should his wife lose weight for him?

[mildwild]

THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS!!! This is Andy and Candy, they were married and she was hot on the honey moon and now, 5 years later, she's gained a few pounds. Anyway, read the first link and follow it or just click on the second...could this be some social experiment???

http://forums.about.com/ab-menshealth/messages/?msg=133

http://www.geocities.com/thin_or_fat/

[LadyBelle]

It could be a joke, you never know.

If he is concerned about her health, then that is a valid concern to have for a spouse. I've learned on bulliten boards men aren't always the best at expressing themselves clearly.

If it is a matter though that he is just shallow and wants her to lose for looks while she is perfectly happy at her current weight, then he should learn that respect is an important part of marrige. If she only has 30 pounds to lose to get back to her honeymoon weight, she could verywell still be within a healthy weight range for her body.

If they have been married for 5 years, there must be something besides just looks keeping them together. I don't think even the most shallow people could keep from annoying the heck out of each other unless there is something they have in common. Hopefully the bulliten board thing is more of a joke between them just to see how people would vote.

[Scarlet]

If it's a joke it's not a funny one. God that is messed up.

[speakerguy]

Being the first person to post to this thread with a penis, I'd have to say "Go Andy!". If I married a girl and then porked up, I'd expect the same.

[Lisa N]

Personal opinion...those who marry strictly for looks or money, earn whatever they get. :rolleyes:
Maybe they should just take this part out of the marriage vows:
"..For better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, 'til death do you part.." since a lot of folks just don't seem to take that seriously anymore and just want to bail at the first sign of trouble or something that they don't like about the other person (like, God forbid, gaining a few pounds).
My DH is a lot heavier (probably 50 pounds or so) than when I married him 18 years ago. While I would like to see him drop some of that weight, it's out of concern for his health since he has a strong family history of diabetes and heart disease and he's a strong candidate for both with where he carries his weight (primarly in his abdomen). If he doesn't, well...I'm not about to kick him to the curb. I didn't marry him because he was thin, I married him because he's a great guy. Looks don't last forever. Personality does. :)

[J.J.]

Incredible! If I were Candy I'd be embarrassed to tears having a husband that would do such a thing!!!

No one should pressure another to lose weight, that just makes matters worse. Certainly she would look and feel better about herself, but what if the tables were turned? He would be filing for a divorce!!!!

[potatofree]

She should have a "penile implant" site... either he gets a couple of inches put on it, or she'll leave...

[mildwild]

potatofree HA!!! that's perfect, I'll have to remember that for my friends who have that problem...my bf is perfect (well....he has his moments), he says he thinks it's great that I'm trying to lose weight but just in case it doesn't work out for me he tells me all the time it's not a big deal, he thinks I'm beautiful...When I showed him this site he just nodded his head in shame and looked away (he agrees she should lose weight for her health but thinks Andy is an ass)...he's such a sweety...

[addicted2s]

Nice one Potatofree

[ItsTheWooo]

Being the first person to post to this thread with a penis, I'd have to say "Go Andy!". If I married a girl and then porked up, I'd expect the same.
For a man who at one time weighed in at 325 pounds, and was most decidedly morbidly obese, you display a shocking shallowness, callousness, disrespect, and insensitivity to those who may struggle with weight. Shame on you. Too many men view women as creatures to stare at -- not humans with feelings and needs.

The girl before was very young, and very thin. Now she gained only about 30 pounds... probably with age. He can't possibly expect her to stay the way she was. Looks are fleeting. Besides, she is not hugely fat now, not even clinically obese really as before she was underweight. I think she should lose weight for her, not to impress her husband. I am sure her husband has a few gray hairs, added a few pounds, and most DEFINITELY probably stopped the honeymoon romantic treatment. I seriously doubt he would treat her this way if he had to trick... oops, I'm sorry, propose marriage to her.

Look the bottom line is this. People are not perfect, women were not put on this earth to entertain men, and guess what a marriage should be based on much more than superficial looks.

If I was Candy, I would dump that jerk without hesitation.

[MyJourney]

I agree ItsTheWooo!

Candy should lose weight if she wants to when she is ready to and having that type of pressure on her doesnt make things easy on her and makes her husband look like a jerk.

If he wants her to lose weight he can be supportive and make suggestions like lets join a gym and go together or perhaps make options for healthier choices for both of them.

My ex boyfriend used to encourage me to lose weight after I gained 100 lbs while we were together in 1 year. He was supportive of me but would sit around and eat chinese food and pizza while I was trying to eat steamed something or another all the time and it became really difficult to do it alone.

There are better ways to go about this and many of those comments were hurtful and disgusting.

Why should a man make a woman feel ugly and unattractive it makes her even worse because she feels worse about herself and it lowers her self esteem.

[kyrasdad]

Well, just looking at the pics to me, it's pretty obvious that the fat photo has been retouched. I dunno if that makes it bogus or not, but from the tone of the site and the bogus pics, I tend to think so.

[huntress]

This is insult to us all!!!! That a.. Is saying she has control over her weight and can lose and gain at will, as if, how many of you know someone like that none! Who chooses to gain weight! I sure didn't, Couldn't stop it. Tried everything Saw Doctor after doctor This is the only way to lose. If this is real I really feel for her, Bet she is getting " you have such a pretty face now if you would only lose weight" Lecture, and a lot of other BS.

Thats my vent sorry this hit too close to home!! I say it dosn't bother me but I guess the scar is still open.

Diane

[Lisa N]

I'm not convinced that this is really legit, but if it is, wow....some of those comments are really harsh! I can't imagine my husband putting up with some of the things that have been said to Candy on this site, let alone laughing at it and saying "see...they think you need to lose weight!".
Fat or not, if someone were to say some of the things to my face that have been said to Candy on this site in the presence of my DH, they'd be laid out on the floor unconscious and it would be a 50/50 bet as to which of us would be responsible for it.
At the very minimum, I think Andy is a total jerk for subjecting his wife to such comments on purpose.
I do know of a way that Candy can lose almost 200 pounds of ugly weight in a hurry, though...d-i-v-o-r-c-e. :rolleyes:
If this is really legit, I think she should lose the weight and then lose Andy.

[doreen T]

I'd say the whole thing is contrived .. I notice that most of the site talks about Candy and Andy .. but next to the voting panel, it tells the reader to "leave a note for Dan or Candy in the guestbook". Name changed to protect the insensitive, I guess.

Here's a great comment, from someone around 13 yrs old (mental age, if not actual ..) This guestboook just validates all you overweight web surfers who vote for Fat. Its pathetic, you tell her to stay fat and for Andy to love her. If she puts on any more weight Andy should divorce her fat ass and get himself a skinny chick who looks sexy. All the people who vote for fat are probably fat themselves. You morons need to lose weight yourselves. Poor Andy.
:rolleyes:

Doreen

[kevjol]

Andys a dumda$$
My wife gained 30 lbs since I married her and she was still beautiful and I never hassled her about her weight because I didn't care because she still was beautiful and I didn't marry her for her body. I married her because we go together like peas in a pod. I don't have to pretend to be anyone other than myself and can be completely honest with her about anything anytime. She is a part of me that I would not want to lose under any circumstances. Some people call it love.

To me it is love that comes so easy and because we are both so up front and honest about our opinions and views of things Even if we don't agree she is an extension of me and I know she feels the same way.

She finally did get tired of the extra weight and took it off the old fashioned way of diet and exercise and now is very proud of herself and her looks (as she should be)

Now the flip side
I too gained about 60 lbs and she never had anything to say about it and she did not love me any less. she did have concerns about my health though but never tried to pressure me or ridicule me into getting thinner.

Unfortunately for me it took deteriorating health issues to finally get me to start taking better care of myself and to start getting healthy.
She supports me in this all the way,even starting the low-carb lifestyle herself.

To sum it up I am thankful to God for bring us together Because no one else can fill her shoes.

Andy needs to get a life and reevaluate his relationship because superficial things should not matter.
Its what is inside that counts

[speakerguy]

For a man who at one time weighed in at 325 pounds, and was most decidedly morbidly obese, you display a shocking shallowness, callousness, disrespect, and insensitivity to those who may struggle with weight.

And fatty-coddling is going to make that weight just fly off her. Riiiight.

Now she gained only about 30 pounds... probably with age.

That pretty little band of financial and sexual obligation around her finger had absolutely nothing to do with it either, I'm sure :)

If I was Candy, I would dump that jerk without hesitation.

Considering the studies done on marriage, weight gain, and marital happiness, that's an iffy proposition - for women, there's a huge correlation between weight gain and marital unhappiness (which comes first is a chicken-and-the-egg argument :)). But she's also MUCH less marketable to potential mates as a result of her weight. Lose the weight, then ditch the guy. I thought all ladies knew never to let go of one branch before grabbing hold of another? :)

[Lisa N]

And fatty-coddling is going to make that weight just fly off her. Riiiight.

Hmmm...and fatty bashing/shaming is going to be more effective? Perhaps...if the goal is to get her to dump him. Assuming that this is legitimate and not some sick joke, the issue here seems to be one of control. Since Andy isn't getting what he wants (Candy to lose the weight) by telling her he wants her to, he's "upping the ante" so to speak by trying to shame her into it. Nice tactics for a so-called loving relationship. Manipulation such as this does not indicate a healthy relationship to start with. I'd say that the marriage is already in trouble whether Candy decides to lose the weight or not.


That pretty little band of financial and sexual obligation around her finger had absolutely nothing to do with it either, I'm sure

This cuts both ways and I don't recall anything in my marriage vows promising to always remain at the weight I was at when I got married. As a matter of fact, I weigh less now than I did then. I DO, however, recall something in those vows about "to love, honor and cherish" (again, nothing in there about that only applying as long as wifey stays slim). What Andy is doing fits none of those words.

But she's also MUCH less marketable to potential mates as a result of her weight

Newsflash...there are a lot of men who prefer their women to not be anorexic and actually appreciate a woman with a little more meat on her bones, so to speak. The above only applies to men who have the notion that a woman has to look like a Sports Illustrated swimsuit model to be considered mate material. What's more, most women who look like that probably wouldn't give someone with the above attitude the time of day, much less marry them.

[doreen T]

I wonder if she starved / purged / Slim-Fasted before the wedding in order to be 30 lbs lighter?? She looks kinda emaciated in the before pic ..

What if she decides to trim down by exercising?? She could end up weighing exactly the same or even a bit MORE .. yet be 3 sizes leaner and slimmer. Does that mean she loses the bet because the number on the scale isn't 30 lbs smaller? :rolleyes:


Doreen

[hey_Neener]

Being the first person to post to this thread with a penis, I'd have to say "Go Andy!". If I married a girl and then porked up, I'd expect the same.

