We lost a real hero

[Robert Sch]

Pat Tilman died in Afghanistan. For those who don't know who
Pat was, he was a former NFL safety for the AZ Cardinals who
gave up an almost 4 million dollar contract after 9/11 to go
fight for our freedoms in the US. This is someone who really
stepped up to the plate and paid the ultimate price. They
have not released any details yet, but he was originally
deployed to Iraq as an Army Ranger, but was in Afghanistan
when he died.

--
remove 5 2s to despam my e mail

[Moosef]

He did not die for our freedom you asshole, he was killed by
ignorant Muslim fuckheads while attempting to give them
freedom, a concept they do not understand! FUCK IRAQ and the
Iraqi people!

But what a Ture example of an American Hero, and
American Values!

Robert Schuh <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
news:408924CD.6FBB2B4A@robschuh.com...
> Pat Tilman died in Afghanistan. For those who don't know who
> Pat was, he was a former NFL safety for the AZ Cardinals who
> gave up an almost 4 million dollar contract after 9/11 to go
> fight for our freedoms in the US. This is someone who really
> stepped up to the plate and paid the ultimate price. They
> have not released any details yet, but he was originally
> deployed to Iraq as an Army Ranger, but was in Afghanistan
> when he died.
>
> --
> remove 5 2s to despam my e mail

[Jim Ranier]

"Robert Schuh" <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
news:408924CD.6FBB2B4A@robschuh.com...
> Pat Tilman died in Afghanistan. For those who don't know who
> Pat was, he was a former NFL safety for the AZ Cardinals who
> gave up an almost 4 million dollar contract after 9/11 to go
> fight for our freedoms in the US. This is someone who really
> stepped up to the plate and paid the ultimate price. They
> have not released any details yet, but he was originally
> deployed to Iraq as an Army Ranger, but was in Afghanistan
> when he died.
>

Very sad. Sounds like he was an extraordinary person - brains,
toughness and integrity.

[Mapp]

Robert Schuh <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
news:408924CD.6FBB2B4A@robschuh.com...
> Pat Tilman died in Afghanistan. For those who don't know who
> Pat was, he was a former NFL safety for the AZ Cardinals who
> gave up an almost 4 million dollar contract after 9/11 to go
> fight for our freedoms in the US. This is someone who really
> stepped up to the plate and paid the ultimate price. They
> have not released any details yet, but he was originally
> deployed to Iraq as an Army Ranger, but was in Afghanistan
> when he died.
>
> --
> remove 5 2s to despam my e mail
>
>

Tillman rocks. A true, brave, self-sacrificing american.

whit

[Keith Hobm]

In article <5Oaic.27601$dZ1.27468@fed1read04>, "Moosef"
<Moosef@rsbytes.com> wrote:

> He did not die for our freedom you asshole, he was killed by
> ignorant Muslim fuckheads while attempting to give them
> freedom, a concept they do not understand! FUCK IRAQ and the
> Iraqi people!
>
> But what a Ture example of an American Hero, and
> American Values!
>
> Robert Schuh <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
> news:408924CD.6FBB2B4A@robschuh.com...
> > Pat Tilman died in Afghanistan. For those who don't know
> > who Pat was, he was a former NFL safety for the AZ
> > Cardinals who gave up an almost 4 million dollar contract
> > after 9/11 to go fight for our freedoms in the US. This is
> > someone who really stepped up to the plate and paid the
> > ultimate price. They have not released any details yet,
> > but he was originally deployed to Iraq as an Army Ranger,
> > but was in Afghanistan when he died.

He died in Afghanistan you idiot. A country which is
supporting the USA in an attempt to eliminate a fringe group
of extremists who happen to be Muslim. And who decided to fly
some planes into NY buildings, you may recall. Among other
atrocities.

Just like a fringe group of Waco extremists happened to be
Christian.

They are not fighting for freedom in Afghanistan - they have
already done that without American involvement.

And none of this matters much anyhow. His country called - he
stepped to the plate and Rob admires that. Rightly so.

--
Dawn's cold kiss calls me Forth I creep, blindly
stumbling Joy: Morning workouts. Hugh Beyer's 'Haiku On
Returning To Weights'

[Muscle Man]

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:39:00 -0700, "Moosef"
<Moosef@rsbytes.com> wrote:

>He did not die for our freedom you asshole, he was killed by
>ignorant Muslim fuckheads while attempting to give them
>freedom, a concept they do not understand!

We aren't giving them freedom. We're just making it safe to
build a pipeline from Burma through Afghanistan.

They haven't had any elections. We have armed patrols in the
streets shooting anyone. It's worse now than it was before.

>FUCK IRAQ and the Iraqi people!
>

Then let's do like your Daddy shoulda and pull out before it
gets worse.

[Brux Brule]

"Moosef" <Moosef@rsbytes.com> wrote in message
news:5Oaic.27601$dZ1.27468@fed1read04...
> He did not die for our freedom you asshole, he was killed by
> ignorant
Muslim
> fuckheads while attempting to give them freedom, a concept
> they do not understand! FUCK IRAQ and the Iraqi people!

he was in Afghanistan....not Iraq.

[damifino]

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:02:52 GMT, "mapp" <mapp@home.net>
wrote:

>
>Robert Schuh <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
>news:408924CD.6FBB2B4A@robschuh.com...
>> Pat Tilman died in Afghanistan. For those who don't know
>> who Pat was, he was a former NFL safety for the AZ
>> Cardinals who gave up an almost 4 million dollar contract
>> after 9/11 to go fight for our freedoms in the US. This is
>> someone who really stepped up to the plate and paid the
>> ultimate price. They have not released any details yet, but
>> he was originally deployed to Iraq as an Army Ranger, but
>> was in Afghanistan when he died.
>>
>> --
>> remove 5 2s to despam my e mail
>>
>>
>
>Tillman rocks. A true, brave, self-sacrificing american.
>
>whit

Absolutely

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/23/sports/23CND-NFL.html?hp=&p-
agewanted=all&position= Former N.F.L. Player Killed in
Afghanistan By KIRK SEMPLE

Published: April 23, 2004

Pat Tillman, who walked away from a successful career in the
National Football League in 2002 to join the Army, was killed
in fighting in Afghanistan, the league and his former team,
the Arizona Cardinals, said today.

Tillman, 27, was killed on Thursday during an operation in
Afghanistan near the Pakistan border, where he was serving
with the elite Army Rangers, The Associated Press and CNN
reported. Some members of the Rangers have been hunting for Al
Qaeda and Taliban fighters in that region.

The United States Central Command and the Pentagon declined to
comment on the reports, but the White House issued a statement
calling Tillman, who had chosen the Army over a
multimillion-dollar football contract, "an inspiration both on
and off the football field."

"As with all who have made the ultimate sacrifice in the war
on terror," the statement said, "his family is in the thoughts
and prayers of the president and Mrs. Bush."

Central Command acknowledged that one American soldier was
killed and two were wounded Thursday night in an ambush "near
the village of Sperah, 40 kilometers Southwest of Khowst" in
eastern Afghanistan, but it did not name any of the soldiers.
It said the attackers fled.

The unit was patrolling one of the most dangerous areas of
Afghanistan, in a valley that Al Qaeda and Taliban forces have
used to infiltrate Afghanistan from Pakistan. American forces
have been on special alert over recent weeks, watching for Al
Qaeda and other fighters eluding Pakistani security forces on
the other side of the border.

At a televised news conference today, the Cardinals' vice
president, Michael Bidwill, called Tillman "a hero."

"There are very few people who would have the courage to do
what he did," Bidwill said. He added, smiling slightly, that
he had hoped Tillman "would finish his tour of duty and come
back and we'd make another offer."

Condolences and praise poured forth from former teammates and
opponents. Defensive tackle Corey Sears of the Houston Texans,
who played with Tillman on the Cardinals from 1999 to 2000,
said: "All the guys that complain about it being too hot or
they don't have enough money, that's not real life. A real
life thing is he died for what he believed in."

A graduate of Arizona State University, Tillman, a safety,
played for four seasons with the Arizona Cardinals. But as an
unrestricted free agent in 2002, he turned town a three-year,
$3.6 million contract offer from the Cardinals and enlisted in
the Army with his brother Kevin, a former minor league
baseball player in the Cleveland organization. Both intended
to become Army Rangers.

In March 2003, The Arizona Republic reported the brothers'
first deployment, saying that it was probably to the Middle
East. They had been stationed at Fort Lewis, Wash., as part of
the 2,000-strong 75th Ranger Regiment, a rapid-deployment,
light infantry force and one of the more storied military
organizations in the United States. In December, the newspaper
said they had served in "Operation Iraqi Freedom" and were
expected to return to the Middle East soon.

Tillman's death brings to 39 the number of American combat
deaths in Afghanistan since the American-led invasion in
October 2001.

Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, who was a prisoner
of war during the Vietnam War, issued a statement today
calling Tillman an "inspiration" and hailing his "unexpected
choice of duty to his country over the riches and other
comforts of celebrity."

Tillman assiduously guarded his privacy and never publicly
discussed his reasons for abandoning football for the
military. He was concerned that his decision would be
interpreted as a publicity stunt.

Reporters were left to pull together anecdotes and insight
culled from other sources.

Close friends of Tillman's maintained that he had been deeply
moved by the terror attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

"I don't think he will ever share with anyone why exactly he
did it," Mark Brand, Arizona State's associate athletic
director and a friend of Tillman's, said in an interview in
2002 - about the time Tillman began basic training at Fort
Benning, Ga. "I've known him for seven years and I don't know.
I think Sept. 11 really affected him. But again he won't talk
about specifically why."

Cardinals Coach Dave McGinnis said in 2002 that Tillman "said
there were personal reasons" for joining. "He didn't want to
divulge them to me, and I didn't press him on it," he said. "I
respect his decision. I think it's honorable."

Tillman made his plans known on joining the Army shortly after
returning from his honeymoon in 2002. His wife, Marie, was
reported to have supported his decision.

Rangers are often among the first military forces to arrive at
a current or potential battle, securing airfields, blowing up
or securing railways and bridges or simply performing
reconnaissance.

Many of their missions have become compelling tales of
bravery; one - a mission in Somalia in 1993 - was
documented in the book "Black Hawk Down" and in the movie
of the same name.

Few colleges recruited Tillman - he was just a shade over 5
feet 10 inches tall and weighed 200 pounds - and he received
the last athletic scholarship at Arizona State.

Because Tillman lacked great speed and was on the small side
for a big-time college football program, there seemed to be
little chance of his becoming more than a simple role player.
But he evolved into a star linebacker known for hard hits, and
in his senior season was named Pacific-10 Conference defensive
player of the year.

As Tillman's skills grew at Arizona State, he began to display
extreme confidence. During a team meeting one season, Brand
recalled, his defensive coordinator, Phil Snow, showed the
defensive unit a scheme he planned to use against an opponent
that week.

Tillman raised his hand and said: "That defense is terrible.
It won't work."

"Why not?" a surprised Snow asked.

"Because I'm not in it," Tillman responded.

He once told Arizona State teammates that he was going to be a
millionaire by the time he was 30. He was. In his freshman
year, he said his grades throughout college would be
excellent. They were. Tillman graduated with a degree in
marketing and a 3.8 grade-point average.

Tillman even forecast an N.F.L. career to friends. The
Cardinals selected him in the seventh round of the 1998 draft
- the 226th pick over all - and the odds were against his
making it. He converted to safety, and in the 2000 season set
a team record with 224 tackles.

In 2001 he was offered $9 million over five years to play for
the St. Louis Rams. He chose to re-sign with the Cardinals for
less money.

One of Tillman's last surprises came during the Army
recruiting process. Since Tillman had a college degree, he was
offered the chance to go through the officer-training program
before proceeding on his attempted Rangers career track.
Tillman declined, telling Army officials he wanted to start at
the bottom and work his way up.

Carolotta Gall contributed reporting from Afghanistan for
this report.

[Robert Sch]

Keith Hobman wrote:

> In article <5Oaic.27601$dZ1.27468@fed1read04>, "Moosef"
> <Moosef@rsbytes.com> wrote:
>
> > He did not die for our freedom you asshole, he was killed
> > by ignorant Muslim fuckheads while attempting to give them
> > freedom, a concept they do not understand! FUCK IRAQ and
> > the Iraqi people!
> >
> > But what a Ture example of an American Hero, and American
> > Values!
> >
> > Robert Schuh <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
> > news:408924CD.6FBB2B4A@robschuh.com...
> > > Pat Tilman died in Afghanistan. For those who don't know
> > > who Pat was, he was a former NFL safety for the AZ
> > > Cardinals who gave up an almost 4 million dollar
> > > contract after 9/11 to go fight for our freedoms in the
> > > US. This is someone who really stepped up to the plate
> > > and paid the ultimate price. They have not released any
> > > details yet, but he was originally deployed to Iraq as
> > > an Army Ranger, but was in Afghanistan when he died.
>
> He died in Afghanistan you idiot. A country which is
> supporting the USA in an attempt to eliminate a fringe group
> of extremists who happen to be Muslim. And who decided to
> fly some planes into NY buildings, you may recall. Among
> other atrocities.
>
> Just like a fringe group of Waco extremists happened to be
> Christian.
>
> They are not fighting for freedom in Afghanistan - they have
> already done that without American involvement.
>
> And none of this matters much anyhow. His country called -
> he stepped to the plate and Rob admires that. Rightly so.
>
> --
> Dawn's cold kiss calls me Forth I creep, blindly stumbling
> Joy: Morning workouts. Hugh Beyer's 'Haiku On Returning To
> Weights'

Keith, This guy is an unemployed loser who lives here in
Phoenix who is also mentally ill and probably THE most
pathetic fuck to ever post in Usenet. He should be ignored. He
will do anything to hijack a thread. He keeps forgetting which
of his 40 fake e mail addresses he is posting from too.

--
remove 5 2s to despam my e mail

[Robert Sch]

Muscle Man wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:39:00 -0700, "Moosef"
> <Moosef@rsbytes.com> wrote:
>
> >He did not die for our freedom you asshole, he was killed
> >by ignorant Muslim fuckheads while attempting to give them
> >freedom, a concept they do not understand!
>
> We aren't giving them freedom. We're just making it safe to
> build a pipeline from Burma through Afghanistan.
>
> They haven't had any elections. We have armed patrols in the
> streets shooting anyone. It's worse now than it was before.
>
> >FUCK IRAQ and the Iraqi people!
> >
>
> Then let's do like your Daddy shoulda and pull out before it
> gets worse.

Listen you anonymous coward, don't hijack this thread with
your cowardice.

--
remove 5 2s to despam my e mail

[Muscle Man]

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 09:50:03 -0600, khobman@sasktel.net (Keith
Hobman) wrote:

>Just like a fringe group of Waco extremists happened to be
>Christian.
>
>They are not fighting for freedom in Afghanistan - they have
>already done that without American involvement.
>
>And none of this matters much anyhow. His country called - he
>stepped to the plate and Rob admires that. Rightly so.

Exactly. right or wrong, he died at his country's call
.that's better than most of the lardbutt neo-cons on this
group will ever do.

He didn't die for Bush or the Republican party, but for
nationalism and our constituion, even if our Prsident isn't
following it.

[Adam Fahy]

Muscle Man wrote:

> We aren't giving them freedom. We're just making it safe to
> build a pipeline from Burma through Afghanistan.

Again, you are absolutely incorrect.

-Adam

[Jmt]

Muscle Man wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:39:00 -0700, "Moosef"
> <Moosef@rsbytes.com> wrote:
>
>
>>He did not die for our freedom you asshole, he was killed by
>>ignorant Muslim fuckheads while attempting to give them
>>freedom, a concept they do not understand!
>
>
> We aren't giving them freedom. We're just making it safe to
> build a pipeline from Burma through Afghanistan.
>
> They haven't had any elections. We have armed patrols in the
> streets shooting anyone. It's worse now than it was before.
>
>
>
>
>
>>FUCK IRAQ and the Iraqi people!
>>
>
>
> Then let's do like your Daddy shoulda and pull out
> before it gets

Dear M+M; You mentioned, "We're just making it safe to build a
> pipeline from Burma through Afghanistan"

If the OilCo's were behind this, it would have been done a
hell of a lot more efficiently. Fill'erUp???; jmt

> worse.

[Mapp]

Muscle Man <stars@modempool.com> wrote in message
news:KkOJQLqtPGD8AiSjHuhQQn5P1ti=@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:39:00 -0700, "Moosef"
> <Moosef@rsbytes.com> wrote:
>
> >He did not die for our freedom you asshole, he was killed
> >by ignorant
Muslim
> >fuckheads while attempting to give them freedom, a concept
> >they do not understand!
>
> We aren't giving them freedom. We're just making it safe to
> build a pipeline from Burma through Afghanistan.
>

rubbish

> They haven't had any elections. We have armed patrols in the
> streets shooting anyone. It's worse now than it was before.
>

then why do the MAJORITY of iraqis support the ouster of SH.

SH killed, tortured, and raped people who dared to disagree
with him, his policies, or who just pissed him off.

in oh so many ways, it is MUCH better than it was before,
not worse.

whit

>
>
>
> >FUCK IRAQ and the Iraqi people!
> >
>
> Then let's do like your Daddy shoulda and pull out before it
> gets worse.

[Moosef]

Rob, I am not Lardo! You however are an asshole, and a misfit,
and should never try to control anything except the tweezers
and magnifying glass you use to jerk off that pathetic
shrivelled noodle you call a dick! Hijack my next load of shit
as it drops out my ass and passed your warm, sperm laden lips,
and into your cocksucking mouth!

Moosef

Robert Schuh <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
news:4089382D.CF3058D@robschuh.com...
> Muscle Man wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:39:00 -0700, "Moosef"
> > <Moosef@rsbytes.com> wrote:
> >
> > >He did not die for our freedom you asshole, he was killed
> > >by ignorant
Muslim
> > >fuckheads while attempting to give them freedom, a
> > >concept they do not understand!
> >
> > We aren't giving them freedom. We're just making it safe
> > to build a pipeline from Burma through Afghanistan.
> >
> > They haven't had any elections. We have armed patrols in
> > the streets shooting anyone. It's worse now than it was
> > before.
> >
> > >FUCK IRAQ and the Iraqi people!
> > >
> >
> > Then let's do like your Daddy shoulda and pull out before
> > it gets worse.
>
> Listen you anonymous coward, don't hijack this thread with
> your cowardice.
>
>
> --
> remove 5 2s to despam my e mail

[Richard Br]

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:41:15 GMT, Adam Fahy
<mailme@myobligatory.com> wrote:

>Muscle Man wrote:
>
>> We aren't giving them freedom. We're just making it safe to
>> build a pipeline from Burma through Afghanistan.
>
>Again, you are absolutely incorrect.
>
>
>-Adam

Not Burma?

[Mapp]

Muscle Man <stars@modempool.com> wrote in message
news:tUOJQLX1TEQQGWrI2sVPWcvIYIfk@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 09:50:03 -0600, khobman@sasktel.net
> (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>
>
> >Just like a fringe group of Waco extremists happened to be
> >Christian.
> >
> >They are not fighting for freedom in Afghanistan - they
> >have already done that without American involvement.
> >
> >And none of this matters much anyhow. His country called -
> >he stepped to the plate and Rob admires that. Rightly so.
>
>
> Exactly. right or wrong, he died at his country's call
> .that's better than most of the lardbutt neo-cons on this
> group will ever do.
>

you never miss an opportunity for cheap, partisan, shots.

especially when they are rubbish.

this is about TILLMAN who was a hero (i posted something about
his heroism when it first became known many many months ago)
and is a hero.

and this is MFW. there are few lardbutts here. they call
themselves POWERLIFTERS. :)

whit

> He didn't die for Bush or the Republican party, but for
> nationalism and our constituion, even if our Prsident isn't
> following it.

[Gooserider]

"Adam Fahy" <mailme@myobligatory.com> wrote in message
news:frdic.28979$635.7364@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...
> Muscle Man wrote:
>
> > We aren't giving them freedom. We're just making it safe
> > to build a pipeline from Burma through Afghanistan.
>
> Again, you are absolutely incorrect.

But we have restored opium production to pre-Taliban levels,
so that's something....

