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clavicula
Tue, Aug-03-04, 01:22
They're popular because they tell people what they want to hear, and they work to some degree because they're based on a half-truth. I debated Dr. Atkins many times before he died, and so I'm very familiar with the Atkins diet. The half-truth is that Americans eat too many calories. One reason is that they eat too much fat, because fat is so dense in calories. The other is that they eat too many simple carbohydrates, and that's the area that we both agreed on.

The problem with simple carbohydrates -- and these are things like sugar, white flour, white rice, alcohol, which your body converts to sugar -- is that you get a double whammy. You get all these calories that don't fill you up, because when you go from, say, whole wheat flour, which is complex, to white flour, which is a simple carbohydrate, you've removed the fiber and the bran. Those ordinarily would fill you up before you get too many calories. You can only eat so many apples. You're going to get full before you get too many calories. But when you remove the fiber and the bran, you can consume virtually unlimited amounts of, say, sugar or white rice without getting full.


So, basically all agree that white rice, white bread, things like that, lay off. Alcohol. All these diet plans, essentially.
If you're trying to lose weight, it's better to avoid or reduce the intake of simple carbohydrates. We agree on that.

The other reason that simple carbohydrates cause people to gain weight, besides the fact that you can eat so many without getting full, is that they get absorbed quickly. So your blood sugar zooms up, your pancreas makes insulin to lower your blood sugar, which is good, but insulin also causes you to convert calories into fat, which is not good. We both, Dr. Atkins and I, agreed that Americans eat way too many simple carbs, and so if you're eating a typical American diet, which is high in simple carbs, and you go on an Atkins-type diet, you may lose weight because you're eating fewer simple carbs.

But you could lose even more weight by eating fewer simple carbs and less fat, because both are the reasons why people get too many calories, and rather than harming your health, you'd be enhancing it by eating the way that I suggest. Because it's not only what you exclude in your diet; it's what you include that's protective. A number of studies have shown that there are substances that have anti-cancer, anti-heart disease, anti-aging properties: things like phytochemicals and bioflavonoids, carotenoids, retinals, isoflavones. There's a whole alphabet soup of these. Where do you find these protective substances? With few exceptions, you find them in fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and soy products and other legumes. To tell people they shouldn't be eating these foods saddens me.

full article: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/diet/interviews/ornish.html

Nancy LC
Tue, Aug-03-04, 08:45
What's half truth about the Atkin's diet? The half truth is in what Ornish claims the Atkin's diet is. Where does Atkin's discourage you from eating vegetables and fruits?

agd
Tue, Aug-03-04, 09:34
Low-fat nonsense. With calorie control, fat is not harmful.

K Walt
Tue, Aug-03-04, 10:14
This is the same old -- thoroughly de-bunked -- stuff from Ornish, a vegan by philosophy, who cringes at the thought of people eating meet. To him, fat is the root of all evil, and every disease known to man.

He enjoyed a cult following for a while, but he's out of fashion now, and hates it.

adkpam
Tue, Aug-03-04, 12:39
I believe his regimen works...IF you can stick with it. I knew someone who was on it for a year, and his angina cleared up. But he couldn't stick with being hungry all the time, and his wife spent all her time making these time consuming meals, and he wanted a glass of wine with dinner...and he had no where to go but off Ornish.

With Atkins he could have similar good results, and enjoy his food. I keep trying to tell him.

BadgerGirl
Tue, Aug-03-04, 12:54
I know I gained weight following Dean Ornish's diet. :mad:

K Walt is 100% correct. Ornish's diet is out of fashion and the only reason his heart attack patients lost weight was because they were on a starvation diet. I was sooo hungry the 2 weeks I was able to stick.

The only thing I remember from reading his book (which has stuck with me for the last 11 years) was his description of letting yourself have a treat. He said to have one spoonful of chocolate Haagen Daz.

Can I just say this: :rolleyes:

clavicula
Tue, Aug-03-04, 13:01
But you could lose even more weight by eating fewer simple carbs and less fat, because both are the reasons why people get too many calories
And, I think this is the reason why people couldn't keep up. Fewer carb makes you just more hungry and you can't do away with your carb addiction.
Low fat: people who start His diet will never feel themselves satisfied.