What about the number of guys that pork up? IMHO 30 extra pounds on a woman looks so much better than 30 on a man.

[potatofree]

With such attitudes from some men, it's a wonder any of them could GET a wife....

As for "fatty-coddling" et al...

My husband "supported" my weight loss by oinking when I ate something he didn't think I should have...and ridiculing me every chance he got, while telling me he did it because he "cared"....It didn't work. <duh>

[hey_Neener]

Glad Mr Potatohead isn't around if you were getting that kinda crap!

[Lisa N]

What if she decides to trim down by exercising?? She could end up weighing exactly the same or even a bit MORE .. yet be 3 sizes leaner and slimmer.

Not to mention be more physically capable of kicking Andy's sorry butt to the curb. :lol:

[kyrasdad]

And fatty-coddling is going to make that weight just fly off her. Riiiight.

There is a huge chasm between "fatty coddling" and being a decent human being. If someone put a website up about his wife with crap like that on it, he's no kind of man. He can't settle the issue without that? He isn't strong enough to present her his point of view without creating a comedy website?

(I'm pretty sure the entire thing is fake, anyway.)

[Lisa N]

There is a huge chasm between "fatty coddling" and being a decent human being. If someone put a website up about his wife with crap like that on it, he's no kind of man.

I finally realized what about this bothers me so much, so get ready for a rant folks. It's because it promotes the attitude in today's society that being overweight, even by a little, makes it legitimate to subject someone to ridicule, taunting and verbal abuse simply because of a number on a scale or that they don't fit the (IMNSHO, ANOREXIC) model of beauty that the media presents us with).
Does being overweight make us less human? How about lower intelligence? Less capable of doing a good job than the next person? Without feelings? A worse husband/wife than a skinny person? Should we forfeit our right to be treated with dignity and respect soley because of our size? The answer to all of those is NO! Does not fitting the mold of what someone else feels is beauty make us deserving of such treatment? No! When I get to my goal weight, I will still be the same person I was when I weighed 260 pounds. About the only difference I have noticed so far is that I now have the self esteem and confidence to stand up to the morons who think they have a right to comment on my size and call them for the jerks they are.
As an adult, I can stand up for myself, but it's this same attitude even among young children that has made it necessary for me to have to be on guard against a possible eating disorder in my 9 year old daughter! About a year ago, she started getting a little chubby and when the other kids in her class found out what she weighed (much thanks to her gym teacher for that one), they started taunting her. This was in second grade, folks! How did she respond? She quit eating and dropped nearly 20 pounds in 6 months. Great! some folks might say. Not great. At that age, losing that much weight that quickly can cause a child to stop growing and it damages their bodies in other ways. Her pediatrician is having a fit! Not to mention, now we have to battle the mindset of "I'm fat" even when she is NOT fat, nor was she when all this started and she's preoccupied with how much she weighs at 9 years old! She didn't "fit the mold" of how the other kids thought she should be and she wasn't mature enough to stand up for herself and tell them to get a life. That's how much damage words (and the attitude that you have to be skinny to be an acceptable human being) can do and it is NOT acceptable in my opinion.
What I find especially disturbing is that someone who (I presume) has suffered verbal abuse or discrimination due to their size would see this as perfectly acceptable behavior to engage in.

End of rant. :rolleyes:

[speakerguy]

How successfully you women frame the discussion in terms of the chauvinist jerk husband vs. the helplessly overweight wife! Are these the things they taught you when they pulled you aside in gym class? :) Torching your straw men isn't worth the flames that would ensue.

The reality is quite simple: being fat is not acceptable (not even with the 'to have and to hold' poppycock so readily being bandied about as an excuse for fat-assery). When people learn this, perhaps they will de-chunkify and start living happier lives. I know I have :)

[Kristine]

Did you not read Lisa's post, Speakerguy? Why are the overweight (and even the slightly overweight) undeserving of dignity in your world? Being fat is not a crime, and isn't even a moral issue, so why is someone worth less when they gain weight?

I'm pretty sure that site is just a joke, but dude - that woman is experiencing entirely NORMAL "female pattern weight gain." That's the way the female body is designed to work. Sorry. No, I take that back - no woman owes anyone else an apology for that.

"being fat is not acceptable"

According to whom? Who has the right to judge?

[potatofree]

Speakerguy-- may I ask what YOUR wife thinks of your size?

[Lisa N]

The reality is quite simple: being fat is not acceptable

I agree with Kristine. Says who? And why should I conform to what "they" think is beauty? What gives "them" the right to set the standard?
Considering that the current "standard" of what is considered "acceptable" is fostering eating disorders in our young daughters (and sons as well) in order to try and meet it, I'd say that something is seriously wrong with that standard.
I didn't need gym class to teach me that every human being is deserving of being treated with dignity and respect regardless of what size, color or shape they happen to be, but now that you mention it, it wouldn't be a bad idea to start teaching people that lesson in school; it seems that quite a few haven't learned yet that a person's worth isn't determined by what size they wear, nor should happiness be tied to a number on the scale.
I'm afraid that those who think that losing weight will solve all their problems and that they'll find happiness when they reach that magic number on the scale will find themselves sorely disappointed once they reach their goal weight and find that the only thing that has changed about them is their clothing size unless they also deal with the serious self-esteem issues also going on. BTW...self-esteem shouldn't be tied to a number, either, since what size we are or how much we weigh doesn't determine our worth as a human being, either.
As for a heavier girl being less "marketable"....dude, we aren't slabs of meat to be put on the auction block! I found and married a wonderful guy weighing more than I do now and we've been together (happily, I might add) for more than 18 years now. Come to think of it, he's gained 50 pounds in the time we've been married. Should I kick him to the curb because of that? NOT!

Weight issues aside, any man that would turn his wife into an internet sideshow to be mocked and ridiculed is no man in my opinion.

[doreen T]

... Recently a beautiful young woman whom I had helped to become slim and who had stayed that way, told me how she had finally managed to get her husband to reduce. "During our 12 years of married life," she said, "I couldn't get George to take off the fat that was turning a handsome man into an uglier one each year. He kept putting on weight until he scaled over 250 pounds instead of the 175 pounds he was when I married him. I tried to get him to visit you or at least go on your diet, but he refused. He always answered, "I'm a happy fat man."

She shook her head. "I almost gave up. Last summer we rented a house at the beach. Most of the time George wouldn't get into his swim trunks even though he loves to swim. The few times he did go swimming he looked like a tremendous beach ball with legs. No one would ever know that there was a very handsome, tall, thin man hiding inside that ugly mass of flab.

"It didn't help when I told him again and again that I was afraid of his premature death because of his shortness of breath and other evidences of deteriorating health. Finally I said straight out, 'George, I'm ashamed of the way you look. I'm beginning to dislike being with you. Either you start slimming down or I'm afraid that I'll eventually get to the point where I'll have to leave you!"

She beamed. "It worked. He couldn't get very upset about dying before his time. But this blow to his vanity, and even suggesting that his overweight might be repulsive to me, as well as to others, and could break up our marriage - that did the trick. He made a deal with me that he'd go on your Quick Weight Loss Diet for just one short week. If he didn't lose weight - he thought he was one of those people who couldn't - I promised I'd shut up about it from then on.

< snip >

This case fortunately has a happy ending. Too many others I've known about have ended in family tragedy with a woman leaving a grossly overweight husband whom she couldn't stand to look at or live with any more. More often the situation has been that of a man leaving his overweight wife who had lost her figure, her looks, her pride and spirit and finally her husband.
This is a quote from Dr. Stillman's Quick Weight Loss Diet, published in the US in 1967.

What a sad example of manipulation and humiliation. :(


Doreen

[Angeline]

I've always said in the past that I couldn't be attracted to a heavy man. Then I met my current b/f. No one would call him slim. It never occured to me to reject him due to his weight. I like him for who is he, and weight doesn't matter. I find him plenty attractive. It's really just a mindset, it has little to do with looks.

I do encourage him to loose weight, but mostly for health reasons. I want him to be around for a long time !!

[kyrasdad]

How successfully you women frame the discussion in terms of the chauvinist jerk husband vs. the helplessly overweight wife!

I'm a guy. I think that if it was legit (and I doubt that website was), then the husband is no kind of man at all. If he's real, he's a coward who ridicules his wife in public. He's someone who takes someone else's weakness and homes in on it. At the starting weight listed in your profile, you are certainly familiar with that situation, I would guess.

I'm not talking about confronting her about it, or discussing it within your marriage -- that's different. But to nag, ridicule and make fun of your wife publicly? What a soul-less prick.

And you, as someone who's been fat in this world, ought to at least have some empathy.

The reality is quite simple: being fat is not acceptable (not even with the 'to have and to hold' poppycock so readily being bandied about as an excuse for fat-assery). When people learn this, perhaps they will de-chunkify and start living happier lives. I know I have :)

It's good that you're a long way down the road toward losing your weight. Doing that doesn't give you license to join the mindless throng of people who think it's just dandy to ridicule the fat. There is not an excuse for fat, I agree--we're all ultimately responsible for our health. But there is also no excuse for the attitude "Andy" showed with that site, or yours toward people in this forum.

Being an awful husband to your wife isn't acceptable. And you probably aren't familiar enough with marriage or commitment to understand that. "Poppycock" isn't what the commitment is.

I have to say, I would expect someone who has been through the fire of being fat to perhaps have a bit of understanding for that situation in others. It leads me to say that there are worse things--less acceptable things--in this world than fat. Your attitude appears to be one of them, especially in a support forum designed for people to help people. You aren't showing tough love. You're showing that you have a flaw other than fat.

[bigguyjonc]

I think she should lose weight for herself ,her self esteem and health but we all know that ultimatums don't work. she has to lose weight for herself not because some *ss tells her to or else. well that's my 2 cents.

jon

[mudknife]

speakerguy wrote: The reality is quite simple: being fat is not acceptable (not even with the 'to have and to hold' poppycock so readily being bandied about as an excuse for fat-assery). When people learn this, perhaps they will de-chunkify and start living happier lives. I know I have :)
-------------------------------------------
Hi speakerguy, I recognize you and your attitude.

A friend of mine I grew up with has your attitude.
The thing about my friend is he has some good common sense ideas and is a bright guy, but his attitude is a lot like putting perfume on a skunk. It turns people off.

I have known my friend for 30 years and I know him well. I'll tell you what others and I secretly think of him (I would never say it to his face), just as he would never call me fatass to mine. If he did, he would lose one of the last loyal friends he has.

