IS the vulture poop, and the grass IS the soil. There are people out there who believe that It Is All One Thing. To these people, there is no difference between the grass and the tiger, the man and the soil, the vulture and the deer.

Anyone can laugh at this as much as they like, but the people who believe this thing believe it as much as fruitarians believe what's in THEIR hearts.

Healthman, some good questions, I think. http://www.beyondveg.com/cat/research/index.shtml is probably the best place to start if you are wondering about this topic.

http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-toc5.shtml goes directly to your questions about comparative physiology and the attending metadiscussion. (BeyondVeg is a bit whiney for my taste, but it will get you started, at least.)

Keep asking questions, Healthman. Way back when, I was RIGHT where you are. And look where *I* ended up!

[Healthman]

Keep asking questions, Healthman. Way back when, I was RIGHT where you are. And look where *I* ended up!

Sure, here we go.

1) Heavy meat eaters get the gout. I know a few people. Why is that, if meat is good for us ? Why do physicians all say that we should cut down on eating meat.

2) Why weren't people obese 200 years ago? Only after they started eating lots of sugar, cakes (basically after the industrial revolution). 200 years ago everybody ate bread. It was the staple.

3) Still now African aboriginees they make break on hot stones. They grind grains ... They are slim.

4) How can we substitute grains, potatoes with other food? Won't we get a deficiancy of vitamin d, calcium, vitamin B's, etc? What other food would be a good substitute ?

5) Why can't we eat corn in this paleo diet? It is a grain but I doesn't have to be boiled like potatoes to be eatable.

6) Cattle nowadays contains a lot of fat. The cattle is fed by man during the winter months- People that eat lots of meat get heart attacks. The meat is not the same as the one that the cavemen consumed. That was lean meat.
Therefore the ratio can not be 65% meat to 35% other foodstuff as it supposedly was in the stoneage. That would kill us in no time flat.

7) Cattle nowadays is fet hormones and tons of grains. Cattle are no grain eaters. But if we eat grain fed cattle then what is the difference ?

8) What is the best way of eating meat ? BBQ it ? BBQing is the only way to get rid of most of the fat. Waht meat containst the least fat ?

BTW, my girlfriend is Japanese. I know that they eat a lot of rice. It is not a misconception. Rice accompanies every dish. They don't just eat it every other day.

[MichaelG]

Misconception that people who eat a lot of meat get heart attacks. please read "the oiling of america" by dr. mary enig.. any search on Google will bring up the online version. at the beginning of the 20th century unless you were of mediterranean origin, all the fat in your diet was saturated.
people used liberal quantities of fats for cooking, and butter and cream were consumed in huge quantities. Heart attacks were virtually unknown, although most of the population lived to be "heart attack age".

the modern epidemic of heart attacks can be linked to the growing use of vegetable oils and margarines, especially the "polyunsaturated" varieties which contain fats not present in nature.

Aboriginal populations bake bread on hot stones because "white" traders have introduced them to flour. Here in Australia the basic diet of aborigines drafted into agricultural work in the 19th century was flour, sugar, tea and of course tobacco and rum!

Traditionally, animals during the winter were fed on .. you guessed it ... HAY... if mr Healthman you go on a tour of your own countryside in the autumn to this day you will see bales of HAY dotting the landscape. hay is of course dried grass. Maybe you could get out into the country a bit more.

Paleolithic type eaters such as Paleo and neanderthin avoid grain fed animals and prefer grass fed.

Maize (corn) comes from the new world and was not known generally until about 300 years ago. Especially in Italy, many of the peasants converted to a diet of stuff like Polenta which caused massive health problems.

Keep it coming mr healthman.. I'm sure in time your questions will all be answered!

best regards

Michael, Australia.

[Lisa N]

1) Heavy meat eaters get the gout. I know a few people. Why is that, if meat is good for us ? Why do physicians all say that we should cut down on eating meat.

This is not true universally. Heavy drinkers are also prone to getting gout, but there's no protein consumption involved there. Men are more prone to gout than women. Not all people who eat a lot of meat get gout. Not all meats are associated with gout, either, only those that are high in purines and only in those who seem genetically susceptible to it. Note also in this link that dried beans and peas are also high in purines and can trigger gout, so it's not just meat that's the culprit:
http://www.niams.nih.gov/hi/topics/gout/gout.htm
I have yet to meet a physician that says we should cut down on eating all meat, although there is a general perception among physicians that red meat consumption should be limited due to its saturated fat content, but we'll get to that later.

