KFC vs. PETA - Buckets of Blood

[kyrasdad]

PETA Ups Anti-KFC Campaign With 'Blood' (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040324/ap_on_re_us/peta_kfc_1)

By SONJA BARISIC, Associated Press Writer

NORFOLK, Va. - The animal-rights activists who once suggested Ronald McDonald was a bloody butcher are going after Colonel Sanders, contending cruelty is the "secret recipe" for KFC's fried chicken.

Starting next month, Norfolk-based People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals plans to hand out "Buckets of Blood" to children outside KFC restaurants and at schools near the restaurants. The buckets are part of PETA's campaign against what it says are farming and slaughter abuses by KFC's suppliers.

The 5-inch-tall, red-and-white striped containers mimic KFC's buckets. But instead of fried chicken, each is filled with items including a bag of fake blood and bones, a bloodied plastic chicken and a cardboard caricature of a blood-spattered Colonel Sanders holding a butcher knife toward a terrified-looking chicken.

Labels on the bucket proclaim, "Shhh! The 'secret recipe' in this bucket of body parts is ... cruelty" and "The Colonel's secret recipe: live scalding, painful debeaking, crippled chickens."

KFC spokeswoman Bonnie Warschauer initially said, "We don't comment on the corporate terrorist activities of PETA. They are corporate terrorists and just like the United States government, we will not negotiate with corporate terrorists."

Warschauer added that "PETA has totally crossed the line of free speech and acceptable behavior" and "all they want is a vegetarian world."

"They misrepresent the truth about our responsible, industry-leading animal welfare standards," she said. "We're committed to the humane treatment of chickens."

KFC, part of Louisville, Ky.-based Yum! Brands Inc., has an animal welfare advisory council made up of highly regarded experts, Warschauer said. She added that while the company does not own chicken farms, it monitors suppliers to determine whether they are using humane procedures.

PETA spokesman Bruce Friedrich said the campaign is "about getting KFC to stop supporting abuse of chickens that shocks the conscience of any kind person."

A label on the bucket says "Just for you, KFC's suppliers cram thousands of chickens into filthy sheds, sear baby chicks' beaks off with a hot wire, slam the birds into crates (breaking their wings and legs), slice their throats open and scald them to death while they're still conscious. Enjoy."

The buckets are reminiscent of the "Unhappy Meals" PETA began distributing in 2000 as part of a public relations assault against McDonald's. The boxes, similar to the Happy Meals that McDonald's serves to children, contained a stuffed doll that looked like Ronald McDonald holding a bloody butcher's knife.

PETA suspended its campaign against McDonald's in response to an announcement by the fast-food chain that it would improve living conditions for its chickens. McDonald's officials said PETA had nothing to do with its initiative.

PETA plans to begin handing out the buckets on the West Coast and in the Midwest in mid- to late April, then branch out from there, Friedrich said. PETA eventually will have people distributing the buckets all over North America as well as in Australia, India, the United Kingdom and South Africa, he said.

___

On the Net:

KFC Corp.: http://www.kfc.com/
Yum! Brands Inc.: http://www.yum.com/
PETA Web site: http://www.KentuckyFriedCruelty.com

[kyrasdad]

My take: Can they both lose this fight somehow? We have PETA, who no doubt is accurate about the awful living conditions upstream in KFC's supply chain, but who really think that the most pampered chicken of all time who got eaten was still abused.

On the other hand, you have KFC, with the deceptive "I got thin by eating chicken" ads last fall.

A pox on the lot of em.

[fridayeyes]

"Starting next month, Norfolk-based People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals plans to hand out "Buckets of Blood" to children outside KFC restaurants and at schools near the restaurants."

Oy!

Double Oy!!

1) This is emotionally abusive. "Hey, Let's all traumatize innocent children who don't yet have the developmental skills to comprehend our motives or our message!" "Fight abuse with abuse!"

2) Well, at least school regs will force them to be off school property and a certain distance away....

[Kristine]

Sickening. :nono: How many young children earn the money that's being spend at KFC? Zero. I'm sure KFC chickens aren't exactly treated like lap dogs, but jeez, PETA, at least go after the decision-making adults in the family.

They're really living up to that bumper sticker that asks why PETA goes after women wearing furs but not bike gangsters in leather. They go after little kids, too.

If PETA pests did that to my kid (if I had one), they better run! I'd chase them down and smack them repeatedly with the biggest, greasy drumstick I could find in the bucket. :devil:

[Angeline]

It's just a publicity stunt. What advantage would they possibly gain from terrorizing children except to get parents very very angry. I think they are just hoping KFC will cave in their demand using the threat of angry parents and tearful kids. Which just smacks me as very unethical.

It's just too bad they are a bunch of unethical terrorist vegans because they could do a lot to improve the treatment of animals. They could try to organize a boycott of KFC by revealing how bad their livestock is treated. Instead they are so focused on trying to convince people tha eating meat is wrong period, that the real issue of animal cruelty get lost. It's a real shame

[RockerChik]

I dunno, why shield "shelter" children from the horrid animal cruelty perpretrated by these corporations? They SHOULD be made aware of it, as far as I am concerned.

[Lisa N]

How many young children earn the money that's being spend at KFC? Zero. I'm sure KFC chickens aren't exactly treated like lap dogs, but jeez, PETA, at least go after the decision-making adults in the family.

They're not likely to target the adults in the family who are actually buying the chicken for the same reason that they don't harass biker gangs wearing leather. :bash: Most of the adults would likely tell them exactly where they can stick that bucket of fake blood and how best to rotate it for maximum effect. :rolleyes:
Seems PETA has more in common with those chickens than they realize. :rolleyes:

[ItsTheWooo]

I dunno, why shield "shelter" children from the horrid animal cruelty perpretrated by these corporations? They SHOULD be made aware of it, as far as I am concerned.
A child isn't mature enough to think objectively about such a weighty subject. Their level of reasoning is too immature; not until adolescence does a person have a reasonably well developed ability to understand "gray" abstract concepts, and issues that don't directly relate to themselves. To a child, everything is black and white, and everything is about themselves.

A child exposed to such propaganda would be more apt to think they are a bad person for eating chicken, rather than KFC the corporation is wrong for treating chickens badly.

This is, of course, exactly what PETA wants.

[Lisa N]

A child isn't mature enough to think objectively about such a weighty subject. Their level of reasoning is too immature; not until adolescence does a person have a reasonably well developed ability to understand "gray" abstract concepts, and issues that don't directly relate to themselves. To a child, everything is black and white, and everything is about themselves.

A child exposed to such propaganda would be more apt to think they are a bad person for eating chicken, rather than KFC the corporation is wrong for treating chickens badly.

This is, of course, exactly what PETA wants.

As a parent, I couldn't agree more. We "shelter" children in certain situations because they are not mentally or emotionally capable of handling certain things (like death, violence, abstract thinking) until they reach a certain level of maturity. Exposing them to such things before they are capable of understanding it as an adult would doesn't "toughen them up" as some seem to think...it confuses and frightens them.
I have no problem with discussing animal cruelty with an older child who is capable of understanding it in a mature way, but handing buckets of fake blood and chicken parts to little kids borders on just plain sick.

[kyrasdad]

I dunno, why shield "shelter" children from the horrid animal cruelty perpretrated by these corporations? They SHOULD be made aware of it, as far as I am concerned.

Here's the rub: they aren't your children to shelter or not shelter. You don't get to make that choice for my kid, or for the children of others. If these people showed that stuff to Kyra, and I was nearby I'd stick the bloody bucket up their bloody you-know-what's.

As far as you're concerned is of absolutely no relevance to parents on what their children are exposed to. Same goes for PETA nutjobs.

[kyrasdad]

I do want to point out that I don't let KFC off the hook at all. They serve an unhealthy product, and for all I know they mistreat the animals in their supply chain. I suspect that no chicken which ends up on my table has had a happy-go-lucky, free range life. They're processed like widgets.

That doesn't mean I don't eat them. But most people, probably me included, cannot afford to pay consistently for free range and other, better chicken. I guess my social consciousness doesn't extend to chickens.

[RockerChik]

No "rub", K-dad. To each his own opinion. Chill out and kindly do refrain from your hostile tone.

[gtarent]

I dunno, why shield "shelter" children from the horrid animal cruelty perpretrated by these corporations? They SHOULD be made aware of it, as far as I am concerned.

