a serious question....

[nocarbkat]

I am posting this question here, not that I want to be critical or start an arguement, but I thought the question may offend some people. I was in the bookstore today and picked up a copy of the okaniwa (spelling wrong I know) diet and just read the cover, and began wondering....why do the countries with the lowest percentage of obesity seem to eat higher carbohydrate diets? I mean, look a the chinese, they eat rice, noodles, meat...all kinds of things pretty low fat (I am talking traditional chinese, not the resturant stuff we get here) and they seem to enjoy decent health well into old age, same with the japanese. One could argue genetics, but are their genetics really that different from ours? And take the french, they eat bread, wine, pastries and don't have a problem like the US does...

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts or input on this????? It really is making me re-think the whole low carb thing......

[AFwife]

Have you been to China or France. They aren't all thin I assure you. :lol:

Anyways I think it's there style of living too that keeps some of them slim. For example, alot of the Orientals, walk alot and ride bicycles. And the French too. I see them walk every where or riding there bikes all the time. Ever notice in the states how Europians always have back packs on them. They walk every where. Exercise is the key.

IMO and from what I've seen anyways.

[tcastro]

Carbs didn't make most of us fat. Our lifestyles made us fat.

Cutting the carbs is simply one way of curbing our diet and changing our lifestyle. Low fat works too, but I much prefer low carb.

[Hellistile]

1. Asians may eat rice 3 times a day but in small quantities at each meal (not a plateful heaped with pasta like you see people here do).
2. Asians do not have any other what I call real solid sources of other carbohydrates besides rice and vegetables - cereal, bread, pancakes, potatoes, corn, beans (such as baked in sweet sauces - although they do use some kidney beans) porridge, muffins, dairy, donuts do not play a very large part in their traditional diets. If they do use pasta it is paper thin in which bits of fish, pork or chicken are wrapped or ramen noodles or even green onion cakes (pancakes), but again in small quantities if they do use them.
3. Asians eat a lot of animal and fish , saturated fat, and pork fat.
4. Asians eat traditionally fermented soy, not the crap they make everything with here (and they certainly don't do soy milk, soy cheese, tofu burgers, weiners, etc) and they eat it in very small quantities as a condiment.
5. Asians, with the exception of MSG if they do use it, do not use as much processed food as we do.
6. When north-americans sit down to a meal, it can contain several high-carbohydrate foods at one sitting, for example: corn, potatoes, gravy, bread, rolls, peas besides some meat, whereas Asians do not. It's either rice or noodles but never mixed.
7.Vegetables used are never potatoes, corn, seldom peas in the quantities we use. They use low-glycemic veggies, lots of mushrooms, bok choy, spinach, brocolli, etc.
8. My ex-mother-in-law was Asian. Everything was made from scratch, lots of vegetable, chicken, pork, fish soups and stews, lots of low-carb vegetables, steamed rice (not fried) and fruit.
9. One thing I also need to add is that Asians do not use any bread products of any kind. Even their noodles are usually not made with traditional grains.

While Asians may have less cancers of one type, they have higher cancers of another type for example thyroid.

As for the french, they may eat lots of bread and pastry but it's purely made, with real butter, grain, cream not frankenfoods. They eat pure natural foods, saturated fats, fresh vegetables and no junk foods, although they are starting to. They are also more physically active.

[ccarter25]

I work in a lab with a bunch of chinese people.. they eat rice and veggies like zuchini and some kind of meat every day. They never eat sweets.

I, on the other hand, love(d) a good Ho Ho!

[Hellistile]

They never eat sweets.

Sorry, I missed that, but it's true. If they eat sweets it's very rarely, not an every day thing and more in tune to traditional holidays, such as moon cakes or some sort of kidney bean concoction wrapped in large leaves and baked.

Another thing I forgot that is very important is that their traditional beverage of choice is always tea, be it green, jasmine, whatever, to which sugar or cream is NEVER added. No soft drinks or fruit juices, heavily laden with sugar.

[LucyLucy]

Also look at portion size, in the North American Super-Size Me mentality, it obviously shows, and even though other countries do eat carbs (and healthy ones at that), the portion sizes are 1/4 of what we scarf down here in this country.

LL

[Ghuldeen]

I think another big difference is the amount of refined sugars in the North American diet.

Mike

[Lisa N]

I think there are a lot of misconceptions regarding what traditional diets in Asian contries look like as well as the quantities consumed. Here are some links that may be of interest, particularly of note is that while they may have a lower incidence of obesity than Western countries (although that too is beginning to change), they have health problems of their own as well:
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/food_in_china.html
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/japan.html
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/thailand.html
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/korean_beef.html

Keep in mind, too, that even Dr. Atkins readily admits that those with more active lifestyles can tolerate a higher level of carb intake and in many Asian countries, the idea of "leisure time" is a foreign one. They are very active physically, much more so than in most Western countries, but even so Asian countries, particularly China and India, are currently leading the world in new cases of diabetes being diagnosed yearly.