[Jmt]

Dear Super; If you hurry, JohnsHopkins gives PityLobotomies on
Fridays... 9 Icepicks, no waiting; jmt

Moosef wrote:

> Rob, I am not Lardo! You however are an asshole, and a
> misfit, and should never try to control anything except the
> tweezers and magnifying glass you use to jerk off that
> pathetic shrivelled noodle you call a dick! Hijack my next
> load of shit as it drops out my ass and passed your warm,
> sperm laden lips, and into your cocksucking mouth!
>
> Moosef
>
>
> Robert Schuh <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
> news:4089382D.CF3058D@robschuh.com...
>
>>Muscle Man wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:39:00 -0700, "Moosef"
>>><Moosef@rsbytes.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>He did not die for our freedom you asshole, he was killed
>>>>by ignorant
>
> Muslim
>
>>>>fuckheads while attempting to give them freedom, a concept
>>>>they do not understand!
>>>
>>>We aren't giving them freedom. We're just making it safe to
>>>build a pipeline from Burma through Afghanistan.
>>>
>>>They haven't had any elections. We have armed patrols in
>>>the streets shooting anyone. It's worse now than it was
>>>before.
>>>
>>>
>>>>FUCK IRAQ and the Iraqi people!
>>>>
>>>
>>>Then let's do like your Daddy shoulda and pull out before
>>>it gets worse.
>>
>>Listen you anonymous coward, don't hijack this thread with
>>your cowardice.
>>
>>
>>--
>>remove 5 2s to despam my e mail
>>
>>
>

[Larry Hodg]

"jmt" <jmt@shawneelink.net> wrote in message
news:c6bik0$aadk9$1@ID-46790.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Dear Super; If you hurry, JohnsHopkins gives PityLobotomies
> on Fridays... 9 Icepicks, no waiting; jmt
>
> Moosef wrote:
>
> > Rob, I am not Lardo! You however are an asshole, and a
> > misfit, and
should
> > never try to control anything except the tweezers and
> > magnifying glass
you
> > use to jerk off that pathetic shrivelled noodle you call a
> > dick! Hijack my next load of shit as it drops out my ass
> > and passed your warm, sperm laden lips, and into your
> > cocksucking mouth!
> >
> > Moosef
> >
> >
> > Robert Schuh <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
> > news:4089382D.CF3058D@robschuh.com...
> >
> >>Muscle Man wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:39:00 -0700, "Moosef"
> >>><Moosef@rsbytes.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>He did not die for our freedom you asshole, he was
> >>>>killed by ignorant
> >
> > Muslim
> >
> >>>>fuckheads while attempting to give them freedom, a
> >>>>concept they do not understand!
> >>>
> >>>We aren't giving them freedom. We're just making it safe
> >>>to build a pipeline from Burma through Afghanistan.
> >>>
> >>>They haven't had any elections. We have armed patrols in
> >>>the streets shooting anyone. It's worse now than it was
> >>>before.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>FUCK IRAQ and the Iraqi people!
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>Then let's do like your Daddy shoulda and pull out before
> >>>it gets worse.
> >>
> >>Listen you anonymous coward, don't hijack this thread
> >>with your
cowardice.
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>remove 5 2s to despam my e mail

I agree with Tinkerbelle that we should honor him. He should
be held up as an example of what has made America great.

Moosef, even though he's colorful with his comments, has a
valid point underneath. Namely, the Iraqi people don't seem to
be stepping up to the plate and fighting against those that
would take their freedom again. Bill O'Reilly has touched on
this numerous times. From all appearances, they don't seem to
want to sacrifice their own blood to win their freedom. I
question whether Islam can embrace Democracy and coexist.

-Larry

[Robert Sch]

Larry Hodges wrote:

> "jmt" <jmt@shawneelink.net> wrote in message
> news:c6bik0$aadk9$1@ID-46790.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > Dear Super; If you hurry, JohnsHopkins gives
> > PityLobotomies on Fridays... 9 Icepicks, no waiting; jmt
> >
> > Moosef wrote:
> >
> > > Rob, I am not Lardo! You however are an asshole, and a
> > > misfit, and
> should
> > > never try to control anything except the tweezers and
> > > magnifying glass
> you
> > > use to jerk off that pathetic shrivelled noodle you call
> > > a dick! Hijack my next load of shit as it drops out my
> > > ass and passed your warm, sperm laden lips, and into
> > > your cocksucking mouth!
> > >
> > > Moosef
> > >
> > >
> > > Robert Schuh <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
> > > news:4089382D.CF3058D@robschuh.com...
> > >
> > >>Muscle Man wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:39:00 -0700, "Moosef"
> > >>><Moosef@rsbytes.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>He did not die for our freedom you asshole, he was
> > >>>>killed by ignorant
> > >
> > > Muslim
> > >
> > >>>>fuckheads while attempting to give them freedom, a
> > >>>>concept they do not understand!
> > >>>
> > >>>We aren't giving them freedom. We're just making it
> > >>>safe to build a pipeline from Burma through
> > >>>Afghanistan.
> > >>>
> > >>>They haven't had any elections. We have armed patrols
> > >>>in the streets shooting anyone. It's worse now than it
> > >>>was before.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>FUCK IRAQ and the Iraqi people!
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>Then let's do like your Daddy shoulda and pull out
> > >>>before it gets worse.
> > >>
> > >>Listen you anonymous coward, don't hijack this thread
> > >>with your
> cowardice.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>--
> > >>remove 5 2s to despam my e mail
>
> I agree with Tinkerbelle that we should honor him. He should
> be held up as an example of what has made America great.
>
> Moosef, even though he's colorful with his comments, has a
> valid point underneath. Namely, the Iraqi people don't seem
> to be stepping up to the plate and fighting against those
> that would take their freedom again. Bill O'Reilly has
> touched on this numerous times. From all appearances, they
> don't seem to want to sacrifice their own blood to win their
> freedom. I question whether Islam can embrace Democracy and
> coexist.
>
> -Larry

Larry, I did not start this thread for you to post your
racist comments. You are a perfect example of a true coward
and fraud.

--
remove 5 2s to despam my e mail

[Robert Sch]

Larry Hodges wrote:

> "jmt" <jmt@shawneelink.net> wrote in message
> news:c6bik0$aadk9$1@ID-46790.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > Dear Super; If you hurry, JohnsHopkins gives
> > PityLobotomies on Fridays... 9 Icepicks, no waiting; jmt
> >
> > Moosef wrote:
> >
> > > Rob, I am not Lardo! You however are an asshole, and a
> > > misfit, and
> should
> > > never try to control anything except the tweezers and
> > > magnifying glass
> you
> > > use to jerk off that pathetic shrivelled noodle you call
> > > a dick! Hijack my next load of shit as it drops out my
> > > ass and passed your warm, sperm laden lips, and into
> > > your cocksucking mouth!
> > >
> > > Moosef
> > >
> > >
> > > Robert Schuh <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
> > > news:4089382D.CF3058D@robschuh.com...
> > >
> > >>Muscle Man wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:39:00 -0700, "Moosef"
> > >>><Moosef@rsbytes.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>He did not die for our freedom you asshole, he was
> > >>>>killed by ignorant
> > >
> > > Muslim
> > >
> > >>>>fuckheads while attempting to give them freedom, a
> > >>>>concept they do not understand!
> > >>>
> > >>>We aren't giving them freedom. We're just making it
> > >>>safe to build a pipeline from Burma through
> > >>>Afghanistan.
> > >>>
> > >>>They haven't had any elections. We have armed patrols
> > >>>in the streets shooting anyone. It's worse now than it
> > >>>was before.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>FUCK IRAQ and the Iraqi people!
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>Then let's do like your Daddy shoulda and pull out
> > >>>before it gets worse.
> > >>
> > >>Listen you anonymous coward, don't hijack this thread
> > >>with your
> cowardice.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>--
> > >>remove 5 2s to despam my e mail
>
> I agree with Tinkerbelle that we should honor him. He should
> be held up as an example of what has made America great.
>
> Moosef, even though he's colorful with his comments, has a
> valid point underneath. Namely, the Iraqi people don't seem
> to be stepping up to the plate and fighting against those
> that would take their freedom again. Bill O'Reilly has
> touched on this numerous times. From all appearances, they
> don't seem to want to sacrifice their own blood to win their
> freedom. I question whether Islam can embrace Democracy and
> coexist.
>
> -Larry

Isn't it interesting that you simply don't get that people
like Pat Tillman have given their lives so that idiots like
you can spew your hate and bigotry. One would think that you
would learn something from that and grow up a bit. What a
class less redneck fuck you are Larry.

--
remove 5 2s to despam my e mail

[Chris Whea]

Larry Hodges wrote:
> I question whether Islam can embrace Democracy and coexist.
>

The word "Islam" means submission. A good Muslim is one who is
totally submitted to the will of God as expressed by the
prophet Mohammed through the Koran, and as interpretted by
Mullahs and other religious leaders.

The idea of having a democratic system of government in which
personal opinions can be expressed through the ballot box
flies in the face of the Islamic concept of complete
submission to the will of God.

The first of the 5 pillars of Islam is the expression of the
total unity of God (Allah). This belief is one of the
foundational reasons why in Islamic countries, there is no
separation between "Church and State" as we would call it. God
is one, therefore the system of government and the system of
religion should also be one.

Democracy is based on the western concept that the individual
has a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Freedom of speech is part of the western package.

Islam on the other hand, says that your value as a Muslim is
measured by your unquestioning submission to the will of God.

I do not believe that the Democracy and Islam can
succesfully coexist.

Chris

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long, but the words of
the wise are quiet and few.
--

[Robert Sch]

Chris Whealy wrote:

> Larry Hodges wrote:
> > I question whether Islam can embrace Democracy and
> > coexist.
> >
>
> The word "Islam" means submission. A good Muslim is one who
> is totally submitted to the will of God as expressed by the
> prophet Mohammed through the Koran, and as interpretted by
> Mullahs and other religious leaders.
>
> The idea of having a democratic system of government in
> which personal opinions can be expressed through the ballot
> box flies in the face of the Islamic concept of complete
> submission to the will of God.
>
> The first of the 5 pillars of Islam is the expression of the
> total unity of God (Allah). This belief is one of the
> foundational reasons why in Islamic countries, there is no
> separation between "Church and State" as we would call it.
> God is one, therefore the system of government and the
> system of religion should also be one.
>
> Democracy is based on the western concept that the
> individual has a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of
> happiness. Freedom of speech is part of the western package.
>
> Islam on the other hand, says that your value as a
> Muslim is measured by your unquestioning submission to
> the will of God.
>
> I do not believe that the Democracy and Islam can
> succesfully coexist.
>
> Chris
>
> --
> The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long, but the words
> of the wise are quiet and few.
> --

Why is it that you clowns can't see that this thread is about
honoring a hero and not a place for you to spew your bigoted
racist crap?

--
remove 5 2s to despam my e mail

[Larry Hodg]

"Robert Schuh" <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
news:408949BD.C0BB04B9@robschuh.com...
> Larry Hodges wrote:
>
> > "jmt" <jmt@shawneelink.net> wrote in message
> > news:c6bik0$aadk9$1@ID-46790.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > Dear Super; If you hurry, JohnsHopkins gives
> > > PityLobotomies on Fridays... 9 Icepicks, no waiting; jmt
> > >
> > > Moosef wrote:
> > >
> > > > Rob, I am not Lardo! You however are an asshole, and a
> > > > misfit, and
> > should
> > > > never try to control anything except the tweezers and
> > > > magnifying
glass
> > you
> > > > use to jerk off that pathetic shrivelled noodle you
> > > > call a dick! Hijack my next load of shit as it drops
> > > > out my ass and passed your
warm,
> > > > sperm laden lips, and into your cocksucking mouth!
> > > >
> > > > Moosef
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Robert Schuh <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:4089382D.CF3058D@robschuh.com...
> > > >
> > > >>Muscle Man wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:39:00 -0700, "Moosef"
> > > >>><Moosef@rsbytes.com> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>He did not die for our freedom you asshole, he was
> > > >>>>killed by
ignorant
> > > >
> > > > Muslim
> > > >
> > > >>>>fuckheads while attempting to give them freedom, a
> > > >>>>concept they do
not
> > > >>>>understand!
> > > >>>
> > > >>>We aren't giving them freedom. We're just making it
> > > >>>safe to build a pipeline from Burma through
> > > >>>Afghanistan.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>They haven't had any elections. We have armed patrols
> > > >>>in the
streets
> > > >>>shooting anyone. It's worse now than it was before.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>FUCK IRAQ and the Iraqi people!
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Then let's do like your Daddy shoulda and pull out
> > > >>>before it gets worse.
> > > >>
> > > >>Listen you anonymous coward, don't hijack this thread
> > > >>with your
> > cowardice.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>--
> > > >>remove 5 2s to despam my e mail
> >
> > I agree with Tinkerbelle that we should honor him. He
> > should be held up
as
> > an example of what has made America great.
> >
> > Moosef, even though he's colorful with his comments, has a
> > valid point underneath. Namely, the Iraqi people don't
> > seem to be stepping up to
the
> > plate and fighting against those that would take their
> > freedom again.
Bill
> > O'Reilly has touched on this numerous times. From all
> > appearances, they don't seem to want to sacrifice their
> > own blood to win their freedom. I question whether Islam
> > can embrace Democracy and coexist.
> >
> > -Larry
>
> Larry, I did not start this thread for you to post your
> racist comments. You are
a
> perfect example of a true coward and fraud.

I agree that the thread shouldn't be hijacked Tink. I'll tell
you to eat shit on another one, but not this one.

-Larry

[John Hudso]

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 11:14:01 -0600, Robert Schuh
<rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote:

>Chris Whealy wrote:
>
>> Larry Hodges wrote:
>> > I question whether Islam can embrace Democracy and
>> > coexist.
>> >
>>
>> The word "Islam" means submission. A good Muslim is one who
>> is totally submitted to the will of God as expressed by the
>> prophet Mohammed through the Koran, and as interpretted by
>> Mullahs and other religious leaders.
>>
>> The idea of having a democratic system of government in
>> which personal opinions can be expressed through the ballot
>> box flies in the face of the Islamic concept of complete
>> submission to the will of God.
>>
>> The first of the 5 pillars of Islam is the expression of
>> the total unity of God (Allah). This belief is one of the
>> foundational reasons why in Islamic countries, there is no
>> separation between "Church and State" as we would call it.
>> God is one, therefore the system of government and the
>> system of religion should also be one.
>>
>> Democracy is based on the western concept that the
>> individual has a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of
>> happiness. Freedom of speech is part of the western
>> package.
>>
>> Islam on the other hand, says that your value as a Muslim
>> is measured by your unquestioning submission to the will
>> of God.
>>
>> I do not believe that the Democracy and Islam can
>> succesfully coexist.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> --
>> The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long, but the words
>> of the wise are quiet and few.
>> --
>
>Why is it that you clowns can't see that this thread is about
>honoring a hero and not a place for you to spew your bigoted
>racist crap?

I sympathise with your sentiments Rob, but when last did a
thread at MFW stay on topic for more than about 6 posts?

Have a good week-end!

TFIF!! ;o)

[Saboteur]

Robert Schuh <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
news:<408924CD.6FBB2B4A@robschuh.com>...
> Pat Tilman died in Afghanistan. For those who don't know who
> Pat was, he was a former NFL safety for the AZ Cardinals who
> gave up an almost 4 million dollar contract after 9/11 to go
> fight for our freedoms in the US. This is someone who really
> stepped up to the plate and paid the ultimate price. They
> have not released any details yet, but he was originally
> deployed to Iraq as an Army Ranger, but was in Afghanistan
> when he died.

On 911 , daddy Bush was meeting with BIN LADEN'S brother one
block away from the pentagon why? On 911 Rumsfeld was meeting
with the Pakistani general that wired 100000$ to Mohamed Atta,
Why?. On 911, 5 israelis JEWS were arested by the FBI because
they were celebrating as the tower fells. The five
intelligence and DEMOLITION EXPERT were later deported to
israel,why? www.whatreallyhappened.com

[Dok]

Robert Schuh <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
news:<408924CD.6FBB2B4A@robschuh.com>...
> Pat Tilman died in Afghanistan. For those who don't know who
> Pat was, he was a former NFL safety for the AZ Cardinals who
> gave up an almost 4 million dollar contract after 9/11 to go
> fight for our freedoms in the US. This is someone who really
> stepped up to the plate and paid the ultimate price. They
> have not released any details yet, but he was originally
> deployed to Iraq as an Army Ranger, but was in Afghanistan
> when he died.

While not to take anything away from Tillman's sacrifice, it
is sad that the football player gets the front page news,
while the "regular" dead may get a passing mention as "another
soldier killed" and his/her pic in the local paper. Just
because a jock who turned down a few million $$ gets killed in
battle doesn't make his ultimate sacrifice any more dutiful
than the 699 others killed, or the sacrifices made by hundreds
of other unseen casualties who are maimed with burns,
amputations and disfiguring gunshot and shrapnel wounds. The
"injured soldiers" reported daily in the media do not have
bumps on the head. Honorable men fighting and dying on a
battlefield is nothing new.

Dok

[Karl Hungu]

"Moosef" <Moosef@rsbytes.com> wrote in message
news:5Oaic.27601$dZ1.27468@fed1read04...

> He did not die for our freedom you asshole, he was killed by
> ignorant
Muslim
> fuckheads while attempting to give them freedom, a concept
> they do not understand!

> FUCK IRAQ and the Iraqi people!

Um, Mr. Tillman was killed in Afghanistan . . .

[Karl Hungu]

"saboteur" <saboteur@hushmail.com> wrote in message
news:5aa29b63.0404231737.3451ccb@posting.google.com...
>
> On 911 , daddy Bush was meeting with BIN LADEN'S brother one
> block away from the pentagon why? On 911 Rumsfeld was
> meeting with the Pakistani general that wired 100000$ to
> Mohamed Atta, Why?. On 911, 5 israelis JEWS were arested by
> the FBI because they were celebrating as the tower fells.
> The five intelligence and DEMOLITION EXPERT were later
> deported to israel,why? www.whatreallyhappened.com

You're today's winner: http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html

[Karl Hungu]

"Keith Hobman" <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote in message
news:khobman-2304040950030001@192.168.0.48...

> He died in Afghanistan you idiot. A country which is
> supporting the USA in an attempt to eliminate a fringe group
> of extremists who happen to be Muslim. And who decided to
> fly some planes into NY buildings, you may recall. Among
> other atrocities.
>
> Just like a fringe group of Waco extremists happened to be
> Christian.

But unlike al Qaeda & Co., the Branch Davidians set out to
harm no one.

The comparison is invalid.

[Brandon Be]

"Keith Hobman" <khobman@sasktel.net> wrote in message
news:khobman-2304040950030001@192.168.0.48...
> He died in Afghanistan you idiot. A country which is
> supporting the USA in an attempt to eliminate a fringe group
> of extremists who happen to be Muslim. And who decided to
> fly some planes into NY buildings, you may recall. Among
> other atrocities.
>
> Just like a fringe group of Waco extremists happened to be
> Christian.

That's hardly a fair comparison. What did the Wacans do?

[Moosef]

Robert, since you started your post, all you have done is shit
on everyone who added to it! Fuck you! And Fuck Iraq! Fuck
Afghanastan too! OK?

Moosef

Robert Schuh <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
news:4089374F.8313FBD0@robschuh.com...
> Keith Hobman wrote:
>
> > In article <5Oaic.27601$dZ1.27468@fed1read04>, "Moosef"
> > <Moosef@rsbytes.com> wrote:
> >
> > > He did not die for our freedom you asshole, he was
> > > killed by ignorant
Muslim
> > > fuckheads while attempting to give them freedom, a
> > > concept they do not understand! FUCK IRAQ and the Iraqi
> > > people!
> > >
> > > But what a Ture example of an American Hero, and
> > > American Values!
> > >
> > > Robert Schuh <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
> > > news:408924CD.6FBB2B4A@robschuh.com...
> > > > Pat Tilman died in Afghanistan. For those who don't
> > > > know who Pat
was, he
> > > > was a former NFL safety for the AZ Cardinals who gave
> > > > up an almost 4 million dollar contract after 9/11 to
> > > > go fight for our freedoms in
the
> > > > US. This is someone who really stepped up to the plate
> > > > and paid the ultimate price. They have not released
> > > > any details yet, but he was originally deployed to
> > > > Iraq as an Army Ranger, but was in
Afghanistan
> > > > when he died.
> >
> > He died in Afghanistan you idiot. A country which is
> > supporting the USA
in
> > an attempt to eliminate a fringe group of extremists who
> > happen to be Muslim. And who decided to fly some planes
> > into NY buildings, you may recall. Among other atrocities.
> >
> > Just like a fringe group of Waco extremists happened to be
> > Christian.
> >
> > They are not fighting for freedom in Afghanistan - they
> > have already
done
> > that without American involvement.
> >
> > And none of this matters much anyhow. His country called -
> > he stepped to the plate and Rob admires that. Rightly so.
> >
> > --
> > Dawn's cold kiss calls me Forth I creep, blindly stumbling
> > Joy: Morning workouts. Hugh Beyer's 'Haiku On Returning To
> > Weights'
>
> Keith, This guy is an unemployed loser who lives here in
> Phoenix who is also
mentally ill
> and probably THE most pathetic fuck to ever post in Usenet.
> He should be
ignored.
> He will do anything to hijack a thread. He keeps forgetting
> which of his
40 fake e
> mail addresses he is posting from too.
>
>
> --
> remove 5 2s to despam my e mail

[John M . W]

"mapp" <mapp@home.net> wrote:
>Muscle Man <stars@modempool.com> wrote:
>> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>> >
>> >Just like a fringe group of Waco extremists happened to be
>> >Christian.
>> >
>> >They are not fighting for freedom in Afghanistan - they
>> >have already done that without American involvement.
>> >
>> >And none of this matters much anyhow. His country called -
>> >he stepped to the plate and Rob admires that. Rightly so.
>>
>>
>> Exactly. right or wrong, he died at his country's call
>> .that's better than most of the lardbutt neo-cons on this
>> group will ever do.
>
>you never miss an opportunity for cheap, partisan, shots.
>
>especially when they are rubbish.

