too much protein?

[lené]

I read both the original PP and the PPLP, as well as about a million other LC books. I've taken what seemed like good info from most of them. From PP, I got the very strong impression that protein is extremely important to not only health, but safe weight loss. I liked the emphasis on fiber and on having small amounts of yoghurt/kefir daily in the GO diet, so I try to get at least 25-30 grams of fiber a day, and I have 1/2 cup of plain wholemilk yoghurt most days. Etc.

But I have been reading other info now that has me puzzled and concerned that I need to tweak my diet a bit. So, thought I'd come to this forum for advice since protein is key to my befuddlement <g> One thing that has me puzzled is that I have been reading that too much protein can actually slow or stall weight loss, and that one should eat more fat as opposed to more protein in order to get sufficient calories. I've only recently started trying to use fitday, but according to them, I've had between 76 and 112 grams of protein on the 3 days I posted there. I'm not sure whether this is enough or too much. <g>

The other bit of info that has me puzzled is that I've seen several places where it was advised to eat around 10 times your weight in calories a day. Yikes! I weighed 209 this morning, and the highest I've been able to squeeze out in calories is around 1480 a day, and that was with adding a Tb of oil to this and a Tb of oil to that, not something I normally do. My normal intake would be around 1280 to 1380 a day. I could get more if I added carbs (which I don't plan to do -- in fact, I'm trying to cut them back a bit, to get less than 40 a day.) I could add more protein, but that contradicts the advice not to eat "too much" protein.

You see the dilemma? I'm baffled! And here I thought I was gettin' the hang of this woe. LOL

Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

Lene'

[nicolasix]

Wow, that sounds like my problem/question, too -- is there something about protein that stalls weight loss? Is high-fat going to burn more body fat than high-protein? And what about building muscle: can high-fat do that, or is high-protein needed?

Eeek!

[lené]

Nicolasix, I sent you a pm. If you want to "talk" more, come visit my journal, because the pm has a word count limit, so I have to be succinct, which isn't one of my strengths. <g>

Lene'

[BawdyWench]

There's a woman named "Orang" who posts on the daily thread frequently (though she's lately been MIA) who can explain the "excess protein turning to glucose" thing.

Basically, that can happen, but only in the presence of excessive carbs. If you keep your carbs down, lots and lots of protein won't be a problem.

For example, my minimum protein requirement is something like 96 grams per day. I can eat more than that and still lose weight, as long as I keep my carbs low. A lot of us with the same MPR eat as much as 150 grams per day with no adverse effect.

I wouldn't worry about it. Nor would I worry about the 10 times your weight thing. Just follow the ATkins plan as written or the PP plan as written, and you'll be fine.

Check out the thread "Doing it right" (or something like that). I attached some charts to one of my posts there that should help you. I'm down almost 40 pounds now and never worried about too much protein.

We evolved eating primarily protein, after all.

[lené]

Thanks!
I recently got back out my PPLP book, and am in the process of reading through it again. I think it is pretty compatible with the Four Corners book, which I also like. I'm trying to stop fretting -- I think it's getting in my way! <g>

Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it!

lene'

[Built]

Actually, on higher carbs, you are LESS likely to glycolyze protein. But on low-carb, if your fats are too low relative to your protein, you'll glycolyze it and it will stimulate an insulin response. I have to be careful with whey protein because of this - it's a fast protein, and if I have it after lifting, unless I fatty it up or have a spoonful of natty PB with it, I get an insulin response from it.

Keto diets are protein sparing. This means you don't actually NEED as much protein as you would on a high-carb low fat diet, because you AREN'T glycolyzing so much of it. I try for about 1 gram per pound of my "ideal" bodyweight. Maybe a bit more, but not much.

I weigh about 140 pounds. I lose weight if I eat less than 2000 calories a day. Why? Because I'm muscular.

That's why I lift weights. I LOVE to eat. A lot.