I dunno, probably the same reason we shouldn't expose children graphic evidence of the realities of war, or graphic portrayals of sexual experience.... If PETA wanted to educate myself of animal conditions I am OK with that. Scaring the crap out of my kids who do not even eat at KFC is another story.

[RockerChik]

You are making a comparison between exposure to animal cruelty issues and "sexually graphic" material? Hmm....I will respectfully disagree with this point of view. Again, whatcha got here is another person's point of view. That's allowed, right? Thanks a bunch!

War? Ok - to tell you the truth, the way things are going in our society, the realities of war are simply unavoidable. Exposure to these very real issues is ultimately safer and more realistic than attempting to "protect" kids by putting blinders on them. Kids are tough, you know. They can take it, especially when things are explained to them lovingly and intelligently. Their heards are not gonna explode from some reality.

Ok, PETA goes a little ape-sh*t sometimes, for very good reason. It DOES get people's attention and that's what they're TRYING to do. If anything, their displays cause kids to ask: "Mommy, Daddy - why are they doing that?" Then, MOMMY and DADDY, it's YOUR job to explain and enlighten YOUR KIDS about the issue. Unless your explanation is: "Oh, don't worry - those people are mean and crazy. Eat your yummy chicken and stop worrying about it, Sonny-boy." Which I suspect many people do, sadly.

PETA is an amazing organization and I support them. The incredible amount of cruelty that allows people to mutiliate and torture animals is no different than the mind-set which allows bombs to drop and the extermination of villages filled with innocent men, women and yes - CHILDREN. Come on! Nobody gets this? What don'tcha get?

With this profound knowledge implanted in our kids, there's also a good chance that the seeds will be sewn in today's youth to want to DO something about the sad state of affairs we're in. Children are, after all, our hope for tomorrow.

Wouldn't you prefer that there be environmentally conscious, cruelty-and-war abhoring individuals running the show here on earth by the time we're in our golden years? I know I would.

[Lisa N]

RockerChik...

I think a lot depends here on what age child we are talking about. As ItsTheWoo pointed out, very young (primary school age) children are psychologically incapable of drawing the conclusions from such demonstrations described in the original article that you seem to think they should. In short, they will come away from such an encounter with a very different perception and idea of what the message is than an older child or adult would.

Ok, PETA goes a little ape-sh*t sometimes, for very good reason. It DOES get people's attention and that's what they're TRYING to do. If anything, their displays cause kids to ask: "Mommy, Daddy - why are they doing that?" Then, MOMMY and DADDY, it's YOUR job to explain and enlighten YOUR KIDS about the issue.

Moral and ethical issues regarding PETA's tactics and activities aside, you're making the assumption here that parents aren't "doing their job". Admittedly, some aren't, but as a parent who has contact with lots of other parents, I have yet to meet one that is teaching their children that cruelty and war are good things that should be engaged in whenever possible.
Am I a bad parent because I don't teach my kids that eating animals is murder? Not in my opinion.
As a parent, it's also MY job to determine when my kids are ready to learn certain lessons on those subjects, not an organization who could use a few lessons in morality and ethics themselves.

Kids are tough, you know. They can take it, especially when things are explained to them lovingly and intelligently.

IMNSHO, handing a young child a bucket filled with fake blood and chicken parts is neither loving OR intelligent. Neither is exposing them to the "realities" of this world before they are capable of understanding it.
I'll give you a concrete example of what I'm talking about. When 9-11 happened, my kids were in first grade. My husband let them watch some of the footage from that awful event on TV against my better judgement using the same reasoning that you used above. Yes, there were lots of questions and I did my best to explain to them (lovingly and intelligently) what happened in a way that they could understand. What did they take away from it? Nightmares for weeks and the fear that a plane was going to crash into their school, not that the people who would do such a thing were monsters or that it was a horrible tragedy in which thousands of innocent people died...as ItsTheWoo pointed out...it was all about them. Still think it's a good idea to expose young kids to "reality" and that they're tough enough to handle it?

Wouldn't you prefer that there be environmentally conscious, cruelty-and-war abhoring individuals running the show here on earth by the time we're in our golden years? I know I would.

If you're really serious about that, a good place to start would be in eliminating the violent video games and movies that our culture encourages children to engage in from a young age. If that's not teaching them that violence and cruelty are not only okay, but "fun", I don't know what is.

[potatofree]

Sooo.. let's see. Save the chickens but scar the children? As a parent, if someone tried to shove their bloody bucket at my child so they can feel morally superior, they would have some extra crispy SOMETHINGS.

[kyrasdad]

Again, whatcha got here is another person's point of view. That's allowed, right? Thanks a bunch!

Nobody said you didn't have your right to a point of view. They disagreed with what you believe. That's okay, isn't it?

Exposure to these very real issues is ultimately safer and more realistic than attempting to "protect" kids by putting blinders on them. Kids are tough, you know.

But -- and you don't seem to understand this -- educating other people's children isn't up to you or to PETA. PETA has neither the right or the responsibility to educate other people's children. Especially in such a graphic way, but in actuality, not even in a dry and sedate way.

If some moron tries to hand my little girl a bloody chicken bucket in some misguided attempt to "educate", I will act most unpleasantly. If I want to do it, fine, but that's up to me. Not you. Not PETA.

Ok, PETA goes a little ape-sh*t sometimes, for very good reason. It DOES get people's attention and that's what they're TRYING to do.

Actually, to be blunt, I think their tactics are more or less masturbation. They don't convince anyone who doesn't already believe the way they do. It's about shock value, not winning over people. This isn't even the most outrageous thing they have ever done. It's all stupid because none of it advances their cause. A middle of the road person sees it and dismisses them as radical kooks.

(Which is a very solid conclusion).

If anything, their displays cause kids to ask: "Mommy, Daddy - why are they doing that?" Then, MOMMY and DADDY, it's YOUR job to explain and enlighten YOUR KIDS about the issue.

You don't get it. It's our jobs to decide whether or not the issue is ever brought up in the first place. If PETA wanted to present a rational case to my kid, I might let them. I want her to think for herself. If they want to hand her a bloody chicken bucket, then I don't want them near her.

Wouldn't you prefer that there be environmentally conscious, cruelty-and-war abhoring individuals running the show here on earth by the time we're in our golden years? I know I would.

But that ain't up to you to decide, and it's certainly not up to PETA to decide. Parents make those choices, and we may have a different viewpoint than PETA's. If that's okay with you.

[kyrasdad]

No "rub", K-dad. To each his own opinion. Chill out and kindly do refrain from your hostile tone.

No hostility intended, RockerChik. I agree, to each his own opinion. I hope you don't think disagreeing with you constitutes hostility. :)

[gtarent]

You are making a comparison between exposure to animal cruelty issues and "sexually graphic" material? Hmm....I will respectfully disagree with this point of view. Again, whatcha got here is another person's point of view. That's allowed, right? Thanks a bunch!

War? Ok - to tell you the truth, the way things are going in our society, the realities of war are simply unavoidable. Exposure to these very real issues is ultimately safer and more realistic than attempting to "protect" kids by putting blinders on them. Kids are tough, you know. They can take it, especially when things are explained to them lovingly and intelligently. Their heards are not gonna explode from some reality.

I will have to respectfully disagree that giving a child a bucket full of fake blood is lovingly and intelligently exposing them to animal cruelty issues.

The world can be a cold and terrible place at times. My children will learn this soon enough. Right now I want them to learn to see the good, and will teach them to deal with the bad as they are ready. You may choose to raise your children differently, I just ask PETA to respect my decisions on what my children should be exposed to, which they seem unwilling to do.

[fridayeyes]

"Wouldn't you prefer that there be environmentally conscious, cruelty-and-war abhoring individuals running the show here on earth by the time we're in our golden years? I know I would. "

Not if they believe that the ends justify the means.

[PaulaB]

I have never eaten a kfc after what happened in one of them several years ago. There was a franchise that was done for selling






kf RAT
A customer complained to the health authorities because the "chicken breast" had 4 paws. It got shut down but ewww.

