should his wife lose weight for him?

[mildwild]

THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS!!! This is Andy and Candy, they were married and she was hot on the honey moon and now, 5 years later, she's gained a few pounds. Anyway, read the first link and follow it or just click on the second...could this be some social experiment???

http://forums.about.com/ab-menshealth/messages/?msg=133

http://www.geocities.com/thin_or_fat/

[LadyBelle]

It could be a joke, you never know.

If he is concerned about her health, then that is a valid concern to have for a spouse. I've learned on bulliten boards men aren't always the best at expressing themselves clearly.

If it is a matter though that he is just shallow and wants her to lose for looks while she is perfectly happy at her current weight, then he should learn that respect is an important part of marrige. If she only has 30 pounds to lose to get back to her honeymoon weight, she could verywell still be within a healthy weight range for her body.

If they have been married for 5 years, there must be something besides just looks keeping them together. I don't think even the most shallow people could keep from annoying the heck out of each other unless there is something they have in common. Hopefully the bulliten board thing is more of a joke between them just to see how people would vote.

[Scarlet]

If it's a joke it's not a funny one. God that is messed up.

[speakerguy]

Being the first person to post to this thread with a penis, I'd have to say "Go Andy!". If I married a girl and then porked up, I'd expect the same.

[Lisa N]

Personal opinion...those who marry strictly for looks or money, earn whatever they get. :rolleyes:
Maybe they should just take this part out of the marriage vows:
"..For better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, 'til death do you part.." since a lot of folks just don't seem to take that seriously anymore and just want to bail at the first sign of trouble or something that they don't like about the other person (like, God forbid, gaining a few pounds).
My DH is a lot heavier (probably 50 pounds or so) than when I married him 18 years ago. While I would like to see him drop some of that weight, it's out of concern for his health since he has a strong family history of diabetes and heart disease and he's a strong candidate for both with where he carries his weight (primarly in his abdomen). If he doesn't, well...I'm not about to kick him to the curb. I didn't marry him because he was thin, I married him because he's a great guy. Looks don't last forever. Personality does. :)

[J.J.]

Incredible! If I were Candy I'd be embarrassed to tears having a husband that would do such a thing!!!

No one should pressure another to lose weight, that just makes matters worse. Certainly she would look and feel better about herself, but what if the tables were turned? He would be filing for a divorce!!!!

[potatofree]

She should have a "penile implant" site... either he gets a couple of inches put on it, or she'll leave...

[mildwild]

potatofree HA!!! that's perfect, I'll have to remember that for my friends who have that problem...my bf is perfect (well....he has his moments), he says he thinks it's great that I'm trying to lose weight but just in case it doesn't work out for me he tells me all the time it's not a big deal, he thinks I'm beautiful...When I showed him this site he just nodded his head in shame and looked away (he agrees she should lose weight for her health but thinks Andy is an ass)...he's such a sweety...

[addicted2s]

Nice one Potatofree

[ItsTheWooo]

Being the first person to post to this thread with a penis, I'd have to say "Go Andy!". If I married a girl and then porked up, I'd expect the same.
For a man who at one time weighed in at 325 pounds, and was most decidedly morbidly obese, you display a shocking shallowness, callousness, disrespect, and insensitivity to those who may struggle with weight. Shame on you. Too many men view women as creatures to stare at -- not humans with feelings and needs.

The girl before was very young, and very thin. Now she gained only about 30 pounds... probably with age. He can't possibly expect her to stay the way she was. Looks are fleeting. Besides, she is not hugely fat now, not even clinically obese really as before she was underweight. I think she should lose weight for her, not to impress her husband. I am sure her husband has a few gray hairs, added a few pounds, and most DEFINITELY probably stopped the honeymoon romantic treatment. I seriously doubt he would treat her this way if he had to trick... oops, I'm sorry, propose marriage to her.

Look the bottom line is this. People are not perfect, women were not put on this earth to entertain men, and guess what a marriage should be based on much more than superficial looks.

If I was Candy, I would dump that jerk without hesitation.

[MyJourney]

I agree ItsTheWooo!

Candy should lose weight if she wants to when she is ready to and having that type of pressure on her doesnt make things easy on her and makes her husband look like a jerk.

If he wants her to lose weight he can be supportive and make suggestions like lets join a gym and go together or perhaps make options for healthier choices for both of them.

My ex boyfriend used to encourage me to lose weight after I gained 100 lbs while we were together in 1 year. He was supportive of me but would sit around and eat chinese food and pizza while I was trying to eat steamed something or another all the time and it became really difficult to do it alone.

There are better ways to go about this and many of those comments were hurtful and disgusting.

Why should a man make a woman feel ugly and unattractive it makes her even worse because she feels worse about herself and it lowers her self esteem.

[kyrasdad]

Well, just looking at the pics to me, it's pretty obvious that the fat photo has been retouched. I dunno if that makes it bogus or not, but from the tone of the site and the bogus pics, I tend to think so.

[huntress]

This is insult to us all!!!! That a.. Is saying she has control over her weight and can lose and gain at will, as if, how many of you know someone like that none! Who chooses to gain weight! I sure didn't, Couldn't stop it. Tried everything Saw Doctor after doctor This is the only way to lose. If this is real I really feel for her, Bet she is getting " you have such a pretty face now if you would only lose weight" Lecture, and a lot of other BS.

Thats my vent sorry this hit too close to home!! I say it dosn't bother me but I guess the scar is still open.

Diane

[Lisa N]

I'm not convinced that this is really legit, but if it is, wow....some of those comments are really harsh! I can't imagine my husband putting up with some of the things that have been said to Candy on this site, let alone laughing at it and saying "see...they think you need to lose weight!".
Fat or not, if someone were to say some of the things to my face that have been said to Candy on this site in the presence of my DH, they'd be laid out on the floor unconscious and it would be a 50/50 bet as to which of us would be responsible for it.
At the very minimum, I think Andy is a total jerk for subjecting his wife to such comments on purpose.
I do know of a way that Candy can lose almost 200 pounds of ugly weight in a hurry, though...d-i-v-o-r-c-e. :rolleyes:
If this is really legit, I think she should lose the weight and then lose Andy.

[doreen T]

I'd say the whole thing is contrived .. I notice that most of the site talks about Candy and Andy .. but next to the voting panel, it tells the reader to "leave a note for Dan or Candy in the guestbook". Name changed to protect the insensitive, I guess.

Here's a great comment, from someone around 13 yrs old (mental age, if not actual ..) This guestboook just validates all you overweight web surfers who vote for Fat. Its pathetic, you tell her to stay fat and for Andy to love her. If she puts on any more weight Andy should divorce her fat ass and get himself a skinny chick who looks sexy. All the people who vote for fat are probably fat themselves. You morons need to lose weight yourselves. Poor Andy.
:rolleyes:

Doreen

[kevjol]

Andys a dumda$$
My wife gained 30 lbs since I married her and she was still beautiful and I never hassled her about her weight because I didn't care because she still was beautiful and I didn't marry her for her body. I married her because we go together like peas in a pod. I don't have to pretend to be anyone other than myself and can be completely honest with her about anything anytime. She is a part of me that I would not want to lose under any circumstances. Some people call it love.

To me it is love that comes so easy and because we are both so up front and honest about our opinions and views of things Even if we don't agree she is an extension of me and I know she feels the same way.

She finally did get tired of the extra weight and took it off the old fashioned way of diet and exercise and now is very proud of herself and her looks (as she should be)

Now the flip side
I too gained about 60 lbs and she never had anything to say about it and she did not love me any less. she did have concerns about my health though but never tried to pressure me or ridicule me into getting thinner.

Unfortunately for me it took deteriorating health issues to finally get me to start taking better care of myself and to start getting healthy.
She supports me in this all the way,even starting the low-carb lifestyle herself.

To sum it up I am thankful to God for bring us together Because no one else can fill her shoes.

Andy needs to get a life and reevaluate his relationship because superficial things should not matter.
Its what is inside that counts

[speakerguy]

For a man who at one time weighed in at 325 pounds, and was most decidedly morbidly obese, you display a shocking shallowness, callousness, disrespect, and insensitivity to those who may struggle with weight.

And fatty-coddling is going to make that weight just fly off her. Riiiight.

Now she gained only about 30 pounds... probably with age.

That pretty little band of financial and sexual obligation around her finger had absolutely nothing to do with it either, I'm sure :)

If I was Candy, I would dump that jerk without hesitation.

Considering the studies done on marriage, weight gain, and marital happiness, that's an iffy proposition - for women, there's a huge correlation between weight gain and marital unhappiness (which comes first is a chicken-and-the-egg argument :)). But she's also MUCH less marketable to potential mates as a result of her weight. Lose the weight, then ditch the guy. I thought all ladies knew never to let go of one branch before grabbing hold of another? :)

[Lisa N]

And fatty-coddling is going to make that weight just fly off her. Riiiight.

Hmmm...and fatty bashing/shaming is going to be more effective? Perhaps...if the goal is to get her to dump him. Assuming that this is legitimate and not some sick joke, the issue here seems to be one of control. Since Andy isn't getting what he wants (Candy to lose the weight) by telling her he wants her to, he's "upping the ante" so to speak by trying to shame her into it. Nice tactics for a so-called loving relationship. Manipulation such as this does not indicate a healthy relationship to start with. I'd say that the marriage is already in trouble whether Candy decides to lose the weight or not.


That pretty little band of financial and sexual obligation around her finger had absolutely nothing to do with it either, I'm sure

This cuts both ways and I don't recall anything in my marriage vows promising to always remain at the weight I was at when I got married. As a matter of fact, I weigh less now than I did then. I DO, however, recall something in those vows about "to love, honor and cherish" (again, nothing in there about that only applying as long as wifey stays slim). What Andy is doing fits none of those words.

But she's also MUCH less marketable to potential mates as a result of her weight

Newsflash...there are a lot of men who prefer their women to not be anorexic and actually appreciate a woman with a little more meat on her bones, so to speak. The above only applies to men who have the notion that a woman has to look like a Sports Illustrated swimsuit model to be considered mate material. What's more, most women who look like that probably wouldn't give someone with the above attitude the time of day, much less marry them.

[doreen T]

I wonder if she starved / purged / Slim-Fasted before the wedding in order to be 30 lbs lighter?? She looks kinda emaciated in the before pic ..

What if she decides to trim down by exercising?? She could end up weighing exactly the same or even a bit MORE .. yet be 3 sizes leaner and slimmer. Does that mean she loses the bet because the number on the scale isn't 30 lbs smaller? :rolleyes:


Doreen

[hey_Neener]

Being the first person to post to this thread with a penis, I'd have to say "Go Andy!". If I married a girl and then porked up, I'd expect the same.

What about the number of guys that pork up? IMHO 30 extra pounds on a woman looks so much better than 30 on a man.

[potatofree]

With such attitudes from some men, it's a wonder any of them could GET a wife....

As for "fatty-coddling" et al...

My husband "supported" my weight loss by oinking when I ate something he didn't think I should have...and ridiculing me every chance he got, while telling me he did it because he "cared"....It didn't work. <duh>

[hey_Neener]

Glad Mr Potatohead isn't around if you were getting that kinda crap!

[Lisa N]

What if she decides to trim down by exercising?? She could end up weighing exactly the same or even a bit MORE .. yet be 3 sizes leaner and slimmer.

Not to mention be more physically capable of kicking Andy's sorry butt to the curb. :lol:

[kyrasdad]

And fatty-coddling is going to make that weight just fly off her. Riiiight.

There is a huge chasm between "fatty coddling" and being a decent human being. If someone put a website up about his wife with crap like that on it, he's no kind of man. He can't settle the issue without that? He isn't strong enough to present her his point of view without creating a comedy website?

(I'm pretty sure the entire thing is fake, anyway.)

[Lisa N]

There is a huge chasm between "fatty coddling" and being a decent human being. If someone put a website up about his wife with crap like that on it, he's no kind of man.

I finally realized what about this bothers me so much, so get ready for a rant folks. It's because it promotes the attitude in today's society that being overweight, even by a little, makes it legitimate to subject someone to ridicule, taunting and verbal abuse simply because of a number on a scale or that they don't fit the (IMNSHO, ANOREXIC) model of beauty that the media presents us with).
Does being overweight make us less human? How about lower intelligence? Less capable of doing a good job than the next person? Without feelings? A worse husband/wife than a skinny person? Should we forfeit our right to be treated with dignity and respect soley because of our size? The answer to all of those is NO! Does not fitting the mold of what someone else feels is beauty make us deserving of such treatment? No! When I get to my goal weight, I will still be the same person I was when I weighed 260 pounds. About the only difference I have noticed so far is that I now have the self esteem and confidence to stand up to the morons who think they have a right to comment on my size and call them for the jerks they are.
As an adult, I can stand up for myself, but it's this same attitude even among young children that has made it necessary for me to have to be on guard against a possible eating disorder in my 9 year old daughter! About a year ago, she started getting a little chubby and when the other kids in her class found out what she weighed (much thanks to her gym teacher for that one), they started taunting her. This was in second grade, folks! How did she respond? She quit eating and dropped nearly 20 pounds in 6 months. Great! some folks might say. Not great. At that age, losing that much weight that quickly can cause a child to stop growing and it damages their bodies in other ways. Her pediatrician is having a fit! Not to mention, now we have to battle the mindset of "I'm fat" even when she is NOT fat, nor was she when all this started and she's preoccupied with how much she weighs at 9 years old! She didn't "fit the mold" of how the other kids thought she should be and she wasn't mature enough to stand up for herself and tell them to get a life. That's how much damage words (and the attitude that you have to be skinny to be an acceptable human being) can do and it is NOT acceptable in my opinion.
What I find especially disturbing is that someone who (I presume) has suffered verbal abuse or discrimination due to their size would see this as perfectly acceptable behavior to engage in.

End of rant. :rolleyes:

[speakerguy]

How successfully you women frame the discussion in terms of the chauvinist jerk husband vs. the helplessly overweight wife! Are these the things they taught you when they pulled you aside in gym class? :) Torching your straw men isn't worth the flames that would ensue.

The reality is quite simple: being fat is not acceptable (not even with the 'to have and to hold' poppycock so readily being bandied about as an excuse for fat-assery). When people learn this, perhaps they will de-chunkify and start living happier lives. I know I have :)

[Kristine]

Did you not read Lisa's post, Speakerguy? Why are the overweight (and even the slightly overweight) undeserving of dignity in your world? Being fat is not a crime, and isn't even a moral issue, so why is someone worth less when they gain weight?

I'm pretty sure that site is just a joke, but dude - that woman is experiencing entirely NORMAL "female pattern weight gain." That's the way the female body is designed to work. Sorry. No, I take that back - no woman owes anyone else an apology for that.

"being fat is not acceptable"

According to whom? Who has the right to judge?

[potatofree]

Speakerguy-- may I ask what YOUR wife thinks of your size?

[Lisa N]

The reality is quite simple: being fat is not acceptable

I agree with Kristine. Says who? And why should I conform to what "they" think is beauty? What gives "them" the right to set the standard?
Considering that the current "standard" of what is considered "acceptable" is fostering eating disorders in our young daughters (and sons as well) in order to try and meet it, I'd say that something is seriously wrong with that standard.
I didn't need gym class to teach me that every human being is deserving of being treated with dignity and respect regardless of what size, color or shape they happen to be, but now that you mention it, it wouldn't be a bad idea to start teaching people that lesson in school; it seems that quite a few haven't learned yet that a person's worth isn't determined by what size they wear, nor should happiness be tied to a number on the scale.
I'm afraid that those who think that losing weight will solve all their problems and that they'll find happiness when they reach that magic number on the scale will find themselves sorely disappointed once they reach their goal weight and find that the only thing that has changed about them is their clothing size unless they also deal with the serious self-esteem issues also going on. BTW...self-esteem shouldn't be tied to a number, either, since what size we are or how much we weigh doesn't determine our worth as a human being, either.
As for a heavier girl being less "marketable"....dude, we aren't slabs of meat to be put on the auction block! I found and married a wonderful guy weighing more than I do now and we've been together (happily, I might add) for more than 18 years now. Come to think of it, he's gained 50 pounds in the time we've been married. Should I kick him to the curb because of that? NOT!

Weight issues aside, any man that would turn his wife into an internet sideshow to be mocked and ridiculed is no man in my opinion.

[doreen T]

... Recently a beautiful young woman whom I had helped to become slim and who had stayed that way, told me how she had finally managed to get her husband to reduce. "During our 12 years of married life," she said, "I couldn't get George to take off the fat that was turning a handsome man into an uglier one each year. He kept putting on weight until he scaled over 250 pounds instead of the 175 pounds he was when I married him. I tried to get him to visit you or at least go on your diet, but he refused. He always answered, "I'm a happy fat man."

She shook her head. "I almost gave up. Last summer we rented a house at the beach. Most of the time George wouldn't get into his swim trunks even though he loves to swim. The few times he did go swimming he looked like a tremendous beach ball with legs. No one would ever know that there was a very handsome, tall, thin man hiding inside that ugly mass of flab.

"It didn't help when I told him again and again that I was afraid of his premature death because of his shortness of breath and other evidences of deteriorating health. Finally I said straight out, 'George, I'm ashamed of the way you look. I'm beginning to dislike being with you. Either you start slimming down or I'm afraid that I'll eventually get to the point where I'll have to leave you!"

She beamed. "It worked. He couldn't get very upset about dying before his time. But this blow to his vanity, and even suggesting that his overweight might be repulsive to me, as well as to others, and could break up our marriage - that did the trick. He made a deal with me that he'd go on your Quick Weight Loss Diet for just one short week. If he didn't lose weight - he thought he was one of those people who couldn't - I promised I'd shut up about it from then on.

< snip >

This case fortunately has a happy ending. Too many others I've known about have ended in family tragedy with a woman leaving a grossly overweight husband whom she couldn't stand to look at or live with any more. More often the situation has been that of a man leaving his overweight wife who had lost her figure, her looks, her pride and spirit and finally her husband.
This is a quote from Dr. Stillman's Quick Weight Loss Diet, published in the US in 1967.

What a sad example of manipulation and humiliation. :(


Doreen

[Angeline]

I've always said in the past that I couldn't be attracted to a heavy man. Then I met my current b/f. No one would call him slim. It never occured to me to reject him due to his weight. I like him for who is he, and weight doesn't matter. I find him plenty attractive. It's really just a mindset, it has little to do with looks.

I do encourage him to loose weight, but mostly for health reasons. I want him to be around for a long time !!

[kyrasdad]

How successfully you women frame the discussion in terms of the chauvinist jerk husband vs. the helplessly overweight wife!

I'm a guy. I think that if it was legit (and I doubt that website was), then the husband is no kind of man at all. If he's real, he's a coward who ridicules his wife in public. He's someone who takes someone else's weakness and homes in on it. At the starting weight listed in your profile, you are certainly familiar with that situation, I would guess.

I'm not talking about confronting her about it, or discussing it within your marriage -- that's different. But to nag, ridicule and make fun of your wife publicly? What a soul-less prick.

And you, as someone who's been fat in this world, ought to at least have some empathy.

The reality is quite simple: being fat is not acceptable (not even with the 'to have and to hold' poppycock so readily being bandied about as an excuse for fat-assery). When people learn this, perhaps they will de-chunkify and start living happier lives. I know I have :)

It's good that you're a long way down the road toward losing your weight. Doing that doesn't give you license to join the mindless throng of people who think it's just dandy to ridicule the fat. There is not an excuse for fat, I agree--we're all ultimately responsible for our health. But there is also no excuse for the attitude "Andy" showed with that site, or yours toward people in this forum.

Being an awful husband to your wife isn't acceptable. And you probably aren't familiar enough with marriage or commitment to understand that. "Poppycock" isn't what the commitment is.

I have to say, I would expect someone who has been through the fire of being fat to perhaps have a bit of understanding for that situation in others. It leads me to say that there are worse things--less acceptable things--in this world than fat. Your attitude appears to be one of them, especially in a support forum designed for people to help people. You aren't showing tough love. You're showing that you have a flaw other than fat.

[bigguyjonc]

I think she should lose weight for herself ,her self esteem and health but we all know that ultimatums don't work. she has to lose weight for herself not because some *ss tells her to or else. well that's my 2 cents.

jon

[mudknife]

speakerguy wrote: The reality is quite simple: being fat is not acceptable (not even with the 'to have and to hold' poppycock so readily being bandied about as an excuse for fat-assery). When people learn this, perhaps they will de-chunkify and start living happier lives. I know I have :)
-------------------------------------------
Hi speakerguy, I recognize you and your attitude.

A friend of mine I grew up with has your attitude.
The thing about my friend is he has some good common sense ideas and is a bright guy, but his attitude is a lot like putting perfume on a skunk. It turns people off.

I have known my friend for 30 years and I know him well. I'll tell you what others and I secretly think of him (I would never say it to his face), just as he would never call me fatass to mine. If he did, he would lose one of the last loyal friends he has.

He's a lonely skinny alcoholic with no friends on the verge of losing his house. He is perpetually on unemployment because he cannot get along at work. He had two wives leave him! That's 2 women who got tired of being ridiculed for being fat, which they were not. You have to be a total putz to have a wife leave you, let alone 2!

Simply put, I believe he ridiculed his wives to make himself feel superior.

Of course he blames all of our old friends, his brothers, and his family for not keeping in touch with him, but it's the other way around. He is so abrasive in his attitudes no one will talk to him.

His poor attitude towards fat people spills over to other areas as well, for example people of color and women to name only two.

[sydnarella]

Well, gosh, hmmm.... I think the webpage is joke, not very amusing, but I dont think its a "real" couple. If it was a real couple, the male partner could find a much more compassionate and helpful way to get his point across to his wife. He sounds like a jerk. That said, I don't think its fair to one's spouse to let oneself go, on any level, physical or otherwise. Obviously, a marriage should be for better or for worse, but I do think spouses have an obligation to attempt from thrusting the "worse" part of the equation onto their partner if it can be helped. There are tribulations which neither partner can foresee nor control such as illness, but as shallow as it my seem, I'm not sure I would be physically attracted to a man if HE gained a lot of weight during the marriage. I would expect him to take care of himself and I would understand if he expected the same of me.

[potatofree]

Sydnarella-- what if he lost a limb due to an accident, was scarred in a fire... the unforseen instances of which you speak? If you love someone, does it MATTER what makes their appearance change? What is it about weight gain that makes it so much less acceptable?

[mildwild]

HI ALL!!!!! LOTS OF VERY INTENSE OPINIONS HERE!!!


I'm not sure if any of you have noticed, I've read a lot of post speaking of how he is humiliating his wife, however, this is a couples venture (assuming it's real), it was decided by both him and her to do the poll.

So this leaves only the fact that (if it were true) he is being unkind. However, he has agreed that if people find he is out of line that he would merely renew his wedding vows and be done with it. I think this man is not as lost as many find him to be, otherwise he would not be seeking the opinion of others. He would not need people to back him up. And even if they do, majority rules. He loves her, otherwise they would not have made it through 5 years, but he still has to sleep with her, and he has difficulty doing so while her looks deteriorate, then he has the right to tell her instead of instantly leaving her and leave her wondering why.

I think he's done the right thing with his wife by bringing it up. Communication. Now, imagine that the site is her doing, not his.

-mildwild

[potatofree]

Mildwild-- if he loves her, he wouldn't need the validation of others...

If it were her, I'd be just as disgusted. There's a guy on the Dr Phil weight loss series whose wife is expressing similar opinions of her husband.