2) Why weren't people obese 200 years ago? Only after they started eating lots of sugar, cakes (basically after the industrial revolution). 200 years ago everybody ate bread. It was the staple.

People were obese 200 years ago, although not at the rate that they are today. People were obese (and had heart disease, diabetes and dental caries) during the ancient Egyptian dynasties as evidenced by examination of thousands of mummies and, incidentally, I've seen estimates that rate their percentages of obesity as similar to what is being seen in America today. Care to guess what their diets looked like? Lots of bread and grains, very little sugar. 200 years ago, people didn't have cars or most of the modern conveniences that we have today, nor did they have the same year-round access to certain foods that we do today.

3) Still now African aboriginees they make break on hot stones. They grind grains ... They are slim.

If you live like an Aborginee, then you can probably get away with eating like one (although from what I've read, I hope you enjoy eating insects and other unusual protein sources). ;) I wasn't aware that African had Aborigines and I'd be interested in seeing your links to where you got your information on their native diet.

4) How can we substitute grains, potatoes with other food? Won't we get a deficiancy of vitamin d, calcium, vitamin B's, etc? What other food would be a good substitute ?

You are aware that grains and potatoes in and of themselves are not terribly nutritious, right? Ask yourself why products that use grain as their main ingredient need to be vitamin fortified if they are so great on their own? All of the vitamins that you listed are not found in great quantities in grains. They are, however, found in much larger abundance in protein and animal fat as well as in certain vegetables. BTW, you need certain fats to properly absorb some of the minerals that you listed, specifically calcium.

6) Cattle nowadays contains a lot of fat. The cattle is fed by man during the winter months- People that eat lots of meat get heart attacks. The meat is not the same as the one that the cavemen consumed. That was lean meat.
Therefore the ratio can not be 65% meat to 35% other foodstuff as it supposedly was in the stoneage. That would kill us in no time flat.

While I won't argue that grassfed beef is better for us than grain fed beef (better omega 3 to 6 ratio) and I'd like to note that grass fed beef is available for purchase, I'm curious on what you base the assertion that a diet that is 65% meat and 35% other would kill us in no time? Links? Resources? Can I also point out that a diet that was 65% meat and 35% other would not be 65% protein since meat also contains a certain percentage of fat and not all meats supply the same grams of protein per ounce. People that eat lots of meat get heart attacks? Can you post your references for that one?
Depending on the season that the animal was hunted, it might or might not have contained a lot of fat. Grazing animals tend to fatten in the spring, summer and early fall and then get lean through the winter months. Paleo hunters were also a lot more likely than we are to eat the organs of the animal that were of high fat content regardless of the season, such as the brain and livers, and also to suck the marrow out of the bones (also very high in fat).


7) Cattle nowadays is fet hormones and tons of grains. Cattle are no grain eaters. But if we eat grain fed cattle then what is the difference ?

I won't argue about the homones, although law states that they must be discontinued 2 weeks or more prior to the slaughter of the animal before it can be sold for human consumption at which point a large percentage of them have left the animal's system, I have to point out that ruminents such as cattle are very efficient at doing something that we humans cannot; turning grass and grains (ie vegetation) into proteins and fats. As you've mentioned earlier, cows are herbivores. Grain is vegetation. While it may not be native to the animal's diet, it certainly does a good job of fattening them up (curiously, it has a similar effect on humans ;) ) and is consistent with what the animal requires as food. Grasses are better, grains are more convenient.

8) What is the best way of eating meat ? BBQ it ? BBQing is the only way to get rid of most of the fat. Waht meat containst the least fat ?

Why would you want to get rid of the fat? Contrary to popular belief, there are no strong links between saturated fat consumption and heart disease. Studies that say they show a link were also quite high in refined carbohydrate content. Now, if you're also consuming a high carbohydrate diet, then it would be advisable to limit your fat consumption since it's the combination of high carb with high fat that is unhealthy. :idea:

[ItsTheWooo]

As far as the fruitarians are concerned, a fruit is a PART of the plant, the taking of which doesn't kill the plant (fruits, nuts, leaves). It's all about death (Hindu belief, karma, or something like that.) Any method of harvesting food that kills a plant (root vegetables, and nearly all vegetables) is wrong.

