logical answer to eating meat

[jeff45]

I have seen alot of threads about eating meat or being vegitarian, here is my respone to the debate . first the bible says god gave man dominion over the earth and apparently in is for thought he gave us canaine teeth so we could consume these things and flourish. second if we subcribe to the theroy of evolutiononce again the law of the jungle simply states the biggest strongest and smartest of the species survives, once again we developed canaine teeth to cut and tear meat for our consumption. its that simple we are equipted to consume meat as well as veggies if we were supose to eat only sugar and carbs are mouths ould look like a honey bees.

[black57]

I have seen alot of threads about eating meat or being vegitarian, here is my respone to the debate . first the bible says god gave man dominion over the earth and apparently in is for thought he gave us canaine teeth so we could consume these things and flourish. second if we subcribe to the theroy of evolutiononce again the law of the jungle simply states the biggest strongest and smartest of the species survives, once again we developed canaine teeth to cut and tear meat for our consumption. its that simple we are equipted to consume meat as well as veggies if we were supose to eat only sugar and carbs are mouths ould look like a honey bees.


Actually, God didn't permit man to eat meat until after the flood. :read2: Besides, we could eat meat without canines. Yes, the biggest and the strongest survives, in an evolutionary sense, but the elephant is bigger than you or I and they are vegetarians.

I am a carnivore but I just want to shoot some holes in your theory. Strengthen your debate. Scripturally, Adam and Eve were perfect humans with perfect health. They did not need meat. Even after they had sinned big time, they still had some of the benefits of perfection such as a very long life. This benefit lasted for quite some time. Noah lived to be in his 900s as a vegetarian. After the flood, man's physical weakness increased, hence there was a need to add meat to the menu :yay: That doesn't mean that vegetarianism is a poor dietary choice.

[jeff45]

you shot no holes I said survival of the species ( man) not elephants and god condemed man in the garden there health started to fail at that point when man became mortal

[Paleoanth]

Actually, the survival of the fittest has nothing to do with being the biggest or strongest at all. It has to do with mutation and adaptation in a particular environment. What is a good mutation in one environment could be disastrous in another. Environment is what drives the selection process.

Second, our canines are incisiform canines and not shaped like the canines you see in lots of other animals (i.e. lions, and gorillas). They are built to help with the cutting, not tearing of foods. Which does not contradict what you are saying-just wanted to let you know. However, gorillas do have huge canines and they are strict vegetarians-their canine size has more to do with their social structure then their diets. Most primates with huge canines have a harem social structure (baboons, mandrills, lemurs, gorillas...).

Gorillas have an extended gut in order to pull all the available nutrients out of plant materials. Something we cannot do. We don't digest cellulose (plant fiber) well at all. They are adapted to their folliverous environment.

Humans (and our direct ancestors) on the other hand are omniverous, dietary generalists and have been for at least 2 million years. Meat is a high quality food. You get more bang for your buck so to speak. More calories per gram than in plant foods. So, yes, we are evolutionarily adapted to a ominverious diet. So what? Darker skinned people are adapted to life near the equator, while lighter skinned people are adapted to more northern climates. Does that mean I shouldn't ever move closer to the equator? Modern humans more culturally adapt than biologically adapt to our environments now.

I am a vegetarian for personal reasons. Thanks for your input, but nothing you are going to say is all of the sudden going to make me become a meat eater again. I am very well aware of human evolutionary history, as it is what I do for a living.

As far as Judeo-Christian religious arguements go, it also states clearly in the Bible that we are not to eat pigs. If you are going to use the Bible to argue your position, I am assuming you don't eat sausage or pork. Other religions have different dietary requirements. Some demand vegetarian lifestyles, while others state that you shouldn't eat cows or kill any insects.