I suspect his loss is problematic to MuppetMan and his ilk. He
was someone who gave up big money and sporting fame to take on
a dangerous mission which he believed was right and just.

Guys like MuppetMan and all the other Al Franken clones
pretend to "support our troops," while pissing on their
mission. I doubt that plays very well with the vast majority
of our troops, who are truly dedicated to their cause.

[Proton Sou]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 01:00:06 -0400, John M. Williams
<jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:

>"mapp" <mapp@home.net> wrote:
>>Muscle Man <stars@modempool.com> wrote:
>>> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>>> >
>>> >Just like a fringe group of Waco extremists happened to
>>> >be Christian.
>>> >
>>> >They are not fighting for freedom in Afghanistan - they
>>> >have already done that without American involvement.
>>> >
>>> >And none of this matters much anyhow. His country
>>> >called - he stepped to the plate and Rob admires that.
>>> >Rightly so.
>>>
>>>
>>> Exactly. right or wrong, he died at his country's call
>>> .that's better than most of the lardbutt neo-cons on this
>>> group will ever do.
>>
>>you never miss an opportunity for cheap, partisan, shots.
>>
>>especially when they are rubbish.
>
>I suspect his loss is problematic to MuppetMan and his
>ilk. He was someone who gave up big money and sporting
>fame to take on a dangerous mission which he believed was
>right and just.
>
>Guys like MuppetMan and all the other Al Franken clones
>pretend to "support our troops," while pissing on their
>mission. I doubt that plays very well with the vast majority
>of our troops, who are truly dedicated to their cause.

That could change. I hear there's move on now to reinstate
the draft.

Proton Soup

[John M . W]

Proton Soup <> wrote:
> John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
> wrote:
>>"mapp" <mapp@home.net> wrote:
>>>Muscle Man <stars@modempool.com> wrote:
>>>> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >Just like a fringe group of Waco extremists happened to
>>>> >be Christian.
>>>> >
>>>> >They are not fighting for freedom in Afghanistan - they
>>>> >have already done that without American involvement.
>>>> >
>>>> >And none of this matters much anyhow. His country
>>>> >called - he stepped to the plate and Rob admires that.
>>>> >Rightly so.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Exactly. right or wrong, he died at his country's call
>>>> .that's better than most of the lardbutt neo-cons on this
>>>> group will ever do.
>>>
>>>you never miss an opportunity for cheap, partisan, shots.
>>>
>>>especially when they are rubbish.
>>
>>I suspect his loss is problematic to MuppetMan and his
>>ilk. He was someone who gave up big money and sporting
>>fame to take on a dangerous mission which he believed was
>>right and just.
>>
>>Guys like MuppetMan and all the other Al Franken clones
>>pretend to "support our troops," while pissing on their
>>mission. I doubt that plays very well with the vast majority
>>of our troops, who are truly dedicated to their cause.
>
>That could change. I hear there's move on now to reinstate
>the draft.

Yes, but isn't it odd that the Democrats criticize the mission
of our all-volunteer military services, yet they are the ones
sponsoring the military draft bills? Perhaps they wish to
advance their agenda by sending into harm's way those who are
unwilling to be there.

S.89 - Sen Hollings, Fritz (D-SC)

T.163 - Rep Rangel, Charles (D-NY) Cosponsors: Rep
Abercrombie, Neil (D-HI) Rep Brown, Corrine (D-FL) Rep Clay,
William (D-MO) Rep Conyers, John, Jr. (D-MI) Rep Cummings,
Elijah (D-MD) Rep Hastings, Alcee L. (D-FL) Rep Jackson-Lee,
Sheila (D-TX) Rep Lewis, John (D-GA) Rep McDermott, Jim
(D-WA) Rep Moran, James (D-VA) Rep Norton, Eleanor (D-DC)
Rep Stark, Fortney Pete (D-CA) Rep Velazquez, Nydia (D-NY)

[Brian Link]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 02:05:12 -0400, John M. Williams
<jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:

>Proton Soup <> wrote:
>> John M. Williams
>> <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>>>"mapp" <mapp@home.net> wrote:
>>>>Muscle Man <stars@modempool.com> wrote:
>>>>> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Just like a fringe group of Waco extremists happened to
>>>>> >be Christian.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >They are not fighting for freedom in Afghanistan - they
>>>>> >have already done that without American involvement.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >And none of this matters much anyhow. His country
>>>>> >called - he stepped to the plate and Rob admires that.
>>>>> >Rightly so.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Exactly. right or wrong, he died at his country's call
>>>>> .that's better than most of the lardbutt neo-cons on
>>>>> this group will ever do.
>>>>
>>>>you never miss an opportunity for cheap, partisan, shots.
>>>>
>>>>especially when they are rubbish.
>>>
>>>I suspect his loss is problematic to MuppetMan and his
>>>ilk. He was someone who gave up big money and sporting
>>>fame to take on a dangerous mission which he believed was
>>>right and just.
>>>
>>>Guys like MuppetMan and all the other Al Franken clones
>>>pretend to "support our troops," while pissing on their
>>>mission. I doubt that plays very well with the vast
>>>majority of our troops, who are truly dedicated to
>>>their cause.
>>
>>That could change. I hear there's move on now to reinstate
>>the draft.
>
>Yes, but isn't it odd that the Democrats criticize the
>mission of our all-volunteer military services, yet they are
>the ones sponsoring the military draft bills? Perhaps they
>wish to advance their agenda by sending into harm's way those
>who are unwilling to be there.
>
>S.89 - Sen Hollings, Fritz (D-SC)
>
>H.163 - Rep Rangel, Charles (D-NY) Cosponsors: Rep
> Abercrombie, Neil (D-HI) Rep Brown, Corrine (D-FL) Rep
> Clay, William (D-MO) Rep Conyers, John, Jr. (D-MI) Rep
> Cummings, Elijah (D-MD) Rep Hastings, Alcee L. (D-FL) Rep
> Jackson-Lee, Sheila (D-TX) Rep Lewis, John (D-GA) Rep
> McDermott, Jim (D-WA) Rep Moran, James (D-VA) Rep Norton,
> Eleanor (D-DC) Rep Stark, Fortney Pete (D-CA) Rep
> Velazquez, Nydia (D-NY)

Well, it's a weird corner they've painted themselves into.
Many of these have gone on record complaining about the
unfairness of the all-volunteer army (that it's a majority of
poor, lower-class folks tryin to get skills and make a
living). The only way to remedy that of course is then the
draft, which goes against their dove-like tendencies.

Afghanistan was a just war, imho. Bush was right in going
after Al Qaeda's living room. Tilman was fighting the good
fight, as are many of the cream of our armed forces scurrying
around hills and between AK47 rounds in Afghanistan.

Iraq's another story, but plenty of you know where I
stand on that.

First thing I thought of after 9/11, really, was "omigod..
here comes the draft".. and my son's 15 now.

And I just gotta say, what a damn shame Cheney decided we
needed to move on Iraq. Sucking up all our troop strength and
pasting it there for the indefinite future. But now that we're
there we'll have a helluva time finishing anything with our
forces stretched thin.

Didn't anyone tell em that underneath Saddam was a gigantic,
nascent civil war? Doesn't anyone think of these things on
the right?

Brian Link, Minnesota Countertenor
----------------------------------
"If ever a thing of beauty was to be worshipped a dugong would
be this thing in question."

[Rev. Poind]

In article <40894ED9.25545A67@robschuh.com>, Robert Schuh
<rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote:

> > Democracy is based on the western concept that the
> > individual has a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of
> > happiness. Freedom of speech is part of the western
> > package.
> >
> > Islam on the other hand, says that your value as a Muslim
> > is measured by your unquestioning submission to the will
> > of God.
> >
> > I do not believe that the Democracy and Islam can
> > succesfully coexist.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > --
> > The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long, but the words
> > of the wise are quiet and few.
> > --
>
> Why is it that you clowns can't see that this thread is
> about honoring a hero and not a place for you to spew your
> bigoted racist crap?

You somewhat eleoquently posted a few days ago: "I am entitled
to my opinion as anyone." Exactly where is the bigotry in
Chris' statement? Exactly what race is being defamed? Is
name-calling your only play? It's a public forum. Everyone
else is as entitled to their opinion as you.

RP

[Pete]

"Robert Schuh" <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
news:40894ED9.25545A67@robschuh.com...
> Chris Whealy wrote:
>
> > Larry Hodges wrote:
> > > I question whether Islam can embrace Democracy and
> > > coexist.
> > >
> >
> > The word "Islam" means submission. A good Muslim is one
> > who is totally submitted to the will of God as expressed
> > by the prophet Mohammed through the Koran, and as
> > interpretted by Mullahs and other religious leaders.
> >
> > The idea of having a democratic system of government in
> > which personal opinions can be expressed through the
> > ballot box flies in the face of the Islamic concept of
> > complete submission to the will of God.
> >
> > The first of the 5 pillars of Islam is the expression of
> > the total unity of God (Allah). This belief is one of the
> > foundational reasons why in Islamic countries, there is no
> > separation between "Church and State" as we would call it.
> > God is one, therefore the system of government and the
> > system of religion should also be one.
> >
> > Democracy is based on the western concept that the
> > individual has a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of
> > happiness. Freedom of speech is part of the western
> > package.
> >
> > Islam on the other hand, says that your value as a Muslim
> > is measured by your unquestioning submission to the will
> > of God.
> >
> > I do not believe that the Democracy and Islam can
> > succesfully coexist.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > --
> > The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long, but the words
> > of the wise are quiet and few.
> > --
>
> Why is it that you clowns can't see that this thread is
> about honoring a hero and not a place for you to spew your
> bigoted racist crap?

I'm not trying to be inflammatory here, Rob, but exactly where
is the bigotry and racism in Chris' post? Sounded pretty well
reasoned to me.

Pete

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG
anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.656 /
Virus Database: 421 - Release Date: 4/17/2004

[Proton Sou]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 01:33:55 -0500, Brian Link
<blink@visi.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 02:05:12 -0400, John M. Williams
><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>
>>Proton Soup <> wrote:
>>> John M. Williams <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>"mapp" <mapp@home.net> wrote:
>>>>>Muscle Man <stars@modempool.com> wrote:
>>>>>> khobman@sasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >Just like a fringe group of Waco extremists happened
>>>>>> >to be Christian.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >They are not fighting for freedom in Afghanistan -
>>>>>> >they have already done that without American
>>>>>> >involvement.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >And none of this matters much anyhow. His country
>>>>>> >called - he stepped to the plate and Rob admires that.
>>>>>> >Rightly so.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Exactly. right or wrong, he died at his country's call
>>>>>> .that's better than most of the lardbutt neo-cons on
>>>>>> this group will ever do.
>>>>>
>>>>>you never miss an opportunity for cheap, partisan, shots.
>>>>>
>>>>>especially when they are rubbish.
>>>>
>>>>I suspect his loss is problematic to MuppetMan and his
>>>>ilk. He was someone who gave up big money and sporting
>>>>fame to take on a dangerous mission which he believed was
>>>>right and just.
>>>>
>>>>Guys like MuppetMan and all the other Al Franken clones
>>>>pretend to "support our troops," while pissing on their
>>>>mission. I doubt that plays very well with the vast
>>>>majority of our troops, who are truly dedicated to their
>>>>cause.
>>>
>>>That could change. I hear there's move on now to reinstate
>>>the draft.
>>
>>Yes, but isn't it odd that the Democrats criticize the
>>mission of our all-volunteer military services, yet they are
>>the ones sponsoring the military draft bills? Perhaps they
>>wish to advance their agenda by sending into harm's way
>>those who are unwilling to be there.
>>
>>S.89 - Sen Hollings, Fritz (D-SC)
>>
>>H.163 - Rep Rangel, Charles (D-NY) Cosponsors: Rep
>> Abercrombie, Neil (D-HI) Rep Brown, Corrine (D-FL) Rep
>> Clay, William (D-MO) Rep Conyers, John, Jr. (D-MI) Rep
>> Cummings, Elijah (D-MD) Rep Hastings, Alcee L. (D-FL) Rep
>> Jackson-Lee, Sheila (D-TX) Rep Lewis, John (D-GA) Rep
>> McDermott, Jim (D-WA) Rep Moran, James (D-VA) Rep Norton,
>> Eleanor (D-DC) Rep Stark, Fortney Pete (D-CA) Rep
>> Velazquez, Nydia (D-NY)
>
>Well, it's a weird corner they've painted themselves into.
>Many of these have gone on record complaining about the
>unfairness of the all-volunteer army (that it's a majority of
>poor, lower-class folks tryin to get skills and make a
>living). The only way to remedy that of course is then the
>draft, which goes against their dove-like tendencies.

Yeah, but volunteering was how my dad managed to pay for his
college education (GI Bill). Not many choices existed for a
dirt poor farm boy.

>Afghanistan was a just war, imho. Bush was right in going
>after Al Qaeda's living room. Tilman was fighting the good
>fight, as are many of the cream of our armed forces scurrying
>around hills and between AK47 rounds in Afghanistan.
>
>Iraq's another story, but plenty of you know where I
>stand on that.
>
>First thing I thought of after 9/11, really, was "omigod..
>here comes the draft".. and my son's 15 now.
>
>And I just gotta say, what a damn shame Cheney decided we
>needed to move on Iraq. Sucking up all our troop strength and
>pasting it there for the indefinite future. But now that
>we're there we'll have a helluva time finishing anything with
>our forces stretched thin.
>
>Didn't anyone tell em that underneath Saddam was a gigantic,
>nascent civil war? Doesn't anyone think of these things on
>the right?

So what? Our economy is based on oil. Saddam had already shown
that he has no qualms about invading his neighbors and
stealing their oil. Today Kuwait, tomorrow Iran, Saudi Arabia,
Qatar, ... Eventually, he would have had enough power to be
his own OPEC. He could have cut production low enough to
destroy not only our economy, but send the whole world into a
depression that would make the 1930s look like an age of
prosperity. And of course, the scarcer the world resources,
the higher the number of wars and conflicts everywhere.

Proton Soup

[John M . W]

Brian Link <blink@visi.com> wrote:
>
>And I just gotta say, what a damn shame Cheney decided we
>needed to move on Iraq. Sucking up all our troop strength and
>pasting it there for the indefinite future. But now that
>we're there we'll have a helluva time finishing anything with
>our forces stretched thin.
>
>Didn't anyone tell em that underneath Saddam was a gigantic,
>nascent civil war? Doesn't anyone think of these things on
>the right?

Did you support continued Communist Rule in Eastern Europe,
knowing that the removal of the Iron Fist would give rise to
the same Balkan conflicts that have always existed?

Did you support minority white rule in Africa, knowing that
the withdrawal of white rule would lead to tribal warfare that
has been brewing for centuries?

[Proton Sou]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 01:33:26 -0400, "Rev. Poindexter"
<poindexter@NOSPAMsubgenius.com> wrote:

>In article <40894ED9.25545A67@robschuh.com>, Robert Schuh
><rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote:
>> > Democracy is based on the western concept that the
>> > individual has a right to life, liberty and the pursuit
>> > of happiness. Freedom of speech is part of the western
>> > package.
>> >
>> > Islam on the other hand, says that your value as a Muslim
>> > is measured by your unquestioning submission to the will
>> > of God.
>> >
>> > I do not believe that the Democracy and Islam can
>> > succesfully coexist.
>> >
>> > Chris
>> > --
>> > The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long, but the
>> > words of the wise are quiet and few.
>> > --
>> Why is it that you clowns can't see that this thread is
>> about honoring a hero and not a place for you to spew your
>> bigoted racist crap?
>
>You somewhat eleoquently posted a few days ago: "I am
>entitled to my opinion as anyone." Exactly where is the
>bigotry in Chris' statement? Exactly what race is being
>defamed? Is name-calling your only play? It's a public forum.
>Everyone else is as entitled to their opinion as you.

Yes, I think everyone is entitled to my opinion.

Proton Soup

[Brian Link]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:56:19 GMT, Proton Soup <> wrote:

>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 01:33:55 -0500, Brian Link
><blink@visi.com> wrote:

<snip>

>>Didn't anyone tell em that underneath Saddam was a gigantic,
>>nascent civil war? Doesn't anyone think of these things on
>>the right?
>
>So what? Our economy is based on oil. Saddam had already
>shown that he has no qualms about invading his neighbors and
>stealing their oil. Today Kuwait, tomorrow Iran, Saudi
>Arabia, Qatar, ... Eventually, he would have had enough power
>to be his own OPEC.

I can't believe anyone thinks this... Saddam was a paper tiger
by the time we chased him out of Baghdad. He hadn't launched a
fighter in what, ten years? He couldn't move a tank without
our knowing it - and knowing we had a cowboy as president he
wouldn't dare. His people were starving, his inner circle was
crumbling. The only danger he posed was to his own cronies and
his unfortunate citizens.

>He could have cut production low enough to destroy not only
>our economy, but send the whole world into a depression that
>would make the 1930s look like an age of prosperity. And of
>course, the scarcer the world resources, the higher the
>number of wars and conflicts everywhere.
>
>Proton Soup

The scenario you mention is possible and scary, but could not
have been carried out by an emasculated Saddam in 2002, imho.

It may yet be carried out by a Shiite Shariyah government
chummy with Iran and the soon-to-be-toppled Saud kingdom,
which is what our gov's meddling is increasingly likely
to provide.

Brian Link, Minnesota Countertenor
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Mother, people only invite
you to dinner for three reasons: to sell you vitamins, to
drug you and take unpleasant snapshots, or to convert you to
their hideous farming religion."

[Brian Link]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 03:34:45 -0400, John M. Williams
<jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:

>Brian Link <blink@visi.com> wrote:
>>
>>And I just gotta say, what a damn shame Cheney decided we
>>needed to move on Iraq. Sucking up all our troop strength
>>and pasting it there for the indefinite future. But now that
>>we're there we'll have a helluva time finishing anything
>>with our forces stretched thin.
>>
>>Didn't anyone tell em that underneath Saddam was a gigantic,
>>nascent civil war? Doesn't anyone think of these things on
>>the right?
>
>Did you support continued Communist Rule in Eastern Europe,
>knowing that the removal of the Iron Fist would give rise to
>the same Balkan conflicts that have always existed?
>
>Did you support minority white rule in Africa, knowing that
>the withdrawal of white rule would lead to tribal warfare
>that has been brewing for centuries?

It's one thing to despise a country, it's another to willfully
fuck it up by sending our entire armed forces to occupy it.

1. Communism was our stated enemy, with vast power and the
nuclear capability to erase our country, and we were
right to oppose it and roll the dice on its successor.
Eastern Europe had the support of the Big Bear, and by
relation, China.

Saddam, on the other hand, was a toothless psychopath under
the magnifying glass of the entire planet. Even countries that
hate us hated him. While he was in the vise of sanctions and
the no-fly zones, his country was squalid but stable - just
like North Korea. It is now squalid and unstable.

2. Reading the writings of the apartheid apologists in the
70s, you would have thought South Africa would be a
smoldering crater by now. It's not. It's even functional.
Change came about organically, and was supported by the
majority. They even had public Forgiveness trials, which I
can't see ever happening in Iraq.

Finally, I don't recall our dropping cluster bombs on Warsaw
or Praetoria in order to topple their unjust regimes. And I
must have missed the pictures of Jarudjelski's statues getting
knocked down with Marine heavy tractors.

Iraq was not a danger that warranted turning it into a Walmart
for Islamic radicals by our monkeying with it.

Brian Link, Minnesota Countertenor
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Mother, people only invite
you to dinner for three reasons: to sell you vitamins, to
drug you and take unpleasant snapshots, or to convert you to
their hideous farming religion."

