Carbohydrate Conundrum ?

[loCarbJ]

Q: I am mixed up -- what type (and amount) of carbs should I consume after my workout? I'm trying to build muscle and lose fat and I've heard and read that I need around 100 grams of sugar after my workout to really recover and grow?

A: Nonsense. One hundred grams of sugar? If you want to do that, eat 5 or 6 Snickers Bars, as they taste the best. I don't buy this 100-g crap. You need slow burn or low glycemic carbs if your quest is maximum muscle gain, even after workouts. The window of opportunity does not mean window of stupidity. If you want to lose fat or build muscle and lose fat at the same time you'd be much advised to utilize a body process known as neoglucogenesis (the utilization of fats and / or proteins instead of carbs or glucose to replenish your glycogen stores.) Your body has the ability to convert fat into glycogen through this process. And if you are trying to burn fat, then this should be your whole goal, and the way to achieve it is by NOT consuming carbs (no more than 25 grams anyway) after your workout. On the flip side, if you ingest a big load of carbs (especially simple sugars) after your workout, any fat burning you stimulated from the workout will be stopped dead in its tracks. Naturally, we feel that the hydrolysates or predigested proteins and BCAA's that you find in Muscle Provider or Mass Aminos, work best. When you eat a large amount of sugary carbs, you release a large amount of insulin. Insulin does it's best to stabilize things by driving sugar, or glucose, into muscle cells (in the very best case scenario). The trouble is, like paper grocery store sacks filled to the breaking point with Twinkies, the muscle cells can only hold so much. Excesses of glucose are converted into fatty acids and triglycerides by the liver and fat tissue. The high insulin and glycogen concentrations induce the production and storage of fat. As if that weren't bad enough, insulin counteracts the effects of Human Growth Hormone (HGH). Although insulin is mildly anabolic (it probably should be called FAT-ABOLIC), HGH is significantly anabolic and promotes fat loss. Of the two, you'd much rather have high levels of HGH circulating through your blood.

From: www.bodymusclejournal.com

J.

P.S. Neoglucogenesis is also known as Gluconeogenesis.

[Built]

There may be some perfectly valid reasons to consume a substantial amount of high-GI carb immediately post lifting, especially if you are a man.

As I understand it, the insulin response is anabolic, and stimulates a testosterone response which is ALSO anabolic.

Slower, low-GI foods, while they may be perceived as healthier, will not clear the system fast enough to allow for the insulin spike to do its good work and instead, may lead to fat storage problems that are less likely to be seen with faster carbs because these slower carbs will not stimulate a significant testosterone response (which raises metabolism because of the anabolic response in the muscles), and because the slower carbs will continue to trickle glucose into the system for hours after being consumed (thus preventing fat-burning).

That's right - that brown rice consumed after lifting may PREVENT maximizing the anabolic response, and may ALSO prevent the body from returning quickly to fat-burning. Since the anabolic response is the part that allows for a continuing higher metabolism, it is possible that this could mean you are only shooting yourself in the foot.

That being said, not all sugars are the same. Typical guidelines suggest fat-free sources of dextrose so as to allow for the fastest and cleanest delivery. The snickers bars would probably be too high in fat and protein to be effective.

[elijaeger]

If you want to lose fat or build muscle and lose fat at the same time you'd be much advised to utilize a body process known as neoglucogenesis (the utilization of fats and / or proteins instead of carbs or glucose to replenish your glycogen stores.) Your body has the ability to convert fat into glycogen through this process.
This is a very inefficient process. It would also be fairly expensive. You would have to eat an incredible amount of protein and fat to get enough usable glucose. Why not just eat carb to refill glycogen?

On the flip side, if you ingest a big load of carbs (especially simple sugars) after your workout, any fat burning you stimulated from the workout will be stopped dead in its tracks. Uh... you want to be anabolic after your workout. You need insulin to drive protein and carb into your muscles.

That article made no sense to me. As Built just mentioned, you want an insulin spike after your workout.