[black57]

you shot no holes I said survival of the species ( man) not elephants and god condemed man in the garden there health started to fail at that point when man became mortal

True, my point. But, as I said, man was not permitted to eat meat until after the flood. This was long after man was removed from the Garden of Eden. Man had canines while living in the Garden of Eden but he was a vegetarian. :agree:

B57

[etoiles]

I am not going to argue for or against vegetarianism, but I wonder this. Why must so many constantly attempt to rip apart and argue against people who are vegetarians??? Being vegetarian isn't the anti atkins, it is just a different way of eating.

Being a low carber I get very frustrated by the constant insults and arguments against and etc for vegetarians, especially since being low carb and vegetarian aren't mutually exclusive.

I have never insulted meat eaters or told them to be vegetarian, this is just something I have decided for myself.

Why must I, as a fellow low carber, constantly hear these negative things about a personal lifestyle decision???

[tamarian]

Why must I, as a fellow low carber, constantly hear these negative things about a personal lifestyle decision???

Because of a small group called PCRM, an offshoot of PETA. We actually have a sub-forum here dedicated to vegetarian low-carbers. However, in the past few months, PCRM started a campaign against Dr. Atkins and low-carb diets, with some idiotic claims, suche as low-carbing makes you impotent, meats cause cancer, etc. So the least low-carbers can do, is set them straight, and prove the fallacy of such idiotic claims.

In other words, this is directed against militant vegetarians, who think no one should eat anything but what fits their vegan lifestyle, which does effect our own personal lifestyle.

Wa'il

[etoiles]

Tamarian, thanks for the reply. I understand that there are those out there who want everyone to eat the same way as them and follow their lifestyle. It just frustrates me to constantly hear reasons why my way of eating is a bad, illogical, stupid, etc choice.

Maybe it would be best if the people who started these posts would direct their comments to a specific group instead of directing it to all vegetarians, including low carbers.

[Paleoanth]

I have to agree with etoiles here. It isn't that the PCRM is being argued against in many of these threads-it is vegetarians in general. The first post on this thread makes that pretty clear. I don't force my dietary preferences on other people, I would like the same respect shown to me. What difference does it make what the heck I choose to eat or not eat? I keep low carb and that is all that is required here.

[ItsTheWooo]

I think a lot of low carbers see moral vegetarianism as being disapproving of our way of eating (one that is animal product rich). It's less that we disrespect vegetarianism in general, but it is more that we feel attacked by many of the more militant vegetarians (i.e. peta and pcrm).

[Paleoanth]

I think a lot of low carbers see moral vegetarianism as being disapproving of our way of eating (one that is animal product rich). It's less that we disrespect vegetarianism in general, but it is more that we feel attacked by many of the more militant vegetarians (i.e. peta and pcrm).
Then that is their problem. I don't see the vegetarian people posting on this forum degrading or railing against those who choose to eat meat. There are a few vegetarians on this forum and none that I can see are the militant type. We are not Peta or PCRM. However, we seemed to be lumped together with them and targeted with ad hoc, bad science and/or illogical religious based arguments designed to put down our private dietary choices.

If you want to argue against PETA and the PCRM, go for it.

[jeff45]

I belong to P.E.T.A.
people eating tasty animals

[potatofree]

I belong to P.E.T.A.
people eating tasty animals


I don't necessarily approve of a lot of PETA's tactics, and I got a chuckle out of it the first 50 times I saw the bumpersticker, but how does quoting it add to the conversation?

[Paleoanth]

Because of a small group called PCRM, an offshoot of PETA. We actually have a sub-forum here dedicated to vegetarian low-carbers. However, in the past few months, PCRM started a campaign against Dr. Atkins and low-carb diets, with some idiotic claims, suche as low-carbing makes you impotent, meats cause cancer, etc. So the least low-carbers can do, is set them straight, and prove the fallacy of such idiotic claims.

In other words, this is directed against militant vegetarians, who think no one should eat anything but what fits their vegan lifestyle, which does effect our own personal lifestyle.

Wa'ilI am really grateful for the vegetarian area. I realize that the anti-vegetarian posts don't originate with the founders or moderators of this forum. You guys rock.