[John Hudso]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:20:57 GMT, Proton Soup <> wrote:

>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 01:33:26 -0400, "Rev. Poindexter"
><poindexter@NOSPAMsubgenius.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <40894ED9.25545A67@robschuh.com>, Robert Schuh
>><rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote:
>>> > Democracy is based on the western concept that the
>>> > individual has a right to life, liberty and the pursuit
>>> > of happiness. Freedom of speech is part of the western
>>> > package.
>>> >
>>> > Islam on the other hand, says that your value as a
>>> > Muslim is measured by your unquestioning submission to
>>> > the will of God.
>>> >
>>> > I do not believe that the Democracy and Islam can
>>> > succesfully coexist.
>>> >
>>> > Chris
>>> > --
>>> > The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long, but the
>>> > words of the wise are quiet and few.
>>> > --
>>> Why is it that you clowns can't see that this thread is
>>> about honoring a hero and not a place for you to spew your
>>> bigoted racist crap?
>>
>>You somewhat eleoquently posted a few days ago: "I am
>>entitled to my opinion as anyone." Exactly where is the
>>bigotry in Chris' statement? Exactly what race is being
>>defamed? Is name-calling your only play? It's a public
>>forum. Everyone else is as entitled to their opinion as you.
>
>Yes, I think everyone is entitled to my opinion.

True words spoken under the thin veil of humour; a more
complicated form of irony, but irony nonetheless!! ;o)

HAGW!!

[John Hanso]

On 23 Apr 2004 21:40:19 -0700, harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok)
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>Robert Schuh <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
>news:<408924CD.6FBB2B4A@robschuh.com>...
>> Pat Tilman died in Afghanistan. For those who don't know
>> who Pat was, he was a former NFL safety for the AZ
>> Cardinals who gave up an almost 4 million dollar contract
>> after 9/11 to go fight for our freedoms in the US. This is
>> someone who really stepped up to the plate and paid the
>> ultimate price. They have not released any details yet, but
>> he was originally deployed to Iraq as an Army Ranger, but
>> was in Afghanistan when he died.
>
>
>While not to take anything away from Tillman's sacrifice, it
>is sad that the football player gets the front page news,
>while the "regular" dead may get a passing mention as
>"another soldier killed" and his/her pic in the local paper.
>Just because a jock who turned down a few million $$ gets
>killed in battle doesn't make his ultimate sacrifice any more
>dutiful than the 699 others killed, or the sacrifices made by
>hundreds of other unseen casualties who are maimed with
>burns, amputations and disfiguring gunshot and shrapnel
>wounds. The "injured soldiers" reported daily in the media do
>not have bumps on the head. Honorable men fighting and dying
>on a battlefield is nothing new.
>
There are a great number of soldiers over there now that only
joined the service to learn a trade or help pay for college. I
don't believe that there were huge lines of people lining up
after 9-11 to join the service like there was on 12-7-41. What
Tillman gave up for the cause was far greater than most that
are over there. That's the difference.

[Azhosers]

harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok) wrote in message
news:<13f90950.0404232040.2ffb82b7@posting.google.com>...
> Robert Schuh <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
> news:<408924CD.6FBB2B4A@robschuh.com>...
> > Pat Tilman died in Afghanistan. For those who don't know
> > who Pat was, he was a former NFL safety for the AZ
> > Cardinals who gave up an almost 4 million dollar contract
> > after 9/11 to go fight for our freedoms in the US. This is
> > someone who really stepped up to the plate and paid the
> > ultimate price. They have not released any details yet,
> > but he was originally deployed to Iraq as an Army Ranger,
> > but was in Afghanistan when he died.
>
>
> While not to take anything away from Tillman's sacrifice, it
> is sad that the football player gets the front page news,
> while the "regular" dead may get a passing mention as
> "another soldier killed" and his/her pic in the local paper.
> Just because a jock who turned down a few million $$ gets
> killed in battle doesn't make his ultimate sacrifice any
> more dutiful than the 699 others killed, or the sacrifices
> made by hundreds of other unseen casualties who are maimed
> with burns, amputations and disfiguring gunshot and shrapnel
> wounds. The "injured soldiers" reported daily in the media
> do not have bumps on the head. Honorable men fighting and
> dying on a battlefield is nothing new.
>
> Dok

You said it Brother! I mean for Pat Tillman to turn down a
multi million dollar NFL contract to go kill Assholes -IS a
real true American Idealistic thing, but your so right about
how big a splash it is making! They cut into regular
programming to announce his death, the other American Heros of
the day got NOTHING! Senetor McCain is probably going to make
an Official Pat Tillman Day in Az, and I hear tell he is
stumping for a NEw $50 cent peice to be called the Tillman
Half with Tillman on the front! Last soldier to ganer any
attention was that indian chick--so they changed the name of
the Squaw Peak freeway here to Piestewa Peak Parkway--Imagine
a freeway and a Mountain named , JUST because it was a Female
Native American!

But on the otherhand-Tillman was a fool! Passing up Multi
Million dollar NFL deals to go fight a war that will accomlish
nothing and getting himself killed FOR nothing menas he was
STUPID! Guess thats why he played football huh?

DDSD

[John Hudso]

On 24 Apr 2004 10:18:31 -0700, DDSD@myself.com
(Azhosers) wrote:

>harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok) wrote in message
>news:<13f90950.0404232040.2ffb82b7@posting.google.com>...
>> Robert Schuh <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
>> news:<408924CD.6FBB2B4A@robschuh.com>...
>> > Pat Tilman died in Afghanistan. For those who don't know
>> > who Pat was, he was a former NFL safety for the AZ
>> > Cardinals who gave up an almost 4 million dollar contract
>> > after 9/11 to go fight for our freedoms in the US. This
>> > is someone who really stepped up to the plate and paid
>> > the ultimate price. They have not released any details
>> > yet, but he was originally deployed to Iraq as an Army
>> > Ranger, but was in Afghanistan when he died.
>>
>>
>> While not to take anything away from Tillman's sacrifice,
>> it is sad that the football player gets the front page
>> news, while the "regular" dead may get a passing mention as
>> "another soldier killed" and his/her pic in the local
>> paper. Just because a jock who turned down a few million $$
>> gets killed in battle doesn't make his ultimate sacrifice
>> any more dutiful than the 699 others killed, or the
>> sacrifices made by hundreds of other unseen casualties who
>> are maimed with burns, amputations and disfiguring gunshot
>> and shrapnel wounds. The "injured soldiers" reported daily
>> in the media do not have bumps on the head. Honorable men
>> fighting and dying on a battlefield is nothing new.
>>
>> Dok
>
>You said it Brother! I mean for Pat Tillman to turn down a
>multi million dollar NFL contract to go kill Assholes -IS a
>real true American Idealistic thing, but your so right about
>how big a splash it is making! They cut into regular
>programming to announce his death, the other American Heros
>of the day got NOTHING! Senetor McCain is probably going to
>make an Official Pat Tillman Day in Az, and I hear tell he is
>stumping for a NEw $50 cent peice to be called the Tillman
>Half with Tillman on the front! Last soldier to ganer any
>attention was that indian chick--so they changed the name of
>the Squaw Peak freeway here to Piestewa Peak Parkway--Imagine
>a freeway and a Mountain named , JUST because it was a Female
>Native American!
>
>But on the otherhand-Tillman was a fool! Passing up Multi
>Million dollar NFL deals to go fight a war that will
>accomlish nothing and getting himself killed FOR nothing
>menas he was STUPID! Guess thats why he played football huh?

I wonder if you would have the guts to say that to his father
or to his brothers?

Even in this testosterone heaving arena of sometimes
unbelievable bad taste, you have plumbed the depths of
unacceptable behaviour.

Go back under the rock from whence you slithered you
rotten bastard!

Ugh!!

[Jim Ranier]

"Azhosers" <DDSD@myself.com> wrote in message

> But on the otherhand-Tillman was a fool! Passing up Multi
> Million dollar NFL deals to go fight a war that will
> accomlish nothing and getting himself killed FOR nothing
> menas he was STUPID! Guess thats why he played football huh?
>

If you think about it, we'll all die someday. Regardless of
your feelings about the war, Pat Tillman will be remembered
for generations as a man of honor and integrity. You, on the
other hand, will be vaguely recalled for a few months as a
self-involved, dim-witted jackass, Then you will be forgotten.

[Proton Sou]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 02:26:16 -0500, Brian Link
<blink@visi.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:56:19 GMT, Proton Soup <> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 01:33:55 -0500, Brian Link
>><blink@visi.com> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>>Didn't anyone tell em that underneath Saddam was a
>>>gigantic, nascent civil war? Doesn't anyone think of these
>>>things on the right?
>>
>>So what? Our economy is based on oil. Saddam had already
>>shown that he has no qualms about invading his neighbors and
>>stealing their oil. Today Kuwait, tomorrow Iran, Saudi
>>Arabia, Qatar, ... Eventually, he would have had enough
>>power to be his own OPEC.
>
>I can't believe anyone thinks this... Saddam was a paper
>tiger by the time we chased him out of Baghdad. He hadn't
>launched a fighter in what, ten years? He couldn't move a
>tank without our knowing it - and

He didn't take Kuwait with fighters. And although he may have
been a paper tiger by the time we reached Baghdad, he had real
power before the war had begun.

>knowing we had a cowboy as president he wouldn't dare. His
>people were

"Cowboy"? That is the true level of discourse on public radio,
isn't it, not the anomolous case you mentioned recently.

>starving, his inner circle was crumbling. The only danger he
>posed was to his own cronies and his unfortunate citizens.

Really? Who were these people that were about to topple his
regime? Do they have a name?

>>He could have cut production low enough to destroy not only
>>our economy, but send the whole world into a depression that
>>would make the 1930s look like an age of prosperity. And of
>>course, the scarcer the world resources, the higher the
>>number of wars and conflicts everywhere.
>>
>>Proton Soup
>
>The scenario you mention is possible and scary, but could not
>have been carried out by an emasculated Saddam in 2002, imho.

I do not believe he ever stopped trying. He still had money.
The oil still flowed. Just how many decades were we expected
to go on practicing containment?

>It may yet be carried out by a Shiite Shariyah government
>chummy with Iran and the soon-to-be-toppled Saud kingdom,
>which is what our gov's meddling is increasingly likely
>to provide.

Iran's an interesting place, with some very intelligent
people. Hopefully, their society will evolve along a freer
path. I could not care less what happens to the House of Saud.

Proton Soup

[Adam Fahy]

Brian Link wrote:

> Saddam, on the other hand, was a toothless psychopath under
> the magnifying glass of the entire planet.

Yet Saddam was "under a magnifying glass" only because of the
threat of war. The situation was quite different before
Operation Iraqi Freedom.

> Even countries that hate us hated him. While he was in the
> vise of sanctions and the no-fly zones, his country was
> squalid but stable - just like North Korea. It is now
> squalid and unstable.

The sanctions regime--which was popularly seen by US opponents
as targeting the lives of Iraqi babies and not Saddam--was
collapsing. The no-fly zones were decried as illegal, of
questionable utility, and dangerous for the pilots who flew
there. The Oil for Food program was scandalously corrupt. The
stationing of troops in Saudi Arabia (and /female/ troops, as
though the Zionist Crusaders occupying Mecca wasn't enough)
was seen as a grave insult towards Islam.

Neither Iraq nor North Korea are "stable." The Iraqi regime
killed--or worse--thousands of people a year; the economy
was completely collapsed; whole groups of people were
targeted for destruction. Almost the exact same thing can be
said for the police state of North Korea, adding massive
starvation of course.

You're talking about "stability" in literally the most
brutally oppressive countries in the world; things are
"stable" when you don't see breaking news reports on TV, but
the implication that the status quo was/is somehow not a
disaster slowly deteriorating into horrific tragedy is foolish
and naive.

-Adam

[Azhosers]

Just another FORGED and Fake post with my name on it--Good
Ol Rob Schuh at work! Pay ttention to the headers
people--I post right here-nowhere else-Robert is a scumbag
to do such a thing!

DDSD

John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
news:<an8l80tqljiseo3584h72deg4p5td95sp1@4ax.com>...
> On 24 Apr 2004 10:18:31 -0700, DDSD@myself.com
> (Azhosers) wrote:
>
> >harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok) wrote in message
> >news:<13f90950.0404232040.2ffb82b7@posting.google.com>...
> >> Robert Schuh <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
> >> news:<408924CD.6FBB2B4A@robschuh.com>...
> >> > Pat Tilman died in Afghanistan. For those who don't
> >> > know who Pat was, he was a former NFL safety for the AZ
> >> > Cardinals who gave up an almost 4 million dollar
> >> > contract after 9/11 to go fight for our freedoms in the
> >> > US. This is someone who really stepped up to the plate
> >> > and paid the ultimate price. They have not released any
> >> > details yet, but he was originally deployed to Iraq as
> >> > an Army Ranger, but was in Afghanistan when he died.
> >>
> >>
> >> While not to take anything away from Tillman's sacrifice,
> >> it is sad that the football player gets the front page
> >> news, while the "regular" dead may get a passing mention
> >> as "another soldier killed" and his/her pic in the local
> >> paper. Just because a jock who turned down a few million
> >> $$ gets killed in battle doesn't make his ultimate
> >> sacrifice any more dutiful than the 699 others killed, or
> >> the sacrifices made by hundreds of other unseen
> >> casualties who are maimed with burns, amputations and
> >> disfiguring gunshot and shrapnel wounds. The "injured
> >> soldiers" reported daily in the media do not have bumps
> >> on the head. Honorable men fighting and dying on a
> >> battlefield is nothing new.
> >>
> >> Dok
> >
> >You said it Brother! I mean for Pat Tillman to turn down a
> >multi million dollar NFL contract to go kill Assholes -IS a
> >real true American Idealistic thing, but your so right
> >about how big a splash it is making! They cut into regular
> >programming to announce his death, the other American Heros
> >of the day got NOTHING! Senetor McCain is probably going to
> >make an Official Pat Tillman Day in Az, and I hear tell he
> >is stumping for a NEw $50 cent peice to be called the
> >Tillman Half with Tillman on the front! Last soldier to
> >ganer any attention was that indian chick--so they changed
> >the name of the Squaw Peak freeway here to Piestewa Peak
> >Parkway--Imagine a freeway and a Mountain named , JUST
> >because it was a Female Native American!
> >
> >But on the otherhand-Tillman was a fool! Passing up
> >Multi Million dollar NFL deals to go fight a war that
> >will accomlish nothing and getting himself killed FOR
> >nothing menas he was STUPID! Guess thats why he played
> >football huh?
>
> I wonder if you would have the guts to say that to his
> father or to his brothers?
>
> Even in this testosterone heaving arena of sometimes
> unbelievable bad taste, you have plumbed the depths of
> unacceptable behaviour.
>
> Go back under the rock from whence you slithered you rotten
> bastard!
>
> Ugh!!

[John Hudso]

On 24 Apr 2004 21:59:40 -0700, DDSD@myself.com
(Azhosers) wrote:
>
>John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
>news:<an8l80tqljiseo3584h72deg4p5td95sp1@4ax.com>...
>> On 24 Apr 2004 10:18:31 -0700, DDSD@myself.com
>> (Azhosers) wrote:
>>
>> >harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok) wrote in message
>> >news:<13f90950.0404232040.2ffb82b7@posting.google.com>...
>> >> Robert Schuh <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:<408924CD.6FBB2B4A@robschuh.com>...
>> >> > Pat Tilman died in Afghanistan. For those who don't
>> >> > know who Pat was, he was a former NFL safety for the
>> >> > AZ Cardinals who gave up an almost 4 million dollar
>> >> > contract after 9/11 to go fight for our freedoms in
>> >> > the US. This is someone who really stepped up to the
>> >> > plate and paid the ultimate price. They have not
>> >> > released any details yet, but he was originally
>> >> > deployed to Iraq as an Army Ranger, but was in
>> >> > Afghanistan when he died.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> While not to take anything away from Tillman's
>> >> sacrifice, it is sad that the football player gets the
>> >> front page news, while the "regular" dead may get a
>> >> passing mention as "another soldier killed" and his/her
>> >> pic in the local paper. Just because a jock who turned
>> >> down a few million $$ gets killed in battle doesn't make
>> >> his ultimate sacrifice any more dutiful than the 699
>> >> others killed, or the sacrifices made by hundreds of
>> >> other unseen casualties who are maimed with burns,
>> >> amputations and disfiguring gunshot and shrapnel wounds.
>> >> The "injured soldiers" reported daily in the media do
>> >> not have bumps on the head. Honorable men fighting and
>> >> dying on a battlefield is nothing new.
>> >>
>> >> Dok
>> >
>> >You said it Brother! I mean for Pat Tillman to turn down a
>> >multi million dollar NFL contract to go kill Assholes -IS
>> >a real true American Idealistic thing, but your so right
>> >about how big a splash it is making! They cut into regular
>> >programming to announce his death, the other American
>> >Heros of the day got NOTHING! Senetor McCain is probably
>> >going to make an Official Pat Tillman Day in Az, and I
>> >hear tell he is stumping for a NEw $50 cent peice to be
>> >called the Tillman Half with Tillman on the front! Last
>> >soldier to ganer any attention was that indian chick--so
>> >they changed the name of the Squaw Peak freeway here to
>> >Piestewa Peak Parkway--Imagine a freeway and a Mountain
>> >named , JUST because it was a Female Native American!
>> >
>> >But on the otherhand-Tillman was a fool! Passing up
>> >Multi Million dollar NFL deals to go fight a war that
>> >will accomlish nothing and getting himself killed FOR
>> >nothing menas he was STUPID! Guess thats why he played
>> >football huh?
>>
>> I wonder if you would have the guts to say that to his
>> father or to his brothers?
>>
>> Even in this testosterone heaving arena of sometimes
>> unbelievable bad taste, you have plumbed the depths of
>> unacceptable behaviour.
>>
>> Go back under the rock from whence you slithered you rotten
>> bastard!
>>
>> Ugh!!

>Just another FORGED and Fake post with my name on it--Good
>Ol Rob Schuh at work! Pay ttention to the headers
>people--I post right here-nowhere else-Robert is a scumbag
>to do such a thing!
>
>DDSD
>

If that is true please accept my apologies, I have no idea
about "headers" or Usenet 'skulduggery'!!

And to the sick prick that did compose that dreadful diatribe,
I hope your earholes turn to arseholes and shit all over you!!

[Hank]

saboteur wrote:
>
> Robert Schuh <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
> news:<408924CD.6FBB2B4A@robschuh.com>...
> > Pat Tilman died in Afghanistan. For those who don't know
> > who Pat was, he was a former NFL safety for the AZ
> > Cardinals who gave up an almost 4 million dollar contract
> > after 9/11 to go fight for our freedoms in the US. This is
> > someone who really stepped up to the plate and paid the
> > ultimate price. They have not released any details yet,
> > but he was originally deployed to Iraq as an Army Ranger,
> > but was in Afghanistan when he died.
>
> On 911 , daddy Bush was meeting with BIN LADEN'S brother one
> block away from the pentagon why? On 911 Rumsfeld was
> meeting with the Pakistani general that wired 100000$ to
> Mohamed Atta, Why?. On 911, 5 israelis JEWS were arested by
> the FBI because they were celebrating as the tower fells.
> The five intelligence and DEMOLITION EXPERT were later
> deported to israel,why? www.whatreallyhappened.com

Why did Condolleeza Rice claim that no one could have
imagined that commercial jets could be used as bombs or
missiles?

-

http://www.911forthetruth.com/united_states_district_court.-
htm http://www.septembereleventh.org/
http://globalresearch.ca/ http://www.wsws.org/

Dick Cheney: "Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam
Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction." August 26, 2002.

Ari Fleischer: "We know for a fact that there are weapons
there." January 9, 2003.

Colin Powell: "We know that Saddam Hussein is determined to
keep his weapons of mass destruction, is determined to make
more." February 5, 2003.

Donald Rumsfeld: "We know where they are," about these
weapons. "They are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad."
March 30, 2003.

George W. Bush: "We have sources that tell us that Saddam
Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use
chemical weapons." February 8, 2003.

George W. Bush: "Intelligence gathered by this and other
governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to
possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever
devised." March 17, 2003.

