Problems with Atkins WOE?

[kyrie]

I was wondering if some of the folks who think the Atkins diet is bad would maybe list a few of their talking points for me. It's difficult to wade through the old posts, especially when the original posters are long gone, but I want a well-rounded view of it.

I understand the vegetarian "meat is murder" argument-- I was vegetarian for the last 5 years. It's an emotional issue, and one very similar to religion, so it's not something I'm going to debate with someone.

I'd really like to hear the main points about health problems. I was suspicious of the diet for a long time, but after some research, I really believe that this eating plan is in fact good for the heart and other organs.

I'd really like to know what are the most valid arguments that I'm mistaken. Thanks!!!

[tofi]

Thus far, all the "objections" to the Atkins way of eating have found no proof for them. In fact, any study that hoped to prove Atkins WOE was harmful to health or didn't work, have had to back down and admit they were wrong.

Now the main problem I have with it, is that detractors and critics characterize Atkins WOE as "no carbs, all meat and fat" and "unknown effects over time".

As we ALL know, properly done by the book, Atkins starts at 20 grams of carbs daily for ONLY 2 weeks, and then progresses upwards.

And Atkins had followed patients for over 30 years in his New York practice, as well as "doing Atkins" for all that time. And never a case of kidney or liver failure in his tens of thousands of patients.

[MyJourney]

The Atkins plan isnt anti vegetarian. You can in fact be a vegetarian and follow the Atkins plan. Being a vegan, Atkins says might be too restrictive but it isnt some sort of competition.

The only vegan groups that some of us have issues with on this forum are the radical extremist groups like peta and pcrm.

I am not sure what you are trying to figure out here as far as health problems? You want to know what health problems people developed on the plan? You want to know how its beneficial for you? Have you read the book? If not I suggest starting there and reading www.atkins.com.

As for my personal health... My overall cholestertol went down dramatically. My triglycerides went down over 200 points (They were super high even when I was 125 lbs). Ive dropped close to 80 lbs. My energy levels have soared. My kidneys are fine, my gallbladder is actually working, my liver is super, my pancreas is grateful, my bones are stronger, my brain still functions, my head is clearer, my lean muscle mass is reamining high while my fat is leaving, I am finally able to ovulate on my own regularly without meds and my PCOS symptoms are being controlled by diet alone, my skin hair and nails have never looked better, I no longer have mood swings and I am happier overall.

I have never been healthier and more energized in my life!

[Angeline]

In the "Studies and Research / Media Watch" thread, while naturally bias towards low-carb, we remain open-minded. After 30 years of low-fat junk science shoved down our throat, we have learned to be skeptical of what so called experts say. Experts who have a large stake in maintaining the status quo. We post everything diet-related that is published in the media, be it positive or negative. We, unlike a lot of parties with vested interest in the low-fat dogma, do not suppress information. If there was any valid studies that clearly showed a problem with low-carb, we would know of it. Right now the whole low-fat community are watching like vultures, ready to pounce on the slightest sign that they haven't been wrong for the past 30 years. Low-carb is their own private Satan. So far they haven't managed to find anything concrete in the way of evidence. It's all supposition and theories not backed up by any facts.

So, this, more than anything else, tells me that low-carb is safe.

But the most convincing fact, in my mind, is that low-carb has been a natural way of eating for most of man's evolution. Grains and rice are a relatively new, in terms of evolution. And they can't even be eaten raw, which is another indication it's not a "natural" food for humans. Processed food is obviously very very new, and we are just starting to see how damaging it is for us.

The only valid criticism of Atkins that I have seen as of yet, is that occasionally it will cause a series of "withdrawal" symptoms as you wean yourself off the carbs.

[mem2]

Is not constipation and vitamin deficiency a problem? On Atkins I am under the impression that we must take our vitimans and also minerals if we don't want muscle cramps, and of course supplemental fiber for the constipation.

[adkpam]

I must say I didn't take a multivitamin or supplemental fiber.

I had no regularity problems at all, but then I was eating lots of vegetables!

I do take CLA, an oil supplement. When I entered a month's eating into Fitday, I was near or over 100% in all vitamins and minerals, except for Vitamin D, which I've addressed by adding yogurt to my diet.

I don't think my previous eating would have come off so well! For instance, I used to struggle to get enough calcium, and on Atkins I hit 100%.

My mom's cholesterol went down 67 points, my blood pressure became optimum.

