On the Offensive

[wizzle]

Don't read this if you are not a low carber. Don't reply.

I'm frigging sick and tired of hearing about meals dripping in sugar and starches as "healthy" just because they are low fat. So I've gone on the offensive on boards such as foodnetwork.com. I'm not nasty. I mearly describe the recipe I provide as "low carb and healthy."

Let's face it, we are all somewhat brainwashed by continually hearing about "healthy" low fat eating. How many times do we get a chance to say, yeah?? says who??

It's time to fight back!!! Every time you post a great tasting LC recipe...call it healthy. Every time you hear about a "healthy" starch sensation....well...you decide. We all have our style of saying "it just ain't so."

[tamarian]

Healthy And Balanced :)

Wa'il

[PaulaB]

What i don't get is if you eat steak and chips you are eating a healthy "balanced" meal. Eat steak and salad you are eating an unhealthy diet and probably not enough fibre!

[tholian8]

Ever notice that the "recommended" amount of fiber is very nearly impossible to eat without consuming grains or fiber supplements? Makes you go hmmmmm....

[ItsTheWooo]

Bravo wizzle!

The other day I was watching the fitness channel. They happened to have a show featuring a guy who wanted to get in shape for a boating, and so they set him up with a dietician. I could tell just by looking at her she was a complete low-fad drone, and she soon proved I was absolutely right. She said she was going to start him right away on eating more grains and complex carbs. She then proceeded to fix him a meal with zero fat, zero animal protein (and not much in the way of veggie protein either), loaded with high glycemic and high carb food like corn and garbanzo beans. She asked him what he thought of the meal, and he responded "it is loaded with carbs". She responded to that "but it's healthy, good carbs". He then tasted, and said he could definitely live with it.

I turned the TV off at this point, because I knew the guy (who was apple shapped and likely had some degree of insulin problems) was being lied to and would probably have done way better on carb control.

Tell me. Why is it considered healthy and balanced to eat a bucket of sugar (corn and legumes) with no major or minor antioxidants, no fat, and almost no protein, but eating the exact opposite meal is said to give you a heart attack?

VERY frustrating indeed.

[black57]

Whatever affects insulin in a negative way will also affect cholesterol and triglycerides in a negative way. Whatever affects insulin in a negative way will also cause heart disease. Carbs and sugars affect insulin in a negative way. Therefore fat does not make you fat.

[Frederick]

What I still don't get is how grains have become a nutrition star? It barely has any nutrients. Yet, every dietician, nutritionist or whatever out there keeps saying, "eat grains."

Am I missing something? What is so nutritious about grains?

[Grimalkin]

That's a good question. As any botanist knows, these are primarily starch. I think the answer has to do with ideology more than science.

Realistically, I can't see them questioning the value of their precious grains until sometime after they finally get over the "fat-is-bad" myth. And we see how much resistance remains to THAT.

[kyrasdad]

If you get right down to it, didn't grains become a staple because they are inexpensive compared to animal-based diets, not necessarily better for you? An acre of grains can produce more calories less expensively than an acre of grazing animals. It was probably more about feeding populations less expensively than it was feeding them better.

At this point, it's about economics of course. It's just that the nutritionist community is still pretty dogmatic. The medical community is really coming around in my opinion, since they're closer to the results of low carb diets than nutritionists are.

[conbom]

Why don't the agribusinesses that are so worried about being able to sell their crops just feed it to the animals and let us eat the animals in peace. I know, I know. Not enough of a mark-up!

[K Walt]

"Why don't the agribusinesses that are so worried about being able to sell their crops just feed it to the animals and let us eat the animals in peace. I know, I know. Not enough of a mark-up!"

Oddly enough, none of our basic food animals are actually designed to eat grain. Grazing animals, for example, will thrive naturally on grass, and during part of the year, on whatever seeds the grasses may produce. But NO grazing animal ever eats just pure seeds (grains). And corn? How would a cow eat corn, unless we ran it through a harvester and machinery first to strip off the kernels?

In fact, I don't know of any animals (mice? voles? rats?) who would eat PRIMARILY grains in their natural habitat.

Go to a health food store, or to Whole Foods sometime and check out the UNGROUND wheat 'berries' as they call them. Try to eat a handful of them. Like eating woodchips or stones. Doesn't sound like a natural human food to me. You have to do all sorts of soaking, fermenting, pounding, cooking, and fussing to make them edible at all.

[adkpam]

They do fuss a lot about "whole grains" when hardly anyone eats them. Who boils up bulgur for breakfast? How much whole wheat is in that "whole wheat" bread? And how much whole grain is in the pasta and rice that is a mainstay of that famous pyramid?
So the original, idealized, idea behind low fat that was people would eat more whole grains and vegetables, only NO ONE DID.
This idealized diet is what they are pushing. The ultimate expression of it is Dean Ornish's plan. However, in studies the Ornish plan doesn't work as well at Atkins does.
And I can say from the experience of a close friend who tried Ornish, Atkins is a lot easier to stick to.
But in their minds, Atkin's can't work. They would have to let go of what they have been told for years.
And a lot of people can't do that.

[nikkil]

whoever pushes grains must believe "if it tastes bad, it must be good for you"

Perfect example: wild rice :Puke:

:lol: :lol: :lol: Give me a steak and green beans dripping in butter ANYTIME :lol: :lol:

[Kristine]

>>"They do fuss a lot about "whole grains" when hardly anyone eats them. Who boils up bulgur for breakfast?"

