"Girl Love Handles: The backlash"

[gotbeer]

GLH: The backlash

Savage Love, May 12, 2004

by Dan Savage

http://www.theonionavclub.com/savagelove/index.php?issue=4019

http://www.theonionavclub.com/images/383/avc_savage71.jpg

You had to know letters would pour in from women pissed off at your blatantly fat-phobic, sexist response to Butter With Your Rolls, the man who thought "girl love handles" created by low-rise jeans were "revolting." You agreed with him "100 percent," and said that women "should get the obesity epidemic under control" if we want to "flounce around in belly-and-backside-exposing pants."

Where the holy f*** do you (or any skinny white boy) get off saying what women are or are not allowed to wear? Face the facts, King Savage: Fat women are f*****g sexy. Here's some more news, Dan, for you and all your fat-hating, sexist buddies: Women's bodies belong to women and women only. F*** you and your fascist beauty standards. Why the f*** should we care what you think? Contrary to popular belief, not every woman wants to bow down and worship at the temple of your penis.
Fuck All Totalitarianism

As much as it might pain you, FAT, you need to go back and re-read BWYR's letter and my response. (http://www.theonionavclub.com/savagelove/index.php?issue=4017) He didn't say that only fat women looked bad in low-rise jeans. He pointed out that only a "select few" women look good in low-rise jeans, and begged "women who are overweight, tubby, fat, or just not properly proportioned to stop wearing jeans that show off or create rolls!" Once more, for emphasis: Most women don't have the kind of bodies that look good in low-rise jeans, fat or not.

In my response to BWYR, I stated that I agreed with him 100 percent—low-rise jeans are a visual blight. They look terrible on most people, particularly obese people. But pointing out that something isn't flattering isn't the same thing as saying that the person wearing the unflattering garment is unattractive or has to worship at the temple of my penis. God forbid. Women can, of course, wear whatever the hell they want. It's a free country. But that "free country" shit goes both ways, FAT. BWYR and I are free to think that low-rise jeans look terrible on most people and say so in public.

Finally, I didn't say that women have to get the obesity epidemic under control. I said that "we" do—all of us, male and female.

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In anticipation of a GLH backlash, I'm writing from the ranks of the non-low-rise-wearing masses to thank you for the sound fashion advice. There's nothing misogynistic in telling it like it is. I've never found being a big girl a significant hurdle to getting dates, getting laid, or getting engaged, actually, to a hot, smart fella. It's simply been a matter of working what I've got, rather than working what I've got too much of, or trying to work what I wish I had. Your advice is analogous to telling a friend she's got spinach stuck between her otherwise lovely teeth.
Fan In Portland

Thanks for sharing, FIP.


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Take a silly, tossed-off response to a letter about "girl love handles," mix in not one but two mentions of the obesity epidemic, and publish. The result? Thousands of women all over the country developing eating disorders, bulimia, and anorexia, all because they don't fit some arbitrary standard of beauty. Nice job, Dan.
The Harm U Do

It's an article of faith that we can't talk about how much crap we're eating, or how awful we look in low-rise jeans, without inducing eating disorders in millions of silly and suggestible young women. But in his brilliant book Fat Land: How Americans Became The Fattest People In The World, Greg Critser blows this b******t argument out of the water. "[Does] fat awareness somehow [cause] eating disorders? ... The data—and the experience of physicians, health workers, and others in the field—consistently indicate otherwise," he writes. Our obsession with anorexia, Critser continues, not only covers up America's true eating disorder (we eat too much and we're too fat!), but it also hamstrings efforts to combat obesity, a condition that kills almost as many people every year as smoking does. Eating disorders, by way of comparison, lead to only a handful of deaths every year. If you're truly concerned about the health and well-being of young women, THUD, worry more about the skyrocketing rates of obesity-related diseases in young people (like Type-2 diabetes) and less about the imaginary link between anorexia and my low opinion of low-rise jeans. Jeez!


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FAT!SO? says f*** you!

It saddens me to know that you continue to cling to your fat-hating prejudice. The same attempts were made to stuff queers back in the closet, just as you are now attempting to stuff proud fat rebels (and our low-rise jeans) back in our closet. F*** you! You're not required to like us or look at us or f*** us, but you are required to stay the hell out of the way of our liberation! My health is not in danger from my weight. (I eat right, exercise, and enjoy excellent health as a happy fat chick, no thanks to you or the fat-hating medical establishment!) However, your health may be endangered if you persist in promoting weight-based prejudice. Really, all that stress every time you step on the scale can't be good for you!

Flabulously!
Marilyn Wann (www.fatso.com)

There's a difference between hating fat people, Marilyn, and thinking fat folks don't look so hot in low-rise jeans. (And there's nothing "fat-hating" about being realistic about the health consequences of obesity! Please!) And frankly, I don't see what's so freaking "rebellious," you fat rebel you, about wearing ill-fitting pants. Who decided that low-rise jeans were fashionable, anyway? The same fashionistas who set the beauty standards that are such a torment to fat people everywhere. It must please these evildoers to no end to see fat women all over the world squeezing into pants that look awful on them. A true fat rebel would ignore the low-rise dictates of the fashionistas and wear pants that flattered her larger body, leaving the low-rise pants for the cigarette-smoking, chardonnay-swilling, solid-food-avoiding fashion victims out there.


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Please tell BWYR that he doesn't know what the f*** he's talking about. I love women with a gut, and love seeing their bare midriffs! Seeing a bit of gut hanging out of low-rise jeans makes me very hot!
Loves Soft Rolls

And what if seeing naked, cute, skinny guys bent over at the waist with their wrists tied to their ankles made me very hot? (Strictly a hypothetical, Mom, I swear.) Should the fact that I find this sight arousing compel others to have to view it, too? Or should I be respectful of others and go to gay SM parties and/or Iraqi prisons administered by the U.S. Armed Forces if I want to see s*** like that?


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If you are going to tell women that low-rise jeans only look good on a handful of people, then please also tell men that only a handful of them look good with no shirt at all! I would much rather be subjected to GLH than beer-gutted, love-handled, hairy-backed men all summer.
Heather

At the risk of inducing anorexia in millions of young men, I have to say that I agree with you 100 percent, Heather. Beer-gutted, love-handled, hairy-backed men shouldn't go shirtless in summer. Or any other season.

[A_Team_Gal]

This was hilarious! I thought I was the only one who thought/felt this way! I don't mind the low cut jeans on thin teens or young women, and I even find them nice on women who have a small tummy. But frankly? A woman with her gut hanging over the waistband, and a short shirt to show off her bulging midriff is - and this is my opinion - disgusting. But then, I'm also disgusted by men going shirtless with their guts hanging over thier waistbands or showing the infamous "crack".

I'm a big girl, and even though I am losing weight, I'm happy in my skin. But I would not ever wear something where my gut is hanging over and exposed! I also date a man who is a big guy (300 pounds) and has quite a bit of gut himself. He has never gone shirtless and is always sure to make himself presentable in public.