I don't think there are any health risks with Atkins. Characterizing it as a no-vegetable way of eating is completely off base. Most people here maintain that they have never eating so many different vegetables, and I know I'm eating more leafy greens than ever before.

A sore point with me is the way Atkins get criticized as "well, we can't find any short-term health problems, but we don't know of any long term effects, blah blah blah." In the meantime, the medical establishment supports bariatric surgery, which has definite long and short term health problems!

And in a country with epidemic diabetes, dissing the Atkins approach is extremely irresponsible.

[MyJourney]

I have never taken a fiber supplement and have had no problems being regular. I do eat plenty of veggies! I take a multivitamin and cod liver and borage oil when I remember to, but have gone for months without and have no cramps. I meet close to 100% of my daily vitamins and minerals without it.

Think about it? What is so important that you get from grains and what of that cant you get from better, unenriched sources?

The major nutrients we normally receive from grains are thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, folic acid (synthetic folate) and iron.

Grains are actually enriched with these nutrients.

Good sources of Thiamin in their unenriched form are ham, pork, nuts and seeds, bacon, liver, oysters, spinach, collared greens, asparagus, cauliflower, brussels sprouts, beef and chicken.

Good sources of Riboflavin include eggs, dairy, leafy greens and nuts.

You can get niacin from chicken, meats, tuna, fish and ham.

Folate is found mostly in leafy greens. Broccoli and spinach are excellent sources as well.

The best source of iron is found in red meat. Its in the form of heme-iron and very well absorbed... much better than the iron found in grains or in greens and dried fruits and nuts. If you are eating red meat you are set on iron.

I would be far more concerned about a vitamin deficiency when eating a diet high in refined carbs.

[mem2]

Everyone is different. Before Atkins, my intake was very heavy on vegetables. I built my meal around a large salad. That is not what brought on the weight, though. When I got on Atkins and went heavy on the cheese, soy protiens and fats, and limited my veggies and fruit, the constipation became a problem. I felt very restricted by having to limit my servings of vegetables to 1/2 cup. One size does not fit all.

[Nancy LC]

Is not constipation and vitamin deficiency a problem? On Atkins I am under the impression that we must take our vitimans and also minerals if we don't want muscle cramps, and of course supplemental fiber for the constipation.

On any diet those are problems. You're generally limiting your food and calories so you don't always hit the RDA. In fact, I'd be willing to bet most "standard" diets are deficient, or would be if people weren't eating things with vitamins added to them. I take a few supplements on nutrients I'm low on.

I have been constipated on just about EVERY diet I've been on, low carb, low fat, low calorie. The problem is you just have a lot less bulk to pass and it tends to hang out and get hard.

The solution is to get added fiber in the diet. Which is easy to do.

[MyJourney]

I felt very restricted by having to limit my servings of vegetables to 1/2 cup. One size does not fit all.

Why do you limit your veggies to half a cup?

I eat over 12 cups of veggies some days. I deduct the fiber, and as long as I am 20 carbs I am fine, I also dont eat a lot of cheese. Atkins said 3 cups a day or more. If you arent hitting the 20 carbs, or whatever carb level you are at daily, why not add more veggies?

[kyrie]

Thanks for all the feedback! I've read the book and have been on induction myself for 3 weeks, and feel great. I'm just looking for the main talking points in the debate, so I can be well-versed in defending my chosen way of eating.

[Lisa N]

Is not constipation and vitamin deficiency a problem? On Atkins I am under the impression that we must take our vitimans and also minerals if we don't want muscle cramps, and of course supplemental fiber for the constipation.

That may be true for the first few weeks of induction as the body goes through carb withdrawal and adjusts to the difference in diet, but vitamin deficiency has never been a problem for me with all the veggies I eat, nor has constipation.
As others have pointed out, changing the way you eat drastically can result in constipation or, I might add, diarrhea until the body readjusts. Such symptoms are usually only temporary...a few weeks at most.
The muscle cramps or aching is also something that may occur during the first few weeks when weight loss is rapid and/or you are urinating a lot; calcium, magnesium and potassium are all water-soluble vitamins and you tend to lose more of them when you are urinating frequently than when you are not. Again, though, the body usually readjusts within a few weeks making supplementation unnecessary for most after that point.
Having said all that, taking a daily multi-purpose vitamin isn't a bad idea for anyone. I'd be willing to bet that most people, even those following the standard food pyramid, don't get the minimum RDA of a lot of things, especially if their diets are high in starches and low in brightly colored veggies and fruits. The fruits and veggies allowed even on induction are some of the most nutrient-dense veggies there are, while grains and starches are generally nutrient-poor, so most people who switch to low carb and trading nutrient-poor foods for nutrient-dense ones and calorie for calorie (or carb for carb) are getting better nutrition than they were before. ;)

[Monika4]

OK - Kyrie, you asked to hear some criticism, and are getting why the critics are wrong. So although I am not anti-Atkins, let me try - it seems none of the real anti-Atkins warriars are around.