It's not that fruit is more pure, it's that the person doing the eating is more pure.
I think I get it. Fruit is to a plant what dairy (the fruit) and eggs (the seeds/nuts) is to animals... it's produced by them but it really isn't necessary to kill the creature to obtain it.

I can't but help wonder how they could be against dairy but support frutarianism. I know the reasoning is that most of our dairy is obtained via factory farming where the animals are treated cruely, however do they really think that the fruit they eat is gently picked from the plant and the plant is allowed to live? I wonder if frutarians are against dairy in principle. Would they consume animal products (non-flesh) obtained from family farms, or a farm where chickens/cows were kept just for their production and not killed for meat?

[mio1996]

I can't but help wonder how they could be against dairy but support frutarianism.

The answer, of course, is that they have no real logic at all behind their WOE. Unless they are just totally racist, you know. The animals must be spared all pain and suffering, while all manner of plant material must be our slaves, to be raped and plundered at our whim.

To be true to their cause, they would simply stop eating and whither away. Thereafter, however, no one would be around to promote their radical agenda; so I guess eating helpless plants (whose screams for help we cannot hear while they are being ground alive with our evil teeth and digested with powerful acids while they still breathe, but maybe their silence is a quiet permissiveness to their own deaths, to spare their animal brethren from the same grisly fate) is a necessary evil to them.

Some vegetarian will read this now and develop some major food issues!

:D

[Healthman]

So, the people on this board that do paleo really don't drink any mild and eat cheese ? But there is so much calcium, vitamin d,etc in there. How can we replace it then ?

[Dodger]

So, the people on this board that do paleo really don't drink any mild and eat cheese ? But there is so much calcium, vitamin d,etc in there. How can we replace it then ?
Vitamin D is in milk only because it is added as a supplement. Vitamin D is generated from cholestrerol in the skin by sun light.

[Healthman]

OK, OK. Then what all about the other stuff which is in milk that all doctors praise? Why can babies just live off milk ?

[Quinadal]

OK, OK. Then what all about the other stuff which is in milk that all doctors praise? Why can babies just live off milk ?
They can't live off milk from a different species than their own. Well...they COULD live off it, but they would be far from healthy.

[cartmanis]

Hi,

I learned about the paleo diet just yesterday and spend a few hours reading up on this topic. Up until yesterday I have followed Dr. Schnitzers diet which says that whole grain products, uncooked vegetables, berries, nuts and mineral water was the way to go. He argues that we don't have the teeth of a carnivore.

Since our teeth are not made to tear flesh apart humans are not meat eaters and therefore should restrain form eating meat.

Could anybody please comment on this ?
Thank you very much.
What about vitamin B-12? I think the only usable source for B-12 is from animal products, and vegans and stricter diets require supplimentation and fortified products to obtain this. I believe other B vitamins are also more obtainable through animal flesh. I believe we require these to live healthily, so therefore are designed to eat meat to obtain them.

[steveed]

I saw this on a program about a nutritionist making his way across China (which Province I don't remember) Most chinese don't eat any dairy, guess where they get their calcium? Spareribs and greens with fat/gelatin from the spareribs seasoning the greens! The calcium from the bone on the spareribs is very assimilatable as compared with milk which is not. The fat is good for making the nutrients in the greens easily digestible. If you can get raw milk, then drink away, otherwise it's a failed chemistry experiment.

[mio1996]

Besides the coral calcium I take, most of my dietary calcium comes from eating bones. It seems to be working so far.

[MichaelG]

Talking about dairy, babies live on milk because they are mammals and that is what they are designed to do. Mother's milk. This is not to be confused with the stuff at the supermarket. A calf fed on supermarket milk (homogenised, pasteurised) will die.

Central Australian Aborigines never had dairy products until a couple of generations ago, and there are plenty of photos of them taken a hundred years ago. Many of them were big strapping six-footers. Same with the New Zealand Maoris, who did not have dairy. When you see three Maoris coming down the street at you, believe me, you step right off the footpath!

Michael
Australia.