"I think this is the worst government the US has ever had in
its more than 200 years of history. It has engaged in
extraordinarily irresponsible policies not only in foreign
policy and economics but also in social and environmental
policy.....This is not normal government policy. Now is the
time for people to engage in civil disobedience. I think it's
time to protest - as much as possible....What we have here is
a form of looting."
- George A. Akerlof, 2001 Nobel prize laureate economist

"One of the things we don't want to do is destroy the
infrastructure in Iraq because in a few days we're going to
own that country," - Tom Brokaw

Cost of probing Bill Clinton's sex life: $65 million. Cost
of probing the Columbia shuttle disaster: $50 million. Funds
assigned to independent Sept. 11 panel: $3 million.

http://www.commondreams.org/ http://www.truthout.org/
http://counterpunch.org/ http://responsiblewealth.org/

"After all, it is the leaders of the country who determine
the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the
people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the
bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is
tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the
peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country
to danger. It works the same in any country." -- Hermann
Goering, President of the Reichstag, Nazi Party, and
Luftwaffe Commander in Chief

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President, right
or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is
morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore
Roosevelt (1918)

"You know, when bu$h said that he's against nation building,
I didn't realize that he meant only the United States"
-- Al Franken

Don't let bu$h do to the United States what his very
close friend and top campaign contributor, Ken Lay, did
to Enron...

"Personally, I don't think all the Iraqis on earth are
worth even a single American life." - A usenet rabid right
wing extremist terrorist.

[Dok]

John Hanson <jhanson@northernlinks.com> wrote in message
news:<ejlk8097vc6mv43u2jhbvtr1g0rsdjmkpa@4ax.com>...
> On 23 Apr 2004 21:40:19 -0700, harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok)
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >Robert Schuh <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
> >news:<408924CD.6FBB2B4A@robschuh.com>...
> >> Pat Tilman died in Afghanistan. For those who don't know
> >> who Pat was, he was a former NFL safety for the AZ
> >> Cardinals who gave up an almost 4 million dollar contract
> >> after 9/11 to go fight for our freedoms in the US. This
> >> is someone who really stepped up to the plate and paid
> >> the ultimate price. They have not released any details
> >> yet, but he was originally deployed to Iraq as an Army
> >> Ranger, but was in Afghanistan when he died.
> >
> >
> >While not to take anything away from Tillman's sacrifice,
> >it is sad that the football player gets the front page
> >news, while the "regular" dead may get a passing mention as
> >"another soldier killed" and his/her pic in the local
> >paper. Just because a jock who turned down a few million $$
> >gets killed in battle doesn't make his ultimate sacrifice
> >any more dutiful than the 699 others killed, or the
> >sacrifices made by hundreds of other unseen casualties who
> >are maimed with burns, amputations and disfiguring gunshot
> >and shrapnel wounds. The "injured soldiers" reported daily
> >in the media do not have bumps on the head. Honorable men
> >fighting and dying on a battlefield is nothing new.
> >
> There are a great number of soldiers over there now that
> only joined the service to learn a trade or help pay for
> college. I don't believe that there were huge lines of
> people lining up after 9-11 to join the service like there
> was on 12-7-41. .

You are right, too. However, when you sign that paper, you
know ahead of time that your education is secondary to the
mission of the military, which is to fight wars. Many
soldiers have this realization sooner or later. However,
there are still plenty who "re-up" after the initial
commitment runs out. If I remember correctly, there was a
surge in enlistments right after 9/11, though probably not on
the scale as Pearl Harbor.

>What Tillman gave up for the cause was far greater than
>most that are
over there. That's the difference.<

So, the loss of a football player is somehow more grievous
than the loss of the local cop or farmboy? I do see your
point, though. But you'd have to convince generations of
families who lost their dad/son/friend in WWII, Korea,
Vietnam, Somalia, Kuwait, Iraq, et. al., that their loss is
somehow diminished because, well, Joe Average became or would
have been a school teacher, computer guy, mechanic, cop or
factory worker, and that his occupation just wasn't as
glamourous as that of a professional football player. Soldiers
die, no matter what their socioeconomic status. They send
doctors into war zones all the time, and they are there right
now. I know some of them personally. Would you argue that the
loss of a doctor is less, on par with, or more grievous than
the loss of a football player? I doubt that any of my friends
would make front page news.

I have a friend who is a Special Forces kinda guy. He is a
Harvard grad but would rather jump out of planes and then cut
your throat. Why he does this, I don't know. I doubt his
death would make front page news, or even be admitted to by
the gov't.

Dok

[Dok]

"Jim Ranieri" <davinci@renaissance.net> wrote in message
news:<108lsh2f9kolh7c@corp.supernews.com>...
> "Azhosers" <DDSD@myself.com> wrote in message
>
> > But on the otherhand-Tillman was a fool! Passing up
> > Multi Million dollar NFL deals to go fight a war that
> > will accomlish nothing and getting himself killed FOR
> > nothing menas he was STUPID! Guess thats why he played
> > football huh?
> >
>
> If you think about it, we'll all die someday. Regardless of
> your feelings about the war, Pat Tillman will be remembered
> for generations as a man of honor and integrity.

Sadly, this is probably not the case at all. Within 20 years,
the kids of our next generation will not know anything about
the recent heroes other than the street or building named
after them. How many people under age 50 know who Audie
Murphy was?

If you go into any Army hospital or Army medical facility, one
corridor will have a wall with rows of pictures of soldiers in
the medical field (medics, chopper evac pilots, etc.) who were
awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor dating back to WWI
(maybe the civil war?). Most are dead, and most medals were
awarded posthumously. Some are still alive today, especially
those of the Vietnam era. I can tell you, the overwhelming
majority of those names were unfamiliar to
me. There are buildings and streets on any military base
named after dead soldiers. Most people today, even
soldiers themselves, could probably not tell who those
men were, other than they probably did something heroic
and got killed doing it.

My heart goes out to the Tillman family and to the families of
all the other professional and part-time soldiers who have
been killed or injured.

Dok

[Glenn Dowd]

"Dok" <harleydok@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13f90950.0404251313.25c21f0e@posting.google.com...
>
> Sadly, this is probably not the case at all. Within 20
> years, the kids of our next generation will not know
> anything about the recent heroes other than the street or
> building named after them. How many people under age 50 know
> who Audie Murphy was?

Well, me, but I admit being just a wee bit more interested in
things military than most.
>
> If you go into any Army hospital or Army medical facility,
> one corridor will have a wall with rows of pictures of
> soldiers in the medical field (medics, chopper evac pilots,
> etc.) who were awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor

Nitpick: It's official name is the Medal of Honor.
'Congressional' is common and usually accepted but not
accurate.

https://www.perscom.army.mil/tagd/tioh/Awards/MOH1.htm

> My heart goes out to the Tillman family and to the families
> of all the other professional and part-time soldiers who
> have been killed or injured.
>
I wholeheartedly echo these sentiments.

Glenn D.

[Jim Ranier]

"Dok" <harleydok@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13f90950.0404251313.25c21f0e@posting.google.com...
> "Jim Ranieri" <davinci@renaissance.net> wrote in message
news:<108lsh2f9kolh7c@corp.supernews.com>...
> > "Azhosers" <DDSD@myself.com> wrote in message
> >
> > > But on the otherhand-Tillman was a fool! Passing up
> > > Multi Million dollar NFL deals to go fight a war that
> > > will accomlish nothing and getting himself killed FOR
> > > nothing menas he was STUPID! Guess thats why he played
> > > football huh?
> > >
> >
> > If you think about it, we'll all die someday. Regardless
> > of your
feelings
> > about the war, Pat Tillman will be remembered for
> > generations as a man
of
> > honor and integrity.
>
>
> Sadly, this is probably not the case at all. Within 20
> years, the kids of our next generation will not know
> anything about the recent heroes other than the street or
> building named after them. How many people under age 50 know
> who Audie Murphy was?
>

No, I'm sure he won't be a household name in 20 years, but
he'll be part of the Tillman family legacy for many
generations. That's all that really matters.

[John M . W]

harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok) wrote:
>"Jim Ranieri" <davinci@renaissance.net> wrote:
>> "Azhosers" <DDSD@myself.com> wrote in message
>>
>> > But on the otherhand-Tillman was a fool! Passing up
>> > Multi Million dollar NFL deals to go fight a war that
>> > will accomlish nothing and getting himself killed FOR
>> > nothing menas he was STUPID! Guess thats why he played
>> > football huh?
>>
>> If you think about it, we'll all die someday. Regardless of
>> your feelings about the war, Pat Tillman will be remembered
>> for generations as a man of honor and integrity.
>
>Sadly, this is probably not the case at all. Within 20 years,
>the kids of our next generation will not know anything about
>the recent heroes other than the street or building named
>after them. How many people under age 50 know who Audie
>Murphy was?

John Huston's "gentle little killer"? And I ain't 50 yet.

[Gman99]

> Sadly, this is probably not the case at all. Within 20
> years, the kids of our next generation will not know
> anything about the recent heroes other than the street or
> building named after them. How many people under age 50 know
> who Audie Murphy was?
>
I'm neither American nor over 50 and I know who Audie Murphy
is. I pray that you are not trying to compare this Tillman
character with Audie Murphy...please. Going off to a foriegn
land and getting oneself killed does NOT make one a hero.

[Jim Ranier]

"gman99" <nospam@bogusemail.com> wrote in message
news:20040425194428.976$F9@newsreader.com...
> >
> > Sadly, this is probably not the case at all. Within 20
> > years, the kids of our next generation will not know
> > anything about the recent heroes other than the street or
> > building named after them. How many people under age 50
> > know who Audie Murphy was?
> >
> I'm neither American nor over 50 and I know who Audie Murphy
> is. I pray that you are not trying to compare this Tillman
> character with Audie Murphy...please. Going off to a foriegn
> land and getting oneself killed does NOT make one a hero.

Try to follow along. It's about beliefs, opportunities
and choices.

[Mr.Melnick]

What is so sad? SO he goes over there and gets himself killed.
So what? Why the big fuss? Why is it that the ordinary schmuk
with 3 kids and a wife who joined the national guard, got
shipped to Iraq and Killed, does not recieve top level
coverage? Why no senetors on TV saying how great they were?
Fuck Tillman!

He was an idiot, and got himself killed for N O T H I N G!!!

Mel ]]]]]]]]] Jim Ranieri <davinci@renaissance.net> wrote in
message news:108irrd1ph1llbd@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Robert Schuh" <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
> news:408924CD.6FBB2B4A@robschuh.com...
> > Pat Tilman died in Afghanistan. For those who don't know
> > who Pat was, he was a former NFL safety for the AZ
> > Cardinals who gave up an almost 4 million dollar contract
> > after 9/11 to go fight for our freedoms in the US. This is
> > someone who really stepped up to the plate and paid the
> > ultimate price. They have not released any details yet,
> > but he was originally deployed to Iraq as an Army Ranger,
> > but was in Afghanistan when he died.
> >
>
>
> Very sad. Sounds like he was an extraordinary person -
> brains, toughness
and
> integrity.
>
>
>

[Karl Hungu]

"Mr.Melnick" <Mel@Nick.Comet> wrote in message
news:i_Zic.37551$dZ1.37322@fed1read04...

> Fuck Tillman!
>
> He was an idiot, and got himself killed for N O T H I N G!!!

Why do you feel our actions in Afghanistan are "for nothing"?

[Marbury]

"Mr.Melnick" <Mel@Nick.Comet> wrote in message
news:i_Zic.37551$dZ1.37322@fed1read04...
> What is so sad? SO he goes over there and gets himself
> killed. So what?
Why
> the big fuss? Why is it that the ordinary schmuk with 3 kids
> and a wife
who
> joined the national guard, got shipped to Iraq and Killed,
> does not
recieve
> top level coverage? Why no senetors on TV saying how great
> they were? Fuck Tillman!
>
> He was an idiot, and got himself killed for N O T H I N G!!!
>
>
> Mel ]]]]]]]]]

troll-o-meter

.1

whit

> Jim Ranieri <davinci@renaissance.net> wrote in message
> news:108irrd1ph1llbd@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > "Robert Schuh" <rob22222@robschuh.com> wrote in message
> > news:408924CD.6FBB2B4A@robschuh.com...
> > > Pat Tilman died in Afghanistan. For those who don't know
> > > who Pat was,
he
> > > was a former NFL safety for the AZ Cardinals who gave up
> > > an almost 4 million dollar contract after 9/11 to go
> > > fight for our freedoms in the US. This is someone who
> > > really stepped up to the plate and paid the ultimate
> > > price. They have not released any details yet, but he
> > > was originally deployed to Iraq as an Army Ranger, but
> > > was in Afghanistan when he died.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Very sad. Sounds like he was an extraordinary person -
> > brains, toughness
> and
> > integrity.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

[Hugh Beyer]

harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok) wrote in
news:13f90950.0404251401.7194bc9a@posting.google.com:

>>What Tillman gave up for the cause was far greater than most
>>that are
> over there. That's the difference.<
>
> So, the loss of a football player is somehow more grievous
> than the loss of the local cop or farmboy? I do see your
> point, though. But you'd have to convince generations of
> families who lost their dad/son/friend in WWII, Korea,
> Vietnam, Somalia, Kuwait, Iraq, et. al., that their loss is
> somehow diminished because, well, Joe Average became or
> would have been a school teacher, computer guy, mechanic,
> cop or factory worker, and that his occupation just wasn't
> as glamourous as that of a professional football player.
> Soldiers die, no matter what their socioeconomic status.
> They send doctors into war zones all the time, and they are
> there right now. I know some of them personally. Would you
> argue that the loss of a doctor is less, on par with, or
> more grievous than the loss of a football player? I doubt
> that any of my friends would make front page news.
>

Are you really this clueless? The guy walked away from a
million-dollar-a- year job, the adulation of the masses, and
all the babes he wanted. It's not about the worth of the
individual. (Yes, your ordinary Joe's life is worth as much as
that of a pro football player.) It's just a recognition that
the magnitude of what the guy walked away from is somewhat
different from what most people leave when they sign up.

Hugh

--
Help! My myofibrillar material is disorganized!

[Mark Polis]

Do you care what this miscreant thinks? You want to debate
with him? Get real.
--
--
o-----«� Mark Polis � b.d.bop@suscom.net �»-----o

"You play because you must." - drummer Tony Williams
--
--

"Karl Hungus" <karlhungus@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Ri_ic.36039$_L6.2076676@attbi_s53...
>
> "Mr.Melnick" <Mel@Nick.Comet> wrote in message
> news:i_Zic.37551$dZ1.37322@fed1read04...
>
> > Fuck Tillman!
> >
> > He was an idiot, and got himself killed for N O T H I
> > N G!!!
>
>
> Why do you feel our actions in Afghanistan are "for
> nothing"?

[Jc Der Koe]

"Hugh Beyer" <beyerxyzzy@acm.org> wrote in message
news:Xns94D6D326754BChughrbeyeracmorg@63.223.5.254...
> harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok) wrote in
> news:13f90950.0404251401.7194bc9a@posting.google.com:
>
> >>What Tillman gave up for the cause was far greater than
> >>most that are
> > over there. That's the difference.<
> >
> > So, the loss of a football player is somehow more grievous
> > than the loss of the local cop or farmboy? I do see your
> > point, though. But you'd have to convince generations of
> > families who lost their dad/son/friend in WWII, Korea,
> > Vietnam, Somalia, Kuwait, Iraq, et. al., that their loss
> > is somehow diminished because, well, Joe Average became or
> > would have been a school teacher, computer guy, mechanic,
> > cop or factory worker, and that his occupation just wasn't
> > as glamourous as that of a professional football player.
> > Soldiers die, no matter what their socioeconomic status.
> > They send doctors into war zones all the time, and they
> > are there right now. I know some of them personally. Would
> > you argue that the loss of a doctor is less, on par with,
> > or more grievous than the loss of a football player? I
> > doubt that any of my friends would make front page news.
> >
>
> Are you really this clueless? The guy walked away from a
> million-dollar-a- year job, the adulation of the masses, and
> all the babes he wanted. It's
not
> about the worth of the individual. (Yes, your ordinary Joe's
> life is worth
as
> much as that of a pro football player.) It's just a
> recognition that the magnitude of what the guy walked away
> from is somewhat different from what most people leave when
> they sign up.
>

Maybe Tillman's life sucked to him when he signed up. Maybe
your "ordinary Joe" signed up out of pure patriotism, despite
have a pretty good life. How do you know what they really gave
up? Can you look into the hearts and minds of men? Your
materialistic world view may not be able to pinpoint the true
motivators here.

[John Hanso]

On 25 Apr 2004 14:13:26 -0700, harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok)
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>"Jim Ranieri" <davinci@renaissance.net> wrote in message
>news:<108lsh2f9kolh7c@corp.supernews.com>...
>> "Azhosers" <DDSD@myself.com> wrote in message
>>
>> > But on the otherhand-Tillman was a fool! Passing up
>> > Multi Million dollar NFL deals to go fight a war that
>> > will accomlish nothing and getting himself killed FOR
>> > nothing menas he was STUPID! Guess thats why he played
>> > football huh?
>> >
>>
>> If you think about it, we'll all die someday. Regardless of
>> your feelings about the war, Pat Tillman will be remembered
>> for generations as a man of honor and integrity.
>
>
>Sadly, this is probably not the case at all. Within 20 years,
>the kids of our next generation will not know anything about
>the recent heroes other than the street or building named
>after them. How many people under age 50 know who Audie
>Murphy was?

I'm under 40 and have known who Audie Murphy was since I was a
boy. I've also known of Ted Williams' service to his country
since then too and I'm not even a Redsox fan. Or how about
Grover Clevland Alexander. He was a great, great pitcher and
he went off to fight in France during WWI. Came back a drunk
from all of the pain and suffering (including his own) he
witnessed.

>
>If you go into any Army hospital or Army medical facility,
>one corridor will have a wall with rows of pictures of
>soldiers in the medical field (medics, chopper evac pilots,
>etc.) who were awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor
>dating back to WWI (maybe the civil war?). Most are dead, and
>most medals were awarded posthumously. Some are still alive
>today, especially those of the Vietnam era. I can tell you,
>the overwhelming majority of those names were unfamiliar to
>me. There are buildings and streets on any military base
> named after dead soldiers. Most people today, even
> soldiers themselves, could probably not tell who those
> men were, other than they probably did something heroic
> and got killed doing it.

Read about them here: http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/moh1.htm

>
>My heart goes out to the Tillman family and to the families
>of all the other professional and part-time soldiers who have
>been killed or injured.
>
>Dok

[Gooserider]

"Hugh Beyer" <beyerxyzzy@acm.org> wrote in message
news:Xns94D6D326754BChughrbeyeracmorg@63.223.5.254...
> harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok) wrote in
> news:13f90950.0404251401.7194bc9a@posting.google.com:
>
> >>What Tillman gave up for the cause was far greater than
> >>most that are
> > over there. That's the difference.<
> >
> > So, the loss of a football player is somehow more grievous
> > than the loss of the local cop or farmboy? I do see your
> > point, though. But you'd have to convince generations of
> > families who lost their dad/son/friend in WWII, Korea,
> > Vietnam, Somalia, Kuwait, Iraq, et. al., that their loss
> > is somehow diminished because, well, Joe Average became or
> > would have been a school teacher, computer guy, mechanic,
> > cop or factory worker, and that his occupation just wasn't
> > as glamourous as that of a professional football player.
> > Soldiers die, no matter what their socioeconomic status.
> > They send doctors into war zones all the time, and they
> > are there right now. I know some of them personally. Would
> > you argue that the loss of a doctor is less, on par with,
> > or more grievous than the loss of a football player? I
> > doubt that any of my friends would make front page news.
> >
>
> Are you really this clueless? The guy walked away from a
> million-dollar-a- year job, the adulation of the masses, and
> all the babes he wanted.

He also walked away from his new wife and baby daughter.

[Pat Styles]

"Dok" <harleydok@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13f90950.0404251313.25c21f0e@posting.google.com...
> "Jim Ranieri" <davinci@renaissance.net> wrote in message
news:<108lsh2f9kolh7c@corp.supernews.com>...
> > "Azhosers" <DDSD@myself.com> wrote in message
> >
> > > But on the otherhand-Tillman was a fool! Passing up
> > > Multi Million dollar NFL deals to go fight a war that
> > > will accomlish nothing and getting himself killed FOR
> > > nothing menas he was STUPID! Guess thats why he played
> > > football huh?
> > >
> >
> > If you think about it, we'll all die someday. Regardless
> > of your feelings about the war, Pat Tillman will be
> > remembered for generations as a man of honor and
> > integrity.
>
>
> Sadly, this is probably not the case at all. Within 20
> years, the kids of our next generation will not know
> anything about the recent heroes other than the street or
> building named after them. How many people under age 50 know
> who Audie Murphy was?