I tried Atkins twice and switched to South Beach. Why? I am obviously still committed to low carb in the sense that I agree that refined "wonderbread" and sugar and not fat made the majority of us fat!

I did feel that two cups of veggies was not enough, and I did have problems with constipation on Atkins. I realized that this would have to become a way of life if I am not willing to risk yoyo dieting forever. I did not like counting carbs, which meant weighing everything I eat - since I often don't eat at home, that was practically difficult. I could not imagine what was so harmful to most fruits, so the idea of damning apples from my diet wasn't appealing either.

Atkins also clearly recommends a whole bunch of supplements. I am in favor of keeping things natural, so not needing various oil and vitamin supplements sounded more appealing. In contrast, when I read: don't try low fat, don't trim the fatty parts of the meat away, that was just not appetizing to me. I don't eat pork, so the whole bacon etc. didn't appeal at all. I know many on Atkins here supplement with extra fat - didn't feel right for me.

Last, it is pretty clear that when in ketosis, you are extremely, sometimes dangerously (e.g. if going out in company and you have to drive home later), sensitive to alcohol. There is a whole thread on it. I have experienced that too. Even on South Beach, I was in ketosis in phase 1, I am pretty sure. I simply like my occasional (LC) beer and glass of wine, and didn't feel well with that. Again, since I didn't want to be in a diet mode but in a switch way of eating mode, a diet that didn't allow alcohol wasn't going to work long term for me. I also felt not well in ketosis - although I have read enough that I trust it would have gone better later on.

SO, mostly, it is more a personal choice - what can I imagine to do most of my life?

In addition, regarding health, there are several on the South Beach Forum who switched from Atkins to South Beach because their cholesterol and other fat blood values were skyrocketing and their physicians said: don't continue - don't risk it. Not me - I am just fine thank you on whatever I ate. While I am aware of some studies that show blood values improving on Atkins even more than on low fat diets, everyone is different, and there are enough people in the South Beach forum who complained about bad cholesterol values etc. that I think there may be some truth that for SOME people on a high fat diet like Atkins is so healthy.

So, hopefully this is a moderate criticism you wanted to hear.

[kyrie]

Monika-- thanks!

I intend to get a full blood screen once I've been on atkins for 6 weeks, the recommended time.

Also, it's three cups of veggies, not two! ;) I've seen a lot of people who treat that as a minimum, as long as carbs stay below 20.

I know that the company sells vitamins, but didn't Dr. A insist that you can get what you need from fresh food? I'm going to input the recommended one week induction menu into fitday to see how the nutrition anlysis works out.

As for alcohol-- I don't drink much anyways, so I'm ok waiting until a later stage for my low-carb bourbon.

Thanks so much!!!

[Nancy LC]

I gotta correct some of these errors with your Atkins perception, Monika. :) I hope you don't mind a friendly rebuttal.


I did feel that two cups of veggies was not enough, and I did have problems with constipation on Atkins. I realized that this would have to become a way of life if I am not willing to risk yoyo dieting forever. I did not like counting carbs, which meant weighing everything I eat - since I often don't eat at home, that was practically difficult. I could not imagine what was so harmful to most fruits, so the idea of damning apples from my diet wasn't appealing either.


That phase of Atkins is supposed to last for 2 weeks. After that, you can add a LOT more low carb veggies and even things like nuts and berries. In fact, you can add back in all low glycemic food until you find a level of carb intake where you quit losing weight, or start to get cravings.

For some reason, that is the biggest misconception about Atkins. I typically have 4-5 cups of spinach/salad greens when I eat a salad. I eat tons of broccolli, asparagus, brussel sprouts and so on. Sometimes my meals don't even have meat. They'll be an enormous salad. In fact, it'd be awfully hard for vegetarians to do Atkins if your two cups of veggie claim were actually true. And yes, there are vegetarians active on this MB doing Atkins.


Atkins also clearly recommends a whole bunch of supplements. I am in favor of keeping things natural, so not needing various oil and vitamin supplements sounded more appealing. In contrast, when I read: don't try low fat, don't trim the fatty parts of the meat away, that was just not appetizing to me. I don't eat pork, so the whole bacon etc. didn't appeal at all. I know many on Atkins here supplement with extra fat - didn't feel right for me.