I don't get this recent craze among young people. But then, I don't think our young people have ever been this overweight before. (And I mean both men and women!)

[featherz]

I think the low rise jeans look bad on almost anyone (thin or not), but that's just my personal preference. Even were I thin as I could be, I'd prefer the fit of the 'to the waist' jeans.

I also don't care for the really baggy, underwear showing look, but again-just me. :)

.02

[Hellistile]

Whenever I would say to my boss that I was losing weight he would retort jokingly, "No you're not, look behind you."

Most of those people wearing inappropriate clothing for their age, size, shape don't see themselves as others see them. In fact, they don't even consider how they look.

I also agree with featherz that some fashions be they old or new just don't look good on anyone, fat or skinny.

Also, there are a lot of skinny people out there that look just as gross as the fat. Skin stretched over bone is never appealing especially if whatever is animating it is still alive. Also, some skinny people are also flabby. Never would have thunk it unless I'd seen it with my own eyes on several occasions.

[pha1226]

I love Dan Savage and totally agree! Now if he could only write something about my 80 y.o. shirtless neighbor!

[Paris]

Hmmm. I love my low-rise jeans.

Let people wear what they want. Who really cares?

- Paris
No longer so fat, but still a radical

[JanJ]

I agree with featherz - never liked the low-rise jeans. I go to stores and they have them for 6-7 year olds. I would never buy them for my daughter.

[erinleigh]

I am a teenager...I am a plus size girl and yes.. I do wear low rise jeans...the fit comfortably in the ass, and all! Where if I buy pants that the band is at my belly button, it look like my crotch is at my knees!!! I've noticed that every since I started Atkins the first flab to go was in my FUPA (Fat Upper Pelvic Area) and know my pants fit even better...but I guess if you don't like it don't look! Best Advice ever!!

[bvtaylor]

As a petite woman, I find that lower rise--roughly belly button jeans look much better than waist-high ones on me... mostly because waist-high is defined by 5'10" models, so when I at 5'3" wear waist-high stuff, it is horribly uncomfortable and looks silly.

Lower rise can nicely flatter a rounder tummy if they are cut right. A woman with tummy curves can be very lovely. Belly dancers, for example, wear lower rise cosutmes, and not all of them are thin women. There is some sensuality in a lovely round tummy.

Now I saw a woman at the gym today who was wearing her shorts so low I think I caught a glimpse of hair that I didn't really want to see. She wasn't particularly fat, nor was she thin, but I think that was a bit extreme and not quite tasteful.

I mean, I think people need to use common sense and look in the mirror. If YOU think it looks good, then YOU are the one who ultimately counts. But if it doesn't look good, try to be honest with yourself and find the size, cut, and fit that flatters you.

Anyone can look beautiful in clothes, and equally, anyone can look bad. Unfortunately (or fortunately, perhaps) not everyone is born with the same taste.

[Nancy LC]

I loved those low-risers when I was a skinny 14 year old and it was the early 70's. However, now that I'm more... ahem, mature, I utterly HATE it that every damn store, even the "large size" stores have made all their damn jeals have lower waistlines. What are they thinking?

One thing I notice with my young neice is that she is a little overweight and is unafraid to wear things that show off her body a little. I think that's so much more of a healthy attitude than what I grew up with where you didn't dare reveal any skin unless it were perfectly thin.

[threejs]

All I can think of when I see most of the local girls wearing their low rise jeans, and their tummies hanging out, even the skinny girls , is my mom hollerin at me when I was young, SUCK IN YOUR STOMACH! I cant get over how the girls just leave their guts stuck out and dont even try to suck it in a little. I think its funny after having that drummed into my brain. OF course, now I wish I could hold my tummy in more :o

[gotbeer]

More GLH: The backlash

Savage Love, May 19, 2004

by Dan Savage

http://www.theonionavclub.com/savagelove/index.php?issue=4020

Just a thanks for the "Girl Love Handles" backlash column. You were absolutely right, Dan. I'm in decent shape, but I would need to cut out beer and chocolate to achieve any sort of "show-offable" stomach. Not going to happen. I work out to KEEP enjoying my vices, thank you very much. So, my stomach, while not exactly drooping over my belt, stays under my shirt. If only 99 percent of low-rise wearers had as much self-awareness. I know you can't possibly reply to all of them, but I'd love to see more of the GLH responses. How about a link to an extra page of GLH letters?
Angelos

I love to see my readers smile, Angelos, so I've posted tons of responses to the GLH below.


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What the fuck is it with the fat people complaining about other people's problem with love handles and low-rise jeans? Sure, fatties, wear whatever you want. Revel in your obesity. Go nuts. We're all happy for you. But, damn, let's not pretend that seeing rolls of fat squeezing up from your too-low pants is attractive, for God's sake. Even many thin people look bad in these pants. They are just not attractive—if you've got hips, and many women do, these pants are a bad idea. End of story. Nothing wrong with having hips. Plenty wrong with squeezing those hips somewhere they just don't fit.

As for all that angry mail, I don't question anyone's right to stuff themselves constantly until they weigh 50 or 100 pounds beyond what would be healthy. But, please, standing around yelling about how others absolutely must find that attractive is just silly. You're free to be fat. I, in turn, am free to find that not attractive. Especially when you wear something that showcases all that extra fat you're dragging around. It's perfectly possible for a fat person to look attractive. It in no way involves squeezing yourself into ill-fitting clothes. That goes for fat girls, fat boys, hairy-backed men, anorexic women, and all others out there.
Tired Of All That Whining



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As a well-traveled physical educator, I am astonished at the type of fat-justification that goes on in the U.S. Our society, as a whole, is obese. More than 50 percent of deaths in this country are due to CVD—coronary vascular diseases—which include heart attack and stroke, just to name a few. There is mounting evidence that breast and prostate cancers are related to excessive consumption of fat. Recent articles in the Journal Of Physical-Education, Recreation, And Dance show that our poor eating habits start in childhood, and that the U.S. has more obese and out-of-shape children than any other industrialized nation. Those who are in denial might take a look at John Robbins' Diet For A New America if they have a strong stomach—or, if they'd rather just see the growing body of evidence without any analysis, they should watch the recently released documentary Super Size Me.

As you are coming to understand from the many letters you are receiving, obesity in America is almost more of a social problem than a physical one. The effects of overeating are physical, but the causes are myriad and often difficult to overcome. These range from the unprecedented availability of unhealthy food in our society to a culture of "blame the other guy" to the pace of life. Genetics has not been shown to be a major component in obesity in the majority of people. As with alcoholism, many obese people are in denial—and, as such, approaches that emphasize compassion and understanding, but also common sense (eat less fat and sugar and exercise more), are needed. Counseling is needed just as much as exercise.