Yeah! One thing that kills me is that nutritionists yell, "whole grains!" and then push whole wheat bread, etc. Hell-OH: the "whole" in whole grain means "in one piece." If it's been ground into flour, it's not whole!

[Karen]

What I don't get is that many people seem to value the "extreme virtue" - to the point of being diefied - of grains above valuing the nutrition of vegetables and protein.

It must be all this "staff of life" stuff that's been in our faces for years along with the low-faD trend.

I'm with nikkil. A nice lamb chop with some green beans is where it's at!

Karen

[Grimalkin]

Actually, I think "whole grain" refers to leaving in all parts of the grain - like the bran and germ - which get stripped out in refining. Refined grains are pure endosperm - starch.

Nikkil, that wild rice is one of the few grains I miss, I loved that stuff!

[K Walt]

Willet -- the guy of Harvard fame -- actually recommends that the term 'whole grain' be reserved only for intact kernel. And there is actually VERY little you can buy that remains that way.

Yes, whole wheat bread or pasta does contain some of the nutrients of the 'whole' grain, but the glycemic index isn't all that different from the white stuff. It shoots up blood glucose almost as much. It's a lot like refined flour with some sawdust mixed in.

[NotSoFast]

What about everything in moderation? High protein/low carb is not for everyone!

[Dean4Prez]

What about everything in moderation? High protein/low carb is not for everyone!
But the low-fat and vegan pundits are telling everyone that low carb is not for ANYONE. If they have their way, what are you going to eat on your Protein Power plan -- tofu?

[mollymom]

I don't miss the pasta, or the rice, and I can live without breakfast cereal, crackers, cookies, popcorn etc. but I still miss bread....I loved bread, I don't mean styrofoam Wonderbread, I mean...gorgeous, lucious, crunchy, sunflower and multigrain bread right out of the oven, and baguettes, and panini, and farmer's rye and ..oops sorry...did someone say lamb chops? Green beans...bread..what bread!

[NotSoFast]

Mollymom...I guess it depends on what program you are doing. Bread can be o.k. (I know I am going to get blasted for this)...but you have to include it in your carbs....what about the new low carb breads...they are not too bad. I am in phase 2 of P.P. and I allow myself once slice of a low carb or 12 grain bread once in a while. And Dean4Prez...what is wrong with tofu....I also eat a lot of bison, chicken (skinless), pork etc....

[mollymom]

I do have bread...finally our grocery got in the Dempster's Low Carb Whole Wheat...6 net carbs per slice. (I eat one slice a day and a sandwich once a week) It is good for putting stuff between or on LOL. I never ate stuff like sliced bread...but I could go through a whole baguette with sweet butter and jam in an evening if I was on a real binge. Hmmm wonder how I ended up in these forums. I was never a sweet eater, I was a bread eater...not chocolate, but cheese...we all had our downfalls..mine was bread...sigh

[ItsTheWooo]

I don't miss the pasta, or the rice, and I can live without breakfast cereal, crackers, cookies, popcorn etc. but I still miss bread....I loved bread, I don't mean styrofoam Wonderbread, I mean...gorgeous, lucious, crunchy, sunflower and multigrain bread right out of the oven, and baguettes, and panini, and farmer's rye and ..oops sorry...did someone say lamb chops? Green beans...bread..what bread!
The arnold low carb multigrain bread is quite delicious and only 6 grams for a slice.

[Aetheana]

The funniest thing about this whole grain thing is cereals. I was in the grocery store the other day and i walked past a huge display of cocoa puffs with WHOLE GRAIN touted in gigantic letters. I immediately burst out laughing.

MMMmmmm Cocoa Puffs as a health food... life is good. ;)

I proclaimed loudly to my fiancee that anyone who thought cocoa puffs was healthy was smoking something and a nice woman walked past who started laughing as well. she said, 'yep, its better to just stay away from the stuff'

it made my day. :)

[scthgharpy]

Im looking right now at a box of cereal my cube mate has on her wall: Peanut Butter Toast Crunch -WHOLE GRAIN! She also has her quaker oatmeal squares, which she likes cuz "they make her poop". These arent so bad. And hard for me to yell at her cuz shes like 25 and super skinny. And from singapore. What can you do?

I gave her the readers digest version of how it works, and she eats more eggs, meats and cheese now-and finds shes not hungry anymore, likes it a lot.

Interesingly enough, the label reads like this: 23 g carb, 1g fiber (so much for whole grain) 10g sugar and 12g "OTHER CARBOHYDRATE. What could that be? What other kind is there?

[ovenDC]

I know that I eat grains on a daily basis. Probably not the kind I should have, but it's hard to find quality grains. I don't think humans are supposed to eat grains either, but it does serve the purpose of fiber. However, vegetables can do that as well...but I could never give up grains completely. I like Grape Nuts cereal:

Total Carb 47g, Dietary Fiber 6g, Sugars 5g, "other" carb 36g...but I look past that and see: Vit. A 15%, Iron 90% Folic Acid 50%, Vit. B12 25% etc...

As you can tell, I only have this cereal when I'm in a hurry, and when my daily calorie intake allows it.

[scthgharpy]

Theres a difference between grapenuts and all bran vs cocoa puffs and honeycombs. HUGE! I dont think anyone can imagine comparing the two as equally healthy.