Well, the big departure between Atkins and SBD is that Atkins doesn't believe there is anything wrong with fats, even saturated fats. From the research I'm reading about fat and heart disease, I tend to agree. However, I think SBD is smart to promote eating of the good fats.

As far as supplements, I follow my instincts on them. I suspect they are probably a good source of income for any diet doctor who sells his own line. So I plug what I eat into fitday and supplement those vitamins that I'm low on. There's really no proof that taking supplements is useful or even safe. So I am skeptical about it.

Fiber is another thing people complain about. There's absolutely no reason you can't consume enough fiber on Atkins. I use low carb cereals that have tons of fiber. In fact, even things like low carb milk and ice cream have fiber in them. And, there's always the stuff like psyssilium husks.

Last, it is pretty clear that when in ketosis, you are extremely, sometimes dangerously (e.g. if going out in company and you have to drive home later), sensitive to alcohol.

I just found I don't have to drink as much to get a buzz. So whereas it might have been 2 beers got me happy, now 1 does. I'm a cheaper date. :p But I don't drink often anyway. Its just something to keep in mind when you go out.

I also felt not well in ketosis - although I have read enough that I trust it would have gone better later on.

That's typical of any low carb diet for the first couple of weeks. I don't know if it is ketosis or just your system going through carb withdrawls. I remember hearing CAD dieters complaining of it also.

Anyway, I find the entire cholesterol heart disease theory is losing credibility as time goes on. New research is showing that our heart disease problem in this country is probably more related to insulin than cholesterol and even the SBD diet doc is saying he thinks dietary fat makes little difference in heart disease. And both diets do lower your insulin levels which is probably the most crucial health and life extending thing you can do with your diet.

So, in the end, my body loves Atkins and not getting hungry and losing weight and eating good foods, including probably at least as many veggies as you do.

[Lisa N]

I did feel that two cups of veggies was not enough,

Not to be picky, but even on induction you are supposed to have 3 cups of veggies per day; more if you are not also eating the allowed portions of avocado and olives or the cheese, cream or lemon juice also allowed on induction. If you don't eat those things, you will find that it's quite possible to consume quite a bit more veggies and still not go over your 20 grams of carb per day maximum even on induction. ;)

[black57]

This is my argument. There are many ways to eat low carb-Atkins is actually 4 low carb diets in one. There of course are South Beach and Protein Power ( I wish PP got more press ). Everyone who diets should diet intelligently. Read the facts, not superstitions and do this diet in the way that it supports their own health. I love telling the history of Native Americans, who lived for centuries on little or no carbs. This low carb diet was more extreme than the induction phase. This culture had been a very healthy group of human beings. They had an exemplary bone structure, they were muscular and had a superlative immune system. Their health, as a whole, deteriorated when they reduced their meat intake and increased their carb intake.

To me those facts support the long term benefits of a low carb diet, regardless of what the "experts" say.

[Hellistile]

I agree with Black57. Hunter-gatherer societies and not just the ones in North America, ate mostly meat/fish and highly prized whatever fat was available. They did not suffer from fat-phobia as we do. Carbohydrates were not considered necessary and were consumed in very limited quantities. Without nutritional vitamin and mineral supplements, these people were the healthiest on the planet, well into the 20th century until they started eating like us, so to speak, a balanced, low-fat, high carbohydrate diet.They became obese and, in the case of north-american aboriginals, 70-80% of them developed diabetes. Wouldn't statistics such as these ring some bells somewhere in the medical establishment? Apparently not.

[adkpam]

I've found people's objections break into these categories:

"But I've always eaten bread/pasta/cookies/candy!"
This is mostly a defect of imagination. There's a phenomenon in kittens that results in cats having the reputation of having finicky appetites. Kittens have a narrow window, from 6-12 weeks or something like that, when they rely on Momma Kat (or who ever is substituting) to let them know what is good to eat. For many cats, that is it....if, as kittens, all they ate was Tiny Bits Ocean Whitefish in gravy, that is literally all they will eat.
People who suffer from this syndrome tend to be very programmed eaters. Some foods are only for breakfast, some are Holy Snacks, there HAS to be bread along with dinner. They have always eaten this way, and they always will. Even if their waistlines show it.
Another problem is that people cannot imagine that there will be a time when they DON'T want any pasta, or bread, or candy. I know I was skeptical too. But one's taste buds really do change. So it does not become a diet of deprivation. It becomes a way of eating that is actually delightful! Just as Dr. Atkins promised.

