chin-ups vs pulldowns

[Partho Bho]

Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for chin-ups
vs pull-ups.

Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for
pull-downs, which of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns)
is the better one for widening the lats? What are the pros and
cons of each?

Regards,
PS

[Nikolai Mi]

Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight, pullups
are still harder. I think it has to do with using momentum on
pull downs.

N

Partho Bhowmick wrote:

> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for
> chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>
> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for
> pull-downs, which of the two exercises(chin-ups or
> pulldowns) is the better one for widening the lats? What are
> the pros and cons of each?
>
> Regards,
> PS

[John Hudso]

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:33:52 -0700, Nikolai Michaleski
<nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
>Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>
>> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for
>> chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>>
>> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight
>> for pull-downs, which of the two exercises(chin-ups or
>> pulldowns) is the better one for widening the lats? What
>> are the pros and cons of each?
>>
>> Regards,
>> PS
>
>Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight, pullups
>are still harder. I think it has to do with using momentum on
>pull downs.
>

I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to pull
down my own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with pull-ups,
and chins are even easier, in fact I do both with additional
weight on a weight belt.

However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine, I
have no idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In
order to attempt bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar
and by trial and error, adjust the weight until I
counterbalance the load.

At that counter-balanced weight level there is no way I can
budge the weight when I attempt a pull-down!

TFIF!! ;o)

[Dundonald]

"Partho Bhowmick" <x@y.net> thoughtfully wrote:

>Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for
>chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>
>Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for
>pull-downs, which of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns)
>is the better one for widening the lats? What are the pros
>and cons of each?

Chins every time. You can swing like a monkey on pull
down machine.

--
http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com Track your progress on-line
free, no pop-ups or spam. (thanks Pet) View my profile: (don't
take the proverbial! :) http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com/me-
mber_profiles.php?username=Dundonald

[Dundonald]

John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> thoughtfully wrote:

>On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:33:52 -0700, Nikolai Michaleski
><nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
>>Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for
>>> chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>>>
>>> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight
>>> for pull-downs, which of the two exercises(chin-ups or
>>> pulldowns) is the better one for widening the lats? What
>>> are the pros and cons of each?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> PS
>>
>>Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight, pullups
>>are still harder. I think it has to do with using momentum
>>on pull downs.
>>
>
>I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to
>pull down my own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with
>pull-ups, and chins are even easier, in fact I do both with
>additional weight on a weight belt.
>
>However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine, I
>have no idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In
>order to attempt bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar and
>by trial and error, adjust the weight until I counterbalance
>the load.
>
>At that counter-balanced weight level there is no way I can
>budge the weight when I attempt a pull-down!
>
>TFIF!! ;o)

That is very strange.

--
http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com Track your progress on-line
free, no pop-ups or spam. (thanks Pet) View my profile: (don't
take the proverbial! :) http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com/me-
mber_profiles.php?username=Dundonald

[Jeff Finla]

John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote:
> Nikolai Michaleski <nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
> >Partho Bhowmick wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for
> >> chin-ups vs pull-ups.
> >>
> >> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight
> >> for pull-downs, which of the two exercises(chin-ups or
> >> pulldowns) is the better one for widening the lats? What
> >> are the pros and cons of each? Regards,
> >> PS
> >
> >Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight, pullups
> >are still harder. I think it has to do with using momentum
> >on pull downs.
>
> I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to
> pull down my own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with
> pull-ups, and chins are even easier, in fact I do both with
> additional weight on a weight belt.

Agreed. I think pulldowns are harder because body positioning
is more restricted compared to pull-ups.

> However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine, I
> have no idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In
> order to attempt bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar and
> by trial and error, adjust the weight until I counterbalance
> the load.

Gearing? The weight is less with a double pulley config if
that's what you mean.

> At that counter-balanced weight level there is no way I can
> budge the weight when I attempt a pull-down! TFIF!! ;o)

[Bully]

John HUDSON wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:33:52 -0700, Nikolai Michaleski
> <nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
>> Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for
>>> chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>>>
>>> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight
>>> for pull-downs, which of the two exercises(chin-ups or
>>> pulldowns) is the better one for widening the lats? What
>>> are the pros and cons of each?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> PS
>>
>> Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight, pullups
>> are still harder. I think it has to do with using momentum
>> on pull downs.
>>
>
> I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to
> pull down my own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with
> pull-ups, and chins are even easier, in fact I do both with
> additional weight on a weight belt.
>
> However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine, I
> have no idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In
> order to attempt bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar and
> by trial and error, adjust the weight until I counterbalance
> the load.
>
How do you do that?

--
Bully Protein bars -- http://www.proteinbars.co.uk Everything
else -- http://www.proteinbars.co.uk/tmof.html

[John Hudso]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 11:30:36 -0500, Jeff Finlayson
<finlayson@hiwaay.not> wrote:

>John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote:
>> Nikolai Michaleski <nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
>> >Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>> >
>> >> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for
>> >> chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>> >>
>> >> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight
>> >> for pull-downs, which of the two exercises(chin-ups or
>> >> pulldowns) is the better one for widening the lats? What
>> >> are the pros and cons of each? Regards,
>> >> PS
>> >
>> >Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight,
>> >pullups are still harder. I think it has to do with using
>> >momentum on pull downs.
>>
>> I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to
>> pull down my own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with
>> pull-ups, and chins are even easier, in fact I do both with
>> additional weight on a weight belt.
>
>Agreed. I think pulldowns are harder because body positioning
>is more restricted compared to pull-ups.
>
>> However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine, I
>> have no idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In
>> order to attempt bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar
>> and by trial and error, adjust the weight until I
>> counterbalance the load.
>
>Gearing? The weight is less with a double pulley config if
>that's what you mean.

That's how it is supposed to work, but if I have
counter-balanced myself I should in theory be pulling down my
own bodyweight exactly.

However, that notwithstanding, I still can't pull it down!
Very frustrating and another 'unknown' with Precor equipment,
as not even they can tell me what weight I am shifting, or
even the weight equivalent for each weight plate!!

HAGW!!

[Sooky Grum]

Jeff Finlayson wrote:

>
> Gearing? The weight is less with a double pulley config if
> that's what you mean.

Some pulldown machines use chains rather than cable, so his
might resemble gears.

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

[John Hudso]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully"
<neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:

>John HUDSON wrote:
>> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:33:52 -0700, Nikolai Michaleski
>> <nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
>>> Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for
>>>> chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>>>>
>>>> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight
>>>> for pull-downs, which of the two exercises(chin-ups or
>>>> pulldowns) is the better one for widening the lats? What
>>>> are the pros and cons of each?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> PS
>>>
>>> Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight,
>>> pullups are still harder. I think it has to do with using
>>> momentum on pull downs.
>>>
>>
>> I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to
>> pull down my own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with
>> pull-ups, and chins are even easier, in fact I do both with
>> additional weight on a weight belt.
>>
>> However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine, I
>> have no idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In
>> order to attempt bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar
>> and by trial and error, adjust the weight until I
>> counterbalance the load.
>>
>How do you do that?

Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight
on the overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I
think equals my own weight, and then adjust up or down, by
releasing, earthing out, and putting the pin either higher or
lower, until I find I can hang there suspended going neither
up nor down!!

Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it down
seated, knees under the padded restraint, while I strain and
grunt like a fucking idiot.

As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!

HAGW!! ;o)

[John Hudso]

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 01:07:02 +0800, sooky grumper
<sookygrumper@fishies_.com> wrote:

>Jeff Finlayson wrote:
>
>>
>> Gearing? The weight is less with a double pulley config if
>> that's what you mean.
>
>Some pulldown machines use chains rather than cable, so his
>might resemble gears.

The Precor machines at my gym are all Kevlar belt driven
multiple pulley systems. No two machines are the same, and it
is very frustrating not knowing what weight is being used!!

