The truth and nothing but the truth, that's all i'm offering.

[RealUnreal]

A few facts that support the fact we evolved as a Herbivore's and not opportunist prats.

Facial Muscles

Carnivore: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
Omnivore: Reduced
Herbivore: Well-developed

Human: Well-developed

Jaw Type:

Carnivore: Angle not expanded
Omnivore: Angle not expanded
Herbivore: Expanded angle

Human: Expanded angle

Jaw Motion

Carnivore: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
Omnivore: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
Herbivore: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back

Human: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back

Major Jaw Muscles

Carnivore: Temporalis
Omnivore: Temporalis
Herbivore: Masseter and pterygoids

Human: Masseter and pterygoids

Mouth Opening vs. Head Size

Carnivore: Large
Omnivore: Large
Herbivore: Small

Human: Small

Saliva

Carnivore: No digestive enzymes
Omnivore: No digestive enzymes
Herbivore: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes

Human: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes

Liver

Carnivore: Can detoxify vitamin A
Omnivore: Can detoxify vitamin A
Herbivore: Cannot detoxify vitamin A

Human: Cannot detoxify vitamin A

And the list goes on and on and on and on

Get the message.

[etoiles]

RealUnreal - I'm confused why you put this post here. So much of the world eats meat, why spend your time on this little low carb site?? Oh wait, it's because you have gotten the wrong impression that low carbers are only eating meat and big chunks of it all the time.

Sorry to inform you, but there is no need to try and disturbe the low carb people here. Sure, many of them enjoy their meat, but you don't have to.

Don't hate, low carb the vegetarian or vegan way.

- From one non meat eater to another

[Kristine]

*yawn* (http://www.powerhealth.net/selected_articles.htm)

Get the message. (http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-1a.shtml)

Pass the chicken wings.

[orchidday]

You left out the simple, yet rather critical fact, that humans are the only animals who use fire to cook meats - making them more digestible and functional to eat with our teeth set. In addition, the use of tools allows us to eat foods that mountain lions have dentition for......... Our large brains evolved because we had access to proteins of high quality. And our larger evolved brains allow us to figure out how to eat almost anything. We are not carnivores or herbivores - we are the most opportunistic species ever evolved and more omnivorous.

Thanks to protein from meats, our abdominal cavity shrunk while our brains got larger. Our bellies cannot hold the amount of vegetation we would need to survive.

Pass the prime rib....

[Paleoanth]

We have actually evolved at dietary generalists, able to eat both vegetation and meat. It is also true that complete folivores like gorillas have extended guts that are used to digest cellulose-something that we do not have. The hominids that were herbivore dietary specialists (the Robust australopithecines) died out when in competition with our direct ancestors Homo habilis. In fact, there seems to be a correlation between our larger brains and reduced gut size. Digestive systems require a lot of calories when used to digest nothing but vegetative foods. Higher quality (meaning more calories per gram) meat foods allowed for a reduction in gut size and more calories to be expended in the equally costly expanding brain. In addition, many of our digestive enzymes are there to digest meat products.

There is archaeological evidence that as early as Homo habilis we scavenged the remains of animals. Primarily brain and bone marrow. They are high fat, high calorie parts that could be gotten with little effort with stone tools.

[Paleoanth]

Oh, and by the way-I am a vegetarian.

Some selected references:

Blumenschine, R. J. Prey size and age models of prehistoric hominid scavenging: test cases from the Serengeti: 121-147.

Blumenschine, R. J. (1986). "Carcass consumption sequences and the archaeological distinction of scavenging and hunting." Journal of Human Evolution 15: 639-659.

Blumenschine, R. J. (1986). Early hominid scavenging opportunities: implications of carcass availability in the Serengeti and Ngorongoro Ecosystems.

Blumenschine, R. J. (1987). Characteristics of an early hominid scavenging niche. Current anthropology, Chicago. 28, no. 4, 1987: 383-407, ill.

Aiello L (1992) "Body size and energy requirements." In: The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Human Evolution, Cambridge University Press, pp. 41-45.

Aiello LC, Wheeler P (1995) "The expensive tissue hypothesis: the brain and the digestive system in human and primate evolution." Current Anthropology, vol. 36, pp. 199-221.

Here is a good article that summarizes recent findings that includes the hypothesis that australopithecines did eat meat:

http://www.iub.edu/~origins/X-PDF/Teaford&Ungar2000.pdf

[Karen]

Pass the chicken wings.And the steak tartare.