[sydnarella]

Well, I'm guessing that if I was married to someone who had an accident, I wouldn't see that as being something he could control. And in that situation, I'm sure that I would just be happy he was alive. I don't think that has anything to do with the fact that I don't think its right not to do what you can to maintain yourself intellectually, spiritually and physically for your spouse. And that would include both parties. To me, its a sign of respect for your spouse and for yourself. And I don't think I would be honest if I said that if I found that my spouse didn't respect himself, and by extension, me, that it might figure into my level of attraction for him. I would not, of course, humiliate him. But it would definitely be something I would tactfully bring up.

[potatofree]

Point taken. So if the weight gain was a side-effect of a medical condition, it's acceptible.. it's purely a respect issue then?

[sydnarella]

That's funny, I think you're right. I think for me it is a respect issue. For men, it may not be the same though - I don't know. Its interesting to think about.

[ItsTheWooo]

How successfully you women frame the discussion in terms of the chauvinist jerk husband vs. the helplessly overweight wife! Are these the things they taught you when they pulled you aside in gym class? :) Torching your straw men isn't worth the flames that would ensue.

The reality is quite simple: being fat is not acceptable (not even with the 'to have and to hold' poppycock so readily being bandied about as an excuse for fat-assery). When people learn this, perhaps they will de-chunkify and start living happier lives. I know I have :)

No amount of verbal abuse will make someone change for the better. People change when they want to, for themselves, end of story.

Hey, I do think "Candy" should lose weight, don't get me wrong, but I do not think she should have some perfect unrealistic ideal in her mind, and I do not think she should change only to appease others.

Remember people the goal at hand is good health, it is not to fit in with lame a** "society", and it is not to please some jerk guy, girl, or anyone else but yourself.

[ItsTheWooo]

Speakerguy-- may I ask what YOUR wife thinks of your size?
I'd be interested in hearing this, too. Speakerman is still a fairly large man, is he comfortable with the fact that many people who are thin believe he is unworthy of equal treatment, respect, and dignity?

[ItsTheWooo]

speakerguy wrote: The reality is quite simple: being fat is not acceptable (not even with the 'to have and to hold' poppycock so readily being bandied about as an excuse for fat-assery). When people learn this, perhaps they will de-chunkify and start living happier lives. I know I have :)
-------------------------------------------
Hi speakerguy, I recognize you and your attitude.

A friend of mine I grew up with has your attitude.
The thing about my friend is he has some good common sense ideas and is a bright guy, but his attitude is a lot like putting perfume on a skunk. It turns people off.

I have known my friend for 30 years and I know him well. I'll tell you what others and I secretly think of him (I would never say it to his face), just as he would never call me fatass to mine. If he did, he would lose one of the last loyal friends he has.

He's a lonely skinny alcoholic with no friends on the verge of losing his house. He is perpetually on unemployment because he cannot get along at work. He had two wives leave him! That's 2 women who got tired of being ridiculed for being fat, which they were not. You have to be a total putz to have a wife leave you, let alone 2!

Simply put, I believe he ridiculed his wives to make himself feel superior.

Of course he blames all of our old friends, his brothers, and his family for not keeping in touch with him, but it's the other way around. He is so abrasive in his attitudes no one will talk to him.

His poor attitude towards fat people spills over to other areas as well, for example people of color and women to name only two.

Typical person suffering from NPD (narcissistic personality disorder).

The narcissist feels himself superior to all, believes he has the right to manipulate and abuse others, in fact breaking down other people is one of his favorite hobbies (as it strokes his ego in contrast). When the narcissists life eventually ends in the toilet, as it always does as people eventually no longer can stand to be around him, rather than realize it is he who caused this to happen, he blames others and the world -- after all, the narcissist is infallable, all misfortunes must be caused by someone else's ineptitude.

Only way to deal with a narcissist is to leave them asap, they are sick and will only break you down. Sounds like this "andy" character and your friend fit the criteria...

[ItsTheWooo]

Well, I'm guessing that if I was married to someone who had an accident, I wouldn't see that as being something he could control. And in that situation, I'm sure that I would just be happy he was alive. I don't think that has anything to do with the fact that I don't think its right not to do what you can to maintain yourself intellectually, spiritually and physically for your spouse. And that would include both parties. To me, its a sign of respect for your spouse and for yourself. And I don't think I would be honest if I said that if I found that my spouse didn't respect himself, and by extension, me, that it might figure into my level of attraction for him. I would not, of course, humiliate him. But it would definitely be something I would tactfully bring up.

I do agree with what you say in part, in a way by letting herself go totally and not even trying she is disrespecting her husband.

However, her husband is also disrespecting her by
a) outright saying her looks are the most important thing in their marriage, so important that he will divorce her if she won't go back to the way she was
b) forcing her to live up to some teenage girl ideal that a mature woman can't realistically or healthfully meet.

Don't get me wrong, I am not one of those people who thinks people should stay fat. I do think candy should lose weight, but she should do it for her, to respect and keep up her own body. The reasons her husband has layed out, and the manner he did it in, is absolutely repulsive to me. What about his behavior? That is at least as big of a disrespect to her, as her letting herself go is to him.

[Dean4Prez]

She should have a "penile implant" site... either he gets a couple of inches put on it, or she'll leave...

It's not like he's asking her to get a boob job here, just get back to what she had (or rather, didn't have) when they got married.

[Dean4Prez]

This is a quote from Dr. Stillman's Quick Weight Loss Diet, published in the US in 1967.

What a sad example of manipulation and humiliation. :(

Doreen

You say that like it's a bad thing.

[Dean4Prez]

What is it about weight gain that makes it so much less acceptable?

The fact that it's under one's control, of course.

[Dean4Prez]

if he loves her, he wouldn't need the validation of others...


What's wrong with needing external validation? I think external validation is like ketosis -- there are situations where it can be a good thing (like keeping one from becoming dangerously overweight), and other situations where it's a pathological condition. Furthermore, I don't think it would necessarily be easier for "Andy" to change this attitude, really change it, than it would be for "Candy" to lose those 30 lbs.

I noticed something while reading through this thread:

potatofree -- starting weight 298, goal 160 = Morbidly obese
Attitude: "if he loves her, he wouldn't need the validation of others..."

ItsTheWooo -- starting weight 280, goal 135 = Morbidly obese
Attitudes: "I think she should lose weight for her, not to impress her husband." and "I do not think she should change only to appease others."

kevjol -- "for me it took deteriorating health issues to finally get me to start taking better care of myself and to start getting healthy" = Morbidly obese
Attitude: "...superficial things should not matter..."

bigguyjonc -- starting weight 354, goal 200 = Morbidly obese
Attitude: "she has to lose weight for herself not because some *ss tells her to or else."

How interesting! It would appear that the people here who believe that the opinions of others shouldn't matter so much tend to have been morbidly obese at one time. Isn't that an amazing coincidence?

Lest you think I'm just poking fun at others here -- just because I don't think there's something necesssarily wrong with needing external validation, doesn't mean that I have a healthy level of this characteristic. Like a lot of nerds, I just don't think about what other people think of how I look. And like you, I was morbidly obese at my peak weight (230). Coincidence? I think not...

[Dean4Prez]

However, her husband is also disrespecting her by
a) outright saying her looks are the most important thing in their marriage, so important that he will divorce her if she won't go back to the way she was


Uh, declining to renew one's marriage vows is not a divorce. Marriages don't automatically expire (or if they do, my "wife" and I have been probably been living in sin for a few years -- why don't people tell me these things?!). Renewing vows, especially after just five years of marriage, is an "extra."

[kyrasdad]

How interesting! It would appear that the people here who believe that the opinions of others shouldn't matter so much tend to have been morbidly obese at one time. Isn't that an amazing coincidence?

Lest you think I'm just poking fun at others here -- just because I don't think there's something necesssarily wrong with needing external validation, doesn't mean that I have a healthy level of this characteristic. Like a lot of nerds, I just don't think about what other people think of how I look. And like you, I was morbidly obese at my peak weight (230). Coincidence? I think not...

The thing you miss is that the opinions of others don't usually motivate people. People who have been fat for a lifetime know it. They don't need to be told so. They (we) understand it intimately, and probably with no small amount of personal, daily horror.

External validation, motivation -- whatever you'd like to call it -- isn't usually very useful to an obese person. He has the facts. He understands the stakes. So yeah, the opinions of others shouldn't matter. They aren't really all that relevant. I don't know of anyone who has been motivated to lose or to make other decisions about self destructive behavior that way. I've got a recovering alcoholic brother. He went to jail. He lost his driver's license. He hit pretty much rock bottom. I seriously doubt ridicule would have motivated him.

It seems that "motivation" and ridicule have gotten mixed up here somehow. Comments like "fat-assery" aren't going to motivate anyone to do anything.

[Lisa N]

While the issue of Andy and Candy sparked this whole thread, I think there's a larger issue underlying the whole thing and there are a few things that bear discussing.

First: how much extra fat can you have on your body before someone can say that you are no longer acceptable or that you have "let yourself go"? It seeems to me that would be a very subjective thing since some people carry extra weight better than others and what one person considers "beautiful" and "sexy" another person may not. Who sets the standard for what is considered an acceptable body shape/body fat percentage/weight and why should we accept it as valid (health concerns aside here)? In our current society, the thin and beautiful receive validation while the overweight or average looking person does not; the booming plastic surgery business is testament to that, but does this mean we should all fall in with the majority and buy into this idea as valid? The underlying philosophy with that is only the thin and beautiful are worthy of validation/promotion/attention or even being hired as an employee and that a person's worth is determined solely by their apperance.

Second: The prevailing notion that carrying what someone else considers an unacceptable amount of extra pounds suddenly makes you a valid target for verbal abuse, mental abuse, discrimination and deserving of having the support of your spouse or SO withdrawn until you conform to their standards which are often based on unrealistic images of what beauty is. Read some of the comments left for Candy on that website. If those don't qualify as abuse, I don't know what does, and Andy (and to a certain extent, Candy) is willing to subject his wife to this? How would you all feel if Andy stood his wife up on a stage at the local mall and invited these same comments, even if Candy was willing to subject herself to such treatment? I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd be thinking that Andy was the biggest jerk alive and that Candy had no self-respect. How is doing it on the internet any different? Are shaming/badgering/manipulating/threatening valid methods to get someone else to conform to your standards? Are they effective and do the means justify the end? IMO, only the vain or the insecure are motivated by such methods. Ultimately, all of those methods are about one person controlling another and that is not what a healthy relationship should be based on. Should the love between a husband and wife be conditional or unconditional?

Third: The idea that those who are overweight suffer from some sort of moral deficiency or are just plain gluttons. If it was a simple case of eat less/exercise more many of us wouldn't be here because we'd all be at our goal weights and enjoying the "validation" of society. I can't tell you the number of posts I've read from people who have tried that route only to fail miserably or who have "dieted" themselves to their current weight as well as the number of posts from people saying, "I never understood what was making me fat until I understood what carbs and sugars were doing to my body." Yes, there are a certain number of people who can simply eat less and exercise more and lose the weight, but there is (I believe) a much larger portion of the popluation who have metabolic issues with the traditionally recommended weight loss methods of more carbs/less fat/exercise more and are completely unaware of them. They only know that they're doing everything they've been told to do and continue to gain weight. Are these people deserving of our scorn and ridicule? How about those that have medical conditions such as PCOS or hypothyroid which predispose them to weight gain despite their best efforts? Shame them for their condition? Same thing for those that need to take medications that cause weight gain? None of those are things you can see by looking at a fat person and yet we are all willing to judge without hesitation based on the appearance only.

Fourth: If gaining weight and "letting yourself go" are disrespectful to your mate or SO and justify their withdrawing their love and support or outright verbal and mental abuse, would not eating right, not excercising enough, drinking a bit too much, smoking, etc...also be considered the same and justification for the same? There are a lot of unhealthy thin people in our society as well. Would it be ridiculous for a spouse to say, "Whoa, babe...you've got high blood pressure from all those salty foods you've been eating...you're dissin' me!" or "I'd better see you spending more time at the gym or it's over for us, dude."? Granted, Andy's comment about renewing his marriage vows if the votes for Candy to stay as she is win out or she has 2 years to lose the 30 pounds isn't threatening divorce, it's a step in that direction because the underlying thought there is "if everyone thinks you need to drop the weight, babe, and you don't then I'm withdrawing my commitment to you unless or until you comply."

Ultimately, it's not so much an issue of whether or not Candy should drop the weight, it's really an issue about what determines a person's worth and makes them deserving of "validation" (whatever that may be), the love and support of their spouse or SO and the attitude that only thin and beautiful are deserving of such things.

[kyrasdad]

The fact that it's under one's control, of course.

Let's examine that. I'm in agreement that fat is under the control of the fat person, of course. We are all responsible for our condition, whatever that is. However, the degree to which fat people are "held responsible" when compared to other self destructive behaviors is extreme.

After all, smoking costs everyone monetarily in terms of insurance premiums, taxes, healthcare costs, and misery at least as much as fat does. But smokers aren't ridiculed in most every public forum. The same comparison could be made for alcoholics or drug users. Robert Downey Junior probably advanced his career with his addictions (he certainly didn't slow it down). If he'd done something similarly self destructive -- say, gain 100 pounds of fat -- would that have been the case?

Another self inflicted flaw might be someone who routinely drives carelessly and causes his face to be hideously burned in a crash, or puts himself into a wheelchair. Is it all right to ridicule that person because "he did it to himself?" it was under his control, too.

I'm not saying the fat aren't responsible for what they (we) have done to ourselves. I loathe the fat acceptance movement because it's predicated on a Big Lie. And I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for airlines to charge a person who takes up two seats for the privilege.

But I am saying that in significant ways, the fat tend to be held responsible, to pay the social price for that flaw than other self destructive behaviors.

[potatofree]

potatofree -- starting weight 298, goal 160 = Morbidly obese
Attitude: "if he loves her, he wouldn't need the validation of others..."

True love and respect would involve a heartfelt discussion of the issue.. not public humiliation. Personally, if this site IS for real, I think they're both more interested in being a martyr than working on the REAL issues in their marriage.

MY weight and the weight of others has some bearing on our perception. Having "been there" and felt the humiliation first-hand gives you a bit more sensitivity. My father died from complications of "stomach stapling" surgery, and as a teenager, I remember being taunted about HIS weight, and remember how he hid from the world out of shame. Honestly, at the point of the surgery, his weight was no longer under his control. He even tried the liquid diets, and managed to gain on 800 calories a day! (And I do know he didn't cheat, since it was administered in a hospital.) He would rather take the chance that the surgery would kill him than face the pain and humiliation any longer.

Fast forward a decade to when MY weight started to soar... feeling the humiliation he died to avoid left a mark!

[Dean4Prez]

The thing you miss is that the opinions of others don't usually motivate people.
Really? Ask any successful plastic surgeon or salesperson of luxury goods. I'll bet he/she would disagree.

People who have been fat for a lifetime know it. They don't need to be told so. They (we) understand it intimately, and probably with no small amount of personal, daily horror.
External validation, motivation -- whatever you'd like to call it -- isn't usually very useful to an obese person.
No kidding! That's one reason (among others) that obese people get that way.

He has the facts. He understands the stakes. So yeah, the opinions of others shouldn't matter. They aren't really all that relevant.
To paraphrase G. B. Shaw, the ways of our tribe (overweight/obese people) are NOT the laws of psychology. Just because you or I are not motivated by the opinions of others to lose weight, or not gain it in the first place, does not mean that other people are not.

I don't know of anyone who has been motivated to lose or to make other decisions about self destructive behavior that way.
Imagine yourself in a nice restaurant, filled with fashionably slim people wearing expensive clothes. If the waiter asks a customer if she'd like to order dessert, she's probably not going to say "I really want that Death By Chocolate, but I worry about the opinions of others," in a loud, clear voice. No, she's probably just going to say, "No, thank you." How would you know what her motivations were in that case?

I've got a recovering alcoholic brother. He went to jail. He lost his driver's license. He hit pretty much rock bottom. I seriously doubt ridicule would have motivated him.
I agree. And I'm not going to say that any alcoholic would be all right if he/she were motivated by the opinions of others. Alcoholics have many things going on.

It seems that "motivation" and ridicule have gotten mixed up here somehow. Comments like "fat-assery" aren't going to motivate anyone to do anything.
Don't look at me, take that up with speakerguy. I know what I mean by motivation, and it usually doesn't have anything to do with comments like "fat-assery".

[mildwild]

I feel like I should have put an end date on this thread...I hope people are getting a lot off their chests.

-mildwild

[Dean4Prez]

I feel like I should have put an end date on this thread...I hope people are getting a lot off their chests.

-mildwild
Hey, you started it!

Which reminds me of this:
Basil Fawlty: Is something wrong?
4th German: Will you please stop talking about the war?
Basil Fawlty: Me? You started it!
4th German: We did not!
Basil Fawlty: Yes you did, you invaded Poland!

[potatofree]

<giggle> And I actually USED the term "fat-assery" today.... if it's not a real word, it should be!

See also:
half-assery
jack-assery
kick-assery
dumb-assery

[Dean4Prez]

I feel like I should have put an end date on this thread...I hope people are getting a lot off their chests.

-mildwild

I for one am grateful to you for starting this interesting thread. When I first joined lowcarber.org, I enjoyed reading the threads in the War Zone, but after a while they all seemed to have degenerated into "Did too!" "Did not!" and "You're a moron!" "I know you are, but what am I?!" A new topic is appreciated.

[Dean4Prez]

While the issue of Andy and Candy sparked this whole thread, I think there's a larger issue underlying the whole thing and there are a few things that bear discussing.
First: how much extra fat can you have on your body before someone can say that you are no longer acceptable or that you have "let yourself go"?
Acceptable to whom, and for what? If "Candy" packs on another 50 or so pounds, do you think that "Andy" should be expected to respond sexually to "Candy" as eagerly as he did when they were first married? If not, then isn't letting her know this when she's "only" 50 or so pounds overweight a better idea than waiting until she's completely unattractive (in his eyes)?

It seems to me that would be a very subjective thing
Yes, it is. What about it? In human relationships, "subjective" does not equal "invalid" (unless you're an Objectivist, in which case I think you've got bigger problems than being a few pounds overweight :) (kidding))

In our current society, the thin and beautiful receive validation while the overweight or average looking person does not; the booming plastic surgery business is testament to that, but does this mean we should all fall in with the majority and buy into this idea as valid?...The prevailing notion that carrying what someone else considers an unacceptable amount of extra pounds suddenly makes you a valid target for verbal abuse...
If you don't think the majority's view is valid, what do you care for their opinions at all, at all?

The underlying philosophy with that is only the thin and beautiful are worthy of validation/promotion/attention or even being hired as an employee and that a person's worth is determined solely by their appearance.
Not to belabor the obvious, but the relationship between husband and wife ("Andy" and "Candy" in this case) is different from the relationship between employer and employee. For example, if my boss said, "We're not going to promote you to an outside sales position until you lose 50 pounds, because we think our customers don't want to deal with a fat guy," I would think he was WAY out of line. OTOH, if my wife said, "I'm afraid that if you gain much more weight, I won't want to have sex with you anymore," I would take that to heart. Different relationships, different rules.

How would you all feel if Andy stood his wife up on a stage at the local mall and invited these same comments, even if Candy was willing to subject herself to such treatment?
I'll agree that if that Web site was a sincere attempt at an "intervention" (and not a joke), it was a remarkably clumsy one -- perhaps the stupidest thing I've ever seen a well-meaning husband do.
Are shaming/badgering/manipulating/threatening valid methods to get someone else to conform to your standards?
Yes, if they work :devil:

Are they effective and do the means justify the end? IMO, only the vain or the insecure are motivated by such methods. Ultimately, all of those methods are about one person controlling another and that is not what a healthy relationship should be based on. Should the love between a husband and wife be conditional or unconditional?
"Should" has to be one of the most useless words in the English language. Relationships are what they are. Whether "Andy" "should" feel just the same about his wife at 30 or 50 or 100 pounds over her wedding weight is irrelevant -- the fact is, he does feel differently about her. Do you think he should just pretend he doesn't care that she's slowly becoming less attractive to him, or is it better to bring it out in the open now? (leaving aside the question of whether that Web site was a good way to address the situation, because it wasn't, IMO).

Some people feel that homosexuals "should" not feel attraction to members of their own sex, but "should" rather be attracted to the opposite sex -- or at least pretend they're attracted to the opposite sex. Do you agree? Or do you think homosexuals ought to be able to be attracted to whatever they're attracted to? If the latter, why shouldn't "Andy" get the same consideration as a homosexual?

Ultimately, it's not so much an issue of whether or not Candy should drop the weight, it's really an issue about what determines a person's worth and makes them deserving of "validation" (whatever that may be), the love and support of their spouse or SO and the attitude that only thin and beautiful are deserving of such things.
"Deserving" -- that's right up there with "should" when it comes to utility, as Gandalf might have said to Frodo. Does "Candy" "deserve" to have "Andy" desire her if she's 100 pounds overweight? It's irrelevant -- the fact is, he probably won't.

[Dean4Prez]

Let's examine that. I'm in agreement that fat is under the control of the fat person, of course. We are all responsible for our condition, whatever that is. However, the degree to which fat people are "held responsible" when compared to other self destructive behaviors is extreme.
Debatable.

After all, smoking costs everyone monetarily in terms of insurance premiums, taxes, healthcare costs, and misery at least as much as fat does. But smokers aren't ridiculed in most every public forum.
And most restaurants aren't requiring overweight people to sit in a special "Fatties Section" where other patrons won't be put off their food by looking at us adding to our adipose. Nor is our "addiction" taxed for our sins the way tobacco is -- and a damn good thing for us low-carbers, too, as the nutritional establishment would probably want to give "healthful" low-fat products a big tax break and make us pay big time for our steaks and cream.
The same comparison could be made for alcoholics or drug users. Robert Downey Junior probably advanced his career with his addictions (he certainly didn't slow it down). If he'd done something similarly self destructive -- say, gain 100 pounds of fat -- would that have been the case?
Have you ever seen Nick Nolte mentioned in Jay Leno's monologue since his (Nolte's) drunk driving arrest last year? Leno has milked Nolte's mug shot at least as much as he's mentioned Monica Lewinsky.

I think if there's an organizing principle, it's that if one's self-destructive behavior makes one less attractive, the "comedians" come out of their kennels. Robert Downey Jr. might have drug problems, but he still looks pretty good -- Nick Nolte looked like crap. Result: Downey gets a pass, Nolte gets ridiculed. Smokers look pretty good (until they start coughing up chunks of lung in a hospital), but overweight people look less attractive. Result: "Yo' mama is so fat, when she sits around the house -- she sits AROUND THE HOUSE!"

Another self inflicted flaw might be someone who routinely drives carelessly and causes his face to be hideously burned in a crash, or puts himself into a wheelchair. Is it all right to ridicule that person because "he did it to himself?" it was under his control, too.
Whether it's "all right" or not, people who injure themselves in stupid ways get ridiculed too. See http://www.darwinawards.com or maybe http://www.fark.com (just for starters). The Germans even have a name for it: schadenfreude -- "Would that English were so honest!"

I'm not saying the fat aren't responsible for what they (we) have done to ourselves. I loathe the fat acceptance movement because it's predicated on a Big Lie. And I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for airlines to charge a person who takes up two seats for the privilege.
But I am saying that in significant ways, the fat tend to be held responsible, to pay the social price for that flaw than other self destructive behaviors.
Even if we are held responsible out of proportion to the harm we do, so what? Would it really make it easier for us to lose weight if comedians stopped making fun of us?