[crysania]

having been vegitarian for awhile when I was younger ... even then I could not suport PETA I just don't get there tactics. I don't suport animal cruelity mind (in fact I have always been closer to the animals I raised then people!) & I know how chickens are raised in mass for eggs and the like... them poor leggerns are in a small cage that has a slanted wire bottom so the eggs drop out with a food cup on one side and a water trough on the other and most the time they pack them in two or three per section they stand on one another there is so little room... I seen that when my mom went to buy there old hens (they rotate them like once a year) we would take them home and fatten them up on the farm then sell them... but for weeks they would stand in one place you couldn't put the food and water apart cause they would never have found it and lord forbid it rained they didn't know to go inside

[Angeline]

Actually they are kids who grow up in this world without any blinkers on. They are exposed to the cruelty and coldness of the world from an early age. It doesn't necessarily make them environmentally conscious, cruelty-and-war abhoring individuals. In fact it oftens hardens them to the point where they don't care, or even become cruel and cold themselves. You have to learn what love, security and compassion is, from an early age, to be outraged by it's absence later on.

Actually, to be blunt, I think their tactics are more or less masturbation. They don't convince anyone who doesn't already believe the way they do. It's about shock value, not winning over people. This isn't even the most outrageous thing they have ever done. It's all stupid because none of it advances their cause. A middle of the road person sees it and dismisses them as radical kooks.

Well said !!! Totally spot on. And it's really sad because animal cruelty deserves to be addressed. What they are doing is counterproductive. It turns people away from the issue rather than get them involved. That's because they are way too radical in their beliefs. What they want is unrealistic. They want everyone to become vegetarians. It's NEVER going to happen. NEVER. Don't tell me that the bucket of blood stunt is to get people interested in animal cruelty. That's BS. What they are trying to do is shock and disgust people into not eating chicken. They are vegan extremists, and extremism never works.

In the mean time, the real issue of animal cruelty is lost. Individual people have limited power but when they can vote with their dollars they become a powerful force. When you give them a chance to excercise that power, you can get stunning results. If the PETA worked to offer consumers alternative, like cruelty-free certified meat, they would get real results. But that's not about to happen because they don't believe in eating meat period. So a fringe group they will remain, until they adopt a more moderate stance.

[Quinadal]

If PETA pests did that to my kid (if I had one), they better run! I'd chase them down and smack them repeatedly with the biggest, greasy drumstick I could find in the bucket. :devil:
Nonono! :nono: Make them EAT it! That would be exquisite torture! Beating them with it would be a waste of a tasty drumstick! :lol:

[Quinadal]

Ok, PETA goes a little ape-sh*t sometimes, for very good reason. It DOES get people's attention and that's what they're TRYING to do.
No, they go apesh*t because they're a bunch of vegan fruitcakes that live in a dream world and should be locked up.

PETA is an amazing organization and I support them. The incredible amount of cruelty that allows people to mutiliate and torture animals is no different than the mind-set which allows bombs to drop and the extermination of villages filled with innocent men, women and yes - CHILDREN. Come on! Nobody gets this? What don'tcha get?
See above comment.

[doreen T]

See above comment. Anybody that supports PETA is a freak.
I'd like to remind folks to refrain from flaming and personal insults when trying to get your point across. Please review the Forum Rules (http://forum.lowcarber.org/register.php?s=&do=showrules) .. especially the part about losing your posting privileges if you persist.

thanks,

Admin.

[Quinadal]

Sorry. Got carried away. :doah:

[TarHeel]

That doesn't mean I don't eat them. But most people, probably me included, cannot afford to pay consistently for free range and other, better chicken. I guess my social consciousness doesn't extend to chickens.

When I was a little girl (but older than Kyra), we'd go to visit my grandparents in another state. They kept chickens in their backyard for the meat as well as the eggs. I can remember watching the maid go out into the backyard on Sunday mornings, behead a chicken with a hatchet, and hang it by its feet on the clothesline to drain the blood before plucking it. Occasionally a beheaded chicken would "escape" and run around for a while headless.

I think this might appall me now, but as a child it fascinated me! I'm sure that a lot of children growing up on farms have a healthy attitude about raising an animal lovingly while realizing that it is eventually to be slaughtered.

I don't care for KFC, and think PETA is cutting off their own nose to spite their face. My grandmother made the very best fried chicken I've ever had, and having "known" the chicken didn't harm my appetite one bit....! Oh. Perhaps that was because it had led such a happy life pecking at Japanese beetles.

I also agree with the poster who pointed out that children who face cruelty and hardship early in life often turn out to carry the tradition on to their children. Not always, of course, but you'd have a difficult time convincing me that the majority of kids in inner city projects grow up to be peaceful, kind adults.

And for what it's worth, I think a quick hatchet chop is a lot more "humane" that being torn apart by a raccoon.

Kay

[RockerChik]

Good day, all. I feel soooooo welcome here, so I just had to write again~!:) I rather expected some of your - uh - "vigorous" responses.

SO - here are my notes to you:

Lisa N - True, the age of the child who is exposed to violence does make a difference in the degree of their reaction. I will agree with that. Just out of curiosity - what age would you consider appropriate?

I don't profess to know everything. I DO happen to be a professional who has worked with many, many children and young adults (healthy as well as abused, disabled and mentally challenged) extensively. YOU may be the "ultimate parent", but in too many cases, I have seen so-called "parents" who are not doing their job and who had no business bringing children into the world, much less attempt to raise them. So I guess that's where my attitude that "parents aren't doing their jobs" comes from.

Believe me, Lisa, it is not my assumption that all parents are not doing their best. Raising a child, though for many a joyous endeavor, can be the most anxiety-ridden, difficult job in the world. Every child is different and every parent is different. So pardon me, to all of you who are raising your children responsibly. And best to you all.

You misunderstand me. I never said that handing a child a bucket of blood, etc. was a "loving" act. When on earth did I say that? (As a matter of fact, it seems that most of my quotes from my previous post were taken apart by some of you and used out of context to suit your own "enraged responses". C'mon!)

I'm a New Yorker. As far as 9-11, it sounds as if your husband did his best. Let me tell you something about September 11th. I was working in a day-care center here in New York City on 9/11/01. Several beautiful little kids from my center, ages ranging from 3 to 11, lost a PARENT on 9/11. Ok? Gee. Puts things into perspective, huh? This is the world we are living in. This is the very sad truth.


Also, I personally don't watch video games or violent movies. Why would people with kids have those in their homes? Buy your kid an instrument. Take them hiking. Take them to see a show. Play a game with them. Read with them. ANYTHING but those assinine brain-dead video games.

Potatofree: What? "Feeling morally superior" honestly does not have anything to do with this. It's simply not the concept behind PETA.

K-Dad: Yes, PETA does go for the shock value. I respect your convictions. However, the masturbation analogy, I just don't agree. Not everybody is middle-of-the-road who will dismiss PETA as kooks. For many folks, severe tactics are a much-needed wake-up call. In this particular case, PETA got to the adult populice via their kids and it was not a cool way to go about it according to most of you. But please remember - not everyone feels the way that you do.

Paula B: CRUELTY TO RATS! CRUELTY TO RATS! RATS ARE SMARTER THAN MOST HUMANS! KFC, those SHIESTERS!!!! JUST HOW FAR WILL THEY GO? (ok, bad joke. Except that actually, I do think alot of rats are definitely smarter than some of the 2-legged population. Check out Jerry Springer. Really depressing.)

Angeline: Very articulate post. I like your ideas. As a matter of fact, when you look at all of the energy that was expended on this thread.....

Many of you seem well-spoken and like you have a little time on your hands to clack away here on this forum. Perhaps all of the concerned parents should take the time to write to PETA about their concerns. You don't need to attack them or criticize (or maybe you DO, that's up to you), but let them know your concerns on this issue. You never know. You could well give them something to think with regard to their tactics and school children. Just an idea. You can't do anything without some kind of communication and these people WILL communicate with you, if you make an honest effort. I know, I know - it's so much easier to rant your indignation and then just dismiss them as "wacko's", right? But you might be pleasantly surprised. And if not, at least you tried.


Peace~!
The Rocker


[ administrator note - this post has been edited. Please refrain from insults or personal attacks; if you object to someone's message use the "report post" link to express your concern. Do not retaliate with more flames, or your posting privileges will be suspended. .. Doreen ]

[kyrasdad]

K-Dad: Yes, PETA does go for the shock value. I respect your convictions. However, the masturbation analogy, I just don't agree. Not everybody is middle-of-the-road who will dismiss PETA as kooks. For many folks, severe tactics are a much-needed wake-up call. In this particular case, PETA got to the adult populice via their kids and it was not a cool way to go about it according to most of you. But please remember - not everyone feels the way that you do.

Yup, I'm aware not everyone feels as I do, and can't see anyplace in any of my posts where you could have possibly gotten the impression that I have a problem with that.