HAGW! ;o)

[Jeff Finla]

sooky grumper <sookygrumper@fishies_.com> wrote:
> Jeff Finlayson wrote:
> >
> > Gearing? The weight is less with a double pulley config if
> > that's what you mean.
>
> Some pulldown machines use chains rather than cable, so his
> might resemble gears.

I aware of those. They are very rare. That's why I asked...

[Dundonald]

John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> thoughtfully wrote:

>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully"
><neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:
>
>>John HUDSON wrote:
>>> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:33:52 -0700, Nikolai Michaleski
>>> <nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
>>>> Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for
>>>>> chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>>>>>
>>>>> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight
>>>>> for pull-downs, which of the two exercises(chin-ups or
>>>>> pulldowns) is the better one for widening the lats? What
>>>>> are the pros and cons of each?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> PS
>>>>
>>>> Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight,
>>>> pullups are still harder. I think it has to do with using
>>>> momentum on pull downs.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to
>>> pull down my own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with
>>> pull-ups, and chins are even easier, in fact I do both
>>> with additional weight on a weight belt.
>>>
>>> However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine,
>>> I have no idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In
>>> order to attempt bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar
>>> and by trial and error, adjust the weight until I
>>> counterbalance the load.
>>>
>>How do you do that?
>
>Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight
>on the overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I
>think equals my own weight, and then adjust up or down, by
>releasing, earthing out, and putting the pin either higher or
>lower, until I find I can hang there suspended going neither
>up nor down!!
>
>Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it down
>seated, knees under the padded restraint, while I strain and
>grunt like a fucking idiot.

It's all physics.

>As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
>
>HAGW!! ;o)

--
http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com Track your progress on-line
free, no pop-ups or spam. (thanks Pet) View my profile: (don't
take the proverbial! :) http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com/me-
mber_profiles.php?username=Dundonald

[Kenn Lynch]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 17:41:17 +0100, John HUDSON
<jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote:

>Gearing? The weight is less with a double pulley config if
>that's what
>>you mean.
>
>That's how it is supposed to work, but if I have
>counter-balanced myself I should in theory be pulling down my
>own bodyweight exactly.
>
>However, that notwithstanding, I still can't pull it down!
>Very frustrating and another 'unknown' with Precor equipment,
>as not even they can tell me what weight I am shifting, or
>even the weight equivalent for each weight plate!!
>
>HAGW!!

John For what it's worth?

On my Precor S23 (formerly Pacific Fitness, Delmar) The 20
plate weight stack contained 200 lbs (+ 8 lbs for the
stack "cap")

5 smaller 5 lb plates (25 lb)
10 medium 10 lb plates (100 lb)
5 large 15 lb plates (75 lb)

Precor's upgrade option consists of 5 additional 15lb (they
replace the 5lb plates to keep the total 20 plates) with a
total of 250 lbs

Last time I checked it's very close to one to one ratio at the
furthest handle.(stack to bodyweight load) but you do have to
assume the axles on the pulleys, rollers and the bushings in
the weight stack and cams add some friction and non-linearity
to the load.

The Delmar, is a machine with very good counter balancing for
the lever arm and kind of unique in that the push and pull
movements use the very same linkage. But even so you can't
really compare the selectorized stack weight to its freeweight
equivalent.

All in all, I think the best way is to use selectorized stack
weight values is as a relative indicator of increment. this is
especially true when you add levers and cams to the machine.

Kenn Lynch

[John Hudso]

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 00:15:26 -0400, Kenn Lynch
<klynch212@spam_bam_comcast.net> wrote:

>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 17:41:17 +0100, John HUDSON
><jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote:
>
>>Gearing? The weight is less with a double pulley config if
>>that's what
>>>you mean.
>>
>>That's how it is supposed to work, but if I have
>>counter-balanced myself I should in theory be pulling down
>>my own bodyweight exactly.
>>
>>However, that notwithstanding, I still can't pull it
>>down! Very frustrating and another 'unknown' with
>>Precor equipment, as not even they can tell me what
>>weight I am shifting, or even the weight equivalent for
>>each weight plate!!
>>
>>HAGW!!
>
>John For what it's worth?
>
>On my Precor S23 (formerly Pacific Fitness, Delmar) The 20
>plate weight stack contained 200 lbs (+ 8 lbs for the
>stack "cap")
>
> 5 smaller 5 lb plates (25 lb)
> 10 medium 10 lb plates (100 lb)
> 5 large 15 lb plates (75 lb)
>
>Precor's upgrade option consists of 5 additional 15lb (they
>replace the 5lb plates to keep the total 20 plates) with a
>total of 250 lbs
>
>
>Last time I checked it's very close to one to one ratio at
>the furthest handle.(stack to bodyweight load) but you do
>have to assume the axles on the pulleys, rollers and the
>bushings in the weight stack and cams add some friction and
>non-linearity to the load.
>
>The Delmar, is a machine with very good counter balancing for
>the lever arm and kind of unique in that the push and pull
>movements use the very same linkage. But even so you can't
>really compare the selectorized stack weight to its
>freeweight equivalent.
>
>All in all, I think the best way is to use selectorized
>stack weight values is as a relative indicator of
>increment. this is especially true when you add levers and
>cams to the machine.
>
>Kenn Lynch

Thanks Kenn.

I have in fact been in regular communication with Precor about
this vexing problem. They have been honest enough to admit
that they don't provide their machines with accurate weight
plates for fear of litigation. They use what they describe as
"graduated resistance plates in numeric increments".

The nearest they will admit is that the plates are
approximately 5 and 10 kgs, but they have no idea what
the 'gearing' on the various machines does to those
estimated weights.

I have learned to live with them but long for our free-weight
room to open again!

Have a great Sunday! ;o)

[John Hudso]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 23:12:03 +0000 (UTC), dundonald
<usenet@domain.sickofspam> wrote:

>John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> thoughtfully wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully"
>><neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:
>>
>>>John HUDSON wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:33:52 -0700, Nikolai Michaleski
>>>> <nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
>>>>> Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for
>>>>>> chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body
>>>>>> weight for pull-downs, which of the two
>>>>>> exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is the better one for
>>>>>> widening the lats? What are the pros and cons of each?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> PS
>>>>>
>>>>> Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight,
>>>>> pullups are still harder. I think it has to do with
>>>>> using momentum on pull downs.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to
>>>> pull down my own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with
>>>> pull-ups, and chins are even easier, in fact I do both
>>>> with additional weight on a weight belt.
>>>>
>>>> However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine,
>>>> I have no idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In
>>>> order to attempt bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar
>>>> and by trial and error, adjust the weight until I
>>>> counterbalance the load.
>>>>
>>>How do you do that?
>>
>>Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight
>>on the overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I
>>think equals my own weight, and then adjust up or down, by
>>releasing, earthing out, and putting the pin either higher
>>or lower, until I find I can hang there suspended going
>>neither up nor down!!
>>
>>Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it
>>down seated, knees under the padded restraint, while I
>>strain and grunt like a fucking idiot.
>
>It's all physics.

As opposed to physicals?!! ;o)

HAGS!!

[Rambo Four]

Proton Soup <> writes:

> On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:29:49 +0000 (UTC), dundonald
> <usenet@domain.sickofspam> wrote:
...
>>So are you saying one might not be pulling his entire
>>bodyweight with chins? Where does the weight from
>>forearms/hands and upper arms go to?
>
> It just hangs there. Doesn't go anywhere. That's the point.
> It's a question of how much weight you LIFT. Most of your
> body is being lifted 20 inches or so, but the center of mass
> (COM) )of your forearms changes very little. COM change for
> your upper arms may be only half that of your torso, legs,
> and head.

While the grip must isometrically support the entire
bodyweight, including non-moving parts, the parts that
don't move significantly aren't really being lifted. That
makes sense.

I would guess that those parts can't weigh more than twenty
pounds, though, so if someone can do a pullup with 20# extra
weight, I'd look elsewhere for explanations of why a
bodyweight lat pulldown is not do-able. Like mechanics.