But hold the fries! :lol:

Karen

[doreen T]

There is archaeological evidence that as early as Homo habilis we scavenged the remains of animals. Primarily brain and bone marrow. They are high fat, high calorie parts that could be gotten with little effort with stone tools.
Exactly! Brain and bone marrow are ... in addition to fish body oil .. the richest known sources of the essential fatty acid DHA, which humans cannot manufacture in their own bodies.

Nuts and oily fruits can provide short-chain fatty acids. But the long-chain essential fatty acids -- EPA (eicosapentanoic acid) and DHA (docosahexanoic acid) specifically ... are found pre-formed in nature only in animal-source fat. Long chain fatty acids are the chief constituents of our nerve cells and larger brain.

Humans may be able to synthesize DHA from plant-based alpha-linolenic acid (ALA or LNA) eg. from oil-bearing seeds, but the process is inefficient and incomplete. It's bioligically simpler to acquire DHA directly from animal-source fat. In fact humans are born lacking the desaturase enzymes necessary for the conversion of plant-based fatty acids -- human-breast milk is necessarily rich in pre-formed DHA. As well, a substantial percentage of human adults are deficient in these enzymes. This would suggest that the ability to synthesize DHA (and EPA) from plant-based fatty acids is not part of natural human evolution. Rather, it's an inefficient survival adaptation to the lack of pre-formed long-chain fatty acids from animal sources.


Doreen

[odyssey]

opportunistic prats? grins

i think that was a dig but i don't know what a prat is .. is that similar to a brat(as in bratwurst)? The cheddar ones are really good with eggs. i have low sodium so i can eat them occasionally but they might be too salty for some.

[Kestrel]

Where do birds fit in to that data presented in the original post, since they represent quite a diverse mix, some basically carnivores, some not.

Great responses by Paleoanth, by the way.

[cls923]

Realunreal..
Thats great you are a vegan, so is my daughter, and my sister..If that works for you fantastic...Why??? Because that is your personal choice. You can't fairly "dis" people who eat low carb diet..Why??? Because thats our personal choice...Apparently you seem to be somewhat confused about what low carb eating is anyways...its not all meat, veggies also play a big role...Your post therefore, one can assume that you are not only bashing low carbers, but all those who eat meat. This argument could go on for ever (vegitarian vs. non-vegitarian), but what would be the point?? I highly doubt either of us is going to change the others viewpoints...It would be helpful to come to the realization that different folks have different strokes!!

[adkpam]

Of course, our incisors are pointy. No as much as a cat's, but certainly more than a horse's.

[gotbeer]

"prat" - several definitions...

noun: "someone who is low or mean"
noun: "buttocks" (vulgar)
noun: "trick"
verb: "to shove someone with one's buttocks"

in context, I think meat eaters were being called "opportunistic a$$e$" or worse.

[odyssey]

"prat" - several definitions...

noun: "someone who is low or mean"

Gosh .. looks like someone who would make such a sweeping statement and call a group of people a "prat" might fit the definition of being one.

[gotbeer]

Plant-eaters: Eyes on sides of head (to spot predators).
Meat-eaters & humans: Eyes in front of head (to track prey).

Plant-eaters: make their own vitamin B-12.
Meat-eaters & humans: must get B-12 from animal products (even Vegans must do this or eventually perish).

Plant-eaters: restricted to temperate areas where plants are plentiful.
Meat-eaters & humans: can populate extremely cold environments as long as meat can be found there.

[Grimalkin]

The irony for me is that I'm not eating any more meat now than I ever did. I do eat more eggs, and more cheese, but drink less milk. The biggest change is more green veggies instead of potatoes and bread. I'm sure what these people are angry at is the media misrepresentation of Atkins more than the actual diet. And as etoiles and Paleoanth point out, many LC'ers are vegetarians themselves.

[Kestrel]

Gotbeer, one point: herbivores do live in cold climates, such as reindeer, caribou, rabbits, etc. Otherwise there wouldn't be any food for the carnivores...

[gotbeer]

I was thinking more of those who live in even more forbiding regions where even the herbivores don't go.

[Lisa N]

Gotbeer, one point: herbivores do live in cold climates, such as reindeer, caribou, rabbits, etc. Otherwise there wouldn't be any food for the carnivores...

You've got a point, Kestrel, but many of the herbivores in cold climates starve during the winter months when herbaceous food becomes scarce. A boon for the carnivores and scavengers, but not so good for the herbivores other than as a natural population control (you can't have a larger herd than there is food to support it).

[Klodo2]

The above list is simplistic and flawed. If you really want to sink your teeth into this issue (har har), try reading this page: http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-1a.shtml

P.S.: Walk with those seeking truth. Run from those who think they have found it.