I still wanna know what these "other" carbs are.

[Rosebud]

I still wanna know what these "other" carbs are.
Probably starches. :)

Rosebud:rose:

[stephiewil]

I feel so much better on low carb and I know my body loves it. The pain and numbness in my hands and feet, which can be just awful, goes away after about two weeks, day 19 now and pain is pretty much gone. I have only one problem with low carb, constipation. I have tried flax seed but it gave me gas so bad I was bloated and in severe pain, wont' touch the stuff. I have to admit when on a high fiber diet my body did much better that way lol !!But I just cannot eat that much grains. I am working on getting my veggies up and allow myself one slice a day of a bread I buy in the health food store called bran for life. It has five grams of fiber and 17 carbs before the fiber is deducted. Other than veggies and the carbs in eggs, this is the only carbs I get now and it makes my breakfast more pleasant and my body seems a bit happier. If it causes the pain in my hands to come back, out it goes. I have only been doing it a few days, so we will see. It is a very small slice of bread, but I am still testing it out on a partial loaf I had in the freezer, if I do not like my weight loss or I find the pain coming back, I will not ever buy it again. Low carb is my way of life now, and I will not do anything that will mess with it. Diabetes runs in my family and it is when not if but when I will get it, if I do not stay on track. After numerous attempts, this is the keeper. I have made the decision that this is how i have to eat and I there is no options. When I crave something I can't have, I eat something I can have and forget about it. I feel that it is a decision I made and I will stick with it. I am worth the commitment.
I do feel that grains cause a lot of havic in our bodies, my husband cannot eat any wheat he gets very severe heartburn if he eats if for any extended periods, so he was already avoiding it, so going full low carb was no stretch for him.He is happier too.
It is hard as we are raised as children on so many bad carbs, breakfast cerials, pop tarts, peanut butter and jelly, mac and cheese, just to name a few. Let alone the fast food and convience frozen foods. How many people live on those these days. Have you seen the ice cream isle lately, it is insane how many ways they try to get you !!! Cookie isle, same way. I know when I was not eating low carb, I ate a lot of that junk. I ate very little healthy food. I either eat healthy and low carb, or I did not eat healthy at all. I am choosing healthy and low carb for the rest of my life !!! Stephie

[shuggar]

What I don't get is that many people seem to value the "extreme virtue" - to the point of being diefied - of grains above valuing the nutrition of vegetables and protein.

It must be all this "staff of life" stuff that's been in our faces for years along with the low-faD trend.

I'm with nikkil. A nice lamb chop with some green beans is where it's at!

Karen

A very good point Karen and one that is often hard for me to reconcile. Grain is a strong symbol in the Catholic religion and as most Catholics know, its even embrodered into the Eucharist cloth, etc...
(before anyone responds, I am not speaking of the transubstantiation. I understand and recieve .)
Its that its always been such a holy and virtius symbol to me, the grain/bread.

[ysabella]

shuggar, what an interesting point about grains, I didn't know that. Isn't fish supposed to be eaten on Fridays, for Catholics? When I worked in some countries like France and Belgium, where a lot of people are Catholic, they always had a fish dish available on Fridays (and, frankly, that usually made the cafeteria smell awful). Anyway, that rule isn't a bad one, healthwise.

Regarding breakfast cereals, the really funny thing is that the worst ones aren't the kiddie Sugar Toasted Smack Puffs or whatever. It's the supposedly healthy adult-oriented cereals like Honey Bunches of Oats that pack the biggest wallop of sugar.

[shuggar]

shuggar, what an interesting point about grains, I didn't know that. Isn't fish supposed to be eaten on Fridays, for Catholics? When I worked in some countries like France and Belgium, where a lot of people are Catholic, they always had a fish dish available on Fridays (and, frankly, that usually made the cafeteria smell awful). Anyway, that rule isn't a bad one, healthwise.


Well, nowadays, most Catholics do this only on Ash Wed and Fridays during Lent. Its actually still part of the religion, to choose to not eat flesh on Fridays as an act of penance and to observe/do homage to, Christ suffering and dying on a Friday. Its now for each person to decide for themselves what to do, except for during Lent.
Its actually more detailed than I'll go into, than eating fish, its an abstinence/fasting day. Once I married, my dh impressed upon me the way he was always taught, was to observe not only by not eating flesh, but to eat smaller amounts and stay away from any of his most favorite foods.

[Vince3325]

I don't miss the pasta, or the rice, and I can live without breakfast cereal, crackers, cookies, popcorn etc. but I still miss bread....I loved bread, I don't mean styrofoam Wonderbread, I mean...gorgeous, lucious, crunchy, sunflower and multigrain bread right out of the oven, and baguettes, and panini, and farmer's rye and ..oops sorry...did someone say lamb chops? Green beans...bread..what bread!

Touyfino low carb pita bread is amazing, 7g of net carbs, all the rest is fiber and it has 11g of protien and 90 cals

[Dodger]

Theres a difference between grapenuts and all bran vs cocoa puffs and honeycombs. HUGE! I dont think anyone can imagine comparing the two as equally healthy.

I still wanna know what these "other" carbs are.

Grape Nuts (per 100g)
Calores 359
Fat 2g
Carbs 81g
Fiber 9g
Sugar 12g
Net Carbs 72g
Protein 11g

Honeycomb (per 100g)
Calories 395
Fat 2g
Carbs 89g
Fiber 3g
Sugar 38g
Net Carbs 86
Protein 5g

Both are really high in carbs. I consider both to be unhealthy.