[Dean4Prez]

Just to add a bit of fuel to the fire here --
Take a look at the first letter in Dan Savage's column from June 18-24 2003
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0325/savage.php
(site may not be suitable for work)

Myself, I agree with Dan.

[Scarlet]

This whole thing is just so horrible to watch. To have all this displayed on a website is so hurtful and tasteless.

I feel sorry for Andy, he's obvuiously married to the wrong woman if the only thing that turns him on is her body. Does he not find her face, her movements, her energy etc. sexy? Chemistry is not reliant on body size, it's either there or it's not. 30lbs shouldn't effect chemistry that much, not like she's gained 100lbs!!!!!!!!

Sounds to me theres a lot more problems with this marriage than poor "Candy's" weight issues.

D'know if this is even real though, I mean who's called Candy and Andy?

[adkpam]

Whether he is concerned for her health or not, he doesn't SAY so. He is acting like a jerk, and it's jerky to open up this kind of discussion online.
What if he was losing his hair? Would it be a "get a toupee or I'm divorcing you" thing?
Perhaps they deserve each other.

[komireds]

The same comparison could be made for alcoholics or drug users. Robert Downey Junior probably advanced his career with his addictions (he certainly didn't slow it down). If he'd done something similarly self destructive -- say, gain 100 pounds of fat -- would that have been the case?

.


wow! Now, aint this the truth? I had a drinking/drug problem for years, but very few people saw the need call me on it. I have also struggled with my weight since I was about 9 years old and I could fill a book with all the things that people (friends, relatives, STRANGERS) have said--ridiculing, shaming and blaming me for my condition.

I have ceased the drinking/drugging--no one seems to notice much or care (which is fine with me), but I've also lost about 20 pounds and the amount of praise that I have recieved is staggering!

What is wrong with this picture? In my mind, my drinking/drugging had much more serious ramifications to my health than 40 extra pounds (not that that is healthy either) and yet the substance abuse is not seen as cause for ridicule. But just try being 40 pounds overweight and everyone and thier brother takes the opportunity to cut you down and tell you how to live! Including people who are heavy themselves. It's amazing!

[komireds]

I agree. And I'm not going to say that any alcoholic would be all right if he/she were motivated by the opinions of others. Alcoholics have many things going on.

.


wait a second.....so alcoholics (people who are drinking themselves to death) have more "going on" than severly obese folks (people who are eating themselves to death)?

They are two different means to a very destructive end. Why does one group deserve special treatment and more respect than the other?

[adkpam]

Why does one group deserve special treatment and more respect than the other?

I don't think eating too much is that different from drinking too much, gambling too much, even drugging too much. (Who has had a tooth out, bone surgery, or similar need for drugs? They aren't bad, they can just be used for bad purposes.)

I know I always blamed myself for my weight problems. Part of it was my fault, since I had a problem with emotional eating. But part of it was also the carb cycle, making me always hungry.

Any addiction has two components like this: the emotional side and the physical side. Gamblers can get hooked on the adrenalin rush of their large bets. Because we have emotional and physical sides which interact, all addictions have these two sides.

The way society regards various addictions is always subject to change. Right now, with the physical problems with carbs not recognized, overweight is seen as something entirely within someone's control, while drinking is seen as something totally out of someone's control. The truth for both is somewhere in between.

Society thinks it's entirely okay to have an intervention with a drug addict, "You must get help!" Etc. Does anyone do that for someone with a weight problem? It's interesting.

[potatofree]

Given the number of people who pointed out my weight to me, compared to the scant few who acknowledged my ex's alcoholism you'd almost swear they don't think you KNOW you're fat!

"Man, you've really put on the weight.."

Me: "OMIGOD! Thank you SO much for pointing that out to me! I never would have REALIZED that without you telling me... To think, the tighter, plus-sized clothes, breathing heavy after exertion of any kind, my doctor telling me my health is at risk..not being able to fit in the chair with ARMS in his waiting room...the Slim-Fast, the Weight Watchers...crying myself to sleep....none of that was a clue until YOU called me fat and snapped me to my senses! Thank you SO much!"

<ahem>

[Lisa N]

And most restaurants aren't requiring overweight people to sit in a special "Fatties Section"

Nope. We get to sit with everyone else and have total strangers feel free to comment on what we order and how much of it (loud enough for us to hear, of course) and our friends/family get to share in the embarassment with us.

I think if there's an organizing principle, it's that if one's self-destructive behavior makes one less attractive, the "comedians" come out of their kennels.

Which validates my earlier point that only the thin and beautiful are "worthy" of validation in our society no matter how destructive their behavior is.

Whether it's "all right" or not, people who injure themselves in stupid ways get ridiculed too.

There's a big difference between laughing at someone who is stupid enough to put a cup of hot coffee between her legs, get burned and then bring a lawsuit against the restaurant who sold her the coffee for not warning her (in writing, no less), that the coffee was served hot. I doubt too many people would find it acceptable behavior to go down to the local closed head injury or spinal cord injury clinic and mock the patients because they got they way due to their own carelessness (careless/impaired driving, extreme sports, etc...) and yet it's perfectly acceptable to mock someone who is overweight "because we did it to ourselves"? Besides...those with disabilities (self-inflicted or otherwise) are protected from discrimination by the Americans With Disabilities act...those that are overweight are not.

Would it really make it easier for us to lose weight if comedians stopped making fun of us?

The question isn't whether or not it would make it easier to lose weight if people stopped mocking us, although obviously it doesn't do much good or there would be a lot less fat people walking around and for those that have an emotional component to their overeating, it only contributes to the problem. The question is why should we have to wait until we get thin or BE thin to be treated with dignity and respect.

If you don't think the majority's view is valid, what do you care for their opinions at all, at all?

I don't care what their opinion is as long as they keep it to themselves. I do care when that opinion becomes action in the form of verbal abuse or discrimination.

For example, if my boss said, "We're not going to promote you to an outside sales position until you lose 50 pounds, because we think our customers don't want to deal with a fat guy," I would think he was WAY out of line.

Nope. They wouldn't likely say it to your face. Just behind your back while they're hiring someone else who is thinner and better looking for the position saying something like, "Well...we had a candidate who was more qualified, but he doesn't project the type of image we'd like to represent our company..."

[potatofree]

While all these posts are really interesting conversation, I guess, to go back on subject...

It doesn't make you a bad person to admit that your spouse's weight gain makes them less sexually attractive to you. That being said, a marriage shouldn't be contingent on your partner's size, since, presumably, you married for deeper reasons than physical appearance. Trying to bully or humiliate your spouse into changing is poor form, to say the least!

Should we lose weight to please our spouse? My knee-jerk reaction would be "NO"... only to make ourselves healthy and happy. Go a little deeper, though, and in the context of a loving relationship, I'd have to say "it depends"...

That may seem like a wishy-washy answer, but I quit smoking more out of love for my children than my own reasons. I love them enough to want to spare them the pain of losing another parent when I could do something to prevent it. In a way, I'm losing weight and gaining health more for them than myself... although it didn't happen until I was ready... no amount of ridicule would have made it happen any faster.

What it all boils down to for me is the spirit of the whole thing. He comes off as a shallow jerk.

[Dean4Prez]

While all these posts are really interesting conversation, I guess, to go back on subject...

It doesn't make you a bad person to admit that your spouse's weight gain makes them less sexually attractive to you. That being said, a marriage shouldn't be contingent on your partner's size, since, presumably, you married for deeper reasons than physical appearance.
When you were at or near your maximum weight, would you have been willing to allow your husband to have sex with someone in shape, as long as he promised to not fall in love with her, but only be attracted to her on the physical level? After all, marriage is about more important things than shallow, superficial physical attraction, right? :devil:

Trying to bully or humiliate your spouse into changing is poor form, to say the least!
I agree. Unless nothing else works, that is -- then bring on the bullying or humiliation. Or bail, and find someone who will take care of him/herself, someone more to your liking, and let the ex look for someone who doesn't care what her/his spouse looks like. But I think if you care enough about someone to marry them in the first place, you ought to care enough to bully or humiliate -- if that's what it takes to get them to make a change that's pleasing to you and beneficial to his/her health.

Should we lose weight to please our spouse? My knee-jerk reaction would be "NO"... only to make ourselves healthy and happy. Go a little deeper, though, and in the context of a loving relationship, I'd have to say "it depends"...
That may seem like a wishy-washy answer, but I quit smoking more out of love for my children than my own reasons. I love them enough to want to spare them the pain of losing another parent when I could do something to prevent it. In a way, I'm losing weight and gaining health more for them than myself...
Sometimes, that's what the spouse or kids are for -- to get you to do something good that you wouldn't do for yourself.

[Dean4Prez]

Well, I'm guessing that if I was married to someone who had an accident, I wouldn't see that as being something he could control. And in that situation, I'm sure that I would just be happy he was alive. I don't think that has anything to do with the fact that I don't think its right not to do what you can to maintain yourself intellectually, spiritually and physically for your spouse. And that would include both parties. To me, its a sign of respect for your spouse and for yourself. And I don't think I would be honest if I said that if I found that my spouse didn't respect himself, and by extension, me, that it might figure into my level of attraction for him. I would not, of course, humiliate him. But it would definitely be something I would tactfully bring up.

Amen, sister! :agree: In my opinion, marriage should be about bringing out the best you have to offer. Spending hours a week sitting on the couch watching football or soap operas when you might be improving your mind does not count as bringing out your best. Neither does letting yourself go physically, gaining weight year by year, until you get to the point where stomach stapling starts to look like a good idea. Marriage should be about two* people becoming more than either could be alone -- not a long, slow roll downhill from one's physical and mental peak.

*Or more if you can manage it -- I'm not prejudiced. But making it happen with just two is hard enough for most of us.

[chargeit]

My husband did and still does say to me " it doesn't matter how you look I still love you " But for me I want to lose the weight I'm tired of huffing and puffing as I walk up the steps or down the street. Then there are times (not often) I think he does mention my weight because he thinks that will get me motivated again.
(:exclm:wrong ! just makes me feel worse and I pig out. ) As long as he is supportive I'm happy. We will be celebrating our 32nd wedding anniversary on Thursday and I have had more gain than loss. :Party:

Then I think about my sister who is married to an A--! I have heard that he has told her if she gains weight he will leave her . He has also told her if she ever cuts her hair he would also leave. From what I understand she had her hair trimmed and he wouldn't talk to her for 3 weeks. To me that is a Major. A-- :bash:

[Scarlet]

[QUOTE=Dean4PrezUnless nothing else works, that is -- then bring on the bullying or humiliation. Or bail, and find someone who will take care of him/herself, someone more to your liking, and let the ex look for someone who doesn't care what her/his spouse looks like. But I think if you care enough about someone to marry them in the first place, you ought to care enough to bully or humiliate -- if that's what it takes to get them to make a change that's pleasing to you and beneficial to his/her health.QUOTE]

I hope for her sake that your gf never gains weight or does something that's not exactly to your liking if bullying and humiliation are what you deem acceptable treatment of someone you're suppossed to love!! You're obviously not familiar with the concept of unconditional love!!

I mean c'mon "If you care enough about someone to marry them in the first place, you ought to care enough to bully or humiliate". What a lovely view of relationships you have!!!!

[adkpam]

you ought to care enough to bully or humiliate.

No, I disagree strongly. There's NEVER a good reason to bully or humiliate anyone.

After all, if it worked, none of us with unsupportive families would still have this problem, right?

[scorpio381]

Marriage should be about two* people becoming more than either could be alone -- not a long, slow roll downhill from one's physical and mental peak.

*Or more if you can manage it -- I'm not prejudiced. But making it happen with just two is hard enough for most of us.

Am I understanding your comment correctly? Do you advocate having more than one partner in marriage?

[kyrasdad]

No, I disagree strongly. There's NEVER a good reason to bully or humiliate anyone. After all, if it worked, none of us with unsupportive families would still have this problem, right?

Not to mention that it is usually ineffective to bully someone. I doubt that the person who wrote that has ever had any success changing anyone's behavior through humiliation & bullying. (Dean4Prez can correct me if he has; I don't expect to see a correction).

Saying that you can alter a fat person's behavior by humiliating them is rather absurd: fat people live their entire lives with built-in humiliation and ridicule. Adding more ain't going to influence them. It never did me, it just made me hate those who did it. Nothing ever really works until someone makes the decision on his own, anyway. You really cannot change people.

I cannot imagine a situation where humiliation would work on my wife, even if I had the heart to employ it. It isn't conceivable to me that I'd ever do it, that I could be that cruel, even to a noble end.

[gotbeer]

Could be just a glitch, but yahoo is now reporting that the site http://geocities.com/thin_or_fat cannot be found.

[doreen T]

Could be just a glitch, but yahoo is now reporting that the site http://geocities.com/thin_or_fat cannot be found.
I Googled the geocities thin_or_fat site, and came to THIS site .. www.geocities.com/miatauniverse/ .. which has this statement on its home page Please pardon changes being made after this page was damaged by hackers.
I then Googled andyandcandy (the username for the person who posted the message asking people to go to their geocities site to cast a vote) ... came up with quite a few results for the post, which was cut & pasted to a number of pub.ezboards .. including a porn site. http://www.google.ca/search?q=andyandcandy&btnG=Google+Search&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8




Doreen

[Lisa N]

I cannot imagine a situation where humiliation would work on my wife, even if I had the heart to employ it. It isn't conceivable to me that I'd ever do it, that I could be that cruel, even to a noble end.

There is a term for bullying, threatening and/or humiliating another person that you are involved in a relationship with. It's called abuse and while I know that my DH would never do this to me, I can guarantee you that the relationship would not last long if he did. I have more self-respect than to allow another person who is supposed to love me unconditionally (that is, in effect, what you are promising with those marriage vows you take) abuse me or allow my daughters to witness me allowing myself to be treated with anything less than respect.

[potatofree]

When you were at or near your maximum weight, would you have been willing to allow your husband to have sex with someone in shape, as long as he promised to not fall in love with her, but only be attracted to her on the physical level? After all, marriage is about more important things than shallow, superficial physical attraction, right? :devil:

All I said was it was not a charcter flaw to ADMIT diminishing attraction..not ACTING on it. The vows say "keep the only unto him/her"...

I agree. Unless nothing else works, that is -- then bring on the bullying or humiliation. Or bail, and find someone who will take care of him/herself, someone more to your liking, and let the ex look for someone who doesn't care what her/his spouse looks like. But I think if you care enough about someone to marry them in the first place, you ought to care enough to bully or humiliate -- if that's what it takes to get them to make a change that's pleasing to you and beneficial to his/her health.
Sometimes, that's what the spouse or kids are for -- to get you to do something good that you wouldn't do for yourself.

There's a big diference, IMO, between an ultimatum (when all discussion fails) and humiliation and bullying. An ultimatum is stating clearly what you can and can not live with, not a personal attack. In the case of my ex's drinking and cheating, it got to the point of "I can't continue to watch you destroy yourself and have you abuse me and the children. I need you to make a choice. Rehab or divorce." He chose divorce. His drinking killed him.

Do you really think calling him names and trying to embarass him publicly would have helped when he didn't care about his own children any more?

I loved him enough to marry him. I loved my kids and myself enough to "bail".


If he made the case that either I lose weight, or he'd leave me, I honestly don't know what I'd do. I'd have been insulted, and if I wasn't at the point of being able to see the need for change, I'd likely have reacted the same way he did to my ultimatum about his drinking... and I DO know that humiliation and bullying didn't help. He tried it.

[gotbeer]

Is every request for a change a humiliation?

I've known hypersensitive and hateful women who insulted me repeatedly, and yet crumbled into tears and rage at even my gentlest constructive request for them to modify something. (I never did ask for her to lose the 100 lbs she gained in the 3 years we were together because there is no way I know of to "communicate" that without causing an explosion. After our sex life died, and our friendship died, we broke up instead.)

Just about every guy ought to know that the query "does this make me look fat?" is a loaded question, fraught with danger, by someone who is out to pick a fight.

I think "unconditional love" ought to work BOTH ways. If I ask a lover for something, and she unconditionally loves me, she ought to fall all over herself getting it accomplished - just as the reverse ought to be true as well. "Unconditional love" is not a lazy excuse to avoid some difficult but doable goal. Using it as such an excuse cheapens it into insignificance.

[Lisa N]

Is every request for a change a humiliation?

No, it isn't. Oinking at someone every time they eat and calling them a fat slob/pig/disgusting at every opportunity is. Commenting on how fat and disgusting they've gotten in the presence of friends and family (or total strangers for that matter) is.


I think "unconditional love" ought to work BOTH ways. If I ask a lover for something, and she unconditionally loves me, she ought to fall all over herself getting it accomplished - just as the reverse ought to be true as well.

I think you may have a different understanding of unconditional love than I do. Unconditional love means that you love someone no matter what. It's given willingly and freely with no strings attached, no having to meet your demands/requests, to receive that love.

Now, out of consideration and respect, I don't have a problem with my DH making a reasonable request of me for change (note...a request, not a demand with an ultimatum following). But as far as being willing to move heaven an earth to meet that request, ask yourself if you would be willing to do that if you felt that a) the request was unreasonable or b) you were being asked to give something up that you really loved like going out with a particular buddy because your SO doesn't like them or having a couple of beers every night because your SO is against drinking alcohol.
Another example...let's say that my DH feels that my doing low carb is unhealthy (he doesn't) and asks me to go back to the ADA diet that I was following before. Should I be willing to fall all over myself to comply?

[mildwild]

Hey all, so....

As far as every request for a change being humiliating I would have to say it all depends on how much self confidence you have. Someone with only a little self-esteem can be brought down mighty quickly with a few little words (I would know).

As for my SO making a reasonable request of me and would I follow through, well, it's circumstances that makes any request reasonable or not. As for doing it, if it's reasonable, I would in a heart beat and not expect anything in return, to me that is unconditional love and a healthy relationship (well, along with trust and loyalty...)

If I were to perform all his requests, reasonable or not, this would mean some lack in my own character, and how can I love him unconditionally when I cannot love myself that way first?

In my opinion; I voted for thin. I would lose the weight.

The (reasonable in my opinion) request did not harm anyone. If I were to say no and he were to leave, it wasn't meant to be. If I say yes and he stays, he accepts me for who I am, and the fact that I know he would like me to lose weight may cause me to act on that issue in the future, without pressure.

It's a healthy choice to be thin, losing weight brings not only beauty (we all know this). I'm sure if losing weight were as simple as getting changed, then asking his wife to lose weight could be the same as asking her to dress more appropriately for his work's barbeque. Some people take offence (you see them on Jerry Springer) and others take advice or, in this case, "requests."

It's all about give an take anyway. Reach a compromise, that's healthy, and fair.

As for the whole site being a hoax...most likely was, but that doesn't really matter...it ain't something ta get all hung up over.

I wish you all the best with your attempts at better health. If atkins brought only better health and no weight loss, do you think this many people would be doing it?

-mildwild

THIS IS ALL IMHO... :)

[Dean4Prez]

wait a second.....so alcoholics (people who are drinking themselves to death) have more "going on" than severly obese folks (people who are eating themselves to death)?

They are two different means to a very destructive end. Why does one group deserve special treatment and more respect than the other?

Were you on the "Twinkie Defense" jury? Simple carbohydrates may be addictive, but they don't affect one's judgement the way alcohol and some drugs do. Have you ever heard of a young woman having sex with someone she wouldn't have otherwise after having a second piece of pie? (If you have and if she's cute, let me know -- I want to buy her some Sara Lee :) ) Are there any groups of alcoholics anywhere who have "planned binges" the way some of us have "planned cheats" (e.g. for Thanksgiving)? Until the police start doing roadside Dextrostix tests and taking people to jail for having an open container of Ding-Dongs on the front seat, I think alcoholism should definitely be treated differently ("special treatment" if you like) from "carb addiction."

As for "more respect," I just don't feel I have enough experience with alcoholism to draw any conclusions about it.

[potatofree]

Are there groups of alcoholics that have planned binges? You bet there are! After not only dealing with a few alcoholics in my family, I've worked in two different bars... One guy has a really big bender with the reasoning that his kids are about to "throw him in the tank" again..better have fun NOW.

There's another old man who saves it up all week, and Friday night is his "night off". He's perfectly reasonable all week... probably only sneaking a nip or two for an "eyeopener". Friday night is his free-for-all, since "You can't be an alcoholic if you only get drunk once a week."

Anyone who's never at the mercy of binge behavior probably wouldn't understand the similarities between the two. No, carbs are not intoxicating, per se, but if you've ever been around a bulimic, or God forbid, have bulimia you could describe the pull of the sugar and forbidden foods in similar language. In the midst of a binge, a bulimic has the same sense of suspended time, euphoria, the drive to continue eating even though it's no longer pleasurable...that "eat 'til it's gone" feeling.

[Dean4Prez]

I hope for her sake that your gf never gains weight or does something that's not exactly to your liking if bullying and humiliation are what you deem acceptable treatment of someone you're suppossed to love!!
Well, if my girlfriend gained a significant amount of weight for no good reason, I might stop her midway through dessert sometime and say something like, "Tell me -- is the pleasure you'll get from finishing that more important to you than the pleasure I get from your healthy body?" If she continued eating after that, I would give serious consideration to dumping her so she could find herself a man that likes fat chicks. I wouldn't go any farther than that to try to change her behavior. A relationship with a girlfriend is disposable -- there are plenty more fish in the sea.

But if my wife (11 years on December 19) were to gain an unhealthy amount of weight for no good reason, I would do what I needed to get her to start losing it, starting with asking nicely and progressing all the way to bullying or humiliation if necessary and if I thought it would do any good. Marriages are NOT disposable.

Of course, the time she gained about 50 pounds (for a good reason -- she was suffering from migraine headaches that kept her on the couch for months), I didn't even have to ask her to start losing weight. She knows how much I enjoy her body when it's healthy, and my enjoyment and happiness is important to her. And her enjoyment and happiness is important to me, by the way.

You're obviously not familiar with the concept of unconditional love!!
Unconditional love? Yeah, that's what my wife's ex-husband expected from her when he, ahem, started to gain weight and also allowed his parents to interfere with his marriage. She's been married to me a lot longer than she was married to him.

Unconditional love is for children, and immature "adults" who didn't get enough of it in their childhoods -- and that's showbiz, kid.

I mean c'mon "If you care enough about someone to marry them in the first place, you ought to care enough to bully or humiliate". What a lovely view of relationships you have!!!!
It's called Tough Love. Sometimes it's necessary. I don't think it will ever be necessary in our marriage, but I'm willing to try it if nothing else I tried worked.

[kyrasdad]

The thing is, Dean, I'm guessing the reality is that it wouldn't work at all. People don't tend to respond to that. You would need to find a better way.

[Dean4Prez]

Not to mention that it is usually ineffective to bully someone.I just have this vision of a psychology B.A. grad in line on the first day of boot camp. "Excuse me? Sergeant? I know you mean well, but it's usually ineffective to bully and humiliate someone." :)

I doubt that the person who wrote that has ever had any success changing anyone's behavior through humiliation & bullying. (Dean4Prez can correct me if he has; I don't expect to see a correction).
I've never needed to; my wife and I are adults (for the most part), not arrested adolescents. However, I've seen bullying and humiliation work to change people's behavior. I've never been in the military (flunked the physical when I was at my fittest), but back in the '80s I did est -- I remember one est trainer, a petite Japanese woman who could have intimidated R. Lee Ermey. My wife tells me that her parents bullied her into always cleaning her plate before leaving the table -- does that ring a bell with anyone here?