As far as I know, the PCRM and/or PETA don't visit these forums, so I am not sure how we are setting anyone straight. Unless you mean that this forum is trying to make sure the members here don't get misinformation from the bad science the PCRM spouts. That I totally agree with. I have participated on some of those threads, against PCRM myself.

The posts that concern me and I think etoiles are not the ones against the PCRM or the ones against PETA, but the ones like this very thread.

I have seen alot of threads about eating meat or being vegitarian, here is my respone to the debate .

SNIP

its that simple we are equipted to consume meat as well as veggies if we were supose to eat only sugar and carbs are mouths ould look like a honey bees.
This was not an argument against the PCRM, but a thread started to tell vegetarians they are wrong.

[Iowagirl]

I still don't get it. This anti vegetarian thread is located on a LOW CARB forum. I'm thinking all the vegetarians reading this are LOW CARBING therefore, the argument against the PCRM is rather moot.

We're all low carbing. There are some of us who eat meat. Some who don't. Some low carbers eat broccoli. Some don't. Some use Splenda. Some use Stevia. Does any of this matter?

Low carb as you see fit. No one is trying to take your bacon away.

[IceMan]

If I were a virgin back in the days when they sacrificed virgins to their gods, I'd probably want to be known as the dirty slut girl. Gods never seem to want to date dirty slut girls.

This is an endless argument...but I gotta tell ya' Paleoanth, if I didn't have balls that would be my anthem too....:D

[madp67]

I am in total agreement that this is a Low Carb forum, and as such everyone will do things quite differently to make this WOE work for them. Some may choose to eat meat, some may choose not to, some may choose to weigh daily, some may choose not to.

The real point here is that everyone is entitled to their opinion and as such it should be respected. It's not that different opinions should not be voiced on this forum, it's that when these voices get to this forum, it should be done with plenty of information to back the staked position and with the utmost respect for others that may do things differently.

My 2 cents......

[jeff45]

I could care less about peta or any other radical bunch of loones , all I was doing was initiating debate.I eat broccoli and other tasty plants as well as my share of meat .lighten up untwist your knickers and share a chuckle . last time I looked this was still legal in the u.s.a. , one of the few places left where we can still voice our opinion and express ourself.
in short its a joke get over it. yours truely jeff

[Paleoanth]

Was this a debate or a joke? Or maybe a joking debate? Or a debating joke?

I actually enjoy a good debate or a good joke. I must not get your sense of humor, though.

[Iowagirl]

I enjoy a good joke as well. Probably why I wasn't laughing at this one.

[tamarian]

This can become a sensitive topic.

PETA and PCRM are not members of this forum, we just get the occasional member join us for a quicky :)

However, their PR pervades our surroundings, with their many publicity stunts, like their post-mortem attacks on Dr. Atkins, and their continuing claims of "research" showing low-carbing causes cancer and other nasty things.

So, it not reasonable to expect that such PR will not be discussed here, because PCRM and PETA are not here. It's a public issue directly related to low-carbing, and the discussion belongs on a low-carbing forum.

So the next issue would be the debate on the ethics or morality of vegetarianism/veganism regardless of PETA/PCRM issues. We have opinions on both sides of the issues. We do have members following a vegetarian lifestyle and claim it is the moral choice, and/or that eating meat is unethical and/or immoral. Other members may disagree. And we do have members who claim vegetarianism is unhealthy, and deprives the individual of essential nutrients. Other members may disagree.

Such debate is healthy, and welcome, and the readers may form their own opinions and conclusions, or join the debate.

What is not healthy, and not welcome here, is personal attacks. Those can be dealt with by using the http://forum.lowcarber.org/images/buttons/report.gif report button.

Wa'il

[Paleoanth]

Again, what you posted is not what this particular thread is about. I have also made no claim about the health benefits or the morality of vegetarianism. Yet I get, not exactly attacks, but basically told that my personal choice is somehow an affront to nonvegetarians.