When it comes to deciding what my kid can or can't see, I couldn't give a rat's ass what others "feel." It's not relevant. PETA are fools for going near children with that stuff -- it's stupid and counterproductive. You seem to be backing off earlier statements to some degree that PETA should hand those bloody buckets to other people's children because they aren't teaching them what PETA believes. That's good, because PETA actually wouldn't care if the chickens lived luxurious lifestyles right up until they get slaughtered and eaten -- they oppose the eating of animals, period. I'm in complete disagreement, and will teach my children otherwise.

What's funny is, I don't mind them going after KFC, if they can make things better for the animals in KFC's supply chain. I think they are going about it in a massively stupid way.

(And I wouldn't care if every KFC in the country closed today, but that isn't the point either - I don't eat there, but I'd still eat chicken).

[Kristine]

I, for one, would have no interest in communicating with PETA because (a) I firmly believe that veganism is unhealthy for virtually 100% of human beings, and (b) their ties to the ALF, PCRM, and their history of obnoxious public stunts. I take them about as seriously a group of ten year olds.

If they were specifically an anti-cruelty group actually interested in making REAL CHANGE in the industry, instead of just "raising awareness" and trying to convince everyone that they can be healthy on a vegan diet, I'd consider.

[crysania]

I can remember watching the maid go out into the backyard on Sunday mornings, behead a chicken with a hatchet, and hang it by its feet on the clothesline to drain the blood before plucking it. Occasionally a beheaded chicken would "escape" and run around for a while headless.

I think this might appall me now, but as a child it fascinated me! I'm sure that a lot of children growing up on farms have a healthy attitude about raising an animal lovingly while realizing that it is eventually to be slaughtered.


living on the farm, it never bothered me one bit that alot of the animals we raised became food, either we slaughtered them ourselves or we sold them for that perpose it was just part of the food chain. I knew what breeds were being raised for showing and befriended them
what did bother me is someones dogs getting in our yard and killing just to kill. they would have chased them all over the yard nipping pulling skin and feathers off then letting them go and catching them again ect. many a neighbor's dogs and strays were shot for this reason. I always felt for the poor birds and wished the poeple that were not taking care of there dogs could have been smacked around a few times.

[RockerChik]

Gee, these "down-home barnyard tales" are making me just a little bit sick!

[Lisa N]

Lisa N - True, the age of the child who is exposed to violence does make a difference in the degree of their reaction. I will agree with that. Just out of curiosity - what age would you consider appropriate?

As I said in my post earlier, Primary school age children for the most part, lack the cognitive ability to think abstractly and understand abstract concepts. They also tend to be very egocentric...they relate everything to themselves. Some children develop the ability for abstract thinking a bit earlier, some later so it depends very much in the individual child and how mature their thinking is. In general, I would say not before the age of 12 or 13.

I'm a New Yorker. As far as 9-11, it sounds as if your husband did his best. Let me tell you something about September 11th. I was working in a day-care center here in New York City on 9/11/01. Several beautiful little kids from my center, ages ranging from 3 to 11, lost a PARENT on 9/11. Ok? Gee. Puts things into perspective, huh? This is the world we are living in. This is the very sad truth.

What perspective would you like me to put it in? New Yorkers aren't the only people in the world who lost friends and loved ones on 9-11. I think you're missing my point that it's better to not deliberately expose young children to the harsh realities of this world, such as the fact that there are maniacs out there who will hijack an airline and crash it into a skyscraper to make a point, before they are cognitively able to understand it. I really feel for those kids who were forced to face such a harsh reality at a young age because circumstances forced it upon them because they are going to have a hard struggle to overcome and it's grossly unfair to force that on a child who is not ready for it, but there is a very big difference between kids who have to face such things due to circumstances and deliberately exposing your kids to such things unnecessarily with the idea that "they're tough and can handle it". Yes, crappy things happen in this world and there are times when you simply don't have it in your power to protect your children from it, but choosing to deliberately put them in contact with those types of situations before they are ready for it is not in the best interest of the child.
When it comes down to it, I think Angeline made a very good point. I think that if you look at it statistically, children who are consistently exposed to violence and a lack of caring from a young age rarely grow up to become caring and non-violent adults. You can't be outraged at its absence if you've never experienced it for yourself.

Many of you seem well-spoken and like you have a little time on your hands to clack away here on this forum. Perhaps all of the concerned parents should take the time to write to PETA about their concerns.

Hey...some of us are here as volunteers to moderate the forum and give support. As for voicing my concerns to PETA; there is wisdom in knowing that what you have to say will have all the impact of spitting into the wind. PETA is an extremist organization who will not listen to or consider any viewpoint but their own. They have proved that repeatedly with their actions and disregard for objections to their tactics (see recent article in the Media forum over objections to a couple of billboards they paid for recently and their response to it). They have also shown through their associations that they are willing to support extreme measures (including destruction of private property and endangering human lives) to advance their agenda.
Whether someone chooses to support PETA or not is completely up to them. It is a free country, after all. However, knowing what I do about their tactics and who they choose to support and associate with, I could never support that organization no matter how good I believed their motives to be. Simply put, their means do not justify their ends. I'm against animal cruelty, but I'm also against supporting terrorists because they can benefit your cause. Speaking of their ends, it's PETA's firm belief that eating any animal, no matter how lovingly it was raised in how good a conditions, is wrong and, in effect, murder. If they want to believe that, it's fine with me; they're welcome to not eat meat or use products that came from animals to their heart's content, but when they start trying to force that view on me and my children, I will object strenuously. It's no different than trying to force your religious or philosophical beliefs and values on those who do not share them.

[bertdw]

Quote:

Gee, these "down-home barnyard tales" are making me just a little bit sick!



Isnt' it amazing how far from nature our society is. 150 years ago people would have thought you were a loon if you thought like this.

[Lisa N]

You misunderstand me. I never said that handing a child a bucket of blood, etc. was a "loving" act. When on earth did I say that?

I believe it was a response to this quote:

Ok - to tell you the truth, the way things are going in our society, the realities of war are simply unavoidable. Exposure to these very real issues is ultimately safer and more realistic than attempting to "protect" kids by putting blinders on them. Kids are tough, you know. They can take it, especially when things are explained to them lovingly and intelligently. Their heards are not gonna explode from some reality.


I DO happen to be a professional who has worked with many, many children and young adults (healthy as well as abused, disabled and mentally challenged) extensively.

That being as it may, RockerChick...you will have no idea how it feels to watch your kids react to seeing real people die until it's your child you are watching react to it and your child that you have to comfort in the wee hours of the morning because they are having yet another nightmare about it. Same thing goes for how you will feel about other people who have no idea where your child is at cognitively, pushing some agenda on them in a very graphic and, IMO, inappropriate manner regardless of whether or not you feel that it's an appropriate time to do so or an appropriate way to present it to them.
I could say a great deal more about the inappropriateness of PETA's tactic in this particular situation from a parental standpoint, but I think I'll leave it for now.

[TarHeel]

I wrote my "down home barnyard tale" in an effort to dilute the animosity in this thread. Just thought it might provide a different perspective, and to be honest, what worries me is that a lot of kids today would think a bucket with a bag of fake blood and bones in it is pretty "cool". Am I alone in thinking this? Have no kids myself.

And I also thought your "I feel sooooo welcome here" post was fairly well balanced. So I had some hope for you.

Never mind. Perhaps the only point we might agree on is the amount of violence and obscenity and just plain rudeness that is everywhere on television these days. Before I retired, I worked with children with autism and their families. Most of them watched "The Simpsons" as a family on a regular basis. I 've only watched the show once .....which was enough....but I can't tell you how many parents I talked with who couldn't understand why their autistic kids (at least the higher functioning ones) had become so rudely "mouthy".

Gee. Duh. "Teach your children well."

Kay

[Lisa N]

Never mind. Perhaps the only point we might agree on is the amount of violence and obscenity and just plain rudeness that is everywhere on television these days. Before I retired, I worked with children with autism and their families. Most of them watched "The Simpsons" as a family on a regular basis. I 've only watched the show once .....which was enough....but I can't tell you how many parents I talked with who couldn't understand why their autistic kids (at least the higher functioning ones) had become so rudely "mouthy".