By that I mean I'd expect the two exercises to be
significantly different in the way the muscles are used. Kind
of like the front squat versus a high-bar squat.

...
> Not something to worry about anyway. Lots of other things
> get thrown in that confound the curious, such as your
> handspacing may be different on the two exercises, or the
> angle of your wrists is different, or the diameter of the
> bar is different (making grip more of less difficult).

Yeah, that's the kind of stuff I'm thinking of. I've also
noticed that where I put my legs makes a big difference in how
pullups hit my muscles. In a pullup, you get a lot more
control over which muscles do the work.

--
R4S

[Ron]

"dundonald" <usenet@domain.sickofspam> wrote in message
news:hbpk809qvehbnbhotd2m71t6omfcn72o45@4ax.com...
> "Partho Bhowmick" <x@y.net> thoughtfully wrote:
>
> >Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for
> >chin-ups vs
pull-ups.
> >
> >Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight
> >for pull-downs, which of the two exercises(chin-ups or
> >pulldowns) is the better one for
widening
> >the lats? What are the pros and cons of each?
>
> Chins every time. You can swing like a monkey on pull down
> machine.
>
> --
> http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com Track your progress
> on-line free, no pop-ups or spam. (thanks Pet) View my
> profile: (don't take the proverbial! :) http://www.bodybuil-
> dingtracker.com/member_profiles.php?username=Dundonald

Made me think then as well, I can pull myself up but cant pull
down my bodywieght, the most i can do <4 reps> is 95 kilos

Ronny

[Sir Noel P]

"John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
news:0bol809jg3dqigltboi966k8m8kqlgv5ss@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully"
> <neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:
>
>
> Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight
> on the overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I
> think equals my own weight, and then adjust up or down, by
> releasing, earthing out, and putting the pin either higher
> or lower, until I find I can hang there suspended going
> neither up nor down!!
>
> Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it
> down seated, knees under the padded restraint, while I
> strain and grunt like a fucking idiot.
>
> As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
>
> HAGW!! ;o)
>

With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the
entire weight of your forearms/hands and half the weight of
your upper arms so with your bodyweight pulldowns you are
probably pulling a stone or so more than when you chin.

SNP.

[Sooky Grum]

Sir Noel Plum wrote:
> "John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
> news:0bol809jg3dqigltboi966k8m8kqlgv5ss@4ax.com...
>
>>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully"
>><neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight
>>on the overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I
>>think equals my own weight, and then adjust up or down, by
>>releasing, earthing out, and putting the pin either higher
>>or lower, until I find I can hang there suspended going
>>neither up nor down!!
>>
>>Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it
>>down seated, knees under the padded restraint, while I
>>strain and grunt like a fucking idiot.
>>
>>As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
>>
>>HAGW!! ;o)
>>
>
>
> With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the
> entire weight of your forearms/hands and half the weight of
> your upper arms so with your bodyweight pulldowns you are
> probably pulling a stone or so more than when you chin.

Think about that just a little more please...

>
> SNP.
>
>

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

[Dundonald]

"Sir Noel Plum" <sirnoelplum@hotmail.com> thoughtfully wrote:

>
>"John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
>news:0bol809jg3dqigltboi966k8m8kqlgv5ss@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully"
>> <neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my
>> weight on the overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near
>> what I think equals my own weight, and then adjust up or
>> down, by releasing, earthing out, and putting the pin
>> either higher or lower, until I find I can hang there
>> suspended going neither up nor down!!
>>
>> Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it
>> down seated, knees under the padded restraint, while I
>> strain and grunt like a fucking idiot.
>>
>> As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
>>
>> HAGW!! ;o)
>>
>
>With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the
>entire weight of your forearms/hands and half the weight of
>your upper arms so with your bodyweight pulldowns you are
>probably pulling a stone or so more than when you chin.

So are you saying one might not be pulling his entire
bodyweight with chins? Where does the weight from
forearms/hands and upper arms go to?

--
http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com Track your progress on-line
free, no pop-ups or spam. (thanks Pet) View my profile: (don't
take the proverbial! :) http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com/me-
mber_profiles.php?username=Dundonald

[Proton Sou]

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:29:49 +0000 (UTC), dundonald
<usenet@domain.sickofspam> wrote:

>"Sir Noel Plum" <sirnoelplum@hotmail.com> thoughtfully wrote:
>
>>
>>"John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
>>news:0bol809jg3dqigltboi966k8m8kqlgv5ss@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully"
>>> <neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my
>>> weight on the overhead pull-down bar at a weight level
>>> near what I think equals my own weight, and then adjust up
>>> or down, by releasing, earthing out, and putting the pin
>>> either higher or lower, until I find I can hang there
>>> suspended going neither up nor down!!
>>>
>>> Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it
>>> down seated, knees under the padded restraint, while I
>>> strain and grunt like a fucking idiot.
>>>
>>> As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
>>>
>>> HAGW!! ;o)
>>>
>>
>>With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the
>>entire weight of your forearms/hands and half the weight of
>>your upper arms so with your bodyweight pulldowns you are
>>probably pulling a stone or so more than when you chin.
>
>So are you saying one might not be pulling his entire
>bodyweight with chins? Where does the weight from
>forearms/hands and upper arms go to?

It just hangs there. Doesn't go anywhere. That's the point.
It's a question of how much weight you LIFT. Most of your
body is being lifted 20 inches or so, but the center of
mass (COM) )of your forearms changes very little. COM
change for your upper arms may be only half that of your
torso, legs, and head.

OTOH, with the pulldown, you do have a few pounds of
deadweight in your arms pulling down on the bar. But machines
also have dynamic friction that makes them a bit different
from freeweight exercises.

Not something to worry about anyway. Lots of other things get
thrown in that confound the curious, such as your handspacing
may be different on the two exercises, or the angle of your
wrists is different, or the diameter of the bar is different
(making grip more of less difficult).

Proton Soup

[John Hudso]

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:40:08 GMT, Proton Soup <> wrote:

>On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:29:49 +0000 (UTC), dundonald
><usenet@domain.sickofspam> wrote:
>
>>"Sir Noel Plum" <sirnoelplum@hotmail.com> thoughtfully
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
>>>news:0bol809jg3dqigltboi966k8m8kqlgv5ss@4ax.com...
>>>> On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully"
>>>> <neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my
>>>> weight on the overhead pull-down bar at a weight level
>>>> near what I think equals my own weight, and then adjust
>>>> up or down, by releasing, earthing out, and putting the
>>>> pin either higher or lower, until I find I can hang there
>>>> suspended going neither up nor down!!
>>>>
>>>> Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it
>>>> down seated, knees under the padded restraint, while I
>>>> strain and grunt like a fucking idiot.
>>>>
>>>> As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
>>>>
>>>> HAGW!! ;o)
>>>>
>>>
>>>With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the
>>>entire weight of your forearms/hands and half the weight of
>>>your upper arms so with your bodyweight pulldowns you are
>>>probably pulling a stone or so more than when you chin.
>>
>>So are you saying one might not be pulling his entire
>>bodyweight with chins? Where does the weight from
>>forearms/hands and upper arms go to?
>
>It just hangs there. Doesn't go anywhere. That's the point.
>It's a question of how much weight you LIFT. Most of your
>body is being lifted 20 inches or so, but the center of mass
>(COM) )of your forearms changes very little. COM change for
>your upper arms may be only half that of your torso, legs,
>and head.
>
>OTOH, with the pulldown, you do have a few pounds of
>deadweight in your arms pulling down on the bar. But machines
>also have dynamic friction that makes them a bit different
>from freeweight exercises.
>
>Not something to worry about anyway. Lots of other things get
>thrown in that confound the curious, such as your handspacing
>may be different on the two exercises, or the angle of your
>wrists is different, or the diameter of the bar is different
>(making grip more of less difficult).

I gather from the posts that I'm not alone in experiencing
this 'odd' and irritating conundrum. I find that somehow
reassuring, as it has been puzzling me for some time!!