[mps]

I think the part of the article about insulin negatively affecting HGH is worth noting. If you must have carbs post workout then you might want to wait about an hour to allow maximum HGH secretion to occur. Personally, I wait about 45 mins - 1 hour even though I'm eating fat and protein (and a cup of LC veggies).
It has been accepted dogma that eating hi GI carbs and quick protein post workout is helpful... but with knowlege of how that affects HGH... Right now, it's a guessing game about which is more benificial.
I'm putting my money on the HGH being better... but I could be wrong.

You can always have the carbs/insulin spike/testosterone release at another time. HGH is 'only' post workout and during the first 90 mins of sleep.

[Built]

Uh... you want to be anabolic after your workout. You need insulin to drive protein and carb into your muscles.

That article made no sense to me. As Built just mentioned, you want an insulin spike after your workout.

Just to clarify - I do understand this to be true...IF you're a boy.

I DON'T do this, because, as I understand it, I don't have enough testosterone to stimulate a sufficient anabolic response. Women tend to rely more heavily upon GH for our anabolism. I don't take in post workout carbs because in MY body, I get spillover into fat stores, but I DO understand that it is beneficial for the boys.

:)

[tholian8]

Same for me. I eat cottage cheese after workout, and I mix some glutamine powder into water or a sugar free drink. If I take in post-workout carb, it spills over into fat.

But most guys can and should have some carb with the post-workout protein.

[loCarbJ]

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours.

From: www.bodymusclejournal.com

No real need to create an insulin spike post-exercise.

J.

[jagbender]

lowcarbj, I have been working on this delema for a while now.
I am a lot more fat than you. So for me.
I have been doing TKD for a couple of weeks and got the scale moving again. I was doing 25g of dextrose pre workout and no carbs post. I felt weak so I upped the carbs to 50g pre and feel better.
I have done post work out and pre workout. I stay in keto better if I do the dextrose pre workout, utilzing the glucose during the workout.
I had great gains on NHE. I felt great and had good lifts.
I have to do TKD to cut for my body chemistry.
Jag

[elijaeger]

I would argue that a quick insulin spike due to carbs would be anti-catabolic while the presence of amino acids would be anabolic. Providing carbs with protein would limit the amount of protein used by the liver for gluconeogenesis, meaning more amino acids can make it into the system to be used for the muscle repair.

And whether or not the insulin spike is necessary, carbs surely are necessary for optimal glycogen storage.

[loony33]

Sticky: Anyone? This is a sticky, berry berry sticky ;)

Very interesting discussion.

MPS: I believe GH needs a lot of time to do it's magical work. There have been studies that GH like leptin can not give you quick results like insulin does. But it's a very interesting debate.

Elijager: Agreed.

Built: Good stuff. But keep in mind that the anabolic response (from the sugars-aminos) in men is not just from the testosterone.

LoCarbJ: Thank you for initianting this discussion. In fact, the only time for diabetics to be {"normal"} is during this 30-60 minutes post workout window :)

Currently, I am trying to skip post workout high GI/II foods. But in the past, no matter how much dextrose/maltodextrin + whey I had post workout, I never felt it hinder my fat loss, but of course this is anecdotal.

Up to 6 hours post workout, our body's insulin sensitivity is higher and so is our gluscose tolerance. Right after the workout, especially on lower carb diets, our glycogen stores would be very depleted and protein breakdown is at its highest! Bad news, our bodies will find it hard to recover with such a negative "muscle protein balance". Left untreated, our bodies will remain catabolic for hours (2-8), until protein synthesis kicks in and balance is achieved.


If glycogen stores are not replenished under these hard times, expect accelerated protein breakdown. Keep in mind that glycogen brings water in with it aiding in the recovery process even more preparing for protein resynthesis.

How to replenish glycogen stores that quickly? You got it...

Oh, and fats should not be in the post workout mix. First they slow down the absorbtion process, and second, why do you need fatty acids in your bloodstream while cells (including fat cells) are hungry for anything in their way? Amino acids with the sugars will be shuttled in the cells alos aiding the protein synthesis process.

Please, keep this discussion going.

Best,

Loony

[loCarbJ]

Okay, here's a little more:

Comparison of carbohydrate and milk-based beverages on muscle damage and glycogen following exercise.

Wojcik JR, Walber-Rankin J, Smith LL, Gwazdauskas FC.