<raises hand>

I know who John Basilone was, too.
ps

[Larry Hodg]

"Mark Polis" <b.d.bop@suscom.net> wrote in message
news:108ouhq61s91c7d@corp.supernews.com...
> Do you care what this miscreant thinks? You want to debate
> with him? Get real.
> --
> --
> o-----«� Mark Polis � b.d.bop@suscom.net �»-----o
>
> "You play because you must." - drummer Tony Williams
> --
> --
>
> "Karl Hungus" <karlhungus@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:Ri_ic.36039$_L6.2076676@attbi_s53...
> >
> > "Mr.Melnick" <Mel@Nick.Comet> wrote in message
> > news:i_Zic.37551$dZ1.37322@fed1read04...
> >
> > > Fuck Tillman!
> > >
> > > He was an idiot, and got himself killed for N O T H I N
> > > G!!!
> >
> >
> > Why do you feel our actions in Afghanistan are "for
> > nothing"?

Karl my M. Savage brotha, don't waste your breath bud. They
can't carry on a decent conversation, so just poke them with a
stick. Or like the yappy little dog in the car in the parking
lot, walk by and knock on the window.

And on a serious note, just hope they're the ones killed in
the next terrorist attack instead of a real American.

-Larry

[John Hanso]

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:58:17 GMT, "JC Der Koenig"
<jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>"Hugh Beyer" <beyerxyzzy@acm.org> wrote in message
>news:Xns94D6D326754BChughrbeyeracmorg@63.223.5.254...
>> harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok) wrote in
>> news:13f90950.0404251401.7194bc9a@posting.google.com:
>>
>> >>What Tillman gave up for the cause was far greater than
>> >>most that are
>> > over there. That's the difference.<
>> >
>> > So, the loss of a football player is somehow more
>> > grievous than the loss of the local cop or farmboy? I do
>> > see your point, though. But you'd have to convince
>> > generations of families who lost their dad/son/friend in
>> > WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Kuwait, Iraq, et. al.,
>> > that their loss is somehow diminished because, well, Joe
>> > Average became or would have been a school teacher,
>> > computer guy, mechanic, cop or factory worker, and that
>> > his occupation just wasn't as glamourous as that of a
>> > professional football player. Soldiers die, no matter
>> > what their socioeconomic status. They send doctors into
>> > war zones all the time, and they are there right now. I
>> > know some of them personally. Would you argue that the
>> > loss of a doctor is less, on par with, or more grievous
>> > than the loss of a football player? I doubt that any of
>> > my friends would make front page news.
>> >
>>
>> Are you really this clueless? The guy walked away from a
>> million-dollar-a- year job, the adulation of the masses,
>> and all the babes he wanted. It's
>not
>> about the worth of the individual. (Yes, your ordinary
>> Joe's life is worth
>as
>> much as that of a pro football player.) It's just a
>> recognition that the magnitude of what the guy walked away
>> from is somewhat different from what most people leave when
>> they sign up.
>>
>
>Maybe Tillman's life sucked to him when he signed up. Maybe
>your "ordinary Joe" signed up out of pure patriotism, despite
>have a pretty good life. How do you know what they really
>gave up? Can you look into the hearts and minds of men? Your
>materialistic world view may not be able to pinpoint the true
>motivators here.
>
In his Sept 12, 2001 interview, he talked about patriotism and
his feeling that he was doing nothing for the cause. He also
mentioned the sacrifice of his older relatives in past wars. I
think Pat signed up out of pure patriotism.

[Jc Der Koe]

"John Hanson" <jhanson@northernlinks.com> wrote in message
news:dloo80hor48l6a51tv3mr651d4omv73hpi@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:58:17 GMT, "JC Der Koenig"
> <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >"Hugh Beyer" <beyerxyzzy@acm.org> wrote in message
> >news:Xns94D6D326754BChughrbeyeracmorg@63.223.5.254...
> >> harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok) wrote in
> >> news:13f90950.0404251401.7194bc9a@posting.google.com:
> >>
> >> >>What Tillman gave up for the cause was far greater than
> >> >>most that are
> >> > over there. That's the difference.<
> >> >
> >> > So, the loss of a football player is somehow more
> >> > grievous than the loss of the local cop or farmboy? I
> >> > do see your point, though. But you'd have to convince
> >> > generations of families who lost their dad/son/friend
> >> > in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Kuwait, Iraq, et.
> >> > al., that their loss is somehow diminished because,
> >> > well, Joe Average became or would have been a school
> >> > teacher, computer guy, mechanic, cop or factory worker,
> >> > and that his occupation just wasn't as glamourous as
> >> > that of a professional football player. Soldiers die,
> >> > no matter what their socioeconomic status. They send
> >> > doctors into
war
> >> > zones all the time, and they are there right now. I
> >> > know some of
them
> >> > personally. Would you argue that the loss of a doctor
> >> > is less, on
par
> >> > with, or more grievous than the loss of a football
> >> > player? I doubt that any of my friends would make front
> >> > page news.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Are you really this clueless? The guy walked away from a
million-dollar-a-
> >> year job, the adulation of the masses, and all the babes
> >> he wanted.
It's
> >not
> >> about the worth of the individual. (Yes, your ordinary
> >> Joe's life is
worth
> >as
> >> much as that of a pro football player.) It's just a
> >> recognition that
the
> >> magnitude of what the guy walked away from is somewhat
> >> different from
what
> >> most people leave when they sign up.
> >>
> >
> >Maybe Tillman's life sucked to him when he signed up.
> >Maybe your
"ordinary
> >Joe" signed up out of pure patriotism, despite have a
> >pretty good life.
How
> >do you know what they really gave up? Can you look into the
> >hearts and
minds
> >of men? Your materialistic world view may not be able to
> >pinpoint the
true
> >motivators here.
> >
> In his Sept 12, 2001 interview, he talked about patriotism
> and his feeling that he was doing nothing for the cause. He
> also mentioned the sacrifice of his older relatives in past
> wars. I think Pat signed up out of pure patriotism.
>

That's very possible. It's also possible that he wasn't
satisfied with his life as it was. It could have been
both issues.

[Pat Styles]

"JC Der Koenig" <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message
news:sxZic.1538$qm1.875@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
> "John Hanson" <jhanson@northernlinks.com> wrote in message
> news:dloo80hor48l6a51tv3mr651d4omv73hpi@4ax.com...
> > On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:58:17 GMT, "JC Der Koenig"
> > <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >
> > >"Hugh Beyer" <beyerxyzzy@acm.org> wrote in message
> > >news:Xns94D6D326754BChughrbeyeracmorg@63.223.5.254...
> > >> harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok) wrote in
> > >> news:13f90950.0404251401.7194bc9a@posting.google.com:
> > >>
> > >> >>What Tillman gave up for the cause was far greater
> > >> >>than most that are
> > >> > over there. That's the difference.<
> > >> >
> > >> > So, the loss of a football player is somehow more
> > >> > grievous than the loss of the local cop or farmboy? I
> > >> > do see your point, though. But you'd have to convince
> > >> > generations of families who lost their dad/son/friend
> > >> > in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Kuwait, Iraq, et.
> > >> > al., that their loss is somehow diminished because,
> > >> > well, Joe Average became or would have been a school
> > >> > teacher, computer guy, mechanic, cop or factory
> > >> > worker, and that his occupation just wasn't as
> > >> > glamourous as that of a professional football player.
> > >> > Soldiers die, no matter what their socioeconomic
> > >> > status. They send doctors into
> war
> > >> > zones all the time, and they are there right now. I
> > >> > know some of
> them
> > >> > personally. Would you argue that the loss of a doctor
> > >> > is less, on
> par
> > >> > with, or more grievous than the loss of a football
> > >> > player? I doubt that any of my friends would make
> > >> > front page news.
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> Are you really this clueless? The guy walked away
> > >> from a
> million-dollar-a-
> > >> year job, the adulation of the masses, and all the
> > >> babes he wanted.
> It's
> > >not
> > >> about the worth of the individual. (Yes, your ordinary
> > >> Joe's life is
> worth
> > >as
> > >> much as that of a pro football player.) It's just a
> > >> recognition that
> the
> > >> magnitude of what the guy walked away from is somewhat
> > >> different from
> what
> > >> most people leave when they sign up.
> > >>
> > >
> > >Maybe Tillman's life sucked to him when he signed up.
> > >Maybe your
> "ordinary
> > >Joe" signed up out of pure patriotism, despite have a
> > >pretty good life.
> How
> > >do you know what they really gave up? Can you look into
> > >the hearts and
> minds
> > >of men? Your materialistic world view may not be able to
> > >pinpoint the
> true
> > >motivators here.
> > >
> > In his Sept 12, 2001 interview, he talked about patriotism
> > and his feeling that he was doing nothing for the cause.
> > He also mentioned the sacrifice of his older relatives in
> > past wars. I think Pat signed up out of pure patriotism.
> >
>
> That's very possible. It's also possible that he wasn't
> satisfied with his life as it was. It could have been
> both issues.

You don't know anything about him, do you?
ps

[Adam Fahy]

JC Der Koenig wrote:

> "John Hanson" <jhanson@northernlinks.com> wrote in message
> news:dloo80hor48l6a51tv3mr651d4omv73hpi@4ax.com...

>>In his Sept 12, 2001 interview, he talked about patriotism
>>and his feeling that he was doing nothing for the cause. He
>>also mentioned the sacrifice of his older relatives in past
>>wars. I think Pat signed up out of pure patriotism.

> That's very possible. It's also possible that he wasn't
> satisfied with his life as it was. It could have been
> both issues.

Excuse me, but what the fuck does it matter? Why does everyone
have to be some sort of moron iconoclast? Is that what the
cool kids are doing nowadays?

-Adam

[Jc Der Koe]

"Pat Styles" <gstyles@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:JPZic.39636$Rz3.29275@fed1read05...
> "JC Der Koenig" <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message
> news:sxZic.1538$qm1.875@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
> > "John Hanson" <jhanson@northernlinks.com> wrote in message
> > news:dloo80hor48l6a51tv3mr651d4omv73hpi@4ax.com...
> > > On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:58:17 GMT, "JC Der Koenig"
> > > <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> > >
> > > >"Hugh Beyer" <beyerxyzzy@acm.org> wrote in message
> > > >news:Xns94D6D326754BChughrbeyeracmorg@63.223.5.254...
> > > >> harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok) wrote in news:13f90950.0-
> > > >> 404251401.7194bc9a@posting.google.com:
> > > >>
> > > >> >>What Tillman gave up for the cause was far greater
> > > >> >>than most that
are
> > > >> > over there. That's the difference.<
> > > >> >
> > > >> > So, the loss of a football player is somehow more
> > > >> > grievous than
the
> > > >> > loss of the local cop or farmboy? I do see your
> > > >> > point, though.
But
> > > >> > you'd have to convince generations of families who
> > > >> > lost their dad/son/friend in WWII, Korea, Vietnam,
> > > >> > Somalia, Kuwait, Iraq,
et.
> > > >> > al., that their loss is somehow diminished because,
> > > >> > well, Joe
Average
> > > >> > became or would have been a school teacher,
> > > >> > computer guy,
mechanic,
> > > >> > cop or factory worker, and that his occupation just
> > > >> > wasn't as glamourous as that of a professional
> > > >> > football player. Soldiers
die,
> > > >> > no matter what their socioeconomic status. They
> > > >> > send doctors
into
> > war
> > > >> > zones all the time, and they are there right now. I
> > > >> > know some of
> > them
> > > >> > personally. Would you argue that the loss of a
> > > >> > doctor is less,
on
> > par
> > > >> > with, or more grievous than the loss of a football
> > > >> > player? I
doubt
> > > >> > that any of my friends would make front page news.
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >> Are you really this clueless? The guy walked away
> > > >> from a
> > million-dollar-a-
> > > >> year job, the adulation of the masses, and all the
> > > >> babes he wanted.
> > It's
> > > >not
> > > >> about the worth of the individual. (Yes, your
> > > >> ordinary Joe's life
is
> > worth
> > > >as
> > > >> much as that of a pro football player.) It's just a
> > > >> recognition
that
> > the
> > > >> magnitude of what the guy walked away from is
> > > >> somewhat different
from
> > what
> > > >> most people leave when they sign up.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >Maybe Tillman's life sucked to him when he signed up.
> > > >Maybe your
> > "ordinary
> > > >Joe" signed up out of pure patriotism, despite have a
> > > >pretty good
life.
> > How
> > > >do you know what they really gave up? Can you look into
> > > >the hearts
and
> > minds
> > > >of men? Your materialistic world view may not be able
> > > >to pinpoint the
> > true
> > > >motivators here.
> > > >
> > > In his Sept 12, 2001 interview, he talked about
> > > patriotism and his feeling that he was doing nothing for
> > > the cause. He also mentioned the sacrifice of his older
> > > relatives in past wars. I think Pat signed up out of
> > > pure patriotism.
> > >
> >
> > That's very possible. It's also possible that he wasn't
> > satisfied with
his
> > life as it was. It could have been both issues.
>
> You don't know anything about him, do you?
> ps
>
>

What do you know about him? Did you read his mind? I don't see
him as different than any of the soldiers I served with for 12
years. They all had their reasons.

[Dok]

Hugh Beyer <beyerxyzzy@acm.org> wrote in message
news:<Xns94D6D326754BChughrbeyeracmorg@63.223.5.254>...
> harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok) wrote in
> news:13f90950.0404251401.7194bc9a@posting.google.com:
>
> >>What Tillman gave up for the cause was far greater than
> >>most that are
> > over there. That's the difference.<
> >
> > So, the loss of a football player is somehow more grievous
> > than the loss of the local cop or farmboy? I do see your
> > point, though. But you'd have to convince generations of
> > families who lost their dad/son/friend in WWII, Korea,
> > Vietnam, Somalia, Kuwait, Iraq, et. al., that their loss
> > is somehow diminished because, well, Joe Average became or
> > would have been a school teacher, computer guy, mechanic,
> > cop or factory worker, and that his occupation just wasn't
> > as glamourous as that of a professional football player.
> > Soldiers die, no matter what their socioeconomic status.
> > They send doctors into war zones all the time, and they
> > are there right now. I know some of them personally. Would
> > you argue that the loss of a doctor is less, on par with,
> > or more grievous than the loss of a football player? I
> > doubt that any of my friends would make front page news.
> >
>
> Are you really this clueless? The guy walked away from a
> million-dollar-a- year job, the adulation of the masses, and
> all the babes he wanted. It's not about the worth of the
> individual. (Yes, your ordinary Joe's life is worth as much
> as that of a pro football player.) It's just a recognition
> that the magnitude of what the guy walked away from is
> somewhat different from what most people leave when they
> sign up.
>
> Hugh

No, I am not clueless, are you? Did you ever stop to think
that he already had all the women he wanted, couldn't care
less about the money, and maybe was not content playing
football (read: material things) but really deep down he
always wanted to be a soldier????

Maybe what you are trying to say is that YOU would not walk
away from material things to be a soldier. Don't be ashamed--I
think that's what most people would do, too.

When was the last time you were in uniform and walked away
from your crying wife and kids knowing full well you might
never come back because:

1. You choose to put your "calling" before your wife and,
most importantly, your kids?

2. some dumbass shoots you thru the head...?

So, by your argument, Tillman leaves behind material things to
go and do his duty (I don't know if he was married or had
kids). By my argument, your Average Joe leaves behind his
menial job, wife and kids---kids who no longer have a
daddy--to do his duty. Tell me again, whose magnitude of
"sacrifice" is greater????

Dok

[Karl Hungu]

"Mark Polis" <b.d.bop@suscom.net> wrote in message
news:108ouhq61s91c7d@corp.supernews.com...

> Do you care what this miscreant thinks? You want to debate
> with him? Get real.

Just because his thoughts don't carry any weight doesn't mean
they won't be amusing.

[Dok]

"Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.dowdy@commiecast.net> wrote in message
news:<EfudnZ89HP9PsxHdRVn-gQ@comcast.com>...
> "Dok" <harleydok@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:13f90950.0404251313.25c21f0e@posting.google.com...
> >
> > Sadly, this is probably not the case at all. Within 20
> > years, the kids of our next generation will not know
> > anything about the recent heroes other than the street or
> > building named after them. How many people under age 50
> > know who Audie Murphy was?
>
> Well, me, but I admit being just a wee bit more interested
> in things military than most.

You and me and a few other respondents in this thread.

> > If you go into any Army hospital or Army medical
> > facility, one corridor will have a wall with rows of
> > pictures of soldiers in the medical field (medics,
> > chopper evac pilots, etc.) who were awarded the
> > Congressional Medal of Honor
>
> Nitpick: It's official name is the Medal of Honor.
> 'Congressional' is common and usually accepted but not
> accurate.

You are right, sorry. It's not one I have in my scant
collection...:) If you haven't seen one in person, most
military museums have at least one on display. I was horrified
to see that the highest military honor that can be bestowed on
a US soldier is represented by a cheaply cast medal on par
with a bowling trophy. One would think such an honor would be
represented by a quality piece. I think more craftsmanship was
put into the Olympic medal than the Medal of Honor.

> https://www.perscom.army.mil/tagd/tioh/Awards/MOH1.htm

Great site, chilling stories. If I remember my count
correctly, there were 35 or so plaques hanging on the Army
hospital wall dedicated to the soldiers in the medical field.

>
> > My heart goes out to the Tillman family and to the
> > families of all the other professional and part-time
> > soldiers who have been killed or injured.
> >
> I wholeheartedly echo these sentiments.
>
> Glenn D.

[Dok]

nospam@bogusemail.com (gman99) wrote in message
news:<20040425194428.976$F9@newsreader.com>...
> >
> > Sadly, this is probably not the case at all. Within 20
> > years, the kids of our next generation will not know
> > anything about the recent heroes other than the street or
> > building named after them. How many people under age 50
> > know who Audie Murphy was?
> >
> I'm neither American nor over 50 and I know who Audie Murphy
> is. I pray that you are not trying to compare this Tillman
> character with Audie Murphy...please. Going off to a foriegn
> land and getting oneself killed does NOT make one a hero.

I am not copmparing him to Murphy. My point was that another
poster talked about how Tillman will be "remembered for
generations", but that I'd bet most in the younger generations
would not know who Murphy was.

Dok

[Hugh Beyer]

harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok) wrote in
news:13f90950.0404260827.704a9d61@posting.google.com:

> Hugh Beyer <beyerxyzzy@acm.org> wrote in message
> news:<Xns94D6D326754BChughrbeyeracmorg@63.223.5.254>...
>> harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok) wrote in
>> news:13f90950.0404251401.7194bc9a@posting.google.com:
>>
>> >>What Tillman gave up for the cause was far greater than
>> >>most that are
>> > over there. That's the difference.<
>> >
>> > So, the loss of a football player is somehow more
>> > grievous than the loss of the local cop or farmboy? I do
>> > see your point, though. But you'd have to convince
>> > generations of families who lost their dad/son/friend in
>> > WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Kuwait, Iraq, et. al.,
>> > that their loss is somehow diminished because, well, Joe
>> > Average became or would have been a school teacher,
>> > computer guy, mechanic, cop or factory worker, and that
>> > his occupation just wasn't as glamourous as that of a
>> > professional football player. Soldiers die, no matter
>> > what their socioeconomic status. They send doctors into
>> > war zones all the time, and they are there right now. I
>> > know some of them personally. Would you argue that the
>> > loss of a doctor is less, on par with, or more grievous
>> > than the loss of a football player? I doubt that any of
>> > my friends would make front page news.
>> >
>>
>> Are you really this clueless? The guy walked away from a
>> million-dollar-a- year job, the adulation of the masses,
>> and all the babes he wanted. It's not about the worth of
>> the individual. (Yes, your ordinary Joe's life is worth as
>> much as that of a pro football player.) It's just a
>> recognition that the magnitude of what the guy walked away
>> from is somewhat different from what most people leave when
>> they sign up.
>>
>> Hugh
>
> No, I am not clueless, are you? Did you ever stop to think
> that he already had all the women he wanted, couldn't care
> less about the money, and maybe was not content playing
> football (read: material things) but really deep down he
> always wanted to be a soldier????
>
> Maybe what you are trying to say is that YOU would not walk
> away from material things to be a soldier. Don't be
> ashamed--I think that's what most people would do, too.
>
> When was the last time you were in uniform and walked away
> from your crying wife and kids knowing full well you might
> never come back because:
>
> 1. You choose to put your "calling" before your wife and,
> most importantly, your kids?
>
> 2. some dumbass shoots you thru the head...?
>
> So, by your argument, Tillman leaves behind material things
> to go and do his duty (I don't know if he was married or had
> kids). By my argument, your Average Joe leaves behind his
> menial job, wife and kids---kids who no longer have a
> daddy--to do his duty. Tell me again, whose magnitude of
> "sacrifice" is greater????
>
> Dok
>

The question raised in this thread is why one is a media story
and the other isn't. It's simple. One happens every day. The
other doesn't.