[MichaelG]

me again. About vitamin D. We don't really need to eat it, because as stated above it is generated by sunlight in the skin. After the industrial revolution whole populations didn't get any sunlight, toiling in factories etc, and rickets became a problem. I actually knew kids at school with rickets in the 1950's. Butter happens to be a source of vitamin D but because much of the population had moved onto margarine, in Britain for example vitamin D had to be added to marge. by law, and still is in various countries. The idea that lack of dairy causes rickets etc is a complete nonsense.

MIchael
Australia

[tom sawyer]

Having investigated the vegetarian lifestyle, I'd just like to pass on to you lc folks that the fruitarians are the whackiest of what is a fairly whacky group to begin with. They don't even get along with the other vegetarians. Arguing with one is a waste of time, I know this from experience.

[Healthman]

Somebody said that there was not vitamin D in milk?

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=130

[RCFletcher]

Dear Healthman,

Why are you here? Are you overweight and looking for a diet plan that will help you to lose? Are you really interested in a caveman kind of diet because you are interested in it form a health point of view? Or even a phylisophical point of view?

Or are you just enjoying winding everyone up? We are not experts in nutrition here, we are just a bunch of overweight people who are trying to do something about it and become more healthy in the process.

I'm genuinly curious to know your motives.

[Samasnier]

Fact: fats are necessary for human survival.
Fact: protein is necessary for human survival.
Fact: there are no essential carbohydrates. Sure, fruits and vegetables have some nice phytonutrients and antioxidants, but they are not necessary.

It's clear to me what I should be eating.

Oh, and about milk...I'm pretty sure we're the only mammalian species which continues to drink milk after we're weaned. It's only necessary when we're babies. Besides, assuming we are meant to drink milk, that would be human milk which has a very different nutrient profile from that of cow/goat/sheep milk.

[Lisa N]

Somebody said that there was not vitamin D in milk?

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=130


There is a small amount of naturally occurring Vitamin D in raw milk (roughly 35-70 IU per quart, depending on the fat content of the milk), but considering that the RDA of Vitamin D is 400-600 IU per day, you would have to drink a LOT of unfortified milk to achieve that (how does better than 2 gallons/4 liters a day sound?) which is why commercially sold cow's milk is fortified with Vitamin D. The only reason that commercially sold milk is a good source of Vitamin D is because the milk has been artificially fortified with it.
Much better sources of naturally occurring Vitamin D are: herring, salmon, sardines, and fish liver oil. Smaller amounts occur naturally in eggs, veal, beef and butter. Humans, and some animals, can synthesize Vitamin D in their own bodies if they can have access to adequate sunlight. If you live in a climate that is cloudy for many months of the year or spend the majority of your time indoors, supplementation (or eating foods naturally high in Vitamin D) is necessary to prevent Rickets.
http://vitamind.ucr.edu/milk.html

[Dodger]

Somebody said that there was not vitamin D in milk?

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=130
What that article doesn't say is that almost all the vitamin D in milk is added.

http://vitamind.ucr.edu/milk.html


What is the source of vitamin D in milk?

Milk from all lactating animals, including humans, contains vitamin D3 that has been produced photochemically from 7-dehydrocholesterol present in the skin. In cow's milk it has been determined that the concentration of vitamin D3 in milk provided by the cow is roughly 35-70 International Units per quart as determined via biological assay (12) and approximately 50-80 International Units as determined by modern chemical mass spectrometric procedures (13). However these are rather low levels of vitamin D3 from the perspective of providing the 200-400 IU per day as recommended by the Food and Nutrition Board of the Institute of Medicine (9). Accordingly, as discussed above, the business practice of supplementing cows milk with chemically synthesized vitamin D3 was initiated. At the present time almost all milk sold commercially in the United States has 400 IU of chemically synthesized vitamin D3 added per quart. Any vendor of milk for human consumption containing added vitamin D3 is required by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to include a notice on the milk carton label. Usually this label states "400 IU of added vitamin D3".

[Healthman]

Why are you here?

Because I read about the paleo diet in a magazine.

Are you overweight and looking for a diet plan that will help you to lose?

No, I am not overweight, I am a health fanatic! ;)

Are you really interested in a caveman kind of diet because you are interested in it form a health point of view?

Only from a health point of view. I really think the paleo diet makes sense after what I read. I learned a lot through the discussion in this thread.

Or are you just enjoying winding everyone up?