Department of Human Nutrition, Foods, and Exercise at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, Blacksburg 24061, USA.

This study examined effects of carbohydrate (CHO), milk-based carbohydrate-protein (CHO-PRO), or placebo (P) beverages on glycogen resynthesis, muscle damage, inflammation, and muscle function following eccentric resistance exercise. Untrained males performed a cycling exercise to reduce muscle glycogen 12 hours prior to performance of 100 eccentric quadriceps contractions at 120% of 1-RM (day 1) and drank CHO (n = 8), CHO-PRO (n = 9; 5 kcal/kg), or P (n = 9) immediately and 2 hours post-exercise. At 3 hours post-eccentric exercise, serum insulin was four times higher for CHO-PRO and CHO than P (p < .05). Serum creatine kinase (CK) increased for all groups in the 6 hours post-eccentric exercise (p < .01), with the increase tending to be lowest for CHO-PRO (p < .08) during this period. Glycogen was low post-exercise (33+/-3.7 mmol/kg ww), increased 225% at 24 hours, and tripled by 72 hours, with no group differences. The eccentric exercise increased muscle protein breakdown as indicated by urinary 3-methylhistidine and increased IL-6 with no effect of beverage. Quadriceps isokinetic peak torque was depressed similarly for all groups by 24% 24 hours post-exercise and remained 21% lower at 72 hours (p < .01). In summary, there were no influences of any post-exercise beverage on muscle glycogen replacement, inflammation, or muscle function.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 11915776 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

J.

[loCarbJ]

Here's my take on the issue:

1. Will muscle glycogen be replenished whether or not I consume carbohydrates? Yes.

2. Has there been any study saying the faster muscle glycogen is replenished the better for muscle growth? Not really. They say muscle glycogen resynthesis isn't changed. If we were concerned with replenishing muscle and liver glycogen fast for energy requirements then its a whole different story. We're not concerned with that here. Strickly muscle repair.

2. Is there any benefit of creating a HUGE insulin spike? IMO, no because muscle gylocgen replenishment in its first phase is independent of insulin. After that it's followed by a slower insulin dependent phase. Sounds like low GI would be better for that without the risk of excess glucose being present.


So after lookin at those points deduced from the studies above it seems both methods work. One method just has a bigger risk of creating a nice little tire around my waist :) .

J.

[fridayeyes]

One thing for us chicks to remember - the vast majority of most medical/sports bio-chem studies are done on MEN. Siad research may break down when applied to non-atheletes, women, those with insulin resistance, etc. I'm not at all saying the research is invalid. But I *AM* saying that depending on who or what you are in comparision to the study subjects MAY have a dramatic affect on whether or not you will respond similarly.

Cheers,

Friday

[fridayeyes]

Here's my take on the issue:

1. Will muscle glycogen be replenished whether or not I consume carbohydrates? Yes.

2. Has there been any study saying the faster muscle glycogen is replenished the better for muscle growth? Not really. They say muscle glycogen resynthesis isn't changed. If we were concerned with replenishing muscle and liver glycogen fast for energy requirements then its a whole different story. We're not concerned with that here. Strickly muscle repair.

2. Is there any benefit of creating a HUGE insulin spike? IMO, no because muscle gylocgen replenishment in its first phase is independent of insulin. After that it's followed by a slower insulin dependent phase. Sounds like low GI would be better for that without the risk of excess glucose being present.


So after lookin at those points deduced from the studies above it seems both methods work. One method just has a bigger risk of creating a nice little tire around my waist :) .

J.

My own take is a little different.

1) NO - when I am am lifting hard and doing 3x 20 mins cardio, I will bonk my cardio once a week unless I do a carb up meal, and this is WITH 40 g of dextrose sandwiched around my lifting. If I am bonking, it means that the slow glucogenesis from fats/proteins cannot keep up with my expenditure. This holds true up to about an ECC of 70-ish. At 100 g ECC, I will not have a midweek bonk, but at 100g ECC, lifting on dextrose is kinda pointless, too. Also, with the exercise regimen I just specified, I will remain in ketosis even at 150-200 g ECC.