He's a lonely skinny alcoholic with no friends on the verge of losing his house. He is perpetually on unemployment because he cannot get along at work. He had two wives leave him! That's 2 women who got tired of being ridiculed for being fat, which they were not. You have to be a total putz to have a wife leave you, let alone 2!

Simply put, I believe he ridiculed his wives to make himself feel superior.

Of course he blames all of our old friends, his brothers, and his family for not keeping in touch with him, but it's the other way around. He is so abrasive in his attitudes no one will talk to him.

His poor attitude towards fat people spills over to other areas as well, for example people of color and women to name only two.

[sydnarella]

Well, gosh, hmmm.... I think the webpage is joke, not very amusing, but I dont think its a "real" couple. If it was a real couple, the male partner could find a much more compassionate and helpful way to get his point across to his wife. He sounds like a jerk. That said, I don't think its fair to one's spouse to let oneself go, on any level, physical or otherwise. Obviously, a marriage should be for better or for worse, but I do think spouses have an obligation to attempt from thrusting the "worse" part of the equation onto their partner if it can be helped. There are tribulations which neither partner can foresee nor control such as illness, but as shallow as it my seem, I'm not sure I would be physically attracted to a man if HE gained a lot of weight during the marriage. I would expect him to take care of himself and I would understand if he expected the same of me.

[potatofree]

Sydnarella-- what if he lost a limb due to an accident, was scarred in a fire... the unforseen instances of which you speak? If you love someone, does it MATTER what makes their appearance change? What is it about weight gain that makes it so much less acceptable?

[mildwild]

HI ALL!!!!! LOTS OF VERY INTENSE OPINIONS HERE!!!


I'm not sure if any of you have noticed, I've read a lot of post speaking of how he is humiliating his wife, however, this is a couples venture (assuming it's real), it was decided by both him and her to do the poll.

So this leaves only the fact that (if it were true) he is being unkind. However, he has agreed that if people find he is out of line that he would merely renew his wedding vows and be done with it. I think this man is not as lost as many find him to be, otherwise he would not be seeking the opinion of others. He would not need people to back him up. And even if they do, majority rules. He loves her, otherwise they would not have made it through 5 years, but he still has to sleep with her, and he has difficulty doing so while her looks deteriorate, then he has the right to tell her instead of instantly leaving her and leave her wondering why.

I think he's done the right thing with his wife by bringing it up. Communication. Now, imagine that the site is her doing, not his.

-mildwild

[potatofree]

Mildwild-- if he loves her, he wouldn't need the validation of others...

If it were her, I'd be just as disgusted. There's a guy on the Dr Phil weight loss series whose wife is expressing similar opinions of her husband.

[sydnarella]

Well, I'm guessing that if I was married to someone who had an accident, I wouldn't see that as being something he could control. And in that situation, I'm sure that I would just be happy he was alive. I don't think that has anything to do with the fact that I don't think its right not to do what you can to maintain yourself intellectually, spiritually and physically for your spouse. And that would include both parties. To me, its a sign of respect for your spouse and for yourself. And I don't think I would be honest if I said that if I found that my spouse didn't respect himself, and by extension, me, that it might figure into my level of attraction for him. I would not, of course, humiliate him. But it would definitely be something I would tactfully bring up.

[potatofree]

Point taken. So if the weight gain was a side-effect of a medical condition, it's acceptible.. it's purely a respect issue then?

[sydnarella]

That's funny, I think you're right. I think for me it is a respect issue. For men, it may not be the same though - I don't know. Its interesting to think about.

[ItsTheWooo]

How successfully you women frame the discussion in terms of the chauvinist jerk husband vs. the helplessly overweight wife! Are these the things they taught you when they pulled you aside in gym class? :) Torching your straw men isn't worth the flames that would ensue.

The reality is quite simple: being fat is not acceptable (not even with the 'to have and to hold' poppycock so readily being bandied about as an excuse for fat-assery). When people learn this, perhaps they will de-chunkify and start living happier lives. I know I have :)

No amount of verbal abuse will make someone change for the better. People change when they want to, for themselves, end of story.

Hey, I do think "Candy" should lose weight, don't get me wrong, but I do not think she should have some perfect unrealistic ideal in her mind, and I do not think she should change only to appease others.

Remember people the goal at hand is good health, it is not to fit in with lame a** "society", and it is not to please some jerk guy, girl, or anyone else but yourself.

[ItsTheWooo]

Speakerguy-- may I ask what YOUR wife thinks of your size?
I'd be interested in hearing this, too. Speakerman is still a fairly large man, is he comfortable with the fact that many people who are thin believe he is unworthy of equal treatment, respect, and dignity?

[ItsTheWooo]

speakerguy wrote: The reality is quite simple: being fat is not acceptable (not even with the 'to have and to hold' poppycock so readily being bandied about as an excuse for fat-assery). When people learn this, perhaps they will de-chunkify and start living happier lives. I know I have :)
-------------------------------------------
Hi speakerguy, I recognize you and your attitude.

A friend of mine I grew up with has your attitude.
The thing about my friend is he has some good common sense ideas and is a bright guy, but his attitude is a lot like putting perfume on a skunk. It turns people off.

I have known my friend for 30 years and I know him well. I'll tell you what others and I secretly think of him (I would never say it to his face), just as he would never call me fatass to mine. If he did, he would lose one of the last loyal friends he has.

He's a lonely skinny alcoholic with no friends on the verge of losing his house. He is perpetually on unemployment because he cannot get along at work. He had two wives leave him! That's 2 women who got tired of being ridiculed for being fat, which they were not. You have to be a total putz to have a wife leave you, let alone 2!

Simply put, I believe he ridiculed his wives to make himself feel superior.

Of course he blames all of our old friends, his brothers, and his family for not keeping in touch with him, but it's the other way around. He is so abrasive in his attitudes no one will talk to him.

His poor attitude towards fat people spills over to other areas as well, for example people of color and women to name only two.

Typical person suffering from NPD (narcissistic personality disorder).

The narcissist feels himself superior to all, believes he has the right to manipulate and abuse others, in fact breaking down other people is one of his favorite hobbies (as it strokes his ego in contrast). When the narcissists life eventually ends in the toilet, as it always does as people eventually no longer can stand to be around him, rather than realize it is he who caused this to happen, he blames others and the world -- after all, the narcissist is infallable, all misfortunes must be caused by someone else's ineptitude.

Only way to deal with a narcissist is to leave them asap, they are sick and will only break you down. Sounds like this "andy" character and your friend fit the criteria...

[ItsTheWooo]

Well, I'm guessing that if I was married to someone who had an accident, I wouldn't see that as being something he could control. And in that situation, I'm sure that I would just be happy he was alive. I don't think that has anything to do with the fact that I don't think its right not to do what you can to maintain yourself intellectually, spiritually and physically for your spouse. And that would include both parties. To me, its a sign of respect for your spouse and for yourself. And I don't think I would be honest if I said that if I found that my spouse didn't respect himself, and by extension, me, that it might figure into my level of attraction for him. I would not, of course, humiliate him. But it would definitely be something I would tactfully bring up.

I do agree with what you say in part, in a way by letting herself go totally and not even trying she is disrespecting her husband.

However, her husband is also disrespecting her by
a) outright saying her looks are the most important thing in their marriage, so important that he will divorce her if she won't go back to the way she was
b) forcing her to live up to some teenage girl ideal that a mature woman can't realistically or healthfully meet.

Don't get me wrong, I am not one of those people who thinks people should stay fat. I do think candy should lose weight, but she should do it for her, to respect and keep up her own body. The reasons her husband has layed out, and the manner he did it in, is absolutely repulsive to me. What about his behavior? That is at least as big of a disrespect to her, as her letting herself go is to him.

[Dean4Prez]

She should have a "penile implant" site... either he gets a couple of inches put on it, or she'll leave...

It's not like he's asking her to get a boob job here, just get back to what she had (or rather, didn't have) when they got married.

[Dean4Prez]

This is a quote from Dr. Stillman's Quick Weight Loss Diet, published in the US in 1967.

What a sad example of manipulation and humiliation. :(

Doreen

You say that like it's a bad thing.

[Dean4Prez]

What is it about weight gain that makes it so much less acceptable?

The fact that it's under one's control, of course.

[Dean4Prez]

if he loves her, he wouldn't need the validation of others...


What's wrong with needing external validation? I think external validation is like ketosis -- there are situations where it can be a good thing (like keeping one from becoming dangerously overweight), and other situations where it's a pathological condition. Furthermore, I don't think it would necessarily be easier for "Andy" to change this attitude, really change it, than it would be for "Candy" to lose those 30 lbs.

I noticed something while reading through this thread:

potatofree -- starting weight 298, goal 160 = Morbidly obese
Attitude: "if he loves her, he wouldn't need the validation of others..."

ItsTheWooo -- starting weight 280, goal 135 = Morbidly obese
Attitudes: "I think she should lose weight for her, not to impress her husband." and "I do not think she should change only to appease others."

kevjol -- "for me it took deteriorating health issues to finally get me to start taking better care of myself and to start getting healthy" = Morbidly obese
Attitude: "...superficial things should not matter..."

bigguyjonc -- starting weight 354, goal 200 = Morbidly obese
Attitude: "she has to lose weight for herself not because some *ss tells her to or else."

How interesting! It would appear that the people here who believe that the opinions of others shouldn't matter so much tend to have been morbidly obese at one time. Isn't that an amazing coincidence?

Lest you think I'm just poking fun at others here -- just because I don't think there's something necesssarily wrong with needing external validation, doesn't mean that I have a healthy level of this characteristic. Like a lot of nerds, I just don't think about what other people think of how I look. And like you, I was morbidly obese at my peak weight (230). Coincidence? I think not...

[Dean4Prez]

However, her husband is also disrespecting her by
a) outright saying her looks are the most important thing in their marriage, so important that he will divorce her if she won't go back to the way she was


Uh, declining to renew one's marriage vows is not a divorce. Marriages don't automatically expire (or if they do, my "wife" and I have been probably been living in sin for a few years -- why don't people tell me these things?!). Renewing vows, especially after just five years of marriage, is an "extra."

[kyrasdad]

How interesting! It would appear that the people here who believe that the opinions of others shouldn't matter so much tend to have been morbidly obese at one time. Isn't that an amazing coincidence?

Lest you think I'm just poking fun at others here -- just because I don't think there's something necesssarily wrong with needing external validation, doesn't mean that I have a healthy level of this characteristic. Like a lot of nerds, I just don't think about what other people think of how I look. And like you, I was morbidly obese at my peak weight (230). Coincidence? I think not...