:)

[mcsblues]

Actually, on higher carbs, you are LESS likely to glycolyze protein. But on low-carb, if your fats are too low relative to your protein, you'll glycolyze it and it will stimulate an insulin response. I have to be careful with whey protein because of this - it's a fast protein, and if I have it after lifting, unless I fatty it up or have a spoonful of natty PB with it, I get an insulin response from it.

Keto diets are protein sparing. This means you don't actually NEED as much protein as you would on a high-carb low fat diet, because you AREN'T glycolyzing so much of it. I try for about 1 gram per pound of my "ideal" bodyweight. Maybe a bit more, but not much.

Umm. could you try explaining that again? Those two statements appear to be contradictory. I was under the impression that gluconeogenisis of protein was stimulated in the absence of dietary glucose/carbs in order to produce glucose for those bodily processes that demand or prefer glucose over ketones. In other words, if anything you may need a bit more dietary protein on a keto diet in order to avoid catobolism of muscle - particularly so if you are trying to build lean body mass.

Cheers,

Malcolm

[Built]

Well, I could easily be wrong, I'm not a biochemist, but as I understand it, if you keep your fats high, you retain a fat-burning metabolism, as indicated by the presence of ketones. If you keep your fats low, you don't. In the absence of sufficient fat, and the presence of ample carbs, your body will preferentially burn carbs. In the absence of sufficient fat, and the presence of ample protein, your body will break down some of that protein and metabolyze it as carbohydrate. This has been my experience. When my fats go too low relative to my protein, I drop out of ketosis, and my cravings for carbohydrates returns - to me, always an indication that I have stimulated an insulin response.

How low is too low? Well, for me, I need about equal grams of protein and fat or I drop out of ketosis when I'm on my low-carb days. So if I were to consume 200g protein with 200g fat, this would be 2600 calories - WAY too much for me on a day to day basis, especially since I rely on my low carb days as low-calorie days on my carb cycle.

On about 120-140g protein, I'm well nourished, and my cals are under 2000 for the day. No loss of muscle mass so far.

I first started to notice that this happens to me if I have a low-carb, fat free whey shake post lifting. I've actually had to stop this because the whey, a fast protein, with no fat to slow it down, was glycolyzing. (many women cannot take in post-lifting carbs without fat spillover. I'm one of them.) I do real food post-lifting now - cottage cheese with avocado, for example. Protein and fat.

On a high protein diet, without sufficient fat to "protect" it from glycolyzing, you WILL glycolyze some of it. How much is anybody's guess. But I find the same carb cravings returning when I have tried this.

I don't eat a LOW protein diet. But I don't try for 1.5g/pound bodyweight like I used to because it was making me fatter. When I dropped it down to 0.9-1.0g/pound bodyweight, I was fine.

I hadn't known about this until recently when I went to the ckd website. It was the first time I ever heard bodybuilders being advised to LOWER their protein intake.

And I put on and retain muscle mass quite well this way.
http://forum.lowcarber.org/gallery/data/508/53195BackOrangeShirtSmall.JPG

[mcsblues]

Well the Eades recommend a minimum of 0.9g protein per pound of lean body mass for athletes such as you, so that much we agree on anyway :)

Cheers,

Malcolm

[Built]

Hey, who really knows anyway - I know what happens in MY BODY because I pay attention. And I know that low-carbers often have trouble with whey because it glycolyzes so easily in us.

A girlfriend of mine is a vegetarian, and this doesn't happen to her when she takes whey - quite the opposite - she's full for HOURS.

I often read in bodybuilding mags how high-protein will digest so slowly, it will curb hunger, etc etc etc. It never did this in me - it just made me HUNGRY all day, with KILLER sugar cravings. So maybe it's a syndrome X thing. I don't know. I just know what knocks me out of ketosis, and it's when my fats are too low relative to my proteins.

Cheers. And thanks for your post. Who knows - maybe someday we'll get a good answer on this one, other than something I've noticed in my body. Hardly scientific, but at least a tiny piece of the puzzle, maybe.

:)