2) depends - faster may not equal more growth directly, but the cortisol spike needs to be countered within half an hour after you stop exercising, and slower carbs MAY keep you out of ketosis longer. So, while fast may not be more anabolic, it may be better for those who want fat-loss at the same time.

2b) Huge insulin spike probably isn't good, but how do you compare the spike from 20-40 g of fast dextose vs the spike from 100 g of slow, complex carbs?

Also - refilling liver glycogen is counter productive to ketosis. Those who bungle a CKD and take in too much fructose - which loves the liver - find that it may take 2-3 days to get back into ketosis as opposed to 24 hrs for those who avoid fructose. Liver glycogen, as far as I have read, is slow release, not fast. The whole point if using dextrose on a TKD is to *avoid* the liver because dextrose is preferentially absorbed into intramuscular stores.

Cheers,

Friday

[loCarbJ]

Oh, that reminds me!

There was a great article that I read on the effects of pre-workout carbohydrate and glycogen depletion. I have been trying to find it, again. It stated that regular pre-workout carbo-loading tended to create a dependance on the carbo-loading. That those who carbo-loaded pre-workout tended to experience a bonk with a greater frequency, as their training progressed. By comparison, those athletes who trained without carbo-loading, were able to continually decrease the frequency of their bonking, as they trained.

As someone who does a LOT of endurance events, this is of big interest to me. I don't mind paying a higher price up-front (IE: having reduced performance initially), in turn for greater long-term performance.

I will try harder to find the exact article.

J.

[Dodger]

I have always been baffled by the research that has been done on exercise recovery nutrition. One problem that I have with then is that almost all are done on people who are on high carb diets to begin with. If your body is used to having lots of glucose to burn, then it may require large amounts later. On the other hand, if you are buring mostly fatty acids, then your recovery requirement might be different.

I figure that some food with protein, some fats and a little carbs would be best, so I eat some nuts after an exercise session. It seems to work well for me as I have not found that I do not recover within 24 hours.

[elijaeger]

1. Will muscle glycogen be replenished whether or not I consume carbohydrates? Yes.
How does this happen without carbs? Can you really expect usable amount of glucose from gluceogenesis alone?

2. Has there been any study saying the faster muscle glycogen is replenished the better for muscle growth? Not really. They say muscle glycogen resynthesis isn't changed. If we were concerned with replenishing muscle and liver glycogen fast for energy requirements then its a whole different story. We're not concerned with that here. Strickly muscle repair.
What about the protein window? isn't the first 60 minutes crucial to get amino acids driven into your muscles?

I agree that low GI carbs in the hours after workout would full glycogen, much more slowly of course. In fact, what I generally do is eat high GI right after workout, then move down to low GI for the remainder of the evening.

[loony33]

Eliejaeger, I second your questions.

LoCarbJ, there are tons and tons and tons of studies done on post workout nutrition. This is why so many post workouts drinks are out there. One can easily find studies to oppose what the study you posted says.

It is true glycogen will ultimately be replenished. But why wait (about 24hrs or so). And while you wait, the body is in catabolic state. Plus your muscles have a capacity of about at least 250g carbs, so I believe it is a little hard to spill into fat - also the liver holds about 100 (I think).

It is true most these studies supporting PW carbs are done on men. But, sex hormones aside, it still makes sense that the fastest way to aid recovery and fill up muscle glycogen to resstore protein sunthesis is having high GI carbs. Right?

[fridayeyes]

I'd be intgerested in seeing that, if the bonk is during the workout where they carb-loaded - and TKD is not the same as a carb load like runners tend to do - or if they bonked doing somehting else.

Thanks,

Friday

[Built]

It is true most these studies supporting PW carbs are done on men. But, sex hormones aside, it still makes sense that the fastest way to aid recovery and fill up muscle glycogen to resstore protein sunthesis is having high GI carbs. Right?

Well, again, for men, yes. But for many women (I would be tempted to say MOST women), no. I can't. When I've tried, I gained fat - and I wasn't taking in all that much post workout carb.

40g PRE lifting, I'm great. 40g POST lifting, I get spillover into fat stores. One of those frustrating lessons I had to learn the hard way.

I DO realize there's more than just the testosterone at work in men - we BOTH get GH. But men have bigger muscles and bigger livers. I'm willing to bet money this is at least PART of the reason men often can (and should) take in post-lifting carbs. I just know that I really can't.