The thing you miss is that the opinions of others don't usually motivate people. People who have been fat for a lifetime know it. They don't need to be told so. They (we) understand it intimately, and probably with no small amount of personal, daily horror.

External validation, motivation -- whatever you'd like to call it -- isn't usually very useful to an obese person. He has the facts. He understands the stakes. So yeah, the opinions of others shouldn't matter. They aren't really all that relevant. I don't know of anyone who has been motivated to lose or to make other decisions about self destructive behavior that way. I've got a recovering alcoholic brother. He went to jail. He lost his driver's license. He hit pretty much rock bottom. I seriously doubt ridicule would have motivated him.

It seems that "motivation" and ridicule have gotten mixed up here somehow. Comments like "fat-assery" aren't going to motivate anyone to do anything.

[Lisa N]

While the issue of Andy and Candy sparked this whole thread, I think there's a larger issue underlying the whole thing and there are a few things that bear discussing.

First: how much extra fat can you have on your body before someone can say that you are no longer acceptable or that you have "let yourself go"? It seeems to me that would be a very subjective thing since some people carry extra weight better than others and what one person considers "beautiful" and "sexy" another person may not. Who sets the standard for what is considered an acceptable body shape/body fat percentage/weight and why should we accept it as valid (health concerns aside here)? In our current society, the thin and beautiful receive validation while the overweight or average looking person does not; the booming plastic surgery business is testament to that, but does this mean we should all fall in with the majority and buy into this idea as valid? The underlying philosophy with that is only the thin and beautiful are worthy of validation/promotion/attention or even being hired as an employee and that a person's worth is determined solely by their apperance.

Second: The prevailing notion that carrying what someone else considers an unacceptable amount of extra pounds suddenly makes you a valid target for verbal abuse, mental abuse, discrimination and deserving of having the support of your spouse or SO withdrawn until you conform to their standards which are often based on unrealistic images of what beauty is. Read some of the comments left for Candy on that website. If those don't qualify as abuse, I don't know what does, and Andy (and to a certain extent, Candy) is willing to subject his wife to this? How would you all feel if Andy stood his wife up on a stage at the local mall and invited these same comments, even if Candy was willing to subject herself to such treatment? I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd be thinking that Andy was the biggest jerk alive and that Candy had no self-respect. How is doing it on the internet any different? Are shaming/badgering/manipulating/threatening valid methods to get someone else to conform to your standards? Are they effective and do the means justify the end? IMO, only the vain or the insecure are motivated by such methods. Ultimately, all of those methods are about one person controlling another and that is not what a healthy relationship should be based on. Should the love between a husband and wife be conditional or unconditional?

Third: The idea that those who are overweight suffer from some sort of moral deficiency or are just plain gluttons. If it was a simple case of eat less/exercise more many of us wouldn't be here because we'd all be at our goal weights and enjoying the "validation" of society. I can't tell you the number of posts I've read from people who have tried that route only to fail miserably or who have "dieted" themselves to their current weight as well as the number of posts from people saying, "I never understood what was making me fat until I understood what carbs and sugars were doing to my body." Yes, there are a certain number of people who can simply eat less and exercise more and lose the weight, but there is (I believe) a much larger portion of the popluation who have metabolic issues with the traditionally recommended weight loss methods of more carbs/less fat/exercise more and are completely unaware of them. They only know that they're doing everything they've been told to do and continue to gain weight. Are these people deserving of our scorn and ridicule? How about those that have medical conditions such as PCOS or hypothyroid which predispose them to weight gain despite their best efforts? Shame them for their condition? Same thing for those that need to take medications that cause weight gain? None of those are things you can see by looking at a fat person and yet we are all willing to judge without hesitation based on the appearance only.

Fourth: If gaining weight and "letting yourself go" are disrespectful to your mate or SO and justify their withdrawing their love and support or outright verbal and mental abuse, would not eating right, not excercising enough, drinking a bit too much, smoking, etc...also be considered the same and justification for the same? There are a lot of unhealthy thin people in our society as well. Would it be ridiculous for a spouse to say, "Whoa, babe...you've got high blood pressure from all those salty foods you've been eating...you're dissin' me!" or "I'd better see you spending more time at the gym or it's over for us, dude."? Granted, Andy's comment about renewing his marriage vows if the votes for Candy to stay as she is win out or she has 2 years to lose the 30 pounds isn't threatening divorce, it's a step in that direction because the underlying thought there is "if everyone thinks you need to drop the weight, babe, and you don't then I'm withdrawing my commitment to you unless or until you comply."

Ultimately, it's not so much an issue of whether or not Candy should drop the weight, it's really an issue about what determines a person's worth and makes them deserving of "validation" (whatever that may be), the love and support of their spouse or SO and the attitude that only thin and beautiful are deserving of such things.

[kyrasdad]

The fact that it's under one's control, of course.

Let's examine that. I'm in agreement that fat is under the control of the fat person, of course. We are all responsible for our condition, whatever that is. However, the degree to which fat people are "held responsible" when compared to other self destructive behaviors is extreme.

After all, smoking costs everyone monetarily in terms of insurance premiums, taxes, healthcare costs, and misery at least as much as fat does. But smokers aren't ridiculed in most every public forum. The same comparison could be made for alcoholics or drug users. Robert Downey Junior probably advanced his career with his addictions (he certainly didn't slow it down). If he'd done something similarly self destructive -- say, gain 100 pounds of fat -- would that have been the case?

Another self inflicted flaw might be someone who routinely drives carelessly and causes his face to be hideously burned in a crash, or puts himself into a wheelchair. Is it all right to ridicule that person because "he did it to himself?" it was under his control, too.

I'm not saying the fat aren't responsible for what they (we) have done to ourselves. I loathe the fat acceptance movement because it's predicated on a Big Lie. And I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for airlines to charge a person who takes up two seats for the privilege.

But I am saying that in significant ways, the fat tend to be held responsible, to pay the social price for that flaw than other self destructive behaviors.

[potatofree]

potatofree -- starting weight 298, goal 160 = Morbidly obese
Attitude: "if he loves her, he wouldn't need the validation of others..."

True love and respect would involve a heartfelt discussion of the issue.. not public humiliation. Personally, if this site IS for real, I think they're both more interested in being a martyr than working on the REAL issues in their marriage.

MY weight and the weight of others has some bearing on our perception. Having "been there" and felt the humiliation first-hand gives you a bit more sensitivity. My father died from complications of "stomach stapling" surgery, and as a teenager, I remember being taunted about HIS weight, and remember how he hid from the world out of shame. Honestly, at the point of the surgery, his weight was no longer under his control. He even tried the liquid diets, and managed to gain on 800 calories a day! (And I do know he didn't cheat, since it was administered in a hospital.) He would rather take the chance that the surgery would kill him than face the pain and humiliation any longer.

Fast forward a decade to when MY weight started to soar... feeling the humiliation he died to avoid left a mark!

[Dean4Prez]

The thing you miss is that the opinions of others don't usually motivate people.
Really? Ask any successful plastic surgeon or salesperson of luxury goods. I'll bet he/she would disagree.

People who have been fat for a lifetime know it. They don't need to be told so. They (we) understand it intimately, and probably with no small amount of personal, daily horror.
External validation, motivation -- whatever you'd like to call it -- isn't usually very useful to an obese person.
No kidding! That's one reason (among others) that obese people get that way.

He has the facts. He understands the stakes. So yeah, the opinions of others shouldn't matter. They aren't really all that relevant.
To paraphrase G. B. Shaw, the ways of our tribe (overweight/obese people) are NOT the laws of psychology. Just because you or I are not motivated by the opinions of others to lose weight, or not gain it in the first place, does not mean that other people are not.

I don't know of anyone who has been motivated to lose or to make other decisions about self destructive behavior that way.
Imagine yourself in a nice restaurant, filled with fashionably slim people wearing expensive clothes. If the waiter asks a customer if she'd like to order dessert, she's probably not going to say "I really want that Death By Chocolate, but I worry about the opinions of others," in a loud, clear voice. No, she's probably just going to say, "No, thank you." How would you know what her motivations were in that case?

I've got a recovering alcoholic brother. He went to jail. He lost his driver's license. He hit pretty much rock bottom. I seriously doubt ridicule would have motivated him.
I agree. And I'm not going to say that any alcoholic would be all right if he/she were motivated by the opinions of others. Alcoholics have many things going on.

It seems that "motivation" and ridicule have gotten mixed up here somehow. Comments like "fat-assery" aren't going to motivate anyone to do anything.
Don't look at me, take that up with speakerguy. I know what I mean by motivation, and it usually doesn't have anything to do with comments like "fat-assery".

[mildwild]

I feel like I should have put an end date on this thread...I hope people are getting a lot off their chests.

-mildwild

[Dean4Prez]

I feel like I should have put an end date on this thread...I hope people are getting a lot off their chests.

-mildwild
Hey, you started it!

Which reminds me of this:
Basil Fawlty: Is something wrong?
4th German: Will you please stop talking about the war?
Basil Fawlty: Me? You started it!
4th German: We did not!
Basil Fawlty: Yes you did, you invaded Poland!

[potatofree]

<giggle> And I actually USED the term "fat-assery" today.... if it's not a real word, it should be!

See also:
half-assery
jack-assery
kick-assery
dumb-assery

[Dean4Prez]

I feel like I should have put an end date on this thread...I hope people are getting a lot off their chests.

-mildwild

I for one am grateful to you for starting this interesting thread. When I first joined lowcarber.org, I enjoyed reading the threads in the War Zone, but after a while they all seemed to have degenerated into "Did too!" "Did not!" and "You're a moron!" "I know you are, but what am I?!" A new topic is appreciated.

[Dean4Prez]

While the issue of Andy and Candy sparked this whole thread, I think there's a larger issue underlying the whole thing and there are a few things that bear discussing.
First: how much extra fat can you have on your body before someone can say that you are no longer acceptable or that you have "let yourself go"?
Acceptable to whom, and for what? If "Candy" packs on another 50 or so pounds, do you think that "Andy" should be expected to respond sexually to "Candy" as eagerly as he did when they were first married? If not, then isn't letting her know this when she's "only" 50 or so pounds overweight a better idea than waiting until she's completely unattractive (in his eyes)?

It seems to me that would be a very subjective thing
Yes, it is. What about it? In human relationships, "subjective" does not equal "invalid" (unless you're an Objectivist, in which case I think you've got bigger problems than being a few pounds overweight :) (kidding))

In our current society, the thin and beautiful receive validation while the overweight or average looking person does not; the booming plastic surgery business is testament to that, but does this mean we should all fall in with the majority and buy into this idea as valid?...The prevailing notion that carrying what someone else considers an unacceptable amount of extra pounds suddenly makes you a valid target for verbal abuse...
If you don't think the majority's view is valid, what do you care for their opinions at all, at all?