Absolutely not! I just want to find more facts for the benefit of all. I am really sorry if I discouraged anybody. Really, that is not my intention!!!!
I am asking all these questions to learn more because I believe people investigated a lot already.

We are not experts in nutrition here, we are just a bunch of overweight people who are trying to do something about it and become more healthy in the process.

I understand that. It says at the top of the forum. I really hope everybody becomes healthy.

I'm genuinly curious to know your motives.

Now you know them.
:wave:

All the best from Germany :wave:

[Kestrel]

If you have questions concerning low carb and its relation to human evolution, perhaps you should read "Leben Ohne Brot", Dr Wolfgang Lutz, since he discusses his viewpoints on how people evolved with regards to diet.

[RCFletcher]

Thank you for the full answer Healthman. I wish you luck and increased good health should you adopt a low carbohydrate way of eating.

[steveed]

Thanks for having a go here Healthman, forgive us if we seem defensive sometimes. Out there in the real world we kinda learn to be because of the misinformation everywhere...hope you learned something! I learn something new here everyday! I can't get a straight answer about recipes for land crab though.

Pity.

[sugarjunky]

My doctor tells me we were made to eat both.

[Dodger]

Healthman,

This is an excellent paper on comparative anatomy. Part 5 discusses the teeth.

http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-1a.shtml

[Healthman]

This is an excellent paper on comparative anatomy...

Thank you for that article. I will read it.

[Healthman]

Another think came up in my mind.
If man is omnivore then why can't we just eat anything?
Why should acricultural products be avoided ? OK, potatoes I understand. They can not be eaten raw. Same with grains and beans. But what about all the other stuff? During the last week I wached tons of movies about paleo man.
Why should we eat a lot of meat, fish and eggs? Just because the paleo man did. They didn't have a choice but we do!!

[tom sawyer]

We CAN eat agricultural products. It just makes us obese and unhealthy, because our ancestors didn't adapt to it the way they did meat and gatherable plant materials. Paleo man didn't have a choice, and if we were to keep eating ag products then future generations would be better adapted. That or the ag eaters would die out and be replaced by the low carbers.

Hey maybe the Neanderthals were actually the first ones to dabble with farming?

[cartmanis]

Who says we shouldn't eat the other stuff? Veggies and fruits that can be eaten raw are perfectly palatable, and allowed in Paleo diets. Restrictions are usually placed only on refined foods that only become digesible after some sort of processing. I've never read a LC diet that doesn't suggest eating veggies and some fruit. (Keeping in mind seasonal availability of these to summer months only when paleo man probably put some weight on to help survive the winter)
By volume, 2/3rds of what I eat are veggies.

[Lisa N]

If man is omnivore then why can't we just eat anything?

We can, but that doesn't mean that it's good for us or that we will thrive and be in the best health doing so.
Omnivore doesn't mean "if it's remotely edible, eat it". It means that we are neither strictly vegetarian (subsisting on nothing but vegetation) or carnivore (subsisting on nothing but meat), but that we are adapted to eating both animal and vegetable foods. No, Paleo man didn't have a choice, but looking at most of the choices we have that paleo man didn't have (as far as food goes), it's not necessarily an improvement. Many of the choices available to us today don't even closely resemble what the substance that they are made of looked like when they started the whole process, not to mention the fact that overly processing a food often removes a huge amount of valuable nutrients and damages the few that are left. Ever wonder why bread needs to be vitamin fortified?

Why should we eat a lot of meat, fish and eggs?

Who says we should? You're forgetting other foods that can be eaten raw or unprocessed such as fats, nuts, seeds, fruits and a whole host of vegetables. :idea:

[Healthman]

OK,

I have been eating like a caveman for the exactly one month now.

1) absolutely no bread or grains - zero
2) no milkproducts
3) no potatoes

I feel great but my hair is falling out like crazy. I am really scared. I googled and searched the forum. Apparently there are lots of people with the same problem.
All people say is that this was normal and that any diet would cause this. They say it might be temporary.

I eat 2 eggs every day, one kind of meat, one kind of fish and lots of vegetables and fruits. Also lots of nuts and only drink noncarbonated minetal water.

But I am too scared to sratch my head. I searched the net for "hair loss". On several homepages doctors said, that loosing up to 100 hairs/day was normal.

But I think in my case it must me more like 500.