You really cannot change people.
Yeah, all the incompetent therapists agree.

I cannot imagine a situation where humiliation would work on my wife, even if I had the heart to employ it. It isn't conceivable to me that I'd ever do it, that I could be that cruel, even to a noble end.
I don't think there's any situation where it would work on my wife either, and I'm not sure I would be successful if I got into a situation where I'd exhausted all the alternatives and was left with bullying or humiliation as my only alternatives to leaving her. But it's inconceivable to me that I wouldn't even TRY.

[mildwild]

Humiliation is what got me where I am right now...just to let you guys know.

I worked at a walmart, and went back after having quit about 3-4 months earlier. One of the girls I worked with, in front of plenty of customers and other ex-coworkers and supervisors says to me "you've gained weight haven't you, you got fat." It was just humiliating enough to work. Mind you it was only about 20 lbs, but that does make a difference, it was humiliating and that day things changed.

That was in October.

-mildwild

[Plagiomom]

Hi Dean,

I'm curious - you said if your wife gained weight for no good reason that you would stoop to humiliation. Are you familiar with every medical condition that cause problems with weight? How would feel if you were oinking at your wife, and then discovered years later that there was a physical cause for her weight gain? Chances are it probably would be too late, at that point, to put the pieces of your marriage together.

After I married my husband, it could be construed as I "let myself go". All sorts of horrible things were happening to my body, but the weight was the most apparent. The first doctor I went to, told me I was a hypocondriac and that if I would just lose weight I would feel better. DUH! At that point, judging by what I've read, my husband should have humiliated and degraded me - because after all, there was nothing wrong with me.

It turned out after switching doctors I was diagnosed with PCOS - a hormonal condition which is very real, but for some reason many doctors (especially male doctors) don't "believe" in it. Now we know what's wrong, everything should be fine, right? Wrong! Things were still spiraling out of control and my body was still turning against me. But I was under the care of a physician, I was being treated, so I guess this would have been a good time for my husband to start oinking at me and debasing me as a human to make me lose weight? Or maybe he should have walked out, since I obviously didn't respect him because of my weight gain?

As it turned out a year or so later I was diagnosed with 2 more hormonal type disorders - Late Onset Adrenal Hyperplasia, and Hypothyroid. And I was also diagnosed with Insulin Resistance which could turn to diabetes.

If you were to look at me, I do not convey a person who has health issues. If you were to look at me, you would see a woman who "let herself go". Things are not always what they appear on the outside. I have 3 disorders that cause weight gain, and I'm on hormone replacement drugs which also cause weight gain, not even touching on all the OTHER things that these disorders cause. This has been an ongoing thing for my husband and I for 6 years (we've been married for 7)! If my husband had turned to the tactics you mentioned, his butt would have been sitting on the corner with all his stuff long ago...and there would have been no chance of "gee honey, I'm sorry, I didn't know that you had medical problems. I just did it because I thought you were 'letting yourself go!' and I HAD to try something!"

It makes no sense to me that if your wife gained weight due to a medical problem, that you would be all kind and caring - but if there was no medical problem you would humiliate her so that she would lose weight. How would you KNOW at what point it would be okay to start the bullying? Would you make her go to a doctor, get the all clear then start the debasing? What if the doctor was a quack, like the first one I saw? Do you think, if a medical problem was found that you could take it all back after years of torment and she would understand?

I'm curious how people who think humiliation is okay would handle something like this. It looks like many people think this is a black and white issue - but I've been through the medical end, and it's not always that way, and can take a long time to figure out what the heck is going on. It's not like you could look at me and say "ooooh, she has adrenal hyperplasia, PCOS and hypothyroid, and is insulin resistant, no wonder she has problems with weight!" and it's definitely not something that you would be able to tell with your wife either - all you would see is her porking up, and having other weird problems which many doctors may not recongnize as actual symptoms to "uncommon" disorders.

[kyrasdad]

I just have this vision of a psychology B.A. grad in line on the first day of boot camp. "Excuse me? Sergeant? I know you mean well, but it's usually ineffective to bully and humiliate someone." :)

Talk about your apples and your oranges. Organizational behavior is, as you probably know, quite a lot different than interpersonal behavior. And of course, the military does other things within that context than humiliate. They break down to build up, but it's systematic. It is designed to a great degree to bond the soldiers to each other. You aren't talking about the same dynamic as a 1-1 relationship.

Yeah, all the incompetent therapists agree.

I'll stand by that. People have to decide to change themselves. You can influence that. You can't do it for them. Therapists are the same, although perhaps better trained at it.

I don't think there's any situation where it would work on my wife either, and I'm not sure I would be successful if I got into a situation where I'd exhausted all the alternatives and was left with bullying or humiliation as my only alternatives to leaving her. But it's inconceivable to me that I wouldn't even TRY.

You'd fail most likely. You would do more damage than good. I've said before that fat people are not easily moved by humiliation or ridicule. If they have been longterm fat, they have had plenty of both.

[komireds]

As for "more respect," I just don't feel I have enough experience with alcoholism to draw any conclusions about it.


well, you seem to have drawn many conclusions anyway....interesting that this comment came AFTER you went on the "twinkie defense" diatribe.... :wiggle:

[tholian8]

There's another old man who saves it up all week, and Friday night is his "night off". He's perfectly reasonable all week... probably only sneaking a nip or two for an "eyeopener". Friday night is his free-for-all, since "You can't be an alcoholic if you only get drunk once a week."

He might not even be sneaking anything. In my volunteer work with harm reduction, I've met plenty of people who abstained completely from their substance of choice all week, then had a blowout on Friday or Saturday, and returned to abstinence until the next weekend.

Emily

[gotbeer]

(from Lisa on the previous page)
I think you may have a different understanding of unconditional love than I do. Unconditional love means that you love someone no matter what. It's given willingly and freely with no strings attached, no having to meet your demands/requests, to receive that love.
I'm not sure such a thing as your unconditional love actually exists within a sane relationship. Ask yourself - would you still unconditionally love your SO (1) if he cheated on you? (2) Abused you or your kids? (3) Committed a heinous crime?

I rather doubt it - though we do have a stunning example of such love in Wanda Barzee, who stuck by her man, Brian David Mitchell, through it all. (They are the couple accused in the Elizabeth Smart abduction.) Now, you can brush off her actions as demented or whatever, but they are also reflect an extreme emotional commitment so perfect that it appeared to have no conditions whatsoever. She asked for no fidelity, no home, no income, no adherence to the law, no nothing, and she seems to have complied with his will on everything.

Unconditionally.

...I don't have a problem with my DH making a reasonable request of me for change...
Ah, our list of conditions now grows to 4:

1. I'll love you only if you are faithful.
2. I'll love you only if you are non-abusive to me and my kids.
3. I'll love you only if you don't commit a heinous crime.
4. I'll love you only if your requests are reasonable.

These a sane, reasonable expectations in most relationships, but they are still conditions. The love in that relationship is therefore conditional - NOT unconditional.

If you really think about it honestly, I'll bet you could find dozens, if not hundreds of factors underlying your love for your SO. Some transgressions of these conditions might be instantly fatal (cheating), others might be merely corrosive to the relationship in varying degrees, but all of them could lead to the demise of the relationship.

So, given that you have all these conditions, why not allow your SO to have one of his own? Like, "stay thin" or "lose weight"? Isn't that a bit more reasonable than "hey, let's go kidnap a new 14-year old for me to marry, too"?

Another example...let's say that my DH feels that my doing low carb is unhealthy (he doesn't) and asks me to go back to the ADA diet that I was following before. Should I be willing to fall all over myself to comply?
If your love is unconditional, it sure as hell is. Wanda Barzee would've complied in a heartbeat - but then, her love was unconditional. Your love comes with conditions, so, happily, you need not comply.

[komireds]

So, given that you have all these conditions, why not allow your SO to have one of his own? Like, "stay thin" or "lose weight"? Isn't that a bit more reasonable than "hey, let's go kidnap a new 14-year old for me to marry, too"?


.


Ha ha ha! Ok, you and you alone brought that comparison up, so this rhetorical question really carries no weight in this argument. Any sane individual would say that it is "more" reasonable to ask someone to lose weight than to ask someone to commit a felony, but no one suggested that.

Unconditional love debate aside, I DO NOT think it is reasonable for my SO to expect me to conform to his or her idea of what I should look like. But that's just me..and my feelings about that are reflected in who I choose to date (i.e. I only date folks who share similar ideas regarding respect and love).

[gotbeer]

Ok, you and you alone brought that comparison up, so this rhetorical question really carries no weight in this argument.
Sure it does - what they suggested was that unconditional love somehow is an excuse to ignore a loved one's desires. My point is that their love is actually conditional after all, and so they ought to be open to the reasonable counter-conditions.

Still don't buy it? Here is a further list of The Conditions of Unconditional Love. Take your pick - if NONE of these conditions exists in your relationship, then yours may be a true unconditional love.

(Adapted from the book "Against Love", by Laura Kipnis. Any errors are likely my typos - there is no link because I typed them in myself.)

You can't leave the house without saying where you're going. You can't not say what time you will return. You can't stay out past midnight, or 11, or 10, or dinnertime, or not come right home after work. You can't go out when the other person feels like staying home. You can't go to parties alone. You can't go out just to go out, because you can't not be considerate of the other person's worries about where you are, or their natural insecurities that you're not where you should be, or about where you should be instead. You can't make plans without consulting the other person, particularly not evenings and weekends, or make decisions about leisure time usage without a consultation.

You can't be a slob. You can't do less than 50 percent around the house, even if the other person wants to do 100 percent to 200 percent more housecleaning than you find necessary or even reasonable. You can't leave your (pick one) books, tissues, shoes, makeup, mail, underwear, work, sewing stuff, or pornography lying around the house. You can't smoke, or you can't smoke in the house, or you can't leave cigarettes in cups. You can't amass more knickknacks than the other person finds tolerable - likewise sports paraphernalia, Fiestaware, or Daffy Duck collectibles.

You can't leave the dishes for later, wash the dishes badly, not use soap, drink straight from the container, make crumbs without wiping them up (now, not later), or load the dishwasher according to the method that seems most sensible to you. You can't use dishes directly out of the dishwasher without unloading the whole thing. You can't accumulate things that you think you might use someday if the other person thinks you won't. You can't throw wet clothes in the laundry hamper. You can't have a comfortable desk, because it doesn't fit the decor. You can't not notice whether the house is neat or messy. You can't not share responsibility for domestic decisions the other person has made that you've gone along with to be nice but don't really care about. You can't hire a house cleaner, because your mate is a socialist and can't live with the idea.

You can't leave the bathroom door open; it's offensive. You can't leave the bathroom door closed; they need to get in. You can't enter without knocking. You can't leave the toilet seat up. You can't read on the john without commentary. You can't leave bloody things in the bathroom wastebasket. You can't leave female hygiene products out. You can't wash your dirty hands in the kitchen sink. You have to load the toilet paper "over" instead of "under". You're not allowed to pay no attention to what you'd simply rather ignore: your own nose hair, underarm hair, or toenails. You can't not make the bed. You can't not express appreciation when the other person makes the bed, even if you don't care. You can't sleep apart, you can't go to bed at different times, you can't fall asleep on the couch without getting woken up to go to bed. You can't eat in bed. You can't get out of bed right away after sex. You can't have insomnia without being grilled about what's really bothering you. You can't turn the air conditioner up as far as you want. You can't sleep late if the other person wants to get up early. Or you can't sleep late because it is a sign of moral turpitude.

You can't watch soap operas without getting made fun of. You can't watch infomercials, or the pregame show, or Martha Stewart, or shows in which men are humiliated in front of women or are made to play the buffoon. You can't watch porn. You can't leave CNN on as background. You can't psychologically withdraw into sports even if it's your only mode of anxiety release. You can't listen to Bob Dylan or other excesses of your youth. You can't go out to play pinball; it's regressive. You can't smoke pot. You can't drink during the day, even on weekends. You can't take naps when the other person is home because the mate feels leisure time should be shared. You can't work when you are supposed to be relaxing. You can't spend too much time on the computer. And stay out of those chat rooms! You can't have email flirtations, even if innocent. You can't play computer solitaire because the clicking drives the other person crazy. You can't talk on the phone when they're home working. You can't talk on the phone when they're in the room without them commenting on the conversation, or trying to talk to you at the same time. Your best friend can't call you after 10. You can't read without them starting to talk, and you're not allowed to read when they are talking to you. You can't not pay attention to their presence.

You can't be impulsive, self-absorbed, or distracted. You can't take risks, unless they're agreed-upon risks. You can't just quit your job in a huff. You can't make unilateral career decisions, or change jobs without extensive discussion and negotiation. You can't have your own bank account. You can't make major purchases alone, or spend money on things the other person considers excesses; you can't blow your money because you are in a really bad mood, and you can't be in a bad mood without being required to explain it. You can't have secrets - about money or anything else.

You can't eat what you want. You can't skip meals. You can't eat alone. You can't break your diet. You can't eat butter if they're monitoring your cholesterol. You can't cook cauliflower even if you don't expect the other person to eat it. You can't use enough salt to give the food some flavor without it being seen as a criticism of their cooking. You can't refuse to share your entree when dining out, or order what you want without negotiations far surpassing the Oslo Accords. You can't blow your nose at the table. You can't read the newspaper at meals. You can't eat things that give you gas. You can't make jokes about gas.

You can't drink without the other person counting your drinks. You can't bum cigarettes because it embarrasses your mate, even though you explain about the unspoken fraternity between smokers. You can't not "fit in". You must not dance because you're a terrible dancer (according to your mate; you happen to disagree). You can't leave a place before they're ready to go. You can't be late, even if you prefer being late. You can't dawdle. You can't lose track of time, especially when engaged in something without your mate, like you email. You can't forget things and then go back for them once the door is closed. You can't drive too fast, or faster than your mate defines as fast. You can't tailgate; you can't honk. You may not criticize the other person's driving, signaling, or lane-changing habits. You can't listen to talk radio in the car. You can't get angry when driving, or swear at other drivers.

You can't say the wrong thing, even in situations where there's no right thing to say. You can't use the "wrong tone of voice," and you can't deny the wrong-tone-of-voice accusation when it's made. You can't repeat yourself; you can't be overly self-dramatic; you can't know things the other person doesn't know, or appear to parade your knowledge. You can't overly celebrate your own accomplishments, particularly if the mate is less successful. You can't ask for help and then criticize the mode of help, or reject it. You can't not produce reassurances when asked for, or more frequently, when they're not asked for yet expected. You can't begin a sentence with "You always...". You can't begin a sentence with "I never...". You can't be simplistic, even when things are simple. You are not permitted to employ the Socratic Method in an argument. You can't say what you think about the mate's family. You also can't compare the mate to any of their family members, especially not the same-sex parent. You can't be less concerned with the other persons vulnerability than with expressing your opinions. You can't express inappropriate irony about something the other person takes seriously. Or appropriate anger at something the other person takes casually. You can't call a handyman to fix something if they consider themselves "handy". You can't not be supportive, even when the mate does something insupportable. You can't analyze the cinematography in a movie that they were emotional about. You can't not participate in the mini-dramas about other people's incompetence, or rudeness, or existence. You can't make a joke that the other person could potentially construe as unconsciously aimed at them. You can't talk about religion, politics, Germany, Israel, the class struggle. You can't tell Polish jokes. You can't make puns or tell dirty jokes or relate overly lengthy anecdotes. You can't make jokes about bald spots, ear shape, fat, or any other sensitivity, even if you didn't know until that moment that it was an area of sensitivity. You can't talk about your crush on your shrink. You can't talk about past relationships. Or you can't NOT talk about past relationships, and can't refuse to reveal all the long-forgotten details when asked. You can't refuse to talk about what you talked about in therapy. But you can't "overanalyze" either, or import psychological terminology into your relationship. You can't not "communicate your feelings". Except when those feelings are critical, which they should not be.

Thus is love obtained.

[komireds]

I never argued for unconditional love. There are certainly conditions in relationships. And one of MY conditions for a relationship is that my partner respect me. Shaming or humiliating me into doing something is not respecting me; therefore, the relationship would not meet my conditions and I would be outta there. You may be different. To each his own.

And my point about the Smart case was that such a hyperbolic rhetorical question brings the entire argument to a farcical level and therefore leads nowhere.

[Scarlet]

Unconditional love means loving someone in spite of the things that annoy you. It's still possible to love someone even if they don't fulfil everything you want in an "ideal world". THATS unconditional love. It's nothing to do with being some type of saint who never gets annoyed at the little things their partner does.


Boy look where"Andy and Candy" have led us!!!!!

[potatofree]

My 2 cents on humiliation.

Yes, humiliation is a motivator to get people to lose weight. Much like alcoholics, many overearters have to "hit bottom" before they get help, be it from a doctor, a group of taunting children/adults, not being able to fit in a ride with your child at the fair...etc..

My point is, that kind of painful humiliation happens... but should it be dispensed by someone who professes to love you? Isn't there enough pain to be had without feeling you have the right to inflict it on your spouse? Or is it that it's not happening fast enough to suit the one handing it out?

[gotbeer]

Whom would you rather have ask you to lose weight?

Your spouse?
A perfect stranger?

If we are to believe Andy, Candy would rather hear it from a stranger. Personally, I'd rather hear it from someone who loves me, because I could trust their motives more easily.

Unconditional love means loving someone in spite of the things that annoy you.
Indeed, much as Wanda Barzee never made a fuss.

If your love is unconditional, you would not complain about being asked to slim down - you would happily comply.

If your love is conditional, you would complain, whine, cry out in vain, hit back with a hurtful counter-remark, eat more carbs, storm off in a huff, etc. It is all a part of the vast, endless power struggle that occurs in intense conditional negotiations that represent real-world love.

The most aggressive response would be to comply, lose weight, then dress provocatively to make your spouse seethe as other people come on to you. That way you get the health benefits AND the revenge all in one tasty package.

[komireds]

Whom would you rather have ask you to lose weight?



If your love is unconditional, you would not complain about being asked to slim down - you would happily comply.

If your love is conditional, you would complain, whine, cry out in vain, hit back with a hurtful counter-remark, eat more carbs, storm off in a huff, etc. It is all a part of the vast, endless power struggle that occurs in intense conditional negotiations that represent real-world love.

.


wait a second....weren't you just arguing that love is, in effect, conditional? Am I then to assume that you would complain, whine, cry out in vain, hit back. etc....

I now have no idea what you are arguing for or against.....

[gotbeer]

My points are these:

Love isn't unconditional.

It is conditional for everyone (except maybe Wanda).

The conditions of love are negotiated. A request to lose weight is merely another condition to be negotiated.

Those in love should not be discouraged by the hystrionics that sometimes accompany these negotiations; nor should they accept the false excuse that "love should be unconditional".

[adkpam]

Unconditional love has to be defined properly to be understood.

What's unconditional?
It's not putting strings on the emotional. Conditional is: I will love you if you clean your plate/stop flirting at parties/give up the ax murdering. UNConditional is: I love you regardless of conditions.

HOWEVER:

What's love?
Love is about both giving and receiving. Or it's not love, it's only dependence, or control, or desperation.
Love says, I love you even if you screw up. Love says, Gee, you keep screwing up, and putting strains on our relationship, and make me feel unloved. Love says, Since you keep treating me badly, you must not love me.
And so, love cannot exist without being returned, since there isn't any coming in from that source. And thus unconditional love has only one condition: it must be returned.
Doesn't matter if the other party is the theater, your newborn baby, your best friend, or your significant other.

This is the crucial difference in what poor Wanda has and what true love is. True love goes both ways.
Think about unrequited crushes, and relationships where one party is treated like dirt, and a fan stalking a celebrity. They say it's LOVE.
But one way love ain't love.

[komireds]

My points are these:


The conditions of love are negotiated. A request to lose weight is merely another condition to be negotiated.

".


A request to lose weight could very well be reasonable (depending on how it is approached). However, humiliation or emotional manipulation is not acceptable. This is what this whole debate is about, after all. And if you want to keep trying to convice us that humiliation is a viable tactic with a loved one, gotbeer, then go right ahead. I'm afraid you won't convince anyone of that. Unless, of course, it is yourself that you are trying to convince.....

[komireds]

Hey gotbeer,

I just realized that I had been confusing you with Dean4Prez. I don't think you have condoned the humiliation of loved ones on this thread, so I probably should have addressed my last comments to him instead....

[Lisa N]

A request to lose weight could very well be reasonable (depending on how it is approached). However, humiliation or emotional manipulation is not acceptable.

Which has pretty much been my whole point. The idea that abuse, whether it be emotional, mental or physical, is appropriate within a relationship as long as the motiviation is right is unacceptable to me and, I hope, to most others.
I'd really like to see someone use the defense, "Well, yeah, your Honor, I beat my girlfriend, but I was trying to motivate her to lose weight and get healthier....". Somehow, I don't think that the judge would excuse the abuse because the abuser was trying to motivate the abused to do something to better their health. I don't see harming someone psychologically or emotionally in order to bring about an improvement in their appearance for your visual pleasure as an even trade-off. I don't see it as loving to get what you want at the expense of the person that you supposedly love.
As for unconditional love having conditions, let me explain. I love my children unconditionally and for no other reason than the fact that they are my children. That doesn't, however, mean that I will always like what they do. There is a distinction there between the person (who they are) and their behavior (what they DO).
As far as weight loss, I agree that it has to be your own decision or you will not be motivated to see it through. That doesn't mean that part of your own internal motivation can't or won't be because you love those in your life. My first motivation to lose weight was because of my health. Why? Quite frankly, I wasn't ready to die just yet and I could see that it was probably in the much too near future if I didn't do something about it. Embedded in that was also the fact that I love my DH and don't want to leave him a widow at an early age as well as leaving my girls without a mother at a young age because I love them too. My DH loved me enough to let me come to that conclusion on my own.
It seems we've gone from one extreme to the other in this discussion. It's either say nothing, or stoop to abuse to get your SO to lose weight or protect their health. What about discussing, encouraging, requesting, expressing concern for their health? These seem to me to be much more positive motivators than shaming, humiliating and badgering someone into what you want. What if they still won't? Then you have a decision to make. You can either choose to stick it out "for better or for worse" or you can bail....your choice.

[gotbeer]

What about discussing, encouraging, requesting, expressing concern for their health?

Here's how that discussion goes:

Him: "Honey, I would very much appreciate it if we could get together and talk honestly about going on a diet together."

Her: <Sob!> "You think I'm a fat cow!! How dare you abuse me like that!!"

Him: "I'm sorry, that is not what I meant. I phrased that badly and I apologize. I meant to say that I love you and because I love you, I'm worried about your health and mine."

Her: <Sniff!> "You're going to leave me!!"

Him: "Not at all. I just think we can improve our relationship if we improve our eating habits."

Her: <Wailing louder> "What's wrong with our relationship?! You are supposed to love me unconditionally, you b*st*rd! This is emotional abuse!! What have I done to deserve this?! I saw a Springer episode like this! Are you banging my sister and my mom?"

And so on...

No matter how gentle the inquiry, it will be interpreted as emotional abuse. The only actual emotional abuse in this situation is being perpetrated by the woman on the man (and on herself through her own leaps of intuition), although SHE would say that SHE was the one being hurt by him.

Let's hope the poor guy is smart enough not to tell the truth: that he finds it increasingly difficult to function sexually with an inflating wife, even with the Viagra. What a fight THAT would be!