[TrailRunR]

This is a great thread!

In my case, I'm trying to drop some excess fat via TKD. I do not believe it is possible to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time so I'm not looking to the absolute maximum anabolic processes. Staying in ketosis is my number one priority. I consume 25-50g of carbs pre weight workout so I can work very hard in the gym. After the workout, a serving of low carb whey protein is my meal of choice. The increased insulin spike from the pre-workout should still partially be around. All of that protein should push amino acids into the muscles for recovery. And whey protein has little fat, which reduces the risk of slowing down digestion of protein and carbs. Finally, without carbs, there is almost no risk of getting kicked out of ketosis.

[fridayeyes]

Built - I hear ya. I gotta have my pre-lifting dextrose. Keto lifting can be a little wussy, and the dex adds about 10% or so to my lifts. On my next cycle, I'm ditching the post-wo carbs and just having the pre. But - do you think fast or slow protein post-WO? I love my ABB Pure Pro - 40g whey protein, 2 g of carbs, BCAAs etc. Could do chicken or cottage cheese, I guess, but the Pure Pro is so easy, and easy means I *do* it. :D

Another Q - since female growth is more tied to GH than testosterone, maybe we would have better results with the before-bed glutamine hit? I was doing 20-25 g of glutamine and my trainer recommended upping it to 40, with at least 10 just before bed. What do you take?

Cheers!

Friday

[Built]

TrailRunR - whey protein kicks me out of ketosis if I take it in post-lifting. Small molecule, small particles, no fat - it's just too fast for me and it glycolyzes too well. I hear you on this point though: The increased insulin spike from the pre-workout should still partially be around. I figure I've still got a bit of carb leftover after training, and this little bit gets used up pretty fast after I lift (especially on leg-day!).

Fridayeyes, re glutamine, I take 5g pre and post lifting, and 5g at bedtime.

[fridayeyes]

Hmm, remember all those 'genetic freak' gains I was talking about? I was doing 10 pre-lift and 10 before bed, plus an extra morning dose if I was really sore. Now I'm upping it to 40 g....

Might be worth a tweak or two. :)

Oh yeah, and for those of you who take BCAAs - is there any reason to take them at a certain time? Like with your post-WO meal or before bed?

cheers,

Friday

[Built]

Glutamine is the most abundant amino acid in ... well, pretty much every protein-food that we consume, actually. It's the most abundant amino acid in mother's milk. It's in practically everything - meats, milk, spinach, soy, parsley... your body makes it's own glutamine.

I just don't see how taking that much extra of a substance that's in practically everything and that your own body makes could account for the kinds of gains you experienced. Like I've said, I've never even heard of men taking AAS getting the kinds of gains you've described. I think this one is strictly "mother nature's lab" - your body. I don't think exogenous glutamine could account for it.

My .02

[fridayeyes]

Hmmm, I guess I owe mother nature a few then. We'll see what my next challenge brings. I should still be in the newbie window, but I'll be happy if I just maintain my mass. Since I'm already freaky, best not to set expectations too high. :)

Cheers,

Friday

[loony33]

Good stuff,

Built, let's talk about your spill over into fat stores.
Did you gain fat-fat or could it have been bloat from the extra hydration of the cells? Just wondering cause knowing how hungry our cells are for glycogen post workout, I can't understand why ladies would get fat spillover. I agree you have less glycogen capacity, but I can't see why 40g won't be all consumed in glycogen repletion. Weird.

But hey, last year I read a study, that says pre-workout nutrition is more crucial than post-workout nutrition (I forgot if it was measuring recovery or not). But the results were that if you have both, pre and post, u get the best results. If you get pre, you are better off than if you get only post. So, pre kicks post's butt. But both are optimal for recovery.

Good stuff :)

[Built]

No, it wasn't bloat. Trust me - having been fat for 20 years, and having had hormonal cycles for 30 years, I know the difference between bloat and fat. I know if my weight FLUCTUATES up, then drops a few pounds it's water. If it creeps up steadily, and I put on 2-3 pounds in a year without my clothes getting tight, it's muscle. If it creeps up 3-4 pounds in a month and doesn't drop, and my clothes get tight, it's fat.