[Bully]

John HUDSON wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully"
> <neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:
>
>> How do you do that?
>
> Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight
> on the overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I
> think equals my own weight, and then adjust up or down, by
> releasing, earthing out, and putting the pin either higher
> or lower, until I find I can hang there suspended going
> neither up nor down!!

I'm confused. If you stack it so that your body weight will
not pull it down, but with say 2kg less on the stack it would
surely it only takes 2kg of effort to pull the stack down?

>
> Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it
> down seated, knees under the padded restraint, while I
> strain and grunt like a fucking idiot.
>
> As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
>
> HAGW!! ;o)
Have a good what ?????

--
Bully Protein bars -- http://www.proteinbars.co.uk Everything
else -- http://www.proteinbars.co.uk/tmof.html

[John Hudso]

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:08:53 +0100, "Bully"
<neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:

>John HUDSON wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully"
>> <neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:
>>
>>> How do you do that?
>>
>> Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my
>> weight on the overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near
>> what I think equals my own weight, and then adjust up or
>> down, by releasing, earthing out, and putting the pin
>> either higher or lower, until I find I can hang there
>> suspended going neither up nor down!!
>
>I'm confused. If you stack it so that your body weight will
>not pull it down, but with say 2kg less on the stack it would
>surely it only takes 2kg of effort to pull the stack down?

I stack it so that I can hang on the pull-down bar and
counter-balance the weight stack, so that it goes neither up
nor down, which I assume is my bodyweight according to the
stack. In other words my bodyweight will pull it down.

If I then sit down and attempt to pull that weight down with a
lat pull-down, I can't do it!!

>
>>
>> Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it
>> down seated, knees under the padded restraint, while I
>> strain and grunt like a fucking idiot.
>>
>> As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
>>
>> HAGW!! ;o)
>Have a good what ?????

Week-end!!

Ugh! It's Monday!! ;o(

[Bully]

John HUDSON wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:08:53 +0100, "Bully"
> <neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:
>
>> John HUDSON wrote:
>>> On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully"
>>> <neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> How do you do that?
>>>
>>> Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my
>>> weight on the overhead pull-down bar at a weight level
>>> near what I think equals my own weight, and then adjust up
>>> or down, by releasing, earthing out, and putting the pin
>>> either higher or lower, until I find I can hang there
>>> suspended going neither up nor down!!
>>
>> I'm confused. If you stack it so that your body weight
>> will not pull it down, but with say 2kg less on the stack
>> it would surely it only takes 2kg of effort to pull the
>> stack down?
>
> I stack it so that I can hang on the pull-down bar and
> counter-balance the weight stack, so that it goes neither up
> nor down, which I assume is my bodyweight according to the
> stack. In other words my bodyweight will pull it down.
>
> If I then sit down and attempt to pull that weight down with
> a lat pull-down, I can't do it!!

I'll try that today -- can't quite get my brain round it:)!!

>>
>>>
>>> Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it
>>> down seated, knees under the padded restraint, while I
>>> strain and grunt like a fucking idiot.
>>>
>>> As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
>>>
>>> HAGW!! ;o)
>> Have a good what ?????
>
> Week-end!!
>
> Ugh! It's Monday!! ;o(

Great, more opportunities to make money:)!

--
Bully Protein bars -- http://www.proteinbars.co.uk Everything
else -- http://www.proteinbars.co.uk/tmof.html

[Jeff Finla]

dun donald wrote:
> Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>
>>Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for
>>chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>>
>>Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for
>>pull-downs, which of the two exercises(chin-ups or
>>pulldowns) is the better one for widening the lats? What are
>>the pros and cons of each?
>
> Chins every time. You can swing like a monkey on pull down
> machine.

Your pulldown machine must not have pads to hold the
legs then...

[Dundonald]

Jeff Finlayson <jfnlayson@hiwaaay.not> thoughtfully wrote:

>dun donald wrote:
>> Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>>
>>>Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for
>>>chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>>>
>>>Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight
>>>for pull-downs, which of the two exercises(chin-ups or
>>>pulldowns) is the better one for widening the lats? What
>>>are the pros and cons of each?
>>
>> Chins every time. You can swing like a monkey on pull down
>> machine.
>
>Your pulldown machine must not have pads to hold the
>legs then...

I don't use the pulldown machine. It does have pads. But I see
people using it leaning back and forth. Lleaning back as they
pull the weight down and forth as they release the weight.

--
http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com Track your progress on-line
free, no pop-ups or spam. (thanks Pet) View my profile: (don't
take the proverbial! :) http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com/me-
mber_profiles.php?username=Dundonald

[John Hudso]

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 21:36:34 +0000 (UTC), dundonald
<usenet@domain.sickofspam> wrote:

>Jeff Finlayson <jfnlayson@hiwaaay.not> thoughtfully wrote:
>
>>dun donald wrote:
>>> Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>>>
>>>>Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for
>>>>chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>>>>
>>>>Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight
>>>>for pull-downs, which of the two exercises(chin-ups or
>>>>pulldowns) is the better one for widening the lats? What
>>>>are the pros and cons of each?
>>>
>>> Chins every time. You can swing like a monkey on pull down
>>> machine.
>>
>>Your pulldown machine must not have pads to hold the
>>legs then...
>
>I don't use the pulldown machine.

That's answered my previous question; what are you using for
pull-downs?

[Sir Noel P]

"sooky grumper" <sookygrumper@fishies_.com> wrote in message
news:408baeb5@quokka.wn.com.au...
> Sir Noel Plum wrote:
> > "John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
> > news:0bol809jg3dqigltboi966k8m8kqlgv5ss@4ax.com...
> >
> >>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully"
> >><neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my
> >>weight on the overhead pull-down bar at a weight level
> >>near what I think equals my own weight, and then adjust up
> >>or down, by releasing, earthing out, and putting the pin
> >>either higher or lower, until I find I can hang there
> >>suspended going neither up nor down!!
> >>
> >>Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it
> >>down seated, knees under the padded restraint, while I
> >>strain and grunt like a fucking idiot.
> >>
> >>As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
> >>
> >>HAGW!! ;o)
> >>
> >
> >
> > With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the
> > entire weight
of
> > your forearms/hands and half the weight of your upper arms
> > so with your bodyweight pulldowns you are probably pulling
> > a stone or so more than
when
> > you chin.
>
> Think about that just a little more please...
>
Okay.

I've thought about it a little more. Now what?

> >
> > SNP.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

[Sir Noel P]

"dundonald" <usenet@domain.sickofspam> wrote in message
news:mu7o80tc18ibrkuj9bc8rqmcfife319p5n@4ax.com...
> "Sir Noel Plum" <sirnoelplum@hotmail.com> thoughtfully
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
> >news:0bol809jg3dqigltboi966k8m8kqlgv5ss@4ax.com...
> >> On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully"
> >> <neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my
> >> weight on the overhead pull-down bar at a weight level
> >> near what I think equals my own weight, and then adjust
> >> up or down, by releasing, earthing out, and putting the
> >> pin either higher or lower, until I find I can hang there
> >> suspended going neither up nor down!!
> >>
> >> Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it
> >> down seated, knees under the padded restraint, while I
> >> strain and grunt like a fucking idiot.
> >>
> >> As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
> >>
> >> HAGW!! ;o)
> >>
> >
> >With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the
> >entire weight
of
> >your forearms/hands and half the weight of your upper arms
> >so with your bodyweight pulldowns you are probably pulling
> >a stone or so more than
when
> >you chin.
>
> So are you saying one might not be pulling his entire
> bodyweight with
chins?
> Where does the weight from forearms/hands and upper
> arms go to?
>
The grip experiences the entire bodyweight but that's as far
as it goes. Really it is exactly the same situation as squats
but upside down (your upper legs have to raise your upper body
weight as well as the weight of the bar but don't have to
raise your lower legs and feet).

SNP.