The underlying philosophy with that is only the thin and beautiful are worthy of validation/promotion/attention or even being hired as an employee and that a person's worth is determined solely by their appearance.
Not to belabor the obvious, but the relationship between husband and wife ("Andy" and "Candy" in this case) is different from the relationship between employer and employee. For example, if my boss said, "We're not going to promote you to an outside sales position until you lose 50 pounds, because we think our customers don't want to deal with a fat guy," I would think he was WAY out of line. OTOH, if my wife said, "I'm afraid that if you gain much more weight, I won't want to have sex with you anymore," I would take that to heart. Different relationships, different rules.

How would you all feel if Andy stood his wife up on a stage at the local mall and invited these same comments, even if Candy was willing to subject herself to such treatment?
I'll agree that if that Web site was a sincere attempt at an "intervention" (and not a joke), it was a remarkably clumsy one -- perhaps the stupidest thing I've ever seen a well-meaning husband do.
Are shaming/badgering/manipulating/threatening valid methods to get someone else to conform to your standards?
Yes, if they work :devil:

Are they effective and do the means justify the end? IMO, only the vain or the insecure are motivated by such methods. Ultimately, all of those methods are about one person controlling another and that is not what a healthy relationship should be based on. Should the love between a husband and wife be conditional or unconditional?
"Should" has to be one of the most useless words in the English language. Relationships are what they are. Whether "Andy" "should" feel just the same about his wife at 30 or 50 or 100 pounds over her wedding weight is irrelevant -- the fact is, he does feel differently about her. Do you think he should just pretend he doesn't care that she's slowly becoming less attractive to him, or is it better to bring it out in the open now? (leaving aside the question of whether that Web site was a good way to address the situation, because it wasn't, IMO).

Some people feel that homosexuals "should" not feel attraction to members of their own sex, but "should" rather be attracted to the opposite sex -- or at least pretend they're attracted to the opposite sex. Do you agree? Or do you think homosexuals ought to be able to be attracted to whatever they're attracted to? If the latter, why shouldn't "Andy" get the same consideration as a homosexual?

Ultimately, it's not so much an issue of whether or not Candy should drop the weight, it's really an issue about what determines a person's worth and makes them deserving of "validation" (whatever that may be), the love and support of their spouse or SO and the attitude that only thin and beautiful are deserving of such things.
"Deserving" -- that's right up there with "should" when it comes to utility, as Gandalf might have said to Frodo. Does "Candy" "deserve" to have "Andy" desire her if she's 100 pounds overweight? It's irrelevant -- the fact is, he probably won't.

[Dean4Prez]

Let's examine that. I'm in agreement that fat is under the control of the fat person, of course. We are all responsible for our condition, whatever that is. However, the degree to which fat people are "held responsible" when compared to other self destructive behaviors is extreme.
Debatable.

After all, smoking costs everyone monetarily in terms of insurance premiums, taxes, healthcare costs, and misery at least as much as fat does. But smokers aren't ridiculed in most every public forum.
And most restaurants aren't requiring overweight people to sit in a special "Fatties Section" where other patrons won't be put off their food by looking at us adding to our adipose. Nor is our "addiction" taxed for our sins the way tobacco is -- and a damn good thing for us low-carbers, too, as the nutritional establishment would probably want to give "healthful" low-fat products a big tax break and make us pay big time for our steaks and cream.
The same comparison could be made for alcoholics or drug users. Robert Downey Junior probably advanced his career with his addictions (he certainly didn't slow it down). If he'd done something similarly self destructive -- say, gain 100 pounds of fat -- would that have been the case?
Have you ever seen Nick Nolte mentioned in Jay Leno's monologue since his (Nolte's) drunk driving arrest last year? Leno has milked Nolte's mug shot at least as much as he's mentioned Monica Lewinsky.

I think if there's an organizing principle, it's that if one's self-destructive behavior makes one less attractive, the "comedians" come out of their kennels. Robert Downey Jr. might have drug problems, but he still looks pretty good -- Nick Nolte looked like crap. Result: Downey gets a pass, Nolte gets ridiculed. Smokers look pretty good (until they start coughing up chunks of lung in a hospital), but overweight people look less attractive. Result: "Yo' mama is so fat, when she sits around the house -- she sits AROUND THE HOUSE!"

Another self inflicted flaw might be someone who routinely drives carelessly and causes his face to be hideously burned in a crash, or puts himself into a wheelchair. Is it all right to ridicule that person because "he did it to himself?" it was under his control, too.
Whether it's "all right" or not, people who injure themselves in stupid ways get ridiculed too. See http://www.darwinawards.com or maybe http://www.fark.com (just for starters). The Germans even have a name for it: schadenfreude -- "Would that English were so honest!"

I'm not saying the fat aren't responsible for what they (we) have done to ourselves. I loathe the fat acceptance movement because it's predicated on a Big Lie. And I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for airlines to charge a person who takes up two seats for the privilege.
But I am saying that in significant ways, the fat tend to be held responsible, to pay the social price for that flaw than other self destructive behaviors.
Even if we are held responsible out of proportion to the harm we do, so what? Would it really make it easier for us to lose weight if comedians stopped making fun of us?

[Dean4Prez]

Just to add a bit of fuel to the fire here --
Take a look at the first letter in Dan Savage's column from June 18-24 2003
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0325/savage.php
(site may not be suitable for work)

Myself, I agree with Dan.

[Scarlet]

This whole thing is just so horrible to watch. To have all this displayed on a website is so hurtful and tasteless.

I feel sorry for Andy, he's obvuiously married to the wrong woman if the only thing that turns him on is her body. Does he not find her face, her movements, her energy etc. sexy? Chemistry is not reliant on body size, it's either there or it's not. 30lbs shouldn't effect chemistry that much, not like she's gained 100lbs!!!!!!!!

Sounds to me theres a lot more problems with this marriage than poor "Candy's" weight issues.

D'know if this is even real though, I mean who's called Candy and Andy?

[adkpam]

Whether he is concerned for her health or not, he doesn't SAY so. He is acting like a jerk, and it's jerky to open up this kind of discussion online.
What if he was losing his hair? Would it be a "get a toupee or I'm divorcing you" thing?
Perhaps they deserve each other.

[komireds]

The same comparison could be made for alcoholics or drug users. Robert Downey Junior probably advanced his career with his addictions (he certainly didn't slow it down). If he'd done something similarly self destructive -- say, gain 100 pounds of fat -- would that have been the case?

.


wow! Now, aint this the truth? I had a drinking/drug problem for years, but very few people saw the need call me on it. I have also struggled with my weight since I was about 9 years old and I could fill a book with all the things that people (friends, relatives, STRANGERS) have said--ridiculing, shaming and blaming me for my condition.

I have ceased the drinking/drugging--no one seems to notice much or care (which is fine with me), but I've also lost about 20 pounds and the amount of praise that I have recieved is staggering!

What is wrong with this picture? In my mind, my drinking/drugging had much more serious ramifications to my health than 40 extra pounds (not that that is healthy either) and yet the substance abuse is not seen as cause for ridicule. But just try being 40 pounds overweight and everyone and thier brother takes the opportunity to cut you down and tell you how to live! Including people who are heavy themselves. It's amazing!

[komireds]

I agree. And I'm not going to say that any alcoholic would be all right if he/she were motivated by the opinions of others. Alcoholics have many things going on.

.


wait a second.....so alcoholics (people who are drinking themselves to death) have more "going on" than severly obese folks (people who are eating themselves to death)?

They are two different means to a very destructive end. Why does one group deserve special treatment and more respect than the other?

[adkpam]

Why does one group deserve special treatment and more respect than the other?

I don't think eating too much is that different from drinking too much, gambling too much, even drugging too much. (Who has had a tooth out, bone surgery, or similar need for drugs? They aren't bad, they can just be used for bad purposes.)

I know I always blamed myself for my weight problems. Part of it was my fault, since I had a problem with emotional eating. But part of it was also the carb cycle, making me always hungry.

Any addiction has two components like this: the emotional side and the physical side. Gamblers can get hooked on the adrenalin rush of their large bets. Because we have emotional and physical sides which interact, all addictions have these two sides.

The way society regards various addictions is always subject to change. Right now, with the physical problems with carbs not recognized, overweight is seen as something entirely within someone's control, while drinking is seen as something totally out of someone's control. The truth for both is somewhere in between.

Society thinks it's entirely okay to have an intervention with a drug addict, "You must get help!" Etc. Does anyone do that for someone with a weight problem? It's interesting.

[potatofree]

Given the number of people who pointed out my weight to me, compared to the scant few who acknowledged my ex's alcoholism you'd almost swear they don't think you KNOW you're fat!

"Man, you've really put on the weight.."

Me: "OMIGOD! Thank you SO much for pointing that out to me! I never would have REALIZED that without you telling me... To think, the tighter, plus-sized clothes, breathing heavy after exertion of any kind, my doctor telling me my health is at risk..not being able to fit in the chair with ARMS in his waiting room...the Slim-Fast, the Weight Watchers...crying myself to sleep....none of that was a clue until YOU called me fat and snapped me to my senses! Thank you SO much!"

<ahem>

[Lisa N]

And most restaurants aren't requiring overweight people to sit in a special "Fatties Section"

Nope. We get to sit with everyone else and have total strangers feel free to comment on what we order and how much of it (loud enough for us to hear, of course) and our friends/family get to share in the embarassment with us.

I think if there's an organizing principle, it's that if one's self-destructive behavior makes one less attractive, the "comedians" come out of their kennels.

Which validates my earlier point that only the thin and beautiful are "worthy" of validation in our society no matter how destructive their behavior is.

Whether it's "all right" or not, people who injure themselves in stupid ways get ridiculed too.

There's a big difference between laughing at someone who is stupid enough to put a cup of hot coffee between her legs, get burned and then bring a lawsuit against the restaurant who sold her the coffee for not warning her (in writing, no less), that the coffee was served hot. I doubt too many people would find it acceptable behavior to go down to the local closed head injury or spinal cord injury clinic and mock the patients because they got they way due to their own carelessness (careless/impaired driving, extreme sports, etc...) and yet it's perfectly acceptable to mock someone who is overweight "because we did it to ourselves"? Besides...those with disabilities (self-inflicted or otherwise) are protected from discrimination by the Americans With Disabilities act...those that are overweight are not.

Would it really make it easier for us to lose weight if comedians stopped making fun of us?