[Vince3325]

seeing that one has 3xs the sugar i would say its less healthy. carbs aren't unhealthy , refined carbs are.

[steveed]

If a carb blocks you're ability to lose unhealthy fat, whether it's refined or not, it is unhealthy, insomuch that it is impeding your progress. If you are at your best weight and plan on expending the amount of carb energy you take in, in some form of exertion. By all means, proceed.

(keeping in mind of course, to know your limits and where your "slippery slope" is)

[Dodger]

seeing that one has 3xs the sugar i would say its less healthy. carbs aren't unhealthy , refined carbs are.

All carbs become glucose in the body. The body doesn't know the source of the carbs. Sugar and flour are the same as far as the effect on blood sugar. Both cereals have only a small amount of fiber, the carb that doesn't get turned into glucose because it isn't digested.

By comparison, 100g of broccoli
Calories 35
Fat 0g
Carbs 7g
Fiber 3g
Sugar 1g
Net Carbs 4g
Protein 2g

[runnr]

Why don't the agribusinesses that are so worried about being able to sell their crops just feed it to the animals and let us eat the animals in peace. I know, I know. Not enough of a mark-up!

Actually, we don't have enough land in the world to support the entire population of the world on a higher meat, lower grain diet. Mile for mile, grain is a more efficient use of land for the same amount of calories

[scthgharpy]

I would like to have seen, on that show, the guy a month later totally blowing his new "diet" and pigging out at macdonalds.

Yes, I TOTALLY am up for evangelizing low carb recipes as "healthy"!

[Lisa N]

Actually, we don't have enough land in the world to support the entire population of the world on a higher meat, lower grain diet. Mile for mile, grain is a more efficient use of land for the same amount of calories

We probably have a lot more land capable of grazing animals that is not suitable for grain agriculture than you think. It's not necessarily a matter of turning farmable land into grazing pasture for cattle, but making use of the land that is not suitable for farming by allowing ruminants to graze on it. ;)

[Kagior]

We probably have a lot more land capable of grazing animals that is not suitable for grain agriculture than you think. It's not necessarily a matter of turning farmable land into grazing pasture for cattle, but making use of the land that is not suitable for farming by allowing ruminants to graze on it. ;)

Also, cycling the land for different ruminants would help, too. The different herd creatures that we eat and don't eat chew different levels of the grass. Some prefer long grass, some new shoots, some mid level grasses, etc. Coming up with a better way to rotate the land use would definitely work better than trying to forcefeed everyone grains.

[steveed]

Agriculture vs. Animal Husbandry


scroll down to myth #1, rinse, wash, repeat.

http://www.powerhealth.net/selected_articles.htm

[potatofree]

No offense, and not saying I don't believe the article as a whole, but I'd really need to see some substantiation of the link between her vegetarian diet and miscarriage...

[CindySue48]

I've been doing a similar thing on some of the health boards....especially the ones for seniors. I've been posting articles and opinions about lowering carb intake, eating only natural healthy fats without concern if they're saturated or not, encouraging veggies and fruit over juices, etc. It's funny how many people are commenting positively and sometimes even adding their own like opinions! I'm starting to wonder if there are more "closet low carbers" out there than we realize! lol

The other thing....again, especially on the senior boards....I remind people how a scant 30 yrs ago corn was said to have "no nutritional value whatsoever" and now was almost a wonder food.....and that our parents and grandparents all lives to relatively long healthy lives eating natural fats, mostly saturated....and of course I also make note that in my opinion, based on observations over the years, that diabetes complications have skyrocketed since the ADA got the idea that sugar was not a problem back in the 90's!

[runnr]

It's not necessarily a matter of turning farmable land into grazing pasture for cattle, but making use of the land that is not suitable for farming by allowing ruminants to graze on it

First of all, if everyone switched to a higher meat-protein diet, we would not have enough land. Period. The article that quickly states that 2/3 of the Earths land is unsuitable for farming is failing to point out that most of that land is found in northern climates, and it would not be suitable for grazing either.

[Dodger]

It seems obvious to me that humans have over populated the world.

[ItsTheWooo]

Grape Nuts (per 100g)
Calores 359
Fat 2g
Carbs 81g
Fiber 9g
Sugar 12g
Net Carbs 72g
Protein 11g

Honeycomb (per 100g)
Calories 395
Fat 2g
Carbs 89g
Fiber 3g
Sugar 38g
Net Carbs 86
Protein 5g

Both are really high in carbs. I consider both to be unhealthy.

Yea but in volume, the "healthy adult" cereals have way more energy (carbs). 100 g of grape nuts is not even a cup. Pour out a cup of grapenuts and put it in a bowl. You are now looking at 390 calories and 80 carbs, and a rather modest portion size. Ridiculous.

100g of honeycombs is (I just calculated) 4.6 cups. That is a tremendous amount of food. You would need a salad bowl to eat that much honeycombs.

Kids cereals are actually far better for you than adult cereals because they aren't all low-volume hard granolaish crap so they portion control far better. Anything puffed is your friend. I bet if I eyed a serving of honeycombs I would have far less of a sugar crash than if I eyed a serving of grape nuts (cause with the honeycombs I'd likely take UNDER a serving - barely 90 cals and a few carbs whereas with the grape nuts I'd be taking 2 servings, 400 cals and 80 carbs).