[Kestrel]

Starvation happens to both of them; if the caribou are depleted, wolves are bound to suffer. I'd think wolves are more likely to be hunting the caribou, reindeer, while polar bears are more likely to be hunting the seals, etc.

In any case polar bears are carnivores hunting carnivores, as are penguins. So I'll agree with carnivores being found at the extreme edges of cold, assuming we're past the edge of plant growth.

Anyway, just imagine the percentage of carnivores to herbivores in the ocean... Especially down deep... Everything becomes food at some point.

[Lisa N]

Starvation happens to both of them; if the caribou are depleted, wolves are bound to suffer.

Agreed that starvation happens to carnivore and herbivore alike in the wild, but it's pretty rare for an entire herd to starve to death and the carnivores are not above scavanging an easy meal from a downed elk or caribou (in other words...easy pickins' for the carnivores) and are much less likely to starve for just that reason.
Hmmm...that reminds me...I have some frozen venison that needs to be eaten soon. :rolleyes:

[gotbeer]

And the meat from the starved dead would be naturally refrigerated - great eating for months!

[adkpam]

Thanks for that link, Klodomir, very enlightening. Especially about the B12 deficiences from lack of animal food in the diet.
Of course, one of the signs of B12 deficiency are these mental symptoms:

Confusion or change in mental status in severe or advanced cases. This is sometimes confused with dementia. More importantly, even a moderate deficiency of this important vitamin and its counterpart, folic acid, may ultimate contribute to the onset of Alzheimers disease or other related dementias.

http://www.aging-parents-and-elder-care.com/Pages/Vitamin_B12_Deficiency.html

[gotbeer]

Damn you, Klodomir! I had PLANS this weekend. Now, I have to study all that annoying evidence that vegetarians are screwed up. Yikes! My girlfriends CJ and Melodie are SO going to kick my a$$.

[chebbles]

Very interesting stuff Klodomir, I'll be spending the entire afternoon digesting (he!he!) all that.
What I don't understand in the whole debate is that why indeed does it matter how we were originally made or what our physical attributes or what we were intended for..isn't it the greatest thing being human is that we can take something that is a bodily necessity (food, protection from the elements, even basic intercourse...for survival of the species etc) and turn it into something truly divine and pleasurable...why on earth then do we actually cook and garnish to please all the sense, why do we bother with interior design and clothes that arent just sacks. Shoes to match outfits and accessories. As for sex, well perhaps we should go back to if we dont intend to procreate every time we have sex,then why bother? All this because we dare to use our brains to make decisions and dream and make things possible (how else do we fly between continents despite not having wings or the physical ability to do so without a plane/other device). What a sad existence it must be if you only let yourself do stuff that was necessary to survival and only stuff which purely your physical attributes allow!

[Klodo2]

LOL, sorry if I screwed up anyone's weekend by posting that link.

It's a huge and complex issue, and chebbles raises some very good points about what's "natural". This is exactly why I posted that link - because you can't just say "meat is murder" or post a list like the one that started this thread and then just expect the issue to be closed.

We are all different, and we all have our own reasons for eating the way we do, but the fact remains that we are all still alive in spite of our different diets, so even though we may be affecting our ultimate lifespan one way or the other, none of us is completely wrong. The human body is capable of adjusting to many different diets, and that's not so strange. Even if we all came out of Africa, we have since spread out all over the globe and have over the millenia adjusted to various climates and foods. The human body does evolve and adjust, and if it didn't, we wouldn't have lasted this long.

It is probably possible to add a few years to your life by eating all the right things, but we're not entirely sure what the right things are, and even if we knew, would we want to follow a very strict diet just to live a bit longer? I think a lot of people would choose enjoying life - and food - a bit more and perhaps sacrificing a year or two if the alternative meant constantly depriving themselves of their favourite foods.

Anyway, I'm rambling. All I really wanted to say is that it isn't all that simple. We're complex and diverse creatures, and I'm glad we are!

[WeeOne]

RealUnreal, Dude Chill. Why do you care what I eat??? I could care less what you eat or the next guy or the next guy.

Why does everyone seem to think that people on Atkins or any other LC WOE think that we all sit in circles gnawing and tearing at meat like a bunch of animals. Sometimes I just feel like whoppin' these people on the back of the head with a celery stick! Dipped in ranch of course. Oh no I can't do that because I have to EAT IT! Contrary to popular belief we eat veggies an no more meat than the average person!