The question isn't whether or not it would make it easier to lose weight if people stopped mocking us, although obviously it doesn't do much good or there would be a lot less fat people walking around and for those that have an emotional component to their overeating, it only contributes to the problem. The question is why should we have to wait until we get thin or BE thin to be treated with dignity and respect.

If you don't think the majority's view is valid, what do you care for their opinions at all, at all?

I don't care what their opinion is as long as they keep it to themselves. I do care when that opinion becomes action in the form of verbal abuse or discrimination.

For example, if my boss said, "We're not going to promote you to an outside sales position until you lose 50 pounds, because we think our customers don't want to deal with a fat guy," I would think he was WAY out of line.

Nope. They wouldn't likely say it to your face. Just behind your back while they're hiring someone else who is thinner and better looking for the position saying something like, "Well...we had a candidate who was more qualified, but he doesn't project the type of image we'd like to represent our company..."

[potatofree]

While all these posts are really interesting conversation, I guess, to go back on subject...

It doesn't make you a bad person to admit that your spouse's weight gain makes them less sexually attractive to you. That being said, a marriage shouldn't be contingent on your partner's size, since, presumably, you married for deeper reasons than physical appearance. Trying to bully or humiliate your spouse into changing is poor form, to say the least!

Should we lose weight to please our spouse? My knee-jerk reaction would be "NO"... only to make ourselves healthy and happy. Go a little deeper, though, and in the context of a loving relationship, I'd have to say "it depends"...

That may seem like a wishy-washy answer, but I quit smoking more out of love for my children than my own reasons. I love them enough to want to spare them the pain of losing another parent when I could do something to prevent it. In a way, I'm losing weight and gaining health more for them than myself... although it didn't happen until I was ready... no amount of ridicule would have made it happen any faster.

What it all boils down to for me is the spirit of the whole thing. He comes off as a shallow jerk.

[Dean4Prez]

While all these posts are really interesting conversation, I guess, to go back on subject...

It doesn't make you a bad person to admit that your spouse's weight gain makes them less sexually attractive to you. That being said, a marriage shouldn't be contingent on your partner's size, since, presumably, you married for deeper reasons than physical appearance.
When you were at or near your maximum weight, would you have been willing to allow your husband to have sex with someone in shape, as long as he promised to not fall in love with her, but only be attracted to her on the physical level? After all, marriage is about more important things than shallow, superficial physical attraction, right? :devil:

Trying to bully or humiliate your spouse into changing is poor form, to say the least!
I agree. Unless nothing else works, that is -- then bring on the bullying or humiliation. Or bail, and find someone who will take care of him/herself, someone more to your liking, and let the ex look for someone who doesn't care what her/his spouse looks like. But I think if you care enough about someone to marry them in the first place, you ought to care enough to bully or humiliate -- if that's what it takes to get them to make a change that's pleasing to you and beneficial to his/her health.

Should we lose weight to please our spouse? My knee-jerk reaction would be "NO"... only to make ourselves healthy and happy. Go a little deeper, though, and in the context of a loving relationship, I'd have to say "it depends"...
That may seem like a wishy-washy answer, but I quit smoking more out of love for my children than my own reasons. I love them enough to want to spare them the pain of losing another parent when I could do something to prevent it. In a way, I'm losing weight and gaining health more for them than myself...
Sometimes, that's what the spouse or kids are for -- to get you to do something good that you wouldn't do for yourself.

[Dean4Prez]

Well, I'm guessing that if I was married to someone who had an accident, I wouldn't see that as being something he could control. And in that situation, I'm sure that I would just be happy he was alive. I don't think that has anything to do with the fact that I don't think its right not to do what you can to maintain yourself intellectually, spiritually and physically for your spouse. And that would include both parties. To me, its a sign of respect for your spouse and for yourself. And I don't think I would be honest if I said that if I found that my spouse didn't respect himself, and by extension, me, that it might figure into my level of attraction for him. I would not, of course, humiliate him. But it would definitely be something I would tactfully bring up.

Amen, sister! :agree: In my opinion, marriage should be about bringing out the best you have to offer. Spending hours a week sitting on the couch watching football or soap operas when you might be improving your mind does not count as bringing out your best. Neither does letting yourself go physically, gaining weight year by year, until you get to the point where stomach stapling starts to look like a good idea. Marriage should be about two* people becoming more than either could be alone -- not a long, slow roll downhill from one's physical and mental peak.

*Or more if you can manage it -- I'm not prejudiced. But making it happen with just two is hard enough for most of us.

[chargeit]

My husband did and still does say to me " it doesn't matter how you look I still love you " But for me I want to lose the weight I'm tired of huffing and puffing as I walk up the steps or down the street. Then there are times (not often) I think he does mention my weight because he thinks that will get me motivated again.
(:exclm:wrong ! just makes me feel worse and I pig out. ) As long as he is supportive I'm happy. We will be celebrating our 32nd wedding anniversary on Thursday and I have had more gain than loss. :Party:

Then I think about my sister who is married to an A--! I have heard that he has told her if she gains weight he will leave her . He has also told her if she ever cuts her hair he would also leave. From what I understand she had her hair trimmed and he wouldn't talk to her for 3 weeks. To me that is a Major. A-- :bash:

[Scarlet]

[QUOTE=Dean4PrezUnless nothing else works, that is -- then bring on the bullying or humiliation. Or bail, and find someone who will take care of him/herself, someone more to your liking, and let the ex look for someone who doesn't care what her/his spouse looks like. But I think if you care enough about someone to marry them in the first place, you ought to care enough to bully or humiliate -- if that's what it takes to get them to make a change that's pleasing to you and beneficial to his/her health.QUOTE]

I hope for her sake that your gf never gains weight or does something that's not exactly to your liking if bullying and humiliation are what you deem acceptable treatment of someone you're suppossed to love!! You're obviously not familiar with the concept of unconditional love!!

I mean c'mon "If you care enough about someone to marry them in the first place, you ought to care enough to bully or humiliate". What a lovely view of relationships you have!!!!

[adkpam]

you ought to care enough to bully or humiliate.

No, I disagree strongly. There's NEVER a good reason to bully or humiliate anyone.

After all, if it worked, none of us with unsupportive families would still have this problem, right?

[scorpio381]

Marriage should be about two* people becoming more than either could be alone -- not a long, slow roll downhill from one's physical and mental peak.

*Or more if you can manage it -- I'm not prejudiced. But making it happen with just two is hard enough for most of us.

Am I understanding your comment correctly? Do you advocate having more than one partner in marriage?

[kyrasdad]

No, I disagree strongly. There's NEVER a good reason to bully or humiliate anyone. After all, if it worked, none of us with unsupportive families would still have this problem, right?

Not to mention that it is usually ineffective to bully someone. I doubt that the person who wrote that has ever had any success changing anyone's behavior through humiliation & bullying. (Dean4Prez can correct me if he has; I don't expect to see a correction).

Saying that you can alter a fat person's behavior by humiliating them is rather absurd: fat people live their entire lives with built-in humiliation and ridicule. Adding more ain't going to influence them. It never did me, it just made me hate those who did it. Nothing ever really works until someone makes the decision on his own, anyway. You really cannot change people.

I cannot imagine a situation where humiliation would work on my wife, even if I had the heart to employ it. It isn't conceivable to me that I'd ever do it, that I could be that cruel, even to a noble end.

[gotbeer]

Could be just a glitch, but yahoo is now reporting that the site http://geocities.com/thin_or_fat cannot be found.

[doreen T]

Could be just a glitch, but yahoo is now reporting that the site http://geocities.com/thin_or_fat cannot be found.
I Googled the geocities thin_or_fat site, and came to THIS site .. www.geocities.com/miatauniverse/ .. which has this statement on its home page Please pardon changes being made after this page was damaged by hackers.
I then Googled andyandcandy (the username for the person who posted the message asking people to go to their geocities site to cast a vote) ... came up with quite a few results for the post, which was cut & pasted to a number of pub.ezboards .. including a porn site. http://www.google.ca/search?q=andyandcandy&btnG=Google+Search&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8




Doreen

[Lisa N]

I cannot imagine a situation where humiliation would work on my wife, even if I had the heart to employ it. It isn't conceivable to me that I'd ever do it, that I could be that cruel, even to a noble end.

There is a term for bullying, threatening and/or humiliating another person that you are involved in a relationship with. It's called abuse and while I know that my DH would never do this to me, I can guarantee you that the relationship would not last long if he did. I have more self-respect than to allow another person who is supposed to love me unconditionally (that is, in effect, what you are promising with those marriage vows you take) abuse me or allow my daughters to witness me allowing myself to be treated with anything less than respect.

[potatofree]

When you were at or near your maximum weight, would you have been willing to allow your husband to have sex with someone in shape, as long as he promised to not fall in love with her, but only be attracted to her on the physical level? After all, marriage is about more important things than shallow, superficial physical attraction, right? :devil:

All I said was it was not a charcter flaw to ADMIT diminishing attraction..not ACTING on it. The vows say "keep the only unto him/her"...

I agree. Unless nothing else works, that is -- then bring on the bullying or humiliation. Or bail, and find someone who will take care of him/herself, someone more to your liking, and let the ex look for someone who doesn't care what her/his spouse looks like. But I think if you care enough about someone to marry them in the first place, you ought to care enough to bully or humiliate -- if that's what it takes to get them to make a change that's pleasing to you and beneficial to his/her health.
Sometimes, that's what the spouse or kids are for -- to get you to do something good that you wouldn't do for yourself.

There's a big diference, IMO, between an ultimatum (when all discussion fails) and humiliation and bullying. An ultimatum is stating clearly what you can and can not live with, not a personal attack. In the case of my ex's drinking and cheating, it got to the point of "I can't continue to watch you destroy yourself and have you abuse me and the children. I need you to make a choice. Rehab or divorce." He chose divorce. His drinking killed him.

Do you really think calling him names and trying to embarass him publicly would have helped when he didn't care about his own children any more?

I loved him enough to marry him. I loved my kids and myself enough to "bail".


If he made the case that either I lose weight, or he'd leave me, I honestly don't know what I'd do. I'd have been insulted, and if I wasn't at the point of being able to see the need for change, I'd likely have reacted the same way he did to my ultimatum about his drinking... and I DO know that humiliation and bullying didn't help. He tried it.

[gotbeer]

Is every request for a change a humiliation?

I've known hypersensitive and hateful women who insulted me repeatedly, and yet crumbled into tears and rage at even my gentlest constructive request for them to modify something. (I never did ask for her to lose the 100 lbs she gained in the 3 years we were together because there is no way I know of to "communicate" that without causing an explosion. After our sex life died, and our friendship died, we broke up instead.)