If you think The Simpsons is bad (and I agree with you that it just teaches kids that it's cool to be mouthy to adults), have you ever seen South Park?
I watched it once and honestly didn't see the humor in a show where every other word is a profanity coming from a kid's mouth. If I heard my kids talking like that, they'd find out in a hurry what liquid Palmolive tastes like. :p

[RockerChik]

Tarheel, when I said that I felt "soooooooo welcome here", that was a little sarcasm. I actually don't feel welcome (just look at the reactions I continue to get, huh) but I still feel like contributing my opinion. I find debates stimulating and I like to learn from other people's views. That's all, really.

When I said that the "down-home barnyard tales" were makin' me a little nauseous, I meant no animosity toward you. It was said rather tongue-in-cheek, also in an attempt to lighten things up a bit here. So sorry if it was not interpreted as such, honestly! I actually get a cool vibe from your posts. You seem like a great lady.

Incidentally, some of my most rewarding and fascinating experiences have been in working with autistic children. And yes, I agree with you, shows like the Simpsons fairly hynotize kids - kids with disabilities or not. And as a result, that "rudeness" you speak of is running rampant. It's become "the norm" in our culture. It's horrifying, isn't it?

I am a vegetarian in the sense that I still eat fish and dairy, just no meat. It's been a gradual transition off of meat over the years. For a long time I have been feeling ethically wrong about eating it, and it was not agreeing with my digestion.

A few months ago, I experienced "the clincher". My father was raised on a farm in Europe and I call him "The Meat King". His idea of a grand old time was visiting Europe this past summer and assisting in the slaughter of a 250-lb. pig for a huge feast held in his honor. And then bringing home the videotape of the slaughter for the rest of the family to watch. Talk about your "barnyard extravaganzas". I was practically keeling over and in tears before running out of the room. I guess I'm really not cut out for that kinda thing.

You wrote:

"what worries me is that a lot of kids today would think a bucket with a bag of fake blood and bones in it is pretty "cool". Am I alone in thinking this?"

This cracked me up. I didn't even think of that angle, but you are absolutely right. Lots of kids would find this kinda thing totally cool and fun, and relish throwing the fake blood and bones at eachother in the schoolyard.

Teach your children indeed!
:)

[TarHeel]

Lisa: Nope, never seen South Park. And don't want to. We pretty much stopped watchinng any tv at all a couple of years ago, simply because it seemed to have become so incredibly stupid. We only keep the tv and the cable for college basketball and watching the Braves and the Cubs play baseball.

I'm clearly too old to be in whatever "loop" is popular these days. In my mind, rudeness to ANYONE is not cool.

I'm really, really glad that I'm not trying to raise children in the world today.....

Kay

[potatofree]

I think it's irrelevant to the issue that some parents aren't doing their job in raising their kids. That STILL doesn't make it PETA's job.

[Lisa N]

We pretty much stopped watchinng any tv at all a couple of years ago, simply because it seemed to have become so incredibly stupid.

When it comes to the networks, I mostly agree with you. However...there are some very good programs out there if you know where to look. We watch a lot of Discovery Channel, The History Channel, Animal Planet and other such channels. It's getting bad, though, when you even have to monitor the Disney channel for appropriateness. :rolleyes:

RockerChik...sorry you seem to have taken disagreement with your position as a sign that you are unwelcome. We don't frown on debate or disagreement here as long as it's done within the boundaries of the forum rules.

[TarHeel]

Now, see....once we get a bit off topic, we can all "make nice".

Rockerchic, I understood that you were being sarcastic with the "soooo welcome" bit.

I will continue to disagree with the PETA group as far as their tactics go, but I still respect everyone's right to an opinion.

I'm considering a second career as an ombudsman. Unless I have to give up my addiction to pig pickin's.....

I have a lot of big goldfish in a water garden in the back yard, and they sort of turn me off of eating fish. Beautiful, peaceful things that they are.

But chickens? Chickens are nervous creatures. Not a brain in their heads, so far as I can tell. Can't hold a candle to a hawk.

Kay

[TarHeel]

Lisa: I do know there are a lot of great educational channels on t.v. But our local cable company has made finding any of them almost impossible! We are stuck with this "box" that sits on top of the t.v. and the programming changes by the week....my husband has one remote that works some of the time....we have about 15 remotes in a desk drawer that theoretically SHOULD work something, but heaven knows what.

I just rely on the internet these days for news and info.

I think I once caught some good shows on Animal Planet before our "box" changed channels. I'm pretty sure it was not a show where anyone slaughtered a chicken, however.

Cheers,

Kay

[fridayeyes]

Somewhere between the age of 9 and 12, mostly where boys are concerned, the contents of that bucket will become 'cool'. The most likely antics will include:

* stomping the packet to see it splatter
* water balloon fights
* Dracula imitations
* drinking it
* throwing the liquid on all and sundry, especially girls

While this may seem more amusing at first, it still denotes a mind that obviously isn't ready for this sort of 'creative presentation' of the cruelty issue.

Re: TV - IMHO, TV was/is a huge threat to literacy, but spell-check programs are worse. :D

Cheers,

Friday

[RockerChik]

Yeah, I was gonna mention that for the most part, it would be the male children who would seize the opportunity to strew around the phony chicken carnage.

For the record, I don't find the thought of these jolly hijinks "amusing" in the least. I see that I need to clarify and qualify or risk the ole' context twisting here..

The whole thing strikes me more as laughably IRONIC, in light of the overwhelming concerns expressed here of kids being severely scarred...and then the probable reality of many of them gleefully amusing themselves with the bloody mess and just not "getting it", or more accurately - not caring at all really.

[fridayeyes]

Context twisting? I didn't refer to you or PETA at all in my post, so I'm not sure why you're clarifying your position.

[Kristine]

Rockerchik, I hope you were just referring to this thread and not the forum in general about the unwelcome bit. That's why we have the War Zone area. PETA and the PCRM have given low carbers nothing but undeserved greif, so don't expect a lot of kindness toward those organizations or its supporters. Concern for animal welfare? Great. Using borderline terrorism and deliberate misinformation as their primary tactic in the name thereof? Nuh-uh.

[teresamay]

These crazed poeple are targeting children becuase they are the most vunerable and impressionable....any child handed a bucket like that would be traumatized for life...those sick disgusting maniacs should be arrested on the spot!

[teresamay]

You know, one more comment. My uncle is a butcher, he owns and operates a couple large slaughterhouses, and let me tell you, it is a VERY humane process, I know this for a fact, as I have been fully trained on the kill floor. Animals are treated with dignity - the fact is, they are a food source, and no vegetarian will ever understand that - especially radical vegetarian groups.

[RockerChik]

Hi, Kristine. No, I have found the LC forum to be a really great place that I try to visit every time I'm online. Of course, I realized that any type of thread concerning PETA had the potential of becoming explosive here in the war zone. I almost didn't come into this thread because I wasn't sure it would be worth it, and a few times I have questioned myself; "Why do I keep writing back on this thread? It's like banging my head against the wall. I'm waaay out-numbered here". But then I feel compelled to respond and be understood, and so I do. But I do recognize the fact that being understood here is proving to be more and more fruitless. As far as alot of you are concerned, I'M standing out infront of your kids' schools passin' out blood buckets. Simply not the case. There are gray areas in all situations as opposed to strictly black or white.

Anyhow, before I responded, this thread was pretty much everybody patting eachother on the back and responding similarly: "Those stupid freaks! I'll kick their butts if I see them! If they come near my kid I'll shove things up their you-know-what! (Hey, nice one! Real sweet! Now THAT'S what I call teachin' yer kids to make nice!) I'll force-feed those freaks greasy drumsticks after I beat them with it!" Etc., etc.

Do you know what I'm saying??? So I decided to shake things up a little bit from the other side of the fence. And I'm neither a terrorist or a freak. I'm just a staunch supporter of animal rights and a fairly recent convert to a non-meat-eating lifestyle. And I mouth off occasionally.

Anyhow, I think that's all I have to say about this, but who knows. Right now, I'm too sick to my stomach after seeing Bushie's little "funny" videotape on the news, mocking his endless search..."Where are them dang weaons of mass destruction? They just GOTS to be around here somewhere!" Am I the only person who finds this the most repulsive thing they've ever seen a president do?!!?!?!?? At a time like this?!?!? Can I ask you why this man is still in office at this moment?!?!?!?

[teresamay]

There is a big difference between being an animal supporter and being an extremist who terrorizes and traumatizes young children with their garbage! Nobody wants to see animals treated cruely in any circumstances, however, that doesn't give PETA the right to act in a manner like this - especially as they haven't provided any concrete proof of cruelty by KFC!