[ItsTheWooo]

Theres a difference between grapenuts and all bran vs cocoa puffs and honeycombs. HUGE! I dont think anyone can imagine comparing the two as equally healthy.

I still wanna know what these "other" carbs are.
Speaking as someone who's spent a ton of time trying to manipulate my diet so as to fit cereal in it....

All bran is definitely the best. It's 11 carbs and 60 cals for a serving. Vitamin fortified, too.
...however, a serving of all bran doesn't go far since it's so concentrated (low in volume).

Honey combs would probably be my second next best choice. Yes, it is a corn cereal, yes it has sugar. BUT it's air puffed which means a serving goes a long way and really isn't all that high in cals and carbs.

I'm not familiar with coco puffs, but I believe that is also ap uffed corn cereal so it follows the honey combs rule.

Ironically my absolute dead LAST choice for a cereal would be the dreaded grape nuts. Teeny, tiny, granules of starch... a serving has like 200 cals and outrageous carbs PLUS a serving is so insignificant as to be a joke. I would eat grapenuts if I were lifting weights and wanted to gain or something :lol:.

The best "real" cereal is puffed grains (plain). High volume, 40ish cals per cup and only 9 net carbs. Mix with chopped high fat nuts, berries, and diluted fat milk for a fairly balanced LC cereal :).
Second best is plain wheat bran flakes. 90 cals, 18 net carbs. Lower volume & higher cal than puffed grains, however it's often fortified with 100% dv vitamins. I reduce the serving size to half usually and add high volume/low carb fruits and nuts, like with puffed grains.

[Azlocarb]

First of all, if everyone switched to a higher meat-protein diet, we would not have enough land. Period. The article that quickly states that 2/3 of the Earths land is unsuitable for farming is failing to point out that most of that land is found in northern climates, and it would not be suitable for grazing either.

That is true if you are talking about Angus Beef but I believe that caribou do very well in the northern climates and Buffalo also do excellent in cold climates.

Not that in these pc times will we start eating caribou. Lets face it, most people will continue to eat grains as they are cheap and easy to produce in mass. Thankfully we have a choice what we eat currently but that may change in the future.

[Azlocarb]

That last post is interesting. I must have hit the wrong button.

[Dodger]

That is true if you are talking about Angus Beef but I believe that caribou do very well in the northern climates and Buffalo also do excellent in cold climates.

Don't forget about yak,reindeer, muskox, seals and of course fish.

[TBoneMitch]

Also, on the bird side, ducks, ptarmigan (perdrix in Quebecer), wild turkeys...

[Lisa N]

There's also deer, elk, Moose, various strains of mountain goat and goose.

It's not just the areas that are cold, it's also the areas that are rocky or too dry that will support some grasses but are not suitable for growing crops. ;)

[Lisa N]

Yea but in volume, the "healthy adult" cereals have way more energy (carbs). 100 g of grape nuts is not even a cup. Pour out a cup of grapenuts and put it in a bowl. You are now looking at 390 calories and 80 carbs, and a rather modest portion size. Ridiculous.

100g of honeycombs is (I just calculated) 4.6 cups. That is a tremendous amount of food. You would need a salad bowl to eat that much honeycombs.

100 grams of cereal is 100 grams of cereal regardless of how much space (volume) it takes up. When you fill a cereal with air, such as Honey Comb or Puffed wheat/rice it just fools you into thinking you're getting more.
If you crushed those air-filled cereals to remove the air, you'd likely find that they occupy roughly the same amount of space as 100 grams of the denser cereals. My DH did this with the residents of his home as an object lesson. Take a bowl of your favorite cereal and crush it. Then take a look at how much food is really there. It was a real eye-opener for them, at least.
Ounce for ounce, cereals are one of the most expensive things you can buy, food-wise; if you calculate how much you are paying per pound, it comes darn close to the price of a nice steak and, quite frankly, I'd rather have the steak since I know it's going to satisfy me a lot longer than that little bit of cereal. ;)

[Grimalkin]

We probably have a lot more land capable of grazing animals that is not suitable for grain agriculture than you think. It's not necessarily a matter of turning farmable land into grazing pasture for cattle, but making use of the land that is not suitable for farming by allowing ruminants to graze on it. ;)
I can see it now... our parks, prairies, "empty" places, forests, maybe even the few "pristine" places left, converted to pasture-land for ruminants. Personally, I don't find this to be a pretty picture, although it might happen someday regardless. It will simply degrade our environment even more and be unsustainable in the long-run anyway.

I too feel that the problem is overpopulation - and overconsumption of resources!

[steveed]

Well, there we hit the nail on the head don't we? For all our wisdom, domestication of any kind, be it wheat or meat animals races us towards a big dead end. Natures way is best, big roaming herds and us following in camps after them!

Except now, there would be cities the size of New York following them, you thought Woodstock was messy.

another interesting article:

http://www.agron.iastate.edu/courses/agron342/diamondmistake.html

[Seagull101]

why in the world does the factory add sugar to Grape Nuts ??? THAT SHOULD BE OUR CHOICE !!!


PS I love them for a snack but I quit eating them because I dis not want to blow all my carbs in 1 bowl.

[ysabella]

You guys, this is a really interesting discussion. Kudos all around.