> --
> http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com Track your progress
> on-line free, no pop-ups or spam. (thanks Pet) View my
> profile: (don't take the proverbial! :) http://www.bodybuil-
> dingtracker.com/member_profiles.php?username=Dundonald

[John Hudso]

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 11:24:25 +0100, "Bully"
<neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:

>John HUDSON wrote:
>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:08:53 +0100, "Bully"
>> <neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:
>>
>>> John HUDSON wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully"
>>>> <neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> How do you do that?
>>>>
>>>> Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my
>>>> weight on the overhead pull-down bar at a weight level
>>>> near what I think equals my own weight, and then adjust
>>>> up or down, by releasing, earthing out, and putting the
>>>> pin either higher or lower, until I find I can hang there
>>>> suspended going neither up nor down!!
>>>
>>> I'm confused. If you stack it so that your body weight
>>> will not pull it down, but with say 2kg less on the stack
>>> it would surely it only takes 2kg of effort to pull the
>>> stack down?
>>
>> I stack it so that I can hang on the pull-down bar and
>> counter-balance the weight stack, so that it goes neither
>> up nor down, which I assume is my bodyweight according to
>> the stack. In other words my bodyweight will pull it down.
>>
>> If I then sit down and attempt to pull that weight down
>> with a lat pull-down, I can't do it!!
>
>I'll try that today -- can't quite get my brain round it:)!!

I've just got back from my work-out where I tried a much
narrower grip (shoulder width) and found it much easier. I
still can't do bodyweight but it was much nearer.

I can't recall who said that the lat pull-down is usually done
with a wide grip, and he is quite right, as my wide-grip
pull-ups are much harder than my shoulder width pull-ups!!

So obviously a narrower grip on the lat pull-down will be much
more 'productive.

[Sooky Grum]

Sir Noel Plum wrote:
> "sooky grumper" <sookygrumper@fishies_.com> wrote in message
> news:408baeb5@quokka.wn.com.au...
>
>>Sir Noel Plum wrote:
>>
>>>"John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
>>>news:0bol809jg3dqigltboi966k8m8kqlgv5ss@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully"
>>>><neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my
>>>>weight on the overhead pull-down bar at a weight level
>>>>near what I think equals my own weight, and then adjust up
>>>>or down, by releasing, earthing out, and putting the pin
>>>>either higher or lower, until I find I can hang there
>>>>suspended going neither up nor down!!
>>>>
>>>>Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it
>>>>down seated, knees under the padded restraint, while I
>>>>strain and grunt like a fucking idiot.
>>>>
>>>>As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
>>>>
>>>>HAGW!! ;o)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the
>>>entire weight
>
> of
>
>>>your forearms/hands and half the weight of your upper arms
>>>so with your bodyweight pulldowns you are probably pulling
>>>a stone or so more than
>
> when
>
>>>you chin.
>>
>>Think about that just a little more please...
>>
>
> Okay.
>
> I've thought about it a little more. Now what?

Well, while the forearms and hands don't move during
chinups/pullups, they, along with the upper arms,
counterbalance some of the weight during pulldowns because as
you're trying to pull your arms down, gravity is to. And as
gravity is a constant on both exercises (unless you're in
space, lifting on a mountain top, or lifting onboard an
aircraft at 48,000 ft...), by your reasoning pulldowns should
actually be easier.

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

[Helgi Brie]

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:07:36 +0100, John HUDSON
<jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote:

>I've just got back from my work-out where I tried a much
>narrower grip (shoulder width) and found it much easier. I
>still can't do bodyweight but it was much nearer.
>
>I can't recall who said that the lat pull-down is usually
>done with a wide grip, and he is quite right, as my wide-grip
>pull-ups are much harder than my shoulder width pull-ups!!
>
>So obviously a narrower grip on the lat pull-down will be
>much more 'productive.

Well, that depends on what you want to "produce".

The wider the grip, the greater the contribution of the lats
in proportion to the biceps.

--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

Never worry about anything that you see on the news. To get on
the news it must be sufficiently rare that your chances of
being involved are negligible!

[Sir Noel P]

"sooky grumper" <sookygrumper@fishies_.com> wrote in message
news:408d4c57$1@quokka.wn.com.au...
> Sir Noel Plum wrote:
> > "sooky grumper" <sookygrumper@fishies_.com> wrote in
> > message news:408baeb5@quokka.wn.com.au...
> >
> >>Sir Noel Plum wrote:
> >>
> >>>"John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
> >>>news:0bol809jg3dqigltboi966k8m8kqlgv5ss@4ax.com...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully"
> >>>><neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my
> >>>>weight on the overhead pull-down bar at a weight level
> >>>>near what I think equals my own weight, and then adjust
> >>>>up or down, by releasing, earthing out, and putting the
> >>>>pin either higher or lower, until I find I can hang
> >>>>there suspended going neither up nor down!!
> >>>>
> >>>>Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it
> >>>>down seated, knees under the padded restraint, while I
> >>>>strain and grunt like a fucking idiot.
> >>>>
> >>>>As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
> >>>>
> >>>>HAGW!! ;o)
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the
> >>>entire weight
> >
> > of
> >
> >>>your forearms/hands and half the weight of your upper
> >>>arms so with your bodyweight pulldowns you are probably
> >>>pulling a stone or so more than
> >
> > when
> >
> >>>you chin.
> >>
> >>Think about that just a little more please...
> >>
> >
> > Okay.
> >
> > I've thought about it a little more. Now what?
>
> Well, while the forearms and hands don't move during
> chinups/pullups, they, along with the upper arms,
> counterbalance some of the weight during pulldowns because
> as you're trying to pull your arms down, gravity is to. And
> as gravity is a constant on both exercises (unless you're in
> space, lifting on a mountain top, or lifting onboard an
> aircraft at 48,000 ft...), by your reasoning pulldowns
> should actually be easier.
>
I take your point: I was wrong, I was talking shit.

Rethinking the whole thing I'm not sure (by my reasoning)
pulldowns are easier or harder, they should be the same in
terms of the amount of weight actually lifted. How about this:

Let us assume the poster weighs 80kg of which his forearms
weigh 40kg, his legs weigh 40kg and the rest of his body is
weightless (unlikely but it uncomplicates things). For a
pull-up the poster would effectively have to lift 40 kg only,
his forearms remaining stationary and only his heavy legs
being lifted. For the pulldown the legs remain stationary and
his massive forearms effectively counterbalance 40kg (half) of
the weight he is trying to shift effectively leaving 40kg to
be hoisted upward. In both cases the weight of the forearms
can be deducted from the load that the poster is experiencing.

What do you reckon?

SNP.

[Dundonald]

John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> thoughtfully wrote:

<snip>

>I gather from the posts that I'm not alone in experiencing
>this 'odd' and irritating conundrum. I find that somehow
>reassuring, as it has been puzzling me for some time!!

I can chin my bodyweight comfortably, but I can pulldown more.

--
http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com Track your progress on-line
free, no pop-ups or spam. (thanks Pet) View my profile: (don't
take the proverbial! :) http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com/me-
mber_profiles.php?username=Dundonald

[John Hudso]

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 13:22:08 +0000, Helgi Briem
<HelgiBriem_1@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:07:36 +0100, John HUDSON
><jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote:
>
>>I've just got back from my work-out where I tried a much
>>narrower grip (shoulder width) and found it much easier. I
>>still can't do bodyweight but it was much nearer.
>>
>>I can't recall who said that the lat pull-down is usually
>>done with a wide grip, and he is quite right, as my
>>wide-grip pull-ups are much harder than my shoulder width
>>pull-ups!!
>>
>>So obviously a narrower grip on the lat pull-down will be
>>much more 'productive.
>
>Well, that depends on what you want to "produce".

We were rather discussing the somewhat confusing difficulty in
pulling down bodyweight vis a vis pull-ups/chins!

[Helgi Brie]

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:53:22 +0100, John HUDSON
<jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote:

>>>So obviously a narrower grip on the lat pull-down will be
>>>much more productive.
>>
>>Well, that depends on what you want to "produce".
>
>We were rather discussing the somewhat confusing difficulty
>in pulling down bodyweight vis a vis pull-ups/chins!

