The Hunter-Gatherer Diet?

[Wildcard]

Hi,

I am not starting any trouble, but I guess some may find it annoying, but I find it hard to believe that the hunter-gatherer diet was meat and vegetables, and harder still to believe that our bodies are still programmed for those days.

I dont have any information on hunter-gatherers, but from what I have seen on the discovery channel about existing subsistence tribes in africa and South America, most of their diet comes from carbs, even though they remain rail thin.

[Vanity3]

More info about Hunter/Gatherer diet here (http://www.panix.com/~paleodiet/)

[nowonder]

Hi...

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. They are eating nowhere near the amount of carbs that the normal american diet has. I have never seen a hunter gatherer tribe eating any of the bread or refined sugars that make up the normal western diet.

Most of the low carb plans do resemble the hunter gatherer lifestyle. Portions of meat and vegetables, and some fruit thrown in (especially in the later stages of the diet). The highly processed high-carb foods lead to weight gain.

--nw

[Hellistile]

Here are some paleo links for you to peruse in your spare time to acquaint yourself with the hunter/gatherer way of eating:

http://www.rawpaleodiet.org/
http://www.beyondveg.com/cat/paleodiet/index.shtml
http://www.healingcrow.com/dietsmain/dietsmain.html
http://www.theomnivore.com/index.html
http://www.naturalhub.com/opinion_right_food_for_the_human_animal.htm
http://www.naturalhub.com/opinion_right_food_for_the_human_animal_evolution_of_the_human_diet.htm

Articles
Ray Audette article
http://www.sofdesign.com/neanderthin/observer.html
http://www.mercola.com/2003/oct/22/paleo_diet.htm
Balzer Article
http://www.earth360.com/diet_paleodiet_balzer.html
www.westonaprice.org/know_your_fats/oiling.html
http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/10/7-248323.html

It is well documented that all hunter-gatherer tribes that survived into the last century ate some form of animal product, be it grubs, insects, worms, more conventional meats, fish, full-fat milk, blood, definitely eggs of all types, etc., and most certainly did not shy away from saturated fat.

[Wildcard]

Hi...

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. They are eating nowhere near the amount of carbs that the normal american diet has. I have never seen a hunter gatherer tribe eating any of the bread or refined sugars that make up the normal western diet.
--nw

I dont doubt that they are eating nowhere near the amount of carbs the normal american diet has. The normal american diet has gross amounts of everything, including protein.

I bet that they eat far more carbs than most any low-carb plan though.

[Hellistile]

Wildcard, you stated initially that you know nothing about the hunter-gatherer. We provided you with links so that you could update your knowledge. You have not had time to check them all out. Please review all the links provided before making anymore comments on a subject you freely admitted you know nothing about.

[Wildcard]

hi Hellistile,

I have read the links. They say that prior to 10,000 years ago, man subsisted on meat and vegetables.

I hear what they say, I just dont agree that it is necessarily true, and I agree less that our bodies are still programmed for those days.

[Hellistile]

I am not afraid to state that you couldn't have possibly read all the information on all those links, because I am almost intimately acquainted with all of them. To read all of them thoroughly would take several days if not weeks.

[mps]

I dont doubt that they are eating nowhere near the amount of carbs the normal american diet has. The normal american diet has gross amounts of everything, including protein.

I bet that they eat far more carbs than most any low-carb plan though.

You might be right... but it most likely depends on the geography and time of year. Eskimo's may have eaten 100% fish, people in other regions might have eaten more than 50% carbs. But that would not even have been modern sugar laden fruit. Probably mostly vegetables. I think that we can agree that they would have eaten meat at every opportunity. Sometimes this was a lot, sometimes they were not so lucky.
There is plenty of evidence to show that Atkins style dieting is healthy. It is like we are eating semi-paleo... except that we are always lucky. Always have meat and vegetables. If there is evidence that shows there is a better way of eating, I'm open to it. I just haven't seen it yet.

[Wildcard]

hellistile,

I did not read ALL the links, obviously. I read enough to get the gist.