When I was living in the Netherlands, a local university proposed an experimental highrise tower for raising pigs and chickens that would house thousands of them comfortably on a small footprint. People got upset (because the mad cow thing had been going on) and pointed out how many would have to be slaughtered if any contagious disease took hold, etc.

Okay, so stop eating ham, people, or stop squawking. The Netherlands is about the size of Maine and has over 16 million people. The vat-grown meat isn't really happening on that kind of scale yet! If the consumers want it, producers have to find a way to supply it. The demand for meat was going up and the ag professors were just looking for a new solution. Why get angry? We the consumers are making it happen. You know?

Of course, this has an upside. If more people in North America look into buying grass-fed beef and local free-range poultry, suppliers will notice this and we'll have more small-scale, profitable farms. And it's true that other meats are catching on; Buffalo is good stuff and growing in popularity (and I passed a buffalo farm in eastern Washington last week - neat lookin' animals!). Ostrich and emu are getting more popular. So there's some biodiversity there.

Anyway, lots of people can eat a grainy diet and it agrees with them just fine. Which is good, since there is a limit to the meat supply and it would never feed everyone on earth. Plus the methane from the ruminants contributes massively to the greenhouse effect (and acid rain).

Incidentally, that vegetarian miscarriage mentioned in that one link? They said that the woman was eating a diet with almost no fat in it. That may have been a key factor - I know fat is highly necessary for neural development, and lately every pregnancy magazine is touting EFA prenatal supplements and baby formulas. It's the latest fad, but it's a good thing if you ask me. I was already taking EFAs and I have continued.

[Steven-NYC]

we should start eating our criminals. hey.. Cannabalism gets a bad rap. Think about it, We got plenty of bad guys. put them through a meat grinder and you're not only helping to take care of over population and over crowded prisons, buy you're making a tastey burger too!

[bsheets]

I'm starting to wonder if there are more "closet low carbers" out there than we realize! lol

...and that our parents and grandparents all lives to relatively long healthy lives eating natural fats, mostly saturated
I don't necessarily think there are closet low carbers out there, I think it's just widely known that eating your veggies is good for you. It's the old tradition of your mum not letting you leave the table until the vegies have been eaten.

Also, my mum said when she was young it was quite expensive to get animal meats, especially chicken, and most people ate a high seafood diet. Cheap to produce, cheap to purchase. It would also explain why only when your grandparents go out do they have that steak etc.

e

[Mossling]

we should start eating our criminals. hey.. Cannabalism gets a bad rap. Think about it, We got plenty of bad guys. put them through a meat grinder and you're not only helping to take care of over population and over crowded prisons, buy you're making a tastey burger too!

Soylent Green! :lol:

Mossling

[glendarc]

... especially on the senior boards....I remind people how a scant 30 yrs ago corn was said to have "no nutritional value whatsoever" and now was almost a wonder food.....and that our parents and grandparents all lived relatively long healthy lives eating natural fats, mostly saturated....
I've been thinking along those lines a lot ... my grandmother, my mother and my aunts, all knew that starches were the fattening stuff - not meat, not fat -- potatoes and sugary stuff! When I was growing up I drank whole milk (REALLY whole - like straight from the cow!), homemade butter and buttermilk, cream on everything plus fresh from the garden fruits and veggies - I didn't start gaining weight until I moved to the city and started believing the "new" nutrition wisdom!

By the way, the cows and hogs ate the grains we grew, we ate the calves and pork!

Funny how the "current wisdom" keeps changing -- I'm sure it'll change back from the low fat trend, especially seeing it's not working as witness the ever-increasing obesity and diabetes .

[black57]

we should start eating our criminals. hey.. Cannabalism gets a bad rap. Think about it, We got plenty of bad guys. put them through a meat grinder and you're not only helping to take care of over population and over crowded prisons, buy you're making a tastey burger too!

I've always wanted to put my ex in a meat grinder...but eat him? :Puke: I don't think so ;)

[Christal]

I've been thinking along those lines a lot ... my grandmother, my mother and my aunts, all knew that starches were the fattening stuff - not meat, not fat -- potatoes and sugary stuff!

I remember my aunt and my cousin's mom, on different occasions, telling me in my teenage years that if I wanted to lose weight, I just needed to stop eating bread. They never did go into specifics, they only said that when they wanted to drop weight, that's how they did it. Not enough information for me to take advantage of then, but boy do I understand it now! My parents grew up eating more meats/vegetables and whole milk, real butter, buttermilk, etc. and even now, on their good days (heck, even on a bad day for my Dad), they can run rings around me and my sister. Go figure. ;)

[bsheets]

Something I've wondered for a while is .. you know how sometimes in movies the stars go into country towns with Vikings or whatever and the people are always in a tavern, drinking ale and eating copious amounts of meat and fat? Those people usually have round tummies, red cheeks and fat smeared across their face....

Do you think movie makers get this image just because of the diet people in these regions had (/have)? They think high in fat must make you fat and gross but in reality these people were not fat, they had active lifestyles and they were really quite healthy.

e

[CindySue48]

Also, my mum said when she was young it was quite expensive to get animal meats, especially chicken, and most people ate a high seafood diet. Cheap to produce, cheap to purchase. It would also explain why only when your grandparents go out do they have that steak etc.

e
In my mom's case they had meat every night. Of course the kids had hamburg and the adults had steak....but they had beef or various fowl mostly....and fish weekly on Fridays.