As a parting shot, my wife, who has to buy small or petite sizes here in the U.S., has to buy large sizes when we travel in Europe—this is how skewed America's sense of health is. Europeans are not undernourished, as we'd like to believe; Americans are over-fat. Being politically correct about it won't change the fact that obesity is unhealthy.
Dr. Feel Bad



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I'm a big fan of your column and your book, so I was very disappointed to read that you've been sucked in by all the current hysteria about so-called "obesity." I was especially taken aback by your reference to Greg Critser's ignorant and bigoted screed Fat Land as a "brilliant" critique of our supposed obesity epidemic.

Actually, if you look beyond the alarmist junk-science cranked out by diet doctors pushing their useless, expensive, and dangerous cures for an imaginary disease, you'll find a situation quite similar to the medical community's attitude toward sexual orientation a generation ago. A fat person is no more diseased because he or she is larger than average than a gay person is diseased because he or she doesn't share the most common sexual orientation. The claim that fat people choose to be fat is quite similar to the claim that gay people choose to be gay. In other words, it's not completely false—it's only about 97 percent false. And attempts to make fat people thin have been about as constructive as attempts to make gay people straight.

As for the claim that fat is a major health hazard, it's wildly exaggerated, as is the claim that losing a significant amount of weight and keeping it off improves health—even if such a thing were possible, which it isn't for the vast majority of people.

Anyway, I've just published a book about all of this, which you can read about at www.obesitymyth.com.
Paul Campos



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I realize you've gotten tons of responses about this, but I'll add one more anyway: A few years ago, it was possible to buy jeans and other pants with a somewhat lower rise than the high-waisted pants associated with those Mom wears. These were actually pretty attractive on most people, sat just a couple of inches or so below the natural waist, did not squeeze at the sides, and so on.

The problem is—and trust me as someone who just spent several weeks trying to buy a new pair of jeans—styles are totally different now. It's pretty much impossible to find jeans cut like they were a few years ago, and instead, everything is ultra-low-rise. These jeans begin about a half-inch below where pubic hair starts. Even without the problem of side meat, or GLH, or whatever you want to call it, this is not at all attractive. The mom pants are still an option, but they have their own problems.

This isn't even really about obesity or body image; sometimes (most of the time, really), it's just not appropriate to walk around with your ass and pubic hair poking out of your jeans, no matter what size you are.

I capitulated and bought a pair of jeans that are way lower than I wanted, and I do my best not to expose more of myself than I want to. But I ask you not to judge us because of the low-waisted jeans, because we do the best we can. And, although I realize this is not a shopping column, I would welcome suggestions for other styles.
Low Riser



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I have a small addition to the "Girl Love Handles" debate. Most of the girls I see with low-rise-induced GLH are slim girls who think there is something prestigious about shoehorning themselves into a pair of size 2 jeans when they really ought to be wearing size 4. As a size 16, it's a relief to see that even slim girls can make ridiculous fashion mistakes that make them look like whales. It just goes to show that "skinny" does not equal "looks good in everything." All women should check the rear view before they leave the house. (And what's up with capri pants? It's not enough to look fat; they want to look dumpy, too? I don't get it.)
Curvy Girl With Fashion Sense



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Just want to say thank you for being a voice of reason in this otherwise easily inflamed, non-reading-Dan's-actual-words, crazy, fucked-up society. As a woman who occasionally wears low-rise pants (but not with cropped shirts, good lord) and is among the large percentage of women who don't really look all that great in them, I was not in the least bit offended. You are 100 percent right. I just finished reading Fat Land, and I agree—we can't even talk about our huge obesity problem (one that will cost taxpayers a fortune in medical care) without someone taking offense or saying that it will cause women to become anorexic. That, in my mind, is the bigger problem. We live in a crazy, fucked-up world, Dan. Thanks for speaking up.
Low-Rise-Wearing Fan



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OH, PLEASE! "I eat right, exercise, and enjoy excellent health as a happy fat chick." Please tell Marilyn that if she ate right and exercised, she would not be a fat chick! I was a fat guy of 300 pounds until I started eating right and exercising. A funny thing happens when you eat right and exercise: You lose weight!
Now A Former Fat-Ass (NAFFA!)



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There are few things on this earth that irritate me more than people harping about how all people are equally attractive and deserving to be thought of as such regardless of weight. It is only a symptom of our culture's need to veil harsh truths in order to avoid confronting them. Speaking as a fat, hairy-backed man myself, I would like to play devil's advocate and suggest that (while there are exceptions) there is a standard for attractiveness amongst all humans, and that if you do not care to have the sharp end of this standard pointed at you, lose the goddamn weight and shave the goddamn back. Everyone is not equally beautiful, and everyone knows this—even those who would cry fascism to the people who admit this out loud. As for me, if I ever do care to be seen ranked among the attractive, I know what I'll have to do. Until that day, I'll keep working hard to become rich, a quality that swiftly negates physical repugnance to all potential female prospects.
Contented Fat Load



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Sorry, Dan, but you're wrong on this one.

While you certainly have the "It's a free country" argument on your side, you set the parameters of your column as Savage Love: love, sex, dating, relationships, and so on. This is what your readers have come to expect, and you cover those topics well, with a sense of irreverence that is refreshing.

But fashion opinions? Please, no. While I agree with you on the low-rise/inappropriateness epidemic, I just don't think your column is the place to debate the topic. Leave that to the "Fashion Police."

And the "fat is unhealthy" angle? Um, pot, meet kettle. I scarcely need to remind you of the disease that is nearly synonymous with the minority population you occupy. Asking fat people not to be overweight because it's unhealthy is like asking gay men not to cruise because it's risky. We all have our little vices, and we all reap the hazards. Stay with what you do best, Dan. Please.
Loyal But Dissenting



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I'm a formerly skinny guy who has put on quite a bit of weight after my girlfriend nagged me constantly to do so. I've put on enough that I'm starting to be able to pull some love handle on my sides. I used to look like a cute, skinny little fag boy (you might have liked me in my tighty-whities back then), but now I just look like another well-fed American. I don't like my body as much, but she loves it and says so all the time. In response to all the talk about who should wear what, I think it's important to note that it's strictly a matter of personal preference, and that it can be fuck-all confusing if you try to pander to too many people's tastes. Just make sure the one you love is happy. Everyone else can turn their heads if they don't want to see you.
Can't Please Everyone



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Has the whole world jumped into the deep end of the hypersensitivity pool?

I am a size 12 woman living (quite happily) in a size 2 world. If women could be honest with themselves, they would recognize that 90 percent of the fashions for "women" on the racks these days are designed for women who have no waist, hips, or bust (2 percent of the female population—MAYBE) and look like hell on the rest of us. I cannot criticize Butter With Your Rolls, because he is right. I myself flinch every time I see another woman who has deluded herself into thinking she looks good in clothes that THE FASHION INDUSTRY dictates are currently "in." I flinch not because these women look bad enough to shame the rest of us, but because they don't seem to know any better.