This is NOT unusual for women. I've actually come to accept this is true for my body as well having grudgingly had to accept what I had read on some of the BB boards regarding women and post workout carbs. For many women, post workout carbs are a big no-no unless we're okay with fat gain.

I'm not.

And I recover REALLY well with no carbs at ALL after working out. Remember, I'm over 40, and I train HARD. Carbs are NOT necessary for recovery.

[loony33]

For many women, post workout carbs are a big no-no unless we're okay with fat gain.

I'm not.


LoL --- :)

[elijaeger]

Built - I totally believe you that it is your experience that you gain fat with Post WO carbs. But like Loony I want to understand why a little better.

In my understanding, after a workout your body is a)glycogen depleted and b)insulin sensitive. So muscles are hungry, eating quickly digestible protein and carb will drive aminos into the muscle and begin the refilling of glycogen.

So, why would one gain fat in this situation? Eating fat in your post workout together with carb might do that. Also, what you eat for the 24 hours after your workout might affect this. Let's say you eat your Post WO meal of low fat/high carb. Then 1 hour later you eat a huge keto meal. Then I can see, the fat in your keto meal would be stored since your body has already been "fed" by a carb/protein meal.

I don't know if that makes any sense, just trying to hypothesize.

[Built]

Built - I totally believe you that it is your experience that you gain fat with Post WO carbs. But like Loony I want to understand why a little better.

In my understanding, after a workout your body is a)glycogen depleted and b)insulin sensitive. So muscles are hungry, eating quickly digestible protein and carb will drive aminos into the muscle and begin the refilling of glycogen.

So, why would one gain fat in this situation? Eating fat in your post workout together with carb might do that. Also, what you eat for the 24 hours after your workout might affect this. Let's say you eat your Post WO meal of low fat/high carb. Then 1 hour later you eat a huge keto meal. Then I can see, the fat in your keto meal would be stored since your body has already been "fed" by a carb/protein meal.

I don't know if that makes any sense, just trying to hypothesize.


I would love to know WHY.

At the moment, I'm just happy to know what not to do.

It was a DEVIL to figure out, because the conventional approach has been to do so. But a lot of other women lifters have this problem, so fortunately, I was able to test it out on me, and bingo - started slowly dropping fat again.

[elijaeger]

Built - I'm assuming your fat gain was when your were bulking/caloric surplus.

For those of us in a caloric deficit trying to burn fat/maintain muscle, the effect of the post WO carb wouldn't be as adverse because your body simply can't store fat at the end of the day without the extra energy.

For you bulkers, I guess your mileage may vary on how you feed yourself after nutrition.

[Built]

Built - I'm assuming your fat gain was when your were bulking/caloric surplus.


That would be negatory. This was while doing TKD with post-workout carbs. When I switched to pre, I started dropping fat again.

[loony33]

I would really like to know the physiology behind that. I believe you Built, but I am very curious to find out why, like Elijaeger...

That is something for me to look into.
Built, also, fat-gain aside, do you agree that pwo carbs for women (as well as for men of course) yields a far more faster effective recovery and shifts the body out of the catabolic state?

Also, just curious, what kinds of carbs do/did you take post/pre workout. Maltodextrin-Dextrose with whey? How much whey (or hydrolystate?)

One last question, have you tried splitting the 40g preworkout dose into 20 pre and 20 post?

Best,

Loony

[fridayeyes]

This is really good to know - dropping post WO carbs, I mean. As for deficit and "you shouldn't be able to gain" - well, this is possibly part of the curse of being female. LOTS of women will tell you that they can *gain* fat on 1500 cals or sometimes even less - esp if it's a low fat, high carb diet. And society and their doctors like nothing better than to tell them they must be cheating because the 'laws of thermodynamics' say it's impossible. Well, guess what, that law was written by a man too. :)

Sometimes no matter what the research says, you have to try things to see how they work on your own particular body.

FYI - I was doing a 20/20 split, then a 25/15, then a 30/10. I'm going to try 30/0 and see how that goes. I'll also see if low fat cottage cheese vs whey makes any difference for me post-wo.