Not sure about my dad's parents, but they weren't as well off....but they also raised a lot of their food.

[Sue L]

In my mom's case they had meat every night. Of course the kids had hamburg and the adults had steak....but they had beef or various fowl mostly....and fish weekly on Fridays.

Not sure about my dad's parents, but they weren't as well off....but they also raised a lot of their food.

My mom and dad claim to have eaten a lot of "meat" that wasn't exactly on the menu of the nicest restaurant's, unless it was owned by Granny Clampett. I would hate to find out that was all very healthy for us, because I just don't know how I feel about rattlesnake and possum.
I do know how I feel about frogs. My uncle had a grand time when I was a child, having gone out gigging bullfrogs and bringing them into the kitchen. Then he sprinkled a little salt on them and the legs would kick across the counter like they were still alive. I had some of his frog (fried) and it did taste like chicken (you were expecting something else? :lol: ) But another time I had it (at a fine restaurant) it smelled "swampy" and I sent it back. It smelled like the gator I saw cooked in Florida---my dad loved it but the way it smelled was as if they couldn't quite get the "green" flavor out of it.

I am very thankful that even if beef is expensive comparatively, the price of chicken keeps dropping, along with eggs. Good low carb eats! :D

[truffle00]

100 grams of cereal is 100 grams of cereal regardless of how much space (volume) it takes up. When you fill a cereal with air, such as Honey Comb or Puffed wheat/rice it just fools you into thinking you're getting more.
If you crushed those air-filled cereals to remove the air, you'd likely find that they occupy roughly the same amount of space as 100 grams of the denser cereals. My DH did this with the residents of his home as an object lesson. Take a bowl of your favorite cereal and crush it. Then take a look at how much food is really there. It was a real eye-opener for them, at least.
Ounce for ounce, cereals are one of the most expensive things you can buy, food-wise; if you calculate how much you are paying per pound, it comes darn close to the price of a nice steak and, quite frankly, I'd rather have the steak since I know it's going to satisfy me a lot longer than that little bit of cereal. ;)

I think that Woo's point is that we don't measure a serving of cereal (when we actually go to eat it) on a scale but by volume. Yes, you could eat 100 g of either and end up at the same place, but typically you'll have 1 bowl of cereal; if you choose Grape Nuts, you're likely to have 2 servings, but if you choose Honeycomb, you'll typically have 1 or fewer servings.


Another, unrelated issue: why is low-fat so bad? Most people seem to associate low-fat with high-carb, but it's possible to combine low-carb and low-fat to create a diet that will result in huge weight loss. This is the idea behind the diet that I am doing (PSMF), and without the fat, you end up with a huge calorie deficit.

[bsheets]

Hi Truffle00,

I don't know much about PSMF but wouldn't low fat/low carb leave you very hungry? My first time around I used to eat a lot of protein and not much fat (past brainwashing side-effects) and found that I would eat a ton of meat and be starving soon after. Since I've upped the fat, even just a bit, I'm much more satisfied and only need 2-3 meals per day.

As for calorie deficit, isn't a huge one what causes the 'starvation' response in your body? To go into 'starvation mode' I mean.

e

[ItsTheWooo]

I think that Woo's point is that we don't measure a serving of cereal (when we actually go to eat it) on a scale but by volume. Yes, you could eat 100 g of either and end up at the same place, but typically you'll have 1 bowl of cereal; if you choose Grape Nuts, you're likely to have 2 servings, but if you choose Honeycomb, you'll typically have 1 or fewer servings.


True, plus the puffed cereal goes down with more milk... and milk is far more nutritious than cereal.

Bottom line, if you eat a bowl of fortified puffed cereal w/ milk, and your fill of condense granola cereal w/ milk... in the latter you'll take in WAY less calories before you get satisfied (puffed cereal = relatively more milk per spoonful = more water (aka non-caloric volume) = full faster = eat less over all).
Plus relatively more will come from milk (if you're eating more milk than cereal per spoonful, you'll get full mostly on milk and not cereal which is good because milk has fat and protein, and it is a very high density food (most of milk is water)).

Another, unrelated issue: why is low-fat so bad? Most people seem to associate low-fat with high-carb, but it's possible to combine low-carb and low-fat to create a diet that will result in huge weight loss. This is the idea behind the diet that I am doing (PSMF), and without the fat, you end up with a huge calorie deficit.
Good point. In fact, low fat (or some reduction in fat from when one initially started) is requisite if one is to reduce from a very obese weight to normal weight. I eat MUCH less fat than I used to, and I often take advantage of reduced and fat free products to do that.

Tip: cheesecake tastes just as delicious made with a mix of reduced & fat free as it does full fat, with about 1/3 the calories ;).

[truffle00]

Hi Truffle00,

I don't know much about PSMF but wouldn't low fat/low carb leave you very hungry? My first time around I used to eat a lot of protein and not much fat (past brainwashing side-effects) and found that I would eat a ton of meat and be starving soon after. Since I've upped the fat, even just a bit, I'm much more satisfied and only need 2-3 meals per day.

As for calorie deficit, isn't a huge one what causes the 'starvation' response in your body? To go into 'starvation mode' I mean.

e

Hungry? Depends on what I'm doing, what I'm thinking about, etc. The modified PSMF I'm on allows most green veggies, so I tend to have a bowl of broccoli and a bowl of green beans a day, and that keeps me more satisfied. Also, filling up on water helps. Though no, even if I was doing the meat only I'd still be decently satisfied; of course, cravings must be differentiated from true hunger.