Just about every guy ought to know that the query "does this make me look fat?" is a loaded question, fraught with danger, by someone who is out to pick a fight.

I think "unconditional love" ought to work BOTH ways. If I ask a lover for something, and she unconditionally loves me, she ought to fall all over herself getting it accomplished - just as the reverse ought to be true as well. "Unconditional love" is not a lazy excuse to avoid some difficult but doable goal. Using it as such an excuse cheapens it into insignificance.

[Lisa N]

Is every request for a change a humiliation?

No, it isn't. Oinking at someone every time they eat and calling them a fat slob/pig/disgusting at every opportunity is. Commenting on how fat and disgusting they've gotten in the presence of friends and family (or total strangers for that matter) is.


I think "unconditional love" ought to work BOTH ways. If I ask a lover for something, and she unconditionally loves me, she ought to fall all over herself getting it accomplished - just as the reverse ought to be true as well.

I think you may have a different understanding of unconditional love than I do. Unconditional love means that you love someone no matter what. It's given willingly and freely with no strings attached, no having to meet your demands/requests, to receive that love.

Now, out of consideration and respect, I don't have a problem with my DH making a reasonable request of me for change (note...a request, not a demand with an ultimatum following). But as far as being willing to move heaven an earth to meet that request, ask yourself if you would be willing to do that if you felt that a) the request was unreasonable or b) you were being asked to give something up that you really loved like going out with a particular buddy because your SO doesn't like them or having a couple of beers every night because your SO is against drinking alcohol.
Another example...let's say that my DH feels that my doing low carb is unhealthy (he doesn't) and asks me to go back to the ADA diet that I was following before. Should I be willing to fall all over myself to comply?

[mildwild]

Hey all, so....

As far as every request for a change being humiliating I would have to say it all depends on how much self confidence you have. Someone with only a little self-esteem can be brought down mighty quickly with a few little words (I would know).

As for my SO making a reasonable request of me and would I follow through, well, it's circumstances that makes any request reasonable or not. As for doing it, if it's reasonable, I would in a heart beat and not expect anything in return, to me that is unconditional love and a healthy relationship (well, along with trust and loyalty...)

If I were to perform all his requests, reasonable or not, this would mean some lack in my own character, and how can I love him unconditionally when I cannot love myself that way first?

In my opinion; I voted for thin. I would lose the weight.

The (reasonable in my opinion) request did not harm anyone. If I were to say no and he were to leave, it wasn't meant to be. If I say yes and he stays, he accepts me for who I am, and the fact that I know he would like me to lose weight may cause me to act on that issue in the future, without pressure.

It's a healthy choice to be thin, losing weight brings not only beauty (we all know this). I'm sure if losing weight were as simple as getting changed, then asking his wife to lose weight could be the same as asking her to dress more appropriately for his work's barbeque. Some people take offence (you see them on Jerry Springer) and others take advice or, in this case, "requests."

It's all about give an take anyway. Reach a compromise, that's healthy, and fair.

As for the whole site being a hoax...most likely was, but that doesn't really matter...it ain't something ta get all hung up over.

I wish you all the best with your attempts at better health. If atkins brought only better health and no weight loss, do you think this many people would be doing it?

-mildwild

THIS IS ALL IMHO... :)

[Dean4Prez]

wait a second.....so alcoholics (people who are drinking themselves to death) have more "going on" than severly obese folks (people who are eating themselves to death)?

They are two different means to a very destructive end. Why does one group deserve special treatment and more respect than the other?

Were you on the "Twinkie Defense" jury? Simple carbohydrates may be addictive, but they don't affect one's judgement the way alcohol and some drugs do. Have you ever heard of a young woman having sex with someone she wouldn't have otherwise after having a second piece of pie? (If you have and if she's cute, let me know -- I want to buy her some Sara Lee :) ) Are there any groups of alcoholics anywhere who have "planned binges" the way some of us have "planned cheats" (e.g. for Thanksgiving)? Until the police start doing roadside Dextrostix tests and taking people to jail for having an open container of Ding-Dongs on the front seat, I think alcoholism should definitely be treated differently ("special treatment" if you like) from "carb addiction."

As for "more respect," I just don't feel I have enough experience with alcoholism to draw any conclusions about it.

[potatofree]

Are there groups of alcoholics that have planned binges? You bet there are! After not only dealing with a few alcoholics in my family, I've worked in two different bars... One guy has a really big bender with the reasoning that his kids are about to "throw him in the tank" again..better have fun NOW.

There's another old man who saves it up all week, and Friday night is his "night off". He's perfectly reasonable all week... probably only sneaking a nip or two for an "eyeopener". Friday night is his free-for-all, since "You can't be an alcoholic if you only get drunk once a week."

Anyone who's never at the mercy of binge behavior probably wouldn't understand the similarities between the two. No, carbs are not intoxicating, per se, but if you've ever been around a bulimic, or God forbid, have bulimia you could describe the pull of the sugar and forbidden foods in similar language. In the midst of a binge, a bulimic has the same sense of suspended time, euphoria, the drive to continue eating even though it's no longer pleasurable...that "eat 'til it's gone" feeling.

[Dean4Prez]

I hope for her sake that your gf never gains weight or does something that's not exactly to your liking if bullying and humiliation are what you deem acceptable treatment of someone you're suppossed to love!!
Well, if my girlfriend gained a significant amount of weight for no good reason, I might stop her midway through dessert sometime and say something like, "Tell me -- is the pleasure you'll get from finishing that more important to you than the pleasure I get from your healthy body?" If she continued eating after that, I would give serious consideration to dumping her so she could find herself a man that likes fat chicks. I wouldn't go any farther than that to try to change her behavior. A relationship with a girlfriend is disposable -- there are plenty more fish in the sea.

But if my wife (11 years on December 19) were to gain an unhealthy amount of weight for no good reason, I would do what I needed to get her to start losing it, starting with asking nicely and progressing all the way to bullying or humiliation if necessary and if I thought it would do any good. Marriages are NOT disposable.

Of course, the time she gained about 50 pounds (for a good reason -- she was suffering from migraine headaches that kept her on the couch for months), I didn't even have to ask her to start losing weight. She knows how much I enjoy her body when it's healthy, and my enjoyment and happiness is important to her. And her enjoyment and happiness is important to me, by the way.

You're obviously not familiar with the concept of unconditional love!!
Unconditional love? Yeah, that's what my wife's ex-husband expected from her when he, ahem, started to gain weight and also allowed his parents to interfere with his marriage. She's been married to me a lot longer than she was married to him.

Unconditional love is for children, and immature "adults" who didn't get enough of it in their childhoods -- and that's showbiz, kid.

I mean c'mon "If you care enough about someone to marry them in the first place, you ought to care enough to bully or humiliate". What a lovely view of relationships you have!!!!
It's called Tough Love. Sometimes it's necessary. I don't think it will ever be necessary in our marriage, but I'm willing to try it if nothing else I tried worked.

[kyrasdad]

The thing is, Dean, I'm guessing the reality is that it wouldn't work at all. People don't tend to respond to that. You would need to find a better way.

[Dean4Prez]

Not to mention that it is usually ineffective to bully someone.I just have this vision of a psychology B.A. grad in line on the first day of boot camp. "Excuse me? Sergeant? I know you mean well, but it's usually ineffective to bully and humiliate someone." :)

I doubt that the person who wrote that has ever had any success changing anyone's behavior through humiliation & bullying. (Dean4Prez can correct me if he has; I don't expect to see a correction).
I've never needed to; my wife and I are adults (for the most part), not arrested adolescents. However, I've seen bullying and humiliation work to change people's behavior. I've never been in the military (flunked the physical when I was at my fittest), but back in the '80s I did est -- I remember one est trainer, a petite Japanese woman who could have intimidated R. Lee Ermey. My wife tells me that her parents bullied her into always cleaning her plate before leaving the table -- does that ring a bell with anyone here?

You really cannot change people.
Yeah, all the incompetent therapists agree.

I cannot imagine a situation where humiliation would work on my wife, even if I had the heart to employ it. It isn't conceivable to me that I'd ever do it, that I could be that cruel, even to a noble end.
I don't think there's any situation where it would work on my wife either, and I'm not sure I would be successful if I got into a situation where I'd exhausted all the alternatives and was left with bullying or humiliation as my only alternatives to leaving her. But it's inconceivable to me that I wouldn't even TRY.

[mildwild]

Humiliation is what got me where I am right now...just to let you guys know.

I worked at a walmart, and went back after having quit about 3-4 months earlier. One of the girls I worked with, in front of plenty of customers and other ex-coworkers and supervisors says to me "you've gained weight haven't you, you got fat." It was just humiliating enough to work. Mind you it was only about 20 lbs, but that does make a difference, it was humiliating and that day things changed.

That was in October.

-mildwild

[Plagiomom]

Hi Dean,

I'm curious - you said if your wife gained weight for no good reason that you would stoop to humiliation. Are you familiar with every medical condition that cause problems with weight? How would feel if you were oinking at your wife, and then discovered years later that there was a physical cause for her weight gain? Chances are it probably would be too late, at that point, to put the pieces of your marriage together.

After I married my husband, it could be construed as I "let myself go". All sorts of horrible things were happening to my body, but the weight was the most apparent. The first doctor I went to, told me I was a hypocondriac and that if I would just lose weight I would feel better. DUH! At that point, judging by what I've read, my husband should have humiliated and degraded me - because after all, there was nothing wrong with me.

It turned out after switching doctors I was diagnosed with PCOS - a hormonal condition which is very real, but for some reason many doctors (especially male doctors) don't "believe" in it. Now we know what's wrong, everything should be fine, right? Wrong! Things were still spiraling out of control and my body was still turning against me. But I was under the care of a physician, I was being treated, so I guess this would have been a good time for my husband to start oinking at me and debasing me as a human to make me lose weight? Or maybe he should have walked out, since I obviously didn't respect him because of my weight gain?

As it turned out a year or so later I was diagnosed with 2 more hormonal type disorders - Late Onset Adrenal Hyperplasia, and Hypothyroid. And I was also diagnosed with Insulin Resistance which could turn to diabetes.

If you were to look at me, I do not convey a person who has health issues. If you were to look at me, you would see a woman who "let herself go". Things are not always what they appear on the outside. I have 3 disorders that cause weight gain, and I'm on hormone replacement drugs which also cause weight gain, not even touching on all the OTHER things that these disorders cause. This has been an ongoing thing for my husband and I for 6 years (we've been married for 7)! If my husband had turned to the tactics you mentioned, his butt would have been sitting on the corner with all his stuff long ago...and there would have been no chance of "gee honey, I'm sorry, I didn't know that you had medical problems. I just did it because I thought you were 'letting yourself go!' and I HAD to try something!"