With a little careful shopping, and an understanding and acceptance of her individual shape, any woman can easily create a wardrobe that is both stylish and flattering. Personally, I refuse to allow the hive mentality of a multi-billion-dollar industry to dictate what I can and can't wear.
A REAL Woman



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Marilyn Wann is an embarrassment to this fat feminist.

Writing a letter full of fuck-yous, boring clichés, and exclamation points is not going to get any point about "fat liberation" across to anyone. I have always been a big, fat girl. I also exercise 30 minutes a day, have an on-my-feet job, and have been vegan for years. I love myself and my body. I think I look pretty ridiculous in low-rise jeans, and think many of my fat peers do, too. I'll also never look good in yellow. Boo hoo. "A true fat rebel would ignore the low-rise dictates of the fashionistas and wear pants that flattered her larger body, leaving the low-rise pants for the cigarette-smoking, chardonnay-swilling, solid-food-avoiding fashion victims out there." Bravo, Dan. Thanks for being the voice of reason in this world of walking on eggshells about people's feelings.
Fat Girl In Upstate New York



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Where the holy fuck do you get off saying what hairy-backed men are or are not allowed to wear? Here's some news, Dan, for you and all your hair-hating, Schick-worshipping buddies: Men's bodies belong to men. Fuck you and your fascist beauty standards. Contrary to popular belief, not every man wants to bow down and worship at the temple of your shiny, glabrous shafts.

FUR-IES say fuck you! It saddens me to know that you continue to cling to your hair-hating prejudice. The same attempts were made to stuff queers back in the closet, just as you are now attempting to stuff proud bush rebels (and our proudly fur-lined ass cracks) back into our closet. Fuck you! You're not required to like us or look at us or fuck us, but you are required to stay the hell out of the way of our pubes!

Take a letter about "men's hairy backs," mix in not one but two mentions of shirtlessness, and publish. The result? Thousands of men all over the country developing razor-burn, hair-wax pimples, and laser-treatment debt, all because they don't fit some arbitrary standard of beauty.
The Fuzz Liberation Front



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I am a theater costumer and designer. And, while it is true that the populace by and large does not have body types suited to most of the major fashion trends, the real issue is that most people are morons when buying clothes. Take low-rise jeans, for example. I happen to be very short-waisted, with a curvy figure. Jeans are always cut too high on my torso. For me, low-rise jeans are a godsend, because they help lengthen my waistline and give the illusion of more balanced proportions. This information is boring, I know. But here's the deal: I am not a ridiculously thin person. I've got a little padding around the waist, yet I manage to avoid the Girl Love Handles. Want to know my secret? I buy pants that are my size!

See, the issue with the current fashion trend isn't that fat people or pleasantly plump people or even skinny people can't wear low-rise jeans. The issue is that women are so worried about fitting into the smallest possible size that they buy clothes that don't fit them. If it's snug, go a size bigger and the GLH will go away. It's like magic.

I've had to costume many different body types in my day, and the problem with styles is that you have to figure out which ones work with what you've got and which ones are unflattering. Unfortunately, most people are so worried about the numbers in the pants, they don't pay attention to what actually makes them look good. They believe that if they can squeeze into that smaller size, they're a better person. Well, it's bullshit. The epidemic isn't the low-rise jeans; it's the belief that the smaller size is always more desirable. Come on, ladies. I can't see the label, but I can see the body trying to escape from clothing that's too small. If the fabric can move a little, your body will thank you.
Tight Is Not A Good Fit

[loserbaby]

As a very short rised person, who would not be able to buy pant's if it were not for the low rise jeans, I have a problem with everyone who paints all low rise jeans with the same brush. First of all there are low-rise and then there are ultra low rise. The latter should be reserved for Brazilian Super-Models, but the former, when worn properly, look good on most people. Larger women can look great in low-rise jeans as long as they fit. It's when you see those poor women squeezing themselves into low-rise jeans that are three sizes too small, that you have to sigh. Besides the obvious discomfort factor, rolls of hip fat and tummy hanging out is not attractive.

[blue4lemon]

Lower rise jeans give me a butt, if I wear jeans with the regular waist they gap in the back at the waist because I have no fat back there, and they pooch out in the tummy and the waistband rolls/folds in the front from the pressure of my belly. But I found some nice lower rise jeans at TARGET of all places- they are kind of a thinner material, they don't make my butt look like a wall, they don't make my tummy hang out or bunch, and they don't cling in the wrong places, and they are LONG! I used to only be able to find long jeans at the Gap. Now..when you talk about women who shouldn't be wearing them at all..they are usually wearing a style meant for juniors, usually too small anyway, and wearing the wrong clothes with them. Low rises flatter most bodies.

[BlitzedAng]

LOL 2 funny. I say to each there own. My daughter looks adorable in them , but ME? Pfffffffffff, I wouldn't be caught dead in those or the new bell bottoms called mudd flaps or flares!

LMAO

Angel

[3shewolf8]

I am constantly pinching my GLH's, my husband says that I am driving him crazy, that it's saggy skin that's left from no fat to fill it!! I do wear lo-cut jeans on occasion, and if you wear them in your size, the flab doesn't hang over!! I also ran out and got my belly button pierced as soon as I could see it without lifting up the flab!! I did it for me, not to impress anyone else!! And by the way...I happen to think that "thick" men with hairy backs are way sexy!! The more body hair the better!!

[scrapgirl]

agreeing with Loserbaby and Blue4lemon. It is all in the fit/style/body...whatever. jeans are very personal and we all look good in something different. Please...make sure it fits correctly though! I am not a fan of ultra low rise at all. Like someone else said, I am afraid I may see something I dont want to see!

[Cara73]

I find myself saying all the time...."Don't people look in the mirror before they walk out the door?" :confused: I can only think of a movie I saw called "The Sweetest Thing" with Cameron Diaz and Christina Applegate. Cameron had thse tight low rise pants on in a bar scene, and we all know she is very thin. I thought they looked terrible. They took her figure and made her look, as my husband says "like a 14 year old boy". She looked straight as a board with no figure. Not flattering at all. Just my opinion.

When I see even thin people in those jeans that are tight and pushing up some extra baggage, I find it disgusting. Again, it boils down to looking in the mirror before you leave the house. Be honest with yourself and think of what you would think if you saw somebody else with that on!!!

[sobxlady]

Being a somewhat thick-waisted person (even when I was "skinny"), the low rise jeans look better on me. Not the low, low rise!! And I have absolutely no butt to speak of. :blush: These jeans make me appear to have one. ;) I'm sure that was more information than all of you wanted, but hey, it's the truth! :D And they must fit. The too-tight fit is what makes the girl love handles!!

To each his/her own, I say.

[Iowagirl]

This thread is a riot!
I think that wearing low rise jeans is fine if they fit you better. But do you HAVE to wear shirts so short that everyone sees what's spilling over?