And He said also that people soud eat those carbs and fat the way He advices.....okay I won't say anything anymore http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/spezial/Sarge/Light.gif

VAgrrl
Tue, Aug-03-04, 13:30
your English is fabulous, clavicula!

sorry, this post is OT but I saw your tag line and just had to say Bravo! :wave:

clavicula
Wed, Aug-04-04, 02:17
Thanks.... :lol: And never mind the OT!

Austrian
Wed, Aug-04-04, 03:47
They're popular because they tell people what they want to hear
very few people want to hear that they must omit candy, ice cream, chocolate, bread, fries, ... from their diet in order to lose weight. Atkins works fabulous, but demands a lot of sacrifices (which are worth it).

woodpecker
Wed, Aug-04-04, 07:11
So, basically all agree that white rice, white bread, things like that, lay off.

WOW - Ornish seems to be changing his tune slightly - does this mean he doesn't back the present food pyramid anymore? Gosh!

alcohol, which your body converts to sugar

First time I have read this. I thought alcohol is processed directly by the liver and actually lowers blood sugar levels - as the body suspends all processing until the alcohol is burned off.

K Walt
Wed, Aug-04-04, 08:50
"First time I have read this. I thought alcohol is processed directly by the liver and actually lowers blood sugar levels - as the body suspends all processing until the alcohol is burned off."

You're right, woodpecker. Ornish's science is a little sloppy. Always has been. He sees what he wants to see. And even then gets it a little wrong most times.

kyrie
Wed, Aug-04-04, 11:04
Works to some degree? Like what-- 100%?

And since when is alcohol a simple carbohydrate? Yes, your body uses it for fuel, but it also uses protein.

DebPenny
Wed, Aug-04-04, 15:29
You get all these calories that don't fill you up, because when you go from, say, whole wheat flour, which is complex, to white flour, which is a simple carbohydrate, you've removed the fiber and the bran. Those ordinarily would fill you up before you get too many calories.
Never worked for me. I could always scarf down just as much brown rice as white rice and have just as much trouble from it and be just as hungry an hour later. I'm really tired of this man and all the other grain pushers trying to tell us that whole grains are good for us. They're just like drug pushers.

Nancy LC
Wed, Aug-04-04, 15:48
Same here, Deb! I might eat a little less of it because it doesn't taste as good, but I'll still be just as ravenous a couple hours later.

cats4jan
Thu, Aug-05-04, 17:09
Low carb worked for me because it still allowed me to eat out all the time. I merely substitute the starch in the dinner I order with steamed vegetables. I do watch my calorie intake also, but when I l/c I can eat more calories and still lose weight.

With low fat, I needed to be on 1000 calories a day to lose weight. Now I watch both carbs and calories and do you know what? The carbs I had been consuming prior to starting this regimen were providing tons of calories - out of balance with nutrition.

The people who say Atkins is not healthy do so out of ignorance of the plan. Most people have formed opinions about Atkins based on heresay. Once you read the book, you realize you do not spend all your waking moments scarfing down bacon, eggs, fatty steak, butter sticks.

Common sense actually enters the picture. If you consume more calories than you expend, YOU GAIN WEIGHT. Well, a great big DUH.

I am so sick and tired of people telling me low carb is bad for me. I now eat a healthy salad and a piece of lean chicken for most lunches. Prior to l/c I was eating french fries and cheeseburgers for lunch. I now eat extra vegetables with my meals - prior to l/c I was eating more french fries, tons of bread and butter, etc. etc. etc. Jeez - common sense anyone?

Turtle2003
Fri, Aug-06-04, 11:09
I'm afraid that Ornish, just like his pals at PETA and the PCRM, are never going to go away. They are Vegans who are philosophically opposed to the eating of meat. No scientific information on nutrition will sway them.

They have had a field day for many years since the advice of most nutrition authorities fit right into their philosophy. Right now they are fighting a desperate battle against the information coming out which disproves the efficacy of their way of eating, and it will take a long time for them to give up on it. Perhaps they will step up their efforts to prove that eating meat destroys the environment. :lol:

(Just wanted to add that I am all for protecting the environment. I just think that the effect of raising animals for meat has been way overstated as compared to the effects of raising grains. Anyway, I didn't want to sound as if I didn't care about the environment.)