Get it yet?

Hugh

--
Help! My myofibrillar material is disorganized!

[Karl Hungu]

"Larry Hodges" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:276dnX02cLf4GBHdRVn-ug@comcast.com...

> Karl my M. Savage brotha, don't waste your breath bud. They
> can't carry
on
> a decent conversation, so just poke them with a stick.

That question *was* the stick! :^)

[Dok]

"Gooserider" <noway@mousepotato.com> wrote in message
news:<ZLZic.75336$I83.1780484@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
> "Hugh Beyer" <beyerxyzzy@acm.org> wrote in message
> news:Xns94D6D326754BChughrbeyeracmorg@63.223.5.254...
> > harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok) wrote in
> > news:13f90950.0404251401.7194bc9a@posting.google.com:
> >
> > >>What Tillman gave up for the cause was far greater than
> > >>most that are
> > > over there. That's the difference.<
> > >
> > > So, the loss of a football player is somehow more
> > > grievous than the loss of the local cop or farmboy? I do
> > > see your point, though. But you'd have to convince
> > > generations of families who lost their dad/son/friend in
> > > WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Kuwait, Iraq, et. al.,
> > > that their loss is somehow diminished because, well, Joe
> > > Average became or would have been a school teacher,
> > > computer guy, mechanic, cop or factory worker, and that
> > > his occupation just wasn't as glamourous as that of a
> > > professional football player. Soldiers die, no matter
> > > what their socioeconomic status. They send doctors into
> > > war zones all the time, and they are there right now. I
> > > know some of them personally. Would you argue that the
> > > loss of a doctor is less, on par with, or more grievous
> > > than the loss of a football player? I doubt that any of
> > > my friends would make front page news.
> > >
> >
> > Are you really this clueless? The guy walked away from a
> > million-dollar-a- year job, the adulation of the masses,
> > and all the babes he wanted.
>
> He also walked away from his new wife and baby daughter.

He was married with a child??? God, I didn't know that. This
is terrible. This truly breaks my heart.

Dok

[Dok]

Hugh Beyer <beyerxyzzy@acm.org> wrote in message
news:<Xns94D786F4074B3hughrbeyeracmorg@63.223.5.254>...
> harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok) wrote in
> news:13f90950.0404260827.704a9d61@posting.google.com:
>
> > Hugh Beyer <beyerxyzzy@acm.org> wrote in message
> > news:<Xns94D6D326754BChughrbeyeracmorg@63.223.5.254>...
> >> harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok) wrote in
> >> news:13f90950.0404251401.7194bc9a@posting.google.com:
> >>
> >> >>What Tillman gave up for the cause was far greater than
> >> >>most that are
> >> > over there. That's the difference.<
> >> >
> >> > So, the loss of a football player is somehow more
> >> > grievous than the loss of the local cop or farmboy? I
> >> > do see your point, though. But you'd have to convince
> >> > generations of families who lost their dad/son/friend
> >> > in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Kuwait, Iraq, et.
> >> > al., that their loss is somehow diminished because,
> >> > well, Joe Average became or would have been a school
> >> > teacher, computer guy, mechanic, cop or factory worker,
> >> > and that his occupation just wasn't as glamourous as
> >> > that of a professional football player. Soldiers die,
> >> > no matter what their socioeconomic status. They send
> >> > doctors into war zones all the time, and they are there
> >> > right now. I know some of them personally. Would you
> >> > argue that the loss of a doctor is less, on par with,
> >> > or more grievous than the loss of a football player? I
> >> > doubt that any of my friends would make front page
> >> > news.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Are you really this clueless? The guy walked away from a
> >> million-dollar-a- year job, the adulation of the masses,
> >> and all the babes he wanted. It's not about the worth of
> >> the individual. (Yes, your ordinary Joe's life is worth
> >> as much as that of a pro football player.) It's just a
> >> recognition that the magnitude of what the guy walked
> >> away from is somewhat different from what most people
> >> leave when they sign up.
> >>
> >> Hugh
> >
> > No, I am not clueless, are you? Did you ever stop to think
> > that he already had all the women he wanted, couldn't care
> > less about the money, and maybe was not content playing
> > football (read: material things) but really deep down he
> > always wanted to be a soldier????
> >
> > Maybe what you are trying to say is that YOU would not
> > walk away from material things to be a soldier. Don't be
> > ashamed--I think that's what most people would do, too.
> >
> > When was the last time you were in uniform and walked away
> > from your crying wife and kids knowing full well you might
> > never come back because:
> >
> > 1. You choose to put your "calling" before your wife and,
> > most importantly, your kids?
> >
> > 2. some dumbass shoots you thru the head...?
> >
> > So, by your argument, Tillman leaves behind material
> > things to go and do his duty (I don't know if he was
> > married or had kids). By my argument, your Average Joe
> > leaves behind his menial job, wife and kids---kids who no
> > longer have a daddy--to do his duty. Tell me again, whose
> > magnitude of "sacrifice" is greater????
> >
> > Dok
> >
>
> The question raised in this thread is why one is a media
> story and the other isn't. It's simple. One happens every
> day. The other doesn't.
>
> Get it yet?
>
> Hugh

Yeah, I got it said it in my first response. We are saying the
same thing. Here's the version that may be clearer, though not
as delicate:

1. Tillman was a profession athlete.

2. Athletes occupy a priveledged place in our society merely
by being an athlete, or deity heretofore.

3. Athletes make front page news because schmucks think they
are Gods, and Gods sell newspapers, sell tickets, gets
ratings, and make a select few a lot of money.

That's the answer as to why it's a media "big deal." We said
the same thing, you and I. Now for reality:

***4. Joe Athlete's death is a big fucking deal because he
leaves behind a fucking football. Some pro team is
grief-stricken over the amount of potential revenue they just
lost. Joe Average's death is less glamourous because he only
leaves behind a wife and kids, but gets his name engraved on
the VFW memorial in his home town (hell, anyone can do that..)

***5. This Joe Athlete didn't want the money or the babes or
your undying adoration, else he would have taken it.

***6. Dead is dead, be it Joe Athlete or Joe Average.

I know it's a disappointment to many, but contrary to popular
mystique, being a pro athlete does not make you a God. See #3
and then #6.

There, I said it.

My condolences to the Tillman family on the loss of their son.

Dok

[Adam Fahy]

Dok wrote:

> Yeah, I got it said it in my first response. We are saying
> the same thing. Here's the version that may be clearer,
> though not as delicate:
>
> 1. Tillman was a profession athlete.
>
> 2. Athletes occupy a priveledged place in our society
> merely by being an athlete, or deity heretofore.
>
> 3. Athletes make front page news because schmucks think
> they are Gods, and Gods sell newspapers, sell tickets,
> gets ratings, and make a select few a lot of money.
>
> That's the answer as to why it's a media "big deal." We said
> the same thing, you and I. Now for reality:

Uh, or how about this:

1. Athletes play sports
2. People watch sports
3. People are interested in athletes
4. Athletes become famous
5. Things that people find interesting becomes news
6. Important things happening to famous people is news

The rest of your post was just you being a cranky asshole
(there, I said
it).

-Adam

[Dok]

"JC Der Koenig" <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message
news:<H_Zic.1548$St1.131@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com>...
> "Pat Styles" <gstyles@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:JPZic.39636$Rz3.29275@fed1read05...
> > "JC Der Koenig" <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message
> > news:sxZic.1538$qm1.875@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
> > > "John Hanson" <jhanson@northernlinks.com> wrote in
> > > message
> > > news:dloo80hor48l6a51tv3mr651d4omv73hpi@4ax.com...
> > > > On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:58:17 GMT, "JC Der Koenig"
> > > > <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> > > >
> > > > >"Hugh Beyer" <beyerxyzzy@acm.org> wrote in message
> > > > >news:Xns94D6D326754BChughrbeyeracmorg@63.223.5.254...
> > > > >> harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok) wrote in news:13f90950-
> > > > >> .0404251401.7194bc9a@posting.google.com:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >>What Tillman gave up for the cause was far
> > > > >> >>greater than most that
> are
> > > > >> > over there. That's the difference.<
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > So, the loss of a football player is somehow more
> > > > >> > grievous than
> the
> > > > >> > loss of the local cop or farmboy? I do see your
> > > > >> > point, though.
> But
> > > > >> > you'd have to convince generations of families
> > > > >> > who lost their dad/son/friend in WWII, Korea,
> > > > >> > Vietnam, Somalia, Kuwait, Iraq,
> et.
> > > > >> > al., that their loss is somehow diminished
> > > > >> > because, well, Joe
> Average
> > > > >> > became or would have been a school teacher,
> > > > >> > computer guy,
> mechanic,
> > > > >> > cop or factory worker, and that his occupation
> > > > >> > just wasn't as glamourous as that of a
> > > > >> > professional football player. Soldiers
> die,
> > > > >> > no matter what their socioeconomic status. They
> > > > >> > send doctors
> into war
> > > > >> > zones all the time, and they are there right now.
> > > > >> > I know some of
> them
> > > > >> > personally. Would you argue that the loss of a
> > > > >> > doctor is less,
> on par
> > > > >> > with, or more grievous than the loss of a
> > > > >> > football player? I
> doubt
> > > > >> > that any of my friends would make front page
> > > > >> > news.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Are you really this clueless? The guy walked away
> > > > >> from a
> million-dollar-a-
> > > > >> year job, the adulation of the masses, and all the
> > > > >> babes he wanted.
> It's not
> > > > >> about the worth of the individual. (Yes, your
> > > > >> ordinary Joe's life
> is worth as
> > > > >> much as that of a pro football player.) It's just a
> > > > >> recognition
> that the
> > > > >> magnitude of what the guy walked away from is
> > > > >> somewhat different
> from what
> > > > >> most people leave when they sign up.
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >Maybe Tillman's life sucked to him when he signed up.
> > > > >Maybe your
> "ordinary
> > > > >Joe" signed up out of pure patriotism, despite have a
> > > > >pretty good
> life. How
> > > > >do you know what they really gave up? Can you look
> > > > >into the hearts
> and minds
> > > > >of men? Your materialistic world view may not be able
> > > > >to pinpoint the
> true
> > > > >motivators here.
> > > > >
> > > > In his Sept 12, 2001 interview, he talked about
> > > > patriotism and his feeling that he was doing nothing
> > > > for the cause. He also mentioned the sacrifice of his
> > > > older relatives in past wars. I think Pat signed up
> > > > out of pure patriotism.
> > > >
> > >
> > > That's very possible. It's also possible that he wasn't
> > > satisfied with
> his
> > > life as it was. It could have been both issues.
> >
> > You don't know anything about him, do you?
> > ps
> >
> >
>
> What do you know about him? Did you read his mind? I don't
> see him as different than any of the soldiers I served with
> for 12 years. They all had their reasons.

Finally, a fellow ex-soldier who gets it.

Dok

[Pat Styles]

"JC Der Koenig" <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message
news:H_Zic.1548$St1.131@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
> "Pat Styles" <gstyles@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:JPZic.39636$Rz3.29275@fed1read05...
> > "JC Der Koenig" <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message
> > news:sxZic.1538$qm1.875@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
> > > "John Hanson" <jhanson@northernlinks.com> wrote in
> > > message
> > > news:dloo80hor48l6a51tv3mr651d4omv73hpi@4ax.com...
> > > > On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:58:17 GMT, "JC Der Koenig"
> > > > <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> > > >
> > > > >"Hugh Beyer" <beyerxyzzy@acm.org> wrote in message
> > > > >news:Xns94D6D326754BChughrbeyeracmorg@63.223.5.254...
> > > > >> harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok) wrote in news:13f90950-
> > > > >> .0404251401.7194bc9a@posting.google.com:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >>What Tillman gave up for the cause was far
> > > > >> >>greater than most that
> are
> > > > >> > over there. That's the difference.<
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > So, the loss of a football player is somehow more
> > > > >> > grievous than
> the
> > > > >> > loss of the local cop or farmboy? I do see your
> > > > >> > point, though.
> But
> > > > >> > you'd have to convince generations of families
> > > > >> > who lost their dad/son/friend in WWII, Korea,
> > > > >> > Vietnam, Somalia, Kuwait, Iraq,
> et.
> > > > >> > al., that their loss is somehow diminished
> > > > >> > because, well, Joe
> Average
> > > > >> > became or would have been a school teacher,
> > > > >> > computer guy,
> mechanic,
> > > > >> > cop or factory worker, and that his occupation
> > > > >> > just wasn't as glamourous as that of a
> > > > >> > professional football player. Soldiers
> die,
> > > > >> > no matter what their socioeconomic status. They
> > > > >> > send doctors
> into
> > > war
> > > > >> > zones all the time, and they are there right now.
> > > > >> > I know some of
> > > them
> > > > >> > personally. Would you argue that the loss of a
> > > > >> > doctor is less,
> on
> > > par
> > > > >> > with, or more grievous than the loss of a
> > > > >> > football player? I
> doubt
> > > > >> > that any of my friends would make front page
> > > > >> > news.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Are you really this clueless? The guy walked away
> > > > >> from a
> > > million-dollar-a-
> > > > >> year job, the adulation of the masses, and all the
> > > > >> babes he wanted.
> > > It's
> > > > >not
> > > > >> about the worth of the individual. (Yes, your
> > > > >> ordinary Joe's life
> is
> > > worth
> > > > >as
> > > > >> much as that of a pro football player.) It's just a
> > > > >> recognition
> that
> > > the
> > > > >> magnitude of what the guy walked away from is
> > > > >> somewhat different
> from
> > > what
> > > > >> most people leave when they sign up.
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >Maybe Tillman's life sucked to him when he signed up.
> > > > >Maybe your
> > > "ordinary
> > > > >Joe" signed up out of pure patriotism, despite have a
> > > > >pretty good
> life.
> > > How
> > > > >do you know what they really gave up? Can you look
> > > > >into the hearts
> and
> > > minds
> > > > >of men? Your materialistic world view may not be able
> > > > >to pinpoint the
> > > true
> > > > >motivators here.
> > > > >
> > > > In his Sept 12, 2001 interview, he talked about
> > > > patriotism and his feeling that he was doing nothing
> > > > for the cause. He also mentioned the sacrifice of his
> > > > older relatives in past wars. I think Pat signed up
> > > > out of pure patriotism.
> > > >
> > >
> > > That's very possible. It's also possible that he wasn't
> > > satisfied with
> his
> > > life as it was. It could have been both issues.
> >
> > You don't know anything about him, do you?
> > ps
> >
> >
>
> What do you know about him?

He graduated from a state university, while competing in a
major D-1 sport, in a major D-1 conference, and excelling at a
position he was too small for, in 3.5 years. That's almost
superhuman. Clearly an exceptionally talented and motivated
person. He also publicly stated the reasons he and his brother
enlisted and went straight into special forces. This was not a
person who was dissatisfied and joined the service due to not
having any other options.

> Did you read his mind?

No.

> I don't see him as different than any of the soldiers I
> served with for 12 years. They all had their reasons.

How many of hte soldiers you served with were former
professional athletes?
ps

[John Hudso]

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 00:26:11 GMT, "JC Der Koenig"
<jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote:

>Who gives a fuck? Being a former pro athlete makes
>someone special? Do you hang around locker rooms and
>sniff jock straps?

Many of us don't, but Wanker McD finds it something of a
turn-on, although in fairness he does prefer lady jocks (I
think)!! ;o)

[Jc Der Koe]

Who gives a fuck? Being a former pro athlete makes
someone special? Do you hang around locker rooms and
sniff jock straps?

--
You take stupid to a new level. -- MFW

"Pat Styles" <gstyles@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:nohjc.1236$6L3.411@fed1read05...
> "JC Der Koenig" <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message
> news:H_Zic.1548$St1.131@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
> > "Pat Styles" <gstyles@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> > news:JPZic.39636$Rz3.29275@fed1read05...
> > > "JC Der Koenig" <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message
> > > news:sxZic.1538$qm1.875@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
> > > > "John Hanson" <jhanson@northernlinks.com> wrote in
> > > > message
> > > > news:dloo80hor48l6a51tv3mr651d4omv73hpi@4ax.com...
> > > > > On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:58:17 GMT, "JC Der Koenig"
> > > > > <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> > > > >
> > > > > >"Hugh Beyer" <beyerxyzzy@acm.org> wrote in message
> > > > > >news:Xns94D6D326754BChughrbeyeracmorg@63.223.5.254-
> > > > > >...
> > > > > >> harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok) wrote in news:13f909-
> > > > > >> 50.0404251401.7194bc9a@posting.google.com:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >>What Tillman gave up for the cause was far
> > > > > >> >>greater than most
that
> > are
> > > > > >> > over there. That's the difference.<
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > So, the loss of a football player is somehow
> > > > > >> > more grievous
than
> > the
> > > > > >> > loss of the local cop or farmboy? I do see your
> > > > > >> > point,
though.
> > But
> > > > > >> > you'd have to convince generations of families
> > > > > >> > who lost their dad/son/friend in WWII, Korea,
> > > > > >> > Vietnam, Somalia, Kuwait,
Iraq,
> > et.
> > > > > >> > al., that their loss is somehow diminished
> > > > > >> > because, well, Joe
> > Average
> > > > > >> > became or would have been a school teacher,
> > > > > >> > computer guy,
> > mechanic,
> > > > > >> > cop or factory worker, and that his occupation
> > > > > >> > just wasn't as glamourous as that of a
> > > > > >> > professional football player.
Soldiers
> > die,
> > > > > >> > no matter what their socioeconomic status. They
> > > > > >> > send doctors
> > into
> > > > war
> > > > > >> > zones all the time, and they are there right
> > > > > >> > now. I know
some of
> > > > them
> > > > > >> > personally. Would you argue that the loss of a
> > > > > >> > doctor is
less,
> > on
> > > > par
> > > > > >> > with, or more grievous than the loss of a
> > > > > >> > football player? I
> > doubt
> > > > > >> > that any of my friends would make front page
> > > > > >> > news.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Are you really this clueless? The guy walked away
> > > > > >> from a
> > > > million-dollar-a-
> > > > > >> year job, the adulation of the masses, and all
> > > > > >> the babes he
wanted.
> > > > It's
> > > > > >not
> > > > > >> about the worth of the individual. (Yes, your
> > > > > >> ordinary Joe's
life
> > is
> > > > worth
> > > > > >as
> > > > > >> much as that of a pro football player.) It's just
> > > > > >> a recognition
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > >> magnitude of what the guy walked away from is
> > > > > >> somewhat
different
> > from
> > > > what
> > > > > >> most people leave when they sign up.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Maybe Tillman's life sucked to him when he signed
> > > > > >up. Maybe your
> > > > "ordinary
> > > > > >Joe" signed up out of pure patriotism, despite have
> > > > > >a pretty good
> > life.
> > > > How
> > > > > >do you know what they really gave up? Can you look
> > > > > >into the
hearts
> > and
> > > > minds
> > > > > >of men? Your materialistic world view may not be
> > > > > >able to pinpoint
the
> > > > true
> > > > > >motivators here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > In his Sept 12, 2001 interview, he talked about
> > > > > patriotism and his feeling that he was doing nothing
> > > > > for the cause. He also
mentioned
> > > > > the sacrifice of his older relatives in past wars. I
> > > > > think Pat
signed
> > > > > up out of pure patriotism.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > That's very possible. It's also possible that he
> > > > wasn't satisfied
with
> > his
> > > > life as it was. It could have been both issues.
> > >
> > > You don't know anything about him, do you?
> > > ps
> > >
> > >
> >
> > What do you know about him?
>
> He graduated from a state university, while competing in a
> major D-1
sport, in a
> major D-1 conference, and excelling at a position he was too
> small for, in
3.5
> years. That's almost superhuman. Clearly an exceptionally
> talented and motivated person. He also publicly stated the
> reasons he and his brother enlisted and went straight into
> special forces. This was not a person who
was
> dissatisfied and joined the service due to not having any
> other options.
>
> > Did you read his mind?
>
> No.
>
> > I don't see him as different than any of the soldiers I
> > served with for 12 years. They all
had
> > their reasons.
>
> How many of hte soldiers you served with were former
> professional
athletes?
> ps

[Mr.Melnick]

So Tillman walked away from Big Money, Fame, and Pussy? That
IS what you said is the reason he deserves so much
attention! Simple point is its a scam! I think Tillman was a
hero, yes he was, he died while serving in the military
under combat, so he IS a hero. But he deserves no more
attaention than does the guy who singed on for college
credits and left behind a family of four. Its the same
twisted mentality that a STAR gets preffered treatment. Look
at Michael Jackson, Money buys a lot. anoy other person
would be sitting in jail awaiting trial.