Wear something flattering! Doesn't matter if the number on the tag isn't what you'd like it to be. Stuffing yourself into a smaller size and imitating that can of exploding biscuits is not attractive.

[Lisa N]

Stuffing yourself into a smaller size and imitating that can of exploding biscuits is not attractive.

ROFLMBO! :lol: :lol: :lol: I love that analogy! Hope you don't mind if I steal it from time to time!

[gotbeer]

Cool! I can't eat the exploding biscuits, but I can enjoy the analogy they provide.

[tagcaver]

I've got a "short-waisted" build -- a short trunk as it were. Back in the 60's I could wear hip-hugger pants (today's low rise) and a midrif blouse and they would meet in the middle (not exaggerating much here, either).


I just wish that I could find pants that fit well in the waist. Most "regular" pants (jeans included) have a waistband that comes over my natural waist, touching the bottom of my ribcage. Low rise jeans come more to my natural waistline, but they are too wide, since they are constructed to be over the hips. I can't win for losing.

[Angeline]

I LOVE those low waists. Clothes have never fitted me better. My proportions don't fit the standard they use to cut clothes. So I agree with Sobxlady. My waist is thick in relation to my waist. So anything high-waisted that fits my waist will be too big -- butt, hips and thighs will be baggy and loose. If it fits me properly, then I can't button the waist. These problems are all resolved with low-waist clothes. Low-waist meaning something that buttons just below the belly button, not something that's level with your crotch !

Of course low-waist doesn't mean that you have to bare it all to the world with a short top. If I was toned like Madonna, I might, but until that day (yeah right). I'll keep myself properly covered.

This being said, I'm torn in my opinion. On one hand, I do find the sight of people's belly oozing out of their pants, not especially attractive. Then I also think that it's good that people are not so obsessed with their body that they just wear what they want. When I was young, I had a tiny little tummy that I would hide as if it was a deformity. Now I only wish that I could have that body again !

[bcbeauty]

I somewhat agree with the fact that a person needs to look in the mirror before going out the door....however I don't believe that young girls need to be sooo transfixed on their belly (and whether or not they have a little roll) Most of them are....and we have a lot of anorexic and bulimic kids out there. Quit with the pressure already.
If they are comfortable to go out in low rise jeans and don't have a problem with their self images ...please quit trying to give them one.
Kudos and congrats to all low rise jean wearers. And also to all who have a great self image. Size 3 or size 12. :)

[tholian8]

I LOVE those low waists. Clothes have never fitted me better...So anything high-waisted that fits my waist will be too big -- butt, hips and thighs will be baggy and loose. If it fits me properly, then I can't button the waist. These problems are all resolved with low-waist clothes. Low-waist meaning something that buttons just below the belly button, not something that's level with your crotch !
Yes, thank you! I love my low-rise jeans. I'm so sad that Gap UK stopped carrying them...should have bought a few more pairs at $60 when I was in the US. <sigh>

I'm the same way as you. Until very recently I hadn't even shopped for pants in women's clothing stores in years, because all the styles were far too high-waisted and I had to buy them in voluminous sizes to fit my waist, which meant that the butt and thighs were hanging off and looked idiotic. I'm lucky that I can wear a lot of the men's jean cuts...otherwise I don't know what I would have done for casual pants. The low rise trend has only helped me find pants that look good and fit well. I'll be sad to see it go. All the same, I don't go around with my fat cells hanging out all over....

[PilotGal]

You people are hysterical!!! My partner mentioned this article to me... reading it in a local rag here in Ft. Lauderdale... kept talking about the article and how she agreed with Dan...

It sucks to see a female in a pr of pants with all of it hanging over all the edges... Almost as bad as a hairy backed male!!!! EWWW EWWWW EWWWW!!!!

I have a flat ass.. low rise jeans make me look like there's really something there!! And i can live with that!

Glad you put that article up Gotbeer. :thup:

[featherz]

I am still LOL over the exploding biscuit analogy. :) :) :)

[lynneuk]

One thing the low rise jeans have made me realise.... you don't have to be fat to have stretch marks. I've noticed quite a few slim people have them too!

[deb34]

As my father would say: " They look like a sausage tied in the middle!"

deb

[easylyvin]

Before I went Low Carb, I tried on this pair of Levis. I do wear low ride, but make sure everything is covered. The pair I picked out to try on were "ultra low ride" I didn't see the label and I thought they were the regular. OH MY what a sight! Not a pretty picture, but it was soo funny!!! I laughed and laughed, I had to share my experience with the sales lady! I still am not ready, or ever will be, for the "ultras". :lol:

[Divina99]

I have to agree with BCBeauty.

I'm so self-conscience...it drives my Dh crazy. Everytime we go clothes shopping I try on several styles of pants just so that not one single roll sticks out.:rolleyes: I fit a size 11..standing in them is fine...I sit down and the rolls come out.:o I've had 3 kids and my skin is shot...I can try doing so many situps and it probably won't help lessen the sagging skin or the stretch marks.

My Dh keeps pointing out all the women on the streets that pass us by with their guts/bellies hanging out..and he asks me.."See..how come she can wear that and she is much bigger than you?" He says I need to be more confident and less self-conscience.

I think to myself thank goodness these girls do wear clothes like that..makes me feel less bad about myself.LoL

True it's strange to see girls with their bellies hanging out..and on some I actually think it's cute..not grotesque or anything like that to have a bit of the love handles.LoL On myself that is another matter and I'm way harder on myself..I tend to cover up..and go right back to wearing baggy t-shirts. Right now I don't know but, in NYC it seems all the girls are wearing the low rider pants and very short t-shirts and they don't give a hoot to what people think. They feel and believe they look good..that what makes them happy..then that all that matters. Meanwhile, we can always look the other way. ;) We are such a diverse culture..what may look disturbing to someone is pleasing to someone else vs versa. Some men like women with more meat on their bones others like them rail thin. We can't suit everyones tastes.


I think if the person has the confidence and feels beautiful...inside and out..she/he can get away with wearing just about anything...thin..big..short..tall.

My 2 cents.

[Finestof07]

I LOVE low rise jeans!!!!!!!!!! But they don't look too good on me right now because I have a really big butt and big thighs. But as soon as I hit my goal weight, hopefully by Christmas, I'll run out to the store and buy some ;)

[adkpam]

Well, you go out in public...you're out in public. And everyone is free to express an opinion, at least to themselves and those near and dear.

I agree with the posters who said, more or less, that anyone can wear anything, but just not everything. And this is so true. Women might not be able to do much with what we get, the constantly changing spectrum, wherein if we find a flattering style, we are practically forced to buy extras, because it will be years before it comes around again.

This is why I tend to buy simple, classic stuff, which I tend to look good in, fortunately. What 13 year olds wear is their problem, and I have no desire to imitate them.