MPS,
I dont dispute that Low-carb is healthy. I dispute that is based on hunter-gatherer lifestyles. Can you imagine how thin they would have been on a LC diet, and how quickly they would have died if they did not get meat for an extended period?

ps. Eskimos have some carb-laden berries.

[mps]

Why would we still be adapted for that way of eating...?
Being a Biology teacher I have the urge to answer this question.
Lets say the first hominids (our ancestors) existed a couple million years ago.
Those who were best able to survive, thrive, and reproduce the most... on the foods available (meat and veggies)... are our ancestors. Those who were not suited for it left less offspring. This process is never ending. So for all that time those individuals that were best suited for the foods available were the ones that had the most reproductive success. Thus we are the decendents of those that did the best when eating those foods. We evolved to thrive on those foods.
Only 10,000 years ago agriculture started. As long as eating this food does not reduce reproductive success... it could not have caused fast evolution. We eat it.. it's not healthy... but we still do ok. But the point is that we evolved to eat a different diet, and that is the one are bodies are designed to eat.
Sure, if we were all forced to eat high refined carb foods for a million years... we would evolve to be good at it. The people alive a million years from now would be the decendents of those of us who could best tolerate it and therefore have have the most reproductive success. They would have inherited the genes of the people who can tolerate high carbs.
Not enough time has gone by for this to happen.

[AdyPose]

Those folks over in South America have to HUNT for any food they obtain, thus burning lots of calories. No running to the Piggly-Wiggly to pick up dinner!

[Wildcard]

Hey MPS,

thanks for taking the time. your post makes a lot of sense and is very plausible.

[TheCaveman]

I think year-round vegetables fools a lot of us into thinking that SOMEHOW, edible plants had to be available for the whole year. But consider where you live: How easy would it be to grow food all year long? Maybe pretty easy.

So think of it this way: How easy would it be to grow food all year long but only having the water to irrigate them for three months out of that year? A little harder.

So: How easy would it be to grow food all year long if you hadn't invented food growing yet?

Food growing is 12,000 years old, tops. Less than one half of one percent of our genetic history.

And the plant physiologist will tell you that ALL plants flower in one season, fruit in the next, and are dormant in the next. Plants CAN'T produce food all year long.

So what? Cavepeople could just get all the nuts off the tree when they were there and bury them, or something.

Systematic food amassing by means of intenstive collection is 22,000 years old, tops. Still, less than one half of one percent of our genetic history.

Genes don't change that fast. That's why we are having these sorts of health problems. Sure, our immune systems may have had time to adjust, but not the genes. Anyone who studies the matter freely admits that we are paleolithic people trapped in business suits.

Once we understand this, most of the riddles of human health are easily solved.

[CindySue48]

I dispute that is based on hunter-gatherer lifestyles. Can you imagine how thin they would have been on a LC diet, and how quickly they would have died if they did not get meat for an extended period?

ps. Eskimos have some carb-laden berries.

Yes Wildcard, many did die.

During the time of year that berries, root veggies, fruits, etc were available, they were eaten....and probably eaten with no restrictions. I have no doubt that some figured out how to make flours and bake them at an early time....but by far the majority of their food.

Meat was, hopefully, always available. That was the staple of their diet. Food was dried and stored for times when food wasn't readily available....like winter. Fruits, some veggies, and meats were all dried and stored for the leaner times. And if they didnt' get enough to store....and/or weren't able to gain enough fat to live on.....they did die.

If we truely ate like the hunter-gatherers, we'd eat meats all year round, but likely less in the winter. And we'd only eat seasonal veggies, fruits, nuts, etc. Very little grain would be used....and this would be wild, which is so much different from what they grow now.

[nowonder]

I bet that they eat far more carbs than most any low-carb plan though.


I don't know that to be true, but I would bet that they burn a lot more energy on any given day. I don't see many hunter-gatherer tribes driving to work, or sitting behind a desk most of the day.