It takes a while to get into starvation mode, and it all depends on how much fat you have. Fatter people can sustain low-calorie periods for more time since they had higher metabolisms to start with and they have plenty of "food" stored on them. There are tricks to keeping your metabolism up. If you're interested in PSMF, try checking out our monthly thread on this forum (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=264678&page=1&pp=15) or go to this guy's website (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com) to buy the book (he has forums as well).

[Meg_S]

just another note about running out of meat should we all head into the carnivorous direction: muscle meat, what most of North America is interested in consuming is not really the nutritious part of the animal. The rest of it can be used too and it can go a long way. Fat, organs, bones and the marrow inside them... and yes, even intestines. As gross as it sounds to us intestines are a very valuable part of the animal to some cultures as they contain fermented and partially digested vegetation. Though.. I guess in some places I'm sure they'd run out. It's happening with family/friends of friends of ours in certain countries - families who are used to having 10-15 children because they knew many of them would not make it are STILL having 10-15 children but most of them are living because of medical interventions.

(laughing) Cities the size of NY following herds of animals..

I've been in those arguments where people argue that GMO corn and wheat crops are the way to go to save and feed the third world, and that by (me) buying local grass fed meat and organic produce I'm contributing to their starvation and death. I'm not convinced. I think small local is the best way.. yeah we'd have to sacrific a lot of exotic products which are delicious and soo convenient, resort to what is in season and not get what we want when we want but we'd know where it came from and communities could be self sustaining with clean food. Right now they can't be.

[emmy207]

There seems to be a lie that the media finds it compulsory to repeat. "Atkins, is an all protein diet, were you eat meat and cheese and doesn't allow fruit or vegatables."

It drives me nuts it is a big lie, designed to make Atkins seem like a diet for freaks and faddish, uneduacated, unhealthy eatters. When the complete opposite is true. Most of the people on this forum are very well informed about good food and bad, more concerned about healthy eating and natural foods. They eat more veggies and lots of berries, which we are constantly told that berries are very good for us.

[BetyLouWho]

The best "real" cereal is puffed grains (plain). High volume, 40ish cals per cup and only 9 net carbs.

I've been studying my child's eating habits in an effort to see what his natural preferences for foods might be. He's almost one. He hates cereal! He always has. He gags on it. Those pressed cereal cookies? Nope, sugary. The only cereals that he will eat are puffed wheat and puffed rice. Plain, with a milk chaser. Funny huh?

And what does he prefer to eat? Well, meat. Beef, chicken, pork, scrambled eggs in butter....Though, I make an effort to feed him various veggies (loves everything stir fried!) and he loves fresh fruit juice.

When it came time to introduce the baby to solid foods I was scolded by various professionals because I was not feeding him cereal. "Where is he going to get his nutrition?", they said in a panic. The only "nutrition" that I could find in cereal was iron that was ADDED to the cereal anyhow. The rest is just starch. The formulas that I chose were always full of iron and EFA's (or, as they are now sold..."DHA and ARA" (Omega 3 and 6) ) What in the world did they think that he was missing? (Ysabella, wait for this one..it's fun! We'll talk, Girl! :lol: )

I keep a loaf of sliced whole grain bread in the freezer for the odd grilled cheese sandwich for the kid, but grains are not a very big part of his diet at all. And that is mostly just a matter of his own choices. I never really thought of it that way before now, but maybe the kid is on to something......:idea: :baby:
(See, those EFAs are workin'!)

[ysabella]

Meg_S said: I've been in those arguments where people argue that GMO corn and wheat crops are the way to go to save and feed the third world, and that by (me) buying local grass fed meat and organic produce I'm contributing to their starvation and death. I'm not convinced. I think small local is the best way.. yeah we'd have to sacrific a lot of exotic products which are delicious and soo convenient, resort to what is in season and not get what we want when we want but we'd know where it came from and communities could be self sustaining with clean food. Right now they can't be.

Well, they misstated it if you ask me. I am in favor of GMO grains because I believe they can feed the starving. For you to eat locally produced foods is just fine, of course!
But if you think the whole world should be forced to eat only eat organic foods, you'll find that all of the arable land in the world is not enough to feed six billion people using only organic methods. Organic production is not high enough. Chopping down a whole bunch of old-growth forests will still not give enough arable land to do so. Also: if you think we should prevent African nations full of starving children from accepting free shipments of GMO grain (which has been happening) then I will get mad and argue with you. Look at the life's work of Norman Borlaug (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug) and tell me that science shouldn't feed the starving masses; Borlaug may have saved a billion humans from starvation by creating new strains of wheat. And yes, he is in favor of GMO crops, because he has been to these places and seen the suffering.
You'd think some of the environmentalists would be in favor of advances that let us grow more food on less land, as that way, we can retain more forests. For example, the reason the Amazonian rain forest is being burned down is for starving subsistence farmers to try to feed their families. Get those people fed, and maybe they'll stop slashing and burning that irreplaceable ecosystem.

BetyLouWho, interesting stuff about your child. Even before low-carbing, I used to buy a loaf of bread, eat maybe four slices, and forget about the rest until I had to throw it out. So, probably I will buy a box of cereal for the child, feed the child one bowl of it, and then forget for a month that I have the stuff around. So, probably some grains, but probably not a lot. :p