[platypusd]

just found this amusing post. fat or thin i like my trousers (and skirts for that matter) to sit below the waist at about the hip bone level. i love low rise jeans and note that when they are purchased IN THE CORRECT SIZE and worn with a shirt that COVERS YOUR STOMACH they look pretty good on most folk. i find that high rise jeans that are too small produce even more belly rolls.

i am a big fan of wearing whatever you like and to hell with what other folks think. however, i am getting tired of seeing people stuffing themselves into ill fitting, obviously uncomfortable clothing (and shoes, i get even more self-righteous with the shoes)because it is 'fashionable'. then again, my preferred uniform is a pair of jeans, a t-shirt and a pair of birkenstocks so I have no right to lecture anybody on fashion. :p

[zippity]

what people need to remember is that this is all OPINION, and you know what they say about opinions.

my own opinion - which is rather widely held, and even if it wasn't would be every bit as valid as anybody else's - is that Girls' love handles and convex bellies, especially as accentuated by tight jeans (low-rise or otherwise, but especially low-rise) are fantastically sexy. the belly is one of a Woman's centers of power; anyone who's made love to a Woman without feeling this hasn't been paying attention (but then, people - men, at least - making love to Women without paying attention to them is nothing new). and a pretty Girl flaunting a fat little belly on an otherwise not-very-fat body knows it's sexy...which is why that's precisely what so many Girls are doing these days.

and one of the factors that makes this sexy is the same one that makes any other physical trait sexy: confidence. a Woman who is truly confident, who is relaxed and comfortable and at ease with who She is and how She looks, is going to be sexy almost no matter what She looks like. all She - or any other Woman - needs is to know in Her own mind that She's sexy, and voilà: She's sexy. sexy as hell, thank you very much.

you may not think it's sexy; it may not be your personal taste, or you may have been brainwashed by our culture into thinking that only what the television says is sexy is sexy (you'd be far from alone in that). but whatever your reasons for your opinion, the scope of that opinion is limited. times are changing, and self-confident Females are determining for themselves what's sexy (what's sexy has never been up to men anyway - sex and sexiness have always been for Women to determine) and changing it and establishing new criteria for sexiness, and you can resist that, or you can join those Women, or join me and all the other men trailing gorgeous sexy Women with gorgeous sexy fat little bellies down the street and whimpering with admiration and desire. but whichever path you choose, it's not going to change the fact: a fat little belly is always going to be sexy on any Female who *knows* in Her own heart and mind that it's sexy. and that's really all there is to it. :p

[Meg_S]

zippity are you trying to get a date or something?
;) just kidding :)

[Nancy LC]

I'll just be glad when this low riser fashion has run it's course. We got over them 30 years ago, it'll happen again.

[Kristine]

zippity are you trying to get a date or something?
;) just kidding :)

I don't think you'd have to be kidding. He's not a LCer... yet he felt compelled to register here and comment. This thread was a year and a half old and would have been on page 9 or so. I wonder what his search keywords were to come up with this thread. "Low risers?" "Bellies?"

Call me a kill-joy, but even though his comments sound nice, I'd have to wonder if they're coming from a spirit of genuine kindness or creepy fetishism.

[serrelind]

LOL Kristine. I had the same impression.

[Meg_S]

You know what's funny... now that you mention it... Even when in great shape, defined muscles etc. I have a chubby belly. I'm really short waisted and store my fat there to boot, so when I'm not fat I still have a soft rolly belly. Anyway I once had this guy pursue me harder than any one else ever has and he told me he has a "little belly fetish" and he kept trying to touch it etc. Heheh I NEVER EVER EVER (at that age) in my wildest dreams would have imagined that there are men out there that like little bellies. :lol:
As it is, my husband prefers what he calls "puffy" or soft bellies to six packs on women anyway, though he really likes sporty girls. :) I'm lucky!

[HarlieLadi]

OMG this site makes my day... so rockin here...... been reading all morning and laughing and blushing too


:cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:

[HarlieLadi]

omg i can relate

:cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:


I have to agree with BCBeauty.

I'm so self-conscience...it drives my Dh crazy. Everytime we go clothes shopping I try on several styles of pants just so that not one single roll sticks out.:rolleyes: I fit a size 11..standing in them is fine...I sit down and the rolls come out.:o I've had 3 kids and my skin is shot...I can try doing so many situps and it probably won't help lessen the sagging skin or the stretch marks.

My Dh keeps pointing out all the women on the streets that pass us by with their guts/bellies hanging out..and he asks me.."See..how come she can wear that and she is much bigger than you?" He says I need to be more confident and less self-conscience.

I think to myself thank goodness these girls do wear clothes like that..makes me feel less bad about myself.LoL

True it's strange to see girls with their bellies hanging out..and on some I actually think it's cute..not grotesque or anything like that to have a bit of the love handles.LoL On myself that is another matter and I'm way harder on myself..I tend to cover up..and go right back to wearing baggy t-shirts. Right now I don't know but, in NYC it seems all the girls are wearing the low rider pants and very short t-shirts and they don't give a hoot to what people think. They feel and believe they look good..that what makes them happy..then that all that matters. Meanwhile, we can always look the other way. ;) We are such a diverse culture..what may look disturbing to someone is pleasing to someone else vs versa. Some men like women with more meat on their bones others like them rail thin. We can't suit everyones tastes.


I think if the person has the confidence and feels beautiful...inside and out..she/he can get away with wearing just about anything...thin..big..short..tall.

My 2 cents.

[HarlieLadi]

ok, i never wore the right jeans in my life until my daughter said
mooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

you have lost so much weight, you need GAP jeans....
after 2 C sections and lotz of tummy lard later, I laughed
until she gave me a size 16 GAP jeans flares ( bell bottom in my days) and lordie lordie, my ass looked good, they fit like poured paint....

now i am happy to say, my GAP size 14 are tooooo baggy and GAP is having a sale this weekend and I go get my new size 12
GAP flares.....
got to love them, dont care if they are a hundred bucks, if they fit tight and stay tight

for years i was buying walmart jeans and they were always too baggy in the ass and thighs and would not button in the waist. i am forever sold on GAP jeans, i am the coolest hot momma on a harley davidson in memphis tennessee with my hot pink boots on....

hear me???.... brovvvmmmmm brovrovvooommmmmmm

[bull999999]

I have nothing against low risers but I do think that it looks pretty silly when someone wears clothing two sizes too small (fit or not) and think and act they are all that. Talk about being vain!

[font=Franklin Gothic Medium]i am the coolest hot momma on a harley davidson in memphis tennessee with my hot pink boots on....

hear me???.... brovvvmmmmm brovrovvooommmmmmm

HarlieLadi, it sounds funny to say but congrats on your recent loss! Two of the soldiers recently got harleys for their birthday (several other soldiers in the platoon ride regularly). I'll probably get one myself in the future after saving up some money and losing more weight so I'll look better in a leather outfit.