[SadLady]

I can tell you people are from the good old USA. Remember also, that in other countries you do a lot of walking which is the normal transportation. Cars are a luxury of this country and the sedentary life style that we have here. Every time I move and live in another country I lose weight without dieting. Last time I lost 120 lbs eating great desserts and junk, however, I walked everywhere I went. Great excercise !

[SeeMyself]

I was in the bookstore today and picked up a copy of the okaniwa (spelling wrong I know) diet and just read the cover, and began wondering....why do the countries with the lowest percentage of obesity seem to eat higher carbohydrate diets? .

Hi,

This post caught my attention, there was an article in our Sunday paper, "Okinawa's eat wisely and live longer"

This is quoted from my newspaper, if I had a scanner, I would scan, I just typed the first part of it, quite interesting.

Can you envision yourself at 100, completely independent, lean, energetic, and without cancer, Alzheimer's, heart disease, high blood pressure or frail bones? Sound like a pipe dream? It's not.

The island of Okinawa, off the coast of Japan, is home to elders who have enjoyed the longest, healthiest life expectancy in the world. Heart disease is minimal, breast cancer rare, menopause a breeze and untreated, prostate disease mostly unheard of. This information comes from the Okinawa Centenarian Study, started in 1976, by Dr. Makoto Suzuki and supported by governments, foundations and universities around the worlds. This work has produced more than 200 scientific papers.

Also, here is the website for the diet:

http://okinawaprogram.com

http://okinawaprogram.com/okinawa-diet/okinawa_diet_plan.html

I find it interesting, if I can get the rest of the article from our paper on here I will, too much to type....

[MyJourney]

In Okinawa, where the average life span for women is 84 years—longer than in Japan—the inhabitants eat generous amounts of pork and seafood and do all their cooking in lard.22
Franklyn, D, Health, September 1996, 57-63

Just an interesting quote
http://www.westonaprice.org/know_your_fats/skinny.html

[LisaAC]

Also, look at the ingrediants they use. Chinese use very little wheat in their cooking, unlike Americans. And what wheat they use is different than the refined wheat we use here. They also use lots of rice flour and other kinds.

They eat much less than Americans do. Many chinese ride bikes, which burns off the extra calories, as does walking. Their culture also has a set of standards to go by which means they don't sit in front of the tv, if they even have a tv, and stuff their face. They eat as a family, chat, and enjoy their meals like America USED to do in the 1940'2 before fast food really got to the point it is now.

Asking questions is good, that's how you learn, but I really have to wonder...are you really asking questions to learn? Are you having doubts yourself? If you are, I suggest you do a little internet research. There are some good studies out there that may provide you more information on low carb diets.

[nocarbkat]

thank you everyone for your thoughtful responses and comments...

lisaN, thanks for all the great links, very helpful

seemyself, thanks for the links as well..

lisaAC, yes, it is to learn, the subject of food and cultures has always intrigued me. Especially since the "low carb craze" has really took off in this country.

once again, thanks everyone..

[Quinadal]

I work in a lab with a bunch of chinese people.. they eat rice and veggies like zuchini and some kind of meat every day. They never eat sweets.

I, on the other hand, love(d) a good Ho Ho!

Ok, that's not true. I can several purely asian sweets that are very popular.

Pocky(cracker sticks covered in candy coating), Yan Yan(cracker sticks you dip in candy coating), Conjaku gels (almost like jello), Colon (crackers filled with chocolate), rice candies which are very sweet and lots of others.

[LilaCotton]

One thing to keep in mind about any of us is the fact that our heredity plays a dramatic role in the way our bodies process carbohydrates. Many, many of us descend from races that ate very little in the way of carbohydrates and much more protein and fats.

And one thing to keep in mind about many Asian people is that it's hard (although not impossible) to become over-weight when one is malnourished. Their size is a direct correlation to what types of food they have eaten for centuries. Now that more American cuisine is being introduced into Asian countries, these people are not only becoming rounder, they're also growing taller.

The food they've eaten in the past has kept them small. I doubt they're going to stay that way with the rush of American corporations in line to build fast-food restaurants in their neck of the woods.

[Lisa N]

Ok, that's not true. I can several purely asian sweets that are very popular.

Pocky(cracker sticks covered in candy coating), Yan Yan(cracker sticks you dip in candy coating), Conjaku gels (almost like jello), Colon (crackers filled with chocolate), rice candies which are very sweet and lots of others.

Quinadal, those may be popular here, but they are definitely not traditional fare. Those that are still following diets that closely resemble those of their native lands are generally not prone to eating a high amount of sweets and as the article above stated, they are generally reserved for holidays and celebrations, not on a daily or weekly basis.
Something that I don't think has been mentioned yet is that in countries where the cost of food is high (and the cost of sweets and candies even higher) many families and individuals can't afford to eat a lot of nutritionally poor food when they can barely afford to feed themselves the basics. I also think that peoples of Asian countries tend to be more aware of the nutritional value of food and the importance of it as a culture than others. That may be changing with the influx of Western influence and Western foods, especially among the younger generations, but along with that I think there will also be a change in the health statistics of those countries as well.