"We are SUPPOSED to eat sugar and starches. I know professional atheletes who eat this way!"
Pro atheletes, weight lifters, sprinters, even people with a committed workout schedule can all burn off the carbs. Most of the rest of us do not burn up all the carbs we ingest by following low fat/high carb eating.
Besides, if carbs are for energy, how come my old, high carb lunches used to practically put me to sleep every afternoon? Those sleepy people lying on the couch after Thanksgiving dinner aren't really trippy from the tryptophan, that's been disproven. They are actually in a Coma from Carbs.

"All that fat can't be good for you."
This is a favorite, because I can draw on my own experience. "They say fat is bad for you, right? And fat makes you fat, right? Then how could I have lost forty pounds by upping my fat intake to 125 grams a day?" Then I just smile and say, "Maybe that thinking is wrong."

"All that protein can't be good for you!"
Actually, considering the wild way my hair and nails are growing, that my face is much less fussy about breakouts and moisturizers, that I have much more energy and sleep better, I believe I wasn't eating ENOUGH protein before!
There are medical symptoms of eating too much protein and not enough fat. I think that's why most low carb plans encourage fat. But there isn't any evidence that low carb plans, the way most people eat them, do anything but optimize cholesterol, eliminate or reduce diabetes medication, optimize blood pressure, promote faster healing, clear up digestive problems, eliminate or reduce allergies and sleep disorders, and alleviate many roller-coaster mood disorders (just to quote from the experiences of people I know).
After all that, the weight loss almost looks like a bonus.

[kyrie]

I've been talking to some folks at an anti-Atkins forum, and they really seem stuck on the fact that several medical associations (American Heart Association, American Kidney Fund, etc.) have issued statements warning people of risks in eating low-carb.

The thing is, I read these statements. The AHA doesn't want us to eat too much saturated fat, but I eat less saturated fat than folks do on the typical American diet. I'm going to get my lipid profile checked soon, but indications are such that it's going to be pretty good. Saturated fat in the typical American diet may have a corrleation to high LDLs, but Atkins has been known to lower LDLs, so it's all good.

The AKF is concerned that too much protein leads to dehydration risks. Well, my protein intake is less than what the AKF says is dangerous, plus I drink tons of water.


Speaking of water, what do people mean when they say that weight loss is really just water loss? I know that stress on your body (beginning a diet) can have a diuretic effect, but that water loss can only be attributed to the first week or so. I really can't believe that folks who have lost in the three digits were simply retaining too much water!!!! ;)

[kaeleen]

I have trouble with that LC weight loss is water loss theory as well. Surely for most people, beyond that first, oh, 10 lbs or so maximum, surely that can't be true. Especially when there is a lot of water being consumed to make up for it, which all LCers who are knowledgeable make a practice of.

My personal criticsim of Atkins is that when my carbs get too low I suffer from sleep disturbance and constipation. And that is with consuming a lot of vegetables. I suppose there are supplements which would help this but I like to follow Hippocrates dictum, "Let food be your medicine and medicine be your food." Actually on SB I think my food is probably very close to Atkins OWL.

That is another thing I've noticed on these boards. I don't see as many people progressing to Atkins OWL as those sticking with induction levels for longer than the first 2 weeks. I know Dr. Atkins said in the book this is necessary for some to maintain weight loss, I just hadn't expected so many. I guess it's one of those YMMV things. But I think that's where a lot of Atkins bad rep for being all meat, eggs and cheese comes from.

I've developed an additional concern seeing all the Atkins and other LC labelled products crowding the store shelves these days. It's gone far beyond what what Dr. Atkins intended as LC substitutes for occasional treats. I'm afraid too many people will see the LC label and think they can stuff themselves just like happened with LF products like Snackwell's and such.
Then the "experts" will be saying , "SEE, we said Low Carb didn't work!"

IMHO, Atkins and other LC plans are healthy as long as you stick to the REAL foods and pay attention to your body's signals. The YMMV factor is often significant and most people find some tweaking helps clear up any problems.

[Lisa N]

Saturated fat in the typical American diet may have a corrleation to high LDLs, but Atkins has been known to lower LDLs, so it's all good.