In this sense, I guess I HAVE condoned the "abuse" because it is impossible to discuss this issue with a spouse without it being interpreted as abuse (regardless of how it was intended).

[gotbeer]

I found an article with another take on this issue.

link to full article (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1070444895346&p=1006953079865)

Dec. 3, 2003

No ladies, and no gentlemen

By SHMULEY BOTEACH

excerpt:

Over the last few months I have received loads of e-mails from husbands who complain that their wives are too fat, and they have no idea how to tell them diplomatically that they should lose a ton or two.

"Nothing would make me happier than for me and my wife to have a passionate romantic life again. But let's get real, Shmuley. When we married she was a size six. Now she has trouble squeezing into a size 18."

Another husband echoed the sentiment. "Being married to my wife I feel like a polygamist. She's so large it's like I'm married to two women."

Yet another wrote, "While some guys get to see their wives in bikinis, I am afraid to take my wife to the beach for fear that she'll get harpooned. I have tried everything to encourage her to diet. She takes offense and kicks me out of the bed, which is OK since I barely fit in anyway."

Husbands who are married to women who let themselves go use it as ample justification for either their indulgence in pornography, affairs, or ignoring their wives and watching television.

But before we get all cozy with the notion that wives are indulging their maternal instincts by appearing permanently pregnant and devouring even the wood of the kitchen cupboards, it is first worth noting the hypocrisy on the part of contemporary husbands who maintain that only their wives need appear sexy while they can have endless folds of whale blubber hanging down their stomachs.

Sorry guys, but your wife doesn't want to be married to the Pillsbury dough boy. You complain that it is challenging to sharing a bedroom with the Goodyear blimp, but having the Michelin man in bed with you is equally challenging. If you want her to get rid of her thunder-thighs, then perhaps you should consider taking a chainsaw to your love handles.

More important, though, is the question of who is to blame for the burgeoning size of the modern wife. Some would say it's the fact that after having children her misshapen body can often not throw off the added weight. But blaming the kids for being bloated is an unfair burden to slam on your children.

Telling your son "Mommy started looking like a hippo after you were born" is not going to improve your child's self-esteem. Still others attribute a wife letting herself go to the enormous responsibilities that women who have to balance family and career carry, leaving them little time for a healthy diet and exercise.

Yet, these same wives who have little time to look after themselves in their marriages suddenly find a huge amount of time to beautify themselves if they decide to have an affair, and indeed one of the biggest giveaways of a wife's infidelity is when she suddenly begins exercising, dieting, and wearing silk undergarments instead of cotton.

WHICH LEADS me to the following unassailable conclusion. When wives put on a lot of weight it is almost always the fault of an inattentive, unloving, or distracted husband. When a woman's looks no longer mean anything to her it's because she's married to a man whom she thinks doesn't notice her anyway.

Even brainy career women who wish to be appreciated for their minds rather than their bodies still wish to be physically desirable. What woman doesn't want to be regarded as beautiful? How much more so a married woman who revels in her husband's attention.

The blame lies with her husband who usually is lazy and doesn't help with the household responsibilities, and in addition, long ago stopped noticing her when she did get dressed up so she concludes, why bother?

"With all the responsibilities I have with the kids, my job, and running the home, why put time into my appearance when he never looks anyway."

The healthiest diet for a woman is to feed off her husband's compliments. When told by the man she loves that she is beautiful, a woman is given the incentive to live up to the compliment.

Silence and indifference, however, are like junk food that bloat her and make her fat. Indeed, marriage runs on what I call the football-fat equation. Every hour he puts into watching mindless TV sports equals one extra pound on his wife's backside. Pretty soon she starts looking like a linebacker.

A man from Los Angeles wrote to me about how his wife grew faster horizontally than their two-year-old grew vertically.

"There is no easy way to tell your wife she's fat," he wrote. "Yes," I agreed. "But there is a very easy way to tell her she has beautiful hair, a beautiful smile, and beautiful skin, even if she's overweight. Pretty soon she'll want to be prettier. It's all in your hands."

To another complaining husband I wrote, "When was the last time you took your wife to the mall to buy her clothes, helped her try them on, and told her what she looks best in?"

Would a woman who lived alone on a desert island get dressed up every day to please the coconut trees? And if she lives alone in the solitary island of a lonely marriage, will she not console herself by indulging in the sensual pleasure of food when she is bereft of the sensual pleasure of touch?

While husbandly apathy is the main cause of a wife's weight gain, telling her she is beautiful even when she is overweight is a better weight-loss program than the Atkins, South Beach, and Dr. Phil diets combined.

If your wife has grown too wide, encourage her to trim down not by telling her she's fat, but by telling her she's gorgeous. Her feeling that you notice her beauty will inspire her to notice her weight. This might sound simplistic, and it is. Simply stated, it works. The next time you notice that your wife has added a couple of pounds, perhaps it is you, rather than her, who should be looking in the mirror.

[Lisa N]

No matter how gentle the inquiry, it will be interpreted as emotional abuse.

Talk about generalizations and blanket statements! :lol: I get the impression that you think of all women as hysterically unreasonable. :rolleyes: It might be interpreted as emotional abuse if DH (interpret that 'D' any way you will) has a history of paying more attention to the latest football game than his wife and kids, is more interested in his buddy's car than her, never gives her a compliment and would yawn and ask "What's for dinner?" if she greeted him at the door with nothing on but a smile or told her to stop blocking the TV if she stood in front of it wearing the sexiest outfit she owned. On the other hand, in a loving relationship where two people actually pay attention to each other and are interested in each other's lives and have an actual discussion once in a while about something other than how rough a day he had at the office or whether she washed his favorite pants or not, that discussion might go something more like this:

Him: Honey, I'm worried about you. You're tired all the time and hardly have enough energy when you get home from work to make it through the evening news without falling asleep. Maybe it would be a good idea to see the doctor to find out what's causing you to be so tired all the time? I could stand to lose a few pounds and I've gotten kind of out of shape the past few years, so what do you think about going on a diet together and maybe joining a gym? We can encourage each other.

Her: You're right. I am tired all the time lately. Maybe it would be a good idea to make a doctor appointment. As for the diet...well...I guess I could stand to lose a few pounds as well. What type of diet are you thinking of? Not rice cakes and dry chicken, I hope. I don't think I could stick with that. I'm not sure we can afford a gym membership right now and I honestly don't have the energy for it, but we could go for a nice long walk together every night once I start feeling better and work from there.

Him: Let's do some research on diets to see what would be a plan that we both could follow. I know you hate those rice cakes and I'm not too keen on rabbit food, either.

Her: Okay...I'll make that doctor appointment and how about we go to the bookstore tonight to look for books on diet and excercise?

Him: It's a date. I'll even ask my sister if she'll watch the kids for a few hours so we won't have to keep them from tearing up the bookstore while we look. Maybe we could even squeeze in some time for some coffee and talk about the books we've found?

Better? Much. You can approach the subject by making observations about behavior and symptoms without attacking your SO personally (as in, "God, you're getting so fat, you fall asleep as soon as the dinner dishes are done and you plop your fat ass on the couch to watch the news!"). See the difference?
A person who would react as you predict in your hypothetical discussion above, most likely has been feeling slighted and unappreciated for quite some time and that discussion was all it took to uncork the bottled up emotions she's been keeping for quite a while.

[gotbeer]

Talk about generalizations and blanket statements! I get the impression that you think of all women as hysterically unreasonable.
Your impression is absolutely correct: When it comes to the subject of weight, and the concern comes from her husband, I'd say yes - all women are hysterically unreasonable. 100%. No exceptions, now or ever.

Not all women have breasts. Not all women have a uterus. Not all women wear dresses. Not all women can bear children. Not all women have hair. Those hedges I can accept - no problem.

But the claim that not all women are hysterically unreasonable about another's concern about their weight? What sort of woman could that possibly be? The thin ones, perhaps? Nope - they'd be even more hysterical. Were there any women on this thread who defended Andy? Or upbraided Candy for letting herself go? Even if a woman ever dared to do that, she would roasted alive by any woman who heard her.

One does occasionally stumble upon a historical time or isolated culture where fat was considered beautiful in women, but those times have passed, and those cultures, once they see enough "Baywatch" on their TV's, change pretty damn quick to the universal hysteria of the lipophobic. Those few men who might prefer a heavier woman are derided as "chubby chasers".

Men would love to be able to talk openly and directly about this problem with their wives. Men are simple creatures: man see problem, man grab problem, man fix problem, man happy. We don't like to (or understand how to) hedge and dodge around the edges of an issue, hoping that the woman gets the hints. We have few natural skills with hints, either giving them or reading them.

A man who "emotionally abuses" his wife (whether gently or harshly) does so because he is frustrated - he has tried to be straight with her, has suffered through the bewildering, hysterical counter-reaction, and is now lost. He believes she is resisting to spite him. He wonders what happened to the smart, reasonable, beautiful, sexy woman he married. He is angry and in a pain that he cannot express to anyone because he is a man. He is becoming a wolf in a snare and he will chew his leg off - lose his wife and children - to escape. He may even stoop so low as to ask another person for help - the ultimate humiliation for any self-respecting man.

Deny this all you want, but it is being played out everywhere every damn day. I found out yesterday that my girlfriend's household is breaking up - the chubby dad (her uncle, 300 lbs) just got an apartment; the chubby mom (her aunt, 280 lbs) is devastated. Chubby dad has already dropped 15 lbs on Atkins; chubby mom is still resisting it. Same old story - they would rather suffer divorce than deign to try to understand each other, because divorce hurts less.

Him: Honey, I'm worried about you. You're tired all the time and hardly have enough energy when you get home from work to make it through the evening news without falling asleep. Maybe it would be a good idea to see the doctor to find out what's causing you to be so tired all the time? I could stand to lose a few pounds and I've gotten kind of out of shape the past few years, so what do you think about going on a diet together and maybe joining a gym? We can encourage each other.
96 words / 5 sentences from a guy? In one batch? In a conversation with his wife? Oh, please.

Two obvious objections:

First, what man could muster that level of sustained, spoken verbosity in a marital confrontation? Indeed, what male marital conversation in the history of the planet ever averaged almost 20 words per sentence? Even if I rehearsed that speech for days, I could never get through it all without sounding like a complete phony to anyone within earshot.

Second, what woman could sit through all 5 sentences without interrupting 18 times (7 of those cellphone calls to consult with girlfriends) - particularly on such an explosive topic?

[potatofree]

Gotbeer-- sorry you've obviously been scarred by some female in your life. Much as I would like to say all men are scum because of the actions of my ex and the slimy cheaters I've seen when I was bartending, I know better. Someday, you'll realize that not all women are as you portray.

[adkpam]

Gotbeer, I found the answer for you in Dana Carpender's book, "How I Gave Up My Lowfat Diet and Lost Forty Pounds." She said that as a speaker on low carb issues, she is often asked why women are so obsessed/sensitive about weight issues. She said one can consider the following example:

Suppose, in our society, men were told that if they just cared enough, tried hard enough, and had enough willpower, they could increase the size of their manly accessory, which was required to be on display whenever they left the house.

[gotbeer]

Gotbeer-- sorry you've obviously been scarred by some female in your life. Much as I would like to say all men are scum because of the actions of my ex and the slimy cheaters I've seen when I was bartending, I know better. Someday, you'll realize that not all women are as you portray.
When I find one, I'll let you know, but I'm afraid I'll have to keep her identity a secret - I wouldn't want to fight off all the other guys who would want her, or all the women who would kill her.

Suppose, in our society, men were told that if they just cared enough, tried hard enough, and had enough willpower, they could increase the size of their manly accessory, which was required to be on display whenever they left the house.

For "manly accessory", do you mean wallet? :blush:

I mean, it is on display whenever I leave the house, and determination and hard work actually CAN improve that, and it seems the fatter it gets, the more female attention it draws.

[Lisa N]

96 words / 5 sentences from a guy? In one batch? In a conversation with his wife? Oh, please.

Why not? My DH and I have discussions such as that all the time and no, I don't interrupt him every 5 words to take a cell phone call or consult my girlfriends. It's called having a discussion and I can't believe that we are that much of a rarity that you've never encountered it before. Just because you can't conceive of communicating on that level doesn't mean it's not possible for any man to do so.


First, what man could muster that level of sustained, spoken verbosity in a marital confrontation?

My husband could and does and the above was not a marital confrontation, it was an example of a civil, non-attacking, non-confrontational discussion. And if by "marital confrontation", you mean argument, I can count on one hand the number of those we've had in 18 years of marriage (I can think of 3, actually), which averages to 1 every 6 years. Before we were married, we could sit and talk for hours (and often did). Maybe that's because we started out as friends and have known each other since 8th grade (that's 29 years for anyone who's counting). Now, because of job and family responsibilities, we don't have that kind of time for discussion, but we still make what time we can, whether it be over dinner or while on a date.

[adkpam]

Gee, Gotbeer, all I can say is that we all make our own worlds, shaped mostly by our own perceptions.
If you perceive the world as a place of continual struggle, where everyone is out for themselves and you will do anything to get yours, that is the world you live in.
If you perceive the world as a place of misery and sin, that is the world you live in.
If you perceive the world as a place where half the people in it (that would be women) are screaming, demented, money hungry harpies, despite abundant evidence to the contrary, then that is the world you live in.
And a dim, cold, and lonely place it must be.

[Lisa N]

Gee, Gotbeer, all I can say is that we all make our own worlds, shaped mostly by our own perceptions.
If you perceive the world as a place of continual struggle, where everyone is out for themselves and you will do anything to get yours, that is the world you live in.
If you perceive the world as a place of misery and sin, that is the world you live in.
If you perceive the world as a place where half the people in it (that would be women) are screaming, demented, money hungry harpies, despite abundant evidence to the contrary, then that is the world you live in.
And a dim, cold, and lonely place it must be.

I coudn't have said it better, Pam. :thup:

[gotbeer]

Gee, Gotbeer, all I can say is that we all make our own worlds, shaped mostly by our own perceptions.

Sounds like solipsistic nonsense to me. There is only one natural world, with verifiable properties. I can't make gravity go away by failing to perceive it. The rock still falls every time. Neither can I make women deal rationally with their marital weight issues by ignoring their outrage - the rock still falls, only this time, it hits the guy in the head.

If you perceive the world as a place of continual struggle, where everyone is out for themselves and you will do anything to get yours, that is the world you live in.

You talk about it as if struggle were a bad thing. The struggle is the whole point - nothing good and worthy comes except from the crucible.

If you perceive the world as a place of misery and sin, that is the world you live in.

I don't belief in sin because I don't believe in God. And my world is not miserable for the simple fact that I am not married.

If you perceive the world as a place where half the people in it (that would be women) are screaming, demented, money hungry harpies, despite abundant evidence to the contrary, then that is the world you live in.

You've never been to Texas, obviously - women here are justifiably famous for that. The women in Arkansas are much nicer, as I understand it.

"abundant evidence to the contrary"? Where? Love to see it, if it exists - just one woman who had immediately thanked her husband (instead of exploding) for encouraging her to lose weight would do it. How hard could that be? :rolleyes:

And a dim, cold, and lonely place it must be.

I'm going out tonight with Cathy [Atkins Diet] and Melodie [South Beach Diet] in about an hour. That's plenty of bright, warm, thinning company for me, thanks. :cheer: :yum: :cheer:

[Lisa N]

Sounds like solipsistic nonsense to me. There is only one natural world, with verifiable properties. I can't make gravity go away by failing to perceive it.

Seems like you're confusing physical laws with emotion. While the law of gravity may be perfectly predictable, human emotion and interpersonal relationships are anything but.
Every hear of "self-fulfilling prophecy"? It goes something like this: if you expect the worst from someone, that's exactly what you'll likely get.
Another good saying is, "If you treat your wife like a thoroughbred, she'll never be a nag.". :lol:

[gotbeer]

Why not? My DH and I have discussions such as that all the time and no, I don't interrupt him every 5 words to take a cell phone call or consult my girlfriends. It's called having a discussion and I can't believe that we are that much of a rarity that you've never encountered it before. Just because you can't conceive of communicating on that level doesn't mean it's not possible for any man to do so.

I suppose, if her cellphone had run out of power, and if she were sufficiently passive-aggressive in her anger, a woman might keep silent and let a guy keep on sputtering out his weight concerns about her until an uncomfortable silence descended.

The mushroom cloud that follows is optional; she might simply go recharge her phone so that she could call her lawyer.

Seems like you're confusing physical laws with emotion. While the law of gravity may be perfectly predictable, human emotion and interpersonal relationships are anything but.

Some emotions may not be predictable, but in this case - telling your wife that you wish she would lose weight - the result is as certain as gravity. KA-BOOM!

Hell, when Terri Schiavo's husband tried to have her feeding tube removed, the entire state government of Florida attacked him! OK, bad, unfunny example - but I'm still waiting on a counter-example. Just show me a rock that falls UP.

[Lisa N]

Some emotions may not be predictable, but in this case - telling your wife that you wish she would lose weight - the result is as certain as gravity. KA-BOOM!

Good example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. You expect your wife to go atomic on you if you tell her you want her to lose weight, so you phrase it in a way that will give you exactly what you expect. There are many ways to tell someone the truth, some of them easier to hear and accept than others.

[TarHeel]

Men would love to be able to talk openly and directly about this problem with their wives. Men are simple creatures: man see problem, man grab problem, man fix problem, man happy. We don't like to (or understand how to) hedge and dodge around the edges of an issue, hoping that the woman gets the hints. We have few natural skills with hints, either giving them or reading them.

I'm afraid that if I read this thread in its entirety, I would be more unnerved than amused by what you write. But your opinions about women and men simply seem ridiculous to me.....my husband is the "chatty" one, I am the "let's get to the point and let me get back to my book" one. I'm sure there are some gender related generalities that ring true across the board. But we are all individuals and do not all fit into your cutter cookie philosophy.

Gotbeer, I think it is a good thing that you enjoy your unmarried state.

My husband has told me that I look beautiful almost every day since I met him twenty years ago. My weight has mostly gone up during that time. Now that I have lost weight, perhaps he says it with a bit more enthusiasm, but I know that he has always said it from the perspective of his love for me. And I know that if he sees me more positively these days, it is because he recognizes that I have lost/am losing the weight for health reasons.....and he wants me to be around for a long time.

I would not have taken well to subtle hints or badgering. I was doing enough internal badgering my ownself....to no avail.

And by the way, I don't even own a cell phone.

Kay

[Lisa N]

But your opinions about women and men simply seem ridiculous to me

They're called stereotypes which is what happens when you take your experience with a few members of a group and generalize them to the entire group. For example, one could say, "My neighbor's cow is brown, therefore ALL cows are brown." or "My boss is a jerk, therefore ALL bosses are jerks."

[Dean4Prez]

Hi Dean,
I'm curious - you said if your wife gained weight for no good reason that you would stoop to humiliation. Are you familiar with every medical condition that cause problems with weight?

I figured by the way no one else brought up "medical conditions causing weight gain" with me that everyone understood what I meant by "no good reason," but I can see that I should have made myself crystal clear. "Gaining weight for no good reason" does not apply to someone who is paying attention to his/her diet and making an attempt to exercise. Nor would it apply to a situation where someone is spending a lot of after-work time ferrying his/her children to band practice, soccer practice, etc and having little time for exercise him/herself. However, if someone is choosing to consume mass quantities of potato chips and beer instead of measured quantities of real food, and/or choosing to sit on the sofa watching Wheel Of Fortune when he/she might be taking a low-impact waterobics class or just walking around the block -- THAT is "gaining weight for no good reason." Are we clear now?

How would feel if you were oinking at your wife, and then discovered years later that there was a physical cause for her weight gain?
I'd feel bad. But I'd feel worse if I never said anything and she wound up dying of a heart attack at 55.

Doing anything worthwhile in life carries the risk of a mistake.

It makes no sense to me that if your wife gained weight due to a medical problem, that you would be all kind and caring - but if there was no medical problem you would humiliate her so that she would lose weight. How would you KNOW at what point it would be okay to start the bullying? Would you make her go to a doctor, get the all clear then start the debasing?
You make it sound like bullying or humiliation would be the first thing I'd try. Did you miss the part where I wrote "Unless nothing else works, that is -- then bring on the bullying or humiliation"? Is it really unclear to you that I meant I would try other things first? Or are you just trolling?

If my wife were following some well-known weight loss plan and still gaining weight, and went to a doctor and got the "all clear" for things like thyroid problems, PCOS, etc, etc, my first conclusion would be that it's not the right weight loss plan for her, and she should maybe try another -- not that the only thing needed is a little "friendly" humiliation or bullying to turn that plan around. Bullying or humiliation can be useful tools in certain situations, but neither is a Sovereign Remedy.

[adkpam]

The point the protesters were making is that bullying and humiliation have no place in a loving relationship. Which I agree with. People TRY bullying and humiliation, and it does work.
In a non-loving relationship.
In a loving relationship, both parties want the best for each other. People can and do love each other despite problems of all sorts. But the solution to a problem, be it weight or something else, is for both parties to agree that something should be done and what that something should be. Lovingly, without threats or other unpleasantness.
After all, if you are really motivated out of love, love will guide your actions.

[Lisa N]

Did you miss the part where I wrote "Unless nothing else works, that is -- then bring on the bullying or humiliation"?

How noble of you! :lol: Did you miss the part where several people have stated clearly that bullying, shaming and humilation didn't work? Bullying and humiliation, even as a last resort, are more about the person doing the bullying than about the person being bullied. It makes you feel better, because you have convinced yourself that "it's in the other person's best interest", while it makes the recipient (supposedly someone that you love) miserable. I can tell you for a fact that those tactics didn't work on me and my mother used them for years. The only thing it did was cause me to resent her and put a wedge between us, in effect, nearly ruining our relationship.
Even if it does work and the victim loses weight, here's another angle that you may not have considered: they'll look damn good while they're walking out the door on your a**. :rolleyes:

[adkpam]

Hoo hah, Lisa N! Too right!

[Plagiomom]

You make it sound like bullying or humiliation would be the first thing I'd try. Did you miss the part where I wrote "Unless nothing else works, that is -- then bring on the bullying or humiliation"? Is it really unclear to you that I meant I would try other things first? Or are you just trolling?

Wow, so I bring up a very real complicated situation that took place over a course of years, instead of a hypothetical crystal clear situation, and wonder how you (or anyone else with your views, for that matter) would handle such a situation, and I must either be stupid or a troll? :rolleyes:

The reason I felt compelled to write was because you directed to a site where someone wrote a situation about their wife to that guy Dan. http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0325/savage.php You agreed with Dan - and gave no pause to consider (and didn't appear to know) that 99% of what that guy was complaining about (i.e., weight gain, lack of libido, decreased interest in one's appearance) could be explained by a possible hormonal imbalance or a hormonal disorder (which is why I asked you if you knew all the disorders that cause weight gain). Instead Dan wrote, and you agreed, it's okay for the husband to cheat, or better yet, chuck the wife to the curb, because obviously it was bait and switch.

Okay, I will acknowledge that there are a few woman (and men) out there who probably do pull bait and switch after marriage - but doesn't it seem irresponsible to assume that is always the case? And not even consider a possible medical cause? After all - if there's a medical cause, there is a good reason for everything that the wife is experiencing.

Now I admit, I have no clue who this Dan Savage guy is. Hopefully that site is pure satire in bad taste, and you were just trying to be funny - and I didn't see the humor (in which case I apologize for getting involved becaue obviously it's a very real life experience for me that involves no humor at all). But if Dan's advice was "real" on any level, you agreed to cheating, or chucking a women to the curb who very possibly could have a hormonal based disorder and doesn't know it! That doesn't really back up the idea of trying to work with your spouse in a kind, caring way, to discover what is going on. Does it? If that's humor, it's pretty twisted.