America still has not learned a thing. I mean, its all back to
normal for everyone isnt it? Nobody can accept the basic facts
that the planet is fucked, held together by ozone rotted
rubber bands, and is going to implode soon. So we all still
wear rose colored glasses and think its OK. We would rather
spend money on a SUV, Diet Foods, Worry about how fat we are,
and who is the big TV glamour queen for the week! Jlow--I mean
there alone is reason enough to vomit. TV is obsessed by
reporting on this sluts activities like its just SO important
for us to know.

Major priority mixup. We should be prepping to live through
the shitstorm that is coming. Blind mice dont get very far.

Melnick \\\\ Hugh Beyer <beyerxyzzy@acm.org> wrote in message
news:Xns94D6D326754BChughrbeyeracmorg@63.223.5.254...
> harleydok@hotmail.com (Dok) wrote in
> news:13f90950.0404251401.7194bc9a@posting.google.com:
>
> >>What Tillman gave up for the cause was far greater than
> >>most that are
> > over there. That's the difference.<
> >
> > So, the loss of a football player is somehow more grievous
> > than the loss of the local cop or farmboy? I do see your
> > point, though. But you'd have to convince generations of
> > families who lost their dad/son/friend in WWII, Korea,
> > Vietnam, Somalia, Kuwait, Iraq, et. al., that their loss
> > is somehow diminished because, well, Joe Average became or
> > would have been a school teacher, computer guy, mechanic,
> > cop or factory worker, and that his occupation just wasn't
> > as glamourous as that of a professional football player.
> > Soldiers die, no matter what their socioeconomic status.
> > They send doctors into war zones all the time, and they
> > are there right now. I know some of them personally. Would
> > you argue that the loss of a doctor is less, on par with,
> > or more grievous than the loss of a football player? I
> > doubt that any of my friends would make front page news.
> >
>
> Are you really this clueless? The guy walked away from a
> million-dollar-a- year job, the adulation of the masses, and
> all the babes he wanted. It's
not
> about the worth of the individual. (Yes, your ordinary Joe's
> life is worth
as
> much as that of a pro football player.) It's just a
> recognition that the magnitude of what the guy walked away
> from is somewhat different from what most people leave when
> they sign up.
>
> Hugh
>
>
> --
> Help! My myofibrillar material is disorganized!

[Hugh Beyer]

"Mr.Melnick" <Mel@Nick.Comet> wrote in
news:Phrjc.3955$Qy.34@fed1read04:

> So Tillman walked away from Big Money, Fame, and Pussy? That
> IS what you said is the reason he deserves so much
> attention! Simple point is its a scam! I think Tillman was a
> hero, yes he was, he died while serving in the military
> under combat, so he IS a hero. But he deserves no more
> attaention than does the guy who singed on for college
> credits and left behind a family of four. Its the same
> twisted mentality that a STAR gets preffered treatment. Look
> at Michael Jackson, Money buys a lot. anoy other person
> would be sitting in jail awaiting trial.
>

I'm done arguing with people whose only point is that the
world shouldn't be the way it is, but I want to correct a
misperception I carelessly started: He didn't walk away from
pussy, he walked away from a new wife and child. No slur
intended by my original inaccurate hyperbole.

Hugh

--
Help! My myofibrillar material is disorganized!

[Dok]

Adam Fahy <mailme@myobligatory.com> wrote in message
news:<9khjc.35066$2v.33535@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>...
> Dok wrote:
>
> > Yeah, I got it said it in my first response. We are saying
> > the same thing. Here's the version that may be clearer,
> > though not as delicate:
> >
> > 1. Tillman was a profession athlete.
> >
> > 2. Athletes occupy a priveledged place in our society
> > merely by being an athlete, or deity heretofore.
> >
> > 3. Athletes make front page news because schmucks think
> > they are Gods, and Gods sell newspapers, sell tickets,
> > gets ratings, and make a select few a lot of money.
> >
> > That's the answer as to why it's a media "big deal." We
> > said the same thing, you and I. Now for reality:
>
> Uh, or how about this:
>
> 1. Athletes play sports
> 2. People watch sports
> 3. People are interested in athletes
> 4. Athletes become famous
> 5. Things that people find interesting becomes news
> 6. Important things happening to famous people is news
>
> The rest of your post was just you being a cranky asshole
> (there, I said
> it).
>
>
> -Adam

Yeah, I was being a little cranky. I got some good sleep last
night. You have said it perfectly, and delicately. Thanks.

I think we are all saying the same thing. Celebrity makes the
news. Having been in the military, done my thing and having
dealt with dead soldiers and their families, I saw how little
of a pot most young soldiers' families had to piss in. Most
were not overly educated, many were there to have the gov't
"take care" of them, others were there to pay for school or to
learn a trade. But they were all there willingly and really
believed in what they were doing (sound familiar...?) The
thing that got to me most was the kids. Daddy died not by
accident, but by design. Maybe it's just me, but
everything...EVERYTHING...is secondary to the safety and
well-being of my child.

Again, it's just sad that one guy's death makes headline news
while hundreds of others go unnoticed. Chalk it up to
celebrity.

I'm done, thanks for listening.

Dok

[Pat Styles]

"JC Der Koenig" <jcderkoenig@ibm.com> wrote in message
news:DMhjc.2258$5p1.468@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com...
> Who gives a fuck? Being a former pro athlete makes
> someone special? Do you hang around locker rooms and
> sniff jock straps?
>
>
> --
> You take stupid to a new level. -- MFW

Indeed.
ps

[David]

"Mr.Melnick" <Mel@Nick.Comet> wrote in message
news:Phrjc.3955$Qy.34@fed1read04...
> So Tillman walked away from Big Money, Fame, and Pussy? That
> IS what you said is the reason he deserves so much
> attention! Simple point is its a scam! I think Tillman was a
> hero, yes he was, he died while serving in the military
> under combat, so he IS a hero. But he deserves no more
> attaention than does the guy who singed on for college
> credits and left behind a
family
> of four. Its the same twisted mentality that a STAR gets
> preffered treatment. Look at Michael Jackson, Money buys
> a lot. anoy other person would be sitting in jail
> awaiting trial.
>
> America still has not learned a thing. I mean, its all back
> to normal for everyone isnt it? Nobody can accept the basic
> facts that the planet is fucked, held together by ozone
> rotted rubber bands, and is going to
implode
> soon. So we all still wear rose colored glasses and think
> its OK. We would rather spend money on a SUV, Diet Foods,
> Worry about how fat we are, and
who
> is the big TV glamour queen for the week! Jlow--I mean there
> alone is
reason
> enough to vomit. TV is obsessed by reporting on this sluts
> activities like its just SO important for us to know.
>
> Major priority mixup. We should be prepping to live through
> the shitstorm that is coming. Blind mice dont get very far.
>
> Melnick

absolutely right - the planet is fucked. when a Moslem
zealot potentially can unleash bioterror and kill tens of
thousands in New York and we are virtually defenseless. When
even 2.5 years after the trade towers we still have 95% of
containers coming into the country not checked. (and our
leaders consistently say "we are doing everything in our
power to protect our country") When the two biggest
industries in the world are armaments and drugs. We ought to
be very proud of ourselves

[John Hudso]

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 14:23:54 GMT, "David"
<forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>
>"Mr.Melnick" <Mel@Nick.Comet> wrote in message
>news:Phrjc.3955$Qy.34@fed1read04...
>> So Tillman walked away from Big Money, Fame, and Pussy?
>> That IS what you said is the reason he deserves so much
>> attention! Simple point is its a scam! I think Tillman was
>> a hero, yes he was, he died while serving in the military
>> under combat, so he IS a hero. But he deserves no more
>> attaention than does the guy who singed on for college
>> credits and left behind a
>family
>> of four. Its the same twisted mentality that a STAR gets
>> preffered treatment. Look at Michael Jackson, Money buys
>> a lot. anoy other person would be sitting in jail
>> awaiting trial.
>>
>> America still has not learned a thing. I mean, its all back
>> to normal for everyone isnt it? Nobody can accept the basic
>> facts that the planet is fucked, held together by ozone
>> rotted rubber bands, and is going to
>implode
>> soon. So we all still wear rose colored glasses and think
>> its OK. We would rather spend money on a SUV, Diet Foods,
>> Worry about how fat we are, and
>who
>> is the big TV glamour queen for the week! Jlow--I mean
>> there alone is
>reason
>> enough to vomit. TV is obsessed by reporting on this sluts
>> activities like its just SO important for us to know.
>>
>> Major priority mixup. We should be prepping to live through
>> the shitstorm that is coming. Blind mice dont get very far.
>>
>> Melnick
>
>absolutely right - the planet is fucked. when a Moslem zealot
>potentially can unleash bioterror and kill tens of thousands
>in New York and we are virtually defenseless. When even 2.5
>years after the trade towers we still have 95% of containers
>coming into the country not checked. (and our leaders
>consistently say "we are doing everything in our power to
>protect our country") When the two biggest industries in the
>world are armaments and drugs. We ought to be very proud of
>ourselves
>

G'day Oz and welcome back; howthefakarya?

The group has been diminished in the absence of your pithy
contributions and your keen sense of humour!! ;o)

You have much on which to catch up.

[David]

"John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
news:tqhv80hflidv6kb4k3vphd4visevtpp4d5@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 14:23:54 GMT, "David"
> <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

[snip]
> >absolutely right - the planet is fucked. when a Moslem
> >zealot potentially can unleash bioterror and kill tens of
> >thousands in New York and we are virtually defenseless.
> >When even 2.5 years after the trade towers we
still
> >have 95% of containers coming into the country not checked.
> >(and our
leaders
> >consistently say "we are doing everything in our power to
> >protect our country") When the two biggest industries in
> >the world are armaments and drugs. We ought to be very
> >proud of ourselves
> >
>
> G'day Oz and welcome back; howthefakarya?
>
> The group has been diminished in the absence of your pithy
> contributions and your keen sense of humour!! ;o)
>
> You have much on which to catch up.

thanks! seems you've been fairly pithy yourself lately!

[John Hudso]

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 15:28:59 GMT, "David"
<forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>
>"John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
>news:tqhv80hflidv6kb4k3vphd4visevtpp4d5@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 14:23:54 GMT, "David"
>> <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>> >absolutely right - the planet is fucked. when a Moslem
>> >zealot potentially can unleash bioterror and kill tens of
>> >thousands in New York and we are virtually defenseless.
>> >When even 2.5 years after the trade towers we
>still
>> >have 95% of containers coming into the country not
>> >checked. (and our
>leaders
>> >consistently say "we are doing everything in our power to
>> >protect our country") When the two biggest industries in
>> >the world are armaments and drugs. We ought to be very
>> >proud of ourselves
>> >
>>
>> G'day Oz and welcome back; howthefakarya?
>>
>> The group has been diminished in the absence of your pithy
>> contributions and your keen sense of humour!! ;o)
>>
>> You have much on which to catch up.
>
>thanks! seems you've been fairly pithy yourself lately!
>

You're not taking the pith are you David? ;o)

You had a successful trip I hope!

[David]

"John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
news:cmjv80lejfol9bg4v6g61bsge1ude3s2mp@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 15:28:59 GMT, "David"
> <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> >
> >"John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
> >news:tqhv80hflidv6kb4k3vphd4visevtpp4d5@4ax.com...
> >> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 14:23:54 GMT, "David"
> >> <forgotwhy@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >
> >[snip]
> >> >absolutely right - the planet is fucked. when a Moslem
> >> >zealot
potentially
> >> >can unleash bioterror and kill tens of thousands in New
> >> >York and we
are
> >> >virtually defenseless. When even 2.5 years after the
> >> >trade towers we
> >still
> >> >have 95% of containers coming into the country not
> >> >checked. (and our
> >leaders
> >> >consistently say "we are doing everything in our power
> >> >to protect our country") When the two biggest industries
> >> >in the world are armaments
and
> >> >drugs. We ought to be very proud of ourselves
> >> >
> >>
> >> G'day Oz and welcome back; howthefakarya?
> >>
> >> The group has been diminished in the absence of your
> >> pithy contributions and your keen sense of humour!! ;o)
> >>
> >> You have much on which to catch up.
> >
> >thanks! seems you've been fairly pithy yourself lately!
> >
>
> You're not taking the pith are you David? ;o)
>
> You had a successful trip I hope!

Ha! Yes good trip thanks - been away so long the dog bit me!

[Axel Of Th]

On Tue, 04 May 2004 06:54:48 GMT, Lucas Buck
<lefty@dodgerssuck.NOSPAM.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 04 May 2004 05:54:04 GMT, axel111@ypo.net (Axel of
>the North!) wrote:
>
>>Let's not forget the 370+ tons of DU* during the first Gulf
>>War and 170+ tons of DU during this war (numbers from the
>>article in the Rolling Stones article (the one with Britney
>>Spears on the cover)). Whatever the actual numbers, that's a
>>hell of a lot of radioactive metal vaporizing in Iraq, and
>>the babies in that region... holy shit. I mean, holy
>>radioactive fetuses, Batman, that's a helluva lot of
>>radioactive waste.
>>
>>*depleted uranium, typically 40% the radioactivity of
>>reactor-grade uranium
>
>says who?

article in Rolling Stones, Oct. 2nd 2003, by Hillary Johnson

(page 76)

"Military scientists became intrigued by depleted uranium in
the 1940s, at the very advent of the nuclear age. But it
wasn't until the 1960s that American weapons designers began
inventing ways to use DU in battle. Depleted uranium is what
remains after "enriched" uranium, a crucial component in
nuclear bombs and reactors, is processed from uranium ore.
Although its radioactive properties have diminished by forty
percent, it's hardly safe."

>
>>I don't care what advantage these radioactive munitions give
>>our tank divisions,
>
>They aren't meaningfully "radioactive", dipshit. That's not
>why they are used. DU rounds are used because they are DENSE
>and make excellent anti-armor projectiles.

And did I say that they weren't used for their physical
properties? Did I say those crispy critters died because of
radiation poisening? Who's the dipshit? You have already
betrayed your level of comprehension, the people in power love
your kind of mind.

Well, supposedly a "broad consortium of scientists,
environmentalists and human-rights activists -- as well as
thousands of U.S. soldiers who served in the Gulf in 1991 --
cite mounting evidence that depleted uranium will cause death
and suffering among civilians and solider alike long after the
war's end."

page 75 of the same stupid article that couldn't possibly have
any resemblance to reality, because what the military and the
industries that depend on it, and the rest of the government
are all so honest and trustworthy, right?

You can wave away those wacky environmentalists (what do THEY
know, anyway?) and the activists (heh!, pansies!) but the
scientists.. eh... maybe some of them are honest, and,
therefore, honestly concerned?

>
>Duh.
>
>>... Let's stick to reality.
>
>Indeed, let's.
>

Oh, yes! Very good, sir! Do let's stick to reality.

POS

"No is for wimps. No is for pussies. No is to live small and
embittered, cherishing the opportunities you missed because
they might have sent the wrong message." -Dave Eggers

[Axel Of Th]

On 04 May 2004 10:24:01 +0200, Fun@while.it.lasted.invalid
(Asbjørn Bjørnstad) wrote:

>Lucas Buck <lefty@dodgerssuck.NOSPAM.com> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 04 May 2004 05:54:04 GMT, axel111@ypo.net (Axel of
>> the North!) wrote:
>>
>> >Let's not forget the 370+ tons of DU* during the first
>> >Gulf War and 170+ tons of DU during this war (numbers from
>> >the article in the Rolling Stones article (the one with
>> >Britney Spears on the cover)).
>
>The Rolling Stones journal of science, eh?

I know enough about this world not to trust the
military-industrial comlex, or the U.S. government. Effective
weapons are more important than morality, obviously.

>
>> >Whatever the actual numbers, that's a hell of a lot of
>> >radioactive metal vaporizing in Iraq, and the babies in
>> >that region... holy shit. I mean, holy radioactive
>> >fetuses, Batman, that's a helluva lot of radioactive
>> >waste.
>> >
>> >*depleted uranium, typically 40% the radioactivity of
>> >reactor-grade uranium
>>
>> says who?
>
>Looks like a misunderstanding. It is 40% of naturally
>occuring uranium. Reactor grade is enriched, and is more than
>6 times as radiactive as DU.
>
>> >I don't care what advantage these radioactive munitions
>> >give our tank divisions,
>>
>> They aren't meaningfully "radioactive", dipshit. That's not
>> why they are used. DU rounds are used because they are
>> DENSE and make excellent anti-armor projectiles.
>
>Yup, depleted as in "whats left after we remove most of the
>radiactive elements". Add to that that DU emits alpha
>particles, which is stopped by glass/paper/cloting and skin.
>(In other words, don't eat it, it's toxic btw.)
>
>I know UN is unpopular over there, but here is what WHO has
>to say: "A recent United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP)
>report giving field measurements contamination around
>selected impact sites in Kosovo indicates that contamination
>by DU in the environment was localized to a few tens of
>metres around impact sites. Contamination by DU dusts of
>local vegetation and water supplies was found to be extremely
>low. Thus, the probability of significant exposure to local
>populations was considered to be very low."
>
>--
> -asbjxrn

But that isn't Iraq. We should stay on topic.

[Proton Sou]

On 08 May 2004 05:37:56 +0200, Fun@while.it.lasted.invalid
(Asbjørn Bjørnstad) wrote:

>axel111@ypo.net (Axel of the North!) writes:
>
>> But that isn't Iraq. We should stay on topic.
>
>Your topic was that the US dumped tons of dangerous
>radioactive material in Iraq. So the danger of those
>materials is on topic although it is off topic for this
>group. Unless you use them to make dumbells or something.
>That would be rather depressing I guess, as they would look
>so small.

No, less bulky dumbells would be perfect. Sign me up for a
set.

-----------
Proton Soup

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace
alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an
endless series of hobgoblins."
- - H.L. Mencken

[John M . W]

axel111@ypo.net (Axel of the North!) wrote:
> Fun@while.it.lasted.invalid (Asbjørn Bjørnstad) wrote:
>>Lucas Buck <lefty@dodgerssuck.NOSPAM.com> writes:
>>> axel111@ypo.net (Axel of the North!) wrote:
>>>
>>> >Let's not forget the 370+ tons of DU* during the first
>>> >Gulf War and 170+ tons of DU during this war (numbers
>>> >from the article in the Rolling Stones article (the one
>>> >with Britney Spears on the cover)).
>>
>>The Rolling Stones journal of science, eh?
>
>I know enough about this world not to trust the
>military-industrial comlex, or the U.S. government. Effective
>weapons are more important than morality, obviously.
>
>>
>>> >Whatever the actual numbers, that's a hell of a lot of
>>> >radioactive metal vaporizing in Iraq, and the babies in
>>> >that region... holy shit. I mean, holy radioactive
>>> >fetuses, Batman, that's a helluva lot of radioactive
>>> >waste.
>>> >
>>> >*depleted uranium, typically 40% the radioactivity of
>>> >reactor-grade uranium
>>>
>>> says who?
>>
>>Looks like a misunderstanding. It is 40% of naturally
>>occuring uranium. Reactor grade is enriched, and is more
>>than 6 times as radiactive as DU.
>>
>>> >I don't care what advantage these radioactive munitions
>>> >give our tank divisions,
>>>
>>> They aren't meaningfully "radioactive", dipshit. That's
>>> not why they are used. DU rounds are used because they are
>>> DENSE and make excellent anti-armor projectiles.
>>
>>Yup, depleted as in "whats left after we remove most of the
>>radiactive elements". Add to that that DU emits alpha
>>particles, which is stopped by glass/paper/cloting and skin.
>>(In other words, don't eat it, it's toxic btw.)
>>
>>I know UN is unpopular over there, but here is what WHO has
>>to say: "A recent United Nations Environment Programme
>>(UNEP) report giving field measurements contamination around
>>selected impact sites in Kosovo indicates that contamination
>>by DU in the environment was localized to a few tens of
>>metres around impact sites. Contamination by DU dusts of
>>local vegetation and water supplies was found to be
>>extremely low. Thus, the probability of significant exposure
>>to local populations was considered to be very low."
>
>But that isn't Iraq. We should stay on topic.

Ah. So you have surveying Iraqi battle sites with a
Geiger counter?

Please share your findings.

[AsbjøRn Bj]

axel111@ypo.net (Axel of the North!) writes:

> But that isn't Iraq. We should stay on topic.

Your topic was that the US dumped tons of dangerous
radioactive material in Iraq. So the danger of those materials
is on topic although it is off topic for this group. Unless
you use them to make dumbells or something. That would be
rather depressing I guess, as they would look so small.
--
-asbjxrn