It makes no sense to me that if your wife gained weight due to a medical problem, that you would be all kind and caring - but if there was no medical problem you would humiliate her so that she would lose weight. How would you KNOW at what point it would be okay to start the bullying? Would you make her go to a doctor, get the all clear then start the debasing? What if the doctor was a quack, like the first one I saw? Do you think, if a medical problem was found that you could take it all back after years of torment and she would understand?

I'm curious how people who think humiliation is okay would handle something like this. It looks like many people think this is a black and white issue - but I've been through the medical end, and it's not always that way, and can take a long time to figure out what the heck is going on. It's not like you could look at me and say "ooooh, she has adrenal hyperplasia, PCOS and hypothyroid, and is insulin resistant, no wonder she has problems with weight!" and it's definitely not something that you would be able to tell with your wife either - all you would see is her porking up, and having other weird problems which many doctors may not recongnize as actual symptoms to "uncommon" disorders.

[kyrasdad]

I just have this vision of a psychology B.A. grad in line on the first day of boot camp. "Excuse me? Sergeant? I know you mean well, but it's usually ineffective to bully and humiliate someone." :)

Talk about your apples and your oranges. Organizational behavior is, as you probably know, quite a lot different than interpersonal behavior. And of course, the military does other things within that context than humiliate. They break down to build up, but it's systematic. It is designed to a great degree to bond the soldiers to each other. You aren't talking about the same dynamic as a 1-1 relationship.

Yeah, all the incompetent therapists agree.

I'll stand by that. People have to decide to change themselves. You can influence that. You can't do it for them. Therapists are the same, although perhaps better trained at it.

I don't think there's any situation where it would work on my wife either, and I'm not sure I would be successful if I got into a situation where I'd exhausted all the alternatives and was left with bullying or humiliation as my only alternatives to leaving her. But it's inconceivable to me that I wouldn't even TRY.

You'd fail most likely. You would do more damage than good. I've said before that fat people are not easily moved by humiliation or ridicule. If they have been longterm fat, they have had plenty of both.

[komireds]

As for "more respect," I just don't feel I have enough experience with alcoholism to draw any conclusions about it.


well, you seem to have drawn many conclusions anyway....interesting that this comment came AFTER you went on the "twinkie defense" diatribe.... :wiggle:

[tholian8]

There's another old man who saves it up all week, and Friday night is his "night off". He's perfectly reasonable all week... probably only sneaking a nip or two for an "eyeopener". Friday night is his free-for-all, since "You can't be an alcoholic if you only get drunk once a week."

He might not even be sneaking anything. In my volunteer work with harm reduction, I've met plenty of people who abstained completely from their substance of choice all week, then had a blowout on Friday or Saturday, and returned to abstinence until the next weekend.

Emily

[gotbeer]

(from Lisa on the previous page)
I think you may have a different understanding of unconditional love than I do. Unconditional love means that you love someone no matter what. It's given willingly and freely with no strings attached, no having to meet your demands/requests, to receive that love.
I'm not sure such a thing as your unconditional love actually exists within a sane relationship. Ask yourself - would you still unconditionally love your SO (1) if he cheated on you? (2) Abused you or your kids? (3) Committed a heinous crime?

I rather doubt it - though we do have a stunning example of such love in Wanda Barzee, who stuck by her man, Brian David Mitchell, through it all. (They are the couple accused in the Elizabeth Smart abduction.) Now, you can brush off her actions as demented or whatever, but they are also reflect an extreme emotional commitment so perfect that it appeared to have no conditions whatsoever. She asked for no fidelity, no home, no income, no adherence to the law, no nothing, and she seems to have complied with his will on everything.

Unconditionally.

...I don't have a problem with my DH making a reasonable request of me for change...
Ah, our list of conditions now grows to 4:

1. I'll love you only if you are faithful.
2. I'll love you only if you are non-abusive to me and my kids.
3. I'll love you only if you don't commit a heinous crime.
4. I'll love you only if your requests are reasonable.

These a sane, reasonable expectations in most relationships, but they are still conditions. The love in that relationship is therefore conditional - NOT unconditional.

If you really think about it honestly, I'll bet you could find dozens, if not hundreds of factors underlying your love for your SO. Some transgressions of these conditions might be instantly fatal (cheating), others might be merely corrosive to the relationship in varying degrees, but all of them could lead to the demise of the relationship.

So, given that you have all these conditions, why not allow your SO to have one of his own? Like, "stay thin" or "lose weight"? Isn't that a bit more reasonable than "hey, let's go kidnap a new 14-year old for me to marry, too"?

Another example...let's say that my DH feels that my doing low carb is unhealthy (he doesn't) and asks me to go back to the ADA diet that I was following before. Should I be willing to fall all over myself to comply?
If your love is unconditional, it sure as hell is. Wanda Barzee would've complied in a heartbeat - but then, her love was unconditional. Your love comes with conditions, so, happily, you need not comply.

[komireds]

So, given that you have all these conditions, why not allow your SO to have one of his own? Like, "stay thin" or "lose weight"? Isn't that a bit more reasonable than "hey, let's go kidnap a new 14-year old for me to marry, too"?


.


Ha ha ha! Ok, you and you alone brought that comparison up, so this rhetorical question really carries no weight in this argument. Any sane individual would say that it is "more" reasonable to ask someone to lose weight than to ask someone to commit a felony, but no one suggested that.

Unconditional love debate aside, I DO NOT think it is reasonable for my SO to expect me to conform to his or her idea of what I should look like. But that's just me..and my feelings about that are reflected in who I choose to date (i.e. I only date folks who share similar ideas regarding respect and love).

[gotbeer]

Ok, you and you alone brought that comparison up, so this rhetorical question really carries no weight in this argument.
Sure it does - what they suggested was that unconditional love somehow is an excuse to ignore a loved one's desires. My point is that their love is actually conditional after all, and so they ought to be open to the reasonable counter-conditions.

Still don't buy it? Here is a further list of The Conditions of Unconditional Love. Take your pick - if NONE of these conditions exists in your relationship, then yours may be a true unconditional love.

(Adapted from the book "Against Love", by Laura Kipnis. Any errors are likely my typos - there is no link because I typed them in myself.)

You can't leave the house without saying where you're going. You can't not say what time you will return. You can't stay out past midnight, or 11, or 10, or dinnertime, or not come right home after work. You can't go out when the other person feels like staying home. You can't go to parties alone. You can't go out just to go out, because you can't not be considerate of the other person's worries about where you are, or their natural insecurities that you're not where you should be, or about where you should be instead. You can't make plans without consulting the other person, particularly not evenings and weekends, or make decisions about leisure time usage without a consultation.

You can't be a slob. You can't do less than 50 percent around the house, even if the other person wants to do 100 percent to 200 percent more housecleaning than you find necessary or even reasonable. You can't leave your (pick one) books, tissues, shoes, makeup, mail, underwear, work, sewing stuff, or pornography lying around the house. You can't smoke, or you can't smoke in the house, or you can't leave cigarettes in cups. You can't amass more knickknacks than the other person finds tolerable - likewise sports paraphernalia, Fiestaware, or Daffy Duck collectibles.

You can't leave the dishes for later, wash the dishes badly, not use soap, drink straight from the container, make crumbs without wiping them up (now, not later), or load the dishwasher according to the method that seems most sensible to you. You can't use dishes directly out of the dishwasher without unloading the whole thing. You can't accumulate things that you think you might use someday if the other person thinks you won't. You can't throw wet clothes in the laundry hamper. You can't have a comfortable desk, because it doesn't fit the decor. You can't not notice whether the house is neat or messy. You can't not share responsibility for domestic decisions the other person has made that you've gone along with to be nice but don't really care about. You can't hire a house cleaner, because your mate is a socialist and can't live with the idea.

You can't leave the bathroom door open; it's offensive. You can't leave the bathroom door closed; they need to get in. You can't enter without knocking. You can't leave the toilet seat up. You can't read on the john without commentary. You can't leave bloody things in the bathroom wastebasket. You can't leave female hygiene products out. You can't wash your dirty hands in the kitchen sink. You have to load the toilet paper "over" instead of "under". You're not allowed to pay no attention to what you'd simply rather ignore: your own nose hair, underarm hair, or toenails. You can't not make the bed. You can't not express appreciation when the other person makes the bed, even if you don't care. You can't sleep apart, you can't go to bed at different times, you can't fall asleep on the couch without getting woken up to go to bed. You can't eat in bed. You can't get out of bed right away after sex. You can't have insomnia without being grilled about what's really bothering you. You can't turn the air conditioner up as far as you want. You can't sleep late if the other person wants to get up early. Or you can't sleep late because it is a sign of moral turpitude.

You can't watch soap operas without getting made fun of. You can't watch infomercials, or the pregame show, or Martha Stewart, or shows in which men are humiliated in front of women or are made to play the buffoon. You can't watch porn. You can't leave CNN on as background. You can't psychologically withdraw into sports even if it's your only mode of anxiety release. You can't listen to Bob Dylan or other excesses of your youth. You can't go out to play pinball; it's regressive. You can't smoke pot. You can't drink during the day, even on weekends. You can't take naps when the other person is home because the mate feels leisure time should be shared. You can't work when you are supposed to be relaxing. You can't spend too much time on the computer. And stay out of those chat rooms! You can't have email flirtations, even if innocent. You can't play computer solitaire because the clicking drives the other person crazy. You can't talk on the phone when they're home working. You can't talk on the phone when they're in the room without them commenting on the conversation, or trying to talk to you at the same time. Your best friend can't call you after 10. You can't read without them starting to talk, and you're not allowed to read when they are talking to you. You can't not pay attention to their presence.

You can't be impulsive, self-absorbed, or distracted. You can't take risks, unless they're agreed-upon risks. You can't just quit your job in a huff. You can't make unilateral career decisions, or change jobs without extensive discussion and negotiation. You can't have your own bank account. You can't make major purchases alone, or spend money on things the other person considers excesses; you can't blow your money because you are in a really bad mood, and you can't be in a bad mood without being required to explain it. You can't have secrets - about money or anything else.

You can't eat what you want. You can't skip meals. You can't eat alone. You can't break your diet. You can't eat butter if they're monitoring your cholesterol. You can't cook cauliflower even if you don't expect the other person to eat it. You can't use enough salt to give the food some flavor without it being seen as a criticism of their cooking. You can't refuse to share your entree when dining out, or order what you want without negotiations far surpassing the Oslo Accords. You can't blow your nose at the table. You can't read the news