[Micha2]

When I reached puberty at 10 years old, I was teased by the boys in school. They called me 'tank'. The reason: I was physically fully developed as a woman while the other girls still had boyish figures. Looking at pictures of myself as a child, my legs were slightly big but I was not fat! But my parents wouldn't let me be either. They went on and on at me to lose weight. They'd say, Micha, your bottom is so big!

Now I am forty years old, have gone through serious depression and suffer from anxiety attacks. I have very low self esteem and have to attend psychotherapy sessions to make some sense of what has happened to me.

Now I finally am overweight for the first time in my life for a reason that I don't know yet. I have always been obsessed with eating very little to an extent that I have trouble eating enough now to get all the nutrients. I hate the way I look! Luckily I have a loving husband who likes my shape. If he started to criticise me about my weight, I would not be able to handle this.

I don't think I will ever by able to see myself with loving and accepting eyes because I have completely internalised my parents' bullying which up to now I have not been able to switch off.

This is what bullying however "lovingly it is done" (if this is possible) can do to someone who might be a bit more sensitive than others.

[Dean4Prez]

The point the protesters were making is that bullying and humiliation have no place in a loving relationship. Which I agree with. People TRY bullying and humiliation, and it does work. In a non-loving relationship.
For your consideration...
You're in the checkout aisle at the grocery store with your six-year-old. You just want to get out, get home, and start fixing dinner. Six-year-old sees the sweet, sweet candy displayed at eye level.
"Mommmm..."
You say, "No, we'll have dessert at home after dinner tonight."
She responds, "But I WANT IT NOW!!! WHY CAN'T I HAVE IT NOW!!!" (not your child, of course -- this is a hypothetical child. Bear with me, ok?)
You reply, "I Said NO!"
She says, "WHY NOT???"

Now, if you say, "Because I said 'NO', and I'm bigger than you" -- have you stopped loving your child?

In a loving relationship, both parties want the best for each other. People can and do love each other despite problems of all sorts. But the solution to a problem, be it weight or something else, is for both parties to agree that something should be done and what that something should be. Lovingly, without threats or other unpleasantness.
And what if one of the parties is not an adult, or at least not acting like one?

Personal example: For a while, I did telephone tech support for a large computer manufacturer, and began taking my work home with me -- I started paying less and less attention to my wife and stepdaughter. My wife tried to bring it to my attention in a logical, reasonable way. Finally, she threatened to leave me unless I shaped up. Was it unpleasant? Hell, yes. Would I rather she had "...Lovingly, without threats or other unpleasantness," simply packed her bags and taken her daughter to live elsewhere? Hell, no. I was acting like a spoiled child, and I'm grateful that she resorted to a threat when nothing else worked.

After all, if you are really motivated out of love, love will guide your actions.
And I would add, "...and you'll do what you have to for the well-being of the one you love."

[Dean4Prez]

How noble of you! :lol: Did you miss the part where several people have stated clearly that bullying, shaming and humilation didn't work?
No, I didn't miss that. I also didn't miss the part where mildwild said that humiliation did work in her case. Did you? That's interesting, isn't it? It would seem to indicate that some people are capable of responding to bullying, shaming, or humiliation in a useful, positive way, despite kyrasdad's insistence that b/s/h NEVER works.


Bullying and humiliation, even as a last resort, are more about the person doing the bullying than about the person being bullied.
I agree. But it can mean more than one thing. It can mean (A)that the person doing the bullying is a brute, an emotional abuser -- I suspect you would agree with this, yes? It can also mean (B)that the person doing the bullying has good intentions, but not a lot of internal resources when it comes to interpersonal relationships -- for example, the child of a Type (A) bully might bully or humiliate as a first choice because he/she didn't grow up seeing anything else. But it can also mean that (C)the person doing the bullying is committed to the well-being of the person being bullied, and is willing to do whatever it takes to make that happen. This is the category that you don't seem to believe exists. I could throw out examples like Werner Erhard, Frank Farrelly, any number of sports coaches, some military drill instructors, or indeed good parents, but why bother? I think your mind is already made up.

It makes you feel better, because you have convinced yourself that "it's in the other person's best interest", while it makes the recipient (supposedly someone that you love) miserable.
I can tell you for a fact that those tactics didn't work on me and my mother used them for years. The only thing it did was cause me to resent her and put a wedge between us, in effect, nearly ruining our relationship.
There's a difference between Type (C) bullies and the other two groups. Type (C)s are not insane, in the sense of that saying attributed to Albert Einstein: Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. Type (C)s have flexibility and choice in their behavior. (B)s and (A)s don't.

Even if it does work and the victim loses weight, here's another angle that you may not have considered: they'll look damn good while they're walking out the door on your a**. :rolleyes:
I'd still do it, even if I thought they would walk out. I'd rather know they were healthy away from me, than keep them by my side sick. If that makes me a latent abuser, someone who "doesn't understand unconditional love," or just a bad, bad person, so be it.

[Dean4Prez]

The reason I felt compelled to write was because you directed to a site where someone wrote a situation about their wife to that guy Dan. http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0325/savage.php You agreed with Dan - and gave no pause to consider (and didn't appear to know) that 99% of what that guy was complaining about (i.e., weight gain, lack of libido, decreased interest in one's appearance) could be explained by a possible hormonal imbalance or a hormonal disorder (which is why I asked you if you knew all the disorders that cause weight gain).
She may have been experiencing decreased libido, but that didn't keep her from accepting pleasure from her husband without reciprocating. I can believe that a hormonal disorder can make one a fat person, but I don't really think it can make one an inconsiderate person.

[potatofree]

She may have been experiencing decreased libido, but that didn't keep her from accepting pleasure from her husband without reciprocating. I can believe that a hormonal disorder can make one a fat person, but I don't really think it can make one an inconsiderate person.

It's called testosterone....

<rimshot> :lol:

Sorry, had to try to lighten things up a bit.....

[Lisa N]

I'd still do it, even if I thought they would walk out. I'd rather know they were healthy away from me, than keep them by my side sick. If that makes me a latent abuser, someone who "doesn't understand unconditional love," or just a bad, bad person, so be it.

Riiiiiiiggghhhht....and every guy who wants his wife/girlfriend to lose weight is solely being motivated out of concern for her health. :lol: :lol: Even if that concern was in there at all, it's likely about 9th or 10th down the list, if not farther.
Face it, on the site that started this whole discussion, what was Andy's motivation for wanting Candy to lose weight? He didn't like how she looked. No mention of concern over health issues. Just the fact that HIS visual pleasure was being diminished. So it goes back again to being willing to bully and humiliate to get something that they want.
Concerned about your wife's health? Ask her to go to the doctor and then enlist the aid of her doctor in convincing her that her health is at risk. Furthermore, while you may be concerned for her physical welbeing, being willing to bully and humiliate a person into doing something about it shows very little concern for their emotional wellbeing. They might be thin if it works (and so far we have one person that it worked on out of several who have stated that it did not, and even with the person that said it worked, the humiliation came from a total stranger, not a SO), but now you've got other issues to deal with in a spouse that has lost a great deal of trust in you because of your behavior. After all, if you're willing to bully and humiliate them on one issue that you find displeasing, what's next? How can they now trust that you won't fall back into that pattern the next time you find something about them that you don't like? You can say you won't, but actions speak louder than words.
I also hope you weren't serious about comparing a parent/child relationship to that of husband and wife. If you were, there are other issues going on that are way beyond the scope of this forum to address because the two are very, very different. I married my husband because I wanted a partner, not a scolding parent. Marriage is a partnership, the parent/child relationship, especially when they are very young, is more of a dictatorship which continues to move towards more of a democracy as they get older (and hopefully wiser), unless, of course, you are advocating for the "give them whatever they want, let them do whatever they want" method of parenting.
What would I do in your example above where the child engages in badgering her mother to get candy? Ever hear of discipline for inappropriate behavior? Badgering at my house gets two warnings to stop and then some time in their room to think about it or removal of some privilege (TV, video games, etc...) if they don't and it never gets them what they want because I don't believe in rewarding inappropriate behavior. Come to think of it, that's probably why bullying and humilation wouldn't get very far with me coming from a spouse...I don't believe in rewarding inappropriate behavior and I believe that behavior coming from a spouse is inappropriate on at least a couple of levels.

[Dean4Prez]

Riiiiiiiggghhhht....and every guy who wants his wife/girlfriend to lose weight is solely being motivated out of concern for her health. :lol: :lol: Even if that concern was in there at all, it's likely about 9th or 10th down the list, if not farther.
I'd respond to this, but if I were to express my honest opinion of the insult you've offered to "every guy", you'd probably ban me. While I'm really getting tired of this thread (I find the way you people assume that your limitations are the laws of nature very depressing), there are boards on this site that I'd still like to be able to post to. So go ahead, Forum Moderator, " :lol: " your a-- off. I am in a position to demand nothing.

I also hope you weren't serious about comparing a parent/child relationship to that of husband and wife. If you were, there are other issues going on that are way beyond the scope of this forum to address because the two are very, very different. I married my husband because I wanted a partner, not a scolding parent.
Look, I don't know how you got to your maximum weight, so I'm not even going to get into that with you, because for all I know you had some metabolic disorder that caused you to gain weight. What I do know is, when I gained weight up to my maximum, it wasn't because I had any kind of metabolic disorder, unless there's a metabolic disorder that causes one to stuff one's face with empty calories instead of real food and sit on one's a-- playing Unreal Tournament instead of exercising. In short, I gained weight by acting like a child with a bag of Halloween candy, eating what I wanted and playing video games with little thought to the consequences. I would rather my wife had acted like a parent to my child before I passed 200, instead of waiting until I decided for myself to grow up and take responsibility for my health (which happened when I hit 225). Some people would rather their partners continue to treat them like adults, even when they're not acting like adults. I say, if someone is acting like a child, it's all right to treat them like a child. YMMV and de gustibus non disputandem est, of course.

Marriage is a partnership, the parent/child relationship, especially when they are very young, is more of a dictatorship which continues to move towards more of a democracy as they get older (and hopefully wiser), unless, of course, you are advocating for the "give them whatever they want, let them do whatever they want" method of parenting.
How can I be an advocate of the "give them whatever they want, let them do whatever they want" method? I'm a male, which means I'm primarily concerned with my wants and needs, right? Me, me, me, as Agent Smith would say. What the little brats want is going to be even farther down my list of concerns than my concern for their wellbeing, which as we all know is about 9th or 10th, if not farther.

[gotbeer]

Originally Posted by Lisa N
Riiiiiiiggghhhht....and every guy who wants his wife/girlfriend to lose weight is solely being motivated out of concern for her health. Even if that concern was in there at all, it's likely about 9th or 10th down the list, if not farther.

Lovely stereotyping, Lisa. :nono:

Ka-BOOM!

But really, if all Andy wanted was his attractive wife back, what is wrong with that? What's wrong with not wanting to be a bait-and-switch victim? At least he still wanted his thin wife to be Candy - had he wanted, he could've dumped her and found a different, thinner one.

Oh, forgot.

Ka-BOOM!

Originally Posted by Kay/Tarheel
I would not have taken well to subtle hints or badgering.

Of course not. You would've exploded. And yes, I do enjoy my single state very much, thanks. No bait-and-switch victim me.

[adkpam]

There's nothing (usually) wrong with what anybody WANTS, it's how they get it that becomes a problem.
In a previous hypothetical, a poster asked if refusing candy to one's child meant not loving the child. Of course not. How one does it shows if you really love the kid or not.

Do we firmly and calmly refuse, despite any tantrums the child might throw?

OR

Scream back at the child that if he/she doesn't shut up right now there will be no dinner, tonight or anytime in the future?

In another hypothetical, someone said he was being neglectful, and the wife laid down the law before leaving. Was this the first time she had mentioned it? I bet not. And yes, one should inform others of their intentions before carrying them out.

As always, one can do the things one does while screaming and stomping, or one can do these things calmly, if sadly.
And some things work better than others.

[Lisa N]

I'd respond to this, but if I were to express my honest opinion of the insult you've offered to "every guy", you'd probably ban me.

Perhaps I should have phrased that differently and since it seems to have provoked such an explosive reaction, I'll apologize. I called Gotbeer for his stereotype of women, you called me on mine of men. Touche'. Let me rephrase that statement. It's been my personal experience and observation that most men I've ever encountered are not that interested in preventative care regarding their health. Statistical evidence in that regard is behind me. The number of men seeking preventative medical services (or any at all for that matter) vs. the number of women doing the same is about 3 women to every 1 man: http://www.cmwf.org/media/releases/sandman_menssurvey_release03142000.asp?link=11 Since those I have encountered pay very little attention to their health unless or until they actually get sick, and sometimes even then they delay seeking care, I can only surmise from that observation that they give even less thought to the future health of their wives or girlfriends unless or until they get sick. Obesity in and of itself is not an illness.

Ka-BOOM!

Ka-boom? LOL...that wasn't even close. Funny how it's perfectly okay to stereotype women, but heaven forbid someone make a blanket statement about the guys. :rolleyes:

But really, if all Andy wanted was his attractive wife back, what is wrong with that?

Nothing. But in a way, Andy was baiting and switching, too. On one hand, promising to "love, honor and cherish for richer or poorer, for better for worse, in sickness and in health, 'til death do you part" and then deciding that didn't apply when Candy gained weight. My main argument through this whole thread isn't that what Andy wanted (a thinner wife) was a bad thing in and of itself; only that the means he used to get what he wanted didn't justify the ends and that his apparent motivation was strictly a selfish one. That's my opinion and if others think that Andy's tactics along with threats, bullying, shaming and humilation are valid, I wish them lots of luck with them, although I feel sorry for the person on whom they will be inflicted. They wouldn't work on me because I would rather be alone than stay in a relationship where the person who promised to love me and who I trusted to keep that promise treated me that way no matter how good the motives behind it.

[TarHeel]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But really, if all Andy wanted was his attractive wife back, what is wrong with that?

Along with Lisa, I have no real problem with that. However. Candy is not going to be a beautiful young bride all of her life. Time and age will inevitably change her looks.

I'm not reading this into Andy's current stance, but wonder what he will want when she is 55? I'm still hoping this particular couple was having some fun with this whole "post it on the internet" idea, but I may be terribly naive.

And, in response to Gotbeer's comment to me "Of course not. You would've exploded.":

Would you consider my hiding out in another room in tears and devouring a bag of potato chips "exploding"? It would indeed be an explosion of emotions, but I've been there and done that.

[gotbeer]

Would you consider my hiding out in another room in tears and devouring a bag of potato chips "exploding"? It would indeed be an explosion of emotions, but I've been there and done that.

Absolutely. In many ways that would upset me more than if you'd started a screaming match. A woman crying rips me up.

At least go with the pork rinds instead.

[TarHeel]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But really, if all Andy wanted was his attractive wife back, what is wrong with that?

Along with Lisa, I have no real problem with that. However. Candy is not going to be a beautiful young bride all of her life. Time and age will inevitably change her looks.

I'm not reading this into Andy's current stance, but wonder what he will want when she is 55? I'm still hoping this particular couple was having some fun with this whole "post it on the internet" idea, but I may be terribly naive.

And, in response to Gotbeer's comment to me "Of course not. You would've exploded.":

Would you consider my hiding out in another room in tears and devouring a bag of potato chips "exploding"? It would indeed be an explosion of emotions, but I've been there and done that. The last time anyone I loved criticized me about my weight in an abusive manner I was 27 years old, weighed 115 pounds and was well within a "normal" weight range for my height. I was devastated and proceeded to "self-pity-eat" my way to 125 within a year. I still remember the words. "There you sit eating a sandwich with your double chin."

Yeah. That comment really helped me realize the self esteem I needed to control my weight.....

I even knew that the man saying it had some serious emotional problems with seeing anyone who had any extra fat on them because he watched his mother die of cancer when he was 11 years old. He didn't understand what was going on and only knew that she was becoming more and more bloated (bloating he later understood was caused by chemotherapy). But in his mind, ANY excess fat results in death.

He happens to be a wonderful man. We still respect and care about each other as friends, and value the 10 years we had together. My only point in bringing this up is that his behavior certainly did not help me at the time.

And of course, I am only one person. One woman. I do not presume to speak for all women. But, aside from some new medications I don't much want to pay for....I think the two things which have helped me continue to lose weight this year have been 1) the fact that I knew my husband loved me no matter what I weighed and would support whatever plan I followed, and 2) the kind and generally nonjudgmental folks on this forum.

Kay, who has no earthly idea how the first half of my post got posted before I finished it. Gremlins again.

[gotbeer]

Ah, the Andy & Candy case. Again, Ka-BOOM! Other than you, TarHeel, women who read the site decided universally that Andy was an abusive a$$, and that Candy ought to kick him to the curb. They found it unthinkable that Candy might have agreed to that idea. Andy became the vicious abuser and Candy the hapless victim, despite their stated claims that it was "no big deal".

If this case is real, then Candy might have been the one exceptional case: that of woman who DOESN'T explode when asked to lose weight by her husband. But not a single woman on this site is willing to allow her to be that case - though they denied it strenuously, from the beginning, they recognized intuitively that Candy was an impossible woman - she could not actually exist.

Perhaps that Andy and Candy site was a fake; perhaps not. Regardless, we have learned a bit about how wives and girlfriends feel about being asked to lose weight: they don't like it much at all - indeed, they perceive it as abuse.

[TarHeel]

But not a single woman on this site is willing to allow her to be that case - though they denied it strenuously, from the beginning, they recognized intuitively that Candy was an impossible woman - she could not actually exist.


Sure she could exist. She may even have a great sense of humour. She may even recognize that Andy loves her and wants the best for her. I think what most women who have posted in this thread are responding to are the truly nasty comments (which I almost immediately shied away from, so have not read all the way through) which some people made in replying to their online poll. (not in this thread, I refer to the original poll)

And we are just commenting here about how we, ourselves, would react to criticism about our weight. Our personal opinions, not universal truths. There have been a number of times over the months since I first registered on this forum that I have thought "Wow! The men on this forum, being considerably in the minority, have a really unique opportunity to glean an understanding of how many women think and feel." What a neat thing for them.

But then I stop and think, "How long would I last as a member of a newsgroup or forum with a majority of male members?" Do I really want to understand men? Good question.....I guess it would depend upon the focus of the forum.

I've been away from my own journal far too long dallying over here.

Kay

[potatofree]

I'm still waiting to hear what Speakerguy's wife has to say about things....

[Kristine]

>>"women who read the site decided universally that Andy was an abusive a$$..."

Uh... no, just the ones who felt strongly enough about it to bother posting.

>>"Regardless, we have learned a bit about how wives and girlfriends feel about being asked to lose weight: they don't like it much at all - indeed, they perceive it as abuse."

No, they (we) perceive deliberate humiliation and shaming as abuse.

Count me in as one of Tarheel's types: my S/O does almost all of the talking. Additionally, I've never displayed any kind of outburst during our conversations. I'm sorry if you believe that all women are like the crappy ones you've seem to encountered, but in relationships, people tend to get exactly what they think they're going to find.

You remind me of a guy I had to dump many moons ago. :D

[macdaddy]

ouch!

I was in a similar situation. My X and I were both heavy while we were dating. After five years of marriage, she lost the weight and I didn't. She started going to the bars with co-workers and soon fell into a different crowd of friends, as well as some old friends she had when she was thin. Pretty much stopped talking to me all together. she only broke the silence to drop hints about weight-loss and the more hints she dropped, the more I ate. I tried, I'm a classic you-yoer, again and again but eventually gave up. I even made it a goal to gain, just to spite her. But eventually I made another efffort to gain her favor. this was during the first year of the divorce. I was actually ten pounds less than I am now. So many times the thought, if I lost the weight I'd get her back. but I didn't and soon gained it all back.

This time I'm in it for me.

[macdaddy]

hehehehe, I got into a little diatribe there.

My point was nagging usually elicits opposition as well as resentment.

[Kristine]

Macdaddy, sorry about your troubles. :( That's an interesting perspective. That was sort of the opposite situation: pair starts out heavy, then one "bails."

I bet that if there wasn't so much discrimination and intolerance toward heavier folks, neither of these situations would be worth talking about. No one (Andy included) would care that Candy was going through normal female weight gain, and Macdaddy's wife wouldn't have become a different person when she lost weight - she probably would have been the "cheerful office socialite" all along. *shrug*

Just my thoughts on too much caffeine. http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/ernaehrung/food-smiley-010.gif

[Lisa N]

women who read the site decided universally that Andy was an abusive a$$, and that Candy ought to kick him to the curb. They found it unthinkable that Candy might have agreed to that idea.

Not exactly. For those that got to read the original site along with all the downright rude and abusive comments left by many of the posters there, Candy had intially told Andy that she felt he should love her the way she was and was perfectly comfortable with her current weight. Since the two of them couldn't agree on a solution between them, Andy convinced her to take a bet and let the public decide. Both of them were gambling that public opinion would be in their corner and that they would win the bet. Neither were displaying exactly a commendable level of maturity.
Now, it's possible that Andy couldn't have forseen the abusive and rude posts that would be left for Candy to read, but he could have quickly ended that whole charade when they began or posted a warning to keep it polite. Did he? Doesn't seem so, but it's unclear as to who shut down the site (Andy or his ISP).
Of course, now it appears that the whole thing was a farce, but it certainly sparked some interesting discussion regardless.

Ditto what Kristine said about being asked to lose weight by a husband or boyfriend. It's not the request to lose weight that I would object to or consider abusive, but the way in which it was presented and what I perceived the motivations behind it to be followed by the way I was treated in regards to the whole situation.

[korry1977]

Talk about a co-dependent personality (the gal)... IMHO, this guy is projecting his losses and insecurities on the poor girl...

so, when does the "honeymooning" period begin?

[gotbeer]

Neither were displaying exactly a commendable level of maturity.

They agreed to a compromise - an unusual one, but a compromise nevertheless. That sounds a lot more mature than the explosive negative comments that followed on BOTH sides of the aisle.


I'm sorry if you believe that all women are like the crappy ones you've seem to encountered, but in relationships, people tend to get exactly what they think they're going to find.

You remind me of a guy I had to dump many moons ago.

I don't think my expectations of women are low. I certainly don't regard the women I've encountered as "crappy". Judging a man by his earning capacity is just standard behavior for most women - I see nothing crappy about that. Earning capacity is important to providing for children, among other things. To my thinking this is at least a notch or two above the male habit of judging a woman by her looks - although, to be fair, an attractive woman has a somewhat better chance of having sex, and hence, having children and a spouse to care for them.

Nor is having an emotional outburst necessarily a bad thing. Although outbursts are unsettling when they occur, they can start a process of self-reflection that can lead to positive results if one can swallow one's pride enough to consider making improvements. Besides, a woman without passion is like an amusement park without a roller-coaster: bor-ing.

I believe that emotions drive all our choices regardless of how rational we try to be. It is easier to rationalize an emotional choice than to dredge up an emotion to drive a rational choice.

Do I get what I expect? Hardly.

Example 1: I'm not a jealous person - I've never understood the feeling. I certainly don't expect it in a relationship. Of the 6 women I've been in long-term relationships with, 4 were not jealous types, but the other 2 became insanely, violently jealous for no reason they could explain. I sure didn't sign up for that!

Example 2: Do I expect a woman I'm with to gain 100 lbs in a year? Nope, but it happened (and no pregnancy or other medical condition was involved).