There must be something in dairy, bread or potatoes that I am lacking now.
I am really scared. Because I am not "dieting" to loose weight. I don't have a gram of fat on my body. Just kidding but my stomach is absolutely flat. I want to make this a lifestyle but already get scared after one month because of this hair loss phenomenon.

Has anybody info based on research ?

[Healthman]

I just read this (http://www.holistic-online.com/Remedies/Hair/hair_loss-diet.htm) article and it scares me.

For men, balding process can be slowed down by taking a low-fat diet. Some scientists postulate that the male pattern baldness is tied to increased testosterone levels during puberty. A high-fat, meat-based diet raises testosterone levels, and that may adversely affect hair follicles. For example, in Japan, male pattern baldness was very rare prior to World War II when the diet was lean and healthy. The Japanese now consume a more fatty, Westernized diet. Baldness is now increasing substantially among Japanese men. Eating low-fat foods may not stop hair loss; but it might help slow down the hair loss.

And another source (http://cbsnewyork.com/lisadrayer/local_story_233090257.html)

[RCFletcher]

Quote: Some scientists postulate that the male pattern baldness is tied to increased testosterone levels during puberty.

Are you going through puberty? I got the impression you were much older!

Baldness may be increasing in Japan but so is their height. Japanese people are much taller than they use to be because they are eating sufficient protein and calcium now. Maybe the men just didn't have the right nutrition to make enough testosterone then!

Baldness may be associated with the absence of lysine; an essential amino acid. Vegetarians who do not eat eggs sometimes suffer premature hair loss...but you are eating eggs so it's not that.

If you are losing from the usual places - your crown and receding at the front the hairloss is probably genetic and you're just due to lose your hair. If it is all over, it could be dietary.

I have heard of people losing hair after going on diets before. It ususally grows back. If you look around this site you will find posts on it.

The only sure cure for male balding is castration by the way...I'm sure you don't want to go that far!!!

Edit:
P.S. I've just been reading up on what is required for healthy hair. It looks like protein is the most important thing. I think your body is just getting used to a better diet and your hair will grow back. Massaging the scalp to increase the blood flow to the hair roots will help. Don't be afraid if it seems to cause more hairs to drop out - you'd have lost them anyway.

[Lisa N]

Hair loss that results from stress (emotional or dietary) usually takes at least 3 months to appear. So....what were you eating like 3 months ago? ;)

http://www.follicle.com/section2/5.html

[Healthman]

I went from one extreme to the other.
Before one month ago I was ONLY eating whole grain bread. It constituted like 60% of my diet. At that time I was reading lots of articles and they all said that whole grain bread was the healthiest you could eat. So I went crazy. I ate Müsli, etc like crazy.

But ever since I stopped eating grain and milk I don't have stomach pain anymore and can sleep much better.

I read that there are some few people that can not digest grains. I might be one of them. But I am not sure if it is the milk or the grains.

There is one really important question I would like to have answered. I love beer. Do I have to quit that,too? Please say "no". :help:

And one other thing. Please don't laugh, but I am not as horny any more.
I used to spend hours and hours watching naked women and porn on the internet when I ate tons of grains. I was really an addiction. I had problems with my girlfriend because of this. I just couldn't stop. Sometimes until 4 in the morning. Downloading whatever I could. The first thing after work was checking for updates. Now I only get horny when I look at a site not just thinking about it. I feel much more freedom now. I know this sounds very sick and pathetic but maybe somebody else had the same experience? Please tell me and be honest. I believe the change of diet has a great impact on the hormones.

I read the lots of carbs increases the insulin level and some igf factor 1 which produces lots of male hormones. I wonder if that can be the reason.

Does a low testosterone level make you loose hair or a high one ?

[RCFletcher]

I went from one extreme to the other.
Before one month ago I was ONLY eating whole grain bread. It constituted like 60% of my diet. At that time I was reading lots of articles and they all said that whole grain bread was the healthiest you could eat. So I went crazy. I ate Müsli, etc like crazy.

But ever since I stopped eating grain and milk I don't have stomach pain anymore and can sleep much better.

I read that there are some few people that can not digest grains. I might be one of them. But I am not sure if it is the milk or the grains.