[LisaAC]

The average paycheck in China, if you're working in a factory, is only $20 a month. For other jobs, I'm not exactly sure. I know that in the factory jobs, they provide a meal for the workers. It's usually rice and veggies. They may get meat once a week.

[Jeffrey_]

One HUGE thing I didn't see anyone mention: There is a difference between brown rice and white rice. One is whole grain and bulky, the other is over-processed like all the other crap in the grocery store.

[nolin nae]

i live in south korea and have been here for a little over three years so i might be able to add some insight. first thing of note, older koreans are thinner in general, but there are a lot of fat kids. i teach english in a university here and i wouldn't say the students are exactly thin. high carb snacks have hit hard here, coupled with lifestyles that are becoming increasingly similar to those in the west and it's starting to have an effect. as atkins notes in his book (based on cleave's work), there is typically a lag of about twenty years from the adoption of a western diet to the emergence of problems that are associated with those diets. diabetes is becoming progressively more problematic amongst koreans. while it's true that older koreans are relatively thin and they do eat a lot of rice (white rice, btw, not brown) they don't eat a lot in terms of calories and they are very active.

[dazzlin182]

Carbs didn't make most of us fat. Our lifestyles made us fat.

i agree - its lifestyles (e.g. unhealthy eating and sedentary lifestyle, ppl here just dont exercise as much or not at all)

the links below might help you understand (that we have obesity problem too here)

http://nutriweb.org.my/article.php?sid=69

http://nutriweb.org.my/article.php?sid=68

we used to be thinner but more asians actually are - getting fatter these days due to many reasons e.g. western and local fast food joints are all over the place (ppl no longer cook - they just love those pizzas, burgers, chicken, steak, hotdogs etc - these foods are alien to some asians so they love them)

some of the traditionals asians may stay thin but most urban asians? nope - they got FAT.

[Wildcard]

so it boils down to this

They eat less and burn more than us.

That was not so hard was it?

[DietSka]

At 1200-1400 cals/day, lowish fat, I was maintaining at a chubby, hypoglycemic weight of 136 pounds. At 2000 cals/day, lowcarbing, I weigh 116 and look and feel perfect. I was also more active back then, not so much right now due to long work hours. So, you see, eating less and burning more is not necessarily THE answer. :D And I'm not alone.

[Hellistile]

In the most recent omnivore.com newsletter by Anthony Colpo appears the following:

Higher Animal Protein, Animal Fat, and Cholesterol Intakes reduce risk of stroke among Japanese men and women.


I recently wrote elsewhere that if I had a dollar for every time I've heard someone cite the Japanese population in support of the low-fat, hgh-carbohydrate paradigm, I'd own a different color Lamborghini for each day of the week.


The Japanese eat a low-fat, low-protein, high-carbohydrate diet and - so the story goes - that's why they enjoy such low rates of cardiovascular disease. This line has been repeated so often that many people simply take it for granted.



Pity that it's a complete load of bullpucky.


Noting that "a traditional diet that is poor in animal products is thought to explain the high rate of stroke in Asian populations", researchers recently set out to examine the effect of a diet rich in animal protein, animal fat, and cholesterol on the risk of ischemic stroke mortality in Japanese adults.


Over 3,700 Japanese men and women aged 35 to 89 years were followed from 1984 to 2001. During this follow-up period, 60 deaths were attributed to ischemic stroke. A high intake of animal fat and cholesterol was significantly associated with a reduced risk of stroke death. The risk was reduced by 62% for those in the third tertie of animal fat intake compared with those in the first tertile. The risk of death from infarction was reduced by 63% in the high cholesterol consumption group, compared with the low consumption group.


Bottom line: "This study suggests that in Japan, where animal product intake is lower than in Western countries, a high consumption of animal fat and cholesterol was associated with a reduced risk of cerebral infarction death."


Down with noodles, up with pork ribs!


Source: Sauvaget C, et al. Animal Protein, Animal Fat, and Cholesterol Intakes and Risk of Cerebral Infarction Mortality in the Adult Health Study. Stroke, 2004

[zedgirl]

This is an excerpt from an article called ‘Adventures in Macro-Nutrient Land’ by Sally Fallon and Mary Enig. The basic point is that the reason we are seeing Okinawans reach a ripe old age is because they grew up using lard etc. What would be interesting is to see what is happening to them in another 50 years.

“Many have been misled by claims that the diet on Okinawa—where there are 34 centenarians for every 100,000 people, more than triple the US rate—is a low-calorie, lowfat diet consisting of "soy, vegetables and small amounts of fish, meat and rice." This is an example of dieticians "painting the white roses red" because the earliest article on the Okinawan diet described it as "greasy." Lard was traditionally used in cooking on the island and although it may not be used as much today, the Okinawan centenarians were using lard most of their lives, lives that began long before the USDA decided to tell us all to eat canola oil”.