[RockerChik]

Like I previously said, nothing is all black or all white. You know what? On the whole "WE HATE EXTREMISTS - DOWN WITH EXTREMISTS" issue...something you might want to keep in mind is that it results from the fact that these so-called "extremists" are frustrated as holy hell and have been ignored and abused by the actual "terrorists" - the people who create and foster horrific conditions for innocent living creatures. Thus the need to make themselves heard in a more extreme manner. Bottom line, PETA is not guilty of torturing or murdering anybody or anything as far as I am aware. You really think some kid is gonna be SCARRED FOR LIFE by a stupid little bucket of fake-blood? That's really going too far and it is just not the case. Get real.

As for calling PETA "terrorists" - you guys are all using that word loosely and inappropriately as far as I am concerned.

[teresamay]

Darn right they would be - I have a two year old, and if she was handed a bucket with fake blood and bones and n told it was chickens - of COURSE she would be traumatized...young children do not have the ability to differentiate between fake and real, and when an "adult" is telling them this is real, they will automatically believe it!

Anyone who would INTENTIONALLY choose to go after innocent children as their focus rather than adults in my opinion is an extremist! Perhaps if they were rational in their attacks and approached things properly with ADULTS then they wouldn't have such a bad reputation.

[teresamay]

You know, I am guessing you don't have children - because a person who did would have a hell of a lot more compasssion and understanding of innocence!! I feel sorry for you!!

[RCFletcher]

I see they plan to try it in the UK. Ha! I'd like to see them try it round where I live.

The first one to try it on any kid in this area of the UK would find out the taste of real blood, their own from where a furious parent had just punched them in the face.

And scarred for life? Yes, I think it is possible.

[RockerChik]

Oof, you guessed wrong, sweetheart. But I have been WAITING for ANYbody in this happy thread to accuse me of being child-less :) Congratulations! You win the Veggie-burger!

Maybe re-read some of the past threads if you feel so inclined. You know, you should take it easy. By the way, what does your child THINK that you're cooking for dinner while you're hacking away on the ole' cutting board? Magical Meat? I'm sorry but you're making me laugh now with your supreme hoity-toidiness.

Please don't feel sorry for me - there's other living creatures that need your sympathy more.

Now sit down and have some green tea or something.

[Lisa N]

Now THAT'S what I call teachin' yer kids to make nice!

RockerChik...this isn't day care and it's not a playgroup that we're talking about here. There is a difference between teaching kids to get along with each other and teaching them to stand up for their beliefs as well as how to stand up to bullies. Quite frankly, there are times when "making nice" isn't going to cut it and I would think you'd know that given that you seem all for teaching kids the horrors of the reality of life in this world. And yes, the reality of what they are proposing is that some adults are likely to get agressive when someone tries to hand their kids propoganda they don't agree with.
No, my kids aren't likely to see me assault someone who is trying to force their opinion on me, but they will get an object lesson in assertively saying no, thank you.

Bottom line, PETA is not guilty of torturing or murdering anybody or anything as far as I am aware.

In that case, you might consider doing a little reasearch into the organizations and groups that PETA has allied itself with and supports; groups such as ALF, ELF and SHAC. ALF is considered a terrorist organization by our government; members of their group have bombed research facilities (and PETA contributed to their defense funds), not to mention vandalizing others and members of SHAC have made death threats and other threats against those that they disagree with. One of SHAC's members is a regular consultant to PETA. Ever hear the phrase "you're known by the company you keep"? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting the impression here that you either don't know what and who this group supports or you really do believe that violent means and death threats are justified in this issue.
Nobody here is saying that YOU are PETA or that YOU are going to be standing in front of KFC handing out buckets of fake blood to little kids. The comments here are against PETA and their tactics, not you personally.
Ever wonder why PETA is increasingly targeting children with their message? My take on that is because children are young and impressionable, don't tend to think for themselves, believe whatever an adult tells them and don't have the assertiveness (not to mention they've been taught it's rude and wrong) to tell an adult that they don't agree. In short, they're targeting a captive audience.

[Lisa N]

By the way, what does your child THINK that you're cooking for dinner while you're hacking away on the ole' cutting board? Magical Meat?

Nope...they know exactly which animals we get our meat from.

[Lisa N]

*tweet* referee whistle! :nono:

Folks, I realize that this is an emotional topic, but I need to remind everyone again of the forum rules. This may be the War Zone where debate and disagreement is allowed, but personal insults and flames are not part of that package here.
Please keep the debate to the topic at hand without getting personal.

[teresamay]

My daughter sees me putting meat in a broiler, oven etc, and knows I am cooking her dinner. I do not feel the need to throw a peice of bloody meat in her face and tell her it is a slaughtered bloody animal..or abuse her in any other way - the ways that PETA seems to think are normal. As a mother, her well being and safety are first, as well as maintaining her innocence..obviously you don't buy that type of parenting - would you really want your children exposed to those people, or come home crying becuase someone gave her a bucket of blood? You don't see "meat eaters" throwing steaks or vegetables at you do you?


again, why aren't they attacking adults rather than innocent children?

[RockerChik]

Hiya, LisaN. Ummm...well, I am not saying that we were discussing "daycare" here. Of course I realize that "making nice" is not gonna cut it! Why on earth do you think I would be a supporter of PETA if not for that very fact?

I have done research into all of the organizations whom I support. PETA, as far as I am concerned, IS an anti-terrorist organization. The fact that " they are considered a terrorist organization by our government" - our government? What's that supposed to mean to me? Sorry. I'm not touching that one.

I'm glad your kids know where they get their meat from, although I wasn't speaking to you per se`, LisaN. That's all well and fine and honestly, if they DO know that, then why would they not be relatively unscarred by the blood bucket thing display? I guess because by the time the meat gets to your kitchen, all the blood is cleaned up.

It's a personal choice, of course, but by the time your kids are school-age, you could always educate them just a wee bit about these types of organizations and what they are trying to do. NOTE THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE WITH THESE ORGANIZATION TO DO THIS. This way, in the event that they are exposed to a public display such as the BLOODY CHICKEN IN THE BUCKET, at the very LEAST, they will have some point of reference and I think you'd avoid undue trauma in the more sensitive child.

Of course, I look forward to all of your holier-than-thou, unyeilding responses.

[teresamay]

Look, I totally agree with you that people/kids should be aware of cruelty to animals, and educated in this etc...but in a positive and proactive way. I don't believe PETA is the resource for this, i think they are setting back their own cause with their actions. I mean, if my daughter decides one day to be a vegetarian, of course I would support her totally in that decision - but it should be out of her own awareness of the issues she believes in and not out of fear from PETA.

[Lisa N]

PETA, as far as I am concerned, IS an anti-terrorist organization. The fact that " they are considered a terrorist organization by our government" - our government? What's that supposed to mean to me? Sorry. I'm not touching that one.

You might want to re-read what I posted. I didn't say that PETA is considered a terrorist organization, but that they choose to associate with and support some organizations that are. Glad to hear you've researched PETA. How much do you know about ALF, ELF and SHAC, their associates and allies?

by the time your kids are school-age, you could always educate them just a wee bit about these types of organizations and what they are trying to do. NOTE THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE WITH THESE ORGANIZATION TO DO THIS. This way, in the event that they are exposed to a public display such as the BLOODY CHICKEN IN THE BUCKET, at the very LEAST, they will have some point of reference and I think you'd avoid undue trauma in the more sensitive child.

Hmmm..and how would you suggest parents do that in a way that the kids won't relate to themselves in K-4th grade?
You know...if my kids were raised on a farm where we butchered our own meat and they were accustomed to seeing such things, I probably wouldn't have much of a problem with it. They'd likely look at such a trinket and go..."So...what's your point?" But...kids who are not accustomed to seeing that are going to come away from something like that with a very different perception. PETA knows that most kids are not accustomed to seeing their food processed. In fact, they're counting on it.

[TarHeel]

Whoa! As I stated earlier, I do not in any way support PETA. However, the idea that a small child these days (or even in my day as a child reading the Lone Ranger comic books and watching Road Runner cartoons) being shocked and traumatized by a bag of fake blood is carrying things a bit too far. Consider Grimm's' fairy tales. Hansel and Gretel. Little Red Riding Hood. Consider the things available to kids today during Halloween season. We lived through them all. Few were "permanently traumatized" by them, though I can say I wish I had not seen "Dorothy and the Wizard of OZ" at a tender age.