There is one really important question I would like to have answered. I love beer. Do I have to quit that,too? Please say "no". :help:

And one other thing. Please don't laugh, but I am not as horny any more.
I used to spend hours and hours watching naked women and porn on the internet when I ate tons of grains. I was really an addiction. I had problems with my girlfriend because of this. I just couldn't stop. Sometimes until 4 in the morning. Downloading whatever I could. The first thing after work was checking for updates. Now I only get horny when I look at a site not just thinking about it. I feel much more freedom now. I know this sounds very sick and pathetic but maybe somebody else had the same experience? Please tell me and be honest. I believe the change of diet has a great impact on the hormones.

I read the lots of carbs increases the insulin level and some igf factor 1 which produces lots of male hormones. I wonder if that can be the reason.

Does a low testosterone level make you loose hair or a high one ?


Well, starting at the beginning. Your body has undergone quite a shock so this could explain the losing the hair. If this is so, it will grow back.

You aren't trying to slim, so if beer didn't make you fat before I don't see why it should now. It's not really caveman but what the heck - rules are made to be bent. You might like to try low carb beers. A note; you might get drunk easier on low carb so either watch it or eat something with carbs ie fruit, before drinking.

The good news is that lower testosterone means less hair loss. Women have one fifth of the testosterone than men and they don't go bald (hence my joke about castration!) My libedo (sp) has dropped a little on low carb but not as much as to make much difference to my love life.

It sounds to me that you are already benefiting from the health benefits of low carbing and you could start posting in other parts of the board now - not just the war zone. You'd be made very welcome - especially after your baptism by fire here!

Good luck,
Robert

[fatburner]

. Do I have to quit that,too? Please say "no". :help:

.....And one other thing. Please don't laugh, but I am not as horny any more....


I've been curious about this too. I've often read that men think about sex x times a millisecond... and admittedly it did always seem to be a big part of the male experience. I've been seriously low carbing for over two years now and during that time I seem to think about it less and less. The funny thing is, it's not actually happening any less, but when it does happen it's much better sex. Seems to be a similar process to the food thing. I hardly ever think about food now unless I'm genuinely hungry, but when I do get around to preparing and eating a meal or a snack the whole experience seems to be much more enjoyable. I think it's something to do with having had a perpetual mild sense of blood sugar panic when carbs ruled my appetite. Now it's a kind of detachment from the whole hunger rollercoaster.
It's a truly remarkable sensation because I can still vividly remember what I used to feel like before. I guess that memory will fade with time. Because every day still seems distinctly better in all the criteria that I use to judge my well being, I never feel the urge to carb 'cheat'. I feel so lucky in this respect.

And I wouldn't worry about the hair loss. I think it's a real mistake to try to avoid even touching your scalp for fear of dislodging a few more survivors. I'd massage it as often as you can. Gently at first, but working up to a regular vigorous brush. And get inverted as often as you can. It will feel strange at first. All the blood vessels in your head will benefit, including all the capillaries which feed your hair follicles. After a week you'll hardly even feel the blood rush to your head.

Btw. think how much time and money you'll save by ditching the porn sites.

[ItsTheWooo]

I went from one extreme to the other.
Before one month ago I was ONLY eating whole grain bread. It constituted like 60% of my diet. At that time I was reading lots of articles and they all said that whole grain bread was the healthiest you could eat. So I went crazy. I ate Müsli, etc like crazy.

But ever since I stopped eating grain and milk I don't have stomach pain anymore and can sleep much better.

I read that there are some few people that can not digest grains. I might be one of them. But I am not sure if it is the milk or the grains.

There is one really important question I would like to have answered. I love beer. Do I have to quit that,too? Please say "no". :help:

And one other thing. Please don't laugh, but I am not as horny any more.
I used to spend hours and hours watching naked women and porn on the internet when I ate tons of grains. I was really an addiction. I had problems with my girlfriend because of this. I just couldn't stop. Sometimes until 4 in the morning. Downloading whatever I could. The first thing after work was checking for updates. Now I only get horny when I look at a site not just thinking about it. I feel much more freedom now. I know this sounds very sick and pathetic but maybe somebody else had the same experience? Please tell me and be honest. I believe the change of diet has a great impact on the hormones.

I read the lots of carbs increases the insulin level and some igf factor 1 which produces lots of male hormones. I wonder if that can be the reason.