--nw

[LondonIan]

Wildcard - I'm wondering what you thought the main sourse of carbs would be?

In fact we do not know what a paleo diet was really like. We can only guess based on the availability of foodstuffs, some paleontological evidence (e.g. signs of protein poisoning in early hominds, indicating a switch to high protein diets) and antatomical evidence.

[mio1996]

Hi,

I am not starting any trouble, but I guess some may find it annoying, but I find it hard to believe that the hunter-gatherer diet was meat and vegetables, and harder still to believe that our bodies are still programmed for those days.

I dont have any information on hunter-gatherers, but from what I have seen on the discovery channel about existing subsistence tribes in africa and South America, most of their diet comes from carbs, even though they remain rail thin.


Maybe you are speaking of african tribes who farm yams? They are not hunter-gatherers. Hunter-gatherers are people who only hunt animals and gather wild plants for food. The main way for them to get food with enough calories to survive on would be to kill and eat high-fat animals as the major source of food. A tribe would starve before they could gather enough roots and fruit for a meal, since they would burn more calories digging the roots and picking leaves and fruits than what those foods contain.

[black57]

Okay, let's say that the hunter-gatherer is not programmed in our bodies. We would have to look for the cause of diabetes, high blood pressure and high cholesterol in other places.

Now, we know that in order to control diabetes without meds, we need to target carbohydrates. When we target carbohydrates, we balance our insulin levels. When we balance our insulin levels we increase our glucagon. Whe we increase our glucagon we can lower/control/balance our lipids. From looking at it from this angle it seems crystal clear to me that our bodies are programmed for low carbs. Besides, a hunter gatherer concept of carbohydrates does not include white bread or Ho Hos and it is actually these that has, largely, contributed the the disease of obesity in this country.

[Jeffrey_]

Gee, ever think that people in hunter/gatherer societies had very hard lives and burn all the calories they can get?

And those whose bodies were not up to par, just up and died. And those who did live, died at an early age?

[Hellistile]

If you read the links provided earlier you will find that hunter-gatherer societies that lived into the 20th century had elder groups within their tribes that lived to very ripe old ages and without the diseases of modern man. Nevertheless, the bones of hunter-gatherers thousands of years ago show that they may have died at earlier ages, but they still did not show any signs of diabetes, arthritis and other diseases of modern man that are appearing now in children. They did not die from any of the diseases we die from now, but from infection, accident, childbirth.

[black57]

From what I read about many cultures of Native Americans on the Eades website, they, once, had a diet high in protein. They gathered vegetation but their main food source was meat. The older the meat the better, because of its fat content. Jerky, not M&Ms, was "invented" to give them energy for those long hunting days. This diet has been credited with giving them very strong bones which is why they had the remarkable bone structure. They had an exemplary immune system and healed quickly from dibilitating wounds. Obesity, high blood pressure/arteriosclerosis, diabetes was non-existant. These health factors changed, however, after their woe was nearly banned by the US government. When they became consumers of pastas, rice etc from government handouts their health went downhill. This includes the fact that they had a dramatic rise in diabetes, heart-related diseases and diabetes. I would imagine that their immune systems also suffered.

[Wildcard]

I guess the theory of a hunter-gatherer diet would be believed by those who also believe in evolution. I personally dont believe in evolution (I dont hate on those who do), and I believe that the main change in diet that causes most of these diseases (obesity, high blood pressure, and other diseases) is simple over-eating. Mum used to say too much of anything is bad.

[black57]

I think of a hunter-gather diet as one where the cultures have no access to a John Deere or Sickle and the have to hunt their meat and gather their vegetation for food. America is very young in comparison to the age of the Native American culture, which existed ages before colonials settled. However, their culture was one that relied heavily on hunting meat and gathering vegetation. Some had tools for planting, however, they were not in the business of agriculture. As-a-matter-of-fact many did little to prepare for the cold winter months and managed to survive quite well at this time.

Also, as I had mentioned previously, due to the increase of diabetes and heart disease the Native Americans are seeking legislation that will allow them to return to their "primitive" WOE.