Why is the way I eat criticized because I don't eat bread, sugar or potatoes! I eat just as much meat as I did when I was on Weight Watchers, so why don't you go spread your gospel word on a WW board as well.
Go, Go, spread the world with your knowledge.

Wee

[chebbles]

RealUnreal,why is it that folk come to this forum, give us their viewpoint and then once we have given them feedback, well, we never hear from them again? hope this is not the case with you, would be v.interested to your response to all our replies, unless you have changed your mind ofcourse or have been left speechless.
Perhaps I am unfair and we will hear your counters in due course. Until then, keep the fried chicken coming!

[pd Rydia]

Wait, wait, wait...humans AREN'T evolved as opportunistic prats? Then, young man, explain why everyone is so good at it!

[Sinbad]

bravo pd Rydia! ;)
:lol:

[Klodo2]

People, I need your help. I have come up with a whole new diet, and I need guinea pigs to test it. If you would be prepared to try a diet where you have to eat a troll a day, let me know. Satisfaction guaranteed.

Kind regards,
Klodomir, O.P.P.E.
(Opportunistic Prat Par Excellence)

[Sinbad]

*LOL*
Only if the trolls are low carb ;)

[pd Rydia]

I personally find them rather tough and dry. Not very agreeable to the palate at all.

[ItsTheWooo]

A few facts that support the fact we evolved as a Herbivore's and not opportunist prats.

And the list goes on and on and on and on

Get the message.
How do you account for the fact that the only source of complete amino acids (complete by human needs) comes from animal protein?

We evolved from ominivores with a distinct herbivore bend, this is true. Other than having the dental formula of an omnivore, our physical bodies are poorly suited for hunting and killing prey. However what you overlook is the fact that during human evolution, we used problem solving to become primarily carnivorous.

Hunting fatty animals using our minds not only encouraged proto-human females to k-select for intelligent males (as they made the best hunters), but the flesh and fat of animals provided human kind with the nutrients and calories to sustain harsh climates, population fluctuations, and just about everything the environment through their way.

In short, the evolutionary sequence which resulted in humanity would not be nearly as expansive or as intelligent today if we did not become hunters. We would probably be more like chimps, actually (modern chimps are our closest cousins, they share a more recent ancestor with us than any other primate).

It is only because your ancestors were so extremely carnivorous, and such intelligent, efficient, problem-solving hunters that you today have the mental capacity to come to the conclusion that it is morally wrong to eat meat. Now isn't that ironic? :)

[Alopex]

LOL! Gotta love a good belly laugh! :D

You all crack me right up! It has brightened an otherwise cold winter night. :)

[ItsTheWooo]

By the way, you seem to be under the impression that low carb dieting is all about eating meat and cheese. This couldn't be further from the truth. I will share with you today's planned menu:

Breakfast:
1 slice low carb multi-grain bread
4 strawberries
1 tsp no-sugar strawberry jam
4 tsp natural peanut butter
1 small low carb brownie
1 half cup carb countdown chocolate milk

Lunch:
1 small slice low carb pizza (spinach, tomato sauce, mozzarella, cheddar, onions, mushrooms, eggs, cream cheese, parmesan, heavy cream, garlic, spices)
1 half cup spinach, stir fried in a half tablespoon butter with an ounce onions, garlic, and lemon juice
1 chicken drumstick flavored with salt and hot sauce

Snack:
1, 4 ounce up dannon carb control yogurt
.25 ounce walnuts
.25 ounce almonds
mixed berries (3 blueberries, 6 raspberries (black and red), 2 strawberries)

Dinner:
1 serving mock pork fried rice (consists of onions, garlic, canola oil, soy sauce, eggs, cauliflower, and yes -- even a couple ounces of pork)
----------------------------------------
Total calories:
1250-1300 (65% fat, 11% carbs - 34 net, 24% protein)

Nutrients:
Due to the low calories and relatively low carbs of my menu (trying to shed the pounds, you see ;) ) it is deficient in some nutrients.
According to fit day, my meals for the past week were slightly deficient in the following vitamins and minerals: vitamin D (73%), vitamin k (93%), thiamin (70%), folate (61%), iron (66%), zinc (87%),, selenium (64%), copper (50%), calcium (90%), and magnesium

However when you add in my two supplements: vitamin shop daily 3 complete, and vitamin shop calcium/magnesium citrate, I am well over all daily requirements of vitamins and minerals.