I don't think my understanding of women or experiences with women translates into low expectations of women. I expect women to be smart, honest, sexual, and reasonable - silly me, I know, but I'm an idealist at heart. It has been my experiences that have been low sometimes, not my expectations. I still hope though reason tells me that my hope should grow thin.

But I also find, in the light of experience, that I'm growing more content being single. While most of my mid-40-ish male contemporaries are struggling with marriage and/or divorce, I'm seeing smart, beautiful women in their mid-20s. Does wonders for the insecurities, among other things.

[TarHeel]

Originally Posted by TarHeel

I'm sorry if you believe that all women are like the crappy ones you've seem to encountered, but in relationships, people tend to get exactly what they think they're going to find.

You remind me of a guy I had to dump many moons ago.

Just to keep the record straight, that t'warnt my post....

Kay

[gotbeer]

oops. Sorry. Fixed it.

[Lisa N]

Regarding the idea that it's better for one spouse to take on a parental role with the other in regards to losing weight (or any other problem for that matter), I personally feel that it's much wiser to encourage and/or wait for that person to take ownership of their own problem rather than trying to deal with it for them unless their actions are putting their health and safety or that of someone in the immediate vicinity in immediate danger (ie, becoming physically or verbally abusive, about to go out driving while intoxicated, etc...).
Those who take ownership of their own problems and issues are generally far more successful in solving them than those who are being forced to through external means and this applies to addictions as well as weight loss. My DH works with addicts and without exception, those that come to their program voluntarily are more successful than those who are forced into the program through the court system or a family member, even when failure means a return to jail or an ended marriage/relationship. Why? Those that admit themselves into the program voluntarily have taken ownership of the fact that they have a problem (addiction) that they must do something about and are internally motivated to overcome it. Those that don't have not taken ownership of the problem and are only doing something about it because they are being forced to (hey, it's better than sitting in jail!) or someone else thinks they have a problem. One of the primary objectives, as a matter of fact, is getting the addict to a point where they can say (and believe), "I am an addict and I must do something to overcome this addiction because if I don't, it will ruin my life or kill me.", not "I have to be here because the judge/my wife/my parents/my (fill in the blank) thinks I have a problem."

[potatofree]

I had a conversation with a neighbor today, who's in a similar, though not identical situation...

Her husband is morbidly obese, and comes from a family where every member is obese, most have multiple medical conditions related to it. He's made an attempt of two at Atkins, but always has a "reason" to quit. She (and she's thin, BTW) goes out of her way to cook healthy foods for him, encourage him, even inviting his whole family to their home every holiday so he can have control over the menu.

She expressed her frustration to me today, since she's tried everything she can think of. She flat-out told him she's scared he won't be alive to walk their baby daughter down the aisle someday.

He's agreed to look into a different diet plan, and wants to borrow my CAD book, since it sounds like a plan he can stick with.

What struck me was having this thread in the back of my mind. Never ONCE did she resort to humiliation, or consider leaving if he didn't lose weight. He went from "I can't" to "I'll try" just because she shared her fears with him, and he doesn't want her to be afraid, nor to leave the kids fatherless.

That's not saying he'll succeed, but to me, it was a great example of how it "should" be.

[gymeejet]

Those who take ownership of their own problems and issues are generally far more successful in solving them than those who are being forced to through external means and this applies to addictions as well as weight loss.

this is correct psychology 101, although it took me a long time to accept it - LOL. a person is not gonna change, until he wants to change. this desire, as previously mentioned, must come from within.

the very best psychologist ever, was a man named Aesop - boy did he ever understand people. the fable that represents this situation happens to be my favorite - "mr. sun and mr. wind". if you have not read it before, it makes for good reading.

[Sango]

Wow, this thread is a fun read.
/sarcasm

I'm appalled at the opinions some have expressed toward women in blanket generalizations. I suppose they have their reasons for it from previous experience, but unless you've been with all of the women on the planet, you can't honestly make those kind of generalized statements.

Likewise I don't think humiliation is ever called for in a marriage. If your spouse's fat is something you can't live with, and you've discussed the issue like reasonable people, then leave. If you use tactics like that, the marriage is already over, in soul if not legality.

This is somewhat of a personal issue for me, not because I've been in the situation, but because I've been constantly trying to lose about 20 lbs my entire adult life. I couldn't lose an ounce, but it wasn't for lack of effort and heartache. I would think on an enlightened LC forum like this, people would realize that sometimes it's now how hard you're working, it's *what* you're doing. My low-cal, low-fat diet was getting me nowhere. Finding out about low-carb dieting was like a light bulb going on over my head. I'm finally making progress. Unfortunately, the word isn't out yet, and the LC thing isn't mainstream (yet). Some people are quite literally stuck in their fat.

I think we'd all like to know that our spouse is in it for the long haul, fat or not. Because no one stays like they were on their wedding day for long. Waistlines grow, hairlines receede, wrinkles and stretch marks form. Hopefully it's the person beneath that matters. Is that too much to ask?

[gotbeer]

I'm appalled at the opinions some have expressed toward women in blanket generalizations. I suppose they have their reasons for it from previous experience, but unless you've been with all of the women on the planet, you can't honestly make those kind of generalized statements.


Likewise, I'm appalled that no one has found a counterexample: a wife who doesn't freak when her husband brings up the subject of her weight. Just one documented case would prove me wrong, absolutely. You'd think in a world of billions of wives at least one could react "reasonably".

Candy? Most believe her case was a hoax.

Wanda Barzee? Maybe; I mean, DAMN, that woman agreed to some outrageous things, but we have no evidence her weight ever came up as a subject of discussion.

Terri Schiavo? The whole state gov't exploded for her.

I think we'd all like to know that our spouse is in it for the long haul, fat or not. Because no one stays like they were on their wedding day for long. Waistlines grow, hairlines receede, wrinkles and stretch marks form. Hopefully it's the person beneath that matters. Is that too much to ask?

What relationships ever start without a physical chemistry of some sort? Why should they persist without it? Most don't. Acknowledging that reality would go a long way towards stabilizing marriages - one worthy goal I think we can agree on.

[Kristine]

I don't think anyone is denying that marriages start out with physical chemistry - it's the expectation of maintaining the unrealistic that was originally in debate here. That gal on the website is at a pretty normal "pushing-30" weight, up from "skinny teenager". What kind of Michael-Jacksonian measures is the average wife supposed to undertake to keep looking like she did when she was 20? I hate to repeat myself, but female weight gain is normal and pretty much equivalent to male pattern baldness and impotency. It's natural aging - sorry if it doesn't fit in to what Hollywood and Madison Avenue dictates...

On the humiliation issue, Sango said it perfectly: there's no excuse for humiliation. If you've tried everything and you can not live with his/her fatness, it's time to walk away.

[Sango]

A "documented case"? Haha. Of interperonal relationships? I'll have to ask some of my married friends to tape-record something. Right.

No one is arguing that physical chemistry isn't absolutely necessary in the beginning. But it's inversely proportional to the length of the relationship, I think...how much "physical" chemisty is there between two shrunken octagenarians? As time progress I would think the person inside is what becomes beautiful. It's not realistic to expect anyone to forever hold onto what they had in their 20's. The most romantic couple I've ever seen was on TV one day, in their eighties, still sitting together and holding hands like teenagers. He said that she was "more beautiful today than the day I met her." No one else might agree with him, but when he looks at her, every wrinkle and age spot is a reminder of the happy years they've spent together, a visible and concrete marker of a half-century of marriage.

As for women and their knee-jerk reactions to comments on their weight from the men they love...can't blame most of them, as they're taught all of their lives that if they aren't beautiful, they're nothing. Which you, gotbeer, seem to verify. "You might be the most wonderful, loving, caring and supportive wife [and the mother of my children] but you're fat and they physical chemistry is gone, so I'm out of here if you don't lose the weight, [insert humiliating insult here]."

Is it crazy that we'd like to hope there are more reasons to stay?

[Lisa N]

Likewise, I'm appalled that no one has found a counterexample: a wife who doesn't freak when her husband brings up the subject of her weight.

I suppose that depends on what you define "freak" as. I get the impression that any dissent at all, no matter how it is expressed, with the husband's express opinion you consider "freaking" on the part of the wife. No matter how good the relationship between two people, there are going to be things that you don't agree on. How you handle those disagreements is a good indication of how solid your relationship is.


What relationships ever start without a physical chemistry of some sort?

Frienship. My husband and I started out as friends in the 8th grade and didn't become lovers until 9 years later. Now, after 18 years of marriage, we're both and will continue to be both long after the "physical chemistry" is gone. Marriages that make it through the long haul and the tough times are based on far more than physical attraction and physical chemistry.
Do many marriages start because of physical chemistry? Yup. Do many of them fail because that's all the marriage was based on? Yup.

[gotbeer]

By "freaking", I mean, acting out in a panic, or fear, or rage, whether or not they believe that they are being abused. A calm, reasoned dissent, with no lingering implications, is what I believe does not exist.

Here's an interesting article on what constitutes abuse, and how different people perceive it.

BECAUSE I SAID SO!!

A new study says that yelling at your children -- even if you're trying to protect them -- is "psychological aggression."

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Christopher Healy Dec. 11, 2003 |

link to article (http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2003/12/11/study/index.html)

The day my daughter was born changed me profoundly. The first time -- when, in her toddlerhood, I saw her squeezing Legos through a heating vent into our furnace -- I screamed "Stop that!" after more gently spoken pleas went ignored was also a pivotal day in my life. According to renowned sociologist Murray Straus, that was the day I became an "abusive" parent.

Needless to say, it came as quite a shock to find out there were bona fide family experts who would consider my behavior toward my daughter, the most important person in my life, cruel. Yet according to Straus, yelling at my daughter even that one time was "abuse the moment it [was] done."

A few weeks ago, the respected Journal of Marriage and Family published a study by Straus and his colleague Carolyn Field that reports that "psychological aggression" toward children is "so prevalent as to be just about universal." This is the result of a telephone survey of 991 parents, 98 percent of whom admitted to using "psychological aggression" against their child by age 7. While the researchers' definition of "psychological aggression" includes such inarguably objectionable acts as calling your children obscene names and threatening to throw them out of the house, it also includes actions that most parents regard as a normal part of raising kids -- shouting and yelling. In fact, the 2 percent who came off completely clean in the study probably either lied or have nannies who do the hollering for them.

The tone of Straus and Field's report is unrelenting. They do not distinguish between different forms of communication -- harmful invective like "I wish you had never been born!" as opposed to "Do your homework now!" pleas. In their view, it also doesn't seem to make a difference if parents scream at their children constantly, or just get loud once in a while. They say, "We believe it should be never." While admitting that even the best of parents can sometimes lose their temper and get a bit snappish, they are sure to add, "This provides an explanation for some psychological aggression, not a justification."

Upon first reading the study, I was incredulous; could the authors truly believe that occasional yelling would damage my child? I contacted Straus in Belgium, where he is currently teaching, in hopes of getting some clarification. "Any yelling or screaming is bad parenting," he said, quite clearly. "It is not, in my opinion, a humane mode of family relationship." So now not only was I "psychologically aggressive" toward my daughter, but I was also "inhumane" -- a term I'd always associated with POW camps and cockfights.

I kept searching for some kind of caveat to Straus' all-out ban on shouting but never found one. Not even motivation seems to matter. Couldn't you get a free pass for yelling at your children out of frustration or concern as opposed to assaulting them with a malicious verbal attack that is intended to berate and belittle? "Because it is the lesser of two evils," Straus told me, "does not make it not an evil."

And yet, resolute as he is in his thesis, he admits there is still research to be done. "There is no empirical evidence," he told me, "to support either my hypothesis or the view of critics." But we're still supposed to feel guilty about it.

In the study itself, the researchers admit their reluctance to label psychological aggression as "abuse" -- mostly because there are legal definitions of abuse that some psychological aggression would not fit into -- but Straus didn't shy away from that word in the accompanying press release or in his interview with me. He also told me he "would not see any downsides" to future laws against psychological aggression. Such forms of discipline are tolerated right now, he says, because they are society's norm (and certainly anything done by 98 percent of the population qualifies as a "norm"). "The expansion of humanitarian rights that has occurred in respect to other areas of childhood, such as child labor," he said, "suggests that it is possible that the norms will change."

And there you have it. Shouting "How many times have we told you to stop eating Mommy's lipstick?" is on a par with manacling your kindergartner to a rusty antique Singer in the basement of a factory and forcing her to stitch up knockoff D&G handbags for 18 hours a day.

While Straus and Field certainly didn't create the blame-the-parents-first atmosphere that has begun to blanket our country, with this study they've supplied a diaper's load of fodder for all those people suffering from concerned-neighbor syndrome, the ones who seem to believe that the nation's children should be raised by an army of omnipotent Stepford parents, and who are ready to call in a SWAT team if they spot a mother who hasn't wiped her son's runny nose quickly enough.

There's not much a parent can do these days that doesn't bring on an onslaught of societal guilt. Letting kids cry is neglectful, letting them glimpse even a nanosecond of television is irresponsible, and putting them in day care is so awful the Brothers Grimm wouldn't use it as a plot device. You would think there's enough genuine abuse in the world that we could cut some slack to a father who accidentally lets his vocabulary lapse into PG-13 as the stroller rolls over his toe, but apparently not.

I can't count the number of times my wife was reprimanded, while our daughter was still in utero, for not exhibiting the mental tranquility of a Zen monk. "Stress can do horrible things to your baby," was the constant refrain -- one backed up by hordes of obstetricians across the nation. That, of course, only led her to become stressed out about becoming stressed out. When caring, responsible, attentive mothers can be made to feel like lousy parents before their children are even born, things have gone too far. It's as if the best caregivers would have to be unfeeling, unemotional automatons. Mr. Spock has replaced Dr. Spock, and an impossible standard is being set.

Raising a child is pressure enough without having to suddenly worry about your decibel level as your 2-year-old decides that the keyboard of your iMac might like a drink of milk. You don't need to curse at her, or berate her, or threaten to kick her out of the house (which would be a pretty nasty thing to do to a toddler). You may even admire her compassion with regard to your computer's thirst. But you also might shout at her -- intentionally or not -- to get her attention, to make sure she stops, and to underscore the message that mixing dairy products and expensive technology is a no-no. And even if the tone of your voice temporarily upsets her, chances are she'll get over it rather quickly. You don't need to start worrying that you've just crossed the line into Joan Crawford territory. And if anyone tells you that you should, well, I think that's psychological aggression.

Incidentally, after I yelled at my daughter that first time, she flashed me a big smile and giggled as if I had just put on an Elmo costume and done a headstand. Then she handed me back the Legos.

salon.com

- - - - - - - - - - - -

About the writer
Christopher Healy's writing has appeared in the Washington Post, Teen People, and "Out of the Ordinary: Essays on Growing Up With Gay, Lesbian and Transgender Parents."

[adkpam]

A calm, reasoned dissent, with no lingering implications, is what I believe does not exist.
[/I]

From previous conversations, gotbeer, I know you do not believe it exists, and you don't believe anyone else who claim (as I do) that I have had calm, reasoned discussions, with no lingering ill feelings.

I can only conclude that:

You are basing this on your personal barometer, which is so exquisitely sensitive you make The Princess & The Pea look like a WWF wrestler...

AND/OR

Your personal relationships really suck.

Sorry to hear that there is no one in your life you can have a calm, reasoned, dissent with.
Heck, my Dad is a concrete Republican, and I am certainly not. We discuss political things quite a bit, and while we are convinced the other is missing brain cells on certain issues, it does not affect the rest of our good relationship one bit.

[gotbeer]

I should clarify: only on the point of her weight have I experienced this universal lack of a calm, reasoned dissent.

Other touchy subjects (her lack and/or excess of sexual skills, the size of her shoe collection, her taste in movies, his or her cheating, etc.) do not seem to reflect freakish responses universally. Unlike weight, counterexamples to these are easy to find and verify.

And my relationships are fine, thanks, now that I know to avoid discussing my girlfrends' weight in anything except the most glowing, positive way.

Her: "Honey, does this make me look fat?"

Me: "NOTHING could make you look fat!"

[Lisa N]

You know, I can't honestly say I've never yelled at either of my kids, but it's generally been in the context of their being in immediate danger (like about to walk into the street or get burned on the stove).
Our general rule in our house is that there had better not be any yelling unless the house/a person is on fire or terribly injured or there is a tornado coming.

As for discussing weight loss in a calm, reasoned manner. Sure, it's possible. But at the same sime you have to admit that personal criticism (and telling your SO that you believe that they need to lose weight is a personal criticism no matter how nicely you phrase it) is in and of itself an emotional topic and expecting complete emotional detachment from such a topic is unreasonable unless, of course, you happen to have Vulcan ancestry. :rolleyes: Disagreement does not have to be done at high decibel levels. I can think of two times where my DH and I have actually raised our voices to each other. Once when the oven was on fire and once when I was about to deliver a baby without pain medication or an epidural. As for lingering implications, it's a rare person indeed (female OR male) who can have their feelings hurt and just forget about it. Unless, of course, you didn't have any feelings to hurt in the first place. One mark of maturity is to be able to forgive and move on even IF your feelings have been hurt. Again, a rare attribute in today's society I'm afraid.

I find myself wondering how many men could discuss the topic of their spouse wanting them to undergo penile enlargement surgery with the same degree of emotional detachment and calmness that we women are expected to discuss something equally personal (and often just as difficult to do something about) as our body size/shape.

Another good question is: Is it even realistic to expect/demand that your SO lose weight considering that 95% of such attempts fail. Granted many of us here have finally (after decades of trying other methods in some cases) found something that is working for us, but we are still very much a minority. How many women are trying to lose weight using the traditional methods of low fat/high carb/eat less/excercise more only to find themselves gaining still more weight despite their best efforts? How frustrating and humiliating it must be for those women who are honestly trying and failing to be berated by those that should love them for that failure with the message that if they only tried harder or "if you really loved me", they'd be successful.

[adkpam]

Well, gotbeer, I'm glad to hear it. Sorry if I've been a bit tough on you. Nor are women to the only ones with touchy subjects IMHO.

I like my husband's approach: Once, while looking at our wedding photographs, but before embarking on this WOE, I mentioned, "I think I've lost weight since the wedding."
He said, "I'm taking the fifth."
I laughed and said, "I guess you're right. There is no good answer to that remark."
He said, "Either I agree, in which case you were fat at the wedding. Or I disagree, in which case you are still fat, to your way of thinking, so I'm taking the Fifth."

[gotbeer]

I find myself wondering how many men could discuss the topic of their spouse wanting them to undergo penile enlargement surgery with the same degree of emotional detachment and calmness that we women are expected to discuss something equally personal (and often just as difficult to do something about) as our body size/shape.

Indeed, a male friend of mine, "Don" I'll call him, will be having urethral reconstructive surgery next month (a childhood injury has caused extensive scarring). An earlier surgery cost him both length and girth, prompting his wife to complain to him. He handled it quite well then, and now, facing even more erosion, he's speaking with her again quite calmly and rationally.

Oh, and you guessed it. 4 months ago he told her she had a choice: lose weight, or go back to work. Kaboom! She's now claiming a mysterious back injury prevents her from doing either.

They've been married about 24 years: 6 kids, 1 grandkid.

He said, "I'm taking the fifth."
That's one wise man.

(For those outside the US: "taking the fifth" is a legal phrase that means "to invoke one's right not to testify against oneself", a right guaranteed by the 5th amendment to the US Constitution. In everyday speech it means: "I see no good answer, so I'm shutting up rather than trying to wriggle my way out of this".)

[Lisa N]

I'm glad your friend took it so calmly. It didn't work out that well for someone I know who made a similar request/complaint to her husband. He screamed at her for 15 minutes, hit her and then left her. If that's not a "kaboom", I don't know what is. Both are examples of reactions at the extreme ends of the spectrum (total calm vs. total rage) and I suspect that the reaction that would be more representative of males in general would likely be somewhere in the middle as are the reactions of most women.
As I said before, it's a rare person who can handle criticism of something very personal like the length of one's penis or the amount of body fat you have without at least some degree of emotion and/or hurt feelings. It baffles me a bit how you could reasonably expect otherwise. Keep in mind also that when someone is relating a story to you intended to elicit sympathy, they rarely, if ever, tell it in a manner that puts them in a bad light. Someone I know once said, "There's three sides to every story; your side, their side and the truth". ;) It's certainly no well-kept secret that your body size is a somewhat sensitive topic and this applies to men as well as women. Perhaps the difference is that women in general are more vocal in expressing their reactions to such criticism than men are.

I like my husband's approach: Once, while looking at our wedding photographs, but before embarking on this WOE, I mentioned, "I think I've lost weight since the wedding."
He said, "I'm taking the fifth."

LOL. Mine just makes the sounds and motions of a rifle being cocked (implication being that's a loaded question) and then we both laugh. :lol: Even though he knows that I wouldn't ask the question without being prepared to hear an honest answer even if I didn't like it.

[Sinbad]

My ex wife told me before our wedding that she felt like she was marrying the michelin man.
She also told me that I physically repelled her.
I still married her. She still married me. I guess that says a lot about BOTH of our states of mind ;)

[Iowagirl]

Wow. I tried to read this whole thread, really I did. Started skipping around by page 6.

One thing that struck me was the point made earlier that it isn't always what you say but how you say it. This seems to apply more to women than men for reasons it would give me a brain cramp to come up with. Having a friend or loved one tell ME they were concerned that I'd gained so much weight would have went a lot further than to hear someone tell me I was repulsive/fat/gross/most oft heard put down. A confrontation is one thing, abuse is another.

[Lisa N]

Whether people want to admit to this or believe it or not is up to them, but...when you are in a discussion with someone, particularly if that discussion involves a sensitive topic, what we hear and how we interpret it is based on the fact that it first passes through something similar to a filter in our brains; a "decoder", if you will. That filter/decoder (for lack of a better word) is composed of past experiences with that topic or situation as well as our own personal thoughts and feelings attached to that particular topic or situation. It does actually influence not only what you hear, but how you interpret what is being said to you (motives, implied meaning, etc...). When communicating with someone else, especially on a sensitive issue such as body image and weight gain/loss, it's important to remember that often what you said isn't nearly as important as what the other person "heard" and keep that in mind when the reaction you get isn't in line with what you actually said. In such a situation, ask them to repeat back to you what they heard. If you can manage to do this, I'd be willing to bet that what is repeated back to you isn't exactly what you said OR how you meant it if the reaction is a negative one. Doing this also gives a chance to clarify and correct the other person's interpretation.
On the other hand, if you find yourself getting upset by something that another person is saying to you, it might also help to step back and ask yourself if you are interpreting what they said correctly and first ask for clarification before blowing an O-ring on them.
"I" messages are also less likely to elicit hostility than "you" messages. For example: "I think that your health is in danger or will be soon if some changes aren't made" vs. "You're eating yourself into an early grave if you don't stop stuffing yourself and lose some weight". See the difference? One is an expression of concern (and how can you reasonably get angry with someone for expressing concern about your health?), the other would most likely be interpreted as a personal attack requiring defense...the infamous "kaboom".
Often it's not what you say, guys and gals, it's how you say it that matters.

[TarHeel]

Well, I promised myself I wouldn't step back into this fray......but some interesting ideas have come up quite aside from Andy and Candy. So I return to comment upon the idea that couples never get together for reasons other than physical attractiveness/sexual desire.