Yes, I know that. Yes, you can handle less weight with a wide
grip than with a shoulder-width grip. It does not follow that
one or the other is more 'productive'. They target the same
muscle groups, but not quite in the same proportions. I can
handle more weight in a leg press than a squat. Does that make
the leg press more 'productive'? Of course not.

--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

Never worry about anything that you see on the news. To get on
the news it must be sufficiently rare that your chances of
being involved are negligible!

[John Hudso]

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:14:48 +0000, Helgi Briem
<HelgiBriem_1@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:53:22 +0100, John HUDSON
><jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote:
>
>>>>So obviously a narrower grip on the lat pull-down will be
>>>>much more productive.
>>>
>>>Well, that depends on what you want to "produce".
>>
>>We were rather discussing the somewhat confusing difficulty
>>in pulling down bodyweight vis a vis pull-ups/chins!
>
>Yes, I know that. Yes, you can handle less weight with a wide
>grip than with a shoulder-width grip. It does not follow that
>one or the other is more 'productive'.

It does if the "productivity" being sought is a better
ratio of achievement relative to bodyweight when doing a
lat pull down!!

Trust me Helgi, I know these things! ;o)

>They target the same muscle groups, but not quite in the same
>proportions. I can handle more weight in a leg press than a
>squat. Does that make the leg press more 'productive'? Of
>course not.

We appear to be at cross purposes old chap, which if it is the
result of me confusing you, please accept my apologies! ;o)

[Sooky Grum]

Sir Noel Plum wrote:
> "sooky grumper" <sookygrumper@fishies_.com> wrote in message
> news:408d4c57$1@quokka.wn.com.au...
>
>>Sir Noel Plum wrote:
>>
>>>"sooky grumper" <sookygrumper@fishies_.com> wrote in
>>>message news:408baeb5@quokka.wn.com.au...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Sir Noel Plum wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
>>>>>news:0bol809jg3dqigltboi966k8m8kqlgv5ss@4ax.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully"
>>>>>><neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my
>>>>>>weight on the overhead pull-down bar at a weight level
>>>>>>near what I think equals my own weight, and then adjust
>>>>>>up or down, by releasing, earthing out, and putting the
>>>>>>pin either higher or lower, until I find I can hang
>>>>>>there suspended going neither up nor down!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it
>>>>>>down seated, knees under the padded restraint, while I
>>>>>>strain and grunt like a fucking idiot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>HAGW!! ;o)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the
>>>>>entire weight
>>>
>>>of
>>>
>>>
>>>>>your forearms/hands and half the weight of your upper
>>>>>arms so with your bodyweight pulldowns you are probably
>>>>>pulling a stone or so more than
>>>
>>>when
>>>
>>>
>>>>>you chin.
>>>>
>>>>Think about that just a little more please...
>>>>
>>>
>>>Okay.
>>>
>>>I've thought about it a little more. Now what?
>>
>>Well, while the forearms and hands don't move during
>>chinups/pullups, they, along with the upper arms,
>>counterbalance some of the weight during pulldowns because
>>as you're trying to pull your arms down, gravity is to. And
>>as gravity is a constant on both exercises (unless you're in
>>space, lifting on a mountain top, or lifting onboard an
>>aircraft at 48,000 ft...), by your reasoning pulldowns
>>should actually be easier.
>>
>
> I take your point: I was wrong, I was talking shit.
>
> Rethinking the whole thing I'm not sure (by my reasoning)
> pulldowns are easier or harder, they should be the same
> in terms of the amount of weight actually lifted. How
> about this:
>
> Let us assume the poster weighs 80kg of which his forearms
> weigh 40kg, his legs weigh 40kg and the rest of his body is
> weightless (unlikely but it uncomplicates things). For a
> pull-up the poster would effectively have to lift 40 kg
> only, his forearms remaining stationary and only his heavy
> legs being lifted. For the pulldown the legs remain
> stationary and his massive forearms effectively
> counterbalance 40kg (half) of the weight he is trying to
> shift effectively leaving 40kg to be hoisted upward. In both
> cases the weight of the forearms can be deducted from the
> load that the poster is experiencing.
>
> What do you reckon?

Sounds about right :-)

>
> SNP.
>
>

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

[John Hudso]

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 21:31:06 +0000 (UTC), dundonald
<usenet@domain.sickofspam> wrote:

>John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> thoughtfully wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>I gather from the posts that I'm not alone in experiencing
>>this 'odd' and irritating conundrum. I find that somehow
>>reassuring, as it has been puzzling me for some time!!
>
>I can chin my bodyweight comfortably, but I can
>pulldown more.

On a geared pull-down machine?

[Jeff Finla]

dundonald wrote:
> Jeff Finlayson wrote:
>>dundonald wrote:

>>>Chins every time. You can swing like a monkey on pull down
>>>machine.
>>
>>Your pulldown machine must not have pads to hold the
>>legs then...
>
> I don't use the pulldown machine. It does have pads. But
> I see people using it leaning back and forth. Lleaning
> back as they pull the weight down and forth as they
> release the weight.

OK. Aspects of both exercises could resemble swinging like a
monkey I suppose. ;)

[Bully]

dundonald wrote:
> Jeff Finlayson <jfnlayson@hiwaaay.not> thoughtfully wrote:
>
>> dun donald wrote:
>>> Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for
>>>> chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>>>>
>>>> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight
>>>> for pull-downs, which of the two exercises(chin-ups or
>>>> pulldowns) is the better one for widening the lats? What
>>>> are the pros and cons of each?
>>>
>>> Chins every time. You can swing like a monkey on pull down
>>> machine.
>>
>> Your pulldown machine must not have pads to hold the legs
>> then...
>
> I don't use the pulldown machine. It does have pads. But
> I see people using it leaning back and forth. Lleaning
> back as they pull the weight down and forth as they
> release the weight.

That's probably because they are using it for pulley rows, not
pulldowns.

--
Bully Protein bars -- http://www.proteinbars.co.uk Everything
else -- http://www.proteinbars.co.uk/tmof.html

[Jeff Finla]

Sir Noel Plum wrote:

> With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the
> entire weight of your forearms/hands and half the weight of
> your upper arms so with your bodyweight pulldowns you are
> probably pulling a stone or so more than when you chin.

The lat pulldown bar, forearms and part of upper arms serve as
counter weights on lat PDs. So the weight difference between
the 2 exercises should be twice this amount if everything else
were the same.

[Bully]

Sir Noel Plum wrote:
> I take your point: I was wrong, I was talking shit.
>
> Rethinking the whole thing I'm not sure (by my reasoning)
> pulldowns are easier or harder, they should be the same
> in terms of the amount of weight actually lifted. How
> about this:
>
> Let us assume the poster weighs 80kg of which his forearms
> weigh 40kg, his legs weigh 40kg and the rest of his body is
> weightless (unlikely but it uncomplicates things). For a
> pull-up the poster would effectively have to lift 40 kg
> only, his forearms remaining stationary and only his heavy
> legs being lifted. For the pulldown the legs remain
> stationary and his massive forearms effectively
> counterbalance 40kg (half) of the weight he is trying to
> shift effectively leaving 40kg to be hoisted upward. In both
> cases the weight of the forearms can be deducted from the
> load that the poster is experiencing.
>
> What do you reckon?
>

You either need more drugs or less drugs; it's impossible to
tell from here!