[zippity]

I don't think you'd have to be kidding. He's not a LCer... yet he felt compelled to register here and comment. This thread was a year and a half old and would have been on page 9 or so. I wonder what his search keywords were to come up with this thread. "Low risers?" "Bellies?"

Call me a kill-joy, but even though his comments sound nice, I'd have to wonder if they're coming from a spirit of genuine kindness or creepy fetishism.

it's okay - i've been being misunderstood and eyed with suspicion by most Women for the better (or rather, the longer) part of 42 years. i hold many unconventional points of view (many of which pertain to Women) and often express my views with great passion, and that's not a combination calculated to set culturally-indoctrinated Feminine minds at ease.

the truth of me is complex, but to try to put concisely those parts that influenced my post here: my tastes in the physical Woman are different from, and in some cases precisely the opposite of, those espoused by the common man and broadcast incessantly throughout our culture (and accepted by most Women) as being the one and only physical ideal, and it frustrates the &$#~?! out of me to see Women buying this line of B.S. (which is invariably linked directly to this and that line of products) hook, line and sinker and running around knocking themselves out, starving themselves, having cosmetic surgery, and otherwise &$#~?!ing with their bodies and minds in their efforts to rid themselves of physical characteristics i love and find incredibly sexy. Women spend huge amounts of time and effort and money trying to achieve flat bellies. well guess what: i don't find a flat belly anywhere near as attractive as one that isn't. and i was never so aware of this fact as i became when i started seeing beautiful, fit young Women walking around downtown with their fat little bellies sticking out between the bottoms of their short shirts and the tops of their low-rise jeans - without being all self-conscious and self-deprecatory about it, but rather very confident and secure in their sexiness. these Women were owning their sexiness - and a Woman's sexiness is a huge part of Her power - and i found that, and find it, more refreshing than i can easily express.

Women spend thousands of dollars - millions, collectively, i'm sure - to damage their bodies with cosmetic surgery in their efforts to make themselves appear to have huge, spherical, thoroughly unnatural-looking breasts. well guess what: nothing takes my breath away in that department like the sight of a perfectly flat-chested Woman in some form-fitting top. my knees go weak. i want to fall down and worship at Her body. yeah, i know, You think it sounds superficial, but we're talking about physical characteristics here - and our attraction to Your physical characteristics is one of the holds You have on us, and one for which You should be grateful. it's an aspect of Feminine power. but, like many powerful and attractive physical characteristics, You're conditioned to view it with disdain by men who fear Your power over them and want You to turn away from it, rather than toward it.

oh jeez...i told You it's complex. okay...to simplify:

- You have it drilled into Your heads that the only sexy belly is a flat belly. i feel the opposite. so Your buying that line is frustrating to me.

- You have it drilled into Your heads that the only sexy breasts are large breasts (partly because men who feel otherwise tend to have too much discretion to belch out their views on the matter on prime-time television). i feel the opposite. so Your buying that line is frustrating to me.

- big butts? "unsightly" panty lines? same thing. a small butt is a MASCULINE trait. why the hell would a straight man want to look at that?? panty lines call attention to the Feminine shape (and lack of masculine smallness) of Your butt. they're viciously sexy. who tells You they're not? people selling girdles that make Your ass look like it's made out of hard plastic - like it's NOT HUMAN. no industry is going to tell You that You look hot as You are, because You do that naturally - without the aid of any aftermarket product. You don't have to buy anything to look natural...so there are vast industries whose survivals depend on convincing You that Nature and beauty are mutually exclusive; that beauty must be bought.

oh boy. this is all disjointed and i'm sure i'm not done but it's now quarter to seven in the morning and i have to sleep. i just hope some smart Woman can decipher what i've said here and see it as i mean it rather than however it may sound. what i'm saying is not much different from what Divina99 is saying...i'm just saying it from a different (and male, and thus often sexually-charged) perspective, and that tends to freak Women out (sorry, Mesdames, but that's what it is to be male - we're slaves to our sexual desires...which means we're slaves to YOU, which is precisely what all the aforementioned industries and our culture on the whole are striving to prevent You from realizing).

argh. must sleep. somebody just open Your mind and *think* about all this, please? the world would be a much different, and i believe a much better and healthier, place if Women would just understand and assume their rightful place in it. the patriarchal establishment has a vested interest in Your *not* doing this, so it will be an uphill battle for a long time yet...but Your winning could save the Earth before those who currently have the greatest influence kill it altogether.

oh yes, i should have shut up a while back. goodnight.

[Meg_S]

I have to say Zippity's attitude seems a lot healthier than the one that likes women.. grown mature women to look like boys with ballons on their chests. I don't think the economy could handle too many people with that attitude though. Too many men and women would start to feel comfortable and sexy and stop the crazy drive to look that way.. too many women... ditto.. and then men would come around eventually ;)

[zippity]

i'm back. :) briefly. i was just thinking about what i wrote and felt a couple more things needed clarification. and i'm going to try to make this brief.

first, in my zeal i will sometimes make a point at the expense of diplomacy, and i feel i've done that here. i don't mean to dis flat bellies or small butts as unattractive - they're not. i myself have felt very strong physical attractions to some rail-thin Women. what i mean to say is that the range of attractive physical configurations is in actuality much, much wider than marketing mouthpieces would have You believe. yes, flat bellies are sexy. yes small butts are sexy. but so are convex bellies and non-small butts. it's *all* good. for every type of body and body part, there's somebody who's crazy attracted to it. and what turns one guy off is exactly what makes the guy standing next to him as turned-on as he can be.

and the most important point that i barely touched on is that - at least for me - none of these physical traits stands by itself: what makes a person really attractive is the attitude, the confidence, and the personality that bind it all together. yes, the physical person is extremely attractive - most Women would probably be astonished at the impact the sight of a certain body or physical trait can have on a man. it can run really deep, resonate deep in our souls like a really powerful piece of music. that's why we're so affected by sex and the Female body and all that - because it does resonate right down into the core of our being. You think it's all superficial, that for us to place so much importance on Your body equates with "objectifying" You - and i suppose some men do that, or act like they're doing that, or think they're doing that - but i know from being a man and from talking with a lot of others that for many of us, Your bodies are nothing less than holy, and to make love to You is to worship at the altar of the highest Deity we know. but that depth, that significance is not something that we can find in the physical person as an entity detached and isolated from the essential, non-physical person. the physical and non-physical You are interdependent, and so is their significance to us.

oh, and blah blah blah. i'm getting less clear as i go instead of more, so i should stop. but just please bear in mind that the physical Woman is not independent, in our minds and hearts, from the non-physical Woman. reading a lot of really good literature, or expanding Your range of experience so You have a lot of interesting things to talk about, will do more to make You attractive to those around You than will all the dieting and working out You can do in three lifetimes. and Your body - no matter what kind of shape it's in - will just be icing on the cake.

okay. goodnight now really. :)

oh, and thank You, Ms. Meg - You're right, of course. :)

[Galliard]

What a treat to read all these posts! I finally caved in to fashion a couple of months ago and bought a pair of low-rise, boot-cut jeans (fairly modest, actually, and not tight!). My husband liked them but every time I caught my reflection in a store window I felt huge! I have a long, narrow waist and big hips and the old-style jeans are so much more flattering. Anyway, after reading these posts I went home and dug out my old jeans and put them on and they feel so comfortable and I think they look so much better! So maybe I look dowdy and dated, but at least I look slim(mer)!