Hello? Love can evolve from a meeting of the minds, as well as meeting of the libidos. Years ago, someone asked what first attracted me to my present husband and my immediate, unthinking, response was "He's happy being who he is, and he makes me laugh."

And I am not by any means an asexual person. Although I may well have worn out that side of myself in my younger years. The sixties were a weird and crazy time.

But for longevity in a relationship? Go for the fun and companionship, rather than the lust. I've done both, been married twice. Second time around, I had grown up.

Kay

[gotbeer]

So I return to comment upon the idea that couples never get together for reasons other than physical attractiveness/sexual desire.

No, that's merely the normative way. I concede exceptions are possible - Anna Nicole Smith, for example, married for money.

I'm glad your friend took it so calmly. It didn't work out that well for someone I know who made a similar request/complaint to her husband. He screamed at her for 15 minutes, hit her and then left her. If that's not a "kaboom", I don't know what is. Both are examples of reactions at the extreme ends of the spectrum (total calm vs. total rage) and I suspect that the reaction that would be more representative of males in general would likely be somewhere in the middle as are the reactions of most women.

I believe the reactions are more complex (exist in more dimensions) than a "calm to rage" scale can measure.

For example, male human abusers adopt one of two main strategies - call them "ogres" and "cobras".

"Ogres" are loud, overtly physically violent but not terribly clever. As their rage builds, their hearts race, and they lose their calm and become fidgety. Ogres often strike their wives but rarely kill them. (For example, the abusive husband of Don Corleone's daughter in "The Godfather" or the hotheaded "Sonny" Corleone whom he betrayed.)

Contrast that with "cobras", who have a cold violence that is less overt but yet more chilling than the overt physicality of the ogre. As their rage builds, cobras become quieter, not louder. Their heart and pulse slows down; they become focused, still, calm and relaxed. As their anger crests their words drop to a whisper. Cobra's rarely strike their wives, but are much more likely to eventually murder them. (Think of the savage calmness of Michael Corleone, or of Hannibal Lector, or of the abuser [played by Patrick Bergin] in the movie "Sleeping With the Enemy".)

In one study, after a couple years of abuse, most Ogre-marriages had ended (over 60%), but NO Cobra marriages had ended. The explanation proposed in the study was that the wives of the Cobras were too terrified to attempt to escape. About 20% of abusers can be classified as Cobras; 80% are Ogres.

In light of this, it should be clear why a "total calm to total rage" scale can be inadequate to capture all the nuances of a reaction to a loaded emotional question.

As I said before, it's a rare person who can handle criticism of something very personal like the length of one's penis or the amount of body fat you have without at least some degree of emotion and/or hurt feelings. It baffles me a bit how you could reasonably expect otherwise. Keep in mind also that when someone is relating a story to you intended to illicit sympathy, they rarely, if ever, tell it in a manner that puts them in a bad light.

Um, he not only admitted that his penis had shrunk, but also that his wife complained, and that yet another shrunkage operation was coming. I'd say any one of those would tend to put him in a poor light - one can't get much more exposed than that. And, he told the story before both me and a woman friend we work with. If he had any serious degree of embarrassment or anger he never would have opened up like that - after all, we are buddies, not group therapy members.

Of course I expect weight to be an issue, especially with women. What I find exceptional is the degree of uncontrolled reaction when it involves a husband raising the subject with his wife. I've never even heard of a "Cobra female" in this situation - angry yet calm. The reaction seem to be 100% "Ogre female".

For Medicine, a Growing Problem
Doctors, Hospitals, ERs Struggle to Handle Wave of Obese Patients

By Ranit Mishori
Special to The Washington Post
Tuesday, September 23, 2003; Page HE01

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A49276-2003Sep22&notFound=true

On a chilly October day a few years ago, a 44-year-old woman lay in the internal medicine ward at Georgetown University Hospital. Pockets of infection were breaking through the skin on her abdomen as she received an intravenous drip of powerful antibiotics for her chronic non-healing wounds.

I was a third-year medical student, and she was now my patient.

After reviewing her medical history, I went to order a magnetic resonance image (MRI) to give me more information. There was only one problem. She was what we call "morbidly obese," weighing more than 350 pounds. The hospital's MRI machine was state-of-the-art, but my patient was too big to fit inside.

I explained the situation to my superiors and asked for advice. Their answer startled me: Call the National Zoo and schedule a session with the zoo's MRI.

Some of my fellow students snickered. I felt protective -- embarrassed, actually, for my patient. I wasn't sure I should take this instruction seriously. And if so, how was I supposed to tell my patient she might have to wait in line behind an elephant or a panda for her turn at the MRI?

No room for the obese -- to a lot of heavy Americans, that seems to be a slogan for the entire American health care system. And this is no minor issue: According to the National Institutes of Health, nearly two-thirds of the population is overweight or obese.

About 9 million Americans are "extremely obese," with a body mass index, or BMI, over 40; they have a substantially increased risk for illness and premature death.

These are people who should be going to the doctor more often than others, but in many cases they are not. Studies suggest this is because they believe the health system doesn't want to deal with them, or is out to humiliate them.

Here is what they experience: gowns that are too small; waiting room chairs they cannot squeeze into; scales placed in public view; exam tables that tip over; procedures (such as pelvic exams) that turn embarrassing when extra staff is required to lift the patient's middle.

And always there is The Lecture: being told, repeatedly, that "all you need to do is lose weight, and only then can we get a handle on your other health issues."

Hally Mahler, a public health expert specializing in HIV and AIDS, remembers getting The Lecture for the first time when she was 8. "He would say to me, 'You're getting too fat, you have to lose weight, it's now or never.' It was embarrassing. It became embarrassing going to the doctor."

Today Mahler is 35 and still big. But that childhood memory lingers. "As a child it was terrible, I resisted it, I did not want to go to the doctor, ever," she says.

Even as an adult, she has found medical personnel not only unsympathetic, but sometimes manifestly hostile. During one recent visit to the doctor's office, she recalls, "I walked in, and the nurse looked me up and down, saying, 'You're too heavy for this table. How much do you weigh?' And she looked me up and down again, in a really nasty way, and she just stormed off."

'Repulsive' Patients

If overweight patients like Mahler sometimes suspect that practitioners dislike them because of their condition, perhaps they are not being paranoid. Rebecca Puhl and Kelly D. Brownell of Yale University reviewed the literature about doctors' attitudes toward obese patients and published their findings in the journal Obesity Research in 2001. They discovered a whole collection of studies that suggest doctors and nurses do harbor negative feelings about obese patients.

For example, in one nationwide study of 400 physicians that appeared in the Journal of Family Practice in the 1980s, one-third included the obese among patients who cause them feelings of "discomfort, reluctance or dislike." (Other groups provoking such feelings included drug addicts and alcoholics.)

Studies on nurses' attitudes found similar results. In one, a study of Canadian nurses that appeared in the journal Perceptual and Motor Skills in 1989, nearly a third of those queried said they prefer not to care for the obese at all -- 24 percent labeled the obese "repulsive."

Other studies suggest that doctors see obese people as lacking in self-control, or as just plain lazy.

Uri Barzel, an endocrinology and metabolism expert at Montefiore Medical Center and the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York, admits that the overweight patients he sees in his practice frustrate him.

"Because the patient does not take charge of himself," he says, "they do not let me practice the best medicine. And the best medicine is [for these patients] to have a weight which is appropriate for their height."

"What I face as a physician when I see a patient like that is a mixture of feelings. I feel pity for the patient, because I know this patient is not going to end well. I know the person will need to take medications for diabetes, hypertension, for cholesterol, and will probably need to have knee replacement, hip replacement, because their joints cannot withstand the weight."

This is frustrating, says Barzel, "because we as a society and we as medical professionals are unable to bring about any reduction in weight."

After years of handing out diet sheets and dispensing advice to patients who, in his view, were not making enough of an effort to reduce their weight, Barzel simply says, "I'm not trying anymore."

In listening to doctors describe treating obese patients, I have heard a litany of tales that explain physicians' frustrations as well as patients' feelings of humiliation:

• The man who came to the hospital with shortness of breath. Doctors suspected he had a pulmonary embolism. At 402 pounds, he was two pounds over the weight limit for the CAT scan machine, so they pumped him full of a diuretic, hoping to shrink him down to treatable size -- but it didn't work. He left the hospital against medical advice and without a diagnosis.

• The patient who was taken down to the loading dock to be weighed like a piece of freight before being admitted to the hospital.

• The patient who was so heavy that the ER staff had to call the fire department to lift him onto a stretcher with hoisting equipment.

• The patient who died in bed. Five nurses tried to pick up the body and failed. Finally, they left the corpse, covered with a sheet, until more help was found.

The Impact of Obesity

So it is something of a standoff: Patients say doctors are hostile, and doctors say the patients are not doing enough to help themselves. In the meantime, the nation keeps gaining weight and overweight people keep getting sicker.

The list of conditions associated with excessive weight is long: diabetes, hypertension, heart disease, arthritis, sleep apnea and cancers of the breast, uterus, kidney, gallbladder, colon and rectum. Obesity is also associated with high blood cholesterol, complications of pregnancy, surgical complications and dementia.

It's evident that seriously overweight people should be seeking medical treatment. And yet many are shying away from the system.

"We are not going after preventive care," says Lynn McAfee, who, at 425 pounds, has experience as both a patient and a patient advocate for the Council on Size & Weight Discrimination, a nonprofit based in Mount Marion, N.Y. "We're not getting ourselves diagnosed with a lot of conditions that could be fixed."

"It is killing us," she adds.

Research demonstrates that the overweight are under-served. Puhl and Brownell cite a 1993 study in Women's Health that showed that the heavier a woman is, the less likely she is to undergo a pelvic examination. Another, a 1998 study in the Archives of Family Medicine, concluded that higher BMI measurements were associated with fewer preventive procedures like Pap smears and breast examinations. Yet another, published in 1994 in the Archives of Family Medicine, demonstrated that the higher a woman's BMI, the more likely she is to delay or cancel a visit to the doctor.

It is not a matter of the system refusing to treat the obese. It is the obese choosing not to use the system, because they feel put down by it, constantly reminded that they should do what so many of them seem unable to do: lose weight.

"I am just not sure it is the best use of a doctor's time to lecture somebody who's nearly in tears, somebody who could barely get themselves to the doctor for treatment and will probably not come back when they should," says McAfee. "Yelling at us louder is really not that effective. We heard you the first time."

Something needs to change, and McAfee, Mahler and others argue that it is the system.

'I Know That I Am Overweight'

A recent article in the Archives of Family Medicine, "The Sensitive Treatment of the Obese Patient," is one of the first to offer recommendations to doctors about the medical interaction itself. The article discusses how to improve the office space -- armless seats, large speculums for gynecologic exams, a scale with a wide base located in a private area. The article also advises that practitioners display the right attitude: "avoid any display of frustration or distaste when doing a difficult examination."

Some practices and hospitals are making efforts to accommodate large patients. The emergency room at the Montefiore Medical Center in New York just purchased some double-size stretchers, extra-large wheelchairs and oversize gowns.

While McAfee applauds such efforts, she would make one further change, simple but radical: Ditch the scale.

"Fear of the scale," as she puts it, is a huge barrier to care. "You internalize that fear so much. And even if the doctor says nothing about your weight, sometimes just getting weighed in that setting is so traumatic that people avoid doctor visits."

Hally Mahler simply refuses to be weighed. "The first thing that I did to empower myself as an adult, when I went looking for my first doctor . . . was to tell them that they couldn't weigh me. I know that I am overweight, we can see that. But it is my business."

And how did the nurses react? "Most were so taken aback that they'd say, 'Oh, okay,' " Mahler says. But not always. "Some have tried hard to convince me to get on the scale. Some have said. 'You can't do that.' I just try to be firm and say, 'Talk to the doctor if you have a problem with that.' "

Mahler is the kind of patient McAfee seeks to develop -- the empowered patient.

"I suggest people get a health partner," McAfee says. "In case you are very ill or in the hospital, someone who would come in and advocate for [you]. Put things in writing: Have a form that is basically a patient history form, with bullet points for what you want out of the visit."

McAfee's own health form has the following statement: "Lectures on the dangers of obesity and the value of weight reduction are not appreciated."

Better than The Lecture, McAfee argues, is a doctor who focuses on treating the conditions associated with the patient's obesity.

She believes in telling doctors to "spend your energy being creative about how to help me right now. What can you do if I can't get imaging right now; if we're dealing with my diabetes right now and I can't lose weight?" Or as the authors of the article about the sensitive treatment of obese patients recommend, "Focus on the person, not the obesity."

There is just one problem with this reasoning, according to Caroline Wellbery, a family physician from the District. "Preventive care includes treating obesity," she says, "and obesity is the underlying problem."

Asking doctors to accommodate obesity is one thing. Asking them to look past it is something else entirely, and goes against every aspect of their training.

In courses on obesity, doctors are urged to bring the subject up even during appointments unrelated to weight problems. To do otherwise is, according to many doctors, to fail the patient.

"I see these people marching into terrible dependency," says Barzel. "They are not going to be able to take care of themselves. The care that they require is huge. The drain on society is going to be much, much bigger than lung cancer was. . . . Just like smokers, overweight and obese patients do not seem to recognize -- or they deny and suppress the notion -- that they are likely to end up in a state of serious ill health and a lifelong dependency on others."

If anything, the medical establishment worries that overweight patients aren't hearing the "you-need-to-lose-weight" message often enough. A study of more than 1,200 physicians that appeared in the journal Preventive Medicine in 1997 found that doctors dealing with obese patients "did not intervene as much as they should, were ambivalent about how to manage obese patients and were unlikely to formally refer a client to a weight loss program."

It is not clear where the happy medium is. On the one hand, you have patients like Mahler, who demand that the system change to fit her: "You need to have a table that can hold somebody, even somebody who weighs 500 pounds." On the other hand, you have doctors like Wellbery, who suspect that accepting the fat may actually contribute to the problem. "Think of smoking," she says. "The negative connotation helped curb the habit."

And yet everyone agrees something is wrong. "When occasionally I have a patient who lost a lot of weight," says Barzel, "I am happy like a kid who has found a toy. But it is so rare. The fact is, we all talk about it, but while we all talk about it, society gets heavier and heavier."

Giving Doctors a Hand

That last point is indisputable. And so is the reality that even the most sensitive doctoring is not going to solve America's obesity problem. Solutions, many experts believe, will also have to come from outside.

Barzel, for example, having all but given up his own efforts to cajole patients into losing weight, says that doesn't mean there aren't other ways to get through to those patients. "The only things that work, at least partially," he says, "are programs like Overeaters Anonymous or Weight Watchers. But these are not medical interventions."

Indeed, some in the medical profession say doctors should recognize that counseling patients on obesity is not a burden they need to shoulder alone. Susan Yanovski, who directs the obesity and eating disorders program at the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases, contends that many physicians may not have the necessary expertise anyway. She suggests that many physicians would be wise to refer obese patients to programs that emphasize nutrition and physical activity.

"I don't think physicians need to do it all," she argues. "Not every physician is going to be an expert in counseling their patients in weight management. I think what every physician and health care provider can do is serve as a resource and coordinator of care. I don't see anything wrong with physicians referring their patients out to other programs."

Still, because obese people need to see doctors and because doctors will continue to worry about the weight of those patients, ways are being sought to improve interactions between the two groups.

For frustrated patients, there are support groups -- "fat-friendly" organizations like the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance, which has urged doctors treat obese patients "with gentleness, tact and concern. Remember that many fat people have had years of negative experiences with health care providers, and some have been denied treatment, or given inappropriate treatment, because they are fat."

For frustrated doctors, the National Institutes of Health has issued a handbook for clinicians that covers everything from how to diagnose diseases associated with obesity to ways of getting their patients help outside the medical system. (And yes, there is advice on being more sensitive to their patients.)

"All physicians are now treating obese patients, from the pediatrician to the geriatrician," Yanovski says. "More education will come through workshops by professional societies, articles in medical journals, Web-based continuing education and training for clinic staff -- from the doctor to the receptionist."

Yanovski cites a study from 1998 and a more recent, not-yet-published one by Tom Wadden, an obesity expert from the University of Pennsylvania, showing that obese patients are beginning to report increased satisfaction with their medical care. The preliminary findings, she says, show that "fewer patients have been reporting negative interactions with their doctors regarding their weight than had been reported in previous studies."

This change, she says, may be partly a product of new discoveries that point to biological and genetic causes for obesity. "There is less of a perception that this is just a matter of willpower," Yanovski says.

And that, in a sense, is all that patients like Mahler are asking for. "People who are obese crave what anybody else craves," she declares, "which is just respect and dignity."

Meanwhile, Back at the Zoo . . .

Respect and dignity. It sounds straightforward, but not when you're being told to call the zoo to book an MRI for a patient. I later learned that I would not have been the first to do so. Sharon Deem, a veterinarian at the National Zoo, says she receives calls from doctors all the time trying to get humans in the animals' MRI.

It turns out, however, that the zoo's MRI is not large enough to accommodate humans or other large animals.

The better option is an open MRI, a relatively new type of imaging machine that does not include the narrow, enclosed tunnel of other models. Designed primarily for children and patients who are extremely claustrophobic, the open MRI can also solve the size issue for obese patients, although the image it delivers provides generally lower resolution. Open MRIs are becoming more available, especially in and around major metropolitan centers.

As for my own patient who would not fit: Her condition improved quickly enough that she no longer needed that MRI, so I never did call the zoo on her behalf.

The truth is, I'm not sure how I would have told her she needed to go to the zoo.

They just don't teach you that one in medical school.•

Ranit Mishori last wrote for Health about the care that patients receive in teaching hospital in July, when new residents arrive.

[Lisa N]

I believe the reactions are more complex (exist in more dimensions) than a "calm to rage" scale can measure.
For example, male human abusers adopt one of two main strategies - call them "ogres" and "cobras".

Well...I was talking about normal, non-abusive, non-pathological personalities here as far as range of reactions go and I'd also like to point out that the above (true abuse) is an action, not a reaction. Abusers don't need a reason to abuse, nor do they usually do it in response to some aggrivation (although they may claim one, either real or imagined, as justification for their abuse) they do it because they find pleasure or a thrill or some other form of gratification from it such as a feeling of control over the victim. They have pathological pesonalities and as such, I wouldn't consider them the norm as far as range of reactions goes.


Um, he not only admitted that his penis had shrunk, but also that his wife complained, and that yet another shrunkage operation was coming. I'd say any one of those would tend to put him in a poor light

Put him in a poor light? I fail to see how, other than as a male being open about something very personal (something that in a male could be interpreted as a weakness in this society). All of those items he "shared" make him appear the victim and his wife the victimizer; "poor me...I had a childhood injury and needed surgery to correct it and now my penis is smaller and my wife is complaining about it and that with more surgery coming up!" Nor is his wife being given any chance to correct his version of the story...you only get his side (remember what I said earlier about there being 3 sides to every story?).

Interesting article, although it has been posted before in the Research/Media Watch forum. It seems to underscore everything that a lot of us have already said: lecturing and belittling don't work even when they come from someone whose advice and opinion most people respect and should be objective: their own physicians. Instead of motivating people to lose the weight, it causes them to avoid the doctor completely to avoid the humiliation that they have come to expect from such visits and because of that their health suffers.

[Lisa N]

Hello? Love can evolve from a meeting of the minds, as well as meeting of the libidos....But for longevity in a relationship? Go for the fun and companionship, rather than the lust.

I agree. Not that there isn't any place for lust and libido in a good marriage or that there is anything wrong with either of those, but what are you left with after the passion fades if that's all you had to begin with? If all you had was lust to begin with, the marriage won't last long after that lust wanes because then you will have to deal with the real person underneath it all and you may not find that as attractive as their body once you get past the lust and start relating to the person underneath.

[TarHeel]

No, that's merely the normative way. I concede exceptions are possible - Anna Nicole Smith, for example, married for money.

Ya know, Gotbeer, I've really tried to be reasonable. And non kaboomish. But I'm having some problems understanding why you seem to get so much pleasure out of insulting people.

Kay

[PoofieD]

My ex wife told me before our wedding that she felt like she was marrying the michelin man


Okay Sinbad, can you tell me what is so wrong about the "michelin man"? Cause I am really not getting it :-)

[gotbeer]

http://www.adage.com/century/graphics/icon_michman.gif

The Michelin Man.

[Iowagirl]

Hey baby! I'm liking those rolls.

[gotbeer]

Tarheel - no insult was intended. Indeed, I was agreeing with you.

[Sinbad]

Okay Sinbad, can you tell me what is so wrong about the "michelin man"? Cause I am really not getting it :-)
More her negative connotations and the tone she took than anything... "YOU ARE GETTING FAT AND I DON'T WANT TO MARRY A FAT PERSON" was what she was really saying

[JudyMH]

Unfortunately people just tend to gain weight as they age. I was 110 when I married my husband 25 years ago. He has never said anything at all about my weight gain. He was 140 pounds when we married, I have never said a thing about his weight gain. We'll never get to our previous weights and I don't think that is our goal. You have to love your partner unconditionally. He may have an accident and lose the use of his limbs, or have a heart attack. There are no absolutes in life. I think this guy is shallow, he's not thinking of his wife just himself. Judy

[Nibby]

Hmmmm........30 pounds? My friends brother told his wife before they got married he would divorce her if she gained weight!
I told my friend to tell his jerk of a brother he better be prepared to get some hair plugs with all the male pattern baldness in thier family so he has that nice mane he had BEFORE they got married that she has come to enjoy running her fingers through. They just had a baby and I'm curious to see if he keeps his word and divorces her for not loosing those post baby pounds.......
People get a little fatter at times, they loose hair, skin sags, things change as you age. What if his wife had breast cancer and had a breast removed? What if she didn't get a replacement?
My husband is as handsome to me as the day we were married. He finds me just as attractive. If you go into a marriage expecting everything will stay the same then you shouldn't get married period. Its a long fall off a high horse and the ground is mighty hard I tell yah:0)

Nibby

[tara&sam]

I didn't read the original link posted that started this all, because it asked me to log in to something... so I'm not sure if he was being mean about it or not. Generally, though, I think physical attraction is an important part of a healthy relationship... not ALL of it, of course, but a PART. It doesn't necissarily mean the person is shallow, it just means they are more attracted to certain kinds of bodies. Sam, for example, can't stand very very thin women (which I like very much about him :D). When I pointed to one of these women on tv and said 'I wanna look like THAT', he said that he'd still love me and stay with me, but that sex would be out of the question... he just wouldn't find me attractive.
I don't think asking your partner to lose a bit of weight is a very bad thing.. so long as it's done without hurtning the other person's feelings. I know a lot of women (myself included.. and probably men, too) are sensitive about weight and their appearance, but I don't think a spouse or partner should pretend that they will always be physically attracted to the other person no matter what if that isn't true.
However, I also think that everyone's own body is their own business. If you want to lose weight to make yourself more attractive, good. If you're happy with your body and not willing to change it for someone else, your partner will have to accept that, and continue loving everything else about you.

[Klodo2]

My friends brother told his wife before they got married he would divorce her if she gained weight!How much does her husband weigh? Because right there is some dead weight she could very easily get rid of. :rolleyes:

[idontno]

i am a guy, if she gets fat and you love her it just more to love on, kinda different anyway, id still love her.
lose and gain forever what ever. he musta never loved her anyway. her falt for landing a bum. lol

[gotbeer]

The happy couple:

http://images.ibsys.com/2004/0112/2758557.jpg

[potatofree]

Gotbeer-- ROFLMAO... I wondered why someone has ressurected this thread, now I see. You had to have time for the research!