Saturated fat raises both HDL and LDL, so it comes out about even. What lowers HDL is vegetable oils and tranfats have a horrible impact on cardiac profiles. Even so, I saw the recommendation on the AHA website not that long ago to substitute margarine for butter. :rolleyes:

I've been talking to some folks at an anti-Atkins forum, and they really seem stuck on the fact that several medical associations (American Heart Association, American Kidney Fund, etc.) have issued statements warning people of risks in eating low-carb.

I know a lot of people get hung up on this, but they have to realize that these are associations. They issue opinions and positions, but do very little research of their own. They are, in fact, basing their opinions in this case on old and now known to be inaccurate studies which are based on high carb AND high fat, not fat in a diet that is restricted in carbs.
I do find myself wondering what these people think of the studies that have been done so far on low carb, some of them by scientists who set out to prove that low carb is harmful, that have shown more improvement in cardiac profiles than the standard AHA diet.

Speaking of water, what do people mean when they say that weight loss is really just water loss? I know that stress on your body (beginning a diet) can have a diuretic effect, but that water loss can only be attributed to the first week or so.

That's exactly it. The first few pounds on any diet are generally water, but on low carb the loss of weight after that is more fat and less muscle than those low calorie, low fat diets that are also generally deficient in protein. Unless you have other very serious medical issues going on, nobody is walking around carrying 50+ lbs. of excess water weight and if they were carrying around that much water retention, they wouldn't be walking around...they'd be in the hospital on some serious diuretics! :rolleyes:

The AKF is concerned that too much protein leads to dehydration risks. Well, my protein intake is less than what the AKF says is dangerous, plus I drink tons of water.

If that were true, then body-builders, who consume huge quantities of protein, would all be keeling over from kidney disease, dehydration and kidney failure. They're not. In fact, studies have been done on body builders looking for problems related to their high protein intake. None were found.

As for the anti-low carb group on the low carb board...challenge them. Ask them to post studies (not opinions, positions, etc..)...honest to goodness studies (preferably peer-reviewed) that show that what they are saying is indeed fact and not opinion. Caution them also that those studies have to involve subjects with a low carbohdyrate intake or they are not valid when discussing low carb. A fat burning metabolism is very different and has different effects on the body than a primarily glucose burning metabolism.

[upback]

"All that fat can't be good for you."
This is a favorite, because I can draw on my own experience. "They say fat is bad for you, right? And fat makes you fat, right? Then how could I have lost forty pounds by upping my fat intake to 125 grams a day?" Then I just smile and say, "Maybe that thinking is wrong."

I just started a new thread on Kiss vs Atkins, and I was asking this question: How come kiss limits your fats and recommends lean meats to loose? Please check out that thread, it also has the kiss website.

So why does kiss limit the fat to loose weight and Atkins ups the fat?

I am very confussed.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=178931

[Monika4]

I gotta correct some of these errors with your Atkins perception, Monika. :) I hope you don't mind a friendly rebuttal.

Thanks Nancy - I don't disagree on most points - the poster wanted to hear the arguments!

I do think that those claiming to do Atkins but staying on induction level - whether that is 2 cups or 3, it is still not enough for a WOL! - for months are part of the problem of why people think of it as being low on fiber and fruits and veggies. I had an exchange in our journals with another dieter - she says she is doing Atkins with low animal fat modifications, I say I am doing SBD with Atkins modifications (i.e. lower carb than SBD phase 2) and we are doing the same.

[Monika4]

One additional argument against Atkins and LC that I have often heard is:

All diets end up being the same, they work because they restrict what you can eat, and therefore you eat less. A calorie is a calorie, and Atkins restricts what you can eat enough that you end up eating less because it is boring.

That is an argument I hear a lot from nutrionists etc., and it is worth discussing. There are four arguments, at least, against it:

One: it is a difference whether you are hungry on a 1200 calorie diet or not. Atkins and other LC diets work in part because fat and protein don't leave you hungry as quickly, so even with the same amount of calories, you can be hungry or not. Obviously, LC dieting is popular because you don't feel hungry, in contrast to slim fast or many low fat diets.

Two: "starvation mode" : When your body is in starvation mode, it uses a calorie given much more efficiently than when the body feels normal. That is one major reason why several recent studies show that LCers eat more calories and still loose more weight. We are making our furnace less efficient!

Three: Insulin and glucose yoyo: you can read up elsewhere - I don't want to bring that whole physiology here again, why the yoyoing of glucose and insulin is bad and how LC maintains a balance of both.

Four: Ketones. You can get the details elsewhere but the bottom line is: If you pee out some of the calories as ketones, they don't count against you.