Cheers,

Friday

[loony33]

Hey Friday,

The law of thermodynamics also proves wrongs in men under certain circumstances. Our biological system is far more complicated than the bomb-calorimeter. I totally agree with you, nutritionists and doctors are so in love with this law. But things are changing a little these days.

You know it is hard to tell the difference in switching the post-pre ratio. I hope you are giving yourself enough time to evaluate the observed results, and that you are keeping everything else constant.

I would be very interested to see how these different ratios worked for you. Keep us updated.

Loony

[Built]

I would really like to know the physiology behind that. I believe you Built, but I am very curious to find out why, like Elijaeger...

That is something for me to look into.
Built, also, fat-gain aside, do you agree that pwo carbs for women (as well as for men of course) yields a far more faster effective recovery and shifts the body out of the catabolic state?

Also, just curious, what kinds of carbs do/did you take post/pre workout. Maltodextrin-Dextrose with whey? How much whey (or hydrolystate?)

One last question, have you tried splitting the 40g preworkout dose into 20 pre and 20 post?

Best,

Loony

I tried all KINDS of splits. I tried dextrose, I tried grape juice, I tried whey (usually something like 35g of protein from whey) with and without dextrose. I tried splitting it.

I noticed absolutely NO improvement in recovery. I recover VERY fast, and that's eating cottage cheese post workout now. And I put on mass REALLY well without post workout carbs.

I don't put on mass any better, or enjoy any better strength gains when I do post workout carbs - my last adventure with this was last fall. I decided to go on a bulk for EITHER until New Year's OR 10 pounds, whichever came first. I stopped it for New Year's, about 8-10 pounds up. I didn't notice any greater recovery or faster strength/size gains - all I did was miss my abs and couldn't fit into a bunch of my tighter clothes. I figure I MIGHT have gained 1.5-2 pounds of muscle for all my trouble, and the cutting afterward has been a BITCH.

No thanks. I won't try this again, and I REALLY tried.

It was only through reading through some of the other boards and women's threads that I discovered that this is a problem for a LOT of women. I can't even have WHEY after lifting unless I really fatty it up - I stick to solid slow real food now.

[loony33]

...I can't even have WHEY after lifting unless I really fatty it up - I stick to solid slow real food now.

Wow. Do you know of any guys who have this pwo-nutrition problem as well or is it just for girls based on your readings on boards?

Thanks,

Loony

[Built]

A lot of low-carbing guys have the "glycolyzing of whey" problem, from what I've read. But the post WO "nutrition problem" (ie nothing fast that will stimulate insulin after lifting) seems to be particularly problematic for women. I started a thread that TrainerDan was kind enough to turn into a sticky (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=194433) on it in the Exercise forum:

[elijaeger]

The law of thermodynamics also proves wrongs in men under certain circumstances. Our biological system is far more complicated than the bomb-calorimeter. I totally agree with you, nutritionists and doctors are so in love with this law. But things are changing a little these days.

We were agreeing up until this point. I would love to know under what circumstances you could gain fat while eating maintenance or below. The only thing I can think of is if you weren't eating enough protein, your muscles could be targeted for energy and dietary fat stored instead. If this were the case you would be losing strength in the gym.

If you are only eating 1500 calories a day (and say that is your maintenance) and you are training, I argue it would be impossible to gain any kind of body mass, muscle or fat.

If you are losing muscle mass at the same time, I can see your BMR going down slowly and your fat mass gaining as a result of continued too high calories.

I think one of the key missing points is that carbs themselves are not usually stored for fat. Fat is stored as fat, only under fully fed circumstances when carb oxidation is turned on high, does de novo lipegenesis start, say under a heavy refeed day.

[loony33]

Hey Elijaeger, some people with low metabolisms can gain fat on 1500 Kcal/day. Our bodies can modify themselves to prevent us from dying.

Moreover, if you are severely glycogen depleted and eat above normal calories - generally - (at least for guys) even with calories as high as 5000/day, you won't put on fat.

These are only two cases, and even if you don't loose LBM, your hormonal system will put a break on your metabolism. So, the laws of thermodynamics are still held, but energy intake isn't the only measure to go by.

Hope that helps.