Does a low testosterone level make you loose hair or a high one ?

The metabolic pathway which involves sugar/insulin also some how affects testosterone production. I'm not science savvy so I won't get into the details, I just know that eating lots of carbs has been shown to artificially inflate testosterone levels. I know that in women who are insulin resistant and/or eating very high carb diets, this can sometimes cause PCOS (androgenizing syndrome which causes infertility). I have PCOS personally, and let me just say I am certain my testosterone levels dropped significantly since starting this WOE ;).

Also about the grains, you are probably dead right they are giving you indigestion. I used to have all kinds of unmentionable problems digesting that stuff... it never even occurred to me that LC made it go away until I had a slice of birthday cake a few days ago. That was an uncomfortable smelly evening :lol:
I personally tolerate dairy very well, with no problems at all, however for you personally milk might be a problem. For me, I don't do very well digesting starch.

[Meg_S]

Just throwing in some observations here. My husband notices a direct link to performance/desire and red meat. If he does not eat meat besides the sandwich stuff or maybe some ground things in lasagne at work throughout the week his libido is ...well... I'm not a happy wife.:lol: When he eats a lot of meat, he thinks about sex more often and his actual physical performance increases 100 fold. He won't eat raw meat, but he's also noticed that it is only undercooked meat which has this effect. Pot roasts and stews don't do it. It's got to be the steak or rare roast beef. Needless to say that I now make a large roast on weekends for him to eat throughout the week ;) And I don't dip into it myself, lol.

Hours and hours on the internet watching porn... it may be enjoyable but it's probably not very reasonable or productive, and I can't see it being a bad thing that you do not crave this "addiction," as you call it.

Do you exercise? A lot of men report feelings of arousal after particularly hard leg workouts. My husband also has a much higher libido when he exercises regularly. Intense exercise in particular, when done properly, can enhance a man's testosterone levels. You dont' need the hours of porn surfing to feel like a man ;) (btw. I'm not anti porn, just going for common sense here)

[dina1957]

Biotin is one of the B-vitamins to support healthy hair grow. If you can't tolerate dairy and wheat, try Biotin supplement.
http://health.allrefer.com/health/pantothenic-acid-and-biotin-sources.html
I've too noticed that low carb makes me shed more hair in general, so I've researched it and it looks like too much grease (animal fat) in deit can be a problem in addition to low dairy intake, so I've just added plain yougurt and cottage cheese to my diet, flax seed oil and eat much less saturated fat. Some hair vitamins can be helpfull, like Hair Essentials, Viviscal, Hair, Skin and Nail, also topical like Revivogen, Nisim shampoo, etc. Good luck,
D.

[dina1957]

And I wouldn't worry about the hair loss. I think it's a real mistake to try to avoid even touching your scalp for fear of dislodging a few more survivors. I'd massage it as often as you can. Gently at first, but working up to a regular vigorous brush. And get inverted as often as you can. It will feel strange at first. All the blood vessels in your head will benefit, including all the capillaries which feed your hair follicles. After a week you'll hardly even feel the blood rush to your head.
It's a common misconseption that you need to rub your scalp and brush your hair to make them stronger, especially vigorous brushing:rolleyes: .You will get a completely opposite effect :lol: Brushing scratches scalp and damages already wheak hair folicles. The less your touch your hair, then better, especially if hair loss is a concern.
My DH has never brushes his hair, just washes, towel dries them, and styles with his fingers. He's in his 40s and still has a full head of hair. He also never uses harsh shampoo either, just a very mild soap;)

[dina1957]

Misconception that people who eat a lot of meat get heart attacks.Michael:
What about iron overload and heart attack connection? It's only about fats, iron plays major role too, especially combined with a high level of vit. C;) .
http://www.icakusa.com/healthcaps/personal/ironheart.html

[dina1957]

While I won't argue that grassfed beef is better for us than grain fed beef (better omega 3 to 6 ratio) and I'd like to note that grass fed beef is available for purchase, I'm curious on what you base the assertion that a diet that is 65% meat and 35% other would kill us in no time? Links? Resources? Can I also point out that a diet that was 65% meat and 35% other would not be 65% protein since meat also contains a certain percentage of fat and not all meats supply the same grams of protein per ounce.
I hope this article will help. I had the same point all along.
http://www.swedish.org/16546.cfm