And no, I don't have children either. I gave at the office. I was a psychoeducational therapist serving children with autism and their families for many years. I'm also a godmother to a number of friends' children. Their parents must consider me sane.

In spite of disagreeing with many things she believes, I have to admire RockerChic for expressing her opinion. And I think she has the right to express it here, without being considered a freak.

The best thing that has been written on this thread is the bit about children having to be taught the importance of love and compassion in order to abhor cruelty later in life. They cannot be shielded from everything for long.

Rocker Chic, I don't know, and don't really want to know, what "information", aside from the bones and fake bag of blood the kids were to be given, but the one thing that worries me is that some children may be given the message that "Your parents are cruel and inhuman idiots to feed you KFC". To undermine the parents in that way to the kids, even if it should be scientifically true, is just wrongety, wrongety. (reference to my favorite New Yorker cartoon).

Kay

[Lisa N]

Rocker Chic, I don't know, and don't really want to know, what "information", aside from the bones and fake bag of blood the kids were to be given, but the one thing that worries me is that some children may be given the message that "Your parents are cruel and inhuman idiots to feed you KFC". To undermine the parents in that way to the kids, even if it should be scientifically true, is just wrongety, wrongety. (reference to my favorite New Yorker cartoon).

This was part of what I referred to earlier when I stated that I could say a lot more about PETA's tactics from a parental standpoint, especially when it comes to promoting their agenda to kids (and it's not just about animal cruelty, either...they want world-wide veganism and an end to meat eating, period).
If they want to make kids aware of animal cruelty, fine (although there are a couple of pretty good shows on Animal Planet that do already that my kids watch, Animal Precinct being one of them). But when they start to imply to my kids that I'm wrong and committing some terrible act by feeding them meat, they've crossed a boundary that they have no right to cross.
As an adult, it's a bit of a stretch to make that leap from a bucket of fake blood and chicken bones to the message that KFC is cruel to their chickens. Yup...there's blood and bones when you slaughter chickens. How does that show me that it's being done in an inhumane way? Is a kid really going to get that message, given that we've already established that children under the age of 12 or 13 don't think abstractly in that fashion and are not cognitively capable of making that kind of logical leap? I agree that they are more likely to come away from it with the message that their parents are doing something terrible by eating at and taking them to KFC.
Uh oh...now the message has gone from "KFC is cruel to their chickens" to "Your parents are cruel for taking you to KFC". :rolleyes:

[fridayeyes]

IMHO, while I am aginst PETA in general and this campaign in particular, I too was unsettled by the mentions of physical violence a la "stick it you know where." While these are probably in the category of figurative exaggerations, even as such, I don't think those kinds of actions would be a good or healthy response either.

Rockr - I see direct insults flung from you as a person as us as people ("all of your holier-than-thou responses"). While you may not be the only one doing it, you are certainly the pot who calls the kettle black with regard to things like hostile tone, insults and judgemental comments. Perhaps your tactics simply reflect your agreement with PETA's use of shock to 'wake people up." Taking this thread as a microcosm, however, you can see that it tends to generate more heat than light.

Torture and murder? I have no evidence for that. Unrepentant, inappropriate advertising to children - yes. And, IMHO, the ol' throwing paint on women in furs bit constitutes battery. I also feel that targeting women and children has very nasty implications with regard to current and historical trends in oppression.

As for the targeting of children, I see the strategy more as a desire hurt KFC financially. Parents will avoid the restaurant to protect their children and/or avoid the whole issue. A civil call for a boycott and an educational campaign (e.g leafletting) would probably get less media attention and have a lesser economic impact. Such measures would likely have a much greater chance of long-term success if consciousness raising was indeed the goal. As others have stated, since PETA would like to see (virtually) all consumption of animal products stopped, I do not believe that consciousness raising is indeed their goal.

There is a long-standing tradition of civil disobedience in this county, but both the ethics and success of any such movement hinge on the word 'civil'.

Cheers,

Friday

[RockerChik]

I'll share a story about myself, and you can all make of it what you will.

When I was about 5 or 6 years old, there was a woman named Kris who lived next door to my family. She took the time to teach me all about animals. She let me walk and feed her dog, she educated me to the fact that all creatures had feelings and emotions and that they were not to be mis-treated in any way. I loved and respected this woman and was grateful for the knowledge and compassion that she instilled in me.

One day, as she an I were walking her dog around the block, I noticed that another neighbor's dog was missing from their yard. I couldn't help but notice, as I pet this dog every day in my travels. I said to Kris: "I wonder where Bucky is today? He's always by the fence." And Kris sadly but gently told me that Bucky had been dog-napped from his own yard and that the owners were devastated. I asked: "What will happen to him now?" And she told me that he would, hopefully, be sold to a new family where he would be happy. But she also said that there were bad people in the world who might sell Bucky to a laboratory to do tests on. Yes, she told me this. And she said: "Animals cannot defend themselves. They are at our mercy and are so innocent in this world filled with people. It's up to us to help them and make sure that they don't get hurt. Always help them when you can and you will make the world a better place."

I was speechless with horror and sadness and fear for all the Bucky's in this world. I'll never forget that feeling - I can feel it right NOW as I type these words. I was not happy with this knowledge at 5 years of age. I had nightmares. I couldn't even cry about it and I couldn't speak about it with my own family. I couldn't walk past Bucky's yard without feeling sick - even after a new puppy replaced Bucky there. It was almost worse seeing the new puppy. I'm not sure what my mother would have thought about this "outsider" telling her little daughter this horror story. In all probability, I'm sure she'd have been less than thrilled.

But there is no doubt that this incident shaped me. It affected me in such a way that I am the person who I am today, and for that I am grateful to this woman, Kris, for making the impression that she did on me.

I am driven and passionate about the plight of animals. Immediately following the above incident, I actively volunteered for animal rescue, helping to foster and find homes for lost, abused or sick cats, dogs, birds, squirrels, pigs, mice - really, you name it. Of course I am still involved in animal rescue and cannot imagine my life without it. Despite my exposure to alot of senseless cruelty (which can really wear me down at times), my volunteer work still gives me a feeling of such accomplishment and joy that I would not trade it for a million dollars.

I'm a musician and whenever I can, I hold concerts to raise money for animal rescue organizations and I feel blessed at being given my gifts so that I may be able to do so.

I am not sure what any of you will make of this story, but I felt like telling it to you.

[gtarent]

Of course, I look forward to all of your holier-than-thou, unyeilding responses.

Now who is being adversarial? :nono:

The fact is many feel eating meat is inhumane and morally wrong. Many disagree and feel eating meat is not morally reprehensible. These two groups will never agree with each other... The only gray area is what people consider humane treatment of these "food" animals.
I personally question the need of strangers trying to shock children into believing what their orginization believes is right. Children should not be the target of these campaigns. I would be just as upset if another orginization used similar tactics. I happen to be anti-abortion, I would be quire angry with the right to life orginization if they targeted children with bloody dolls to raise awareness. I also don't appreciate it when religious groups scare my children with visions of hell, because we go to a different church than them.

I guess the whole point of my rambling is their are issues that people who feel strongly one way or another will never agree on, even after debate.
Religion
Abortion
and I guess now whether targeting kids for awareness is moral.
Debate until the cows come home... noone is going to change their position.

[RockerChik]

Friday, is that your real name? That is a great name if it's your real name. :) If not, still a pretty good nickname~!

I have been made to feel defensive in this thread, so I got bitchy. I'll never be accused of hiding my feelings - here they are!!

And honestly, what's wrong with being called "holier than thou" if some of you ARE coming off that way? Why is everybody jumping all over THAT? "Holier than thou" - oh, wow! It really seems like you're just lookin' to find fault. But, ok. And if you don't feel that you ARE coming off that way, then it shouldn't even phase you.

Friday, I think that the reason that PETA over-steps what some might consider "civil boundaries" is rooted in the chronic grief and frustration they experience while trying to be heard. After awhile, it's like: "Ok, gloves are OFF." It's a shame. I'm not saying it's a GOOD way to conduct themselves, but I can certainly understand the frustration factor.

[Lisa N]

And honestly, what's wrong with being called "holier than thou" if some of you ARE coming off that way? Why is everybody jumping all over THAT?