Food source breakdown
Grains: Multigrain bread (wheat, soy)
Fruits: Strawberries, raspberries (black and red), blueberries, strawberry jam
Nuts/legumes: Almonds, walnuts, peanuts, chocolate (cocoa comes from a tree bean, yes ;)?)
Veggies (root, leafy, etc): Spinach, garlic, mushrooms, onions (mature and young green), tomatoes, cauliflower
Fats/oils (non-dairy): Canola oil
Dairy products: Cream cheese, heavy cream, milk, mozzarella, cheddar, parmesan, yogurt, and butter
Meat: Chicken (drumstick), pork (little bit of a chop), and egg

Clearly there is reasonable amount of variety in my diet, and the only meat-quasi meat products consumed today was 1 chicken drumstick, a little bit of a pork chop, and an egg. You must admit, this amount of meat is not all that much more than the average american consumes, is it?

Oh and please note that I am currently in OWL of atkins, so as I get to maintenence I will eat more carbs (and less dairy/meat).

[kyrasdad]

It is only because your ancestors were so extremely carnivorous, and such intelligent, efficient, problem-solving hunters that you today have the mental capacity to come to the conclusion that it is morally wrong to eat meat. Now isn't that ironic?

Muahahahaha!!!! That's the quote of the year. :lol:

Well done, your Woo-ness!!

[tamarian]

I received an enquiry by email, and thought I'd respond here in case others have the same question. The original author is shown as having made 3 posts, yet only one is visible. This is not due to deletion of other posts, it's due to deletion of the same post, which was duplicated (cut and paste) in other other sub-forums. We frequently remove duplicates (cross-posts into multiple sections), and keep the original in the appropriate section.

Wa'il

[Lisa N]

It is only because your ancestors were so extremely carnivorous, and such intelligent, efficient, problem-solving hunters that you today have the mental capacity to come to the conclusion that it is morally wrong to eat meat. Now isn't that ironic?

Isn't it though? :lol:

[Klodo2]

I think I've probably descended from a long line of goats. I'll eat anything.

[watcher16]

A few facts that support the fact we evolved as a...Let´s take a look at

DNA manipulation to grow better meat:

Carnivore: None
Omnivore: None
Herbivore: None

Human: Developing


Breeding other animals to grow more and better meat:

Carnivore: None
Omnivore: None
Herbivore: None

Human: Well-developed


Use of tools to catch other animals

Carnivore: Reduced
Omnivore: Reduced
Herbivore: None

Human: Extremely well-developed


Building capability to keepother animals:

Carnivore: Little
Omnivore: Little
Herbivore: None

Human: Well-developed


Brain capacity to investigate use of proteïne:

Carnivore: Small
Omnivore: Small
Herbivore: None

Human: Large (although some small..)


Culinair capability to enjoy meat:

Carnivore: None
Omnivore: None
Herbivore: None

Human: Developed

Also we are clearly:
Carnivore :roll: !

Get the message?

[Paleoanth]

No. That just shows how we have evolved into tool using, abstract thinking beings capable of deliberately influencing our environment. It doesn't say anything about what we eat or why.

I am not sure why you resurrected this dead thread.

[jeff45]

check out my latest picture and you can see how our mind evolved to help us harvest our atkins turkey wraps

[Paleoanth]

I am not sure where you can find a wrap big enough to handle that turkey.

[Maamel]

Has anyone noticed how the people who always come up with these sort of anti-low carb comments are always new to the forum? I am guessing they are forum-hoppers who just come in and get everyone het up and then leave. My question is why bother answering them at all? What is it that someone said here some time ago "don't feed the troll"? Over here (in England) a "prat" is fool or a stupid person! I say right back at ya!!!

[teresamay]

Just my 2 cents - personally I don't believe we "evolved" - we were created from God, who gave us reign over all the plants and animals he created for our world - this included permission to consume them. In the old and new testement, there is indictation of his people eating lamb - along with veggies.

[Paleoanth]

Has anyone noticed how the people who always come up with these sort of anti-low carb comments are always new to the forum? I am guessing they are forum-hoppers who just come in and get everyone het up and then leave. My question is why bother answering them at all? What is it that someone said here some time ago "don't feed the troll"? Over here (in England) a "prat" is fool or a stupid person! I say right back at ya!!!
Yup. That is one reason why I wasn't sure why this thread was resurrected.

Teresa-it doesn't matter whether we were "created" or evolved as far as this argument is concerned. Humans are biologically built to gain nutrition from both animal and vegetable sources, no matter where we came from.

[kaeleen]

I wasn't sure why this thread was resurrected.

Ah, but it was worth it to read Klodo2's line about the troll-a-day diet. *grin*