[Built]

Great post loony - I was trying to come up with some way to explain what was in my head, and now I don't have to.

;)

[elijaeger]

Hey Elijaeger, some people with low metabolisms can gain fat on 1500 Kcal/day. Our bodies can modify themselves to prevent us from dying.
Agreed, of course. I was hypothesising that given a maintenance calorie amount, you would not be able to gain fat if energy in=energy out regardless of nutrient type.

Moreover, if you are severely glycogen depleted and eat above normal calories - generally - (at least for guys) even with calories as high as 5000/day, you won't put on fat.
Which is truly amazing and wonderful.

I will maintain that, if eating at maintenance or below, putting on fat should be impossible. My only exception would be if your muscles are being used for fuel in which case you would lose considerable strength in the gym. So, if that is the situation, you probably need to up your protein to prevent catabolism of your muscles.

[ManoOPUS]

i think Elijaeger's point of "if eating at maintenance or below, putting on fat should be impossible " may be a true rule of thumb BUT that's figuring without any outside factors like the examples Looney referenced to.....and Looney's statement of "Our biological system is far more complicated than the bomb-calorimeter." is dead on! Science can't test under all the circumstances or even come close to what the human body is capable of dealing with. both you guys are correct, i just think you've gotta factor in the complexity of the human body! :D

[loony33]

I will maintain that, if eating at maintenance or below, putting on fat should be impossible...

The problem is that it keeps on changing, and the more you eat below maintenance without "resetting" your metabolism, the lower the maintenance caloric level will get. That's one reason I suspect bodybuilders eat at maintenance or above all the times except when contest season is close by.

[elijaeger]

The problem is that it keeps on changing, and the more you eat below maintenance without "resetting" your metabolism, the lower the maintenance caloric level will get. That's one reason I suspect bodybuilders eat at maintenance or above all the times except when contest season is close by.
Yeah that is a valid point. I think we can do a lot of damage to our metabolisms if we eat too low. Isn't that the point of the refeed, to give a metabolic boost?

I completely agree that the body is more complicated than what a chemist calculates what amount of energy needs. Protein for example, is incredibly inefficient as an energy source. Whereas fat and carb are readily used as fuel.

I think we took this thread into a much different focus and starts to go into territory that I certainly couldn't understand. I for one will continue to use post workout carbs and those who prefer not to, can hopefully be successful that way.

[Built]

I for one will continue to use post workout carbs and those who prefer not to, can hopefully be successful that way.

Again, you're a boy, and like a LOT of boys, you find that this works. Preference has nothing to do with it - it's just a matter of efficacy. Believe me, I would LOVE to be able to take in post workout carbs - the theory is all there, they taste good, and still, fat spillover. Dammit.

I don't care WHAT genius came up with your diet - if it's not working for YOU, well, ya gotta change it. I don't do philosophies - I just do what works.

[elijaeger]

I don't care WHAT genius came up with your diet - if it's not working for YOU, well, ya gotta change it. .
Or on the flip side, if something is working, stick with it until it stops working.

I think some women could probably do fine on carb refeeds, some maybe not. Some guys might not tolerate the refeeds either. It is probably an individual response and people will all perform better on what works for them.

[Built]

Oh, TOTALLY. It seems to be very individual. Too bad there's no way to tell ahead of time. And virtually every trainer I've ever known has told me to do this, so I know it really does work well for (probably most) men, and I'm sure SOME women. Diet can be so TRICKY!

[elijaeger]

Built,
I've been a little obsessive about understanding the biochemistry here.... so forgive the question: what TYPE of carb were you refeeding with during the weight gain? I was reading up on ye ole liver, and once liver is full of glycogen, incoming fructose will be converted into triglycerides (at a lowish rate, but still).

On a slightly related note, this helps explain why high fructose corn syrup ties into the obesity epidemic. Fill up liver glycogen very quickly = turn on fat storing mode.

[Built]

I was trying dextrose, in a whey shake. I also tried slower carbs at one point. I tried a BUNCH of ways. I tried to avoid fruit, though.

And yes, good old high-fructose corn syrup...AMAZING the harm that stuff has done...

And no problem on the question. I don't know WHY it's such a problem for so many women - I just know that it IS.