--
Bully Protein bars -- http://www.proteinbars.co.uk Everything
else -- http://www.proteinbars.co.uk/tmof.html

[Anon]

John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
news:<dg2j80tcij4snjt1c729l0jhvvacvlhddj@4ax.com>...
> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:33:52 -0700, Nikolai Michaleski
> <nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
> >Partho Bhowmick wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for
> >> chin-ups vs pull-ups.
> >>
> >> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight
> >> for pull-downs, which of the two exercises(chin-ups or
> >> pulldowns) is the better one for widening the lats? What
> >> are the pros and cons of each?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> PS
> >
> >Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight, pullups
> >are still harder. I think it has to do with using momentum
> >on pull downs.
> >
>
> I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to
> pull down my own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with
> pull-ups, and chins are even easier, in fact I do both with
> additional weight on a weight belt.
>
> However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine, I
> have no idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In
> order to attempt bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar and
> by trial and error, adjust the weight until I counterbalance
> the load.
>
> At that counter-balanced weight level there is no way I can
> budge the weight when I attempt a pull-down!
>
> TFIF!! ;o)

That's interesting. What I used to do 'cos im so light, is I
strap myself in! wrap a belt over my lap and around the
bench. I stopped using the pull down machine because the
gearing is such that an elephant could stand on the weights
and a little girl could pull the thing down (if she's
strapped in). Well, that's a slight exaggeration, but it's
too easy for the average couch potato, even with a fat guy
standing on the weights.

[John Hudso]

On 27 Apr 2004 10:05:19 -0700, q_q_anonymous@yahoo.co.uk
(Anon) wrote:

>John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
>news:<dg2j80tcij4snjt1c729l0jhvvacvlhddj@4ax.com>...
>> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:33:52 -0700, Nikolai Michaleski
>> <nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
>> >Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>> >
>> >> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for
>> >> chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>> >>
>> >> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight
>> >> for pull-downs, which of the two exercises(chin-ups or
>> >> pulldowns) is the better one for widening the lats? What
>> >> are the pros and cons of each?
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >> PS
>> >
>> >Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight,
>> >pullups are still harder. I think it has to do with using
>> >momentum on pull downs.
>> >
>>
>> I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to
>> pull down my own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with
>> pull-ups, and chins are even easier, in fact I do both with
>> additional weight on a weight belt.
>>
>> However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine, I
>> have no idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In
>> order to attempt bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar
>> and by trial and error, adjust the weight until I
>> counterbalance the load.
>>
>> At that counter-balanced weight level there is no way I can
>> budge the weight when I attempt a pull-down!
>>
>> TFIF!! ;o)
>
>
>That's interesting. What I used to do 'cos im so light, is I
>strap myself in! wrap a belt over my lap and around the
>bench. I stopped using the pull down machine because the
>gearing is such that an elephant could stand on the weights
>and a little girl could pull the thing down (if she's
>strapped in). Well, that's a slight exaggeration, but it's
>too easy for the average couch potato, even with a fat guy
>standing on the weights.

I suggest that we are discussing different machines.

[Dundonald]

"Bully" <neil.simpson@virgin.net> thoughtfully wrote:

>dundonald wrote:
>> Jeff Finlayson <jfnlayson@hiwaaay.not> thoughtfully wrote:
>>
>>> dun donald wrote:
>>>> Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for
>>>>> chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>>>>>
>>>>> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight
>>>>> for pull-downs, which of the two exercises(chin-ups or
>>>>> pulldowns) is the better one for widening the lats? What
>>>>> are the pros and cons of each?
>>>>
>>>> Chins every time. You can swing like a monkey on pull
>>>> down machine.
>>>
>>> Your pulldown machine must not have pads to hold the legs
>>> then...
>>
>> I don't use the pulldown machine. It does have pads. But I
>> see people using it leaning back and forth. Lleaning back
>> as they pull the weight down and forth as they release the
>> weight.
>
>That's probably because they are using it for pulley rows,
>not pulldowns.

Inadvertently yes. They don't realise it.

--
http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com Track your progress on-line
free, no pop-ups or spam. (thanks Pet) View my profile: (don't
take the proverbial! :) http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com/me-
mber_profiles.php?username=Dundonald

[Dundonald]

John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> thoughtfully wrote:

>On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 21:31:06 +0000 (UTC), dundonald
><usenet@domain.sickofspam> wrote:
>
>>John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> thoughtfully wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>I gather from the posts that I'm not alone in experiencing
>>>this 'odd' and irritating conundrum. I find that somehow
>>>reassuring, as it has been puzzling me for some time!!
>>
>>I can chin my bodyweight comfortably, but I can
>>pulldown more.
>
>On a geared pull-down machine?

Hell I don't know I just stick the pin in the weight and pull
the damm thing. :)

--
http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com Track your progress on-line
free, no pop-ups or spam. (thanks Pet) View my profile: (don't
take the proverbial! :) http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com/me-
mber_profiles.php?username=Dundonald

[Anon]

John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
news:<bj7t80ll4gsmirkgv0amr50q8v9fgltish@4ax.com>...
> On 27 Apr 2004 10:05:19 -0700, q_q_anonymous@yahoo.co.uk
> (Anon) wrote:
>
> >John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
> >news:<dg2j80tcij4snjt1c729l0jhvvacvlhddj@4ax.com>...
> >> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:33:52 -0700, Nikolai Michaleski
> >> <nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
> >> >Partho Bhowmick wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for
> >> >> chin-ups vs pull-ups.
> >> >>
> >> >> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body
> >> >> weight for pull-downs, which of the two
> >> >> exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is the better one for
> >> >> widening the lats? What are the pros and cons of each?
> >> >>
> >> >> Regards,
> >> >> PS
> >> >
> >> >Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight,
> >> >pullups are still harder. I think it has to do with
> >> >using momentum on pull downs.
> >> >
> >>
> >> I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to
> >> pull down my own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with
> >> pull-ups, and chins are even easier, in fact I do both
> >> with additional weight on a weight belt.
> >>
> >> However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine,
> >> I have no idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In
> >> order to attempt bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar
> >> and by trial and error, adjust the weight until I
> >> counterbalance the load.
> >>
> >> At that counter-balanced weight level there is no way I
> >> can budge the weight when I attempt a pull-down!
> >>
> >> TFIF!! ;o)
> >
> >
> >That's interesting. What I used to do 'cos im so light, is
> >I strap myself in! wrap a belt over my lap and around the
> >bench. I stopped using the pull down machine because the
> >gearing is such that an elephant could stand on the weights
> >and a little girl could pull the thing down (if she's
> >strapped in). Well, that's a slight exaggeration, but it's
> >too easy for the average couch potato, even with a fat guy
> >standing on the weights.
>
> I suggest that we are discussing different machines.

I mean one of these
http://www.paulchekseminars.com/articles.cfm?select=10

are that guy's knees are under that thing to stop him
taking off?

As you can see, i don't know much about these machines, I
don't use them(and wouldn't as it seems that there's a
concensus on this newsgroup not to use them). Only started
exercising last week after reading about different muscles and
the exercises that stimulate them, from the exrx site. At the
moment, my bed is my bench. I don't have a spotter so I keep
the intensity low enough that I don't mess up the lying tricep
extension(a.k.a. the skull crusher / nose breaker)!

Please bare the above paragraph in mind if I display my
ignorance! But I'm not ashamed, because people have made
sillier mistakes in this newsgroup!