[Masaki]

Oh yeah, Monika4! There's also the metabolic advantage of LC diets! See this page (http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/11/19-211272.html) and the accompanying research or DANDR chapter 7. As far as carbs being necessary for exercise, see this page (http://atkins.com/helpatkins/newfaq/answers/AsARunnerIMUsedToCarbLoadingBeforeCompetitive.html) or DANDR chapter 22, page 293 "The Myth of Carb-Loading." If there is anything that convinced me of the Atkins WOE's true nature, it was the fact that it is completely free. Is eDiets.com free? If you go to the South Beach Diet website, can you see how to do it without paying to become a member? How about Slim Fast, Jenny Craig, or Weight Watchers? Atkins.com has many of the same articles as the book, almost word-for-word, as well as recipes, diet tools (also free, but you'd pay for them on eDiets and the like), rules, myths, data, research, and more importantly every last tiny detail about how to do Atkins and more! Only a man who didn't care about profiting, and only about the health of the people in the grip of the low-fat industry dogma, would make his diet available for free on the internet. I see others as trying to profit from LC, but of course Atkins Nutritionals was making LC foods back when nobody else was, as a service to dieters, not as a kickback as some contend. Some start with the belief that fat is bad, all carbs are good carbs and that Dr. Atkins must have been evil and stupid to have suggested his WOE, but the data contradicts those people, the changed lives of millions contradicts those people, and reality contradicts those people. I will be forever grateful for the good doctor's benevolence.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

P.S. You want to see heavy charges leveled against a LC WOE by the ignorant every day? Here they are!

Myths About Atkins (http://atkins.com/helpatkins/newfaq/categories/MythsAboutAtkins.html)

Fact vs. Fallacy Round 1 (http://atkins.com/Archive/2001/12/18-590441.html)

Fact vs. Fallacy Round 2 (http://atkins.com/Archive/2001/12/18-934442.html)

Fact vs. Fallacy Round 3 (http://atkins.com/Archive/2001/12/18-970957.html)

Fact vs. Fallacy Round 4 (http://atkins.com/Archive/2001/12/18-578467.html)

Fact vs. Fallacy Round 5 (http://atkins.com/Archive/2001/12/18-292461.html)

Here for all Five (http://atkins.com/why/debunking-the-myths.html)

And of course, search the site (http://www.atkins.com) for more.

[Itty]

Hi

Yeah, my biggest concern with Atkins is all those unnatural products coming out right now. Low fat "foods" are crap because they are chemicals and artificial sweeteners and salt, etc. Now Atkins and others are branding the same kind of crap in shakes, cookies, chips, bread, etc. It is disappointing to me... maybe it's because I can't digest them!!!!!

Too many people have leapt off the healthy, natural food bandwagon, and hopped on the processed, what-the-heck-is-propylene glycol mono fatty acid esters- anyway? bandwagon.

Mary

[poisinivy]

Two: "starvation mode" : When your body is in starvation mode, it uses a calorie given much more efficiently than when the body feels normal. That is one major reason why several recent studies show that LCers eat more calories and still loose more weight. We are making our furnace less efficient!


Okay - this statement really confused me. I had to read it at least 3 times for it to finally sink in. IMO I think the statement is a pure contradiction. "When in starvation mode our body uses a calorie more efficiently", of course, you gotta conserve when you're runnin low, it's called trying to save your *ss....but this is not a good thing. "LCers eat more calories and still loose more weight" that's because we are actually more efficient at using the calories we consume, 9gs of fat versus 4gs of carbs for the same amount of energy, and releasing what we don't need. But if you use up 9gs of fat for your energy versus 4 gs of carbs you have to consume a lot more calories to keep your body energized and running at optimum.......and that's why people lose so much weight on Atkins.

[westerner]

Yeah, my biggest concern with Atkins is all those unnatural products coming out right now. Low fat "foods" are crap because they are chemicals and artificial sweeteners and salt, etc. Now Atkins and others are branding the same kind of crap in shakes, cookies, chips, bread, etc. It is disappointing to me... maybe it's because I can't digest them!!!!!

Too many people have leapt off the healthy, natural food bandwagon, and hopped on the processed, what-the-heck-is-propylene glycol mono fatty acid esters- anyway? bandwagon.
Consumer Reports has an article in their May 2004 issue that discusses the explosion in LC junk food. Some of these LC cookies, ice cream, snacks etc. may have low carbs in them but are still basically empty calories.