What's wrong with that is that it violates the forum rules regarding personal insults and flames; something that a warning has been posted about at least twice in this thread already.

Below is a link to the forum rules:
http://forum.lowcarber.org/register.php?s=&do=showrules

[TarHeel]

I give up. I'm out of here. I'm a forum friend of Scott (Kyra's dad) who originally started this thread, but he seems to have wisely left the building.

To me, the lack of response Rockerchick (what ever) has provided to the few of us even VAGUELY supporting her position is enough to convince me that PETA supporters are not very polite people. And I know. There is no requirement for advocates to be polite. But boy, does it help their cause!

Kay

[teresamay]

ok, rockerChik...that was a heck of a beginning - I totally understand how that could be so impressionable...but look how much it affected you and shaped your views at that tender young age. Now imagine yourself back at 5 years old,nad having a group of protesters throw a bucket to you full of blood (that you don't know is fake) and bones and tell you how horrible KFC and "animal killers/eaters" are...that would have easily traumatized and shaped your beliefs as it would for many children.

I have no issues with people protecting animals from cruelty - no animal should ever have to suffer, however, that siad, animals are a food source for many of us - even htough you don't eat them, a lot of others do, and that needs to be respected, even if not agreed with. There are a lot of decent places that do slaughter animals in a very humane way. I can personally vouch for that.

I think what I am hearing you say is that you are totally dedicated to protecting animals from abuse, which is admirable! You just need to realize though that there are some of us who are not vegans, who never will be, and we are not bad people for enjoying eating meat. And corporations are not all guilty of cruelty. i have yet to see any proof that KFC is involved in this.

[teresamay]

ps...I would like to apologize tothe whole forumn - I have not been overly kind on this topic, and I should not have spoken so harshly to anyone about it.

[RCFletcher]

I just found this:

http://www.american-partisan.com/cols/2003/gibson/qtr3/0903.htm

That's right, this warm fuzzy bastion of animal rights kills every once beloved family pet who has the misfortune of being carried through PETA's doors. People take animals to PETA instead of local shelters because they believe that they will be placed into a home and will not be put down. Unlike local animal shelters, PETA doesn't even bother trying to find homes for these pets. All of them are killed within a few hours. In fact, PETA has gone through several area vets, and they refused to euthanize healthy animals. Finally PETA constructed their own facilities for this practice.

Any comments?

[Lisa N]

Friday, I think that the reason that PETA over-steps what some might consider "civil boundaries" is rooted in the chronic grief and frustration they experience while trying to be heard. After awhile, it's like: "Ok, gloves are OFF." It's a shame. I'm not saying it's a GOOD way to conduct themselves, but I can certainly understand the frustration factor.

I agree that their tactics are largely not "good", frustration level being high or not. Once again, the ends do not justify the means.
I don't think anyone posting in this thread is in favor of cruelty to animals. In fact, I'd wager that to a person, most of us are very much against it, but neither are they in favor of the tactics that PETA and organizations like them are using to promote awareness and prevent cruelty to animals. There are far better ways to get their message out than by shocking and alienating their intended audience.

[Lisa N]

I just found this:

http://www.american-partisan.com/cols/2003/gibson/qtr3/0903.htm

That's right, this warm fuzzy bastion of animal rights kills every once beloved family pet who has the misfortune of being carried through PETA's doors. People take animals to PETA instead of local shelters because they believe that they will be placed into a home and will not be put down. Unlike local animal shelters, PETA doesn't even bother trying to find homes for these pets. All of them are killed within a few hours. In fact, PETA has gone through several area vets, and they refused to euthanize healthy animals. Finally PETA constructed their own facilities for this practice.

Any comments?

Robert...if this is really true, I'm absolutely speechless. Euthanizing an ill animal who is suffering is one thing, ending an animal's life because it is a source of food is another. Even euthanizing an animal for which no home can be found, I can understand (although I don't like it and have adopted animals from the local shelter instead of purchasing them from a pet store for that reason alone) but this....I'm speechless.

[Lisa N]

http://www.furcommission.com/resource/perspect999ag.htm

This article seems to corroborate the above and gives sources for the information, including Ingrid Newkirk herself.

[fridayeyes]

I haven't read those articles, and I'm definitely not in favor of euthanizing healthy animals. For a further caveat, I'm not even taking a stand on whether or not I think it's true, but...

There are some who believe that domestication of animals at all is equivalent to abuse. Selective breeding (which can cause unhealthy attributes along with the 'desired' ones'), tail and/or ear docks, confining them inside, etc. Removing any animal from its natural state is sometimes seen as wrong. Some people also feel that zoos are immoral and abusive.

While I don't agree with this view myself, it might permit a more sympathetic view of euthanizing pets (who are abused, genetically manipulated aberrations that should never have existed) if these ideas are part of PETA's beleif system.

Keep in mind that I do not know whetehr or not PETA holds these beliefs, but it might do a bit to explain such a practice if indeed it exists.

Cheers,

Friday

[RD64]

This article points out what I said in another topic. That PETA is a whacko organization bent on humans not eating meat period! They feel that animals should have domain over the planet and not humans. They're not worth the ink to write about them. They also use non legal ways to get their point across. The gov't should go after these lawbreakers.

[Lisa N]

The gov't should go after these lawbreakers.

They do. The thing is, that because most of the offenses are misdemeanors, most of the time they get off with a slap on the wrist or a fine (which I'm sure that their organizations are happy to pay for them). In one of the links above, even PETA's current leader estimates that she has been arrested "40 or 50 times". :rolleyes:
PETA says that it draws the line at physical violence and yet they associate with and support groups that do not which leads me to think that they believe that encouraging and supporting such activity is fine as long as they aren't actually doing it themselves.

[jagbender]

I love P.E.T.A. As a matter of fact I am the President of the local chapter!
People for the Eating of Tasty Animals.
Where's the Beef, Chicken, Pork and Venison?

Jag

[Quinadal]

You too!? :p

I love P.E.T.A. As a matter of fact I am the President of the local chapter!
People for the Eating of Tasty Animals.
Where's the Beef, Chicken, Pork and Venison?

Jag

[RCFletcher]

Hi Liza N,
I really don't know if it's true I was just quoting the website I found it on. We don't have PETA in the UK (to my knowledge). Thank God. We do have our share of nutters though. Some years ago one lot firebombed a dept store near my hometown because they were selling furs. The store burned to the ground. Fortunatly it was at night and no one was killed.
Here the RSPCA also kills healthy pets if it cannot find a home for then within a given time. It uses electrocution - cheaper than an injection.

[LondonIan]

Since this thread has poped up as being alive again. Can I just make the comment that I hope Rockerchiks disappearance from membership is not connected with this thread. I didn't agree with her views, but I am rather surprised that anyone here found the - or the way she expressed them - offensive or unconsidered.

[tamarian]

Can I just make the comment that I hope Rockerchiks disappearance from membership is not connected with this thread.

When you see a membe's title listed "Guest", it's due to an explicit request by the member to "unsubscribe" them from our forum.

Wa'il

[Ghuldeen]

What I think is really entertaining is that Rockerchick still eats fish. Does she suppose that being pulled up from the depths of the ocean and having your eyes pop out due to the pressure change or slowing gasping to try and breath oxygen is in any way even remotely humane. I'm not even going to get started on fish farms. Just because they're not cute and fluffy does that mean that you don't object to eating them? Go out on a fishing trawler some time and watch as they gut and cut off the fishes heads while they're still breathing.

One of the sickest things I've seen PETA do was in Vancouver where they had a serial killer. This killer solicited prostitues and when he was done with them, fed them to his pigs. PETA put up billboard equating his victims to the pigs. How do you think this made family members feel? How would you feel if one of your loved ones had been raped, savagely killed and was equated to the level a pig? Some organization you've got there.

I'm all in favor of treating animals in an ethical manner. Some of the mass farming systems being introduced are having several effects on not just the animals, but the environment and the lives of people trying to survive in running a family farm. If PETA was actually only interested in that I would probably support them, but their underlying agenda will always make them unacceptable to the masses and traumatizing kids is not going to change that.

[LondonIan]

A friend of mine once wisely said that we should not expect revolutionaries to be moderate. I have no time for PETA, its 'ruler-for-life' seems to be one of those people Colin Wilson called 'Right Men' ( or Right Women' this time) who can't abide being questioned or challenged.
Doesn't rule out animal activism as worthwhile and ethical stance.
BTW fish don't count - they are slimey.