[tamarian]

Again, what you posted is not what this particular thread is about. I have also made no claim about the health benefits or the morality of vegetarianism. Yet I get, not exactly attacks, but basically told that my personal choice is somehow an affront to nonvegetarians.

Did I say you made such claims? I think you misread what I said.

I'm trying to explains why such debate is healthy. And the alternative, avoiding or removing any discussion on this topic, is not.

Wa'il

[Paleoanth]

Nope, I didn't misread what you wrote at all. I understand that you never said that I made those claims. My point is that this particular thread does not address those people who spout moral superiority for vegetarianism. This thread is not starting a debate on whether or not vegetarianism is a healthy choice in general or healthier than ominiverous diets. This thread is against ALL vegetarians. It isn't even a good healthy debate, because the science presented is bad and so are the religious reasons.

[tamarian]

Nope, I didn't misread what you wrote at all. I understand that you never said that I made those claims. My point is that this particular thread does not address those people who spout moral superiority for vegetarianism. This thread is not starting a debate on whether or not vegetarianism is a healthy choice in general or healthier than ominiverous diets. This thread is against ALL vegetarians. It isn't even a good healthy debate, because the science presented is bad and so are the religious reasons.

So I fail to understand what you are suggesting. Not every argument made on our forum is correct, and some are outright erroneous. So then what do you suggest we do with such threads?

My point was adressing what etoiles observed, which is correct. And I'm pointing the other side, which does occur occasionally.

Wa'il

[Paleoanth]

Oh, I am not suggesting anything that you do anything! I apologize if that is the way it came across. I am all for free speech whether I agree with it or not.

I guess what I am trying to accomplish is to request that people who want to post against vegetarians make it clear that they are posting against those who claim moral superiority, claim dubious health benefits or the crap the PCRM and PETA spout. If their only goal is to try and marginalize the ones who are quietly going about their low carb vegetarianism-I wish they would think a minute before hitting the post button.

[Nancy LC]

I don't really see how the original posting was an attack on Vegetarians. It sounded like the person was trying to defend his choice from someone who disagreed with it. Not that he was attacking vegetarianism at all.

[ItsTheWooo]

The original poster wasn't attacking vegetarians as human beings, he was critiquing vegetarianism as a lifestyle and trying to open up a discussion about it. I don't see what's wrong with that. Without debate between two people, exchange of information cannot take place, and one cannot learn or grow. Where would we be if everyone just agreed with each other all the time? Debate is a valid format for expression of ideas, and often proves productive.

If you disagree with the original posters sentiments, that's perfectly fine. I happen to disagree with using religion as a basis to support something that's best established by repeatable science myself, and therefore I am less interested in the choice to eat meat from a moral perspective. However, you seem to be implying that the original poster was some how trying to attack vegetarians by expressing his criticisms of the moral choice not to eat meat. I don't see it that way. If someone expresses their criticisms of a low carbohydrate diet, I don't take it as a personal attack. I certainly may disagree with them, I may even regard them as ignorant, but criticizing atkins is not criticizing me.

Now, on the other hand, if someone were saying negative things about people who go on low carbohydrate diets (i.e. they are all fat idiots who want to eat a bowl of bacon instead of control themselves!!!), that would be a personal insult, just as would it be a personal insult if someone said something bad about people who choose to be vegetarian.

[jeff45]

wow I havent seen so much disturbance in the force since I declared I was a liberal democrat and let it slip that I was president of a socialist labor union

[potatofree]

Here's my question...

I understand that discussion of these topics as they pertain to low-carbing belongs in these areas, but wouldn't whether or not God meant for us to eat meat or veggies really belong in one of the off-topic areas?

[tamarian]

Here's my question...

I understand that discussion of these topics as they pertain to low-carbing belongs in these areas, but wouldn't whether or not God meant for us to eat meat or veggies really belong in one of the off-topic areas?
Possibly, if that was the only point made.

Wa'il

[page40]

isn't it being against all processed foods? whole foods is the way to go... eat meat or don't eat meat doesn't matter as long as you get what your body needs and do not feed it crap in my opinion.