One point where I think Atkins was right, was that just because a food is low fat (e.g. nonfat ice cream) doesn't mean it's good for you, because it contains a ton of processed carbs and sugar. Let's not repeat the same mistake again by eating junk just because it's marked "low carb".

I think any time you reduce a diet to a system where you're counting just one type of food (whether fat or carbs), somebody's going to come up with a low (fat or carbs) version of junk food and say look!!! our junk is healthy because it's lowfat lowcarbs lowwhatever... but you're still eating junk!

[Quinadal]

All this LC junk food should be used as an occasional treat or convenience, not as a mainstay of your WOE.
If I want cheesecake, I don't go out and buy a polyol ladden one from the store, that contains tons of chemicals! I make my own, with REAL cream cheese and sour cream and eggs. The only chemical in it is the liquid splenda, and I know exactly how much is in there.
More people need to learn to cook if they want LC treats and make their own. Homemade is much healthier and easier to fit into the WOE.

I realize that many people can't bake whenever they want something, though.
Of course, I was like this before Atkins, too. Never used mixes.

[scrapgirl]

All of this is very interesting. I think I read most of the thread and all I can say is wow. I have been LCing for a little over two months and I have been through many phases now. The beginning was tough...sort of felt like the flu. That was only a few days though and I stuck it out. I went through eating to many calories...but figured that out through reading on the forum. Went through eating too many LC products...figured that out through reading on the forum. Went through not working out...stalling out...having a treat weekend...I could go on and on. Through it all though I stuck with it and I am so thrilled. I feel good now! I get up at 4:30 most mornings to workout before waking the kids and going to work. I have energy to take walks in the evening if I have time. I dont CRAVE foods like I did before. Oh I still have struggles some times, but before food controlled a good bit of my life. I must have good metabolism because the way I ate, I should have weighed 300lbs. I listen to my sister say "when you switch to Weight Watchers" (which I did, liked, and have no problem with) and my mom say "but you need some carbs" (hello...I get 20-25 a day) and "you need some bread" (why...even when I do cheat, it isnt bread I go after and BTW...one day I will have SOME bread again...just not all the time!!) It gets frustrating at times! But I think about the way I am eating now...after all of my phases. I generally eat meat, dairy and veggies...turkey, ham, pork chops, steak, chicken breasts, cheese, sour cream, cream cheese, all kinds of salads and veggies, some nuts...no fruit yet, but I will soon. The only thing I personally feel I have cut out of my diet indefinatly is SUGAR. And even I know that some sneaks in here and there. I will have fruit again, I will have some breads again. READ THE BOOK PEOPLE!! For lunch I had a pork chop and brussel sprouts. How can that be bad!

[Quest]

An argument I've heard is "No diet that completely eliminates one food group is good." People think carbohydrates are a food group, and they define carbohydrates as bread, pasta, and potatoes. They don't know that vegetables are carbs and that Atkins OWL allows large amounts of veggies. They also think that "carbs" provide all the fiber in our diet.

Obviously, people on Atkins do eat carbs--the ones with vitamins and fiber!

[Lisa N]

An argument I've heard is "No diet that completely eliminates one food group is good." People think carbohydrates are a food group, and they define carbohydrates as bread, pasta, and potatoes.

Exactly! The only thing that low carbing eliminates from your diet on a more or less permanent basis is refined sugars and the last time I checked, those not a food group. :rolleyes:

[huggs2ewe]

All this LC junk food should be used as an occasional treat or convenience, not as a mainstay of your WOE.
If I want cheesecake, I don't go out and buy a polyol ladden one from the store, that contains tons of chemicals! I make my own, with REAL cream cheese and sour cream and eggs. The only chemical in it is the liquid splenda, and I know exactly how much is in there.
More people need to learn to cook if they want LC treats and make their own. Homemade is much healthier and easier to fit into the WOE.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
nothing like the real thing

No diet that completely eliminates one food group is good." People think carbohydrates are a food group, and they define carbohydrates as bread, pasta, and potatoes. They don't know that vegetables are carbs and that Atkins OWL allows large amounts of veggies. They also think that "carbs" provide all the fiber in our diet.
well said Quest and I totally agree.

at lunch today I ordered this awesome curry thai dish with chicken and shrimp, asked them to put it on a bed of lettuce instead of rice (this is a favorite restaurant of mine that has low carb food). The waitress looked at me like I was from outer space... I confirmed and then a little while latter she came back to confirm again as per the cook. When I was done I told her they should make it a known option because it was out of this world good! It was lc (may have had a bit of something sweet though) and way good for you!