[TheCaveman]

I guess the theory of a hunter-gatherer diet would be believed by those who also believe in evolution. I personally dont believe in evolution (I dont hate on those who do), and I believe that the main change in diet that causes most of these diseases (obesity, high blood pressure, and other diseases) is simple over-eating. Mum used to say too much of anything is bad.

Heh. You know, it's fun sometimes to see people unburdened by science. And you know, we could all worry a lot less if we just forgot all this scientific mumbojumbo, ignored all this physical evidence, and just do what mum says.

Wildcard, it's people like you that make me think I'm working myself up over nothing. Believing in evolution has just served to confuse me. And I see in your profile that you haven't read a single diet book. That's a good way to save time and money!

Although you are right about one thing, that we can totally agree with you on: The main change in diet that causes obesity, high blood pressure and other diseases is IS simple over-eating of carbohydrate.

So cheers and welcome.

[TheCaveman]

Also, as I had mentioned previously, due to the increase of diabetes and heart disease the Native Americans are seeking legislation that will allow them to return to their "primitive" WOE.

Hey Black, I'm in the legislation business and a big fan of traditional diet. What have you heard?

[black57]

Caveman, I agree with what you say about the burdons of science. It is beneficial, but to often it is influenced by government and big business and doesn't always work to our benefit. My information on Native Americans comes mainly from this site:
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/native_americans.html

I also learned a few things about the life of these people from my college history class from 2 years ago. You will find info on the legislation contained in the last three or four paragraphs. But the research in this informative writing knocked my socks off.

[LondonIan]

Although you are right about one thing, that we can totally agree with you on: The main change in diet that causes obesity, high blood pressure and other diseases is IS simple over-eating of carbohydrate.

So cheers and welcome.
That's way too much science mumbo-jumbo for me. I'm a great believer in traditional values so I'm getting the local shamen round to chase out the 'fat demons'. A weekend of being beaten senseless with sacred clubs followed by treppaning using a bow-drill and flint should see me right as rain. ;)

[Wildcard]

Heh. You know, it's fun sometimes to see people unburdened by science. And you know, we could all worry a lot less if we just forgot all this scientific mumbojumbo, ignored all this physical evidence, and just do what mum says.

Wildcard, it's people like you that make me think I'm working myself up over nothing. Believing in evolution has just served to confuse me. And I see in your profile that you haven't read a single diet book. That's a good way to save time and money!

Although you are right about one thing, that we can totally agree with you on: The main change in diet that causes obesity, high blood pressure and other diseases is IS simple over-eating of carbohydrate.

So cheers and welcome.

Hi, that was a very nice post. Even though it was totally in my face, you said it tactfully and humorously. Well done.

I have read diet books. I just have not read any low carb diet books. period.

[mcsblues]

That's way too much science mumbo-jumbo for me. I'm a great believer in traditional values so I'm getting the local shamen round to chase out the 'fat demons'. A weekend of being beaten senseless with sacred clubs followed by treppaning using a bow-drill and flint should see me right as rain. ;)

Hey! There's an idea - and just think how much you could charge for the experience! :)

Cheers,

Malcolm

[Lisa N]

I have read diet books. I just have not read any low carb diet books. period.

Wildcard...just an observation here, but if you're going to a) follow a low carb diet and/or b) discuss one, it might benefit you to actually read about the science behind them first, not just what the media has to say about it.
It seems, as someone else has already observed, that you don't completely understand or appreciate the role that insulin as well as several other hormones that are directly influenced by insulin, have on weight gain and loss.
If I might suggest, Protein Power by Drs. Dan and Mary Eades gives an excellent overview on the subject. ;)

[black57]

Lisa N, I could not have said it better myself. The media has made this diet the controversey that it is. I love the Protein Power. I have more knowledge about the human body than the la dee da media and perhaps as much as some doctors.

Wildcard, if you do not read any low carb books the only thing that you will be is clueless. You cannot agree or disagree on something that you know nothing about, in all respect.

Black