[John Hudso]

On 28 Apr 2004 14:23:20 -0700, q_q_anonymous@yahoo.co.uk
(Anon) wrote:

>John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
>news:<bj7t80ll4gsmirkgv0amr50q8v9fgltish@4ax.com>...
>> On 27 Apr 2004 10:05:19 -0700, q_q_anonymous@yahoo.co.uk
>> (Anon) wrote:
>>
>> >John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
>> >news:<dg2j80tcij4snjt1c729l0jhvvacvlhddj@4ax.com>...
>> >> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:33:52 -0700, Nikolai Michaleski
>> >> <nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
>> >> >Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for
>> >> >> chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body
>> >> >> weight for pull-downs, which of the two
>> >> >> exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is the better one
>> >> >> for widening the lats? What are the pros and cons of
>> >> >> each?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Regards,
>> >> >> PS
>> >> >
>> >> >Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight,
>> >> >pullups are still harder. I think it has to do with
>> >> >using momentum on pull downs.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible
>> >> to pull down my own bodyweight, yet I have no problem
>> >> with pull-ups, and chins are even easier, in fact I do
>> >> both with additional weight on a weight belt.
>> >>
>> >> However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down
>> >> machine, I have no idea what weight I am actually
>> >> pulling down. In order to attempt bodyweight, I hang on
>> >> the pull down bar and by trial and error, adjust the
>> >> weight until I counterbalance the load.
>> >>
>> >> At that counter-balanced weight level there is no way I
>> >> can budge the weight when I attempt a pull-down!
>> >>
>> >> TFIF!! ;o)
>> >
>> >
>> >That's interesting. What I used to do 'cos im so light, is
>> >I strap myself in! wrap a belt over my lap and around the
>> >bench. I stopped using the pull down machine because the
>> >gearing is such that an elephant could stand on the
>> >weights and a little girl could pull the thing down (if
>> >she's strapped in). Well, that's a slight exaggeration,
>> >but it's too easy for the average couch potato, even with
>> >a fat guy standing on the weights.
>>
>> I suggest that we are discussing different machines.
>
>I mean one of these
>http://www.paulchekseminars.com/articles.cfm?select=10
>
>are that guy's knees are under that thing to stop him
>taking off?
>
>As you can see, i don't know much about these machines, I
>don't use them(and wouldn't as it seems that there's a
>concensus on this newsgroup not to use them). Only started
>exercising last week after reading about different muscles
>and the exercises that stimulate them, from the exrx site. At
>the moment, my bed is my bench. I don't have a spotter so I
>keep the intensity low enough that I don't mess up the lying
>tricep extension(a.k.a. the skull crusher / nose breaker)!
>
>Please bare the above paragraph in mind if I display my
>ignorance! But I'm not ashamed, because people have made
>sillier mistakes in this newsgroup!

I'm not suggesting for one moment that you have done anything
to be ashamed of, or that you have been silly. On the
contrary, I am grateful to you for taking the time to research
the topic and offer your explanation.

The machine to which you have provided the link explains why
you would find your own bodyweight to easy to lift. It is to
do with the blocks and pulleys providing purchase through
mechanical advantage, which is best explained here:

http://www.harken.com/blocks/taclpwr.php

I haven't got a picture of the Lat Pull-Down machine I use on
my web site, but here is one of the Low Pulley machine, which
is very similar, sans the seat and knee pad restraint:

http://www.fitnwell.net/Low%20pulley.jpg

You will see that there is nowhere near the blocks and
pulleys, and the type of gearing probably works to a
mechanical disadvantage.

This may explain the apparent discrepancies.

[Bc]

Jeff Finlayson <jfnlayson@hiwaaay.not> wrote in message
news:<HwtDJG.I2p@news.boeing.com>...
> Sir Noel Plum wrote:
>
> > With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount
> > the entire weight of your forearms/hands and half the
> > weight of your upper arms so with your bodyweight
> > pulldowns you are probably pulling a stone or so more
> > than when you chin.
>
> The lat pulldown bar, forearms and part of upper arms serve
> as counter weights on lat PDs. So the weight difference
> between the 2 exercises should be twice this amount if
> everything else were the same.

It seems like the gang missed this response, but I just read
the whole thread and I think Jeff nailed it. There's also the
very slightly increasing weight of the cable helping you as
the bar progresses down if you want to get technical.

Another difference between pulldowns and chins is that bracing
your thighs against the pads allows you to totally tighten
your lower body and abdominal musculature against the pull,
which might provide more support for the pulling muscles of
the back and arms via a more rigid body. Of course, this only
counts if your body would otherwise be floating up without the
pads, but if it's not, then why are you jamming your legs
under there anyway? Try turning around on the seat and just
sitting there to see if you can pull down the same weight.

I have used a pully machine w/o the bench or the
corresponding hold-down pads for your legs. Instead, you sit
on the floor, put some weight in your lap, and pull down from
there. It does give you a sense of the weight needed to keep
you on the ground while pulling the bar down to you. Trouble
is, a lot of the crossover-style stacks don't go high enough
for this to be a useful exercise, so you need to find a heavy
enough stack to try it.

- bc

[August Pam]

"Sir Noel Plum" <sirnoelplum@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1083008975.26324.0@lotis.uk.clara.net...
>
> "sooky grumper" <sookygrumper@fishies_.com> wrote in message
> news:408d4c57$1@quokka.wn.com.au...
> > Sir Noel Plum wrote:
> > > "sooky grumper" <sookygrumper@fishies_.com> wrote in
> > > message news:408baeb5@quokka.wn.com.au...
> > >
> > >>Sir Noel Plum wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>"John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
> > >>>news:0bol809jg3dqigltboi966k8m8kqlgv5ss@4ax.com...
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully"
<neil.simpson@virgin.net>
> > >>>>wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my
> > >>>>weight on
the
> > >>>>overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I
> > >>>>think
equals my
> > >>>>own weight, and then adjust up or down, by releasing,
> > >>>>earthing
out,
> > >>>>and putting the pin either higher or lower, until I
> > >>>>find I can
hang
> > >>>>there suspended going neither up nor down!!
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull
> > >>>>it down
seated,
> > >>>>knees under the padded restraint, while I strain and
> > >>>>grunt like
a
> > >>>>fucking idiot.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
> > >>>>
> > >>>>HAGW!! ;o)
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount
> > >>>the entire
weight
> > >
> > > of
> > >
> > >>>your forearms/hands and half the weight of your upper
> > >>>arms so
with your
> > >>>bodyweight pulldowns you are probably pulling a stone
> > >>>or so more
than
> > >
> > > when
> > >
> > >>>you chin.
> > >>
> > >>Think about that just a little more please...
> > >>
> > >
> > > Okay.
> > >
> > > I've thought about it a little more. Now what?
> >
> > Well, while the forearms and hands don't move during
chinups/pullups,
> > they, along with the upper arms, counterbalance some of
> > the weight during pulldowns because as you're trying to
> > pull your arms down, gravity is to. And as gravity is a
> > constant on both exercises
(unless
> > you're in space, lifting on a mountain top, or lifting
> > onboard an aircraft at 48,000 ft...), by your reasoning
> > pulldowns should
actually
> > be easier.
> >
> I take your point: I was wrong, I was talking shit.
>
> Rethinking the whole thing I'm not sure (by my reasoning)
> pulldowns
are
> easier or harder, they should be the same in terms of the
> amount of
weight
> actually lifted. How about this:
>
> Let us assume the poster weighs 80kg of which his forearms
> weigh 40kg,
his
> legs weigh 40kg and the rest of his body is weightless
> (unlikely but
it
> uncomplicates things). For a pull-up the poster would
> effectively have
to
> lift 40 kg only, his forearms remaining stationary and only
> his heavy
legs
> being lifted. For the pulldown the legs remain
> stationary and his
massive
> forearms effectively counterbalance 40kg (half) of the
> weight he is
trying
> to shift effectively leaving 40kg to be hoisted upward. In
> both cases
the
> weight of the forearms can be deducted from the load that
> the poster
is
> experiencing.
>
> What do you reckon?
>
> SNP.

I get the poster must have a hell of a grip but, if the
body between his legs and his forearms is massless, how is
he pulling 40 kg.? I mean, no way could he be that strong
with zero relevant musculature!

August Pamplona
--
The waterfall in Java is not wet.
- omegazero2003 on m.f.w.

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[Jeff Finla]

Jeff Finlayson wrote:
> Sir Noel Plum wrote:
>
> > With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount
> > the entire weight of your forearms/hands and half the
> > weight of your upper arms so with your bodyweight
> > pulldowns you are probably pulling a stone or so more
> > than when you chin.
>
> The lat pulldown bar, forearms and part of upper arms serve
> as counter weights on lat PDs. So the weight difference
> between the 2 exercises should be twice this amount if
> everything else were the same.

I counted the bar twice there. It should be twice the forearm
& part of upper arm weight plus the lat PD bar.