[HairOnFire]

Low rise jeans are just more flattering and more comfortable. I'll never go back to wearing high-waisted pants (do they even sell them anymore??).

At my heaviest weight last year, I wore low-rise jeans with tops over the waistband, not tucked in. This takes care of the problem of the "spilling over" thing. After just three weeks of LC-ing, I'm already back in my size 8 Gap low-rise white jeans with a T-shirt tucked in (still working on the arms, though, so I wear 3/4 sleeves :().

Thank you, Dr. Atkins! :heart:

[waywardsis]

Hell, wear what looks good on YOU. I'm short and short-waisted, and jeans with too low a rise make my legs look like stumps. Who gives a crap what anyone else is wearing? Caveat: pants look best when the waistband sits BELOW your navel! On everyone! Doesn't have to be miles below, but below.

Zippity - I love ya ;) My BF loves my belly too. I am working on loving it. I will get there someday.

Here in Canada, Dove has a new campaign (soap, shampoo, etc) that features 'normal' women - women of all shapes and sizes, colours and ages; women with bellies, butts, hips, thighs, freckles, grey hair, big noses, big ears...in short, REAL WOMEN. I can't tell you how fantastic it is to drive down the highway and see a huge billboard with women who look like me (short and soft) on it! And they are always smiling and looking happy - not pouting and looking a) stoned b) hungry c) painfully orgasmic. They are calling it their "Campaign for Real Beauty", and, driven by dollars or not, it's a huge step in the right direction IMO, esp for young girls.

Tangent: Women are always being told they suck: too smelly, oily, hairy, pimply, dry, fat etc. How many men do you know that have a cabinet full of skin care products? Not many, I'm sure. How many companies would admit that what you eat has more to do with the health of your skin that what you scrub it with? None, I'm sure (unless they were also selling products, a la Dr. Perricone). I see your frustration, Zippity, because I feel it too with myself and with other women. We buy into this ~#*! I mean, come on...why are we pretty much the only species where the man is the less colourful one?

[highsteaks]

Who gives a crap what anyone else is wearing? Caveat: pants look best when the waistband sits BELOW your navel! On everyone! Doesn't have to be miles below, but below.

Here in Canada, Dove has a new campaign (soap, shampoo, etc) that features 'normal' women - women of all shapes and sizes, colours and ages; women with bellies, butts, hips, thighs, freckles, grey hair, big noses, big ears...in short, REAL WOMEN. I can't tell you how fantastic it is to drive down the highway and see a huge billboard with women who look like me (short and soft) on it! And they are always smiling and looking happy - not pouting and looking a) stoned b) hungry c) painfully orgasmic. They are calling it their "Campaign for Real Beauty", and, driven by dollars or not, it's a huge step in the right direction IMO, esp for young girls.

Tangent: Women are always being told they suck: too smelly, oily, hairy, pimply, dry, fat etc. How many men do you know that have a cabinet full of skin care products? Not many, I'm sure. How many companies would admit that what you eat has more to do with the health of your skin that what you scrub it with? None, I'm sure (unless they were also selling products, a la Dr. Perricone). I see your frustration, Zippity, because I feel it too with myself and with other women. We buy into this ~#*! I mean, come on...why are we pretty much the only species where the man is the less colourful one?

I read an interesting review of the Dove ad campaign in Slate magazine. The writer was saying that the campaign will do really well at first, as women embrace the feel-good idea of "Real Beauty". But, he pointed out, long-term Dove will become the "fat girl brand", and ultimately sales will drop due to this association. What do you guys think?

I admire the effort to bring some reality to the world of beauty marketing.

On the topic of guys and love handles, I had a very interesting conversation with my wonderful man the other night. He was telling me that most guys don't find super skinny girls attractive. The guys who DO find skinny skinny girls hot tend to be a few things: more insecure (need a thin girlfriend as a social status symbol), more immmature (tend to be obnoxious and vocal - like catcalling), and, obviously, more superficial. Since these type of dude is louder about his preferences (he's more likely to be the guy in the bar making loud comments at skinny girls), these preferences are attributed to the majority of guys.

However, "good" guys - smart, well-educated, funny, down-to-earth, sensible - don't find the skin and bones thing attractive at all. They tend to prefer normal looking girls, slim and healthy and curvy, NOT skinny.


Regarding who gives a crap what anyone else is wearing...I think this thread is partly a fashion "Don't!". Basically, it's the information that the majority of people find skin spilling over the top of tight jeans unattractive. If, when you get dressed in the morning, you care about the way the rest of society will see you, that might be useful information.

[Wyvrn]

Interesting comments about toiletries. We have four "beauty products" in the bathroom. Soap, coconut oil, toothpaste and deodorant. No shampoo, conditioner, body scrub, exfoliant, cosmetics, lotions, gels, etc etc. The soap is a locally hand-made and nicely scented "artisanal" soap, but it's the only product in the shower, and the only scented product in the room. I've found the simplicity is far more relaxing and luxurious than a huge clutter of products, no matter how expensive.

Wyv

[HairOnFire]

I'll just be glad when this low riser fashion has run it's course. We got over them 30 years ago, it'll happen again.

LOL! I look better now in low rise jeans than I did back in the 70s. But I am thankful the whole "elephant bell" thing died out. :)

So I hope low rise jeans stick around a while. I will never wear high-waisted pants again.

[waywardsis]

Here we call it a 'muffin top' when you're puffing out over your waistband!

As for Dove becoming the 'fat girl' brand - I don't agree. The ads don't just show heavier women, they show all sorts of women. It's not about weight at all - it's about the diversity of beauty. I'm happy bc there's short chicks! Woo hoo!

[Samantha22]

I live in a resort area. The skin has already begun to appear. Just the other day i was driving with my bf and we both coudln't stop staring at this girl....her shorts were that of denim material...but they fit like underwear...lol. I mean...it was kinda crazy. But i'm the kinda person who'll tap my sis and go "oh god look over there"....but i also think that people are entitled to wear what they want...i just wish some people had better taste..that's all.
On topic..i've found that alot of times lowrise jeans are THE ONLY thing i can find in the stores...the last pair of jeans i bought..no lie....the zipper was only about an inch in length. I had no choice...it's all they had. But i do think it's important to pair them with the right shirt, and to get a size that fits.